From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 18:54:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01852 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:53:40 GMT From: ptlovern@siu.edu Received: from ptlovern@siu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (1824) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01822 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:52:24 GMT Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA31014 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:52:23 -0700 Received: from JStanley.cchs165.jacksn.k12.il.us ([207.63.225.50]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id NAA15302 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:51:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971007140026.006899d0@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: ptlovern@saluki-mail.siu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:00:26 -0500 To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] The 2nd Annual Chaos Outdoor Footbag Festival was a Blast! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Greeting to all footbag lovers, I am glad to report that the 2nd Annual Chaos Outdoor Footbag Festival was an awesome event. A major highlight was the first round of freestyle, which was held in the middle of the Carbondale B-BQ Pig out. Our freestyle competitors got to thrill a crowd of over 500 people. It was pretty smooth. We were invited back to perform at this event for at least the next two years, so we are pretty excited about it for next fall already. It can only get bigger and better. Hopefully see ya sooner than that. Here are the results; Open Singles Net 1. Allen Petersen 2. Steve Smith 3. P.T. Lovern Open Doubles Net 1. Allen Petersen and Steve Smith 2. Davie Piper and P.T. Lovern 3. Will Guyette and Tim Shepard Open Freestyle 1. Scott Davidson 2. Joe Marshall 3. Allen Petersen Womens Freestyle 1. Val Davidson 2. Kris Johnson 3. Krista Medek Intermediate Singles Net 1. Mike Voightmann 2. Cory Current 3. Clarence Evans Intermediate Doubles Net 1. Mike Voightmann and Corey Current 2. Captain Chaos and Anthony Mehok 3. Clarence Evans and Jeremy Keller From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 18:48:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01771 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:46:12 GMT From: ptlovern@siu.edu Received: from ptlovern@siu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (9173) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA09171 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:23:14 GMT Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA11916 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:23:23 -0700 Received: from JStanley.cchs165.jacksn.k12.il.us ([207.63.225.50]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id IAA62296 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:23:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971008083140.006966fc@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: ptlovern@saluki-mail.siu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:31:40 -0500 To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Oops I made mistake in the CHAOS results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org I would like to note a mistake I made in the results of the The 2nd Annual Chaos Outdoor Footbag Festival. Brief and to the point here it is: Intermediate Singles Net 1. Mike Voightmann 2. Jeremy Keller 3. Cory Current 4. Clarence Evans I greatly apologize. Sincerely P.T. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 9 00:23:21 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05174 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:22:38 GMT Received: from awestber@sedona.intel.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (5044) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05042 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:12:18 GMT Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24959 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:12:22 -0700 Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23375 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from highbank (highbank.ch.intel.com [143.182.223.83]) by sedona.intel.com (8.7.6/8.7.3paulmail) with SMTP id RAA42453 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:11:58 -0700 From: Amy Westberg~ Received: by highbank (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/SCDT-RS6000) id AA17584; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:12:03 -0700 Message-Id: <9710090012.AA17584@highbank> Subject: [footbag] Arizona Footbag Tournament To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:12:03 +22305133 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Greetings fellow footbaggers, I just want let everyone know that we are having out 2nd Annual Air-a-Zona Footbag Net tournament January 17-18, 1998. All the details are posted on the website. For those who are interested, I want to get an idea of who would be interested in staying in a hotel which is right across the street from the site. I have called this hotel and spoken with the Sales Manager. It is very expensive to stay in Arizona during January because that is when all the people come from cold climates to play golf. She is willing to give a rate of $119/per night ($20 less than regular cost) which includes a free breakfast and three free coctails per day. There is a hot tub and swimming pool. The location is perfect because it is within walking distance of the site. I have room at my house for a few people and Heather Muggleton has room at her house as well. I think that space will run out soon so let us know if you are planning on staying in a hotel or at one of our houses. (ASAP) Hope to see you all here!!!! Amy From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 01:09:04 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05560 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:08:37 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4633) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04631 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:35:57 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23317 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:28:43 -0700 Received: from coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00998 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:28:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.5) id SAA10167; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:28:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:28:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: footbag listserve Subject: [footbag] footbag progeny Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Just a bit of personal news: With all the rivalry amongst footbag parents trying to arrange future partnerships for their offspring, Derrick and I decided the negotiations were getting too complex. We decided the only reasonable course of action to get our daughter Grace a doubles net & freestyle partner was to produce one ourselves. She should meet her future partner some time around May 10 (which is causing much havoc with the Heartland Regional plans) I won't be seeing much of any of you next year, as I've decided to take the year (or more) off from competition. But I'll continue to keep up-to-date as possible by lurking on the lists. Okay, everyone, go back to discussing real footbag issues. (Thought I'd save Steve the trouble ;) Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 01:09:04 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05561 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:08:37 GMT Received: from awestber@sedona.intel.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (5480) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA05478 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:03:37 GMT Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24575 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:56:23 -0700 Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28855 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from highbank (highbank.ch.intel.com [143.182.223.83]) by sedona.intel.com (8.7.6/8.7.3paulmail) with SMTP id RAA53957 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:56:07 -0700 From: Amy Westberg~ Received: by highbank (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/SCDT-RS6000) id AA31583; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:55:59 -0700 Message-Id: <9710150055.AA31583@highbank> Subject: [footbag] Hotels for Phoenix Tournament To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:55:59 +22305133 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hi Y'all I checked into Motel 6 in Scottsdale. Rooms for 2 adults is $61.99/night. This is much better than the other hotel I found. The number is (602)946-2280. I looked into a couple of other hotels around the area that are more like suites, and the lowest price I got was $109. I found some that are like apartments that you can have several people in and they run about $150 for 6 or so people. If anyone is interested in any of these options, let me know and I'll send you the information Hope to see y'all here in January. Amy From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 17:27:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01436 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:26:58 GMT Received: from dbotkin@valinet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (1037) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA01035 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:51:12 GMT Received: from toby.valinet.com (toby.valinet.com [206.98.218.4]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01364 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:51:12 -0700 Received: from dbotkin.hampshire.edu (ppp26.valinet.com [206.98.218.55]) by toby.valinet.com (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA05553 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:52:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199710151652.MAA05553@toby.valinet.com> Reply-To: From: "Daniel Botkin" To: Subject: [footbag] Showcasing Creative Footbag Sewing, Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:40:45 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Attention Footbag Lovers: I'm going to scan and post a free, revolving, public "gallery" of other artists' unusual and original, handsewn footbags, for the admiration and enjoyment of internet travellers. Sack Makers: please send me (or email) photos of your own favorite, custom footbag creations. Please share this information with anyone who makes fat footbags, especially those who are not online. Wouldn't you like to show off your fine work for footbag connoisseurs worldwide?! Please shoot your bags closeup... Send photos to 400B Main Rd Gill, MA 01376. Dan Botkin FOOTBAG PEACE INITIATIVE online. ( http://www.valinet.com/~dbotkin/ ) From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 21:32:43 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03803 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:32:23 GMT Received: from demaster@sprintmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3560) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03558 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:12:12 GMT Received: from mailgate32 (mailgate32-hme0.a001.sprintmail.com [205.137.196.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05427 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:12:14 -0700 Received: by mailgate32 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA21075; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:12:09 -0700 Received: from sdn-ts-002cocsprp09.dialsprint.net(206.133.165.44) by mailfep4-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) id Q_10.1.1.10/Q_19136_1_344531a5; Wed Oct 15 14:12:05 1997 Message-ID: <344523DF.7C97@sprintmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:13:19 -0700 From: Dorsey DeMaster Reply-To: DeMaster@sprintmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SI300A02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] original hackey sack Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org I have an original sack from 1972/3. Does anyone know what its worth? From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 16 16:51:05 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA01127 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:48:20 GMT Received: from wfa@worldfootbag.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for announce@majordomo.footbag.org (491) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00489 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:30:06 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16829 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:30:07 -0700 Received: from [206.175.98.96] (hdn88-096.