From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Mon Jul 1 10:26:23 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA21893 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:26:23 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:33:55 -0700 Received: from 207.230.54.84 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 01:33:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.230.54.84] From: "Ian Dubman" To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Footbag sighting Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:33:54 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2002 01:33:55.0265 (UTC) FILETIME=[32A0B310:01C21FD6] Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Black Hawk Down Watch the extra about making the movie on the DVD. A few of the lead actors are kicking a bag on the set. Sweet! Also, I was driving thru Chicago (moving there in 1 month)the other day with my girlfriend. What do I see, some boys kicking in a Gazebo. "wow, hacky-sackers at night I thought, neat." Second glance, they were Frestylers! Nice. I had no shoes (have not kicked in eons), but I grabbed some dress shoes and took off. It turned out to be Zeke and some of his friends (Tommy and Menard). I messed around for a sec, but I was off (no kicking at ALL in over a year and not much in 2 years) will do that. But, I am stoked, I plan to get back in and going soon. I hope to see some of you again soon. Peace. Ian Dubman From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Mon Jul 1 10:29:36 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA22077 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:29:36 -0700 Received: from 10.1.1.15 [10.1.1.15] by th00.opsion.fr id 200206291838.014e; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:38:01 GMT Send-By: 62.147.114.237 with Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98; Win 9x 4.90; FREETELECOM) To: Subject: [footbag] Adidas Nastase for 40 euros From: "Eric Dargent" X-Priority: 3 (normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:38:01 GMT Message-id: <200206291838.014e@th00.opsion.fr> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id LAA02582 Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Hey everybody, A supermarket nearby where I live will have Adidas Nastase (very similar to Lavers) on sale next week. I figured because they’re getting hard to find, and they’ll be cheaper than usual, I could buy a few pairs for those interested. I CAN’T BUY A LOT THOUGH, because I don’t have the money : I will only take the first 10 or 15 orders, and from those who can pay me back in Budapest (sorry for the others, but I don’t wannna be left with a hole in my bank account !). They’ll be 40 euros + shipping (which includes a small profit going to my footbag club). They will PERHAPS have Millenium Nastase as well, which would then be the same price. Sales period starts next Wednesday, so I will just have enough time to buy them before leaving for Budapest (Euro Champs). LET ME KNOW QUICKLY IF YOU WANT A PAIR. If you wanna order a large quantity, maybe we can arrange something with my friends not going to Budapest, and do a bank transfer… That’s all folks, Take it eeeeeeaaaaaaaaasy .eRiC. ericd@footbag.org HACKTIVIST Les Footbaguignols / Lyon From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed Jul 3 14:32:22 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA13491 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:32:22 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:51:07 -0700 Received: from 217.235.23.50 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:51:07 GMT X-Originating-IP: [217.235.23.50] From: "Marc Inzinger" To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] need place to stay Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:51:07 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2002 09:51:07.0854 (UTC) FILETIME=[2779C6E0:01C22277] Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Hey list, this is Marc Inzinger from Germany. I am coming to World´s this year and I hope that somebody could offer me a place to stay in the San Francisco area. I will already be arriving at july 27 and I will be leaving at aug 16. So if somebody could offer me a place to stay for that time or even for some days during that time any help would really be appreciated since I can´t really afford a hotel. Please e-mail me privatly...I won´t probably be able to respond during next week since I will be going to the European Championships Marc From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Mon Jul 15 11:26:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA11515 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:26:27 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 03:17:33 -0700 Received: from 210.55.98.252 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:17:33 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.55.98.252] From: "Simon Hughes" To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Footbag ChatRoom! Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:17:33 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2002 10:17:33.0775 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5B71DF0:01C22BE8] Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Hey Everyone Steve Ramsey an Australian player has created a Footbag Chatroom on his website and all it needs is you in it! :-) Please go to: http://www.hotsac.com (If nobody is in the chatroom, go to footbag messages and post a time that is suitable for you - please add your country) Direct link to chatroom: http://freechat.raidersoft.com/sigmachat.pl?room=19077 -Simon Hughes From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Sat Jul 20 14:41:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA30387 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:41:53 -0700 Received: from I (dhcp212.llic.net [209.125.90.212]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA30384 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:41:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@209.125.90.2 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:41:51 -0700 To: footbag@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [footbag] Jane Jones? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org I know this is something I generally frown upon as moderator, but this time I really need help. I can't seem to find Jane Jones. She hasn't updated her member profile on footbag.org in a long time, and her contact info is out of date (e-mail is bouncing, etc.). If anyone is in contact with Jane, please tell her to update her footbag.org member profile and to contact me. Thanks very much. Sorry for the spam. Steve P.S. Please only reply to me, not the list, and please don't reply unless you have an answer for how to get in touch with Jane (and only if you're sure). Thanks. And don't ask to be removed from the list. Every time I post, someone replies and asks me how to get off the list. If you want off the list, you get out the same way you got in. 'Nuff said. From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed Jul 24 01:31:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA23320 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 01:31:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20020723154531.15094.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.228.225.169] by web12105.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:45:31 PDT Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:45:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Lavigne Subject: [footbag] That's a rap! To: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Greetins to all the footbag community from everyone at AIRTIME productions. We at AIRTIME are very proud to announce that we completed filming of the first complete broadcast quality film about the sport of footbag. Yes that's right, a whole movie about footbag. First a little history. The AIRTIME PROJECT was first announced a couple of years ago when it was still nothing but my brainchild. Time was needed to fund this ambitious project, so time it took to get off the ground. Shooting finally got under way this spring, and now two months and five tournaments later, we go into the editing room. So if noone has heard from me in six months, send a search party... As I now have to sift through over 70 hours of footage coming from up to five cameras at the same time, it is possible that my initial projection of releasing THE AIRTIME PROJECT at World's this year in San Francisco is seeming a little unrealistick right now. However we will work day and night here at Airtime studios to be able to show some kind of advanced screening, or a condensed version, at the host hotel during World's week. Many poeple contributed to the film, and the credits shall acknoledge more extensively everyone who did, but I have to send out early thanks to a few essetial poeple without whom none of what we accomplished would have been possible. First of all the tournament directors and host clubs who put on the events we shot, namely everybody at b.a.f.l., Vince Bradley, Peter Irish and the DC club, Stephan Comeau and the Quebec city crew, and Yves Archambeault, Patrick Asswad and everyone in AQF. All of these events were a great success and provided us with lot's of great footage. Special thanks go out to Chris Ott (I'd give him a job anyday), Rosalie (for going way above and beyond the job description), and everyone who helped out in Montreal, you are to numerous to mention here but you know who you are. By the way that tournament last weekend rocked the kasba everyone, thousands of poeple got to see some awesome footbag matches on a great sunny weekend on the mountain in Montreal. Big ups to everyone involved, I must say that playing in front of three or four hundred screeming fans on center court was the highlight of my footbag career. May it happen again very soon. I hope to see everybody at World's Robert Lavigne AIRTIME productions From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed Jul 24 19:39:43 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA13660 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:39:43 -0700 Message-ID: <20020724143947.38288.qmail@web11502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [165.117.39.38] by web11502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:39:47 PDT Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:39:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] advanced net category Re: worlds registration query To: footbag@footbag.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org i've received a few queries from open players about the value of entering the advanced category, so i'm going to go ahead and respond publicly and probably go down in flames... there are questions posted for the worlds staff at the end. ---------------------------------------------------- I think the advanced category should not have been offered, and I recommend people to enter open if they are overqualified for intermediate. Ain't no "advanced players." Essentially the notion of an advanced category as far as I can tell was created for two reasons, and I think they both suck. One, there are a lot of players who don't anticipate being able to beat top players but who are overqualified for intermediate and therefore Open players. For some reason many of these people don't want the chance to face players like Manu early on in the tournaments, or in their career. To me this robs them of a great chance to learn how to be a stronger player, or to learn more ways to have fun in the game. The top players can simply do the most stuff well, and consistently. Therefore they consistently have the most fun, provided playing something as ridiculously difficult as footbag net is still fun. It is possible that the majority of the outspoken individuals in favor of the Advanced category from this group are actually veteran low rank open players- ones that have been repeatedly abused by the