From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 1 13:32:40 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26687 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:32:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22440 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:55:06 -0800 Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA29145 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:51:13 -0800 Received: from [24.205.34.189] (helo=sam) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15z58b-0007G3-00 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:51:13 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c16266$dcff7540$bd22cd18@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: Subject: [freestyle] new vids up on the net Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:50:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I put some videos up at http://www.penny-lane.com/ofv. The site will be updated weekly with new freestyle footage from OOPS! Freestyle. I think you might like to check it out. So far there is new footage of Chad "Big Big Big extra big wooooood" Devlahovich, Chris "The Ghost Pirate" Pinkus, Bryan "I rented an apartment near the shred site for one night just so that I could..." Fournier, and Sam "Snoop DoGG" Colclough. That's double G yo! Sam C to the O to the L to the dammmmn my names way too long for that Colclough *New OOPS site coming soon.* From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 1 13:38:18 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26706 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:38:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA24071 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:01:31 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f112.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.112]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA09888 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:57:38 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:57:38 -0800 Received: from 66.81.53.107 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 04:57:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.81.53.107] From: "andy moore" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Footbag music Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 04:57:38 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2001 04:57:38.0647 (UTC) FILETIME=[BAC70670:01C16291] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all you crazy footbaggers out there hiting insane moves I was just wondering if you guys could help me pick music for my routie next year at worlds all are welcome to reply but "!no Rap" Attach the music if you have it. thank you all very much (MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please think twice before doing something that would violate copyright laws - and don't dare send music attachments to the list!) Funkyfootman out (Andy Moore) urza88@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 1 13:38:53 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26719 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:38:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA24447 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:43:11 -0800 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([65.10.4.236]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011101053904.CZZW25512.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:39:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE0E244.F6983527@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:48:52 -0600 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: derric@dallasfootbag.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: freestyle Subject: Re: [freestyle] Motion Sickness References: <3BC6A6FE@webmail.mscd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Brad Kaplan wrote: > > I feel a need to clear something up about Dyno and Motion. These are not > moves that can be paradox. More or less for the same reason Reverse Whirl > (yes yes it's in dispute) and Barfly are not Paradox. If these moves are hit > from the Op side, they are simply Op side Motion or Op side Dyno. I'm not even going to touch the paradox part of this thread, but about calling these moves "opposite side"... I've heard people calling them "far" moves. So, you can hit a dyno or a far dyno. An osis, or a far osis. If you want to get all crazy with it, you could even call an infinity a far butterfly. So yeah. I like it. I just wanted to throw it out. Sorry I can't remember who I first heard it from (maybe the CIC guys from back in the day?). Anyway, later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 1 13:40:47 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26746 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:40:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26604 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:15:04 -0800 From: emil@os.dk Received: from fepE.post.tele.dk (fepE.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.137]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA20872 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:11:09 -0800 Received: from fepB.im.tele.dk ([195.41.46.145]) by fepE.post.tele.dk (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011101121107.WNER13021.fepE.post.tele.dk@fepB.im.tele.dk> for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:11:07 +0100 To: "Footbag list" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Anyone hit...? Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:11:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Mailer: Opasia webmail (version opasia/3.0.8) X-Originating-IP: 80.62.5.135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: <20011101121107.WNER13021.fepE.post.tele.dk@fepB.im.tele.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by list.footbag.org id LAA26605 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hi list "Dylan Livingston" wrote: > For instance: > > Reverse Sidewalk=Clip-Op Out(DEX)-Plant-Same In(DEX)-Op > Clip(XBD)(DEL) > > ATW Swirl=Toe-Same In/Out(DEX)-Op Back Swirl(DEX)-Op > Toe(DEL) > > Atomic Dyno=Toe-Op Out(DEX)-Op Out(DEX)-Back spin(BOD)-Same > Clip(XBD)(DEL) > (I'd call it Dynomite. Try it Nuclear!) > > Stepping Same Dyno=Clip-Op In(DEX)-Plant-Same Out(DEX)-Back > spin(BOD)-Same > Clip(XBD)(DEL) (I'd call this Shotgun) > > I haven't hit any of these, but they are all possible (I > hope). Try to hit > this stuff! I think it would look cool! > > Dylan Livingston First, thanks for using job's! I know a lot of you is probably fed up with this long way of notation, but for thoes of us who are new, it is the only way to learn! I've hit the "Atomic Dyno", it is the first 5 add I've hit. Its really hard on the knee though. And by the way, could someone tell me what "nuclear" is? And also: "sonic" ? Emil :) From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 1 21:44:59 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA29028 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:44:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27273 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:35:49 -0800 Received: from mailrelay1.chek.com (plotnick.chek.com [208.197.227.116]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id JAA31528 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:31:51 -0800 Received: (qmail 13870 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 17:31:50 -0000 Received: from ninelives.chek.com (208.197.227.14) by mailrelay1.chek.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 17:31:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 29939 invoked by uid 99); 1 Nov 2001 17:29:38 -0000 Date: 1 Nov 2001 17:29:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20011101172938.29938.qmail@ninelives.chek.com> From: "peter bevitori" To: freestyle@footbag.org X-MASSMAIL: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [206.15.253.3] Subject: [freestyle] pixie same dyno? majello? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey all, i've been trying to hit this move for a while and i finally have. so i've been wondering, does it have a name? i've been calling it majello. so if it's just a pixie same dyno or whatever, let me know... funk out, peter bevitori ________________________________________________________________ Get Free Anime Email, News, Links, Forums and Shopping at http://www.AnimeNation.com From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 2 13:37:02 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00504 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:37:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA31667 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:03:58 -0800 Received: from web20702.mail.yahoo.com (web20702.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.175]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id AAA08471 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:00:01 -0800 Message-ID: <20011102080001.8205.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.144.74] by web20702.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 00:00:01 PST Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:00:01 -0800 (PST) From: lon smith Subject: RE: [freestyle] Move ideas - what's been done? To: Floyd Morgan , "'freestyle@footbag.org'" In-Reply-To: <11B671CB12E9D111A9DE0000F8E238953846B1@INFOMETRICS2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello Listening Listers, Floyd wrote about fairy spinning and was wondering if a PARADOX add is possible on spinning moves set from the toes??? Who will set up a poll? I say yes paradox is possible from toe if you spin first. Questions questions?? Adious Mi Amigos Buen noche de Hallo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 2 13:38:30 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00519 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:38:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA31684 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:27:09 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f107.hotmail.com [216.32.181.107]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA09127 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:23:11 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:11:44 -0800 Received: from 63.212.143.1 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:11:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.212.143.1] From: "Nathan Maertens" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] pixie same dyno? majello? Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 00:11:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2001 08:11:44.0469 (UTC) FILETIME=[02A43050:01C16376] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wazzup Peoples, This is Dr. R from the Notorious Cobra Footbag Gangsters. I just wanted to comment on the following: >hey all, i've been trying to hit this move for a while and i finally have. >so i've been wondering, does it have a name? i've been calling it majello. >so if it's just a pixie same dyno or whatever, let me know... funk out, >peter bevitori Jeremy "Senor Grommet" Mirken and I were messing with this move a ways back cause we had never seen it before. It's a pretty dope trick, and I think majello is definitely an apt name. It's got my vote. Does anybod have a name for pixie op dyno? Later all, Nathan Maertens _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 2 18:01:59 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01873 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:01:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01344 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:32:57 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA26031 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:28:59 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.0-025 #39412) id <0GM607901OKAD4@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:28:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail.mscd.edu ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.0-025 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GM607899OKAQG@clem.mscd.edu>; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:28:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:14:07 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] pixie same dyno? majello? To: freestyle , Nathan Maertens Message-id: <3BC794EC@webmail.mscd.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Does anybod have a name >for pixie op dyno? Poppo! I don't know if that's what it's called, I just made it up. Brad From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 2 18:03:36 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01883 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:03:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01546 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:00:26 -0800 Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA27178 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:56:28 -0800 Received: from 24-205-34-189.glen-dyn.charterpipeline.com ([24.205.34.189] helo=sam) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15ziYL-0001eO-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:56:25 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c163c7$a390c4a0$bd22cd18@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: "lon smith" , "Floyd Morgan" , References: <20011102080001.8205.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move ideas - what's been done? Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:55:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org From: "lon smith" > Hello Listening Listers, > Floyd wrote about fairy spinning and was wondering if > a PARADOX add is possible on spinning moves set from > the toes??? > Who will set up a poll? I will. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oopsfreestyle/surveys?id=10228567 Sam Colclough Ever changing, new vids at http://www.penny-lane.com/ofv I heard a rumor too. and... new vids every week. From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 2 18:06:31 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01911 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:06:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01744 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:14:34 -0800 Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA27924 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:10:36 -0800 Received: from 24-205-34-189.glen-dyn.charterpipeline.com ([24.205.34.189] helo=sam) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zim3-0002ef-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:10:35 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01c163c9$9de39a80$bd22cd18@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: "Nathan Maertens" , References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] pixie same dyno? majello? (and sambelings) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:10:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org From: "Nathan Maertens" Does anybod have a name for pixie op dyno? Pixie osis is like a torque sorta so pixie dyno should be dorque... Or maybe that's what titty twister should be... although... titty twister is such a great name. How's it going freestylers? Imagine if we had teleporters and all of us could freestyle with whoever we wanted every day. Would there be a gigantic session with every styler every day? That would be so great. Also, to the Europeans. I LOVE seeing your videos guys. Keep posting them. Ales with his Olympic looking superfly and mean clean triple ATW. 1. I hear that fairy torque is forque so naturally fairy ducking torque should be forque lift right? 2. I like to duck and weave. (clip > head duck > op clip, clip > head dive > op clip) 3. I was stretching last night and my hamstring TOTALLY released it was great. 4. Making clips slomo in adobe premier is way harder than it should be. Everyone take good warm ups. Listen to your body and give yourself time to rest. Eat a balanced diet. SLEEP A LOT! SHHHHHHREEEEEEEEDDDDDDDD! Sam Colclough still pushing http://www.penny-lane.com/ofv for freestyle videos and a cool cartoon samurai... late! From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 2 18:28:29 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02023 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:28:29 -0800 Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01980 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:15:30 -0800 Received: from cluster1.sfsu.edu (cluster1.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.213]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA31638 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:11:32 -0800 Received: from apollo.sfsu.edu (daemon@apollo.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.167]) by cluster1.sfsu.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fA2JBUH03384 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tuhuge@localhost) by apollo.sfsu.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fA2JBTe09132 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:11:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: apollo.sfsu.edu: tuhuge owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:11:29 -0800 (PST) From: Tu Vu To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] The History of the Big Add Posse Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I've been trying to get this out for people and after months of attempts, you can finally see it. If you want a copy of the History of the Big Add Posse part 1, please e-mail me at tuhuge@hotmail.com. Enjoy Tu "Huge" Vu From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 2 22:36:52 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA02545 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:36:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f152.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.152]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02455 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:02:22 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:46:40 -0800 Received: from 161.184.29.156 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 22:46:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.29.156] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re:History Lesson Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:46:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2001 22:46:40.0952 (UTC) FILETIME=[3CFBCB80:01C163F0] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, I guess I've gotten all of the input I'm gonna get for my History Lesson post. I've compiled all of the answers I recieved and here's what I've found out: 1.First 3-add The concensus is that Jack Schoolcraft hit the first butterfly kick around 1980. 2.First 4-add Jack was also hitting spinning butterfly kick around the same time, give or take a couple months. 3. First 5-add Kenny Shults hit his infamous Double spinning osis for the first time in 1984. 4. First 6-add Tough one. Kenny thinks it was Big Apple, which he hit for the first time in 1992, but Food Processor, Spinning Paradox Blender and Whirlwind are other candidates. 5.First double spinner Everyone keeps saying DS osis by Kenny, and that was the first DS to a delay, but Jack Schoolcraft was hitting outside kick-Double spin-Inside kick well before that. 6.Torque-Blender which came first? Torque was first in around 1988. Blender came a couple years later. 7.Who hit first superfly? I don't think it'd be Mulroney, but Irish and Rippin' were hitting this before most others. The best guess is Rippin'. 8.First Barraging 3-dex Flurry came first, by either Tim Kelly or Rick Reese. 9.Blurriest-Blurrier which came first? Blurriest came first in 1993. Rippin' hit this first as well. 10.Who hit the first clipper? Clipper delay was probably "Invented" by a shredder named Will Squire in the mid-seventies. 11.Who came up with Bubba? This is unknown. Tim Kelly hit Bubba quite regularly before it was called this, so it might have been him. 12.Who hit first Shooting Star? Red "Shred" Husted hit this several times for the first time in May 2000. It's on video, the California Connection. 13.Who coined Symposium? Joey Shaeffer came up with the idea of symposium moves, and Rippin' Rick Reese scanned a dictionary at 3:00 AM, and came up with the term Symposium. The first move was Symp. Whirl, followed by Symposium Mirage, followed by Symp. Whirling Swirl etc. 14.First Unusual delay This is widely accepted to be the head-delay. I'm pretty sure Kenny came up with the idea to make UNS an add category, but god knows who hit the first Dreaded Head. Probably Stalberger. Many thanks go out to all members of the list who responded. A special thanks goes out to Kenny Shults, Matthew Kain Lewandowski, Aaron de Glanville, Paul Vorvick, Brad Kaplan, Ken Somolinos, and Rob Fuller. Thanks a lot guys! Oh, and I couldn't have done this without Rippin', cuz half of these questions wouldn't exist if it wasn't for him! thanks Rick! Maybe I'll throw out another history thing soon, but I'm a little busy lately with my list-thang. Peter Irish is releasing a book all about the history of footbag, which will truly kick ass, so I might just wait for that! Thanks again list! Dylan Livingston _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 3 16:23:17 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05569 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:23:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03703 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:32:14 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f163.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.19.163]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA20836 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:28:15 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:16:23 -0800 Received: from 207.148.137.180 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 02:16:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.148.137.180] From: "Rob Fuller" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Shoe Modifications Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 19:16:23 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2001 02:16:23.0870 (UTC) FILETIME=[88FCB5E0:01C1640D] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo, whats up! I was just thinking about all the shoe mods and who, and how were they discovered. I know about all the regular modifications, (taking out inner layer of mesh, special lacing etc...) but there are also the unique mods, like, I'm sure many of you have seen what Daryl "Genzu" does, where he takes out the material above the toes, and the tongue etc...and I know Windsor drills a hole in the sole of his. My question is simply this, is there anyone else out there with these "unique" mods? My new chinas (first pair, used to use milleniums) should be here next wednessday at the ABSOLUTE latest so I turned my old shoes into a mix of the "Genzu" and Windsor mods, they are really great, not sure I am going to genzu up my new ones though, just not used to that style of play yet. Rob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sun Nov 4 17:28:23 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09086 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:28:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (sql.market.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06765 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:16:58 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f223.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.223]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA27789 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:12:56 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:12:56 -0800 Received: from 161.184.29.50 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:12:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.29.50] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] pixie same dyno? majello? Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:12:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2001 22:12:56.0227 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0910730:01C164B4] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I personally like the name Majello! Haven't heard any other names for it...Who hit this move first, list? I think it should have a name. Stepping Same Dyno too. I know this move's been around for a while. Maybe Tripwalk or something. Just my 2 cents! Dylan Livingston >From: "peter bevitori" >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] pixie same dyno? majello? >Date: 1 Nov 2001 17:29:38 -0000 > >hey all, >i've been trying to hit this move >for a while and i finally have. so >i've been wondering, does it have a >name? i've been calling it majello. >so if it's just a pixie same dyno or >whatever, let me know... >funk out, > >peter bevitori > >________________________________________________________________ >Get Free Anime Email, News, Links, Forums and Shopping at >http://www.AnimeNation.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 6 05:15:28 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA13173 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:15:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA02742 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:08:26 -0800 Received: from laxerone@netscape.net by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id z.b1.11207e0 (16230) for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.com (mow-d01.webmail.aol.com [205.188.138.65]) by air-in02.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILININ26-1105050817; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 05:08:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 23:08:17 -0700 From: Jan Zimmermann To: announce@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Bootfaegers Shred (SwissJam #3) Message-ID: <4AA6D88C.15E5D8BD.0078AB1E@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org After tearing up Solothurn last weekend, the Swiss freestyle scene will gather again next Saturday in Basel for the third SwissJam entitled: BOOTFAEGERS SHRED In contrast to last Saturdays meeting, this will not be just an informal shred meeting but a full (although small scale) tournament. Competition will include 2min routines and sick 3 contest. Meeting point for all those coming from outside of Basel is the tram station Wettsteinplatz (tram No 2), meeting time is between 12 and 12.30. Details can be found in the event listing at http://www.footbag.org Pack your Bags everybody! Jan Zimmermann From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 6 15:55:20 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14709 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:55:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from moutvdom00.kundenserver.de (moutvdom00.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.149]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12454 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:20:13 -0800 Received: from [195.20.224.219] (helo=mrvdom03.schlund.de) by moutvdom00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 160uqQ-0006jP-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:16:02 +0100 Received: from b3e5c.pppool.de ([213.7.62.92] helo=nudelsuppe) by mrvdom03.schlund.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 160uqN-0007pN-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:16:01 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01c16661$65e43500$5c3e07d5@nudelsuppe> From: "Matthias Lino Schmidt" To: Subject: [freestyle] Worlds videos? Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:21:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Good morning... Did nobody put any footage of this year's Worlds online? How come? Or did I simply not notice? If this is the case, please tell me where to find these clips that will hopefully refresh my remembering the summer holidays... If this is not the case - video editors of this world, present your work! Adios, Matthias..... _____________________________________ "Der reissende Fluss wird gewalttaetig genannt, aber das Ufer, das ihn einengt, nennt keiner gewalttaetig." _____________________________________ www.linoschmidt.de www.linoschmidt.de/wgr From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 6 17:11:23 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15166 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:11:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f162.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.162]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14971 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:57:46 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:53:04 -0800 Received: from 161.184.27.28 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:53:04 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.27.28] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:Motion Sickness Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:53:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2001 17:53:04.0640 (UTC) FILETIME=[E27EE800:01C166EB] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey List! I've gotten tremendous input from almost all of you on my list! It's filling up so well, that I have to put just a couple boundaries. First off, X-Body pincher endings are cool, but I'm not going to put any more on the list, just because almost any move can end in X-Body Pincher. Same with Flapper, heel, sole, reverse hopover, and that whole world. Not that a Shooting Star Flapper wouldn't be sick, but a butterfly flapper is nothing special, really. On the other hand, these moves as sets really do kick ass. As well as frigidosis-set moves, Pendulum set moves, Dragon-set moves. These all kick ass. Frigid-ending moves are slightly less impressive, but still cool. Rake set moves are basically toe-set. I'm looking for more Twirl-stuff, Dragon Stuff, 8-add moves, and other cool stuff. Also, if anyone can define the following moves, that'd be very cool. Jacknife Aeon Flux Vertigo Mantis Flipwalk Flaming Retard These are just moves I've come across in the archives. Noone's ever said what a Flipwalk is, but it makes sense that it'd be a Dragon-Sidewalk. Also, what exactly does "Void" mean? I've heard the term applied to a rooted-style set, but I'm still confused. I've brought up a lot of stuff in this post, so if anyone has any info on any of this stuff, please reply to me. Thanks ever so much list! Dylan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 6 23:35:27 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA16186 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:35:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f125.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.125]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16135 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:11:27 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:06:44 -0800 Received: from 161.184.26.165 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 00:06:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.26.165] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Washing my Sack Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:06:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2001 00:06:44.0981 (UTC) FILETIME=[160F7250:01C16720] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sick subject, I know. I recently recieved my "Mirage" footbag from www.footbagworldwide.com and I was wondering... Are you supposed to wash this footbag as per Juice bag, or just break it in as per Guatemalan Crochet footbag? It's an awesome footbag, and I don't want to ruin it by washing if it shouldn't be washed, but it does need a little help to become the "Perfect Footbag." So... Does anyone know what I should do? PS:I also purchased a Dirtbag. If anyone's out there shredding with a good old Sipa Sipa, I'd suggest checking out a Dirtbag. It's soft, sticky, and doesn't require any "Breaking in." It's a good pro-footbag for just starting out and schooling stalls and beginner moves. A more hardcore pro styler should check out a Juice bag. This is a great footbag that lasts a long long time and sits like a good dog when you tell it to. Anyway, that's my 2 cents, and a question, at the top for those of you who skipped to the end. Thanks very much list! Dylan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 7 12:21:49 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA18539 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:21:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.118]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16464 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:04:23 -0800 Received: from storefull-615.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-615.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.35]) by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 396BC189A; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-615.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id SAA29210; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:00:06 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQ+xXiYrlDYKJihV3vRxHyU2frFIAIUWn1ZyCiNnX6989P/31LVye5JnFg= From: GFSmoothie@webtv.net (Greg Nelson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:00:06 -0500 (EST) To: shags125@hotmail.com (Dylan Livingston) Cc: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Washing my Sack Message-ID: <8808-3BE895A6-919@storefull-615.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: "Dylan Livingston" 's message of Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:06:44 -0700 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey List! Dylan wrote; "PS:I also purchased a Dirtbag. If anyone's out there shredding with a good old Sipa Sipa, I'd suggest checking out a Dirtbag. It's soft, sticky, and doesn't require any "Breaking in."" Check out a Sandbag. They are inexpensive, made in America, require no break-in, and come with a lifetime unconditional warranty. gf From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 7 21:50:43 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20337 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:50:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mout03.kundenserver.de (mout03.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.218]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19093 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:20:04 -0800 Received: from [195.20.224.219] (helo=mrvdom03.schlund.de) by mout03.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 161VMi-0006dM-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:15:48 +0100 Received: from a1as11-p24.bln.tli.de ([195.252.154.24] helo=nudelsuppe) by mrvdom03.schlund.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 161VMh-0006Er-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:15:47 +0100 Message-ID: <005e01c167a8$45e6ba00$189afcc3@nudelsuppe> From: "Matthias Lino Schmidt" To: References: <002a01c16661$65e43500$5c3e07d5@nudelsuppe> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds videos? Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:21:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ..so I should have precised my request: I am looking for shred videos, not the routines! -Matthias...... _____________________________________ "Der reissende Fluss wird gewalttaetig genannt, aber das Ufer, das ihn einengt, nennt keiner gewalttaetig." _____________________________________ www.linoschmidt.de www.linoschmidt.de/wgr From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 7 21:52:07 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20347 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:52:07 -0800 Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19210 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:00:45 -0800 Received: from cluster1.sfsu.edu (cluster1.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.213]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA02628 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:56:29 -0800 Received: from apollo.sfsu.edu (daemon@apollo.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.167]) by cluster1.sfsu.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fA7GuSD27841 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tuhuge@localhost) by apollo.sfsu.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fA7GuR725643 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:56:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: apollo.sfsu.edu: tuhuge owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:56:27 -0800 (PST) From: TU VU To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] History of BAP Clarifications Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org History of BAP clarifications Hi all, Thanks for everyone's interest in this article! I hope you guys enjoyed it. Just to make a few clarifications: 1) Kenny Shults hit double around the world in 1983 and maybe before. In the article, It says 1984. 2)The "TRUE" first specialist of net was Gary Griggs when he won worlds in 1987. Also, Jon Lind (the man) would best fit the description of first freestyle specialist when he won his first title in 1986. Thanks Kenny for these second revisions. Another note, my name is Tu and I have brother named Tuan. he is good at footbag. Easy mistake but then again, we all look alike :-) I've thought about making the video version of the articles but it might be a daunting task. I'll do some investigation. thanks. Tu "Huge" Vu From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 7 21:54:15 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20363 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:54:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f253.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.131]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20319 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:45:01 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:40:15 -0800 Received: from 161.184.27.66 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:40:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.27.66] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Motion Sickness Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 15:40:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2001 22:40:15.0425 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B41CB10:01C167DD] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey List! Okay, a couple days ago I posted that I wasn't going to take moves ending in unusual delays. I also said there's nothing special about a Butterflapper (My term). I realize now that that's completely wrong, and I've only gotten one reply that stated this, where I was expecting tons of hate-mail. Flapper-moves are definitely more difficult than clipper-moves, and all of you know that. The only reason I said what I did was because it seemed to me that ANYTHING could be hit to Flapper. But I stated in that very post that Shooting star flapper would be sick! Noone's hit this yet, so flapper moves must be more difficult. So please, I will now welcome any move ending in an unusual delay. The only moves I'm currently not accepting are moves that end in reverse hopover. I find that, if you can hold a clipper-delay, you CAN hit any move to reverse hopover, and this includes Shooting Star. Sure it's tough, but it's a whole different move in my opinion. There's the Shooting Star...And then there's the hopover. Other than this situation, (And of course stuff like Guay Hopover), I'm accepting ANY moves that have been hit by anyone. For god's sake, this was my idea in the first place! I don't want to mess up my own idea! Well, thanks for listening, and keep those flapper-moves coming! (And come on. Around the world to an inside delay is around the world. Guay is a special case). Thanks for listening to my idle chatter, and keep the moves a-comin'! Dylan Livingston _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sun Nov 11 14:17:34 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03674 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:17:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA30359 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 05:20:46 -0800 Received: from femail36.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail36.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.26]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA07926 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 22:16:22 -0800 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([65.10.4.236]) by femail36.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011110061618.ITIW2675.femail36.sdc1.sfba.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 22:16:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3BECC721.2A488A23@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:20:17 -0600 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: derric@dallasfootbag.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Records Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok. I've finally gotten around to updating the record list on http://www.dallasfootbag.org Thanks to everyone for your patience and for shredding so hard. There are some truly sick records up there now. My favorite? Hmmm... if you count stamina, Alex Zerbe's new record of 161 infinities has got to be one of them. But... I would have to say that my favorite is Chris Pinkus' 6 symposium eggbeaters. He even got it on video, so there can be no doubt. Not just 6 wifebeaters, but he played into them with some good stuff. The video is worth seeing. So, yeah, the record list has been updated. Let me know if you see anything missing. And... it is getting really long. Eventually it will be trimmed down to only the video verified records. That will keep it at a manageable size, and there won't be any doubt about any of the stuff. Hope to see everyone at Texas State next weekend, and if not there then Chicago for the New Year. Later. -Derric DFC From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sun Nov 11 14:20:32 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03686 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:20:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00553 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 20:17:05 -0800 From: Zck250@aol.com Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA32735 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:12:36 -0800 Received: from Zck250@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id z.81.12dcb418 (15900) for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from web51.aolmail.aol.com (web51.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.161.12]) by air-id09.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID93-1110161230; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:12:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 16:12:29 EST Subject: [freestyle] Footbag Advice? To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <81.12dcb418.291ef23e@aol.com> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'd like to know if the 62-panel import ( http://flyingclipper.com/home/fc1/page/15/19 ) from flying clipper is a great freestyle bag. If it's not, what are some other great hacks? Thanks, Zack From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 12 15:44:14 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07669 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:44:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05778 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 03:26:44 -0800 Received: from malibu.cc.uga.edu (malibu.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.103]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA02978 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:22:13 -0800 Received: from archa9.cc.uga.edu (arch9.cc.uga.edu) by malibu.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <1.004AC4A0@malibu.cc.uga.edu>; 11 Nov 2001 23:22:11 -0500 Received: from integer.uga.edu (host-209-214-96-194.ahn.bellsouth.net [209.214.96.194]) by archa9.cc.uga.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA143464 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 23:21:30 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011111230504.00a25670@imap.arches.uga.edu> X-Sender: integer@imap.arches.uga.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 23:18:34 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Xander Faber Subject: [freestyle] Lion's Den Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is by far and wide the most aesthetically pleasing footbag freestyle vid I've ever seen. The opening scene alone gets your heart racing (excellent editing and music choices). The comic relief element is something I've always liked about previous videos I've watched, and this video's got tons of it too. The duel between Rich Abshire and Ellis Piltz is priceless. Anyone that doesn't own it should either buy a copy, or find a friend that has a one and camp out in his or her living room and watch it non-stop for about 48 hours. Thanks go to Hollywood Chad and everyone else associated with the video. I've had a blast watching it. Can't wait for the next production. Enough of the flagrant promo. Shred on. Alex From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 14 15:24:22 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16272 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:24:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13860 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:39:38 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f101.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.101]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA25891 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:35:01 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:35:01 -0800 Received: from 139.80.123.34 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:35:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.80.123.34] From: "jono heyes" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] shoes wanted Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:35:01 +1300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Nov 2001 02:35:01.0589 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5BE5850:01C16CB4] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all i have a friend who is fourteen who is busting all sorts of tricks without lavers. He is really keen to get a pair of them strapped to his feet,i'm sure his game will go exponential the moment he does. So if anybody out there has a pair of used 6 1/2 or 7 lavers get in touch with jonathon at murf300@hotmail.com also anyone with some used 8 1/2 chinese or millenium get in touch with me, much appreciated Jono _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 14 15:25:41 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16309 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:25:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16257 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:12:11 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f89.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.89]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA25820 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:07:32 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:07:32 -0800 Received: from 206.15.253.3 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:07:32 GMT X-Originating-IP: [206.15.253.3] From: "andy moore" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] What are these moves? Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:07:32 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Nov 2001 16:07:32.0755 (UTC) FILETIME=[77B3EE30:01C16D26] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello everyone i was wonderimg if any of you footbaggers coul educate me on waht a Zu le loup and a corkscrew are any info is helpful thanks LATER ANdy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 14 15:31:52 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16333 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:31:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12874 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:58:34 -0800 From: "Andrew Coleman" Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA01908 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 12:53:58 -0800 Received: from CrazyHackier@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id z.10e.811ecd1 (4249) for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:53:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10e.811ecd1.2922e24f@cs.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:53:35 EST Subject: [freestyle] Name for this move? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 113 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was just sittin in class the other day, and I thought about a new move to try, so later on in P.E. I tried it out and landed it, the move is kind of an ATW neck catch. You set the bag on your neck, throw it up, bring your head around and over it and do another neck catch. Is there a special name for this or is it just an ATW neck catch? -Andrew From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 16 16:58:41 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23996 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:58:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16554 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:40:46 -0800 From: "Kenny Shults" Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com (imo-r07.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.103]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA29553 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:36:07 -0800 Received: from KenShults@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id z.a6.1cb45367 (1320) for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:35:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:35:58 EST Subject: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 127 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I hope this doesn't open up some big can of worms but I had a thought this morning on my drive to the office, which I usually spend doing combos in my head. It occurred to me that the real measure of difficulty in a routine should have to do with the risk of dropping it. This probably has more to do with the number of really big tricks you try in a routine than the total number of tricks and/or adds you accumulate. It seems like difficulty works kind of like the Richter Scale where 1 more point is actually 10 times stronger. This is probably not too far off. I haven't done a formal study but I would guess that on average a BAP player might be about 10 times more likely to drop a 4 Add trick than a 3 Add and about 10 times more likely to drop 5 Add than a 4 Add, etc. If two players both do the same number of tricks and rack up the same add count and ratio, but one guy does 5 six add tricks and the other guy doesn't have anything bigger than a 4, I think the odds are pretty darn good that the guy with the 6's took more real risk. I know that there are a lot problems with the current system beyond just difficulty scoring, but in case anyone out there is working on a remedy I thought I'd throw this thought into the mix. Kenny Shults (I accept full responsibility for the failings of the Add System) From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 16 17:07:28 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24169 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:07:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23982 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:53:06 -0800 Received: from mx9.port.ru (mx9.port.ru [194.67.57.19]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA15664 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:48:18 -0800 Received: from f12.int ([10.0.0.85] helo=f12.port.ru) by mx9.port.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 164n5z-00061Y-00 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:48:07 +0300 Received: from mail by f12.port.ru with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 164n5j-000NGP-00 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:47:51 +0300 Received: from [207.35.188.13] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:47:51 +1080000 From: "Anthony Zverev" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Kickers needed... Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: 10.0.133.0 via proxy [207.35.188.13] Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:47:51 +1080000 Reply-To: "Ucho" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo list.... Hi everyone, i hope you all are alright and ready for the great shred.. I was looking for players around Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I began playing freestyle in Russia, so now i am in Canada and don't know any kickers here. The weathers gets cold nowdays, so it's unreal to play freestyle outdors. All i need is to find a gym and some shredders, because playing alone is some kind of onanism.... i think so. So, please mail me on my droppless@mail.ru and we'll have fun. Thanks, best regards from Anthony Zverev From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 16 17:12:24 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24205 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:12:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24202 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:12:23 -0800 Received: from I (p60.footbag.org [209.125.90.60]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA16600 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:07:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@209.125.90.2 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:07:35 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sounds reasonable.. I've been thinking along similar lines, based on my now-expansive understanding of the Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 combo multipliers. :-) I think you're saying we should steal the concept of multiplying combo scores. The only problem is that at the current level of play, by the top 50 players, determining difficulty could be even that much more complicated... But keep the thoughts coming 'cause this is the kind of constructive discussion we've needed to have for a while on how to assign difficulty. Steve At 12:35 PM -0500 11/14/01, Kenny Shults wrote: >It seems like difficulty works kind of like the Richter Scale where >1 more point is actually 10 times stronger. From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 16 17:55:37 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24339 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:55:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24257 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:26:15 -0800 Received: from alpha.math.uga.edu (alpha.math.uga.edu [128.192.3.9]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA17152 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:21:29 -0800 Received: from localhost (faber@localhost) by alpha.math.uga.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA13138; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:21:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:21:26 -0500 (EST) From: Alexander Faber To: Kenny Shults cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Kenny Shults wrote: > It seems like difficulty works kind of like the Richter Scale where 1 more > point is actually 10 times stronger. This is probably not too far off. > I haven't done a formal study but I would guess that on average a BAP player > might be about 10 times more likely to drop a 4 Add trick than a 3 Add and > about 10 times more likely to drop a 5 Add than a 4 Add, etc. If two > players both do the same number of tricks and rack up the same add count and > ratio, but one guy does 5 six add tricks and the other guy doesn't have > anything bigger than a 4, I think the odds are pretty darn good that the > guy with the 6's took more real risk. This is a brilliant observation, in my opinion, that could really lead to some cleaning up of the add system. It certainly does feel like blurry toruqe is a thousand times harder than osis > Kenny Shults > (I accept full responsibility for the failings of the Add System) I got a good laugh out of this. I'm sure everyone reading it also noted that you can take a lot of the responsibility for the Add System's strengths as well. Shred on, Alex Faber From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 16 21:23:17 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA24632 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:23:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f111.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.111]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24558 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:45:51 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:40:35 -0800 Received: from 161.184.26.99 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:40:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.26.99] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:40:35 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Nov 2001 21:40:35.0297 (UTC) FILETIME=[530D5D10:01C16EE7] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey list! Kenny brought up some good points, and I thought I'd add to that. First off, the adds system seems to be more of a way of showing the different move elements in a move. This, as most people have noticed, does not necessarily gauge difficulty of a move. More adds does not always mean a tougher move. Many people hit ducking Dimwalk before ducking atom-smasher, despite the fact that the latter is worth less adds. This is obviously because atom smashing is more difficult than dimwalking. The only reason dimwalk is a step up is because it ends on a clipper. I think the answer is types of dexterity in gauging difficulty, as well as different types of other move elements. Listing moves in order of difficulty, most people will agree that an in-out dexterity followed by an opposite side move element is easier than an out-in dexterity followed by an opposite side move element. There will always be exceptions to this rule, since many people (Including myself) can hit an eggbeater, but not a toe-blur. The reason for this is because Atomic-set moves are generally easier than Quantum-set moves (Again a rule with exceptions.) Generally, I find (IN DEX-OP OUT) easier than (OUT DEX-OP OUT) which is easier than (IN DEX-OP IN) which is easier than (OUT DEX-OP IN). I think everyone has a different feeling about this, so it's difficult to decide on a realistic way of judging difficulty. If it's purely based on adds like in Kenny's suggestion, we'll never see another Atom-smasher, or S&M smasher, or Frigid-moves, or Paradox Blurry stuff (Which I really love doing). I really dig Kenny's idea of thinking realistically in the area of difficulty, but I think it needs a new outlook. A few pro-shredders should get together and seriously discuss this topic. I'm proficient in calculus, and I've found that substitution is sometimes the only way to solve a problem. I'm sure there is an equation possible that relates move difficulty to type of move. Maybe we need a few more add categories... Ok, I'm getting out of hand. Good topic Kenny. I hope we can come up with a reasonable answer to the difficulty question. If I can help any way, I will. Peace list! Dylan >From: "Kenny Shults" >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:35:58 EST > >I hope this doesn't open up some big can of worms but I had a thought this >morning on my drive to the office, which I usually spend doing combos in my >head. It occurred to me that the real measure of difficulty in a routine >should have to do with the risk of dropping it. This probably has more to _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 19 18:33:57 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03875 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:33:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from c007.snv.cp.net (c007-h011.c007.snv.cp.net [209.228.33.217]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA24837 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:52:07 -0800 Received: (cpmta 13095 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2001 15:46:50 -0800 Received: from 64.194.176.97 (HELO pinkus) by smtp.directvinternet.com (209.228.33.217) with SMTP; 16 Nov 2001 15:46:50 -0800 X-Sent: 16 Nov 2001 23:46:50 GMT Message-ID: <002501c16ef8$e769cd20$61b0c240@pinkus> From: "Chris Pinkus" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:46:24 -0800 Organization: OOPS! Freestyle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dylan Livingston" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty > The reason for this is because > Atomic-set moves are generally easier than Quantum-set moves (Again a rule > with exceptions.) Generally, I find (IN DEX-OP OUT) easier than (OUT DEX-OP > OUT) which is easier than (IN DEX-OP IN) which is easier than (OUT DEX-OP > IN I think it all depends on what we see hit more often. If toe blur was more commonly hit than atom smasher, people would practice quantum before skooling atomics, making quantum easier. And clippers can't get taken for granted. After doing clippers so much you take it for granted and start thinking how toe moves are tougher. This sport is getting so technical. So in my opinion, the ADD system is for the most part, flawless. I like it, and it was the best way the sport could have gotten started. Thanks Kenny. Chris Pinkus From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 19 18:36:10 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03886 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:36:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01837 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:38:45 -0800 Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA17622 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 09:37:09 -0800 Received: from 24-205-34-189.glen-dyn.charterpipeline.com ([24.205.34.189] helo=sam) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 165VsT-0004Fw-00 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 09:37:09 -0800 Message-ID: <002601c17057$438d8ba0$bd22cd18@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: Subject: [freestyle] Shred videos Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 09:34:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dear Diary, It seems that the style of shred videos is changing. The newer ones are focusing more on short bursts of shred with interviews and/or humorous clips in between them. They are also getting shorter. This is perfectly understandable since they are becoming more geared to a wider audience. Also, I have heard about a lot of videos being made from people I don't know. I understand this cause I made a video and I'm sure shredders prob heard about it and thought, "Bust What Now? By WHO???" So.... A. I'm going to compile a list of videos that people have made and who has made them. It will be in web page format with links when available. If you have ever made a shred video, e-mail me with the following info: Title of video Length of video Date of publication Description and Credits (ie, who shredded in the video, who helped make the video, and any additional info you want published) A picture of the video if you have one Is it still available for purchase? If applicable: Contact info for purchase (e-mail, web page URL, phone number) Price I want pro videos. I want amateur videos. The only thing I don't want, is no videos. also... While watching whirled shred... my fav shred video... I like to try and call the moves and sometimes the adds. Practice you know? I always get tripped up on Ahren's atomic same butterflies and Lon's gyro pickups. So, in my head I call atomic same butterfly booty beater and gyro pickup Pippie Lon-Stockings (Pippie for short). Also I think that Lon is 1 part trailer trash and 2 parts forest ranger. Bye Lon, Sammy C ps Pippie Lon-Stockings!!! pps I'm not actually going to jail. From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 19 18:38:50 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03908 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:38:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01916 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:48:35 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f187.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.187]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA20308 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:46:59 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:35:49 -0800 Received: from 24.64.223.204 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:35:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.64.223.204] From: "Jubal Hume" To: KenShults@aol.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:35:48 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Nov 2001 18:35:49.0057 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7F6E310:01C1705F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org HEy All, dark horse here..lol..[jubal hume] I don't post too much, but I think this is very important to all of the footbagers in the world and what Ken [the Man] was saying about a multiplier is great... Myself [Jubal] and Jeremy as well as ALLAN in Victoria B.C. Canada.. Have been talking about such an idea for about a year or two as well... So here's the deal...We keep the ADD system as it is, but to keep track of components and component order [which can help in determining difficulty] [EG: do a blur..but reverse the dex order...see..a LOT harder...but it's still a four add move...] and we add in a link Scoring system...[working on one this winter]..,but some ideas are... that if you go up an ADD...EG: 3 to a 4 add move...then you get the Difference as a bonus...so an extra point...but if you go 3 add to a 7 add...you would get 4 extra points...and I do realize that all comps would NEED to be judged from video to verify...but we need this anyway.. I have lots to do refining this idea so any and all help will be accepted [i'm wanting mad help]... :-) Another thing that would help the competition judging and scoring is to take the system from Ice skating... divide the comp into artistic and technical runs ...for each round...say 60 second TECH [shred] and a 120 second ARTISTIC... and in order to win the worlds etc. you would need to have the highest AVERAGE in both sections... some notes on this... all competitors would need to submit and adhere to a program... all competitors would need to do a certain set of MANDATORY moves in the Technical section... and mandatory LINKS and move COMPONENTS in the artistic... also...this may help too...put more focus on ADD order as a way of determining difficulty... put more focus on links and combos and style...as well as originality... I am working on a list of moves that I think should be included as prereques...[required]... EG: torque..rip walk...blur...spinning osis..etc.. and these moves will contain all the components but that's not all..they will contain the components in Different orders and in different combinations...[spin-dex-crossbody...air-dex spin...etc...] I would love to hear from as many people as I can about this... this is just a suggestion.. :-) and it's a rough idea..please bare with me... Kicks for all....and to all a good night :-)(-: Still shredding in Canada..ps...check out our web site www.footbag video.com Jubal Hume _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 19 18:40:52 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03923 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:40:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02589 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:42:14 -0800 Received: from balle (nas-cbv-5-44-58.dial.proxad.net [212.27.44.58]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 15A69AB235 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:40:18 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001201c16fd1$f8afbfc0$3a2c1bd4@balle> From: "Maxime Boucoiran" To: References: <200111182050.MAA01388@list.footbag.org> Subject: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 02:40:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hello list, the other day a friend of mine attempted a couple of symposium barrages (looks hard and he was'nt very close to landing it). It got me wandering about syposium doubledexes (same leg doing both dexes). I know most of the out to in dexes have been one (superfly, symp. paradon, symp down double etc...) but what about in to out dexes? Have symp barrage, symp whirr or symp terrage been hit? Thanks for your thoughts/answers. Max From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 19 18:42:24 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03937 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:42:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02633 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:30:32 -0800 From: "Josh Johnson" Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com (imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.106]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA10706 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:28:54 -0800 Received: from Zuyot@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.7d.1e23f0ef (4242) for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:28:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7d.1e23f0ef.2929c849@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:28:25 EST Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 114 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Here come the worms... The infamous question: "How can one determine difficulty?" Well, that is a very open-ended question. Due to the fact that footbag is all relative; speed, height, flexibility, etc. But as in any activity there must be interpretation. We just need to set standards for that interpretation. Maybe its such that it is impossible to have a system for this sport which allows for fair play all across the board. But we can try our best to find one that fits the majority of its players. Honestly, there isn't a system for rating difficulty yet. We have a very primitive way of rating. We have not yet (until now) discovered that. Now obviously the add system is a great way to, well add up the elements of a trick, not necessarily describe its difficulty. The time as arisen when we are looking for a system in which rates difficulty. To do this you have to first look at the elements involved: [I'm sure I left some things out, but you'll get my point] Elements of a trick: Rotation of body around bag (spinning) Number of rotations around the bag with each leg (dexs) Movement of bag around body (duck/dive) Setting of the bag Delaying of the bag AND The correlation of each element with each other. (This is the key thing and has not yet been included into any system) Elements of a run: Level of tricks in a run Length of the run or combo Consistency of tricks in the run Cleanss or aesthetic quality Now originally we just took the parts of a trick ... added them up and then called it difficulity. Well, first off I don't think that every element was considered. Take into account the butterfly: SET > OP OUT [DEX] > OP CLIP [CXB][DEL] Now take into account: SET > OP OUT [DEX] > SAME CLIP [CXB][DEL] They have the same add count but one would agree that the second is a bit for difficult due to the fact that the leg actaully goes all the way around the bag instead of just under the bag. Creating a full-dex rather than a half-dex. This is simply an example of how I believe that there are still some elements hidden within the current system that need to be revealed. Secondly we look at the how each element correlates with each other. Look at the ducking butterfly: SET > DUCK [BOD] > OP OUT [DEX] > OP CLIP[DEL] Then look at: SET > OP OUT [DEX] > DUCK [BOD] > OP CLIP [DEL] These have the exact same elements, but the succession has changed making it much harder to hit a dex before a bod move. Thus we need to find a way to measure or 'rate' the succession of elements. [That is pretty much all that matters at this point but since we're on the topic I might as well go further] Third we look at the runs or the combs. This goes along the same line as the tricks do. Hitting a 2add > 5add > 2add > 5add is going to be easier than hitting 2add > 2add > 5add > 5add due to the fact that the bigger the trick the harder it is to link thus making it more difficult of a run. Linking a bigger trick to bigger trick shows the advancement and consistency . I believe that should be taken into account. (i.e. what Shults reciently said in this thread) Lastly we look at the cleanness. This is something that I don't think really needs to dealt with right away but due to the fact that anyone who knows a thing or two about footbag can spot slop. But for right now we are trying to address the unified difficulty of tricks. Also by looking at things this way we are then able to open up a new playing field for advanced players. Many players can hit the majority of the tricks ever created. But by looking into the correlation of elements in each trick you are able to create even more moves and combos that challenge even the most advanced players. True, as in many things, the level of interpretation of this sport is pretty high. But by looking objectively as such, the answers might come a bit easier. Now this may be a shock, but the possible answer may be just something completely new. I hope this sparked some interest in some people and may push others to think about this topic. And I would be excited to see if anyone understood what I was saying. I'm open to ALL criticism, I wrote this for that very reason. So thanx for reading! -Josh Johnson- KCFC From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 22:34:06 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05627 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:34:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f246.