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.98.96]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00483; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:29:58 GMT Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:29:58 GMT X-Sender: wfafootbag@m4.sprynet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <344523DF.7C97@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DeMaster@sprintmail.com From: World Footbag Association Subject: Re: [footbag] original hackey sack Cc: footbag@footbag.org Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org On Wednesday October 15, 1997 at 8:37 am you wrote: >I have an original sack from 1972/3. Does anyone know what its worth? We just had a customer special order a new 1976 Haiti two-panel from the sports largest collector (Greg Cortopassi) and he paid $25.00 plus $3.50 for shipping charges. This may give you a yard stick for pricing the value of your '72/'73 model. Keep it in the air, Randy Nelson/WFA From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 24 19:37:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01996 for footbag-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:36:08 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (1656) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01654 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:44:31 GMT From: Hung Chang Received: from relay3.smtp.psi.net (relay3.smtp.psi.net [38.8.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13944 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:44:32 -0700 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay3.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id OAA11694; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00948; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:46:22 -0700 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA877718631; Fri, 24 Oct 97 11:29:58 PST Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 11:29:58 PST Message-Id: <9709248777.AA877718631@ca.slr.com> To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hi all net players, I got an idea for singles net. The idea is to play singles net on a singles Badminton court, 17' x 44', instead of the current 20'x 44'. The reasoning behind this is as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DRAWBACKS OF SINGLES USING CURRENT FORMAT intermediates - lack of rallies, one-back strategy effective due to players' lack of good basics to control the bag, players that attempt to play the set/place or set/spike game often loose again one-back players. open women - lack of spiking, long rallies for top women players, fast groundstroke and consistency rules, one-back strategy mixed with set-place strategy. open men (bottom half) - not much spiking, some one-backs, short rallies, points won by unforced errors, placement/passing shots open men (top half) - fast court coverage, placement shots essential, one-backs needs to be offensive and well placed, conservative spiking. Spectators - bored by short rallies, lack of spiking and digging --------------------------------------------------------------------- THINGS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IMPROVE FOR SINGLES intermediates - easier to get rallies going open women - encourage spiking open men - more digging and spiking instead of placement shots, longer rallies Spectators - want to see more spiking and rallies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUGGESTED SOLUTION. Use 17'x44' court (singles badminton court) Possible Effects of new format - Smaller service return box - Decrease the advantage of server - Easier service return. - Narrower court makes placement shots and one-backs less effective - Players are more motivated to set and spike Advantages of using the 17'x 44' court format - Follows singles badminton court (no effect on indoor courts) - Easy to add singles lines to existing outdoor courts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- How to add singles lines to existing court Make two lines of 44', add nails to each ends and center, plant the lines 1.5' inside of the outside lines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- So, please, test out this new court format with players in your club. Give your legs a chance to adapt to the narrower court. Also, I would like to hear your comments or any suggestions regarding this narrower court for singles. Hung Chang BAFL Mountain View BATL (bay area takraw league) From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 24 21:44:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA02902 for footbag-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:43:39 GMT Received: from tinalewi@onr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2482) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02480 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:50:01 GMT Received: from sierra.onr.com (sierra.onr.com [199.1.90.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16397 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:50:03 -0700 Received: from onramp7-1.onr.com (TINA.mlo@onramp7-1.onr.com [199.1.90.235]) by sierra.onr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27088; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:50:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <34510A48.649434CE@onr.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:51:20 -0500 From: Tina Lewis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hung Chang CC: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <9709248777.AA877718631@ca.slr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org I kinda like that singles and doubles net tend to be different games. (and yes....I CAN SET and SPIKE). I also like getting grief for banging it back, people underestimate my skills and it keeps them off guard and frustrated. There's nothing like a well placed bang, it can be far superior and harder to get to than a spike. The length of the rally can be short or long no matter whether you set and spike or bang back and forth. I'm also too lazy to measure out some other lines but we might give it a try as I'm getting a little old to be running all over that big court. (I'll still bang it back when its my best shot!) Tina. ;-)))) From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 24 23:14:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03540 for footbag-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:14:33 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3331) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03329 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:49:20 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA18109 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:49:23 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id pa083137 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:58:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Message-Id: <000000437402960578375@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:52:55 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: footbag@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org On Fri, Oct 24, 1997, 3:51:20 PM US CST Tina Lewis wrote: >frustrated. There's nothing like a well placed bang, it can be far >superior and harder to get to than a spike. Even at 17ft width, a fast one-back will still be an effective weapon. You don't see Kenny setting and spiking every shot, regardless of his ability to cover the court like a blanket. I personally would not want to compromise the variety and subtle strategy of net for better spectator appeal, anyway. -- Derrick From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 25 01:30:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04495 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:30:37 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4381) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04379 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:09:39 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19776 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:09:43 -0700 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id VAA00780; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10681; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:12:29 -0700 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA877741788; Fri, 24 Oct 97 18:00:40 PST Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 18:00:40 PST Message-Id: <9709248777.AA877741788@ca.slr.com> To: tinalewis@footbag.org Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re[2]: [footbag] Rule Change for Footbag Net singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Tina wrote: > I kinda like that singles and doubles net tend to be different games. >(and yes....I CAN SET and SPIKE). I also like getting grief for banging >it back, people underestimate my skills and it keeps them off guard and >frustrated. There's nothing like a well placed bang, it can be far >superior and harder to get to than a spike. The length of the rally can >be short or long no matter whether you set and spike or bang back and >forth. I'm also too lazy to measure out some other lines but we might >give it a try as I'm getting a little old to be running all over that >big court. (I'll still bang it back when its my best shot!) Tina. There is no doubt that one-back (also known as banging, bat-back, ping-pong, etc.) is a very effective weapon in singles. Many top players do it. The strategy for one-back is very similar to Badminton strategy. Even with a smaller 17'x 44' court, players who can one-back with accuracy and speed can still utilize their skills, but hopefully it would give encourage players to set and spike more, which is the most entertaining aspect of footbag net. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 25 01:30:59 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04507 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:30:39 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4404) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04402 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:10:25 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net (relay1.smtp.psi.net [38.8.14.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19797 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:10:29 -0700 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id VAA27605; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AB10686; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:12:29 -0700 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA877741790; Fri, 24 Oct 97 18:01:51 PST Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 18:01:51 PST Message-Id: <9709248777.AA877741790@ca.slr.com> To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re[2]: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singl Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Derrick Fogle wrote: >Even at 17ft width, a fast one-back will still be an effective weapon. You >don't see Kenny setting and spiking every shot, regardless of his ability to >cover the court like a blanket. I personally would not want to compromise the >variety and subtle strategy of net for better spectator appeal, anyway. Spectator appeal is only part of reason for the suggested change to 17x44' court. The main reason is to give singles players more incentive to set and spike and promote longer rallies. This would add to the variety of the singles game. Solid one-back shots and good strategies are still required in the narrower court. If you pay attention to all open singles players today, there are many games filled with fast one-backs, good placement shots, but no serious spiking. More spiking would make the singles game more well rounded. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 25 16:18:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00509 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:17:02 GMT Received: from footbag@pp.kolumbus.fi () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (6030) Received: from nina.kolumbus.fi (pp.kolumbus.fi [193.229.0.51]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA06028 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:12:34 GMT Received: from footbag.pp.kolumbus.fi (modem11-7.kolumbus.fi [193.229.55.102]) by nina.kolumbus.fi (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03715 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:12:11 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3451BA96.546A@pp.kolumbus.fi> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:23:34 +0200 From: Justin Sexton Reply-To: footbag@pp.kolumbus.fi Organization: Kolumbus X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-KBUS (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: footbag@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles References: <199710242350.XAA03956@eniac.yak.net.taz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hung wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > SUGGESTED SOLUTION. Use 17'x44' court (singles badminton court) > > Possible Effects of new format > - Smaller service return box > - Decrease the advantage of server > - Easier service return. > - Narrower court makes placement shots and one-backs less effective > - Players are more motivated to set and spike > > Advantages of using the 17'x 44' court format > - Follows singles badminton court (no effect on indoor courts) > - Easy to add singles lines to existing outdoor courts. > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this sounds like a great idea, longer rallies, more spikes & digs!!! This is how most of the players would like to play and most important; this is what the spectators want to see. Here in Finland I have allways focused mainly on the spectators, and let the players follow, and it has worked out pretty well. (Currently over 800 members) I know this would be really a dramatic & big rule chance, and there are propably lot of open net players out there who would not like it, but I think it would a great way of making the game look even better for the spectators and it would also make the game easier for the beginners/intermediates. It would also have some practical benefits, for example the court would take less space, and this would be a great thing for playing inside. All of just don't have a chance to play outside 10 months a year. Justin Sexton, director of Finnish Footbag ass. