From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Tue May 9 11:23:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21644 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 11:23:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Message-ID: <20000509180815.8273.qmail@web2206.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.178.180.226] by web2206.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 09 May 2000 11:08:15 PDT Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:08:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Cory Current Subject: [footbag] Contact Foul dilemma To: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hi Everybody, This list has been quite dead for a while, so I'll open up an issue for discussion. There recently arose an issue of contact fouls at East Coast Regionals. This occured during a doubles match. Player C spiked the bag at the net, I went up to block/defend. When we came down, there was a contact foul on my side of net, *underneath* the net. Now, I've been through the on-line version of the IFC (IFAB??) rulebook, trying to settle this matter. At first notice, the on-line version says it's the 1996 version, which means it's quite outdated. I'm sure there have been issues at the IFAB meetings over the last 4 years, so I'm assuming somewhere out there, someone has a copy of an 'up-to-date' version. Here is what I've dug up so far: ****************************************************** ARTICLE III, FOOTBAG NET 303.02. General: A. Live Footbag: The footbag is considered "live" beginning with the moment of contact by the server, and is considered "dead" as soon as the footbag touches the ground or anything beyond the court perimeter, drops below the net without going over it after a player or team has used the maximum allowable number of kicks, or a foul accurs, whichever comes first. Note: A Net Equipment Foul supersedes all other fouls, and may occur after the footbag would otherwise be declared dead (see 303.08-C). 303.08. Fouls: If a foul is committed by the serving team, the result is a side out. If a foul is committed by the receiving team, the result is a point for the serving team. Except for delay of game, a foul may only occur while the footbag is still "live" (See 303.02-A). C. Net Equipment Foul: When any part of the body touches the net, the guide wires of the stanchions, or the stanchions themselves. For the purposes of a Net Equipment Foul, a point lasts 3 seconds after the footbag has been declared dead (according to 303.02-A). D. Net Plane Foul: When a player touches the opponent while breaking the plane of the net (above or below the net). ***************************************************** so, according to these rules I've listed, the bag is dead as soon as it hits the ground, and the only thing that supersedes a dead bag is an equipment foul. (keep in mind this is the rule as of '96, if it has changed or has been modified, I'd like to know) Since day 1 of my playing net, I've always played by the rule that if there is contact under the net, then that's a contact foul, dead bag or not. I have *always* played that way, I have been called on that kind of foul many times, and I know that many players out there would call that a contact foul as well. I've talked with other 'seasoned pros', and some agree with me, some do not. I can't seem to get a straight answer. So, I'd like to know....... *Would other players call this a contact foul? *Am I the only 1 that plays this way? *Does anyone have an up-to-date copy of the rulebook, and if so, what does it say? *before my bringing up this subject, how would you have called it? I simply want to play by the rules, and if I'm wrong, then I am wrong. I'd like to know...... thanks everyone. -cory From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Tue May 9 11:49:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21783 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 11:49:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net (mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11224 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 11:41:14 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.174.60]) by mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02017 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:41:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [footbag] Contact Foul dilemma Message-Id: <000002164723040742481@mlerf.org> In-Reply-To: <20000509180815.8273.qmail@web2206.mail.yahoo.com> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle) Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:41:21 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.2.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org On Tue, May 9, 2000, 1:08:15 PM US CST Cory Current wrote: >so, according to these rules I've listed, the bag is dead as soon as >it hits the ground, and the only thing that supersedes a dead bag is >an equipment foul. (keep in mind this is the rule as of '96, if it >has changed or has been modified, I'd like to know) The then-IFAB discussion about this took place - I think - 3 years ago now. Regrettably, a series of computer upgrades, hard drive crashes, and other computer maladies have rendered me unable to search meeting minutes for information about the discussion. But here's what I remember: The then-IFAB voted to allow contact fouls to supercede net equipment fouls *IF* that contact foul caused the net equipment foul. If anyone is not sure about how this works, let me explain: A) A contact foul cannot be called after a dead bag has been declared *UNLESS* B) That contact foul causes the fouled player to make a net equipment foul In case "B", the contact foul supercedes the net equipment foul. In no other case can a contact foul be called after the rally has expired (dead bag). So... if you want to believe that contact fouls 'live' after the play has expired, you must realize that the contact foul only lives within the context of a net equipment foul. If player-player contact occurs after a dead bag, it cannot be called as a foul unless the contact causes the fouled player to commit a net equipment foul. I hope that clears up some confusion about this. It is probably largely my fault that this does not show up in current versions of the rulebook, and I apologize for that. We need some young, literate players that don't have families and demanding careers to take over the production of the rulebook. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle -still studying at the old-school footbag university From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Tue May 9 21:18:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23545 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 21:18:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from pop.scriptics.com (pop.scriptics.com [209.24.201.136]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21839 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 15:55:15 -0700 Received: from pop.scriptics.com (jaen.scriptics.com [209.24.201.135]) by pop.scriptics.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02199 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 15:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200005092255.PAA02199@pop.scriptics.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.2 5/8/2000 To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re: Contact Foul delimma X-URL: http://www.scriptics.com/people/brent.welch/ X-Face: "HxE|?EnC9fVMV8f70H83&{fgLE.|FZ^$>@Q(yb#N,Eh~N]e&]=>r5~UnRml1:4EglY{9B+ :'wJq$@c_C!l8@<$t,{YUr4K,QJGHSvS~U]H`<+L*x?eGzSk>XH\W:AK\j?@?c1o Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Cory Current said: > There recently arose an issue of contact fouls at East Coast > Regionals. > This occured during a doubles match. Player C spiked the bag at the > net, I went up to block/defend. When we came down, there was a > contact foul on my side of net, *underneath* the net. Cory is wrong (as was I). Derrick is right. I used to believe that if a player sprawled onto my side of the court under the net that I could touch them and claim a foul. But, it was pointed out that if the footbag was already dead then no foul could occur. So - you gotta kick them quick - its a tough call. -- Brent Welch http://www.scriptics.com Scriptics: The Tcl Platform Company From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Tue May 9 23:30:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24348 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 23:30:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from field.videotron.net (field.videotron.net [205.151.222.108]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA31160 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 23:09:34 -0700 Received: from [24.201.10.106] by field.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8) with ESMTP id <0FUB00KN1YFUD8@field.videotron.net> for footbag@footbag.org; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:09:31 -0400 From: Martin Cote Subject: [footbag] The Hung Ball In-reply-to: <000002164723040742481@mlerf.org> To: footbag@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hi all! I just wonder lately what Hung is up to. Is he still making some weird new balls to replace someday the venerable net bag as we know it. I wish something will come out of this. I kind of like the 1999 Hung ball. The idea was to have something between the regular net bag and the takraw ball. I talk to Sebastien Verdy this winter about footbag and Takraw. He said, while in Thailand he came up with the idea of chalenging takraw player in a one on one game in the park. This guy love to bet on a game and he tought he might have an edge if he would play one on one, since these guys only know to use inside kicks and heads. The local crowds seems to enjoy that kind of game. You know there's probably so many good level net players out there, even somebody with Sebastien skills, feels like an intermediate over there. But not in a one on one game. The only problem, he said was that in order to cover the terrain you would need to use outside or back kicks. But the takraw ball is too bouncy to make predictable outside kicks or back kicks. We were there wondering what would happen if somebody would come out with the perfect mix of a takraw and a footbag. A ball that would keep the same shape after months of playing, just like a soccer ball or a tennis ball, A ball big enough that would be good to film, and probably be easier for novice to have fun with (i think novice have more fun with a takraw than a footbag around a net). I personnally wouldn't mind having something a bit more bouncy than the regular net bag, but it has to be bigger too and not too heavy. That's why the Hung ball looked interesting to me. This would help the singles net game. It's too bad nobody wants to play singles anymore. You hear intermediates and some pros saying it's too hard to play, and they're right. Singles net is a hard game to play, espacially if you want to do any kind of spiking. It's so much easier to set and spike in double. But again, i think we need to make this game easier to play and one way would be to have something easier to control. With a bag with more bounce in it, it should be easier to set it to the net and make anykind of attack. So Hung, have you come up with something new this year. Have you improved over last year version. I think this sport need something new. On the other side of the footbag community, freestyle is on a roll. You go to the freestyle jam session at worlds and you see twenty new faces each year that can shred like mad. The level these guys are up to is amazing compare to the net game. I see new freestyle players poping from everywhere but i can't say the same for net. And i just wonder why. There's probably many reasons for that. Freestyle is more friendly for novices, all you need is yourself and a bag and so on... but i don't think it's because it's easier. I'm glad to see that at least one footbag flavor is catching on. I just imagine what would the net game be if 50000 people would play reguraly instead of a thousand. An amazing game like the worlds(97) singles net final in Portland between Shultz and Mulder, would be the norm. That's it! I'm done. So Hung, or anyone else, if you come up with something, let me know. Martin Cote From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed May 10 09:34:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA25917 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:34:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from press.ripcity.com (press.ripcity.com [199.2.204.9]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16081 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 08:41:13 -0700 Received: by press.ripcity.