From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 1 15:24:30 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA13222 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:24:30 -0800 Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA31140 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:33:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 6538 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 17:32:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Mar 2002 17:32:57 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "freestyle@footbag. Org" Subject: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:30:19 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I'm glad there is so much energy on the list about the "X" concept although I have hardly been able to read the thread. Anyway, I have noticed allot of traffic about X-Dex and X-Add stuff in general. I want to clarify a few things from my perspective and the perspective of those that helped brain storm the X-Dex, Spin, etc. ideas. 1. The "X" in X-Dex, Spin etc. was never meant to refer to the x or y axis. It was simply meant to be... well... sort of a variable holding an add value which is somewhat arbitrary but based on educated guess. IN other words, some add value backed up by reasoning o account for difficulty. Besides, I thought x sounded good with dex. :-) 2. There has been much talk about X-Dex and how it effects pixie and fairy dexes. Sunil reminded me the other day... SJ said... "I thought we talked about this and agreed that fairy and pixie both do not get the X-dex. People who fairy tend to plant *before* completing the under and the plant ends the dex in my opinion." And I believe my proposal states the following which should also include fairy. > >***Not X-Dexes… > > ***Pixie set > Clip set drifter(over-finish under) > Butterfly > Step/blurry set > And I add... Another argument which eliminates fairy and pixie from the x-dex concept is that most often these dexes are "pulled through". In other words, the dexterity has started before the bag leaves the foot. Hence, the leg dexing the bag doesn't actually *pass* over the bag as much as the bag is pulled under the dex leg while still in contact with the foot setting it. It is not a complete dexterity. thx Eric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 1 15:25:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA13270 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:25:50 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f274.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.14.149]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA04766; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:15:50 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:04:25 -0800 Received: from 24.64.223.204 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 20:04:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.64.223.204] From: "Jubal Hume" To: RIPWALK@attbi.com, sam@footbag.org, drcolossus@myrealbox.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] CSS3 Reflections Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:04:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2002 20:04:25.0664 (UTC) FILETIME=[4974FC00:01C1C15C] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >peter hit a nasty new move, Atomic spinning torque.....I'll let him tell >you the >name of >that one. I actually hit atomic mobius last year at worlds 2002 [is this the same move you are talking about?] and props to the nemisis both side!! NICE!!!!! Jubal Hume From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:23:33 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA01707 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:23:33 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f9.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.9]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA29470 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:27:18 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:27:18 -0800 Received: from 63.155.152.121 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:27:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.155.152.121] From: "jon nagela" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Sunil's sick 3 combo Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:27:18 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2002 06:27:18.0560 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D705A00:01C1C1B3] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, as an example of adds, vs adds+xdex, vs adds + bonus Sunil beat the worlds best with blurriest,flurry, pixie paradon. Thats a 5-4-4 add combo- Woohoo!! With x dexes itd get 5-4-5 big difference right, now does that mean pdox torque, blurry whirl, mobius would have won? No because all the shredders know that no existing system can measure the difficulty accurately x dex or not, so to measure the sick 3 I think they didnt use a sytem, they must have just decided subjectively- wow everyone will be talkin about that controversy if/when we get into the olympics. Well with the crossing y axis 4 times as the criteria for 1 bonus to the adds it would be a 6-5-6 combo and although I dont have the full results at hand im pretty sure that this combo which did win would be the highest scoring combo in the contest, probably all the results would have made sense using my System. later, Jon Nagela From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:24:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA01737 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:24:42 -0800 Received: from web13006.mail.yahoo.com (web13006.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.16]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA10831 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:02:05 -0800 Message-ID: <20020302160201.80170.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.157.115.36] by web13006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:02:01 PST Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:02:01 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Wilson Subject: [freestyle] Still Kicking To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I've received a lot of e-mails asking if I am quiting footbag, so I wanted to just address the issue here. I have not stopped kicking (or sewing.) I was just in a slump, but now I'm back. Thanks, Mike Wilson ===== Ft. Worth Hackaholics Footbag Club From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:26:41 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA01818 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:26:41 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f228.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.228]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA11128 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:11:20 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:11:19 -0800 Received: from 65.27.112.254 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:11:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.27.112.254] From: "chris harry" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Music to shred to? Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:11:19 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2002 16:11:19.0800 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3A53F80:01C1C204] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Anyone know any good music to shred to? Anything with a good beat? Some techno music is pretty good. I'd like to see a F/S routine composed to The Doors "People are Strange" or the Beastie Boys "Girls". Also if you have a music sharing program, check out Final Fantasy 7 "One Winged Angel"; it's an awesome instrumental from the boss fight in final fantasy 7 (a game for the playstation) anyway see ya later! -chris harry From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:28:08 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA01878 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:28:08 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f51.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.51]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA12271 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:42:38 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:42:38 -0800 Received: from 161.184.26.38 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:42:37 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.26.38] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:42:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2002 16:42:38.0439 (UTC) FILETIME=[4366CF70:01C1C209] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >"I thought we talked about this and agreed that fairy and pixie both >do not get the X-dex. People who fairy tend to plant *before* completing >the under and the plant ends the dex in my opinion." Coming from the king of dex, this is obviously a sound argument, but I have to say, not all people who do fairy sets do them this way. I personally find it very difficult to complete a move like fear if I plant the set too quickly. I can't get my leg there fast enough. I'm sure that once you've progressed to a higher level of freestyle it's entirely possible (And probably easier) to plant the fairy sooner, but just like pickup, I do think Fairy sets can POSSIBLY be xdexes. I don't think people should focus on fully completing their fairy sets, I just think that certain styles of shred reflect difficulty better than others and it's quite apparent that when that person hits a Fear, it's more difficult than a Smear, by quite a bit. Of course, I don't think people should get into arguments over who's routine was "More X" or whatever, I just think Fairy is a grey area when it comes to XDEX, kinda like pickup in certain situations. And about XSPIN. I've been watching "The Sickening" quite a bit lately, and I'm more impressed every day when I see The Wulffman's Stepping Inward Mobius. My idea is that when you inspin after a dex, and you complete a full spin, you should get an extra add, cuz though I haven't hit either, I'm sure Stepping Inward Mobius is more difficult than Atomic Mobius or Phobia. Blistering Mobius? Now THAT's a concept!! (I've been thinking about Blistering Blender being possible, has anyone hit this?) Peace all Dylan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:34:06 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA02091 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:34:06 -0800 Received: from shell.webspacedns.com (host01.ambperf.com [209.98.44.129] (may be forged)) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA12379 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:45:38 -0800 Received: (qmail 21980 invoked by uid 1016); 2 Mar 2002 16:37:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mkeymont) (141.154.70.126) by shell.webspacedns.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2002 16:37:23 -0000 From: "Mike Keymont" To: "Freestyle List" Subject: [freestyle] Adidas Top Sala mods? Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:39:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I was just on the way out to pick up a pair of those crazy Adidas Top Sala shoes and I was wondering if anyone has some suggestions for how they should be modified. I've been playing in Lavers for years and have only done the relacing and cutting out the canvas mods. I read on www.flipsider.com that they were great shoes, but the inside "was a total rollout until they were rebuilt". Rebuilt? Is that a shoe goo thing? Also, is there any good net footage available? Let a brother know... Thanks, "electric" Mike Keymont From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:38:04 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA02257 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:38:04 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f61.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.61]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA20174 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:43:46 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:32:17 -0800 Received: from 24.102.172.159 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:32:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.102.172.159] From: "Jordan Arron" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Laver mods for inside? Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 23:32:17 +0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2002 15:32:17.0480 (UTC) FILETIME=[99ED5480:01C1C2C8] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey List, I've been looking to fix up the inside "sweet spot" on my Lavers and I'm wondering what people out there have done(what they've used, how they've done it, etc...) Does anyone have any pictures? Thanks, Jordan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:39:15 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA02290 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:39:15 -0800 Received: from mail11.bigmailbox.com (mail11.bigmailbox.com [209.132.220.42]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA28584 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:06:21 -0800 Received: (from www@localhost) by mail11.bigmailbox.com (8.11.6/8.10.0) id g24H6B826219; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:06:11 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:06:11 -0800 Message-Id: <200203041706.g24H6B826219@mail11.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [206.15.253.3] From: "Peter Bevitori" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] Symp pixie set Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'm not too sure about what has been hit off symposium pixie, but this is a set i would really love to learn, but i am having a lot of problems with it, so if anybody has any tips to make it easier, they would be much appreciated! Thanks bro's! laters, shred sweetly, peter bevitori From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 4 11:42:59 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA02536 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:42:59 -0800 Received: from pimout6-int.prodigy.net (pimout6-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.99]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA00471 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:51:49 -0800 Received: from dansxp (dialup-166.90.87.180.