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.246]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04471 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:06:21 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:04:10 -0800 Received: from 216.27.144.66 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:04:10 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.27.144.66] From: "Stan Sagalovskiy" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:04:10 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2001 00:04:10.0906 (UTC) FILETIME=[E19837A0:01C17156] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, I don't particularly enjoy the add discussion myself, as I know many other people don't. But at the same time, we would all like to improve on it. The x-dex, in my opinion, is a great addition, fixing atom smashers, varities of blur and blizzard (toe, paradox), etc. The question I'd like to ask is whether people think that symposium doubledexes should receive two body adds instead of one. Making superfly, for example, six adds. While not so apparent with out-to-in dexterities, say hitting symposium terrage should (in my eyes) be worth more than four adds. Another way to look at this is to imagine a flailing symposium butterfly (same leg for both dexes) receiving six adds, but symposium paradon five - the difference here being the set. Symposium paradon seems like it should receive more adds than an atomic symposium butterfly. After all, there are two symposium dexes. I've spoken to quite a few people on this topic, and while some nod others disagree. I'd like to get other people's opinion on this. Maybe a .. poll? Thank you for your time, Stan Sagalovskiy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 22:35:22 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05637 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:35:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04553 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:36:49 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f108.hotmail.com [216.32.181.108]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA06202 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:35:08 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:24:02 -0800 Received: from 195.197.160.10 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:24:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [195.197.160.10] From: "Jyri Ilama" To: soleairpro@hotmail.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:24:02 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2001 01:24:02.0408 (UTC) FILETIME=[098D6680:01C17162] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jubal wrote: >that if you go up an ADD...EG: 3 to a 4 add move...then you get the >Difference as a bonus...so an extra point...but if you go 3 add to a 7 >add...you would get 4 extra points...and I do realize that all comps would >NEED to be judged from video to verify...but we need this anyway.. Okay, that could be a nice system, but.. think of hitting a 7 adder after a 1 adder? and getting 6 extra points? so, if you hit two 7 add tricks in a row you get 14 'points' and if you hit a 7 adder after a 1 adder you're still getting 14 points? naah.. :P .. some combos: 1 add > 7 add > 1 add > 7 add, 28 adds? 7 add > 6 add > 6 add > 6 add, 25 adds? But, I really loved the idea of Kenny's about multipliers.. For example one multiplier for a spin, another for a stepping, one for atomic.. and so on. Anyhow, I'm not dying if anyone isn't doing anything to the present add system - I think it's very good, even though it has some little weaknesses. Yepyep, keep up the shreddy work. :] - Jyri Ilama _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 22:37:12 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05653 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:37:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05560 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:26:29 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f79.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.79]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA19434 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:24:46 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:24:42 -0800 Received: from 64.228.167.134 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:24:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.228.167.134] From: "Yacine Merzouk" To: freestyle@footbag.org Cc: lord2@club-internet.fr Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:24:42 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2001 20:24:42.0741 (UTC) FILETIME=[632B7250:01C17201] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo! Max asked... >>>What about symp. double dexes? Double symposium tap and double-symp. atomic same side illusion have been hit by yours truly. I know of some people hitting symp. barrage clipper and toe set. I guess a lot of double-dex-double-symposium moves can be hit with symp.-quantum and symp.-atomic sets. That's it. -Yacine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 22:37:50 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05669 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:37:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05609 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:15:16 -0800 Received: from ds9.beatricene.com (ds9.beatricene.com [208.15.132.129]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA24754 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:13:32 -0800 Received: from chris-wks.planetquake.com (matt2-wks.beatricene.com [208.15.132.78]) by ds9.beatricene.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAKMDMO16295; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:13:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011120160253.00b054d0@mail.planetquake.com> X-Sender: shatter@mail.planetquake.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:07:43 -0600 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Chris Holden Subject: [freestyle] Christmas kicking in South Carolina Cc: niceguy29611@yahoo.com, streetfighteriscool@excite.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org A Proud member of the Nebraska Posse (not official name) is going home for the holidays. I'll be in Spartanburg, South Carolina all of Christmas week. I'll be looking for kickers, stylers, and shredders alike to beat me down with some skills. Anybody going to be in town? (reply directly to me) Thanks, Chris Holden mailto:shatter@planetquak.com http://www.beatricene.com/footbag/ Calendar of Events: http://www.beatricene.com/cgi-bin/footbag-calendar/calendar.cgi From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 22:39:57 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05685 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:39:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04090 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:05:32 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f113.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.113]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA15116; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:03:50 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:51:53 -0800 Received: from 165.121.220.32 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:51:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [165.121.220.32] Reply-To: Ceiling-Fan@footbag.org From: "Ken Somolinos" To: sam@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Shred videos Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:51:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Nov 2001 18:51:53.0398 (UTC) FILETIME=[412B6560:01C1712B] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, Sam wrote: >So, in my head I >call atomic same butterfly booty beater and gyro pickup Pippie >Lon-Stockings >(Pippie for short). Atomic same butterfly is called tapdown. I think Gyro pickup is called parallax. The name is on the moves list I'm pretty sure. If you don't know the name of a move, look at the moves list on .org first before proposing names. CF PS-Stan Sagalovskiy organized a kickass freestyle jam at NYU yesterday. It got me thinking about how we need more tournies and jams, as well as the benefits of clubs, and why I love footbag. Expect a write up soon. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 22:40:52 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05701 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:40:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04402 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:48:26 -0800 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA27606 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:46:46 -0800 Received: from 24-205-34-189.glen-dyn.charterpipeline.com ([24.205.34.189] helo=sam) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 165xBe-0004QJ-00 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:46:46 -0800 Message-ID: <002d01c1714b$aee4ca40$bd22cd18@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Shred videos Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:44:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org From: "Ken Somolinos" > -> I think Gyro pickup is called parallax. The name is on the moves list I'm > pretty sure. If you don't know the name of a move, look at the moves list > on .org first before proposing names. parallax is gyro legover... why don't you follow your own advice? -sam colclough From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 23:00:15 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA05872 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:00:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from c007.snv.cp.net (c007-h011.c007.snv.cp.net [209.228.33.217]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA05821 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:54:53 -0800 Received: (cpmta 18925 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2001 14:52:31 -0800 Received: from 64.194.176.97 (HELO pinkus) by smtp.directvinternet.com (209.228.33.217) with SMTP; 20 Nov 2001 14:52:31 -0800 X-Sent: 20 Nov 2001 22:52:31 GMT Message-ID: <000a01c17215$bb9701c0$61b0c240@pinkus> Reply-To: "Chris Pinkus" From: "Chris Pinkus" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:50:19 -0800 Organization: OOPS! Freestyle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think any symposium move should get 10 body adds. :) But realisticly, a symposium paradon (and the like) is deserving of only 1 body add. Because it requires one initial burst of strength, like any other symposium move, and one hard landing, just like any other symposium move. That should settle it. Chris Pinkus From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 20 23:22:20 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA05988 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:22:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from moutvdom01.kundenserver.de (moutvdom01.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.200]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02517 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 00:07:35 -0800 Received: from [195.20.224.204] (helo=mrvdom00.schlund.de) by moutvdom01.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 165bwZ-0008P3-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:05:47 +0100 Received: from b3d49.pppool.de ([213.7.61.73] helo=nudelsuppe) by mrvdom00.schlund.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 165bwQ-0000wo-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:05:42 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c1708e$d30a0240$493d07d5@nudelsuppe> From: "Matthias Lino Schmidt" To: Subject: [freestyle] Introduction Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:11:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org http://download.divx.com/videocodecs/divx/DivX4CodecInstaller.exe (necessary codec 0.5 MB) http://www.footbag.cz/video/cz/teaser.mpg (teaser 3.6 MB 40s) http://www.footbag.cz/video/cz/vasek_me.mpg (introducing... 10MB 89s) http://www.footbag.cz/video/cz/vasik10.avi (2.5 MB 24 s) http://www.footbag.cz/video/cz/vasik13.avi (2.5 MB 25 s) http://www.footbag.cz/video/cz/vasik12.avi (3.8 MB 37 s) http://www.footbag.cz/video/cz/vasik11.avi (5.0 MB 49s) http://www.footbag.cz/video/cz/spinbuttmax.avi (world record!) From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 21 01:01:11 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06254 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:01:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06073 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:48:06 -0800 Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id PAA01023 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:46:23 -0800 Message-ID: <20011120234622.53444.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.255.211.60] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:46:22 PST Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:46:22 -0800 (PST) From: Shaun Marques Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org --- Jyri Ilama wrote: > Okay, that could be a nice system, but.. > think of hitting a 7 adder after a 1 adder? and > getting 6 extra points? so, > if you hit two 7 add tricks in a row you get 14 > 'points' and if you hit a 7 > adder after a 1 adder you're still getting 14 > points? naah.. :P Although that's a good point, I really like the idea that Jubal had. To settle the score of getting insane amounts of points, I believe that to tack on to the idea of his system, set a specific median for specific competitions. For example.. Open = 3 add as the median; Intermediate = 2 add as the median; Novice = 1 add as the median.. and well, if someone's in the Novice category hitting Gauntlets and PS Whirls, well.. that's downright disgusting. Just my thoughts though. Shred on. -Shaun __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 21 01:02:00 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06267 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:02:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f206.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.206]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06139 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:16:45 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:14:32 -0800 Received: from 161.184.29.33 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:14:31 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.29.33] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Shred videos Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:14:31 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Nov 2001 00:14:32.0187 (UTC) FILETIME=[7E51ECB0:01C17221] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >From: "Ken Somolinos" > > > >-> I think Gyro pickup is called parallax. The name is on the moves list >I'm > > pretty sure. If you don't know the name of a move, look at the moves >list > > on .org first before proposing names. Ya Gyro Pickup's on the movelist, but it's called "Pandora", like the box. Paralax is a Gyro Legover, and Merkon is a Spinning Legover. All are great moves tho. Try to expand on it, hitting Spinning Paradox miraging Pickup, or others, then name the move. There's lots of possible spinning pickup moves that haven't been named yet! Dylan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 21 01:03:41 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06288 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:03:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f172.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.172]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06191 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:47:28 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:45:15 -0800 Received: from 161.184.29.53 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:45:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.29.53] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:45:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Nov 2001 00:45:15.0282 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8E3E720:01C17225] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo Listas! I normally wouldn't respond to a post on a move like a superfly which I totally cannot do, but I figured my two cents won't get me killed this time. From what I've learned on the subject, a Superfly should only get one symposium add. If you hit an infinity-style symposium butterfly, I'm pretty sure you don't get a symposium add (If you do, I'm hitting them more often!). A Superfly is much like a symposium butterfly, except your leg actually rotates around the bag completely. If you watch one on video, it's quite apparent that the leg really only rotates ONCE around the bag. The rest sort of falls into place during the landing. In other words, the second dex isn't really all that symposium, just like the dex in symp. butterfly. A move like Shaft (Symposium DDD), should really get 2 adds, because it's basically a double reverse whirl, but truthfully, the second dex is not a reverse whirl, it's a butterfly. A symposium barrage should SO get an extra add, however, because the leg makes 2 full revolutions around the bag. Yet there's another argument over symposium being confined to the moment you jump up, to the moment you stomp down, and in this case, each happens only once. Yacine's Double symposium Tap would be a case of true double symposium, where the dex leg must plant before the second dexterity. I certainly hope this move gets 2 body adds. NEWay, that's how I percieve symp. Double dexes. PS:Again, adds measure the different components of a move, and not difficulty. Superfly only contains one symposium component, so it only gets one body add. Nuff sed. Dylan >From: "Stan Sagalovskiy" >To: freestyle@list.footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:04:10 -0500 > >Hi, > >I don't particularly enjoy the add discussion myself, as I know many other >people don't. But at the same time, we would all like to improve on it. The >x-dex, in my opinion, is a great addition, fixing atom smashers, varities >of >blur and blizzard (toe, paradox), etc. > >The question I'd like to ask is whether people think that symposium >doubledexes should receive two body adds instead of one. Making superfly, >for example, six adds. While not so apparent with out-to-in dexterities, >say >hitting symposium terrage should (in my eyes) be worth more than four adds. >Another way to look at this is to imagine a flailing symposium butterfly >(same leg for both dexes) receiving six adds, but symposium paradon five - >the difference here being the set. Symposium paradon seems like it should >receive more adds than an atomic symposium butterfly. After all, there are >two symposium dexes. > >I've spoken to quite a few people on this topic, and while some nod others >disagree. I'd like to get other people's opinion on this. Maybe a .. poll? > >Thank you for your time, > >Stan Sagalovskiy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 21 01:04:38 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06309 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:04:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06213 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:51:39 -0800 Received: from ds9.beatricene.com (ds9.beatricene.com [208.15.132.129]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA04466 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:49:55 -0800 Received: from chris-wks.planetquake.com (matt2-wks.beatricene.com [208.15.132.78]) by ds9.beatricene.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAL0nnO20520 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:49:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011120183953.00b1dd80@mail.planetquake.com> X-Sender: shatter@mail.planetquake.