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 10 May 2000 08:41:19 -0700 Message-ID: <5A255F90CA1AD211BA1400104B93712E02771712@post.ripcity.com> From: Steve Dusablon To: "'footbag@footbag.org'" Subject: [footbag] Foul Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:41:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org It seems to me that according to the rules you stated, the call depends on whether or not it was your opponents last kick or not. The rule says that the bag is dead if it falls beneath the level of the net and you have used up your allotted amount of kicks. So if you were playing doubles and they dug, then set, then hit it below the level of the net, the bag is dead... right? From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed May 10 11:09:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA26168 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:09:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from www.ckynet.net (ckynet.net [63.198.110.234]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21648 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:02:18 -0700 Received: from ckynet.net (cky-home-pc.ckynet.net [192.168.200.2]) by www.ckynet.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA06563 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3919A470.80AD72B9@ckynet.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:03:29 -0700 From: Christopher Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Western Regionals and net sets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hey kickers, the Western Regionals Footbag Tournament is coming up (memorial day weekend May 27th to the 29th) and it is time to put a call out for net sets. It is not unusual for there to be as many as 150 competitors at a Westerns so we really can't have too many net sets on site. If you plan on attending the tournament and are capable of bringing a net set please RSVP to me so I can account for your contribution to this glorious event. Net sets will be marked with masking tape to identify their owner and the lines will not be required as we will, in standard tradition, be painting the court lines the Friday before the tournament. Spread the word and hope to see you at the tourney, /cky From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed May 10 13:34:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26464 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:34:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net (mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25070 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:17:23 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.174.60]) by mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA16900 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:17:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [footbag] Foul Message-Id: <000002179243040831051@mlerf.org> In-Reply-To: <5A255F90CA1AD211BA1400104B93712E02771712@post.ripcity.com> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:17:31 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.2.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: footbag@footbag.org ('footbag@footbag.org') MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org On Wed, May 10, 2000, 10:41:16 AM US CST Steve Dusablon wrote: >the bag is dead if it falls beneath the level of the net and you have used >up your allotted amount of kicks. So if you were playing doubles and they >dug, then set, then hit it below the level of the net, the bag is dead... That should be right. I know there is a possibility of a contact foul getting nixed because of the dead bag. In your example, the third contact is a glancing contact that propels the bag below the netline. At that point, the bag is dead, but the players are still in the air jousting and a contact foul could occur over the net after the bag is officially dead. I don't think our rules adequately address this. Maybe making a contact foul as durable as a net equipment foul is the answer. The 3 seconds for N.E.F.'s was instituted because it was a totally quantifiable thing. The 'real' thing that the 3 seconds is trying to approximate is the 'momentum of the play'. It was probably a mistake to try to quantify what the momentum of the play really is in terms of seconds - 3 seconds is a lot of time. My personal apinion is that we should replace the '3 second' rule with the real 'momentum of the play' rule and include contact fouls as lasting as long as that momentum of the play. Then we'd have to hash out exactly how the hierarchy of importance works between contact and N.E. fouls. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle Foundation Computing Services Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation Heartland Lions Eye Banks From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Fri May 12 10:01:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02100 for footbag-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 10:01:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from mailcity.com (fes-qout.whowhere.com [209.1.236.7]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA19064 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 09:05:33 -0700 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Fri May 12 09:04:35 2000 To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:04:35 -0500 From: "Mike McCarthy" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: m.mccarthy@mailcity.com X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [footbag] injury X-Sender-Ip: 209.12.75.98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org In a doubles match, team #1 player (a) is injured and can no longer play the match. Is the match over or can player (b) find another partner? Mike From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Fri May 12 14:10:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02825 for footbag-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 14:10:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from www.oregoncoast.com (www.oregoncoast.com [204.176.109.2]) by mail.oregoncoast.