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net [166.90.87.180]) by pimout6-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g24Iph787850 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:51:47 -0500 From: "Dan Klokow" To: Subject: [freestyle] New Video Out Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:51:42 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c1c3ad$a31d27c0$b4575aa6@dansxp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey everyone, I have a new video out now called.. THE NEXT LEVEL. Lots of footage including World's 2001. To get a copy please e-mail me privately. Thanks Dan Klokow Chicago Inner Circle From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 05:46:19 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19193 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:46:19 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA11018 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:01:15 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GSG05601SJ0CY@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:52:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GSG0560LSJ0CV@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:52:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:34:17 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Sunil's sick 3 combo To: freestyle Message-id: <3C68C0F2@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Once again I'm utterly confused by Jon, but me and confusion come together rather easily. Jon wrote: > Hi all, as an example of adds, vs adds+xdex, vs adds + bonus >Sunil beat the worlds best with blurriest,flurry, pixie paradon. Thats a >5-4-4 add combo- Woohoo!! With x dexes itd get 5-4-5 big difference right, Actually it's already a 5-4-5 add combo. Pixie-paradon IS a 5 add move and in Eric's recount of the x-dex system it would read dex>x-dex>dex>xbody>delay. >now does that mean pdox torque, blurry whirl, mobius would have won? No >because all the shredders know that no existing system can measure the >difficulty accurately x dex or not, so to measure the sick 3 >they must have just decided subjectively- wow everyone Where to begin. It was really tough deciding about the Big 3. The judging was subjective, but also unanimous. We had 3 judges Myself, Red, Allan Haggett, and Dave Holton on video for cleanliness verification. We did use the WOW factor. We considered things like, difficulty of the combo based on our experience as freestylers, as well as fresh combos that we'd never seen. >will be talkin about that controversy if/when we get into the olympics. Well >with the crossing y axis 4 times as the criteria for 1 bonus to the adds it >would be a 6-5-6 Boy I really don't get this whole y-axis thing. I also don't see where anything except a 4 dex move would cross the y-axis 4 times. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 05:47:17 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19213 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:47:17 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA18539 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:43:10 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GSH07B018RYGG@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:43:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GSH07B7L8RY26@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:43:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:25:15 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: [freestyle] My CSS3 Experience To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <3C691649@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I know the CSS3 is already a week old, but it's taken me almost that long to mentally recuperate. The most important thing I wanted to say to all who attented is THANK YOU. And to all who didn't...We missed you. I was totally overwhelmed by the spirit of all the 'stylers who came to the event. You showed respect for Red and I, respect for the Tournament, respect for the sport, and respect for the other 'stylers. It was an absolutely incredible feeling to have you all in my home area doing what we all love the most... Shredding hard. I hope you all came away with a good feeling as well and will continue to support the Colorado Shred Symposium through the years. As for SICKNESS. Sunil took my breath away... Nemesis (both sides), Genesis, and Clown Face...talk about pushing limits. Not to mention hitting both sides of Jani Walker, Flurry, Fog, and Bedwetter in a single run. Peter and Lon, as always, had me feeling like I work too hard. Their fun and freeflowing styles make the bag look like it's doing all the work while they just dance a light fandango. I could go on about James Risden, Scott Davidson, Yacine Merzouk, Chad Devlahovich, Dave Holton, GF Smoothie, etc etc etc... but you'll just have to make it to CSS4. Two more thank yous. We all (who attended) owe a huge thanks to Ethan 'Red' Husted. He secured major sponsorship and the Best event and party spaces around and did an all around kick ass job with the organization of the tournament. Lastly, but not leastly I would like to thank my wife Jennell Kaplan. She will not read this post, but she took a lot of unpaid time out of her workdays to create the fliers, posters, and awards for the event, all for the love of what I love. Thank you all for your support and dedication. Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 05:49:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19276 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:49:48 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA18863 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:50:18 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GSH07D0193UA6@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:50:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GSH07AOJ93UK2@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:50:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:32:22 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: [freestyle] Join the Friggin' IFPA! To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <3C6916E0@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is probably a post best sent to the footbag list, but I want to make sure the freestylers out there really get this. It takes $10 and 5 minutes to join the IFPA. This is the organization that is fighting very hard to make sure this sport continues as a major social and sporting series of events. Save $1 a day for 10 days and then go sign up. This is for you and love of the game. Later, Brad [moderator's note: you can sign up at: http://www.footbag.org/ifpa/join thanks] From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 05:50:29 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19301 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:50:29 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f32.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.32]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA25064 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:32:39 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:32:39 -0800 Received: from 164.89.253.4 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 04:32:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.89.253.4] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sunil's sick 3 combo Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:32:39 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2002 04:32:39.0646 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8869FE0:01C1C3FE] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >From: "jon nagela" Hi all, as an example of adds, vs adds+xdex, vs adds >+ bonus >Sunil beat the worlds best with blurriest,flurry, pixie paradon. Thats a >5-4-4 add combo- Woohoo!! With x dexes itd get 5-4-5 big difference right, >now does that mean pdox torque, blurry whirl, mobius would have won? Pixie paradon is a 5 without the x-dex applied. Pixie=1 and paradon=4. Ian From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 05:52:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19335 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:52:14 -0800 Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA30430 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:51:42 -0800 From: Matt Cross Received: from MatthewL329@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.61.1be91f20 (16110); Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from web38.aolmail.aol.com (web38.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.14]) by air-id12.mx.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILINID122-0305195128; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:51:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:51:28 EST Subject: RE: [freestyle] Symp pixie set To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <61.1be91f20.29b6c210@aol.com> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo P-Bev, say you're setting from your right foot... bend your knees a little bit, pick up your left foot, push/jump hard off your right foot, and get the dex once you're airborn. I used to hit this set, and that's what I did. I haven't tried it in a while, i'm thinking of getting it back into my routines... or you could ask Eric Stylie Reile, I'm told he invented this set at CSS2, but someone might have hit it before him, I've just never heard about it. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 05:54:43 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA19434 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:54:43 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f107.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.107]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA06506 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:01:52 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:50:39 -0800 Received: from 128.148.209.72 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 03:50:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [128.148.209.72] Reply-To: Ceiling-Fan@footbag.org From: "Ken Somolinos" To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] PST OFF II: Another mini-novella Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:50:38 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2002 03:50:39.0163 (UTC) FILETIME=[149D30B0:01C1C4C2] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey freestylers! Continuing my tradition of reporting on footbag exploits I've embarked upon, here is my latest tournament report: The Penn State Trio's Obligatory Footbag Forum II. Be forewarned, much of what follows is my personal experiences at the tournament, but there are also some combos and moves of interest mentioned throughout, so feel free to just skim it for the moves/combos if you don't want to read through all the other crap. That said, here we go. This tournament epitomized everything I love about footbag tournaments and the footbag scene in general. Seeing old friends, getting new shred ideas, playing all day, meeting new people, players' party, chess, and just hanging out. This year's PST OFF had a very different feel from last year's event, with more players, more beginners, a higher level of shred, and a better venue than last year's event. Big ups to Scott and Kaiser for putting this thing together and having it run so smoothly. Shredders from Ohio, Montreal, Virginia, West Virginia, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island all showed up and represented their respective states. I'll get to all that in the next chapter. I decided at the last minute to go to the tournament, and I'm glad I went down. Even though I'm in the middle of midterms now and pulling all-nighters to make up for a work-free weekend, I figured I deserved to go since I wrote papers for all my classes the week before. The moral of the story: when in doubt, go to a footbag tournament, and pay the consequences later. No matter how unlikely it seems you can make it to a tourney, you can often pull something off by calling up people you know are going to the tourney, and arrange for last minute crash-space and rides. I managed to score a ride with Jon Schneider and Bruce Dole and Mark George from NYFA. Travel time to tournaments flies when you have Pure Funk and are travelling with people who have memorized entire Simpsons/Monty Python/SNL skits. When we arrived I was blown away by the humongous ballroom which was reserved for the event. At first the trippy carpet gave me flashbacks to Worlds 99, but everybody adjusted to it pretty quick, and it proved a great surface to spin on, which was nice and cushy. It was great to see tons of new faces at the tournament, as well as old friends from past East Coast jams. I was so pumped I jumped into a few circles before changing into shorts, and tried to play wearing my corduroys. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the first circle I joined was made up of guys from Ohio State University who had come all the way to shred. Pete Harris had improved since the last time we played, Eric (i don't recall many last names)impressed me with toe blurs, and Darren was hitting flurries and coming close to plasma. After changing, Scott and Kaiser showed up, and I had to give them props for showing up late to their own event. Pretty soon the room was filling up with more and more freestylers and spectators, and everybody shredded off their car legs thanks to a good sound system and music from shred videos. On the first day there were maybe 70 people playing, and tons of spectators. Even little details like pitchers of water for the shredders and showers nearby did not go unappreciated. Pennsylvania shreds: I played with Bob Green and Bob Riefer, and as usual was impressed by their constantly improving consistency and good attitude. Bob G's pixie butterfly was coming in strong, and Bob R hit a few spinning ducking clippers. Caleb Abraham showed he's been skooling hard, with both ripwalks, p-butterflies, and Double ATWs. What really scares me though is that he's fifteen. Jake Milofsky also laid down some strong combos with solid fours like legbeaters and good step sets. W.Va and Virginia also impressed the hell out of me. Brad Nelson has been playing less than two years, and he hit atomic drifter, tombstone, and pdx atoms this weekend. Daaaaamn! Bob Glasser showed off his fairy ducking set (what's that called?) and guys like John and Nino Almazon showed that the VA area is getting serious. Just seeing Yacine and Sebastien and partying with them on Sat night made the trip worthwhile, but shredding with them was also an undeniable highlight of the weekend. Sebastien's style is just butter. Smooth strings with tons of variety and creativity all over the place. I saw him hit a diving magellan, and he also hit smog-pixie dlo-smog. Awesome. Yax was also playing real well, and his positive attitude made everybody in the circle play better. Yax takes home the award for best move i saw all weekend, which was a backside symposium fudge. He also hit spinning pdlo, and lots of other nastiness. Jon Schneider hit one of my favorite combos of the weekend, which was whirling swirl-symp whirl-blender-torque. I also got to play a lot with the PST even though they were running the event. Scott Bevier shreds! Vortex to GDLO, fog to smoke, pdx legbeater to fog are just some highlights I can think of off the top of my head. Good stuff. Kaiser hit pixie butterfly-ripwalk-dyno-whirling x-body rake at one point, but still wasn't able to teach me how to dyno. One day my friend, one day. The player's party at Scott's house was fun. Lots of free pizza, too much shred video watching, judging the shred contest, going undefeated in chess (had to brag), and talking about things other than footbag were just some of the highlights of the night. I also got to watch Yacine's new video, which was cool cause it reminded me of the fun i had at Funtastiks and during my last visit to montreal. I'm just glad my mohawk from the summer is immortalized on a shred video. Mohawks rule. Competition both days was really excellent. In intermediate, lots of new shredders competed, and some brought posses of friends to come watch, which made for a really big crowd and lots of energy. Open shred 30 went very well, I think all 5 competitors broke 130 on both days, and Scott Bevier went dropless the first day. Open routines was also impressive. Jon Schneider hit a ripstein and a singularity in his routine, Yacine had a low drop routine choreographed perfectly to the beat, Flash mistakenly thought he was competing in Shred 2:00, and everybody just did a good job of making the sport look professional. Overall this was one of the highest levels of competition I've seen at a tournament. Both days the atmosphere was very laid back, and there was ample time before and after the competition to shred. One of the nice things about going to lots of tournaments, is once you get to know everybody, there's very little pressure, even in competition, and you play better cause you're just having fun. OK, I'm going to go study for midterms now, but hopefully this e-mail will get some shredder out there off the fence and motivated to get to a tournament in the future. Shred hard, have fun, and go to tournaments. Props to PST for hosting such a good tourney, and props to everybody for coming and hanging out. Peace, Ken From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 20:05:12 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA32355 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:05:12 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f87.