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:44:10 -0600 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Chris Holden Subject: [freestyle] updated 4adds database Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Today, I realized that the 4 adds section of our free-style video site had three tricks listed but over 30 videos uploaded. Now it's fixed! If you like Brian McKenzie, you'll love our freestyle moves section: http://www.beatricene.com/footbag/ I'm still editing things if anyone sees any errors let me know. :) Thanks, Chris Holden mailto:shatter@planetquake.com http://www.beatricene.com/footbag/ Calendar of Events: http://www.beatricene.com/cgi-bin/footbag-calendar/calendar.cgi From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 21 23:11:17 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07913 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:11:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07393 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:01:42 -0800 Received: from sdn-ar-002nynyorp317.dialsprint.net ([168.191.122.95] helo=0017407414) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 166Xut-0000wo-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 05:59:56 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c17294$ba78f4e0$5f7abfa8@0017407414> From: "Josh Penney" To: References: <200111212050.MAA07318@list.footbag.org> Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:59:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry to speak clearly but: Stan said all sorts of stuff like this; > The question I'd like to ask is whether people think that symposium > doubledexes should receive two body adds instead of one. Well, that's an interesting question, Stan, and it certainly smells familiar. Anyone feel like visiting the dusty list.org archives for this info? Me neither. If we're talking about when Yacine said: > Double symposium tap and double-symp. atomic same side illusion have been > hit by yours truly. And if Yacine took two jumps then everyone agrees there's no WAY an extra add could be denied. Go Yacine. Montreal Madness. Chris mentioned; > But realisticly, a symposium paradon (and the like) is > deserving of only 1 body add. Because it requires > one initial burst of strength, like any other symposium > move, and one hard landing, just like any other > symposium move. That should settle it. Hm. So the symposium concept is a separate aspect of difficulty and not a modifier of difficulty, eg. the jumping. So it doesn't matter how high you jump or how fast you spin. They have the same value in the eyes of the ADDS. And Dylan typed the following; > A move like Shaft (Symposium DDD), should really get 2 adds, > because it's basically a double reverse whirl, but truthfully, the second > dex is not a reverse whirl, it's a butterfly. A symposium barrage should SO > get an extra add, however, because the leg makes 2 full revolutions around > the bag. So the symposium concept is a modifier of difficulty and not a separate aspect of it, eg the... okay, I see a problem. There's a yellow light flashin where the green one's supposed to be. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but the discrepancy here is of the nature of symposium moves. Symposiumology. Clearly, the question is, 'how does symposium apply to dexterity'. So we need a ruling about how adds are applied in light of the different types of dexterity (half, and whole). Hello? Is there an arbitrator for this? Anyone? Anyone? I would give my own opinion, but since I don't know anything about the x-dex I'd be wasting my time (and yours). I would blame myself, but it's hard to listen and drive at the same time. Dan. Thanks for reading, I probably should have been studying for that midterm. Gas rules. JP From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 21 23:12:40 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07923 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:12:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07727 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:33:57 -0800 Received: from web9804.mail.yahoo.com (web9804.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.214]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id JAA16177 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:32:11 -0800 Message-ID: <20011121173211.7500.qmail@web9804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.34.64.92] by web9804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:32:11 PST Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:32:11 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Munger Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <20011120234622.53444.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I hardly ever respond to the list but I would like to throw my 2 cents into the pond of never ending shred.. Kens idea of a multiplier/modifier seems to be good(as most of them are:). It is harder to hit big tricks to big tricks and one should be rewarded for this some how. The question is how. Maybe if as Jyri has said about a median (guiltless) score of 3 adds for pros you could score it like this 6 move combo : 3 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 5 - 3 You only get the adds/pts for a 3 add trick and lower. anything higher will get the adds and modifier points added to it. #1. 3 pts for the move, =3pts #2. 4 pts for the trick and 1 pt for above the median. =5pts #3. 4 pts for the trick and 1 pt for additional difficulty (4-4) and an additional 1 pt for being above the median. =6pts #4. 4 pts for the trick and 2 pts for the 2 additional 4's from the first, this could go on to infinity adding 1 point for every successive same add move, and 1 more pt for being above the median. =7pts (So another 4 here would net 8pts then 9 and so on) #5. 5 pts for the trick and 1 pt for additional difficulty 2 pts for being above the median. =8pts (perhaps here you should get ALL of the previous pts for the string of 4's) seems fair. 1 time only? #6 3 pts for the trick. =3pts for a total of 32pts So basicaly you get the difference in adds/points between the median and the trick that was just hit. You are also awarded points for increasing the difficulty of the trick from the last trick. The reason for the additional pts for "above the median" is to try and keep it a bit more fair. As to not allow people to go from a 3 to a 6 to a 3 to a 6 and keep gaining the extra points when you have someone else doing all 4's and 5's thus hitting a possibly harder combo but gaining less points. In looking at this I am seeing other things that could happen. Like being rewarded and extra point for sucessive 4's, so all 4's would get you a much higher score than risking a 5 and breaking your string. Perhaps that could be changed to only include 5's and up?? Maybe we should have a predetermined number of tricks in order to come up with some sort of constant? Perhaps up to 30 tricks in 50 seconds. Drops can be addressed my subtracting the median (3pts) for every drop from the total score. I have not done alot of math with this but maybe with the right tweeking from all of the shreddies out there something can become of it.. What I see in this is it rewarding a player that can consistantly hit tricks above the median and giving the players additional points for going bigger.. The BIG con to this is that it will be cumbersum until people get used to it. But isnt it already? This is not a to well thought out thing yet but I had a little time and a littel thought so here it is. Improve on it, tear it apart, talk about it, play with it, see if it wont work or just chuck it?!?. Just another long winded 2 cents:) Paul ps This is assuming the add system is correct and all agree on the adds for a certain trick. --- Shaun Marques wrote: > > --- Jyri Ilama wrote: > > > Okay, that could be a nice system, but.. > > think of hitting a 7 adder after a 1 adder? and > > getting 6 extra points? so, > > if you hit two 7 add tricks in a row you get 14 > > 'points' and if you hit a 7 > > adder after a 1 adder you're still getting 14 > > points? naah.. :P > > Although that's a good point, I really like the > idea that Jubal had. To settle the score of getting > insane amounts of points, I believe that to tack on > to > the idea of his system, set a specific median for > specific competitions. For example.. Open = 3 add as > the median; Intermediate = 2 add as the median; > Novice > = 1 add as the median.. and well, if someone's in > the > Novice category hitting Gauntlets and PS Whirls, > well.. that's downright disgusting. Just my thoughts > though. Shred on. > > -Shaun __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Wed Nov 21 23:13:43 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07936 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:13:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07828 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:54:30 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f192.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.192]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA29521 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:52:44 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:52:43 -0800 Received: from 205.236.144.4 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:52:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.236.144.4] From: "James McCullough" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:52:43 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Nov 2001 21:52:43.0719 (UTC) FILETIME=[D94A7D70:01C172D6] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org word up g's Here's my take on this issue: symposium set symposium moves should MOST definitely get 2 symp bod adds, simply because there are two separate symposiums involved. Double dex symposium moves should remain the way they are (1 symp add) as there is only one sypm component involved. james _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:04:42 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00941 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:04:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08069 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 00:27:55 -0800 Received: from web20503.mail.yahoo.com (web20503.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.138]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id QAA05770 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:26:08 -0800 Message-ID: <20011122002604.92521.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [151.201.208.214] by web20503.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:26:04 PST Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:26:04 -0800 (PST) From: Caleb Abraham Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <000a01c17215$bb9701c0$61b0c240@pinkus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org --- Chris Pinkus wrote: it requires > one initial burst of strength, like any other > symposium > move, and one hard landing, just like any other > symposium move. on that note, i was always wondering if anyone has hit something with 2 jumps for symposium dexes. like a pogo PS mirage. so that you would jump for the symposium stepping set, land, and then jump again for the PS mirage part. and i was wondering how many adds that would be as well? would there be 2 symposium adds for this? sorry to break off the current disscusion a little but it seemed the perfect time to ask. Caleb Abraham Live to Shred, Shred to Live __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:05:42 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00946 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:05:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from c007.snv.cp.net (c007-h008.c007.snv.cp.net [209.228.33.214]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA08110 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 01:26:12 -0800 Received: (cpmta 16081 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2001 17:23:50 -0800 Received: from 64.194.176.97 (HELO pinkus) by smtp.directvinternet.com (209.228.33.214) with SMTP; 21 Nov 2001 17:23:50 -0800 X-Sent: 22 Nov 2001 01:23:50 GMT Message-ID: <000e01c172f4$45e4e520$61b0c240@pinkus> Reply-To: "Chris Pinkus" From: "Chris Pinkus" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:23:20 -0800 Organization: OOPS! Freestyle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "James McCullough" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] > word up g's > Here's my take on this issue: > symposium set symposium moves should MOST definitely get 2 symp bod adds, > simply because there are two separate symposiums involved. Double dex > symposium moves should remain the way they are (1 symp add) as there is only > one sypm component involved. Yes, that is currently the way our ADD system handles them. That's why the ADD system is so cool!! No further discussion of symposium is needed. Chris Pinkus From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:06:30 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00964 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:06:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA08575 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 06:47:12 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GN605K01W3FKB@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:45:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail.mscd.edu ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GN605K1AW3FK6@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:45:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:29:53 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] To: freestyle Message-id: <3BFA718E@webmail.mscd.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I probably should have paid more attention to this thread, but some of it didn't make sense to me when it started. What I gathered originally was that there was possibly a problem with moves like superfly getting 6 adds because it's a double dexing symposium and what not. So unless I'm way off let me say this. Moves like superfly, superduperfly, blacula, dolimite, shaft, and torcherack are all single body add symposium moves because both dexes are done on a single jump (i.e. one movement of the body). Moves such as double symposium (ds) tap, ds slap, and ds illusion, have two body add symposiums because each dex is done with a separate jump (i.e. two moves of the body). Make sense? Already been said? Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:07:56 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00988 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:07:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08934 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:54:37 -0800 From: "Kenny Shults" Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com (imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.106]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id GAA01700 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 06:52:48 -0800 Received: from KenShults@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.120.7897107 (30972) for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:52:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <120.7897107.292e6b33@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:52:35 EST Subject: [freestyle] Another Difficult Thought To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 20 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org A draft difficulty scoring framework - Difficulty Score is comprised of the following two major components: 1. Trick Difficulty 2. Link Difficulty Trick Difficulty = The sum of the squares of each trick's Adds divided by the number of tricks. Example 1 Combo = Butterfly (3) -> Ripwalk (4) -> Blurry Whirl (5) = (3*3) + (4*4) + (5*5) = 9 + 16 + 25 = 50 divided by 3 tricks = 16.67 Example 2 Combo = Legbeater (4) -> Blur (4) -> Paradon (4) = (4*4) + (4*4) + (4*4) = 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 divided by 3 tricks = 16 Option - Take the square root of the result to convert to a more familiar "Add-like" score. This would result in Example 1 Trick Difficulty = 4.08 and Example 2 Trick Difficulty = 4.00 Link Difficulty = The Sum of the product of the Adds of each pair of linked tricks divided by the total number of links. Example 1 Combo = Butterfly (3) -> Ripwalk (4) -> Blurry Whirl (5) = (3*4) + (4*5) = 12 + 20 = 32 divided by 2 links = 16 Example 2 Combo = Legbeater (4) -> Blur (4) -> Paradon (4) = (4*4) + (4*4) = 16 + 16 = 32 divided by 3 links = 16 Other Examples - A Butterfly (3) to Whirlwind (6) would be an 18 Link whereas a Blurry Whirl (5) to Whirlwind (6) would be a 30 Link. Summary - This would be easy to implement since the existing method of add counting supplies all of the necessary inputs to the system. No radical overhaul required. It rewards bigger individual tricks and provides a method for assessing combo difficulty. The relative proportion of the two components in the Total Difficulty Score would still need to be determined. I would see a 50/50 split. Kenny Shults From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:09:53 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01008 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:09:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA09339 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 20:12:48 -0800 Received: (qmail 19133 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2001 20:10:55 -0000 Received: from buzz.sonic.net (208.201.224.78) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 22 Nov 2001 20:10:55 -0000 Received: from impax (adsl-209-204-144-74.sonic.net [209.204.144.74]) by buzz.sonic.net (8.11.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id fAMKAtA17341 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:10:55 -0800 X-envelope-info: From: "Joseph Crain" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:24:34 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200111222050.MAA08863@list.footbag.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo guys, I think this a very important area of discussion for the future of footbag. Let me start by saying I think that the current ADD system and performance rating system is awsome. The ADD system is vary easy to learn and makes sense to newbies. The performance rating DOES take into account the difficulty of a routine via the add ratio component. But as with anything, change and evolution are both needed and healty. Here are my ideas on how/why anything should be changed if it is to be changed: - with the evolution of new ideas, and shredders pushing themsleves to the limits to hit new moves, it has become clear to me that the difficulty of a move is not always based on how many ADDS a move has...There is some concurrent discussion on the list that proves this. I really have no idea how to settle this, but what the heck...heres my shot: maybe there could be a new difficulty attribute for moves that modified the ADDS. Like for example (in my opinion): butterfly: -1 difficulty + 3 ADDS = 2 point move atom smasher: +1 difficulty + 3 ADDS = 4 point move this way you could use the very fundamental and easy to understand ADD system as the base, and let all the x-dex, symposium double dex, whatever fall into the difficuly modifier category...of course people will always disagree on the diffifulty and what a move deserves....that brings me to my next thought: -Is there any possibility of creating some sort of a superior footbag committee whose purpose is to govern the rules of footbag? maybe 9 or so memebers voted on by the footbag community. they could be given upmost authority make changes based on a majority or possibly (ugh) a conensus of the committee. Initially they could review the entire moves list, then monthly/quarterly they could meet on IRC or something and review new ideas for changes. Just a thought...because 9 experts discussing an issue might be easier than 100+. Does something like this exist already? Every major sport has this. -Next, and this is yet another controversial area, is that the system should be something that is appealing to the public. I would like to see footbag grow to be a widley viewed and Publicized sport...now i know that this means corporate involvement, which i HATE, but id like to think we are using them as much as they use us... Anyway, for people to be really enthusiastic about watching footbag there needs to be a little candy: multipliers and combos are great candy...they add exitement and twist to the scoring system. Eventually routines/shred will have live updates on screen showing move names and difficulty as they are being hit, add in some neat graphics when the combos get crazy, watch those numbers multiply and you get a crowd that is jumping, screaming, and coming back for more! -Last, as far as bonuses for linking big moves, I agree with paul, there should be a difficulty threshold, and for every move past the first you spend above that threshold you get added bonuses/multipliers. Hope im not too out of line, shred on -joe From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:11:05 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01040 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:11:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09397 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 22:00:11 -0800 From: "Matthew Cross" Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com (imo-m10.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.165]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA17480 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 13:58:20 -0800 Received: from MatthewL329@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.ab.12ba5b96 (16486) for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:58:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:58:12 EST Subject: [freestyle] Kingston, Ontario kickers? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dear Canadian Freestylers, Is there anyone in the Kingston, Ontario are interested in getting together for a session in the next few days? please get back to me personally with names, towns of residence, and phone numbers so I can get in touch with you when I'm in the area. Thanks a lot, I hope I get some responses. Matthew Cross Rochester Footbag Association Rochester, NY From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:12:14 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01065 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:12:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09626 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:01:14 -0800 Received: from pd2mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.108]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with ESMTP id <0GN8000ICAPXER@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:58:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml3so (pn2ml3so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.147]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with ESMTP id <0GN8009IQAPZOP@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:58:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from k1 ([24.70.223.209]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with SMTP id <0GN800FGEANQLA@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:57:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:00:03 -0800 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Message-id: <003d01c173ba$2f274aa0$d1df4618@gv.shawcable.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20011121173211.7500.qmail@web9804.mail.yahoo.com> <000c01c172f2$046d2b40$6501a8c0@gv.shawcable.net> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org "Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:13:47 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01113 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:13:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09645 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:22:53 -0800 Received: from web20704.mail.yahoo.com (web20704.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.177]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id RAA25338 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:21:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20011123012102.83555.qmail@web20704.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.144.74] by web20704.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:21:02 PST Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:21:02 -0800 (PST) From: lon smith Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: Paul Munger , freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <20011121173211.7500.qmail@web9804.