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 25 18:22:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA00849 for footbag-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:21:49 GMT From: Becca English-Ross Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (718) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00716 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:46:56 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26723 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:46:57 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.166]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAA152 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:48:03 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] suggested rule change in net Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:48:03 -0700 Message-ID: <19971025174802032.AAA152@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hung suggested a smaller court for singles net... It sounds interesting and could improve the game some, however, at worlds the match with the biggest spectator crowd was Kenny and Randy's singles final. The crowd loved it!! Regarding the amount of spiking in women's singles I believe it has much to do with the height of the net not the court size. Most of us cannot see over the damn net and thus it's more difficult to get a strong spike. This coupled with the top women's ability to dig and bang the court makes spiking in singles less effective at times. It's harder for me to set myself playing the women than men in singles because the women tend to push the bag hard to the back line more. Either way my observations are that both women's and open singles games are evolving to be more entertaining for spectators. I see the women working on spiking more and the men have gotten better at digging spikes that their rallies are much longer. peace, becca From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 26 02:07:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA02455 for footbag-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:07:14 GMT Received: from durfduo@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2351) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA02349 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:40:23 GMT From: Durfduo@aol.com Received: from mrin42.mail.aol.com (mrin42.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.152]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA31905 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:40:22 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin42.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA09836 for footbag@footbag.org; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:40:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:40:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971025214011_714925302@mrin42.mail.aol.com> To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hung Chang's idea of a narrower court is interesting - worth trying just to see the difference. I doubt it would create a big change in the game though. P From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 26 02:59:14 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA02621 for footbag-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:59:03 GMT Received: from durfduo@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2498) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA02495 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:15:08 GMT From: Durfduo@aol.com Received: from mrin43.mail.aol.com (mrin43.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA32289 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:15:09 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin43.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA23391 for footbag@footbag.org; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971025221507_1723644038@mrin43.mail.aol.com> To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hung Chang's idea of a narrower court is interesting - worth trying just to see the difference. I doubt it would create a big change in the game though. Perhaps the biggest change would be more bags going out of bounds wide! I don't think intermediates would change their style any. They change when they are ready. Pros would have to focus a little more on placing it long or short rather than side to side. I don't think spiking will increase much. Deep shots would still be as effective and just as tough to set all the way to the net and spike. Unless you're an excellent spiker, spiking in singles is often unwise as it usually leaves you in a poor defensive position. I've smacked many a mediocre spike back deep into an opponent's court for an easy point. The biggest drawback to the idea is definitely the extra lines. You could modify rope lines easy enough but painting two sets of side lines would cause trouble. Sure it works in tennis and I guess badminton but the lines are more permanent than on grass. Inner lines will need repainting more often due to doubles play. And I think the two lines would cause some confusion to a player because they would be fairly close (18") together. I guess you could get used to it. Having separate singles and doubles courts would almost always be ruled out due to space constraints. I guess my last gripe is a biased one - a narrower court would decrease a quicker player's advantage. But I'm still willing to try a narrower court. Using that width to my advantage, Scott Durfee Richmond, VA From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 27 18:09:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01345 for footbag-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:04:18 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (232) Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00230 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:09:38 GMT Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.8.8.Beta2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22829; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:09:12 -0500 (EST) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.8.Beta2/8.8.7) id KAA17139; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:09:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:09:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710271509.KAA17139@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: footbag@majordomo.footbag.org, footbag@pp.kolumbus.fi Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org does anyone really thingk that the finals singles events at any tournament in the last 2 years really needs changes in the game format to make the rallies longer or more interesting? a singles match between any two of the top twenty players in the sport is always a great match to watch. i myself would benefit from a change in the size of the court- i am primarily a digger, and i'm a sucker for bash techniques- but i want to be as good as the players who currently have good matches in finals of major tournaments on the current size courts. any vancuver kickers out there? i'd like to know the opinions of the club housing the net director... mongooz, jooliet? whaddya say? l8r- vince From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 27 20:30:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02113 for footbag-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:29:41 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2055) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02053 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:26:32 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22466 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:26:24 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id PAA28501; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA14609; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:28:25 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA877987579; Mon, 27 Oct 97 12:18:06 PST Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 12:18:06 PST Message-Id: <9709278779.AA877987579@ca.slr.com> To: Becca English-Ross Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change in Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Becca wrote: >at worlds the match with the biggest spectator crowd was Kenny and >Randy's singles final. The crowd loved it!! Once again, this suggested rule change is aimed at improving singles for all players at every level instead of the top five players. Although, I am personally interested in seeing how top players' game would be affected by playing on a 17x44' court. Personally, I have played on the 17x44' court for only five games with one other open player. The initial observation is that it would make placement/one-back players set and spike more. For the set/spike players, their style remains the same. Rallies seems to be longer and number of digs increased. However, much more playing time on the 17x44' court is needed to fully test the new format. >Regarding the amount of spiking in women's singles I believe it has much to >do with the height of the net not the court size. Most of us cannot see >over the damn net and thus it's more difficult to get a strong spike. I agree the net height is one of reason for the lack of spiking in the women's game, but there is huge problem in lowering the net height. The ground strokes would get even faster! It would make one-backs even more effective. (Side note: women's takraw net is shorter than men's, however one-backs are ineffective in takraw due to the ball's flight characteristic.) >This coupled with the top women's ability to dig and bang the court makes >spiking in singles less effective at times. No disagreement here. Therefore, wouldn't a smaller court make spiking more effective and common due to the increase setting opportunities. >Either way my observations are that both women's and open singles games are >evolving to be more entertaining for spectators. I see the women working on >spiking more and the men have gotten better at digging spikes that their >rallies are much longer. There is no doubt players have become better, but players do not play for the spectators. They use the best strategy to win the game. Many players want to play the set-spike style of top players like Sebastian and Menu, but that strategy is often unwise since placement and one-backs are so much more effective. Hopefully, a narrower court would push more players to set&spike and have longer rallies as well. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 27 21:11:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA02357 for footbag-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:10:34 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2171) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02169 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:46:02 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22776 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:46:04 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay2.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id PAA26137; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA15059; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:48:52 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA877988776; Mon, 27 Oct 97 12:37:52 PST Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 12:37:52 PST Message-Id: <9709278779.AA877988776@ca.slr.com> To: Durfduo@aol.com Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Scott wrote: >Hung Chang's idea of a narrower court is interesting - worth trying just to >see the difference. I doubt it would create a big change in the game Thanks for your willingness to try something new. There is a lot of speculation to how a narrower court would play like, but the easiest way to find out is to test it out for yourself. Regarding painted lines, singles are usually played before doubles in a tournament. So you would not have to worry about the painted singles' lines being ruined. I got another better idea for adding rope lines for making a 17x44'court to make it easier on those of you wanting to try this. 1) Measure and mark 1.5' marks from the ends of baselines with a pen. 2) Put nails throught these marks. (singles corner nails) 3) Take the existing corner nails and plant it next to the "singles corner nails" 4) Now you have a 17x44' court. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 27 21:53:54 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA02716 for footbag-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:52:49 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2592) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA02590 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:32:13 GMT Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23555 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:32:14 -0800 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.8.8.Beta2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29920; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:32:08 -0500 (EST) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.8.Beta2/8.8.7) id QAA26630; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:32:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:32:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710272132.QAA26630@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: Durfduo@aol.com, HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Re: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org i'll spread the idea out to the rest of the dc club about the smaller singles courts. i imagine chris seibert will love the idea, but i am anticipating the rest of the dc all stars would opt to pratice in the form that we will have to play in tournament against the montrealers. playing on a small court would definitely avdversely affect our court covering skills. l8r- vince From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 27 22:06:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02886 for footbag-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:06:48 GMT Received: from casey@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2855) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02853 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:05:09 GMT Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24065 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:05:10 -0800 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24665 for footbag@footbag.org; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:04:42 -0600 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199710272204.QAA24665@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: [footbag] Re: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:04:42 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com spoke forth with the blessed manuscript: > I got another better idea for adding rope lines for making a 17x44'court to make > it easier on those of you wanting to try this. > > 1) Measure and mark 1.5' marks from the ends of baselines with a pen. > 2) Put nails throught these marks. (singles corner nails) > 3) Take the existing corner nails and plant it next to the "singles corner > nails" > 4) Now you have a 17x44' court. This is what I thought of at first, but then I thought about the stanchions. They're no longer right at the court boundary, so you don't have an easy stanchion contact rule or a bag-didnt-pass-between-the-stanchions-so-its-out rule. -- Casey Zacek Systems Administrator * Programmer NETCOM Interactive From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 27 23:17:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03452 for footbag-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:17:18 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3353) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA03351 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:12:29 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25307 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:12:32 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id SAA17281; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19457; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:10:35 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA877997301; Mon, 27 Oct 97 14:57:25 PST Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 14:57:25 PST Message-Id: <9709278779.AA877997301@ca.slr.com> To: Casey Zacek Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Re: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Sing Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Casey wrote: >This is what I thought of at first, but then I thought about the stanchions. >They're no longer right at the court boundary, so you don't have an easy >stanchion contact rule or a bag-didnt-pass-between-the-stanchions-so-its-out >rule. Thanks for bring this up. I have already thought about it and here is my suggestion. 1) use the existing stanchions or 2) mark the nets 1.5' from each end with tape. This will be the stanchions. I believe Badminton also use similar method (2) for their singles court. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 27 23:44:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03572 for footbag-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:44:43 GMT Received: from angelab@log.on.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3471) Received: from logon.log.on.ca (root@log.on.ca [205.207.183.29]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA03469 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:23:25 GMT Received: from nt-hermes.log.on.ca(really [205.207.183.230]) by logon.log.on.ca via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 27 Oct 97 18:23:21 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.1.92 1996-Mar-19 #2 built 1996-Apr-17) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:26:11 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: Angela B To: Procrastinator the VIIIth cc: footbag@majordomo.footbag.org, footbag@pp.kolumbus.fi Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles In-Reply-To: <199710271509.KAA17139@rac2.wam.umd.edu> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: angelab@log.on.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Okay, I'm a intermediate net player, a definite user of the 'bang em to death' theory of net and I lose a LOT. That said, in my opinion, changing the size of the court is not a good idea. I don't think it would make anyone's life all that much easier and I think it will make the game even wierder when it comes to setting up tournaments. I don't wanna get better cause the court is smaller but cause I AM FASTER :))) Just my 0.02 On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Procrastinator the VIIIth wrote: > does anyone really thingk that the finals singles events at any tournament > in the last 2 years really needs changes in the game format to make > the rallies longer or more interesting? > > a singles match between any two of the top twenty players in the sport > is always a great match to watch. > i myself would benefit from a change in the size of the court- > i am primarily a digger, and i'm a sucker for bash techniques- > but i want to be as good as the players who currently have good matches in > finals of major tournaments on the current size courts. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 28 00:31:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04098 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:30:58 GMT Received: from casey@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3971) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03969 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:12:50 GMT Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26207 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:12:53 -0800 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25204 for footbag@footbag.org; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:12:39 -0600 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199710280012.SAA25204@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:12:39 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Angela B spoke forth with the blessed manuscript: > > Okay, I'm a intermediate net player, a definite user of the 'bang em to > death' theory of net and I lose a LOT. That said, in my opinion, changing > the size of the court is not a good idea. I don't think it would make > anyone's life all that much easier and I think it will make the game even > wierder when it comes to setting up tournaments. > > I don't wanna get better cause the court is smaller but cause I AM FASTER I don't think it really matters as far as 'getting better' or who is good or whatnot. If the game had always been played on a 17' wide court, you'd already be used to it. Anyway, I don't think the trouble at tournaments would be worth the change, but I haven't tried it (yet), although I might. Problem is that I haven't had much time to play lately. :( -- Casey Zacek Systems Administrator * Programmer NETCOM Interactive From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 28 01:22:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04361 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 01:22:09 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4283) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04281 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 01:09:04 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay3.smtp.psi.net (relay3.smtp.psi.net [38.8.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27018 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:09:08 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay3.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id UAA03146; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23020; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:10:38 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878004477; Mon, 27 Oct 97 16:55:03 PST Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 16:55:03 PST Message-Id: <9709278780.AA878004477@ca.slr.com> To: Angela B Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re[2]: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Angela wrote: >I don't wanna get better cause the court is smaller but cause I AM FASTER >:))) Sorry, but a narrower court would not instantly turn you into a better player. However, it would increase the chance of getting longer rallies. Instead of short frustrasting rallies, longer rallies would help you get more kicks in, making you a better player faster in the long run. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 28 17:36:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01428 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:35:49 GMT Received: from tinalewi@onr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (7598) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA07596 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:04:15 GMT Received: from sierra.onr.com (sierra.onr.com [199.1.90.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA00847 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:04:24 -0800 Received: from onramp7-3.onr.com (TINA.mlo@onramp7-3.onr.com [199.1.90.237]) by sierra.onr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00050; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:05:06 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3455F165.7FC6433D@onr.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:06:29 -0600 From: Tina Lewis Organization: Mueller Law Offices X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Casey Zacek CC: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Re: Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199710272204.QAA24665@gravy.netcomi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Good point Casey. A long time ago in a faraway land..... we used to have Rodlies!! Anyone remember those?? Basically you thread a dowel into the net so that it sticks out above the plane and then you have a post to use for a guideline. As a proponent of the keep it as simple as possible school, this is just another added thing to do but its a solution if you really want to try it out. tina. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 28 18:53:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02057 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:53:37 GMT Received: from cfa@footbagcanada.