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.87]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id HAA23702 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:33:19 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:33:14 -0800 Received: from 161.184.29.245 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 15:33:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.29.245] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: kaplanb@mscd.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] Sunil's sick 3 combo Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 08:33:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2002 15:33:14.0970 (UTC) FILETIME=[3B6EDBA0:01C1C524] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Boy I really don't get this whole y-axis thing. I also don't see >where >anything except a 4 dex move would cross the y-axis 4 times. It is getting pretty confusing. I think I understand the xdex thing, but it's being thrown around so much, it's lost a lot of it's meaning and caused a lot of confusion. For a dex to be an x-dex, it has to pass under, then over the bag, or over, then under. Think of it as if there was a laser shooting out the top and bottom of the bag. If your dexes weren't "The", hitting an illusion would break the top laser, then the bottom laser. This laser is the "Y" axis, or whatever you want to call it, and illusion is an x-dex, because it crosses this axis more than once. Clipper-set mirage would only break the top laser, meaning it crosses the axis once, which means it's not an x-dex, and two-dex blurry-set moves don't get an extra point. You need to have two dexes within a move that are classified x-dexes to get an extra point with Eric's system. So Atom smasher begins with an illusion, which crosses the axis twice. then your other leg goes under the bag to set up for the mirage, (One crossing) and then over the bag to perform the actual mirage (second crossing). Thus Atom Smasher has a total of four crosses of the imaginary axis, divided into two dexterities with two crosses each, which means two x-dexes, which translates into one extra point. But a problem arises when we attempt to add more dexterities. Pixie Paradon starts with a pixie set (one cross, not x-dex), followed by one full over-then-under dexterity (Two crosses, x-dex), followed by a butterfly (One cross, not x-dex). Everyone who can count will count four crosses in this move. Normally a move with four crosses gets an extra point. There's two arguments here. One is that only the second dexterity is hard enough to merit an extra point, and you need two x-dexes in a move to merit a point so the move stays at five adds. The other is that more dexterities=More chances for failure, so the move should be six adds. I personally believe the move is a five add move, about equal to the difficulty of other five-add moves, so I think it should stay that way. Of course, if you practice pixie paradon a lot, it's easier than some five add moves, and if you don't practice it at all, it feels like a six add move. You should think of it any way you want to, and hit it anyway, keeping in mind that you're crossing the axis four times, though it really doesn't matter. Ahhh, dexes. Peace, Dylan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 20:06:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA32384 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:06:07 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA07842 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:43:04 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GSK03T01HFNOY@clem.mscd.edu> for Freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 12:42:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GSK03SO3HFNHF@clem.mscd.edu>; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 12:42:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 12:25:02 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Symp pixie set To: karate_chop , Freestyle Message-id: <3C6A8C57@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Matt Cross ===== >while, i'm thinking of getting it back into my routines... or you could ask >Eric Stylie Reile, I'm told he invented this set at CSS2, but someone might >have hit it before him, I've just never heard about it. I may be wrong, but I think I'm right in saying that this is called a "rooted set". I also remember seeing posts about Jubal hitting moves with this set at Worlds 2000. Shortly after that Daryl and I played around with it, but nothing really came of it on our end. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 20:06:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA32435 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:06:50 -0800 Received: from web21409.mail.yahoo.com (web21409.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.232.79]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id MAA09428 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:23:44 -0800 Message-ID: <20020306202336.68007.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.167.249.231] by web21409.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 12:23:36 PST Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:23:36 -0800 (PST) From: john kingi Subject: [freestyle] CSS3 vids or down loads? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all, Johnny here, just have to say the Wellington footbag crew had a few moments of bewilderd silence last week when we read that Sunil had hit Nemesis on both sides, Just curious to know if any one has any footage of the CSS3 and if it will be made available either to buy or to download. Cheers all, Schredd on... Johnny From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 20:07:36 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA32508 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:07:36 -0800 Received: from web20101.mail.yahoo.com (web20101.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.38]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id TAA30522 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:15:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20020307031459.53754.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.249.167.8] by web20101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:14:59 PST Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:14:59 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Reile Subject: RE: [freestyle] Symp pixie set To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <61.1be91f20.29b6c210@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > you could ask Eric Stylie Reile, I'm told he > invented this set at CSS2, but someone might have > hit it before him, I've just never heard about it. Hey fellas, I heard my name so I must reply. I did do some symp pixie stuff back at CSS2, but I doubt I was the first to do it. I know Jubal does a lot of Rooted set stuff, he has probably done it way back. Also after seeing the symp pixie butterflies ans smears that I hit on tape, I noticed that some weren't all that clean on the landing. So If you are doing the set you should take notice that you not only leap off the setting leg, but also land only on the setting leg. It is very easy to start the symp pixie out symposium and land planting both legs (non-symposium), rather than just the set leg. Another note on the set is that it is almost impossible to play into since you need to have your set leg planted on the ground before you start the move. If anyone out there can string these move, then I proclaim them the daddy mack. Other than that, it is a very phat set and needs to be explored a lot more. I think it is called Hyper set, Sam I am Colclough thought of the name for it. Later List, Eric Reile CIC From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 20:34:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA01138 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:34:24 -0800 Received: from foundationcomputing.net (donorport.org [207.160.174.56]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA00990 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:31:45 -0800 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with ESMTP id 880478 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 22:27:38 -0600 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:33:34 -0600 Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3C68C0F2@webmail> Message-Id: <7CA1A417-3184-11D6-9597-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Monday, March 4, 2002, at 01:34 PM, Brad Kaplan wrote (in the "Sunil's sick 3 combo" thread): > Boy I really don't get this whole y-axis thing. I also don't see where > anything except a 4 dex move would cross the y-axis 4 times. I agree that the whole "y-axis" explanation is making things needlessly complex. First there was Paradox. The set made a difference. Then there was Reverse Paradox. The capture made a difference. Now there's X-Dex. It's just like Paradox, really, and here's my 'simple' explanation: "Either the set, capture, or additional dexterites being done on one side vs. the other makes a significant difference in the difficulty of the move." I don't think we need to get all technical about it. And if we did, we should go even farther and consider that the velocity of the bag 'weights' the y-axis line; i.e. when the bag is going up, there's only one imaginary line extending from the footbag - a line in the direction of footbag's travel - and it's length is proportional to the speed of the bag. Crossing that *one* line would be a measurable dex. Of course that would make the dex in butterflies worth nothing. So take your pick between: 1) A set, dex, or capture on one side vs the other makes a move harder, and deserves an "add"itional difficulty point (my interpretation) or 2) all this technical mumbo-jumbo about crossing the y-axis 4 times (Jon Nagela's explanation) or 3) X-Dex - Any dex which, in theory, passes both over and under the bag builds to be worth 2 adds each after the first is completed. (Eric Wulff's original proposal) -Derrick "Keep it simple, except for the feathers" Fogle From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 6 21:22:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA02581 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:22:53 -0800 Received: from I (dhcp212.llic.net [209.125.90.212]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA02578 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:22:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@209.125.90.2 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7CA1A417-3184-11D6-9597-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> References: <7CA1A417-3184-11D6-9597-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:22:49 -0800 To: freestyle@list.footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:33 PM -0600 3/6/02, Derrick Fogle wrote: >First there was Paradox. The set made a difference. >Then there was Reverse Paradox. The capture made a difference. I am not sure where the consensus lies on this stuff, but I can say that I've consistently said for years that the whole issue with Paradox was that it was difficulty that was not captured in the current add system. So, by definition, Paradox was not definable by the current system. Obviously something needs to be done to change the system we use to describe moves and/or quantify difficulty. And I've also said for years that the difficulty of a particular dexterity component is strongly related to degree of circling of the bag that occurs. NOTE: dexterity isn't the only category that needs improvement. But *this* discussion (about paradox and about X-dex) is about *dexterities*. So in my world view, when you do mirage-from-clipper your foot doesn't *circle* the bag at all, it simply steps over the bag (traverses the bag's trajectory in 3-space, which I was calling a 1/4-dexterity or 1/3-dexterity depending on how you look at it. Whereas an around-the-world is a full dexterity (necessarily). And clearly double-around-the-world is that much more complicated because not only do you complete one complete revolution, but two. And moves like paradon versus down-double-down have similar differences in the "difficulty" of the dexterity. Same with butterfly versus whirl. Etc., etc., etc. >Now there's X-Dex. It's just like Paradox, really, and here's my >'simple' explanation: My guess (having admittedly not read through all this discussion) is that X-Dex is a "point solution" that attempts to cast the analysis above into practice. I have no idea (not having understood it all) whether or not it really passes muster. I think however it's on the right track. That said, I don't think we can *just* implement X-Dex and be done. We should just fix it all in one fell swoop. (Steve, meet broken record.) >"Either the set, capture, or additional dexterites being done on one >side vs. the other makes a significant difference in the difficulty >of the move." Oh, goodness, I don't think I'd explain it *that* way. That would seem quite different than "the execution of a dexterity requires true circling of the bag, not just a motion over or under the bag." >I don't think we need to get all technical about it. Hmm. And I thought the idea of this thread was to dive into the technical aspects of what made some tricks harder than others. :-) >And if we did, we should go even farther and consider that the >velocity of the bag 'weights' the y-axis line; Y-axis, schmy-axis. The issue is about traversing the path of the bag's trajectory. There's no way to describe it with x and y coordinates. We're in three-space with everything *relative* to the player's legs that are being considered in the difficulty formula. In fact, what's missing (wow, I know those of you on the list for 9 years will recognize this as broken record syndrome) is the recognition not only of the different dexterity types as being more and less difficult, but also of the plan leg and what it has to do, including weight, timing, balance, etc. (E.g., symposium moves are harder because the plant leg on both ends of the move is also the dex leg, etc.) >i.e. when the bag is going up, there's only one imaginary line >extending from the footbag - a line in the direction of footbag's >travel - and it's length is proportional to the speed of the bag. >Crossing that *one* line would be a measurable dex. Of course that >would make the dex in butterflies worth nothing. Right, see my first paragraph. There are *circling* dexes (even if not 100%) versus *traversing* dexes. CIRCLING vs. TRAVERSING. Steve From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Mar 7 08:31:13 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA17991 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:31:13 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f215.