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org About what Paul Munger said about scoring. > about a median (guiltless) score of 3 adds for pros > you could score it like this 6 move combo > : 3 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 5 - 3 I think it seems like every shred competition I've ever been in has extremely accurate results. I don't see any need for change in the current system other that adding the x-dex add. Competition should be judged just like in the worldwide olympics. Put ten Judges up there and tell them to give a 0-10 point score. Have required elements like in Ice Skating. For example: If one does not Hit any Paradox category moves they may not get more than an 8. This would get us ready to step up and show the world that we can put on a tournament with any judges and get accurate results. Lon's two cents __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Sat Nov 24 23:15:34 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01183 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:15:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09655 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:28:38 -0800 Received: from web20707.mail.yahoo.com (web20707.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.180]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id RAA25576 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:26:48 -0800 Message-ID: <20011123012630.89812.qmail@web20707.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.144.74] by web20707.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:26:30 PST Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:26:30 -0800 (PST) From: lon smith Subject: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Lon Technical Post are you ready?? SYMPOSIUM: A symposium tapping symposium butterfly is a six. Symposium Paradon has the same jobs notation. Same jobs notation should equal same adds. Agreed??? PARADOX X-DEX: (What is the dictionary's definition of x-dex?) Any move that is paradox but does not fall under the paradox category.(That's my definition for now) SO LISTEN IN AND CHECK IT OUT: If an atomic mirage gets x-dex so should paradox atomic mirage right? Miraging mirage has x-dex Miraging whirl has x-dex Atomic mirage has x-dex Atomic whirl has x-dex Atomic same whirl does not have x-dex?? atomic torque has an x-dex but atomic drifter does not?? atomic whirl has x-dex but atomic blender does not?? There are many different stalls you can do off of an x-dex move. But which ones deserve the x-dex add? Tapping Moves: atomic same blender atomic same whirl atomic same inside out pick up atomic same mirage atomic same drifter atomic same torque ATOMIC MOVES: atomic torque atomic drifter atomic mirage atomic in out leg over atomic whirl atomic blender Which of the previous tapping and atomic moves aren't hard enough to deserve an x-dex??? These are very fine lines. But I'd say these are the unworthy moves. Atomic same inside out pick up Atomic same mirage But what if you added paradox to the tapping and atomic in out dex moves then what becomes legit??? Paradox Atomic same inside out pick up Paradox Atomic same mirage These two same moves are once again the easiest two. paradox atomic same mirage is easy 1)paradox 2)out in dexing 3)in out same dexing 4)op toe stall total = 4 adds paradox atomic same whirl is really hard(6 adds) 1)paradox 2)out in dexing 3)same in out x-dexing 4)dexterity 5)cross body 6)clipper stall total = 6 adds It makes sense to me that once you add paradox to the x-dex system it still works. No matter how complicated it seems to get it's still a good way to represent difficulty.(Just like Paradox) SPINNING X-DEX:(just like spinning paradox it works) gyro paradox miraging symposium x-dexing mirage. Kenny Shults 1)spinning 2)paradox in out 3)dexing 4)symposium 5)oposite x-dexing 6)in out dexing 7)oposite toe stall total = 6 Adds(Nice one Kenny) gyro paradox miraging symposium x-dexing miraging osis 1)spinning 2)paradox 3)in out dexing 4)oposite symposium 5)x-dexing 6)in out dexing 7)osis(always worth 3 adds) total = 9 adds(Nice one Kenny) NUCLEAR BREAKDOWN: paradox atomic inspinning mirage 1)paradox out in 2)dexing 3)spinning into the move spotting the bag and 4)x-dexing 5)in out dexing 6)toe stall total = 6 adds system works once again even when the spin is in the middle of the move. Anyhow That's It!! What is a supersurging symposium your mom worth?? (Just curious because I've been linking a lot of these.) gyro miraging paradox reverse miraging ducking oposite symposium butterflying butterfly clipper stall. 1)spinning 2)in out dexing 3)paradox 4)out in dexing 5)ducking 6)oposite symposium 7)x-dexing 8)out in dexing 9)same out in dexing 10)cross body 11)clipper delay total = 11 adds Well I think that just about does it. That is just my PERSONAL OPINION. Two moves don't fit. Pogo anything does not receive the initial symposium add. Nor does dada curve receive an add for the symposium butterfly ending. My two cents. Lon Skyler Smith __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 26 15:27:07 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04629 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:27:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f42.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.42]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01730 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 03:12:43 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 19:10:57 -0800 Received: from 216.27.144.66 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 03:10:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.27.144.66] From: "Stan Sagalovskiy" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] symposium doubledexes [adds] Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:10:57 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Nov 2001 03:10:57.0701 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD6E2D50:01C1755E] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org To sum up - the real question was, "is symposium a characteristic of the dex or the move?" It seems that an overwhelming majority (100%) feel that it's a characteristic of the move and thus should get only 1 add. Double symposium tap is thought of as two symposium moves. Symposium barrage would be stuck at 4 because of the initial "jump". Most people argued for superfly getting 1 symposium add because you fall into the second dex. Maybe the question is whether full dexes are more important. X-dex says yes. Note that symposium toe reverse barrage would be 4 adds. nothing more to say on the topic, Stan the question man Sagalovskiy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 26 15:27:49 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04634 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:27:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02256 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 07:41:44 -0800 Received: from web9808.mail.yahoo.com (web9808.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.34]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id XAA24720 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:40:31 -0800 Message-ID: <20011125074022.76800.qmail@web9808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.214.18.105] by web9808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:40:22 PST Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:40:22 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Munger Subject: Re: [freestyle] Another Difficult Thought To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <120.7897107.292e6b33@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ken does it AGAIN!! I Think everyone should sit down and take a look at this. It looks to be a much easier and promising system. I ran some combo's though it and all seems quite fair. I wont go into details (do this for yourself to see) compare the 2 combo's: Trick Difficulty combo #1 5-4-4-4-5=22/98/16.33 combo #2 6-3-4-4-5=22/102/17 Link Difficulty Combo #1 5-4-4-4-5=22/72/18 Combo #2 6-3-4-4-5=22/66/16.5 Results Combo #1 16.33/18 Combo #2 17/16.5 Combo #2 According to the scoring wins the trick difficulty by virtue of the 6 add move. But as you can see combo #1 wins in link difficulty by virtue of not going below a 4 add trick. But also notice that combo #2 is (punished?) for hitting the 3 out of the 6. I did further math and found in the linking catagory, if you change the combo around and link the 5 to the 6 in combo #2 your score moves up. I also did a bunch of other mixes and came up with differing results. But all seemed fair. I urge all who are interested to look at this as in my humble opinion this works.. and well. Paul --- Kenny Shults wrote: > A draft difficulty scoring framework - > > Difficulty Score is comprised of the following two > major components: > > 1. Trick Difficulty > 2. Link Difficulty > > Trick Difficulty = The sum of the squares of each > trick's Adds divided by the > number of tricks. > > Example 1 Combo = Butterfly (3) -> Ripwalk (4) -> > Blurry Whirl (5) > = (3*3) + (4*4) + (5*5) = 9 + 16 + 25 = 50 divided > by 3 tricks = 16.67 > > Example 2 Combo = Legbeater (4) -> Blur (4) -> > Paradon (4) > = (4*4) + (4*4) + (4*4) = 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 divided > by 3 tricks = 16 > > Option - Take the square root of the result to > convert to a more familiar > "Add-like" score. This would result in Example 1 > Trick Difficulty = 4.08 and > Example 2 Trick Difficulty = 4.00 > > Link Difficulty = The Sum of the product of the Adds > of each pair of linked > tricks divided by the total number of links. > > Example 1 Combo = Butterfly (3) -> Ripwalk (4) -> > Blurry Whirl (5) > = (3*4) + (4*5) = 12 + 20 = 32 divided by 2 links = > 16 > > Example 2 Combo = Legbeater (4) -> Blur (4) -> > Paradon (4) > = (4*4) + (4*4) = 16 + 16 = 32 divided by 3 links = > 16 > > Other Examples - A Butterfly (3) to Whirlwind (6) > would be an 18 Link whereas > a Blurry Whirl (5) to Whirlwind (6) would be a 30 > Link. > > Summary - This would be easy to implement since the > existing method of add > counting supplies all of the necessary inputs to the > system. No radical > overhaul required. It rewards bigger individual > tricks and provides a method > for assessing combo difficulty. The relative > proportion of the two components > in the Total Difficulty Score would still need to be > determined. I would see > a 50/50 split. > > Kenny Shults __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 26 15:29:56 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04655 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:29:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02987 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 19:35:45 -0800 Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA07418 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:34:27 -0800 Received: from dave ([64.230.78.138]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20011125193413.UKSQ18252.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@dave> for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:34:13 -0500 Message-ID: <001401c175e7$ee9dd1e0$0b01010a@dave> From: "Dave Reid" To: References: <120.7897107.292e6b33@aol.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Another Difficult Thought Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:32:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Summary - This would be easy to implement since the existing method of add > counting supplies all of the necessary inputs to the system. No radical > overhaul required. It rewards bigger individual tricks and provides a method > for assessing combo difficulty. The relative proportion of the two components > in the Total Difficulty Score would still need to be determined. I would see > a 50/50 split. It seems to me like this just pushes players more toward the least risky high add moves. I think a new scoring system really needs to reward players for higher difficulty. I don't think the add system can be used as a base, especially for defining link difficulty. Dave From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 26 15:32:37 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04680 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:32:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03890 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:51:33 -0800 Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id EAA04740 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 04:50:15 -0800 Received: from laxerone@netscape.net by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.c7.131d2b6 (22706) for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.com (mow-d01.webmail.aol.com [205.188.138.65]) by air-in06.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILININ63-1126075009; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:50:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:50:09 -0500 From: LaxerOne@netscape.net (Jan Zimmermann) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Message-ID: <431518E4.0BC64E35.0078AB1E@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org lon smith wrote: >Competition should be judged just like in the >worldwide olympics. Put ten Judges up there and tell >them to give a 0-10 point score. >Have required elements like in Ice Skating. For >example: If one does not Hit any Paradox category >moves they may not get more than an 8. > >This would get us ready to step up and show the world >that we can put on a tournament with any judges and >get accurate results. I must say that I agree with lon's thought on the most part. What we need for ROUTINES is a scoring system that is simple. In my opinion the judging system we use today is trying to be too objective. Enabeling people to do a split second foreheadstall and getting their "unusual surface" point for it is a joke. Routines shouldn't be about maxing cards but about having a healthy balance between entertaining the audience and showing your best athletic abilities. Today's focus is too much on the technical part of the sport which is emphasised by this discussion, a call for raising the maximum Nr. of points for difficulty at the last IFC meeting and routines turning into a 2min shred contest. In a shred contest I can see trying to be as objective as possible because it's only about difficulty. You want to do as many tricks as possible in a certain amount of time. Suggestions like Kenny's last post have been good and I believe incorporating combo multiplyers or something would help. A routine however should not be as stressed as a 30sec shred. We need an audience to be able to follow a routine and give it time to react to the presentation. Icescaters do not do a 5sec piroutte just to show that they can do it, they do a 20sec pirouette to give the audience a chance to react. They don't think "sh*%t I'm loosing time, I won't be able to max my difficulty". That is what's wrong about this continuous discussion about difficulty if it is applied to routines. Yes, people are maxing difficulty scores, but noone has ever maxed a presentation score. Personally I think the scores for presentation were even highly overrated at last worlds, (no offence) but I believe we are far from seeing a player truly entertaining an audience. Anyhow I think rather than encouraging players to continuously go for more and more difficult routines we should start thinking about giving them a reason to start being more creative in their routines. Jan Zimmermann P.S.Kenny Wrote: >1. Trick Difficulty >2. Link Difficulty >Trick Difficulty = The sum of the squares of each trick's Adds divided by >the >number of tricks. >Example 1 Combo = Butterfly (3) -> Ripwalk (4) -> Blurry Whirl (5) >= (3*3) + (4*4) + (5*5) = 9 + 16 + 25 = 50 divided by 3 tricks = 16.67 etc. A problem with your suggestion is still the usual: adds alone don't determine the absolute difficulty of a trick or combo...hitting torque>spinning butterfly or torque>flapper stall is (I believe) much more difficult than hitting pixie butterfly>rippwalk. And that's just 3 to 4 add moves...Your suggestion as I understand it would again get people to perform easy linkable high add moves in order to win. Going for unusual combos then might get you the respect of the audience but not the respect of the scoring system... -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 26 17:18:10 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05297 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:18:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05284 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:14:36 -0800 Received: from foundationcomputing.net (donorport.org [207.160.174.56]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA13699 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:13:17 -0800 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with ESMTP id 722116 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:07:45 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:13:36 -0600 Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v475) From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <431518E4.0BC64E35.0078AB1E@netscape.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.475) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Can't ... hold ... back ... my typing fingers ... any ... longer ... ---- Who among us feels UN-able to watch a few players shred and say who hit the phat? Now, for those of you who don't trust your own judging, exactly what does abstraction (current/proposed mathematical scoring systems) do for you? 1) it breaks down tracking tasks so each judge can focus on a subset of components, much like an assembly line. 2) it provides some common standard each player can strive to meet 3) it may help judges be less influenced by personal feelings and favoratisms Feel free to add more if you think of them, but my goal is to devalue these benefits... Few people can argue against the superior efficiency of assembly lines, but I might argue against any superior quality of assembly lines. Many high-quality luxury vehicles are manufactured by a small team of workers who do many different assembly tasks from start to finish; Automotive industry studies show that this method *does* produce more reliable vehicles. If you don't trust yourself as a judge to be able to make an overall assessment, what makes you feel more confident that you - or anyone else - can do a better job as assembly line workers? Efficiency alone is not the goal. As for standards, I never did want footbag freestyle to be standardized. I still don't. I've analyzed quite a few scorecards in my time, and the blunt truth is that favoratism still exists even in supposedly 'objective' composition cards. The more favorably judges see a player, the more attention they give to that player, the more likely they are to see that player do good things, and the more likely that player is to get a higher score than another player who is less esteemed. Abstraction hides favoratism behind a bunch of numbers, and it may have some mitigating effect, but it does not, never has, and never will overcome favoratism. ---- Now, for those of you who *DO* trust your own comprehensive judgement of freestylers, why not throw all that complication in the trash and settle for a simple ranking system? It beats the snot out of component breakdown in terms of efficiency. It replaces an external standard with a dynamic composite of the best our current freestyle community has to offer. It also strips away the layers of obfuscation that the current system uses to hide favoratism. It can be kind of scary to have to simply say, "I think player X was the best, and player Y was the second best OVERALL". But, those are judgements we already make day in and day out, on any given shred session, that so-and-so was the hottest shredder that day. Maybe by being up-front and honest about our opinions, favoratism will have even fewer hiding places. ---- Finally, let's think about how important it is to choose winners and losers. There are certainly quite a few people who think competition and picking winners and losers is important and necessary. I used to believe that myself, but after 20 years of kicking, I don't believe it any more. The practical effect of the whole competition scene right now is to re-distribute (very) small sums of money between fellow kickers! We pick winners and losers for ourselves, not anyone else. It is fun to get together with peers and find out who's got the hot legs this time, and I think it is healthy for us to hold competitions for ourselves. But not everything everyone does has to be turned into a competition. There are competitions for just about everything: dog shows, dancing, bicycling, acting, sheep shearing, corn husking, etc., etc., etc. But for so many of these things, the competition is just a small diversion and not the main reason people get involved in the activity or the main reason for the activity's popularity. Most people have dogs because they just want a pet; few pets ever see competition. The majority of dancers dance because it is fun and tends to stimulate sexual activity. For every person in the Tour De France, there are thousands of people who ride bikes just because they like it or use it for transportation and never enter a single competition. I could blather on, but hopefully you all see my point: competition is *not* the springboard that makes these activities popular! In reality, activities that are popular because of competitions are the exception, not the rule. What makes us think footbag should be another one of those rare exceptions? I would much rather see footbag thrive as a fun, personally rewarding, primarily cooperative social activity where the peer competitions are small and unimportant. That's how footbag got started, and that's how it primarily exists today. The idea of footbag existing on the importance of competition disgusts me. ---- Moral: Flush all the angst and sweat over competition. When we do get together for peer competition, use simple, straightforward methods to pick those winners and losers. Don't take the results seriously (nobody else does). -Derrick "I guess that means I don't think footbag is a sport" Fogle From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 26 21:38:26 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05633 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:38:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05619 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:33:21 -0800 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA24203 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:32:02 -0800 Received: from 24-205-34-189.glen-dyn.charterpipeline.com ([24.205.34.189] helo=sam) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 168TM9-00059s-00; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:32:01 -0800 Message-ID: <006101c176c1$679a0f80$bd22cd18@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: "lon smith" , References: <20011123012630.89812.qmail@web20707.