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 13:43:35 -0700 Received: FROM pent500 BY www.oregoncoast.com ; Fri May 12 13:43:32 2000 -0700 Message-Id: <4.1.20000512134052.00a2e800@in.oregoncoast.com> X-Sender: aardvark@in.oregoncoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:45:51 -0700 To: footbag@footbag.org From: "Kevin J. Courtney" Subject: [footbag] Footbag in the Comics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hello, Footbag made it in the Oregonian newspaper's comics today. It's one I think we all can relate to. You can see it at.... http://www.eaardvark.com/Footbag_Comic.gif ...how many times have we heard that in a job interview? If you have problems viewing it, please let me know. Kick on, Kevin Courtney From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Sat May 13 12:59:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA05743 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 12:59:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from www.ckynet.net (ckynet.net [63.198.110.234]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32481 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 15:18:37 -0700 Received: from ckynet.net (cky-home-pc.ckynet.net [192.168.200.2]) by www.ckynet.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA03690; Fri, 12 May 2000 15:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <391D568D.36EAA462@ckynet.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:20:13 -0700 From: Christopher Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: m.mccarthy@mailcity.com CC: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] injury References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Mike McCarthy wrote: > In a doubles match, team #1 player (a) is injured and can no longer play the match. Is the match over or can player (b) find another partner? I'm glad you asked Mr. McCarthy. According to the Official Rules of Footbag Sports (seventh edition) section 303 (Rules of Play) subsection 02 (General) article D (doubles) 1st paragraph: http://ifc.footbag.org/article-3.html#303.02 "Players will not be allowed to subsitute for any reason once their first match of the tournament is in progress." So the answer is no. Regards, /cky p.s. Get the hell out of Santa Fe P.P.S. [inserted by List Moderator] Please examine the wealth of info on http://www.footbag.org and http://ifc.footbag.org/ before asking questions on the list. Thanks. -Steve From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Sun May 14 11:57:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11533 for footbag-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:57:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from mailcity.com (fes-qout.whowhere.com [209.1.236.7]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA13030 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:36:17 -0700 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Sun May 14 11:35:36 2000 To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:35:36 -0700 From: "Hung Chang" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: hungchang@mailcity.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [footbag] The Hung Ball X-Sender-Ip: 209.247.143.54 Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Thanks Martin and others for your interest in the "hung" ball and yes there is a new version of the ball. For those on the list who never heard of the "hung" ball, the idea is basically to create a synthetic version of the net bag to create a consistent standard. (similar to the synthetic takraw ball replacing rattan balls). This means no break in, consistentcy in weight, rebound, spin, it's also cheaper to produce, etc. Increase in size will help the visual aspect and possibly rebound accuracy, especially for the toe surface. I think eventually the synthetic ball idea will happen. But it's tough for players who been kicking a bag for a long time to want to switch to something different. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed May 17 23:14:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA31912 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 2000 23:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f From: Thehuff1@aol.com Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22543 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 20:03:19 -0700 Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v26.7.) id z.e4.507de8a (4442) for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 08:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:32:45 EDT Subject: Re: [footbag] The Hung Ball To: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 106 Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Using a footbag is what makes footbag unique , versus other games/sports, and footbag net in particular was never started as a takeoff or modeled after Takraw. So why start suggesting it now? A machine made ball for footbag is merely a novelty, as was the Proton "footbag" of the past. A footbag has character that a ball will never have, and is the reason that this game & sport can be played successfully by people of all ages for fun. Even a tournament quality footbag is useable for a novice. If tournament footbag players really want to have a consistent footbag to choose from, why not petition the IFC to determine a higher standard for that footbag, than what is already a part of the official rules to date? Defining the cover material, filler/pellet size, number of panels, and weight, could solve the issue of whose footbag to use for a match. If it was a question of a patented design being chosen by the IFC, then possibly a sewer could be certified & pay a royalty to the designer. Having a hand sewn , certified/sanctioned tournament footbag would be a great honor to the manufacturer's , and the players, that support this young sport of footbag. Becoming certified to sew/make this footbag would be a personal honor, as well, and mean a source of income for many, versus turning on a machine that would take more jobs away. The quality of the athlete's skills in tournament footbag net and/or freestyle is at such a high level that I can see why a higher standard should be considered, and why a ball idea has been suggested. But, hopefully, there are other ways to elevate the sport, such as by promotion of what a great sport it is, and by teaching it to the public by the tournament players. Pass it on !! Ted Huff, Co-Director, Footbag Hall of Fame Historical Society From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Thu May 18 21:39:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04876 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 21:39:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15677 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:04:43 -0700 Received: from 208-58-212-16.s270.tnt1.lnhdc.md.