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.215]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA03456 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:55:08 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:55:08 -0800 Received: from 63.155.152.69 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 05:55:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.155.152.69] From: "jon nagela" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Clarification on bonus system Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 05:55:08 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2002 05:55:08.0828 (UTC) FILETIME=[A34B5DC0:01C1C59C] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I think Dylan did a great job of clearly explaining what I mean about y axis with his laser example. It is more accurate to imagine it in 2 dimensions and imagine it viewed from in front though because the under in a mirage rarely actually crosses through the laser but it does cross from right to left or visa versa. For those of you that disagree about this concept 1st you should realize it IS paradox. Paradox has been vaguely defined for years as set from clipper with some hip twisty thing -Paradox is a clipper set move where the same leg crosses the "laser" 2 times - the only move that fits this definition and doest get paradox is pickup from same clipper, and I cant feel any so called paradox difference between this and paradox mirage. Your dex actually travels MORE in the pickup than paradox mirage. PARADOX COVERS SINGLE DEXES THAT ARE HARD. X dex is based on the same concepts as paradox, but now its the combination of 2 single dexes which must each cross the laser twice. X dex equals up the paradox for moves which are toe set. X DEX COVERS DOUBLE DEXES THAT ARE HARD- and some VERY VERY hard triple dexes. Now my Element of difficulty proposal takes these "Laser" crossings into account for what they are- these are part of what makes some moves harder than others. Now why limit these bonuses (paradox, and Xdex) to only moves that cross the "Laser" 2 times per dexterity? If you are already counting the x dex then my Element of Difficulty proposal affects very few 2 dex moves - Fairy ones-according to Eric, and bubba moves. This sysem will mainly reward these highly underrated 3 dex moves like pixie eggbeater, and smog. Also with sick chit like CLOWN FACE(6 adds) the x dex would reward it with a xdex (7adds). But my system takes into account the 6 "laser" crossings and rewards it with 2 ED's for 7 POINTS. ELEMENT OF DIFFICULTY BONUS WILL GIVE 3 AND 4 DEX MOVES A BONUS THEY HAVE BEEN SHORTED. If you take the 4 laser crossings very literally there are a few questionable moves- double over down, blurriest, and pixie paradon. These are verry phat moves anyway and I think that to count a pixie paradon as the same as blurry torque is much less of a disjustice than to count pixie eggbeater as the same as pixie butterfly, or to count bubba opp butterfly(bubba beater?)the same as a legbeater. Thanks for thinking of the laser thing Dylan. Later Jon Nagela From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Mar 7 08:52:30 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA18952 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:52:30 -0800 Received: from foundationcomputing.net (donorport.org [207.160.174.56]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id IAA17638 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:22:05 -0800 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with ESMTP id 880912 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:17:56 -0600 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:23:55 -0600 Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 11:22 PM, Steve Goldberg wrote: > We're in three-space with everything *relative* to the player's legs > that are being considered This is an area where the current notation system is really weak: a leg's motion is measured relative to itself. Nowhere is the location of the footbag relative to the body mentioned. I did a technical analysis of a handful of freestyle routines back in '95 or '96 in which I published a precursor to the current notation system on this list (while it was still being run from a machine at HP). I identified dexterities by where the bag was relative to the leg both before and after the leg broke visual contact with the bag. So a mirage was an "O-I" for 'bag is seen Outside of leg -(visual-contact-broken)- bag is seen Inside of leg'. Of course this is exactly *opposite* the dex notation that ended up getting popularized (leg goes from in to out [relative to what?] on a mirage, and is called an "in"). I'm sure Steve will berate me for even mentioning it, because we don't need the confusion. But it brings to mind 2 important thoughts: 1) Lost in the X-Dex discussion is the notion that 'traversing' dexes block your view of the footbag, for however short a period. Blocking your own view of the bag with your leg has always been a cornerstone of what constitutes "add"itional difficulty. Should we change that? 2) Take my concept identifying the footbag's location to the body *before* (the "O" part), *during* (the "-" part) and *after* (the "I" part), and combine it with the *intersecting the bag's flight* concept. Then, you can really identify the location of the bag and each transition: A paradox reverse mirage would be an "I-O-I" dexterity. A whirl would be "O-I-O". A butterfly would just be "I-O". With this, you can begin to see some notational differentiation between moves where there was none before. Expanding on the transition part, there are 2 distinct 'lines of reference' that a dexterity crosses. Forget about the y-axis, and think about how dexterities interfere with these lines of reference: 1) Visual contact with the bag 2) The bag's flight path If I were to represent the 'visual' interference with the "-" and the 'path' interference with "=", then a move like paradox reverse mirage would become "I-O=I". Whirl would be "O-I=O". Now we get even finer grain on exactly what's happening in a dex. I sure wish we could migrate to a more sensible dexterity notation like this so we could talk more sensibly about them. I-O, I-O, and a Hi-de-hey-de-ho! -Derrick (insert sound of ruffling feathers here) Fogle From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 08:13:59 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15442 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:13:59 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f120.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.120]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA00350 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:00:56 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:00:55 -0800 Received: from 24.102.172.159 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:00:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.102.172.159] From: "Jordan Arron" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 06:00:55 +0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2002 22:00:55.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E4E5DA0:01C1C623] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I’ve been following this talk about X-DEX for some time now and I feel that the time is right to step into the fray before things get out of hand. I’ll be blunt: X-DEX is a limited concept and although it is a progressive step towards a solution, I don’t believe that it goes far enough. I have two points to make: First, X-DEX is defined to be applied AFTER the first dexterity has been completed. A rule should be applicable at all times and X-DEX does not help to differentiate the difficulty of the first completed dexterity. It is irresponsible to disregard this first dexterity. Second, a solution needs to be found that can be applied at all times irrespective of when it can be used. This “magic bean” needs to be formulated in such a way that it is indifferent to the time of the dexterity. On March 6, Steve said: “And I've also said for years that the difficulty of a particular dexterity component is strongly related to degree of circling of the bag that occurs.” This is exactly my thinking. WHEN the dexterity occurs is not as important as HOW it occurs. If we are to discuss a rule that can be applied at all times then we need to begin at the first dexterity. Admittedly, we all have different strengths and abilities. Therefore what is hard to me may not necessarily be hard to you. I am not interested in defining difficulties of individual moves per se. I am more concerned with the creation of a consistent system that relies on the integrity of said system. This is where the discussion begins. Let’s start with Clipper-set Mirage versus its Toe-set counterpart. A Clipper-set Mirage has 1 dexterity component to it. After the set, the dexing leg passes OVER the bag. During a Toe-set Mirage, the dexing leg passes UNDER & OVER the bag and, as such, this move has 2 dexterity components to it. The Toe-set Mirage requires more of an effort to complete the move than the Clipper-set. This provides the basis upon which further dexterity discussion should follow. Jon Nagela has produced a very exciting, albeit incredibly inarticulate and inelegant, proposal that seeks to discuss this exact idea. His talk about different axis created confusion and some fears that conjured up people’s memories of 10th grade algebra. Strictly speaking, He was taking the X-DEX concept to a complete level. X-DEX discusses the way subsequent dexes are completed. Jon is saying that the X-DEX concept can be broken down and applied at all levels. One of the major failings of X-DEX (which Jon’s system takes care of) is that it assumes the concept of PARADOX to be included in determining the difficulty of moves. Now, I need to be careful here. PARADOX moves are more difficult than their non-PARADOX counterparts but I am proposing that the PARADOX concept be included in determining the uniqueness of moves versus the difficulty of the same moves. This deals with the creation of two lists: one list that would deal with defining individual and unique moves and one list that provides a difficulty rating to said moves. This isn’t as monumental a task as all your groaning is making it out to be. PARADOX as a difficulty rating creates the limitations that X-DEX is unable to correct for. When discussing the difficulty of moves, try to remove (for the time being) all the various elements and focus solely on dexterities. When determining move difficulties, we can keep spins, ducks, etc, and delays and include the number of move components for each dex. Essentially, we forget about PARADOX for the moment and count how many times each leg passes OVER and UNDER the bag. As an example, consider Clipper-set Blur versus Toe-set Blur. Clipper-set Blur receives 4 ADDs versus the insulting 3 ADDs that Toe-set Blur receives. The idea of X-DEX will eliminate this grossly unfair difficulty rating. Using X-DEX, Toe-set Blur receives a paltry 4 ADDs. Case closed, right? No way. I have a question for you. How many of you hit Toe-set Blur before Clipper-set Blur? For that matter, how many of you have EVER hit Toe-set Blur? What do you suppose are the numbers for people who have hit Clipper-set Blur versus Toe-set Blur? I’ve been hitting Clipper-set Blur for a long time and I don’t expect to hit Toe-set Blur anytime soon. I would imagine that the general consensus is that Toe-set Blur is more difficult than Clipper-set Blur. In that case, it hardly seems fair to award Clipper-set Blur the same difficulty rating that Toe-set Blur receives. Let’s break down the move using the concepts introduced by Jon but without all the axis stuff and including the individual move components. Clipper-set Blur: The first dexing leg passes OVER the bag. The second dexing leg passes UNDER & OVER the bag. This produces a total of 3 move components (OVER, UNDER & OVER). Toss in the delay ADD and this move would be granted a difficulty of 4 ADDs. Toe-set Blur: The first dexing leg passes UNDER & OVER the bag. The second dexing leg passes UNDER & OVER the bag. This produces a total of move components (UNDER &OVER, UNDER & OVER). Toss in the delay ADD and this move would be granted a difficulty of 5 ADDs. In my estimation, this seems like a more fair and just way to look at the difficulty of moves. In summary: The system we have now can be improved upon to create a list of unique moves but the same system does not go far enough to discuss the difficulty of those moves. Use this system to award ANY move a difficulty rating and it acts as an improvement on our current standard. With any idea, there comes particular situations that don’t apply. As long as your system has been developped to be consistent at all levels, those particualar situations do not prove a failing of the system; rather, it is a failing of the definition of the situation itself which does not conform to the system. REMEMBER, THIS SYSTEM IS NOT MEANT TO BE AN IMPROVEMENT ON JOBS. JOBS IS A SEPARATE ENTITY UNTO ITSELF THAT NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED UPON FOR THE PURPOSE OF DEFINING MOVES AND NOT THEIR DIFFICULTY RATING. Allow me to reiterate: I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH THE DIFFICULTIES OF VARIOUS MOVES FOR THE SAKE OF THE MOVES THEMSELVES. WE ALL KNOW WHAT MOVES ARE MORE DIFFICULT THAN OTHER. WHAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT IS THE INTEGRITY OF THE RULES OF OUR SPORT AND THIS ISSUE IS COVERED BY THAT DOMAIN OF PROVIDENCE. I believe that it's time, given the creation of the IFPA, to pursue the evolution of our sport, which in this case, is the rebirth of all that we know. Let's take what we ("we" being loosely defined here) deem relevant from Job's system, and create a new and improved way to look at how moves they are rated. These are separate issues as opposed to linked as is the currently accepted way of thinking. Alright, so now we have a bunch of guys hitting a Toe-set Mirage and getting 3 ADDs for it all the while thinking that s/he is ready for the big time. However, other moves that Jon's system applies to will be changed accordingly. This is a big shift in equilibrium that, given a little bit of time, will find a happy level and will greatly advance the appreciate of our game. X-DEX opened our eyes to new possibilities but we must hold fast to our ideals and not let nostalgia or our emotions take over. Let's skip five years of discussion and allow ourselves the courage and foresight to proactively adjust the X-DEX concept. Think about it Toe-set DLO vs. Clipper-set DLO, Toe-set Torque vs. Clipper-set Torque. The list goes on and on.... From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 08:15:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15494 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:15:32 -0800 Received: from web21310.mail.yahoo.com (web21310.