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:29:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Lon Technical Post are you ready?? NICE! > > SYMPOSIUM: > A symposium tapping symposium butterfly is a six. > Symposium Paradon has the same jobs notation. > Same jobs notation should equal same adds. Agreed??? If we compare paradon and symposium paradon it is generally accepted that the symposium paradon gets one extra add for symposium. The question is, should it get one or two? Look at the second dex in both moves. In paradon, while the one leg does the second dex, the other leg is planted on the ground. In symposium paradon, while one leg does the second dex, the other leg IS NOT planted on the ground. There IS a difference in the way the second dex is done AND one way is harder than the other. This extra amount of difficulty should be rewarded with another body add (symposium). but.. what if.... :::bleep::: Is it not a possibility to upgrade the add system to more accurately reflect difficulty and then use something like Kenny's "Another Difficult Thought" to determine an overall value to be used in shred competitions? Eric Wulff's x dex is a really awesome example of an upgrade to ADDS. Maybe modifications are necessary as well. The only way that major changes would be accepted is probably if they came from Mr. Shultz himself? Either way, half adds might be the key. Or something completely new needs to be merged with the add system. I don't think that the add system is a total failure in distinguishing difficulty. The main problem is that we have a way of measuring the number of components in a move but not a way to measure the difficulty of this component after that component. It would have to be similar to Kenny's Link system for adds, but work with components instead. These are just ideas. I'll give it some more thought. ...thought.... Here are some three add moves. The goal is to distinguish difficulty between all of these. clip set DLO clip > op in > op out > same toe bubba beater clip > op out > op out > same toe fudge toe > same out > op out > op toe toe set gyro illusion toe > backspin > same out > op toe ducking xbody sole kick clip > duck > op flapper kick clip > op in [DEX] > op out [DEX] > same toe [DEL] clip > op out [DEX] > op out [DEX] > same toe [DEL] toe > same out [DEX] > op out [DEX] > op toe [DEL] toe > backspin [BOD] > same out [DEX] > op toe [DEL] clip > duck [BOD] > op flapper kick [XBD] [UNS] -- I will refer to what is after each > as 1 movement. examples: > duck [BOD] > op flapper kick [XBD] [UNS] -- I think a good start is: For each add element a movement has over 1, the entire add value of that movement increases by .5, not 1. For example, in clip > duck [BOD] > op flapper kick [XBD] [UNS] > op flapper kick [XBD] [UNS] would get 1 add for the first element, but only .5 for the second.. this principle in action mirage toe > op in [DEX] > op toe [DEL] [DEX] 1 + [DEL] 1 = 2 adds symposium mirage toe > (no plant while) op in [DEX] [BOD]> op toe [DEL] ([DEX] 1 + [BOD] .5) 1.5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 This would also make clippers worth less while still being worth more than an inside stall. But wait, there's more. Something needs to be done that enables us to distinguish between full dexes and half dexes all the time. Is x-dex only from toe? Take clip set DLO and bubba beater. I would say that bubba beater is harder, and even though everyone has their own individual strengths and weaknesses, most everyone would probably agree. Was that an ambiguous statement? The elements of a dex 1. Is the dex a full dex or a half dex? 2. If the dex is a full dex in a multiple dex move, does it need to be completed BEFORE the next movement can be started. Most dexes are full dexes so this can be boiled down to "Does the dex need to be completed before the next movement is started?" If it does, then call it a full dex. If it doesn't then call it a half dex. Examples: In a pixie legover the second dex can be started before the first dex completes it's full rotation. However, in a fairy legover the first dex must be completed before the second dex can be started. I think this is sound theory. How can we quantify this? [HD] = half dex = .5 [FD] = full dex = 1 pixie legover toe > same in [HD] > op out [HD] > same toe [DEL] [HD] .5 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 2 adds fairy legover toe > same out [FD] > op out [HD] > same toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 adds As far as paradox is concerned: drifter clip > op in [HD] > same clip [XBD] [DEL] [HD] .5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 2 adds whirl clip > op in [FD] > same clip [XBD] [DEL] [FD] 1 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 2.5 adds The whirl gets a full dex because the motion has to be complete before the clipper can be attempted. Think about whirling swirl, you have to completely whirl the bag before you can swirl it otherwise your feet will collide. This is why most ankle rolls happen on blurry whirls or whirling moves. A drifter is easier than a whirl. But, watch what happens when you make both those moves paradox. paradox drifter clip > same in [PDX] [HD] > same clip [XBD] [DEL] [PDX] [HD] 1.5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 3 adds paradox whirl clip > same in [PDX] [FD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [PDX] [FD] 1.5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 3 adds Even though the whirl has a full dex and the drifter has a half dex they are still both worth 3 because the paradox and the dex occur in the same movement. To assign value we just give 1 add for the first move element and .5 for the second move element. So, when a movement has more than one element in it, we are able to disregard all rules accept for that one, which makes things a bit easier, at least in that respect. As far as osis is concerned osis set > clip [BOD] [XBD] [DEL] [BOD] [XBD] [DEL] = 2 adds We put the spin in the same movement as everything else because a traditional osis is all one movement. This is cool because now we can separate this from a gyro clipper. gyro clipper clip > backspin [BOD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [BOD] 1 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 2.5 adds This upgrade encourages genuine combos. Lastly, [BOD] is too general. [BSP] = backspin [NSP] = inspinning [FLY] = jumping (as in flying clipper, dragonfly, etc.) [SYM] = symposium (basically the same as FLY but off of one leg instead) [DCK] = ducking [DIV] = diving Let's combine all that and test the upgraded system on some moves. inside stall set > inside [DEL] [DEL] = 1 add clipper set > clip [XBD] [DEL] [XBD] [DEL] = 1.5 adds flying clipper set > clip [XBD] [FLY] [XBD] [FLY] = 1.5 adds legover toe > op out [HD] > same toe [DEL] [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 1.5 adds mirage toe > op in [HD] > op toe [DEL] [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 1.5 adds illusion toe > op out [FD] > op toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [DEL] 1 = 2 adds osis set > clip [BSP] [XBD] [DEL] [BSP] [XBD] [DEL] = 2 adds flying flapper set > clip [XBD] [FLY] [UNS] [XBD] [FLY] [UNS] = 2 adds pixie legover toe > same in [HD] > op out [HD] > same toe [DEL] [HD] .5 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 2 adds fairy same mirage toe > same out [HD] > same in [HD] > op toe [DEL] [HD] .5 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 2 adds symposium mirage toe > op in [SYM] [HD] > op toe [DEL] [SYM] [HD] 1.5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 adds pixie illusion (smudge) toe > same in [HD] > op out [FD] > op toe [DEL] [HD] .5 + [FD] 1 + [DEL] + 1 = 2.5 adds fairy legover toe > same out [FD] > op out [HD] > same toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 adds fairy same legover toe > same out [FD] > same out [HD] > same toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 adds paradox mirage clip > same in [PDX] [HD] > op toe [DEL] [PDX] [HD] 1.5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 adds butterfly toe > same out [HD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [HD] 1 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 2.5 adds spinning clipper clip > backspin [BSP] > clip [XBD] [DEL] [BSP] 1 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 2.5 adds double pixie (terrage) toe > same in [FD] > same in [HD] > op toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 adds double around the world toe > same in [FD] > same in [FD] > same toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [FD] 1 + [DEL] 1 = 3 adds fairy illusion (fudge) toe > same out [FD] > op out [FD] > op toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [FD] 1 + [DEL] 1 = 3 adds paradon toe > op out [FD] > same out [HD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 3 adds barfly clip > same out [FD] > same out [HD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 3 adds blur clip > op in [HD] > op in [PDX] [HD] > op toe [DEL] [HD] .5 + [PDX] [HD] 1.5 + [DEL] 1 = 3 adds Even though blur has 2 half dexes, it still gets 3 adds because the second half dex is paradox making it get 1.5 adds, 1 for the [PDX] and .5 for the [HD]. spinning butterfly clip > backspin [BSP] > op out [HD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [BSP] 1 + [HD] .5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 3 adds triage clip > op in [FD] > same in [FD] > same in [HD] > op toe [DEL] [FD] 1 + [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 3.5 adds scorpian's tail clip > backspin [SP] > op out [FD] > same out [HD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [BSP] 1 + [FD] 1 + [HD] .5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 4 adds symposium scorpians tail clip > backspin [BOD] > (no plant while) op out [FD] [BOD] > same out [HD] > op clip [XBD] [DEL] [BOD] 1 + [FD] [BOD] 1.5 + [HD] .5 + [XBD] [DEL] 1.5 = 4.5 adds -- My head hurts and I'm hungry. MAD SHOUT OUTS TO LON, RICHIE, CHAD, ELLIS, BRYAN, PINKUS, CAM JASON CROOK, and TOMMY Hilfiggar for making great underwear. Sam "The Decapitator" Colclough From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Mon Nov 26 22:28:02 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05717 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:28:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05703 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:22:32 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f83.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.83]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA26579; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:21:12 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:09:48 -0800 Received: from 128.148.209.72 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:09:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [128.148.209.72] From: "Ken Somolinos" To: sam@footbag.org, lonamithicus@yahoo.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:09:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Nov 2001 22:09:48.0589 (UTC) FILETIME=[1039FDD0:01C176C7] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all, Sam did a nice write up with examples to explain his system. I think that's always a good idea when presenting a new system, so people can see through examples if the system is a rough gauge of difficulty or not. I haven't really digested it all, but Sam wrote one thing which i disagree with however: > >If we compare paradon and symposium paradon it is generally accepted that >the symposium paradon gets one extra add for symposium. The question is, >should it get one or two? Look at the second dex in both moves. In paradon, >while the one leg does the second dex, the other leg is planted on the >ground. In symposium paradon, while one leg does the second dex, the other >leg IS NOT planted on the ground. There IS a difference in the way the >second dex is done AND one way is harder than the other. call >it a full dex. If it doesn't then call it a half dex. Actually, the paradon example isn't true. if you slow-mo a video of anybody doing a clean barfly or paradon, you will see that when the second dex is executed, the other leg is already in the air getting ready for the stall. Same thing for paradox whirl. At the moment when the last dex is occurring, both legs are in the air. Many people have trouble hitting pdx whirl and barfly, because they try and keep the stall leg on the ground even as the final dex occurs, but in reality both legs are off the ground when the dex occurs. Notice that this does not affect the question of symposium. But I thought I should point out that a freeze frame of a paradon/barfly/pdx whirl will show both legs in the air when the final dex occurs. Peace, CF _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Tue Nov 27 21:41:40 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA06895 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:41:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05896 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:14:30 -0800 Received: from femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.141]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA31830 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:13:10 -0800 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([65.10.4.236]) by femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011127001306.ORPR25332.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:13:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3C02DB72.ACE2BCE4@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:16:50 -0600 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds References: <20011123012630.89812.qmail@web20707.mail.yahoo.com> <006101c176c1$679a0f80$bd22cd18@charterpipeline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all. In regards to this symposium thing... First off, let me say that I think a dex needs to be a "complete" dex to get the symposium add. This means that the leg has to go around the bag - not over it. What I'm getting at here is that a pogo set ( clip > (no plant while) op in ) is not a complete dex and therefore doesn't get the symposium add. Likewise, a symposium butterfly isn't a complete dex and doesn't get the add. That's why pogo pdx mirage and dada are 4s and not 5s. With this reasoning, it is clear that superfly and all its variants only get one symposium - the second dex isn't "complete" enough to warrant the second one. To use an earlier example, a symposium reverse barrage should get two symposiums because both of the dexes are complete. I stole the whole "complete" dex thing from Wulff's x-dex, and I think it applies rather well to symposium moves. There is one problem that I see - a regular clipper set symp mirage isn't really a complete dex either... But hey. Until Steve posts his thing about plants and stuff, this is the best I can do. -Derric DFC Sam Colclough wrote: > > > Lon Technical Post are you ready?? > NICE! > > > > > SYMPOSIUM: > > A symposium tapping symposium butterfly is a six. > > Symposium Paradon has the same jobs notation. > > Same jobs notation should equal same adds. Agreed??? > > If we compare paradon and symposium paradon it is generally accepted that > the symposium paradon gets one extra add for symposium. The question is, > should it get one or two? Look at the second dex in both moves. In paradon, > while the one leg does the second dex, the other leg is planted on the > ground. In symposium paradon, while one leg does the second dex, the other > leg IS NOT planted on the ground. There IS a difference in the way the > second dex is done AND one way is harder than the other. This extra amount > of difficulty should be rewarded with another body add (symposium). but.. > what if.... > > :::bleep::: > > > > Sam "The Decapitator" Colclough From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 29 01:12:30 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA08553 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:12:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08341 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:59:51 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA31933 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:58:26 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GNJ01F010T1DF@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:58:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail.mscd.edu ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GNJ01ECA0T04H@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:58:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:42:43 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <3C03E38D@webmail.mscd.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org WOW!!! I just finally had time to go over Sam's whole post and understand it. He sure put a lot of work into it. Let me just say that I am a big fan of half adds. The parts that I disagree with are in regards to half dexes. In Sam's proposal half dexes are only worth .5 add and there is some inconsistency as to what constitutes a half dex. Sam Wrote: >I think a good start is: For each add element a movement has over 1, the >entire add value of that movement increases by .5, not 1. >this principle in action >mirage >toe > op in [DEX] > op toe [DEL] >[DEX] 1 + [DEL] 1 = 2 adds >symposium mirage >toe > (no plant while) op in [DEX] [BOD]> op toe [DEL] >([DEX] 1 + [BOD] .5) 1.5 + [DEL] 1 = 2.5 Then he wrote: >Something needs to be done that enables us to distinguish between full dexes >and half dexes all the time. > >Examples: >[HD] = half dex = .5 >[FD] = full dex = 1 >mirage >toe > op in [HD] > op toe [DEL] >[HD] .5 + [DEL] 1 = 1.5 adds *** I contend that mirage is a full dex. I also think a legover is a full dex if not at least 3/4. There are a few other moves that seem inconsistent and instead of cutting and pasting them all I'll just mention them and anyone who's interested can look back at the original post. Every move ending in a mirage for reason stated. Fairie same legover has the same amount of dexes, which are full, as double atw. Also Blur ends in a pdx mirage which I think is a full dex. Pixie butterfly, Ripwalk and stepping butterfly by this system would only be 2.5 which is the same as Symposium Mirage or Whirl. I think PB, RW, and SB are all harder than SM, and Whirl. I don't think that just my opinion either. I also wonder how ducks and dives would work out. A duck is after all only half of a dive (even though they aren't considered dexes). I think it would be agreed that a diving butterfly is easier than a Zulu le loup. Over all I still think it's a good framework to start with for building a new system. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 29 01:10:58 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA08543 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:10:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07558 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:25:00 -0800 Received: from web9801.mail.yahoo.com (web9801.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.211]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id XAA03370 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:23:37 -0800 Message-ID: <20011128072333.76134.qmail@web9801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.214.131.127] by web9801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:23:33 PST Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:23:33 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Munger Subject: RE: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <431518E4.0BC64E35.0078AB1E@netscape.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think that this topic has been brought up before. I'm not sure though.. Maybe we should take a hard look at making "Freestyle" and "shred" divisions of competition. Make it 2 events. One being judged soley on difficulty and the others for style and grace. Make the Freestyle portion easier to max the difficulty portion and figure out a (better?) way of judging the subjective parts.. This would make it more appealng to the footbag.com camp anyway..:) Just some thoughts. Paul --- Jan Zimmermann wrote: > lon smith wrote: > > >Competition should be judged just like in the > >worldwide olympics. Put ten Judges up there and > tell > >them to give a 0-10 point score. > >Have required elements like in Ice Skating. For > >example: If one does not Hit any Paradox category > >moves they may not get more than an 8. > > > >This would get us ready to step up and show the > world > >that we can put on a tournament with any judges and > >get accurate results. > > I must say that I agree with lon's thought on the > most part. What we need for ROUTINES is a scoring > system that is simple. In my opinion the judging > system we use today is trying to be too objective. > Enabeling people to do a split second foreheadstall > and getting their "unusual surface" point for it is > a joke. Routines shouldn't be about maxing cards but > about having a healthy balance between entertaining > the audience and showing your best athletic > abilities. Today's focus is too much on the > technical part of the sport which is emphasised by > this discussion, a call for raising the maximum Nr. > of points for difficulty at the last IFC meeting and > routines turning into a 2min shred contest. > In a shred contest I can see trying to be as > objective as possible because it's only about > difficulty. You want to do as many tricks as > possible in a certain amount of time. Suggestions > like Kenny's last post have been good and I believe > incorporating combo multiplyers or something would > help. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 29 01:11:45 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA08548 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:11:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07729 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:16:51 -0800 Received: from bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com (bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com [205.145.1.251]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA13258 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:15:26 -0800 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:15:48 -0500 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA8802DC986A@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] 2nd Annual Chilly Philly - responses requested Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:15:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all- We're considering holding a second annual Chilly Philly jam on 12/22/01 and/or 12/23/2001. This is the Saturday and Sunday before Christmas. We'd like to determine anticipated attendance before we continue planning. Our venue will likely be the same as last year's (a little north of Philadelphia, and fairly close to the New Jersey border). Last year's jam was a blast (Kenny hit Big Apple Sauce for the first time I believe).. With about a foot of snow on the ground, we had players such as Eric and Carol, Scott Bevier, Kenny Shults, Peter Irish, Sunil, and a bunch of others... With a little better weather, hopefully we can have a nice turnout again this year. Any out of staters that might be in the area visiting family (or might be here for whatever other reason), please let me know if these are good dates etc. Also, anyone else that might be interested in attending, please let me know so that we can plan shred space (and sleep space if need be) accordingly. Please reply only to me. Thanks! Bob Riefer Philly Footworks From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 29 01:13:32 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA08574 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:13:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07143 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:46:45 -0800 From: Josh Andersen Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA21121 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:45:20 -0800 Received: from JKO112@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.93.13fc3c41 (4188) for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:45:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <93.13fc3c41.29358d96@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:45:10 EST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Another Difficult Thought To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 124 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >From Dave: "It seems to me like this just pushes players more toward the least risky high add moves. I think a new scoring system really needs to reward players for higher difficulty. I don't think the add system can be used as a base, especially for defining link difficulty." I don't write much, actually this is my first time but I had to answer this. I totally agree with Dave. Shredders should be awarded for landing the more difficult tricks in each add category. For example, I consider a barrage much harder than a butterfly, but they are both three adds. I know its elaborate, but when worked out it would be easier if each move had its own multiplier. Well that made sense to me and hopefully everyone else can understand it. If anyone has a comment or criticism email me. Josh From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 29 22:04:56 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09857 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:04:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09688 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:28:52 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f172.