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.212.16] helo=assistant) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12sRqv-00048L-00 for footbag@footbag.org; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:04:45 -0400 Message-ID: <006c01bfc0d9$e7de3940$f0aefea9@assistant> From: "Matt Quint" To: References: Subject: Re: [footbag] The Hung Ball Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:01:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org OK, I certainly haven't been around the 'footbag community' for much of the whole 28 years of its existence, but I have been playing net for a good 5 years now and I offer my support for Hung's efforts. Those of us who are 'committed footbaggers' are a weird and passionate bunch. Our sport is HARD! Put a soccerball in front of someone and while they may not be able to nutmeg someone on the first try at least they get some immediate success. See the ball, kick the ball, watch it roll along the ground. This kind of 'instant satisfaction' is true for most sports. Even for something like tennis or hitting a baseball, control of the 'hit' may take practice, but making contact and watching the ball fly is relatively easy. When starting in our sport it is...kick the bag once, pick it up off the ground, kick the bag once, pick it up off the ground, etc. Is it any wonder why lots of kickers grew up playing some soccer, so they already had some practice with the difficult foot-eye coordination needed for footbag and didn't become immediately frustrated. And all of the above is for a soft and pliable 'freestyle bag'. Converting the basic skills to the stiffer 'netbag' is another difficult task which requires much more practice. Add to this the 'seemingly crazy' leaps and jumps that make the net game exciting and most people take one look and say, 'I can't do that.' Hence, the development of a 'netbag' that is a bit easier to control and to see, i.e. a bigger bag (although no bigger than a tennis ball) seems like a perfectly reasonable idea to explore, to me. In fact, the recently stitched netbags have been slightly bigger, and I have certainly enjoyed the extra control that has brought to our games here in DC. However, for whatever reason (extra tension from the larger size and weight?) all of the larger netbags have 'burned out' quickly. At $40 a bag I don't really want to have to use 2 or 3 a year (not to mention the time it takes just to 'work in' a new netbag). On top of this, according to our good friend Vince Bradley, there is only ONE person in the world regularly stiching netbags right now (correct me if anyone knows that this is incorrect). Don't get me wrong I love the 'art' and 'feel' of the netbag, and I don't want to radically change what is a wonderful and tightknit sport and community. However, I've got no problem supporting the experimental development of a 'ball' that would be easier to produce (how many hours does it take to make one good netbag 4? 6? 8?), 'ready to use', a bit cheaper, and overall easier to play with as a novice kicker. I was kicking rainbows in my local park this week and some of the inner-city DC kids came up saying 'how do you do that?' I was surprised and excited that they had any interest at all. Unfortunately the only answer I can give them is practice. Now, they might not be able to do a deft cross-over dribble after seeing Michael Jordan do it, but at least they can TRY to immitate it immediately. I had a pretty soft netbag with me (unfortunately no freestyle bags, although they'll be with me next time) and after about 5 minutes of kicking it (and picking it up), they quickly gave up and began playing catch with it instead. There's something great about the small size and close community that the sport of footbag has, and that we all know that kickers have real passion for it, because otherwise they wouldn't maintain the patience to practice the sport until it becomes fun. And I certainly don't need any radical changes, but in my opinion, if there is ever going to be a real push to make the net game grow, it will have to be easier to follow as a fan, more consistently played overall (there's maybe 40-50 players in the world who play consistently 'error-free' and set-spike-dig net games - i.e. I'm not one of them yet), and a bit easier to pick up as a beginning player. Feel free to agree or disagree, but that's my $0.02 Regards Matt Quint Q@footbag.org Here's to a world full of listening and understanding. From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Thu May 18 21:42:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04888 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 21:42:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: (qmail 14786 invoked by uid 60001); 18 May 2000 20:09:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20000518200916.14785.qmail@web2204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.178.180.226] by web2204.