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.211]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id OAA01851 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:31:48 -0800 Message-ID: <20020307223144.47324.qmail@web21310.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.191.30.38] by web21310.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:31:44 PST Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Scher Subject: [freestyle] Question about a move's name To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was wondering what the name of a particular move is. Here's how this move goes.... First I jump, then I do a crossbody kick, almost like a clipper, but in front of my knee. When I jump, I bend my opposite leg and and I kick across my body but under and in front of my op leg. If anyone could just tell me what the name of this move is, I would be very appreciative. thanks -Steve From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 08:22:00 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15595 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:22:00 -0800 Received: from c007.snv.cp.net (c007-h013.c007.snv.cp.net [209.228.33.220]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id PAA03351 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:01:57 -0800 Received: (cpmta 19617 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2002 15:01:56 -0800 Received: from 64.194.176.97 (HELO ghostpirate) by smtp.directvinternet.com (209.228.33.220) with SMTP; 7 Mar 2002 15:01:56 -0800 X-Sent: 7 Mar 2002 23:01:56 GMT Message-ID: <000701c1c62b$d89c4d60$61b0c240@ghostpirate> Reply-To: "Chris Pinkus" From: "Chris Pinkus" To: Subject: [freestyle] New freestyle video Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:00:15 -0800 Organization: OOPS! Freestyle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey list, There's a new footbag video for you all to see, featuring CSS3. I recall hearing people requesting for CSS3 footage, well this is for you guys. For more information, visit http://www.oopsfreestyle.com/footage.html. Props to Sam Colclough for bringing back some gnarly footage. Oh yeah, the vid is called "Footage". Chris Pinkus From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 08:23:28 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15621 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:23:28 -0800 Received: from web11603.mail.yahoo.com (web11603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.55]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id RAA11041 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:50:57 -0800 Message-ID: <20020308015056.42653.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.161.186.44] by web11603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 17:50:56 PST Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:50:56 -0800 (PST) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up, footbaggers? I want to say a just *few* words on the X-Dex thread: I DON'T GIVE A FU*K ABOUT ANY OF THIS SH*T! At Flipsider, we have received some emails asking our opinion on the matter. Frankly, I couldn't care less about such technical disputes as this. What difference does it make, *really*? What, in competition? This is a joke. As a sport, footbag needs to let go of all the petty shit, like this insanely complex difficulty system- ADDS WON'T MATTER IN 5 YEARS (chisel it in stone if you want). If we can't devise a simple judging system that the general public can understand in a 3-minute explanation, then it is a waste of time. We don't need to count adds and cross-body moves (players are so specialized now that it's wrong to manipulate and/or confine their routines so strictly), we need to rate players in a few categories on simple criteria. If there is occasional contraversy, it will be dealt with. Stop yer bickering. Besides, what's hit in the circles around the world is what counts. Glad to be part of it. Stand strong, shred on, Ellis Piltz Flipsider From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 08:24:51 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15656 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:24:51 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f114.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.114]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA15876 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:40:40 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:40:40 -0800 Received: from 24.64.223.204 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 18:40:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.64.223.204] From: "Jubal Hume" To: kaplanb@mscd.edu, karate_chop@evangelion.com, Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] Symp pixie set Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 10:40:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2002 18:40:40.0170 (UTC) FILETIME=[E95574A0:01C1C799] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > >Eric Stylie Reile, I'm told he invented this set at CSS2, but someone >might > >have hit it before him, I've just never heard about it. > > I may be wrong, but I think I'm right in saying that this is called a >"rooted set". I also remember seeing posts about Jubal hitting moves with >this set at Worlds 2000. Shortly after that Daryl and I played around with >it, but nothing really came of it on our end. > > Later, > Brad HEy ..I came up with anti-symposium ..or ROOTED in 1999..but told all at the worlds 2000 in Vancouver BC....also some variations... rooted - atomic.. rooted-atomic-swirl set.. rooted - pixy rooted symposium...[a rooted set...[no plant] to symposium with same leg um..that's all I can think of right now.. enjoy.. BUT..be careful of rooted moves...they are very hard on your knees..as I am learning now..My knee is still messed from too many rooted moves... SO.." BE CAREFUL OUT THERE..." shred street blues.... Jubal Hume From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 08:25:40 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15700 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:25:40 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f173.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.173]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA23066 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:04:12 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:04:08 -0800 Received: from 63.225.118.2 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:04:07 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.225.118.2] From: "ethan husted" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] CSS3 News Segment Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 15:04:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2002 22:04:08.0355 (UTC) FILETIME=[55FAA730:01C1C7B6] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all. For anyone interested in seeing what the Symposium looked like and can't wait for everyone's vid to come out, here's a short 2 minute segment/summary by an on campus reporting team that aired last week in Boulder. http://media.colorado.edu/Newsteamboulder It's article #458. late Red From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 08:27:13 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15798 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:27:13 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f91.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.91]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA05417 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:58:18 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:46:38 -0800 Received: from 63.155.156.56 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:46:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.155.156.56] From: "jon nagela" To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:46:38 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Mar 2002 05:46:38.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[F2453A70:01C1C7F6] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I just finally understand Derricks ideas- actually not at all but I now realize he is talking about notation diferences to clarify the moves on paper better. I think Jobs notation is pretty clear in most cases. In the exceptions like x body rakes, reverse whirls, or blazing we can simply put the word there and everybody except newbies will understand. I do remember back when losing sight of the bag during dexterities was part of what made them hard- ATW, but I dont think that really relates to difficulty once you are good enuff to be hitting runs of moves. As for Steves idea of traversing V.S. circling dexes. I dont really see how it relates- Is the circling dex on atw easier or harder than the traversing dex on a fairy or pixie? I do see theres something weird with the paradon, down double types moves because they are the ones giving me a hard time with my system and they are also the most commonly THE'd moves. Steve, Please use some examples to demonstrate effects on scores. If you imagine the breaking the laser concept to envision the dexterities then if you break the beam with your lower legs its a leggy style of move and if you break it with your knee pocket or upperleg its hippy style. Clip> opp in> opp clip is either a whirl or a stepping clipper? denoting which part of leg breaks the beam will make it clear which. As far as in detail single dex scoring check out these Examples of single dexterities which by necessity are required to "break the laser" 1,2,and 3 times 1 break) atw, mirage from clipper, legover, swirl, Pixie, fairy to same side, reverse whirl, butterfly, mirage from toe-can be slightly the'd by planting and turning into it, eliminating 1 cross., toe pickup-can be the'd same. Paradox mirage can also be the'd out of the 2nd cross especially after stepping- this is what Jim Penske was talking about with the stepping negates paradox thread that started this all. 2 breaks) Reverse mirage, clean toe mirage and pickup, atomic set, quantum set, whirl, blazing set, fairy to opp side, paradox reverse mirage, clean paradox mirage. 3 breaks)Bubba Am I the only on this makes sense to??? Later Jon Nagela >I identified dexterities by where the bag was relative to the leg both >before and after the leg broke visual contact with the bag. So a mirage >was an "O-I" for 'bag is seen Outside of leg -(visual-contact-broken)- >bag is seen Inside of leg'. >>1) Lost in the X-Dex discussion is the notion that 'traversing' >dexes >block your view of the footbag, for however short a period. Blocking >your own view of the bag with your leg has always been a cornerstone of >what constitutes "add"itional difficulty. Should we change that? > >2 From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 10 12:02:08 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA22449 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:02:08 -0800 Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA21151 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:22:03 -0800 Received: (qmail 870 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2002 19:22:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Mar 2002 19:22:01 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: Cc: "Jordan Arron" Subject: RE: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:19:16 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >First, X-DEX is defined to be applied AFTER the first dexterity has been >completed. Actually, not the case. If the first dex is not x than the 2nd is not worth 2 add points. > A rule should be applicable at all times and X-DEX does not help >to differentiate the difficulty of the first completed dexterity. > It is irresponsible to disregard this first dexterity. Actually, yes it does. Again, if the first dex is not x than the there is nothing to build on and the 2nd is not worth 2 add points. Hence, x-dex is not disregarding the first dex. thx Eric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 11 15:09:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA14659 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:09:42 -0800 Received: from web21402.mail.yahoo.com (web21402.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.232.72]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id MAA23836 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:29:37 -0800 Message-ID: <20020310202932.40395.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.167.249.231] by web21402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:29:32 PST Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:29:32 -0800 (PST) From: john kingi Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <20020308015056.42653.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all --- Ellis Piltz wrote: > What's up, footbaggers? > I DON'T GIVE A FU*K ABOUT ANY OF THIS SH*T! > As a sport, footbag needs to let go of all the > petty shit, like this insanely complex difficulty > system- Besides, what's hit in the circles around the > world is what counts. Glad to be part of it. I think Eli got it in one, cheers for sayin what me and some of my friends have been thinking since this thread started up. Johnny (Freestyle warrior) From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 11 15:11:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA14704 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:11:53 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f78.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.78]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA09647 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:35:46 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:35:46 -0800 Received: from 65.27.112.254 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 03:35:45 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.27.112.254] From: "chris harry" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] More music to shred to Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:35:45 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Mar 2002 03:35:46.0059 (UTC) FILETIME=[D45915B0:01C1C8AD] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry fellas, I know I brought this up earlier, but I just heard some music that would be awesome to shred to, check out Vanessa Mae's song Vivaldi's Four Seasons (techno). And look for other songs by her, I'm not sure what's good yet, I havent listened to them all. She's like a violin player but remixes stuff and its just awesome, take it EZ keep on shreddin. -chris harry From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 11 15:13:33 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA14731 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:13:33 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f150.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.150]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA32104 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:09:40 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:09:39 -0800 Received: from 24.64.223.204 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:09:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.64.223.204] From: "Jubal Hume" To: ewulff@footbag.org, freestyle@list.footbag.org Cc: rodney_laver@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:09:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Mar 2002 17:09:39.0880 (UTC) FILETIME=[8792D280:01C1C91F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello List....and all fellow X-DEX enthusiasts.. I have seen over 4 different ways od doing X-Dex math on the list...then after I read several replies "saying NoNO do it like this.." So I am requesting a Full list of How and when the X comes into play...for myself and for everyone who is also getting confused about the issue..:-) Say for E.G.:..ducks? spins? airborne moves? Also, one more thing.. I suggest that the X-dex be cumulative... perhaps a way of weeding out weak x-moves [errors that give moves too much] is to make it bell curve...