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.172]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA16787 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:27:23 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:16:21 -0800 Received: from 161.184.28.245 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:16:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.28.245] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:16:20 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Nov 2001 17:16:21.0022 (UTC) FILETIME=[9089BBE0:01C178F9] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey list! Sam wrote a very nice post recently, and Brad replied with some additions. It seems there's trouble distinguishing between half-dex and full dex. I think the problem here is that most dexes are NEITHER half or full. In a mirage, or better yet a quantum-set move, most would agree that you must complete the miraging dex before beginning the next motion. This would make it a full dex. But when you examine the mirage alone, most people start going for the delay about halfway through the dex. In a blur, the first dex has to be completed before starting the second dex tho. If we use Sam's idea of calling it a half dex if you can start the next motion before finishing the dex, Blur actually has one full, one half. Just because mirage is a half dex, doesn't mean all In dex > Op component movements are half dexes. You have to examine the move. When examining blur, most would agree the first dex is a half, simply because it's a Step. This is an exception to Sam's half-dex rule, and it's a pretty obvious one that would be easy enough to notice. In a legover, you start the delay as your leg comes around the bag. I think this would make it a half dex. Another way of looking at it is that Legover can't be paradox. In order for a move to be paradox, the leg must make a complete revolution. This means legover is a half dex. For those of you who think the bag must return to the setting side for a paradox add, you must've never seen Paradox Whirl. It's paradox because there's an obvious full-dex, but the bag stays on the opposite side of the set. So paradox is based on half or full dexes. Far Pickup is an interesting move. To me, the leg travels farther than in a Far Legover, but it doesn't get a paradox add because the delay starts during the dex, making it a half dex. With paradox mirage, the leg travels wicked far, and twists like a snake around the bag. Sorry Sam, this is a full dex even though the delay can start during the dex. With Double ATW, I think Sam broke his own rules calling it 3 adds. Brad's right that Fairy Same Legover should be worth just as much as DATW, but since legover is a half dex, both of these moves would be worth 2.5. If I'm way outta line about the Legover thing, I'm sorry. Brad's right that Legover seems like a 3/4 dex, but most agree that Illusion has an extra bit of motion involved. About the Ripwalk-Symposium Mirage thing, I guess it depends on whether you think Ripwalk is harder than S Mirage or not. I personally find both to be about the same difficulty. Symposiums are tough. So's Ripwalk. I think Sam's scoring system is very well put together, and sure it has a couple bugs in it, but it's a great start to a real way of defining difficulty of moves. So, if we combine Sam's idea in some way with Kenny's idea of multipliers, then use the add's system to measure uniqueness (Since adds measure components rather than difficulty), with a 30 move limit in a 40 second time limit (Or something), we could very well have a perfect way to judge footbag freestyle that is much more exciting and interactive than today's systems. Who wants an example? Well you're getting one. IE:Ripwalk-Blur-Fairy Warrior Sam's points=2.5+3+4=9.5 Multiplier=[(1)+.5]X[(1)+1]=3 (Just an idea.Who can find a better one?) Total=28.5 Unique=1 PDX, 1 BOD, 0 UNS = 2/3 Overall score = (2/3)X(28.5)=19 I just threw this together. I don't read over the math in the multiplier posts, so I don't really know how it's supposed to work, but I think you get the gist. The power of the multiplier is dimmed both by the diminished point system thanks to Sam, and by adding all pdx, bod, and uns adds and dividing by the total # of moves. Multiply this with the TotalXthe Multiplier. Sorry for confusing everybody. I'm in a wierd sort of headspace today. Peace!! Dylan >From: Brad Kaplan >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:42:43 -0700 > >WOW!!! I just finally had time to go over Sam's whole post and understand >it. > He sure put a lot of work into it. Let me just say that I am a big fan >of >half adds. > The parts that I disagree with are in regards to half dexes. In >Sam's >proposal half dexes are only worth .5 add and there is some inconsistency >as >to what constitutes a half dex. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 29 22:06:09 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09862 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:06:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09837 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:45:28 -0800 Received: from web14404.mail.yahoo.com (web14404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.61]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA27699 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:44:00 -0800 Message-ID: <20011129214359.53310.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.4.255.64] by web14404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:43:59 PST Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:43:59 -0800 (PST) From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <20011128072333.76134.qmail@web9801.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Gassho, stylers... I've been away from the list a long time, but it's great to come back and see that people are more serious than ever about improving competition scoring. Three years ago, the discussion seemed a lot less sophisticated, and fewer people seemed to care. I wanted to express strong agreement with Jan's thoughts on presentation: > Routines shouldn't be about maxing cards but > about having a healthy balance between entertaining > the audience and showing your best athletic > abilities...we should start thinking about giving > [players] a reason to start being more creative in > their routines. I submit that we are just seeing the humble beginnings of what a freestyle routine can be. New frontiers of choreography and artistic flair (and difficulty!) are going to make this event even *more* beautiful in years to come. But Jan is right, the system could far better reinforce this creative leap. One tentative general suggestion i'd make is that a large portion (a full third, perhaps) of the total score should rest on choreographic precision (*NOT* on the current 5-dimension presentation card, which should be completely scrapped). Difficulty, however, should still be showcased in a routine--not separated from it, as per some suggestions. It's just a question of balance and emphasis. One thing that i believe would further compromise originality is more rules about what MUST be hit. Uniformly "covering a card" results in LESS creative divergence, not more ("ok, here's my token symposium move..."). Kenny's Tony Hawk-esque difficulty modifiers are an exciting idea (as is the whole prospect of a "link scoring system" as referenced by Jubal) and i have little doubt that the future of difficulty scoring will implement something like this. My reservations about this have been stated by Jan, Dave Reid and others: link scoring can't be effectively implemented until the individual trick scoring system has been improved, at least a little. It's WAY high time that a butterfly didn't equal a d.l.o. didn't equal an atom smasher. Thanks for reading, aa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Thu Nov 29 23:18:33 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA09956 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:18:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09943 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:15:28 -0800 Received: from foundationcomputing.net (donorport.org [207.160.174.56]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA32000 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:13:58 -0800 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with ESMTP id 730249 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:10:29 -0600 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:14:36 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v475) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [freestyle] Defending the ADD system From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.475) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Contrary to my philosophical bent of late, I'm here to say good things about the ADD system! The add system measures - as closely as possible - the body's interaction with the footbag. Other scoring systems, like floor exercises and skating, base some of the score on general categories like strength/power, balance, timing, and precision. Our beloved ADD system bypasses all that generality and gets to the meat of the matter - how the footbag is contacted, how body parts go over or around the footbag, how the body spins in relation to the footbag, etc. We should keep that aspect of composition scoring! When did Kenny say he and Rick brainstormed the ADD system? About 15 years ago now? (sorry I can't find the info right now) Think about that time period: routines still contained a lot of kicking - delays were considered 'difficult'; cross-body moves were mostly just clipper kicks and clipper delays, and they weren't the meat of a basic 3-add floor. The 5 categories invented way back then accurately reflected the 'state of the art' of difficulty. Freestyle (mostly thanks to BAP) has exploded our knowledge and abilities in regards to body mechanics. The ADD system deserves heaps of praise for being as adaptable as it has been through the years. But the complexity of today's moves is starting to show the age of the original categories. We need more definition between very complex moves that the great measuring stick of 15 years ago can't cover. The first 'gotcha' of the ADD system was the Paradox; rather than creating a new category to pigeonhole that particular element, it was lumped in with another category. Since then, no other new interaction concepts have even been allowed into the ADD system. We've got a couple of good proposals, though; X-Dex looks like a solid concept, The only thing thwarting it's formal acceptance seems to be some disagreement about what is, and isn't, and X-Dex. As far as composition scores go, I really think a revamping of the ADD system (adding 2-3 new categories to reflect the differentiation needed to rate today's very complex moves and shuffling a couple of other concepts around) is our best bet. The add system is still a great measure of footbag composition, it just needs updated to more accurately measure what the 'state of the art' is today. Someone needs to take the system to task and do the dirty deed. Just like the original system's genesis, two people shut in a car for several hours is all it should take (Kenny, you're elected automatically). Then let the larger freestyle community squabble over it for a couple of months, do a couple of revisions based on that feedback, and then lay the cards on the table and implement it come hell or high water. Thanks for reading, and don't forget that special "Spaz" ADD category for being able to undulate your body like a strutting chicken while kicking! -Derrick "Funky Chicken" Fogle From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 30 22:54:56 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11301 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:54:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10669 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:18:56 -0800 Received: from web20702.mail.yahoo.com (web20702.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.175]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id CAA24590 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:17:26 -0800 Message-ID: <20011130101722.16621.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.144.74] by web20702.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:17:22 PST Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:17:22 -0800 (PST) From: lon smith Subject: RE: Re: [freestyle] A Thought on Difficulty To: Paul Munger , freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <20011128072333.76134.qmail@web9801.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wazzatti Wazzup Lizzaty Lizzna's ! It's Lon here speaking da truth. Paul Munger wrote: > Maybe we should take a hard look at making > "Freestyle" > and "shred" divisions of competition. Make it 2 > events. One being judged soley on difficulty and > the > others for style and grace. Personally I love the idea. I thought that Toby Robinson should have gotten first followed by Gary Lautt and finally Yacine Merzouk. I think we should just have a sound odometer and the player who brings the loudest cheer from the audience wins. I don't see why we gotta count every singe add! However I think in Shred division tournaments we need very strict video varified results according to the add system. Although I must say that it won't matter if Mulroney shows up. He'll probably just beat his own world record at rakeing in the uniques and adds as always. Signed, Liquidlawn __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 30 22:54:11 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11295 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:54:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10657 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:07:07 -0800 Received: from web20702.mail.yahoo.com (web20702.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.175]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id CAA24318 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:05:37 -0800 Message-ID: <20011130100536.15063.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.144.74] by web20702.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:05:36 PST Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:05:36 -0800 (PST) From: lon smith Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds To: Brad Kaplan , freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <3C03E38D@webmail.mscd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello Yall. I'm glad the Paradox x-dex adds string is still going. Brad Wrote: > WOW!!! I just finally had time to go over Sam's > whole post and understand it. Yes that did take a while. > In Sam's > proposal half dexes are only worth .5 add and there > is some inconsistency as > to what constitutes a half dex. I agree. For example inspinning mirage. Is that a full dex? > I think it > would be agreed that a diving butterfly is easier > than a Zulu le loup. Obviously. It would dumb to go for this kind of move during a shred contest. Which is the only time it would really matter. In ruitine people just hold up a 1 through ten and that's that. Right People need to stick with the solid Add foundation we currently have. The half dex/half add system is just silly. We already know we have an incredibly efficient realistic add system that we've been using for decades(almost)! Not only that but we've added spinning paradox(against some people's will) and x-dex. We've spent a lot of brain power on coming up with as great a system as we have now we just need to impress the world with how simple and easy our sport really is to learn. I can't believe I haven't played a good game of four square hack since worlds! I also can't believe I'm going to spend like $500 dollars to go play more four square in Colorado! Everybody should come it'll be hacktastic! Signed, Liquidlawn __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 30 22:55:33 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11316 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:55:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10687 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:43:10 -0800 Received: from web20707.mail.yahoo.com (web20707.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.180]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id CAA25043 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:41:39 -0800 Message-ID: <20011130104134.40432.qmail@web20707.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.144.74] by web20707.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:41:34 PST Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:41:34 -0800 (PST) From: lon smith Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox X-dexing Adds To: Dylan Livingston , freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello List. >Dylan Livingston wrote: > It seems there's trouble distinguishing between > half-dex and full dex. I > think the problem here is that most dexes are > NEITHER half or full If there is a one and one half dexterities than why not one and one half symposium adds for superfly. And why not one and a half paradox adds for paradox reverse drifting reverse swirl?? My point is that if we try to add half points to all 1000 hack moves it will have too many exceptions. Now we complain because some 3 add moves are more like 4 add moves. Well, at this rate we'll be upset when a 7.5 add move is really more like a 6.9 move because they did it from a butterfly. Signed, Liquid Lawn P.S. There shouldn't be more difficulty in our difficulty rating SYSTEM than there is in difficulty in our sport. End Transmission __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 30 22:56:14 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11326 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:56:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10924 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:50:26 -0800 Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA03105 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:48:51 -0800 Received: from doodle.excite.com ([199.172.153.125]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20011130164851.IIAE1306.kuku.excite.com@doodle.excite.com>; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:48:51 -0800 Message-ID: <21538029.1007138931309.JavaMail.imail@doodle.excite.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:48:51 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Davidson Reply-To: To: Derrick Fogle , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Defending the ADD system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 207.208.141.116 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Here we go again. At least it is something that doesn't have jobs notation in it. On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:14:36 -0600, Derrick Fogle wrote: > As far as composition scores go, I really think a revamping of the ADD > system (adding 2-3 new categories to reflect the differentiation needed > to rate today's very complex moves and shuffling a couple of other > concepts around) is our best bet. That will add 2-3 new judges needed to score each routine. The concept of adding more judges to each panel was rejected outright when I suggested that we put individuals on specific categories of Presentation card (which would have added 2-3 judges per routine). I suspect the same problem. With the Shred contest being so widely accepted. The routines, which have a 1/3 emphasis on presentation, are still getting more difficult. We are moving towards a combination of the two systems to determine the best player. A major problem there is that will reduce our ability to cut the field down through multiple rounds to a manageable number... I digress. But if we put a single modifier on the "routines" like making drops a full 1 point deduction (ensuring that no one will risk dropping, and more dropless routines) then they will tone down their difficulty and focus more on the presentation card. Then combine the score somehow with the shred score to get the total. Perhaps 2 rounds of each... first round A/B then cut (a major and radical cut when going from 50 to 10 players), then 2nd round (final) A/B to determine the winner. See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener@footbag.org (I can't help but hit the delete key at first sight of jobs notation, sorry. I am reading most threads though, just little to say, and less time to say it lately) Sidenote: I am developing some programs that will prostelitize the sport of footbag, while giving the evangelists (clubs or individuals) opportunity to make a few bucks. Let me know if you have any ideas, or if you want to help develop/implement these programs with me. Reply off-listserv only please. ______________________________________________________________________________ Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite Messenger http://messenger.excite.com From owner-freestyle@list.footbag.org Fri Nov 30 23:49:39 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA11442 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:49:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: list.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from llic.net (llic.net [209.125.90.2]) by list.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11359 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:19:23 -0800 Received: from foundationcomputing.net (donorport.org [207.160.174.56]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA21702 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:17:50 -0800 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with ESMTP id 731079 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:14:17 -0600 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:18:33 -0600 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Defending the ADD system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v475) From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <21538029.1007138931309.JavaMail.imail@doodle.excite.com> Message-Id: <92A25960-E5E8-11D5-8778-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.475) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 10:48 AM, Scott Davidson wrote: > That will add 2-3 new judges needed to score each routine. Urk, you're right (Dang). I was thinking strictly in conceptual terms. We really do need some expansion of categories to differentiate between some moves that are all considered equal now, but even *more* judges is a high price to pay. Of course, that's the beauty of the simple ranking system! It never needs more judges (6-8 judges works pretty well) and it automatically updates itself to always evaluate against the current state of the art. > But if we put a single modifier on the "routines" like making drops a > full 1 > point deduction (ensuring that no one will risk dropping, and more > dropless > routines) then they will tone down their difficulty and focus more on > the > presentation card. I *DO NOT* want to throttle back the difficulty! We've been there and done that, and it sucked big time. No matter how much I whine and wail about BAP, I would much rather have BAP than a new "NO DROPS" era. What I want is *everything*: the shred, the dance, the cheesecake, the beer, the girls, etc. - all at once! I want it all, and I want it now. -Derrick "...and we all ate happily ever after." - Miles Sage Fogle