top open players in early rounds, possibly for years, and are now basically whining about it. In some ways this is justifiable- the veterans may realize the best games occur between the closest ranked players and that these games always happen in the later playoff rounds, and they may simply want to save their energies for that. Personally, I don't see why energy can't be saved while playing top seed players (they usually kick my butt rather efficiently); simply play your best game and conserve energy. Tire the big chiefs out for the potential new champions. Make sure they are a champion for a good reason, and that it includes endurance. In the same vein of thought, is the test of a specific rank to be able to win against an equal player while both players are 'fresh', or is to see who can still play at the top of their form at the end of a long tournament- like a champion would usually need to do for a finals match? Second, there are also top players who simply don't want to 'waste energy' playing typically low seed open players if they don't have to. This means fundamentally that they want an easier path to becoming a champion. I don't feel a need to go into this. My thoughts on it are simply you are a champion when you are the final player with the least amount of losses. So you play what you have to, and being a champion playing less games is a lesser champion. My efforts as a statistician for the sport of footbag has always been to try and figure out how to come up with relevant statisitical information to formulate future seeds and to document the efforts of the players as they improve their skills in our international sport. Playoff every position at every event, and see how your rank can rise, or see where it has trouble making the next step to becoming a champion. Event directors who don't think about what it means to run brackets balk at this and say it takes too long. But it actually doesn't take any longer than determining a champion- all the players who lost in any round or won in any round simply play in the next round when winners are already playing anyway to determine a champion. The advanced category superficially can be seen as encouraging players to playoff those final places to determine an advanced champion. My point here is that is it really better to be called advanced champion than 9th, or 17th, or 25th place open? "Advanced World Champion", versus "25th top player in the world". They may end up the same thing. Why confuse the issue by creating another title that might need further explanation? Creating another division that ends up being grouped with members of the other division to me also creates a potential event director nightmare. For once I may be glad I'm not assisting in the running of net events. Optimally, in any tournament, each player in our sport would get the opportunity to play the same number of games as everyone else, with the same opportunity to get good games against relatively equal opponents. This happens when all players from a single elimination bracket play off all positions, and the closest matches occur in the last matches of the play offs per position (same as between 1st and 2nd). >From what I understand of this advanced category, some players will play in Open Pools and others will play in Advanced Pools, and I really can't understand how the number of games are likely to be equal between the two. And then the qualifiers from the open pools move on while everyone else is lumped into single elimination with the advanced players? Are the advanced players in this single elim bracket only the players who advanced from the advanced pools? Does the advanced pool play mean anything? Or do advanced players opting out of the open bracket play less games before entering the single elimination bracket? Veterans, stick with open. New "pros", take your chance to play against the top players in the world. Bad Asses, teach them how to play. I think growth in our sport can only be harder with more divisions. Reasonable goals can be found by valuing each rank in the Worlds ladder... have fun. kick. DIG. SPIKE. roar incoherently. l8r vince From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Thu Jul 25 14:05:16 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA18912 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:05:16 -0700 Received: from Tina (cs24243235-194.austin.rr.com [24.243.235.194]) by sm11.texas.rr.com (8.12.1/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g6PL10Aw005652 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:01:01 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c2341e$69821070$b47ba8c0@Tina> From: "Tina Lewis" To: Subject: [footbag] Great Footbag Net Article in the Montreal Mirror Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:01:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org For great photos and a nice write up about the Montreal tournament go to: http://www.montrealmirror.com/meat/news3.html He describes footbag net as breathtaking! It is. tinalewis@footbag.org From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Thu Jul 25 14:26:18 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA19917 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:26:18 -0700 Received: from Tina (cs24243235-194.austin.rr.com [24.243.235.194]) by sm11.texas.rr.com (8.12.1/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g6PL10Aw005652 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:01:01 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c2341e$69821070$b47ba8c0@Tina> Reply-To: "Tina Lewis" From: "Tina Lewis" To: Subject: [footbag] Great Footbag Net Article in the Montreal Mirror Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:01:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org For great photos and a nice write up about the Montreal tournament go to: http://www.montrealmirror.com/meat/news3.html He describes footbag net as breathtaking! It is. tinalewis@footbag.org From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Fri Jul 26 11:09:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28756 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:09:27 -0700 From: "Paul Vorvick" Received: from bert.