[I also think ADDs in general should be done in a curve too] E.G.: right now it takes two crossings to get an x-dex add right?.. so why not make it go like this.. 4 for the first one... 3 for the second..and yup, 2 for the next one and if anyone ever hits it.. 1 for any additional X-dex adds.. if done like I post above...it would work well I think.. the requirements would stay on par with the difficulty of adding more to each move.....like this..to add one more dex to a 4 add move is hard,,,but it is just harder to add to a 5 add move..and evan more difficult to add a component to a 6 add move..and so on..to add a component to a 7 or 8 add...omg it is almost impossible [with certain combinations of components].. > >First, X-DEX is defined to be applied AFTER the first dexterity has been > >completed. > >Actually, not the case. If the first dex is not x than the 2nd is not >worth >2 add points. > > > A rule should be applicable at all times and X-DEX does not help > >to differentiate the difficulty of the first completed dexterity. > > It is irresponsible to disregard this first dexterity. > >Actually, yes it does. Again, if the first dex is not x than the there is >nothing to build on and the 2nd is not worth 2 add points. >Hence, x-dex is not disregarding the first dex. > >thx >Eric _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Mar 12 15:04:08 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA08169 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:04:08 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f59.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.59]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA24226 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:57:32 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:57:23 -0800 Received: from 63.155.156.64 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:57:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.155.156.64] From: "jon nagela" To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:57:23 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Mar 2002 17:57:23.0985 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D205010:01C1C9EF] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org To my previous list of single dexes and the number of times they cross the "laser" let me add.... 1 break) So called "Paradox" reverse whirl, Reverse whirl from opp toe, 2 breaks) Reverse whirl, Pixie opp clipper( like a pixie style whirl,dont call it a whirl its done with the upper leg.) , Butterfly from clipper (non infinity), Same side whirl after fairy. 3 breaks) Paradox whirl, Whirl from opp. toe, Reverse whirl ending on INSIDE delay insted of clipper, Same side whirl after pixie. Later, Jon Nagela From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 15 11:09:37 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA09148 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:09:37 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f125.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.125]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA24492 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:19:49 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:19:48 -0800 Received: from 161.184.28.199 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:19:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.28.199] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:19:48 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2002 17:19:48.0696 (UTC) FILETIME=[47484580:01C1CAB3] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >4 for the first one... >3 for the second..and yup, >2 for the next one and if anyone ever hits it.. >1 for any additional X-dex adds.. Hey all. I think I like this idea, but I don't quite get it. It would make things so much easier if people would start putting examples of moves in their posts when they're talking about complicated things, like drastic overhauling of technical scoring systems. I know I don't do that enough, so I'm gonna start. I think it's a good way of getting newbie footbaggers involved in these discussions, since they're the ones most affected by this. Anyway, I have a little idea. Don't scream and yell if you don't like it, cuz it's still in infancy, it's just a thought I had. Yeah, there's the dreaded half-add with my system, but I'm sure there's a way of getting rid of it. So, since 2 xdexes are worth one extra add, what if we make one xdex worth half an extra add. Otherwise xdex works exactly the same, so three xdexes is two extra adds instead of 2.5. I guess that means four xdexes would be four extra adds if we follow the pattern. This would probably be fair, but that'll be tackled when people are hitting quantum blurry omelette. I also think the system works smoother if we forget about paradox. ie:Butterfly=3 adds still Illusion was 2 adds. Now it's 2.5 adds. Double Illusion is still 4 adds. Whirl was 3 adds. Now it's 3.5. Drifter is still 3 adds. Ripwalk is still 4 adds. Blizzard was 4 adds. Now it's 3.5. Blur was 4 adds. Now it's 3.5 Toe Blur is still 4 adds. S&M Smasher is still 6 adds. Legbeater was 4 adds. Now it's 4.5. Shooting Star was 8 adds. Now it's 7. Nemesis is still 7 adds. Another idea is to just forget everything and make half a dex only worth half an add, like Sam Colclough's old idea. (It still works for me). So an xdex is worth a full add, and all other dexes are worth half an add. Paradox is still forgotten. Ie: Butterfly was 3 adds. Now it's 2.5. Blur was 4 adds. Now it's 2.5. Toe Blur was 4 adds. Now it's 3. Nemesis was 7 adds. Now it's 5. Blurry Whirl was 5 adds. Now it's 3.5. Atom Smasher was 4 adds. Now it's 3. Eggbeater was 3 adds. Now it's 2.5. Shooting star was 8 adds. Now it's 5. Pigbeater was 4 adds. Now it's 3. S&M Smasher was 6 adds. Now it's 4. Torque was 4 adds. Now it's 3.5. So either way it's a little more fair. Either all the moves go up in adds, or all go down. I personally like the second system, even though it hits shooting star hard, shooting star is about equal to nemesis in my opinion and that's true with either system. the reason I removed paradox is because it's too big a reward in my opinion. Maybe it can stay with Nuclear moves and Quasi moves, but I dunno. Nuclear whirl would be a 5 add with the first system and a 4 add with the second. Is nuclear whirl harder than s&m smasher? This makes me think that we should also remove the XBD add, or only make it worth .5. Ducks and spins and stuff should still be a full add in my opinion, but osis spinning should only be worth .5 in the second system. This would make torque worth 2.5 (.5 dex, .5 spin, 1 delay, .5 xbd). So Torque, Blur, and Eggbeater are equalized. Yeah, I think Eggbeater deserves that respect. Butterfly would be seriously penalized too. Down to 2 adds. Still equal to osis tho! Now butterfly, osis, toe mirage, toe pickup, and illusion are equalized. That seems fair to me. 3.5 for Fury? Well, now 3.5 is high! Remember, nemesis is 5, as is shooting star. So, that's my idea. I think it CAN work. It needs some debugging, but I can fix things up. Let me know what you think. I know half-adds suck, so all the moves might need to be multiplied by 2, but that's not so bad. I just think we need to really think about implementing some of the ideas we've been throwing around the place, to help truly judge difficulty at competitions. If we keep thinking "One, one, one, sometimes two!!!" we'll never put fairy above butterfly, which really needs to be done if you ask me! Half adds aren't so bad. Later all, Dylan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 15 11:08:59 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA09116 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:08:59 -0800 Received: from sccmmhc02.mchsi.com (sccmmhc02.mchsi.com [204.127.203.184] (may be forged)) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA28201 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:35:59 -0800 Received: from mmueller ([12.217.240.36]) by sccmmhc02.mchsi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020313043540.QXLL24267.sccmmhc02.mchsi.com@mmueller> for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 04:35:40 +0000 Message-ID: <002d01c1ca49$a4238860$9fe9b00a@publichealth.uiowa.edu> From: "Matt Mueller" To: References: <20020310202932.40395.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] X-Dex and X-adds Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:43:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Hey all > --- Ellis Piltz wrote: > > What's up, footbaggers? > > I DON'T GIVE A FU*K ABOUT ANY OF THIS SH*T! > > > As a sport, footbag needs to let go of all the > > petty shit, like this insanely complex difficulty > > system- Besides, what's hit in the circles around > the > > world is what counts. Glad to be part of it. > ------------------ right. You can make up your own damn number of adds for a move if you want to be "good". It only matters what the move looks like and what it feels like to you(whirl and osis are some easy great feeling moves). From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 15 11:10:40 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA09229 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:10:40 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA11449 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:07:25 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GSX04N01PJTE8@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:07:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GSX04NSZPJQTG@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:07:02 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:48:44 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <3C8F3FFD@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I only agree with my subject line when it comes to circle kicking. Most everyone in a circle knows what's difficult and what's not. Fine that's all well and good. The reality is that many of us like to compete and those competitions are what bring us together in such large numbers. In order to compete there must be some way of measuring difficulty other than subjectivity. Most importantly in Shred competitions. Such things cannot effectively be judged in a subjective manner. I know the discussion about Adds is tiring, redundant, and often annoying. I think the people who don't care about it should quite frankly stay out of the discussion or put in something other than "they don't matter". I know I'm pissing people off by saying that. I just don't see where it does any good for that to be in the discussion unless there is an alternative solution suggested as well. The add system is all we have right now and people are trying to figure out ways of rewriting or patching it up. It doesn't really do any good to just throw it out without something else in place. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 17 05:50:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA22018 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 05:50:32 -0800 Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA24036 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:17:48 -0800 From: Andrew Coleman Received: from CrazyHackier@cs.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.9d.249ecb91 (16035) for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.com (mow-m04.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.132]) by air-id10.mx.aol.com (v83.45) with ESMTP id MAILINID102-0314141718; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:17:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:17:17 -0500 To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] What's the name of this? Message-ID: <02E8BAEA.6DFBAEC3.142372B8@cs.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was just sitting in class thinking and I thought of a trick- reverse whirling paradox whirl. Has anyone been hitting this and what's the name? -Andrew Coleman From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 17 05:53:47 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA22094 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 05:53:47 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f194.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.194]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA14730 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:55:36 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:44:27 -0800 Received: from 24.29.178.34 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:44:26 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.29.178.34] From: "Chris Harry" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:44:26 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2002 20:44:27.0234 (UTC) FILETIME=[32AFFC20:01C1CC62] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I dont think we should throw out the add system, I'm just tired of seeing everyone stressing to figure out x-dex and how many adds a certain move is, what I'm sayin is leave it up to the judges of competitions. As such in other sports, people often realize a move is difficult but during their routines, I doubt they're figuring up how many points or such they will get. That's why im not worried about understanding x-dex or any other add system because as long as I can do my best in competitions I'll be fine. ;) -Chris Harry >From: Brad Kaplan >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:48:44 -0700 > >I only agree with my subject line when it comes to circle kicking. Most >everyone in a circle knows what's difficult and what's not. Fine that's >all >well and good. > The reality is that many of us like to compete and those competitions >are >what bring us together in such large numbers. In order to compete there >must >be some way of measuring difficulty other than subjectivity. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 17 05:55:15 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA22133 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 05:55:15 -0800 Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA25930 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:04:28 -0800 Received: from c1277828a ([12.231.62.9]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020316010426.SXPB1147.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@c1277828a> for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:04:26 +0000 Message-ID: <004501c1cc86$fe3bcb20$96c8000a@sttln1.wa.home.com> From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Has anyone hit Moby Dick? Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:07:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org So, has anyone hit Moby Dick yet? Abshire? Adios, Jane From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Mar 17 05:56:31 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id FAA22171 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 05:56:31 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f209.