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:09:16 PDT Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:09:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Cory Current Subject: [footbag] The Hung Ball To: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hey Everybody! Ted Huff wrote: >Using a footbag is what makes footbag unique , versus other games/sports, and >footbag net in particular was never started as a takeoff or modeled after >Takraw. So why start suggesting it now? ........The quality of the athlete's skills in tournament footbag net and/or >freestyle is at such a high level that I can see why a higher standard should >be considered, and why a ball idea has been suggested I don't believe that Hung ever intended for his ball to replace the conventional net bags used to date. I think it was started as a 'cheap alternative' to the expensive $30 bags. (chime in here, Hung, if I'm off the mark) >why not petition the IFC to >determine a higher standard for >that footbag............. >If it was >a question of a patented design being chosen by the IFC, then possibly a >sewer could be certified & pay a royalty to the designer.............. >Becoming certified to sew/make this footbag would be a personal honor, as >well, and mean a source of income for many, versus turning on a machine that >would take more jobs away. these are all novel ideas, but last I heard, there was only 1 person on the planet that was even sewing net bags. So putting all these 'restrictions' and 'certifications' on bag-makers would be pointless at this time. This 'Hung Ball' might be one of the only alternatives that net players have in the near future. Unless some new sewers come out of the woodwork, or some 'veteran' sewers come out of retirement, we may be running out of netbags completely in the near future. my $.02 -cory From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Sat May 20 21:00:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14605 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 2000 21:00:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from web119.yahoomail.com (web119.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.120]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21188 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 08:59:14 -0700 Received: (qmail 24391 invoked by uid 60001); 20 May 2000 15:59:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20000520155922.24390.qmail@web119.yahoomail.com> Received: from [154.5.118.225] by web119.yahoomail.com; Sat, 20 May 2000 08:59:22 PDT Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:59:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Lavigne Subject: [footbag] the hung ball To: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Greetings to all from cold Quebec There are a few issues in this debate that I have yet to see be raised so I will mention them now. If we are to compare ourselves and the sport of footbag to any other sport, the first issue we must address is bag consistency. The idea that a net bag has to be broken in is a problem in the first place. The "official" footbag should be ready to use off the shelf, and all bags should remain fairly similar throughout their life. That being said, most players tend to agree on what makes a good bag to play with, but using a radically different bag in two consecutive matches (one hard and fast, the other big and slow), would significantly affect a players game, and the type of game he plays, not to mention the effort needed to get it accross the net. We all need to learn how to play with the same kind of bag, this levels the playing field. As for the cost, a premium quality volleyball, basketball, or soccer ball, used in elite compettitive circles, all cost about the same as a good footbag, and are used for about as long. A cheap hockey stick costs 30$, and some poeple (amateurs) I know break one per game. So, wether the bags we adopt in the future are hand made or not, big or small, we must normalize them, and maybe tighten the rules and specs about the footbag. Could you imagine a major league pitcher lookind at the umpire and saying: "...no that's o.k., I've got my own ball." As for the difficulty of controlling a footbag, maybe we could find a way to have different grades of bags made for beginners, and a smaller court, like singles badminton dimensions, could be used for novice competitions. Other than that, get back to work, drill those basics, and stop complaining. send all hate mail to bob@footbag.org thanks Bob From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Sat May 20 21:00:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14610 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 2000 21:00:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net (mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09203 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 09:17:31 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.174.60]) by mailrelayerformercurymailsites.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02521 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 11:17:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [footbag] Funky Chicken Sightings Message-Id: <000002274603041597871@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:17:51 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.2.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: footbag@footbag.org Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org The Funky Chicken will be in Seattle, WA from Sunday, May 21st thru Thursday, May 25th. I'll have a few evenings free. If anyone wants to kick with me, please email me. I'll also be in Atlanta, GA June 5th thru the 8th and in Washington DC June 21st thru 24th. I'd love to get in a little kicking time. I'd especially love to hobnob and swap stories with any old schoolers out there (grin). ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle Still studying at the Old School Footbag U From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Sat May 20 21:00:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14615 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 2000 21:00:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from dbotkin.hampshire.edu (quincy-ip-15-215.dynamic.ziplink.net [209.206.2.215]) by valinet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23661 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 00:11:45 -0400 Message-Id: <200005200411.AAA23661@valinet.com> Reply-To: From: "Daniel Botkin" To: Subject: [footbag] Hung Ball, Hung Jury Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:11:35 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Nothing like a discussion of how to reach the masses with footbag to bring me out of my cave... > Matt Quint wrote: Those of us who are 'committed footbaggers' are a weird and passionate bunch. Why thank you, Matt... Really though, for me it's significant not simply how hard or easy our sport may be for beginners to pick up (and hence to