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.227] helo=bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Y5OT-0004y6-00 for footbag@footbag.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:44:33 -0700 Received: (from nobody@localhost) by bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g6QDiXA26512 for footbag@footbag.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:44:32 -0700 To: footbag@footbag.org Reply-To: holyx@ix.netcom.com Subject: [footbag] Freestylers Playing Net!?!? dogs and cats living together... Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 192.216.181.131 Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Yes, I've seen it happen with my own eyes - most recently at the US Open. And it's even more likely to occur when we set up: ALL NIGHT NET This year at the Beaver Open we are striving to set up the ultimate GLOW NET COURT! Steve Dusablon and Dr. Dave "Flyhigh" Bernard will be leading the CRASH!! If anyone out there has done this before, we'd like to hear from you - or even if you haven't acutally done it, but have suggestions, please contact me directly at paul.vorvick@merant.com ALSO: If anyone has ANY Proton Footbags they would like to donate/trade/sell to the Beaver Open, PLEASE contact me. For more information on footbag's oldest running tournament, go to: www.footbag.org/events/show/1026144270 CRASH A NET AT NIGHT! V From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Fri Jul 26 11:09:05 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28740 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:09:05 -0700 Message-Id: <200207261809.LAA28740@llic.net> Received: from [64.228.225.191] by web12107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:43:27 PDT Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:43:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Lavigne Subject: [footbag] masters division???? To: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Kewl Idea Scott, just one question: are canes and walkers allowed? Now on the ADVANCED issue... Now someone correct me if I am wrong but didn't we have trouble filling up the categories we had last year? It is my humble opinion (right) that adding categories will just add headaches and they will eventually have to be reseeded into the open div. I don't want to come off as negative but if we all spent as much time and energy selling our sport as we do trying to better it from the inside when we already love it, then we might need to add divisions cause what we need is more poeple, not more divisions. So everybody, sell, promote, hell even scream it from the rooftops: Footbag rules! (and the darkside rules footbag...) Bob See y'all @ World's From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed Jul 31 12:00:10 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA19631 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:00:10 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:48:49 -0700 Received: from 209.150.44.92 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:48:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.150.44.92] From: "Spartan Giordano" To: footbag@list.footbag.org Subject: [footbag] High School Footbag Class? Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:48:49 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2002 18:48:49.0645 (UTC) FILETIME=[E89169D0:01C238C2] Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Does anyone know of any instances where footbag was taught in physical education class in High School. I am particularly interested in situations where there was an actual teacher, not just people going off to kick on their own. Also, if anyone could pass on information about past and present groups of travelling footbag players who do demonstrations at High Schools that would be great. Thanks and Cheers, Spartan From owner-footbag@list.footbag.org Wed Jul 31 20:18:47 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA11583 for footbag-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:18:47 -0700 Received: from computer (reston-ip-206134-199.dynamic.ziplink.net [206.15.134.199]) by valinet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA20942 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:16:09 -0400 Message-ID: <005501c2390c$a9fcc120$c7860fce@computer> From: "Daniel Botkin" To: References: <200207312226.PAA30807@llic.net> Subject: [footbag] teaching footbag in high school Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:36:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-footbag@list.footbag.org > Does anyone know of any instances where footbag was taught in High School? I've taught footbag for 17 years in schools in New England, both as a subject, per se, and as a "hook" or starting point to engage and motivate "hard to reach" students. I'm shameless in my pedagogical exploitation of our beloved sport as well as the related sewing craft. I frequently toss a footbag around as a "talking object" during class discussions. As a sexuality/AIDS prevention educator in the 90's I often incorporated the metaphor of a kicking circle to shed light on relevant themes like non-verbal communication, power sharing/discrepancy, collaboration between strangers, motivation, learning and teamwork. I've also had periodic success over the years getting PE teachers to incorporate basic kicking instruction into their regular curriculum. (It's often an uphill battle having to first divest them of all the old negative stereotypes.) And, in numerous after-school and mentoring groups, Ive found that nothing compells and bonds a groups of disaffected kids like sewing their own bags. Here's a bit of the rationale and curriculum I've used but, really, I just make it up as I go. http://www.valinet.com/~dbotkin/mentor.html http://www.valinet.com/~dbotkin/peerviol.html Peace, Daniel Dog