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.209]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA05636 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:08:23 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:08:23 -0800 Received: from 203.164.2.75 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 07:08:22 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.164.2.75] From: "dan ednie" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Three dexs = Five Adds Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:08:22 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Mar 2002 07:08:23.0561 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C7A2790:01C1CCB9] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey list I think a slightly more archievable modification to the add system would be to make every three dex move worth five adds. I can't think of a three dex that doesn't deserve it. I think this axis thing is a little over the top, I think the people judging the comps know what's big and what isn't so adds really do fall to the wayside dan ednie From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 13:56:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA14794 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:56:56 -0800 Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA00566 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:07:56 -0800 Received: from cc909309d (pcp053225pcs.brlngt01.nj.comcast.net [68.45.249.189]) by mtaout01.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built Feb 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0GT4004RCVWXC3@mtaout01.icomcast.net> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:07:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:12:50 -0500 From: David Sanchez Subject: [freestyle] Vids? To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <002501c1cdf0$1e88a000$bdf92d44@brlngt01.nj.comcast.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello shred community, Deep within my memory bank I recall someone out there mentioning something about compiling a list of available freestyle videos and possibly the contact information that corresponds. If I have made this up then forgive me. If there really is such a database, please let me know where to find this information. I have been so broke that I couldn't even think of buying a luxury item like a video. Now I am ready and want to get "caught up" on the video scene. I own the 3 wonderful vids from flipsider.com(and a few older ones) and was wondering what other videos are currently on the market. If you have a video that you want to sell,,, target me for advertisements by replying to me personally, if it would be in the best interest of the group, then share. Thanks in advance for any info that you may be able to provide. I enjoy watching shredding; years of work transformed into bits of perfection. Let me know what is available. Cheers, David Sanchez From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 13:56:12 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA14771 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:56:12 -0800 Received: from web11607.mail.yahoo.com (web11607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.59]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id KAA29743 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:32:21 -0800 Message-ID: <20020317183213.65206.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.161.186.44] by web11607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:32:13 PST Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:32:13 -0800 (PST) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org From: Brad Kaplan > In order to compete there must be some way of measuring difficulty *other than subjectivity*. For argument's sake, WHY? Yeah, I can see that Shred 30 needs an unbiased calculation. But how about every other freestyle competition? Big 3, Sick One, Routines, and Most Rippin' Run DO NOT *need* to be judged on adds. I think I made the wrong impression with my post about not giving a $#!+. I am a supporter of Wulff's X-DEX modification, now that I fully undertand it. It's simple and effective enough to patch some major holes. What I was trying to say with my previous message was that FREESTYLE IS NOT AS TECHNICAL AS SOME PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT. Footbag is a beautiful, aggressive, graceful, exhilerating dance of unique moves with a soft, little ball. Breaking it down is what it's all about, like how Tim Kelley and Ahren Gehrman handled it at Worlds. Can you imagine them explaining the y-axis? Paradox defined at http://www.flipsider.com/docs/knowledge/diction.htm I think it's simple enough to demonstrate to the public, and that's what matters. > I think the people who don't care about it should quite frankly stay out of the discussion... I know I'm pissing people off by saying that. Yep, I resent that. I care about adds, but I also care about the sport progressing to the next level. By that I mean whatever it takes to allow people to make a living at footbag- gee, what a concept- without selling out. That's my objective with Flipsider: to represent the culture footbag has created, and help bring the sport's potential to fruition. Bringing big combos to the world, Ellis Piltz Word. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 13:58:02 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA14894 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:58:02 -0800 Received: from bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com (bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com [205.145.1.251]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA08944 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:57:13 -0800 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:57:15 -0500 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA8804455FEC@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: "'Chris Harry'" , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:57:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Harry [mailto:roadofpain@hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 3:44 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds > > > I dont think we should throw out the add system... > what I'm sayin is leave it up to the judges of competitions. AND > >From: Brad Kaplan > >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:48:44 -0700 > > > > The reality is that many of us like to compete and > those competitions > >are > >what bring us together in such large numbers. In order to > compete there > >must > >be some way of measuring difficulty other than subjectivity. > When signing up for this mailing list, I believe (it's been awhile since I signed up) there's a disclaimer saying that the discussion is often technical. This is the case partially for the exact reason that Brad states above -- if you're going to have a competition, it needs to be judged as fairly as possible. As the sport grows, so must the judging system. We can't just "leave it to the judges" because we *are* the judges. When it comes to circles though, do whatever feels fun. Thanks. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:01:17 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15040 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:01:17 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:01:17 -0800 Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA20835 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 21:58:35 -0800 Received: from c1277828a ([12.230.224.87]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020318055835.CFQO1147.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@c1277828a> for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 05:58:35 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c1ce42$6856ffe0$57e0e60c@c1277828a> From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Has anyone hit Moby Dick? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:01:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Hey there, I received a bunch of emails asking what a "Moby Dick" is. I lost the emails because I was in the middle of upgrading to Win2K and didn't back them up. Anyway...sorry for not responding to each of you personally. Moby Dick = Gyro Gybas In other words, a Mobius ending with a dyno instead of an osis. I'll give my best shot at Job's... clip > back spin > same in > op dyno I haven't hit it yet, so I suppose the name could change. "Moby Dick" seems the most appropiate because it follows the G.Y.B.A.S. theme and borrows a syllable from "mobius," of which it is very similar to. Probably more than you needed to know, Jane From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:02:34 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15116 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:02:34 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f209.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.241.209]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA21086 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:18:22 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:18:14 -0800 Received: from 62.236.34.181 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 06:18:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [62.236.34.181] From: "Mika Koistinen" To: jane-jones@attbi.com Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Has anyone hit Moby Dick? Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 06:18:14 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2002 06:18:14.0226 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF999320:01C1CE44] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi ! Ilkka Malin from Finland is Mody Dick Master! He hit that move almost every time we play. Mika Koistinen From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:03:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15159 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:03:07 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f140.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.140]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA02866 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:09:34 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:58:15 -0800 Received: from 161.184.26.133 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:58:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.26.133] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: ednie@hotmail.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Three dexs = Five Adds Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:58:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2002 16:58:15.0135 (UTC) FILETIME=[185346F0:01C1CE9E] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >hey list >I think a slightly more archievable modification to the add system would be >to make every three dex move worth five adds. I think moves like S&M smasher and Fairy Omelette are WAY harder than some five add moves (even triple dexes). I personally find that almost every triple dex that ends on toe is totally underrated. Flurry, S&M, Tap Barrage, Fairy Barrage. All this stuff is insanely sick, and all this stuff is FOUR MEASLY ADDS!!! Most of those moves should be rated well above stuff like Blurriest and Blurry Whirl. To make every 3-dex worth the same amount is still missing the point. What about Stepping Same reverse whirling same whirl? Three dexterities is muchos toughos! We should measure difficulty accurately, then we'll notice S&M smasher is not one add harder than BUTTERFLY!! Or something. Dylan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:04:00 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15230 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:04:00 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA06976 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:06:04 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GT601P01NLVM7@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:03:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GT601OHONKT2C@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:02:53 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:44:29 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Three dexs = Five Adds To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <3C919604@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From dan ednie ===== >hey list >I think a slightly more archievable modification to the add system would be >to make every three dex move worth five adds. I can't think of a three dex >that doesn't deserve it. I think you mean at least 5 adds. Moves like Locomotion and Pixie Motion (Potion?) are 3 dexes and 6 adds. LaTe, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:04:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15334 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:04:53 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu (clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id LAA07690 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:19:33 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GT601T01OAO7G@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:18:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GT601RDDO9WNT@clem.mscd.edu>; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:17:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:59:32 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds To: Chris Harry , freestyle Message-id: <3C919AD1@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Chris Harry ===== >I dont think we should throw out the add system, I'm just tired of seeing >everyone stressing to figure out x-dex and how many adds a certain move is, >what I'm sayin is leave it up to the judges of competitions. Yes, but the judges are supposed to follow a set of established rules and guidelines. It's no secret that certain difficult moves are overlooked by the add system. This is why we all debate the issues (that sounds "Gore-ish") in an attempt to resolve them so the judges can be more accurate. >As such in >other sports, people often realize a move is difficult but during their >routines, I doubt they're figuring up how many points or such they will get. While performing their routines you are probably right. However, when I have put together a routine I have taken into consideration everything involved in the judging system. Some things more than others, but I (and probably others) count up uniques, fliers, floor movement, ADDS, etc... in order to try and create a routine that has enough of everything in those categories. I for one would like to know how my Atom-Smashers et.al. will count in a competition (should I ever have the time, money and Lack of injury to compete again). Again... Adds are only trivial in a circle, but in competition they are a necessity until we have something more accurate. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:06:03 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15428 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:06:03 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f120.