learn, practice and spread) but also the paradigm by which we teach and spread it. I don't think many of us would argue that a sport, our sport (or any discipline) ought to necessarily be easy or offer instant gratification in order to have attaction, value or sticking potential with the public. Despite the inherent challenges of footbag for rank beginners, most of us have witnessed plenty of rank beginners having success, fun and total engagement (as well as the opposite) - even the first time out! I personally think a modified net bag WOULD provide a reasonable stepping stone or alternative game for beginning players (and/or youth, elders, etc.). However, the more important point is this: How we teach, share, present and promote the sport/game of footbag is more significant to it's ultimate impact and popularity than the shape or size of the ball. I came to footbag late (29) never learned to shred and only achieved marginal skill in the net game. I never developed a spike, but instead learned to beat younger, better players on serves and digs. I won some regional (intermediate) titles and totally loved my 12 years as a competitor. Now I'm 43 and limited to occasional kicks by injuries, single parenthood and other life responsibilities. But this is what I believed a decade ago. My views aren't about sour grapes. In fact, I truly hope to see the (incredible) competitive angle of footbag grow and flourish both in the alternative and mainstream sports worlds. However, what's most unique about our sport, what makes it truly different from other sports is the intrinsically cooperative, universally compelling nature of the original circle game. There are hundreds of sports and games which test every sense, skill and body part. There are many which cultivate team (vs team) play. But footbag is highly unusual in that it can instantly, uncannily draw the focus and effort of almost any group of disparate players creating a single, team consciousness united toward a common goal. Thus, in a mixed circle, the newbie kicker merely has to make contact and keep the bag alive for someone else in order to succeed. Her success becomes the group's and vice versa. This is why the rank beginners I initiate have immediate gratification and thus reinforcement to continue. This is why thousands turned out to play with us in the streets of Central America, when we did the "footbag peace" tours in the late 80's and early 90's. Not to see me shred. =-) Footbag is already a "popular" sport. That's its nature. We needn't concentrate any effort on making it that way, but rather celebrate it and develop it as such. Kick on. Pass it on! Daniel Dog Footbag Peace Initiative http://www.valinet.com/~dbotkin > Here's to a world full of listening and understanding. From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Sun May 21 10:50:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17538 for footbag-outgoing; Sun, 21 May 2000 10:50:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f From: Ted Huff Received: from imo-r20.mail.aol.com (imo-r20.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.162]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA30812; Sun, 21 May 2000 09:37:40 -0700 Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-r20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id z.6b.48bdb14 (4442); Sun, 21 May 2000 12:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6b.48bdb14.26596ab7@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:37:11 EDT Subject: Re: [footbag] the hung ball To: bob@footbag.org CC: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 106 Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Yes sir, I do think that the players have brought the sport to a high enough level, that I am surprised that the IFC & WFA have not been bombed with a mandate before now, to make a higher standard for tournament footbags, especially for footbag net !! How else will the footbag manufacturers, such as the makers of the Hacky Sack brand ever consider raising the standards of what is available?? And, therefore respect that the players are serious , and worthy of their taking charge of what is a real sales/market opportunity !! Make what the players want. Is there that few sales of /for tournament footbags that no one sees this as a market? To be catered to , before a manufacturered ball becomes the only alternative to filling the need? I think that unless the sport adopts higher standards for the footbag used in tournament play, other potential vendors of products specific for footbag, such as a shoe company OR clothing manufacturers, will never take the sport seriously enough to help sponsor the growth of this sport. So, the answer is that the tournament players need to take charge of this , before anyone else takes their message seriously. Unseen, untold, unsold. This is too good of an athletic sport in net or freestyle for it to keep getting such a lack of public & media respect ! Certainly, the IFC, WFA & the webmaster can only do so much to make this a reality. It's up to the players to make it happen for themselves. It might be fun to take that ride !! FootbagHallofFame@footbag.org From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed May 31 03:16:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01263 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 03:16:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (root@diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA32189 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 11:24:16 -0700 Received: from default (madmax-144.sfsu.edu [130.212.201.144]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21197 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000901bfca63$ec7002c0$90c9d482@default> From: "Tu Vu" To: Subject: [footbag] What's happening to footbag??? Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:21:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org I NEVER write to the list. But i feel there is some serious decline in the sport of footbag that should be addressed. I went to the southern california championships about a month and half ago and there was barely anyone there, it looked like some of the small venue east coast tournaments I went to 6 years ago. This past weekend, I gaze around at the western regionals (supposely the biggest tourney in North america besides worlds) and it's a mear shadow of what it usually is. what happened to all those people who used to fly across the country and canada (there was only like 3-4 from canada)? 