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (1882) Received: from srv1.reelwest.bc.ca (srv1.reelwest.bc.ca [207.194.197.99]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA01880 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:37:16 GMT From: Scott Milne Received: from chard (unverified [207.194.197.133]) by srv1.reelwest.bc.ca (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:35:48 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:35:48 -0800 Message-ID: X-Sender: cfa@intouch.bc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: footbag@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re: singles court size Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org I've given thought in the past to changing the size of the court for singles but then when I'm on the court it doesn't seem too big to me. I think we would be taking something away from the sport by making it smaller. I agree it is a large area, 440sq feet is a lot of space to cover but as we all know, with a little hustle and all you're basic kicks it's possible. To tell you the truth I'm totally against such an idea, and I'm willing to bet that most open players that have been competing for years would agree with me. I like the notion that our singles court is different in size than all other sports. Thats not the reason I wouldn't want the size changed but I like that unique aspect about our sport. Learning singles on the larger court forces you to become proficient with both sides of you're body, if you're not, you loose. That's the biggest single difference between single and doubles. We all have these up and coming players in our clubs, they can spike 9 feet off the ground and reach 3 feet over the net. Do they win? No, they've spent so much time learning offence that they can't dig a serve or set with their outside left, game over. A smaller court would only make cheating to you're strong side easier. I'd rather see our new players realize that if they want to play with the big boys (or girls) they gotsta' become ambi. Bust a lace, Scott Milne From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 28 18:53:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02046 for footbag-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:53:35 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (1462) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01460 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:38:39 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03261 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:38:40 -0800 Received: from [207.70.66.106] (d106.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.106]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id LAA16811; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:26:51 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:38:06 -0700 To: Hung Chang , footbag@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hi Footbaggers! >I got an idea for singles net. The idea is to play singles net on a singles >Badminton court, 17' x 44', instead of the current 20'x 44'. The reasoning >behind this is as follows. I am not a net player, but a tourney director. I still love net, especially Pro-Am events. Would anyone like to volunteer to come out and help us paint all those extra lines? Oh, and pay for it too? Nets take long enough to set-up now, do you want it to be worse? And striping paint ain't cheap either. (See, I've been monitoring the "quiet" list too) See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 00:57:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04529 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:57:35 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4234) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA04232 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:15:34 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net (relay1.smtp.psi.net [38.8.14.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA09910 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:15:38 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id TAA00566; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10881; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:17:23 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878084081; Tue, 28 Oct 97 15:58:49 PST Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 15:58:49 PST Message-Id: <9709288780.AA878084081@ca.slr.com> To: Scott Milne Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Re: singles court size Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Scott wrote: >I've given thought in the past to changing the size of the court for singles >but then when I'm on the court it doesn't seem too big to me. I think we >would be taking something away from the sport by making it smaller. >I'm willing to bet that most open players that have been competing for >years would agree with me. There is no question that many veteran players have grown accustom to the 20x44' court and adapting to any new changes is always hard. Footbag Net is still quite a young sport. We started by kicking over a volleyball court, than changed to a badminton court 20x44'. I believed we played doubles and singles on the same court mostly out of convenience. My observation of singles today is a lack of singles playing among intermediates, and lack of spiking among open players except the very top players. A narrow court should create more set/spike opportunities and increase rallies. This would be a positive step for all singles players. >We all have these up and coming players in our clubs, they can spike 9 feet >off the ground and reach 3 feet over the net. Do they win? No, they've >spent so much time learning offence that they can't dig a serve or set with >their outside left, game over. I really doubt that these up and coming players would beat a veteran player like yourself just by playing on a narrower court. Good basics are still required no matter what size court you play on. >A smaller court would only make cheating to you're strong side easier. I'd >rather see our new players realize that if they want to play with the big >boys (or girls) they gotsta' become ambi. This is where strategy comes in. Move your opponent around and attack their weak side. Precision in placement is a must. 17x44' is not all that small. There is still quite a lot of room for accurate one-backs and placement shots. Anyways, give the 17x44' a try. It sure give a different feel to the singles game. Let your legs make the decision. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 00:57:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04516 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:57:29 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4032) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04030 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:52:16 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09597; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:52:13 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id SAA23867; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA09949; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:54:22 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878082521; Tue, 28 Oct 97 15:07:33 PST Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 15:07:33 PST Message-Id: <9709288780.AA878082521@ca.slr.com> To: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re[2]: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singl Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Scott wrote: >Would anyone like to volunteer to come out and help us paint all those extra >lines? Oh, and pay for it too? I understand the tournament directors have enough work to do already, however I helped set up nets and paint lines before. I really don't see how painting two extra lines would add any significant cost or time. If ropes were use, conversion would take less than 30 seconds. The real issue is whether a 17x44' court would be more beneficial to all players of the sport and increase spectators' interest as well. To find the answer, try out the narrow court and test it for yourself. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 03:27:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA05715 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 03:27:01 GMT Received: from mongooze@rogers.wave.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (5377) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA05375 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:57:19 GMT Received: from mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca (mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca [24.113.32.4]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12004 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:57:22 -0800 Received: from guitar97.bc.rogers.wave.ca ([24.113.51.39]) by mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca with SMTP id <338026-13591>; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:57:19 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Andy Ronald To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:57:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [footbag] court dimensions X-Confirm-Reading-To: mongooze@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: <97Oct28.215719-0500_est.338026-13591+723@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca> Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org With all due respect I find this discussion meaningless. The game as we know it is well established now. The top players provide exciting matches for spectators and players alike. No one ever said this was an easy game to learn. The so called drawbacks to singles are not related to the size of the court I think rather they are related to the blatantness of making an error in Footbag in general. It is far more obvious than in any other sport I can think of! When we are playing at home we have spectators stop and watch all the time. If they are truly interested they watch in awe. Invariably at this point they are captivated until someone makes an unforced error and only then will they turn and walk away. You could make an endless list of ways to change the game that would increase this aspect or that aspect. eg why not make singles a three hit game or why not lower the net x amount of inches.blah blah blah! Instead of trying to change the rules to accommodate one weakness or another I think that more attention should be paid to how people train and what kind of strategy they employ. As I said the top players already provide good entertainment. Believe it or not these players are not superior human beings, I believe that anyone with time and dedication can reach these levels of consistency! If you really don't like the size of the court or the rules then I suggest you call up Chris Ott, I think he might have the net and court you are looking for. I think that the time has come to start introducing the concept of coaching into our community. To this end I have begun passing my skills on to a few intermediate players here in Vancouver on a more official basis than just being nice enough to play with them(which by the way is not a rare occurrence either). The experience and the positive feedback that I have received has led me to make this offer to any one at any level who might be interested in this. I intend to create a travelling clinic to coach footbag NET to anyone anywhere. This will begin next spring all costs and fees are as yet undetermined and negotiable. In the meantime I will soon be travelling in Mexico where I hope to dwell for the winter and I hereby invite all footbaggers everywhere to join me for a winter training camp. This project will be ready to begin soon after the Airazona tourney so plan your vacation time accordingly! Soon I will be in Mexico scouting possible locations and more updates will be made as plans develop. Thanks Andy ps. sorry if I came down too hard on the rules change idea, nothing personal I just think it is a pointless waste of time!!!!!! From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 06:48:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA06689 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:47:16 GMT Received: from jcobbjim@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (6574) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA06572 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:31:49 GMT From: Jim Cobb Received: from emout35.mail.aol.com (emout35.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14134 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:31:55 -0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout35.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA27583 for Footbag@footbag.org; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:31:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:31:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971029005813_1278982731@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re: singles court size Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Congrats on a superb idea Hung! Only such a good idea could have generated such a varied response.And to think that most good ideas fail to see the light of day. My opinion is that it is a little early to be calling for a permanent change to the game.I agree that narrowing the court might inhibit banging. However, I also agree that it would favor one sided players and make strong side cheating even more prevalent.Also, it would seem to me that the more players can truly set and spike, the shorter the rallies would get.The court is small enough to play THE GAME. THE GAME, gloriously,continues to develop at an astounding rate, and should continue to do so, if we continue to practice. That said, I would like to suggest raising the net on occasion for practice. This could be paired with the (even further reduced?) smaller court size for an interesting developmental game for singles or doubles. Just add a pvc sleeve and six inch extension to a net set. Hmmm... Finally, agreeing that THE GAME needs all the crowd participation we can muster,and admitting that it is not much of an issue for singles(though it would be with the smaller court),and sincetheexcitementisintheair....let's finally free the plane.... And joust to our hearts' content. keepyoeyeonit,Jim p.s. I haven't actually tried them yet but some of those 'skateboard shoes' do look promising,even for THE GAME. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 16:14:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00577 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:12:09 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (449) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00447 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:50:17 GMT Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18467 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:50:16 -0800 Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.143]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.8.8.Beta2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27607; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:50:10 -0500 (EST) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA20181; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:50:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:50:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710291550.KAA20181@rac3.wam.umd.edu> To: JCobbjim@aol.com, footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Re: singles court size Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hey, anyone out there from the colorado club, or montreal club want to voice an opinion on this? i think as a training mechanism a smaller court could be useful to help intermediates develop their set and spike game, but that the level of competition that i and many other pros seem to appreciate would be greatly undermined by the smaller court size. l8r- vince From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 16:52:22 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00856 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:52:14 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (681) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00678 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:29:20 GMT Received: from apollo.sfsu.edu (apollo.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.167]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19020 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:29:21 -0800 Received: from station33.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-233.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.233]) by apollo.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04703; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:28:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971029082126.0069e544@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:21:26 -0800 To: Procrastinator the VIIIth From: Tu Vu Subject: [footbag] Re: [announce] Virginia Classic Net Tournament this Sunday Cc: footbag@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199710171457.KAA15532@rac4.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org At 10:57 AM 10/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hey All > >The Destroyer, Chris Seibert, is hosting a net only tournament at >Van Dyke Park in Fairfax, Virginia this Sunday, November 2. > >There will be competition in intermediate and open levels of play for >singles and doubles net, format to be determined by number of entries. The Virginia Classic is one of the greatest tournaments I have ever been to in my entire life!!!!! It's the only tournament where the winner is dubbed and recieves the unholy ninja blade. I expect to see all you net and freestylers players playing to win the blade! 2 Huge From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 18:59:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02071 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:58:54 GMT Received: from edwinv@hmg.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (1758) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01756 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:25:08 GMT Received: from fw.hmg.com (hmg.com [205.217.46.34]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20762 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:25:09 -0800 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by fw.hmg.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA11286 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:25:14 -0800 Received: from mail.priv.hmg.com(192.168.130.85) by fw.priv.hmg.com via smap (V1.3) id sma010928; Wed Oct 29 10:20:16 1997 Received: from [192.168.130.92] (192.168.130.92) by mail.priv.hmg.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 1.2.2) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:20:32 -0800 X-Sender: edwin.veltman@mail.hmg.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:20:22 -0800 To: Footbag discussion From: Edwin Veltman Subject: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org I for one am against shrinking the singles court. Having recently become an open player, I would really hate for other players to say behind my back, "Sure, he rose to the top ranks of the open players in an amazingly short amount of time, but that's just because the court is smaller and easier to play on". I appreciate Hung's ideas and reasoning, but I believe that the hassles and the reticence of some players to play along would outweigh the slim chance that singles gameplay would improve. I'm not against change, and I'd even be willing to try out a new court size, but what if someone discovered that a 10' x 20' court made for great play? In my opinion, if some aspects of the game would be improved by a smaller court size, but other aspects would certainly suffer, and the whole process may well alienate many players who have trained long and hard with the current setup. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Andy Ronald's got the right idea - if you want to improve the game, improve the player. We've seen in the past that clubs that have gotten good overall results in tournaments are the ones that have regular training sessions. I propose the following for any club to do on the day of their regular kick - encourage players to show up 1 - 2 hours early for training and drills, then use what was learned during the rest of the day. _______________ Edwin Veltman o 0 > /\ / / \/ \ / ` __________________________ The HyperMedia Group, Inc. http://www.hmg.com From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 19:23:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02244 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:23:50 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2194) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02192 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:21:43 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21665 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:21:36 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay2.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id OAA24974; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06532; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:21:14 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878152684; Wed, 29 Oct 97 11:07:18 PST Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 11:07:18 PST Message-Id: <9709298781.AA878152684@ca.slr.com> To: Andy Ronald Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] court dimensions Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Andy wrote: >The so called drawbacks to singles are not related to the size of the court I >think rather they are related to the blatantness of making an error in Footbag >in general. It is far more obvious than in any other sport I can think of! Yes, Footbag Net indeed has a high number of unforced errors compared to other net games. Wouldn't a narrower court help cut back on the number of unforced errors thus increase the rallies? >You could make an endless list of ways to change the game that would increase >this aspect or that aspect. eg why not make singles a three hit game or why not >lower the net x amount of inches.blah blah blah! If I remember correctly, singles did change from three hits per side to two hits per side because three hits give too much advantage as players got better. The main reason behind the narrower court is that I feel the majority of current open players lack spike actions in their singles game due to the wider court. I hope a narrower court would bring out more of that set and spike actions which we enjoy in doubles. The million dollar question is how would a narrow court affect the "pro" players? Would rallies increase? more spiking and digging action? more entertaining to watch? or not much change? The only way to find out is to get these "pro" players to test the narrower court out. Pro player aside, I believe the main benefits of a narrower court would not be for the top 10 pro players but the rest of the open players and intermediates. Anything that would make singles more enjoyable (more rallies, more spiking) for more players would be good for the sport. >I think that the time has come to start introducing the concept of coaching >into our community. Yes, coaching and footbag net classes and lessons would definitely help out players trying to improve. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 19:40:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02408 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:40:02 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2306) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02304 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:28:41 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21798 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:28:42 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id OAA05892; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AB06856; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:31:16 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878153357; Wed, 29 Oct 97 11:21:37 PST Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 11:21:37 PST Message-Id: <9709298781.AA878153357@ca.slr.com> To: Jim Cobb Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Re: singles court size Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Jim Cobb wrote: >My opinion is that it is a little early to be calling for a permanent change >to the game. I agree with you on this. Right now, I am only asking for players to test out the 17x44' court to get feedback. I believe before the ultra rules (2 hits for singles, 3 for doubles) were passed, it was test run in tournaments along with the previously existing format. Maybe some of the veterans can clarify on this. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 20:57:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03025 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:56:53 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (2797) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02795 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:28:27 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22757 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:28:29 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id PAA22719; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA08349; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:30:42 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878156921; Wed, 29 Oct 97 12:20:08 PST Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 12:20:08 PST Message-Id: <9709298781.AA878156921@ca.slr.com> To: footbag@footbag.org, Edwin Veltman Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Edwin wrote: >Having recently become an open player, I would really hate for other players to >say behind my back, "Sure, he rose to the top ranks of the open players in an >amazingly short amount of time, but that's just because the court is smaller >and easier to play on". Once again, a narrower court would not magically turn you into a better player. The player with the good strong basics will beat the player lacking the good basics on the narrow or wide court. The whole point is that a spiking game is more fun to watch and more fun to play than a one-back game. >but what if someone discovered that a 10' x 20' court made for great play? The 20x44' court we have now was borrowed from Badminton. To shink the court, the 17x44' is an nice option since it follows badminton lines for indoor and conversions for outdoor courts is fairly easy. I also believe that adapting to the 17x44' is not much of a problem since serving is quite similar, the backlines are at the same spot. The main thing is to relearn the location of the sidelines. >if you want to improve the game, improve the player. No, if you want to improve the game, you have to change the rules. If you come down the Southbay to play singles, there are many players that can beat you with one-backs and placements, no spiking necessary. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 29 22:01:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03616 for footbag-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:01:21 GMT Received: from greggar@tvfr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3430) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03428 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:47:41 GMT Received: from tvfrmail.tvfr.com (sunny.ci.hillsboro.or.us [206.29.187.6]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24066 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:47:43 -0800 Received: by tvfrmail with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:47:42 -0800 Message-ID: <9FCA8024D298D011914B080009DC46581F9756@tvfrmail> From: "Gregg, Aaron R." To: "'HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com'" Cc: "'footbag@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:47:41 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Edwin said this... >>if you want to improve the game, improve the player. Hung said that... >No, if you want to improve the game, you have to change the rules. I say... slooowwww dooowwwwnnn. I admire Hung's bold statements and his conviction to this whole new net gig. It also adds a wacky new concept to this list...actual discussion. However, I think the whole thing may have gone far enough with Hung's above statement. We could enter a long dissertation on the question of the replay rule improving or destroying football, or the invention of that glowing blue hockey puck thing on FOX. The fact of the matter is you can only change so much while maintaining the true spirit of "THE GAME". Not to say that there isn't room for some possible changes (uh, free the plane) but I'm feeling that some of the reasoning is kind of off. As Scott Milne and Andy Ronald stated earlier, let's work on the basics. Lots o' bitchin' spikes does not good player make. (I'm just jealous because I can't acheive McNeuvers like the Ayatolah, Shitah, etc.) As people get better, so will the games. It's not exciting to watch an intermediate or open player who can spike miss 75% of the bags to their outside left. I don't feel that a smaller court is the answer to our sports world wide recognition break through. It's players spreading the word and reaching out. I still can dazzle people with my four different 3 add moves because they don't know any better. The same goes for net, if people dig the whole concept, they will stick with it. If not, it's there loss. I apologize for this big long ranting and raving. My sincere thanks Hung for stimulating us all. -aaron (I will try it out for fun) From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 01:04:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04950 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:04:05 GMT Received: from mongooze@rogers.wave.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3788) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03786 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:25:19 GMT Received: from mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca (mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca [24.113.32.4]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24638 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:25:20 -0800 Received: from guitar97.bc.rogers.wave.ca ([24.113.51.39]) by mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca with SMTP id <338257-13592>; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:25:11 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Andy Ronald To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:25:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) Re: [footbag] court dimensions X-Confirm-Reading-To: mongooze@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: <97Oct29.172511-0500_est.338257-13592+1200@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca> Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org > Andy wrote: > > >The so called drawbacks to singles are not related to the size of the court I > >think rather they are related to the blatantness of making an error in Footbag > >in general. It is far more obvious than in any other sport I can think of! Hung wrote > > Yes, Footbag Net indeed has a high number of unforced errors compared to other > net games. Wouldn't a narrower court help cut back on the number of unforced > errors thus increase the rallies? > You misunderstood me I did not say there were more unforced errors, I said that the unforced errors were more blatantly obvious. When the footbag hits the ground or when someone shanks a set I think that the visual impact that this has on spectator attention is more pronounced than in most other sports. Not to mention the disruption to the flow of play. However even this flow is controlled by the players' ability to return serve. Probably the most difficult part of the game to learn is service return and a service match is definitely not going to cater to crowd enthusiasm. One might then suggest that we change serving rules to make the game easier for intermediates to get into rallies. This I believe is a negative strategy that in the long run would leave players less able to deal with a hard serve. I think that a similar argument could be made about changing any of the rules to make the game easier. The skills of players have progressed enormously in the past decade. There is no point in short-circuiting that learning curve for short term results. > >You could make an endless list of ways to change the game that would increase > >this aspect or that aspect. eg why not make singles a three hit game or why not > >lower the net x amount of inches.blah blah blah! > > If I remember correctly, singles did change from three hits per side to two hits > per side because three hits give too much advantage as players got better. > my point exactly! > The main reason behind the narrower court is that I feel the majority of current > open players lack spike actions in their singles game due to the wider court. I > hope a narrower court would bring out more of that set and spike actions which > we enjoy in doubles. > > The million dollar question is how would a narrow court affect the "pro" > players? Would rallies increase? more spiking and digging action? more > entertaining to watch? or not much change? The only way to find out is to get > these "pro" players to test the narrower court out. > As I said earlier an endless list could me made involving proposed rule changes does this mean we should test drive every idea that comes along just because someone vocalizes it. > Pro player aside, I believe the main benefits of a narrower court would not be > for the top 10 pro players but the rest of the open players and intermediates. > Anything that would make singles more enjoyable (more rallies, more spiking) for > more players would be good for the sport. > I think that if you looked at the skill level of the top ten players ten or even five years ago they would not compare favourably to the top 20 or 30 players now. As for the future potential skill level I think that todays top five will similarly be the mold for tomorrows top 40 or 50. The skills are being discovered and improved every day, all we need now is the ability to pass those skills along more effectively than the haphazard approach of play and have fun. > >I think that the time has come to start introducing the concept of coaching > >into our community. > > Yes, coaching and footbag net classes and lessons would definitely help out > players trying to improve. > > Hung Chang > I am glad that you agree Andy From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 01:04:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04967 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:04:09 GMT Received: from tinalewi@onr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (3917) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03915 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:42:25 GMT Received: from sierra.onr.com (sierra.onr.com [199.1.90.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24890 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:42:28 -0800 Received: from onramp7-16.onr.com (TINA.mlo@onramp7-16.onr.com [199.1.90.250]) by sierra.onr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12187; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:42:15 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3457BBA5.281F7B1@onr.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:41:41 -0600 From: Tina Lewis Organization: Mueller Law Offices X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gregg, Aaron R." CC: "'HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com'" , "'footbag@footbag.org'" Subject: Re: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <9FCA8024D298D011914B080009DC46581F9756@tvfrmail> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org I too have enjoyed all this discussion but would strongly resist any change in the court dimensions for tournament director reasons as much as personal preference. Regarding the change to the ultra rules we play on now -- I remember it being played as ultra at Intermountain in the early-mid 80s and I can't remember whether we played ultra and old rules brackets at the same time. Also with regard to freeing the plane - its a very attractive rule but technically the plane is free -- you just can't contact on the other side. Its a subtle difference. This rule has been hotly debated and is brought up again and again at IFAB. The main reason for the contact rule is safety - Footbag net is not a contact sport and we don't want any more injuries than necessary - for the sake of the players and the tournament directors. Yes, injuries have been documented from crossing the plane. just a little "history" tina. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 01:04:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04993 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:04:14 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4028) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04026 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:58:04 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F14.hotmail.com [207.82.250.25]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA25116 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:58:06 -0800 Received: (qmail 3753 invoked by uid 0); 29 Oct 1997 22:58:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19971029225806.3752.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:58:06 PST X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: footbag@footbag.org Subject: [footbag] Re: singles court size Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:58:06 PST Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org If it works in tennis, why not in footbag? DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 01:04:19 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05005 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:04:18 GMT Received: from greggar@tvfr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4383) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04381 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:48:22 GMT Received: from tvfrmail.tvfr.com (sunny.ci.hillsboro.or.us [206.29.187.6]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25828 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:48:09 -0800 Received: by tvfrmail with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:48:08 -0800 Message-ID: <9FCA8024D298D011914B080009DC46581F9757@tvfrmail> From: "Gregg, Aaron R." To: "'footbag@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singles Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:48:05 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Tina said... " technically the plane is free -- you just can't contact on the other side. Its a subtle difference. This rule has been hotly debated and is brought up again and again at IFAB. The main reason for the contact rule is safety - Footbag net is not a contact sport and we don't want any more injuries than necessary - for the sake of the players and the tournament directors. Yes, injuries have been documented from crossing the plane." I concur whole heartedly about the safety factor. I've seen people get hammered by bad contact. I guess my big observation has been that there is no "good" and "fair" way to enforce it without having a net judge. Many an open match have I seen somebody get the shaft on a contact foul. Yes it is your honor but it is difficult to know where your foot is when your going head first into the sod. Suffice it to be one of those necessary evils. A rule for our own well being. -a Not trying to start a new thread here Steve, sorry. From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 03:06:41 