71 competitors is a big number but not when it is constantly over 100 competitors in the last 5 years. I think my biggest worry is with footbag net. It seems to be going seriously downhill mainly from older players retiring and not enough interest from younger players to fill in those gaps. Its to hard to get good in net without having the ability to train with better players. I also hear complains about the actually bag itself being too small to play with. new models of netbags that are being developed are larger but loose there touch as smaller sizes. It seems that people around tourneys these days are looking tired. Exposure has seems to be laging in recent years. We used to try at least try to get media to pay attention to our events but without support to hard working (thankless jobs of) tournament directors exposure from outside sources has not been a priority. I used to love going to tourneys like Montreal and portland that had stands packed full of spectators watching the net finals because sites were geared to high exposure. People were excited to hear the involvment of adidas and mattel taking interest in our sport but those ventures soon faded as those companies loss too much money. In the end, none of what i said really matters as long as *everyone* is still having fun, I just don't want to see our sport fade away in the background. Tu From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed May 31 08:16:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02416 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 08:16:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f From: Ted Huff Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28516 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:20:13 -0700 Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id o.39.5bd4d4c (4159); Wed, 31 May 2000 02:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39.5bd4d4c.266608ac@aol.com> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 02:18:20 EDT Subject: Re: [footbag] What's happening to footbag??? To: tuhuge@sfsu.edu CC: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 106 Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org boy, this sure hits home to what I thought I saw even 5 years ago !! why is there no exposure growth? The website is fantastic !! The level of play is fantastic ! I think the players have not gotten organized enough to promote themselves as a group ! where is the training coming from to pass it on? tour & demo teams always did create good exposure & support from the retailers. Is there a need for supporting a player's association? there sure used to be!! I'm giving one last try in Portland for 200 u.s. open + supporting trying to honor the players that have made this game. I hope this effort too does not run out of time. Best regards to all the current players. Ted Huff, game & sport co-founder director Footbag Hall of Fame Historical Society From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed May 31 18:48:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04382 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 18:48:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-footbag@footbag.org using -f Received: from press.ripcity.com (press.ripcity.com [199.2.204.9]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14098 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 08:58:32 -0700 Received: by press.ripcity.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 31 May 2000 08:58:02 -0700 Message-ID: <5A255F90CA1AD211BA1400104B93712E02771765@post.ripcity.com> From: Steve Dusablon To: "'footbag@footbag.org'" Subject: Re: [footbag] What's happening to footbag??? Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:57:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org The decline of the sport is real. I have been noticing it for the last 2 or 3 years. As much as everyone seems to want to blame the players for not stepping up, I don't think this is the case. The players are just that, PLAYERS. Our love and dedication to this great game has not changed, our willingness to play and play at high levels has not changed, the bag has not changed, the size of the court, or the height of the net. Aside from a few key retirements, the sport is pretty much the same. I would love to see the players step up and really start promoting the sport into the growth that is it's potential but I think we continue to forget the key fact about the players and that is WE ARE PLAYERS! We are not promoters, salesmen (or women), producers, or event coordinators. Early in the planning for this years upcoming Worlds event, I heard that the Kitsilano folks had hired themselves a PROFFESIONAL promoter whos job it was to get exposure for the event. I thought this was a heretofor unheard of stroke of genius! There are those gifted folks in the footbag community who can put together a tournament with relative ease like Mr. Goldberg or the recently retired Kendall KIC. Promoting the sport takes away from the time you get to actually PLAY the sport. That is the major drawback. I think that it might be sort of silly for each club around the country to hire themselves a personal promoter but maybe the worldwide footbag community as a whole could come up with a way to hire ourselves someone who knows the ins and outs of the promotion business and doesnt have to change out of his/her sweaty shorts to go to a business meeting with Adidas. When I first started kicking and attending competitions, the WFA was still going strong. If there was a central place for our community to send yearly or bi-annual dues, with the incredible number of players we have around the country and the world maybe we could get someone working for us part time whos full time job is to promote at least some of our larger tourneys like Westerns, Worlds, U.S. Open, or Funtastic. I don't know about the rest of you but I would be glad to send in $20 or so to be able to simply play and let a pro take care of getting us the exposure we desperately need. Just a thought, Steve