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA05906 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:06:30 GMT Received: from iguana04@sprynet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (5307) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA05305 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:01:59 GMT Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA28536 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:02:03 -0800 Received: from newmicronpc (ad75-184.compuserve.com [199.174.200.184]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA24613 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:02:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199710300202.SAA24613@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: [footbag] Re: singles court size Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:17:35 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org [Vince wrote] ... Hey, anyone out there from the colorado club, or montreal club want to voice an opinion on this? ... I think the official singles court size is fun, and it has taken many years to be able to cover enough ground on it. Still haven't got all of it covered yet... When do the standards stop changing? Anyway, I think the best thing about a badmitton court is that you can play indoors on it when it is snowing outside, and if you can find a club with a court, you don't even have to set up a net. :-) I didn't really notice a difference when I played on this size court, but it was definitely quicker...comparable to the difference between indoor soccer and outdoor soccer, or between freestyling on grass vs. freestyling on a tennis court, between...you get the point. Never played net on a badmitton size court outside, so I don't have any opinions there. I'll run the idea by the Boulderites tonight at the fieldhouse and see what they think. I think Dan Zahner is the only one there that might have an opinion...I don't think I've ever seen Daryl touch a net court unless he's stylin' on it, and most Wash Park net players don't make it to Boulder for kicking this time of year. Adios, Jane From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 05:09:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA09419 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:09:30 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (5949) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA05947 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:17:52 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net (relay1.smtp.psi.net [38.8.14.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29437 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:17:57 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id WAA17787; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 158.116.9.16 by dns.slr.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id V7TNM4JY; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:18:24 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878181504; Wed, 29 Oct 97 19:08:15 PST Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 19:08:15 PST Message-Id: <9709298781.AA878181504@ca.slr.com> To: footbag@footbag.org, Andy Ronald Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [footbag] court dimensions Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Andy wrote: >As I said earlier an endless list could be made involving proposed rule >changes does this mean we should test drive every idea that comes along just >because someone vocalizes it. In the past three years playing Net, I really have not heard too many new ideas or suggestions for footbag net. I have given this 17x44' court idea a lot of thought and I would hope all serious net players be open minded enough to at least give it a try. >One might then suggest that we change serving rules to make the game easier for >intermediates to get into rallies. When making rules for any game, you have to satisfy players at all playing level. Don't want to make it too easy for the pros or too hard for the intermediates. The balance is somewhere in between. Of course, making separate rules for intermediates is usually a bad idea. In a 17x44' court, the service box shrinks, possibly making service return easier. As an example, in Badminton the service return box shrinks even smaller by utilizing horizontal lines drawn on the court. Since we use ropes instead of painted lines, having any horizontal lines other than the baseline is out of the question. The singles game right now is a fine game. However, I believe the game could be fine tuned some more. Even if you think it's a bad idea, give it a try. It would be a good learning experience. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 05:09:43 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA09435 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:09:34 GMT Received: from mongooze@rogers.wave.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (6929) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA06927 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:30:50 GMT Received: from mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca (mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca [24.113.32.4]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA30260 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:30:55 -0800 Received: from guitar97.bc.rogers.wave.ca ([24.113.51.39]) by mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca with SMTP id <336132-13598>; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:30:47 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Andy Ronald To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:30:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [footbag] court dimensions X-Confirm-Reading-To: mongooze@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: <97Oct29.233047-0500_est.336132-13598+1450@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca> Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hung Chang wrote > > The singles game right now is a fine game. However, I believe the game could be > fine tuned some more. Even if you think it's a bad idea, give it a try. It > would be a good learning experience. > I am not really trying to comment on whether or not changing the court dimensions is or is not a good idea. Rather I am questioning the reasons for any change at all. I think that many players will agree that you are learning in an environment that includes some of the best bangers in the sport. As you said some players in the Southbay can win consistently, no spiking necessary. These are likely the top players in BAFL you refer to. If you visit other clubs you will encounter different styles. Some are more offensive others are more defensive. Everyone has their own style but clubs tend to mold the players within it. I say don't worry about the quality of play as it is constantly improving and adapting. If you watch Kenny play you will realize how important banging can be. In reality it is a much more basic skill than is setting and spiking. Therefore it is appropriate that intermediates should be playing this way. You need to be good at it to have a complete game. Also I think that such a change would, despite your assurances, constitute more than a fine tuning. In short I do not intend to try playing this way. Other than with my imagination. My idea of a good shot is usually within a few inches of the line. If you want to try a simpler experiment that might have better effect on the entertainment value, try scoring a match with a tennis point system. Often banging is chosen due to a lack of concentration and this can easily occur in the middle or beginning of a long game. Tennis scoring puts much more equal value on each point. Also as Seb and Randy have recently shown us the serve is becoming an even more deadly weapon and the tennis system of service/break removes the threat of pure service matches. Each player gets his chance to serve. An added advantage of this rule is that it makes the let-serve a more reasonable rule.(If anyone cares?) From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 05:09:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA09423 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:09:31 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (5970) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA05968 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:17:58 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net (relay1.smtp.psi.net [38.8.14.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29457 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:18:03 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id WAA17802; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 158.116.9.16 by dns.slr.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id V7TNM4JZ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:18:24 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878181506; Wed, 29 Oct 97 19:12:00 PST Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 19:12:00 PST Message-Id: <9709298781.AA878181506@ca.slr.com> To: Tina Lewis Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re[2]: [footbag] Suggested Rule Change for Footbag Net Singl Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Tina wrote: >I too have enjoyed all this discussion but would strongly resist any >change in the court dimensions for tournament director reasons as much >as personal preference. Maybe you can set up one 17x44' courts at your tournament just to let players test it out. Just to see how they repond to it. Hung Chang From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 17:49:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01525 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:48:20 GMT Received: from rtroxel@ops.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (11397) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA11395 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:59:04 GMT Received: from redgate.ops.org (redgate.ops.org [204.26.70.9]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA02011 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:59:13 -0800 Received: by redgate.ops.org; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA23873; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:02:49 -0600 Received: from localhost by ops.org; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jul97-0529PM) id AA18073; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:04:56 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:04:55 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Troxel To: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Cc: footbag@footbag.org Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [footbag] court dimensions In-Reply-To: <9709298781.AA878181504@ca.slr.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Hung has a good idea--an experiment. that is all. nothing more for you to do than just try it on a court for a game or two and give him feedback on what you think. that is really why he suggested it. just to get some opinions/suggestions from other net players beside those in his area that may have tried the smaller dimension court and have given him some postive and/or negative feedback. give the smaller court a try(like i will this weekend) and THEN tell him what you think of it rather than spectulating (msp?) rye From owner-footbag@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 30 18:38:17 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01994 for footbag-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:38:05 GMT Received: from hungchang_at_bldg2@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (1739) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01737 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:17:15 GMT From: HungChang_at_BLDG2@ca.slr.com Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04993 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:09:25 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay2.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id NAA07199; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [158.116.240.15] by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AC08543; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:11:21 -0800 Received: from 158.116.9.16 by dns.slr.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id V7TNM4JY; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:18:24 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA878181504; Wed, 29 Oct 97 19:08:15 PST Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 19:08:15 PST Message-Id: <9709298781.AA878181504@ca.slr.com> To: footbag@footbag.org, Andy Ronald Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [footbag] court dimensions Sender: owner-footbag@footbag.org Andy wrote: >As I said earlier an endless list could be made involving proposed rule >changes does this mean we should test drive every idea that comes along just >because someone vocalizes it. In the past three years playing Net, I really have not heard too many new ideas or suggestions for footbag net. I