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.120]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA13826 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:37:14 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:37:14 -0800 Received: from 24.29.178.34 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:37:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.29.178.34] From: "Chris Harry" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Rod Laver question Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:37:14 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2002 21:37:14.0372 (UTC) FILETIME=[11B02440:01C1CEC5] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Are the leather Lavers sold on the adidas originals web page the same as the ones sold at Foot Mart? Also, has anyone tried the Stan Smith shoe for freestyle? any good? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:07:41 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15549 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:07:41 -0800 Received: from hermes.eauctionroom.com (host.183.102.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com [62.23.102.183]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id DAA00916 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:44:22 -0800 Received: from technique2 [192.168.1.9] by hermes.eauctionroom.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A6465F901D8; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:45:10 +0100 Message-ID: <005701c1d004$62cf8ba0$0901a8c0@EAUCTIONROOM> From: "Maxime Boucoiran" To: References: <200203122326.PAA09725@llic.net> Subject: [freestyle] Quad dexes Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:42:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hello all, In a recent post to footbag@footbag.org, Sunil Jani mentionned that Eric Wulf was one of five footbaggers to have hit a quad dex move. Sunil obviously being one of them, I was wondering who the other three (or maybe more?) others were. I think I was told that Tu Vu has a couple of quad dex moves in his repertoire. Thanks for your info, later, Max From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:08:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15608 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:08:27 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f208.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.208]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA26017 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:26:49 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:15:07 -0800 Received: from 161.184.29.126 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:15:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.29.126] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Sevens and eights Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:15:06 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2002 18:15:07.0414 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A48B360:01C1D03B] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just thought I'd try again to get to the bottom of this huge move thang. I'm going to list a bunch of totally sickening moves that ended up on my list at some point. Most of them are next to impossible, and a lot of people have complained that these moves can't be hit. I'm inclined to agree with those people with some of these moves. So, if you have hit one of these moves, not if you know someone who's hit it, but if YOU HAVE HIT A MOVE, please tell me in private. Any moves that aren't verbally verified at the end of two weeks will be removed from my list, so if you agree with me that my list should only contain moves that have been hit, do the right thing, please. Also, if you know someone who doesn't subscribe to this discussion list and who might have hit one of these moves, please let them know what I'm doing. I'd personally love to verify every one of these moves. So here's the list: Atomic Drifter Corkscrew Dragon (Clipper-set Flux into Dragon) Fairy Same Swirl Freak (Fairy Same leg Crossbody Rake) Frontside symposium toe Blizzard/Blur Fume(Fairy Drifter) Mantis(Spyro Eggbeater) Pixie inspinning op legover Snapping Same Butterfly Swerve(Pixie Same XBD Rake) Swifter(Drifter Swirl) Cataclysm(Atomic Spinning DLO) Fairy Flux Fairy Legbeater Juggernaut(Fairy Symposium Eggbeater) Neutron Smasher(Spin Pdox Atom Smasher) Pixie Frontside Symposium Blizzard/Blur Pixie Same frontside symposium Blizzard/blur Quake(Atomic Backside Symposium Toe Blur) Snapping Torque Symposium Paradox Atom Smasher (Symposium 1st dex) Spinning Paradox Barrage Stepping Royale Black Knight(Stepping Reverse Whirling Twirl) Double Spinning Pdox Whirl Fairy Lotus(Fairy Spinning Pdox Drifter) Flailing Ducking Butterfly HARD(Duck Reverse Whirl Twirl) Shooting Spinning Mirage Stepping butterfly twirl Coma(Quantum Flailing Same Dyno) Double Dragon(Dragon Spinning Paradox Blurry Flipwalk) Limbo(Blurry Symp. Whirling Swirl) Spinning Butterfly Swivel Shooting Gyrating Swivel Wovoka(Stepping Quasi Superfly Dragon) So, this is very important to me. Please respond if you've hit any (Or all, ha) of these moves, and I'll keep the moves on my list. Don't respond if you haven't hit a move clean. Any amount of slop or an unclean delay means you didn't hit the move. Any moves that aren't verified in two weeks are off the list! Simple. Thanks everyone. Dylan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:09:00 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15647 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:09:00 -0800 Received: from web11603.mail.yahoo.com (web11603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.55]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA14596 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:23:06 -0800 Message-ID: <20020321192302.31802.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.161.186.44] by web11603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:23:02 PST Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Most Rippin' Run To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up shredders? I just wanted to ask those who were at the Shred Symposium what you all thought about the Most Rippin' Run contest. I think it's pretty rad. I've always liked the thought of going head-to-head, but this is the first time I've seen it well executed. I think it would be cool if this contest moves up in the ranks of popularity, then with more players we could try new additions, like Blue team vs. Black team. Most Rippin' Run is an awesome contest for the spectators, because they can more easily understand one-on-one competition, especially with the simple point of who can go the longest. Any thoughts? Ellis Piltz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:11:29 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15807 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:11:29 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f148.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.148]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA30302 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:07:44 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:55:54 -0800 Received: from 206.15.253.3 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:55:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [206.15.253.3] From: "andy moore" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] UCSF Jam Attendance? Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:55:54 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2002 16:55:54.0303 (UTC) FILETIME=[6E0904F0:01C1D1C2] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org So who all is going to Sunil's jam next week its goning to be great . From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 22 14:13:10 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA15875 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:13:10 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f66.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.66]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA14136 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:45:45 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:34:09 -0800 Received: from 161.184.26.49 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:34:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [161.184.26.49] From: "Dylan Livingston" To: ednie@hotmail.com, freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Three dexs = Five Adds Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:34:08 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2002 21:34:09.0593 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D341A90:01C1D1E9] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all and Dan, I'm in agreement that we should find a way to elevate triple-dexes to above the level of high-add double-dexes, but I don't think we should just award bonus adds because it's three dexes. They are adds, which means a point is added for each new component. Truthfully, there are only 4 components in smog, so I don't quite see how to get an extra add for that move. It only has one X-dex, and it ends on toe. A better way to look at it is to downgrade moves that are given too much props. Like blurriest and Fog and Blurry Whirl. If we degrade these moves down to 3-4 adds by removing the XBD and PDX adds, Smog and Flurry totally win out. I realize it's scary to tamper with the add system as it is, but as it is, the add system is in need of tampering. Everyone will agree that clipper is just as easy as toe-delay in most situations barring the odd few (Grifter/drifter, sometimes whirl) but it's harder to do a toe in some situations too. (Torque, butterfly, Blender) So I think XBD is an unneeded add. With paradox, I think we agree that the difference in difficulty between toe-blur and blur is in the set, not in the second dexterity. The same is with any paradox move. Blur is not the same as paradox blur. Paradox should only count on the first dexterity. I have other ideas too, but this is a beginning. Not to dis older shredders or anything, but it seems to me that in the past moves were simpler, and it was easier to give each component one point and be through with it. Due to that, some people have evolved to invent moves with super-high add counts, but low difficulty (add hunting). This proves that the system set up now doesn't measure difficulty. We need a new system, and I think this is a good beginning. If we bring down the average number of adds per move, harder low-add moves will stay the same while super high-add moves are brought down, but not too much to stop people from hitting them. Also Butterfly and osis will go down to the level of legover and mirage. Something that needs to be done. Who's with me? Dylan >From: "cool dude" >To: shags125@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Three dexs = Five Adds >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:22:01 +1100 > > >hey dylan and list > >>>every three dex move that isn't already worth five adds >>should be >>>elevated up to at least five adds > >>I can't think of a situation where a triple dex is easier > >If there is anyone who has reason to disagree with the extra add for moves >like smog and flurry please post > >>I think it's about time people started implementing these ideas, > >I'm assuming the silence is agreement, and if no one is in opposition to >the bonus add for any three dex - four add move then the changes should be >made on the move list at footbag.org > >dan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 23 12:02:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA27034 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:02:56 -0800 Received: from e21.nc.us.ibm.com (e21.nc.us.ibm.com [32.97.136.227]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA26682 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:07:26 -0800 Received: from southrelay01.raleigh.ibm.com (southrelay01.raleigh.us.ibm.com [9.37.3.208]) by e21.nc.us.ibm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28210 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:01:09 -0600 Received: from mindspring.com (sig-9-15-20-234.mts.ibm.com [9.15.20.234]) by southrelay01.raleigh.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.00) with ESMTP id g2N16ZE242982 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:06:50 -0500 Message-ID: <3C9BD587.DCA0BF6D@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:08:23 -0500 From: Ernest Crvich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Quad dexes References: <200203122326.PAA09725@llic.net> <005701c1d004$62cf8ba0$0901a8c0@EAUCTIONROOM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Maxime Boucoiran wrote: > In a recent post to footbag@footbag.org, Sunil Jani mentionned that Eric > Wulf was one of five footbaggers to have hit a quad dex move. Sunil > obviously being one of them, I was wondering who the other three (or maybe Boulder resident and freestyle god[dess, if the mood strikes] Ethan "Red Shred" Husted is one of them, with Shooting Star being the move in question. Red has also inflicted Quad Damage while playing Quake II, ridden a quad bike, and possesses massive, glistening, pulsating quadriceps. He has four fingers on each hand (plus the obligatory opposable thumb), can count to four, and eats four adult servings per meal. In his spare time, he plays four-square, enjoys re-watching the 1994 Hugh Grant film "Four Weddings And A Funeral" (he's seen it four times so far), and scampers about gleefully in the warm sunshine with his four pet poodles (Hank, Johnson, Richard, and Luscious Larry) while repeatedly listening to The Four Tops' smash Motown hit "Baby I Need Your Loving". So, clearly he is overqualified for the Quad Hall Of Fame. In fact, he is currently working on a quint dex move with the assistance of a newly grafted appendage. -- Ernest M. Crvich Boulder, CO Have footbag, will shred From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 23 12:05:15 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA27159 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:05:15 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f114.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.114]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA02579 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:11:06 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:59:35 -0800 Received: from 24.29.178.34 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:59:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.29.178.34] From: "Chris Harry" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:59:35 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2002 03:59:35.0365 (UTC) FILETIME=[253CDF50:01C1D21F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok well I understand now, we 'are' the judges, but I'd like to see a clearly defined system for unique moves because there are things that can be done that are extremely difficult which don't necessarily involve dexterities with a footbag. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 23 12:06:04 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA27187 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:06:04 -0800 Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id JAA21914 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:21:30 -0800 Received: from 24-205-34-252.glen-dyn.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.34.252] helo=sam) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16opCr-0005IN-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:21:29 -0800 Message-ID: <003101c1d28f$27f357e0$c6b7fea9@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: "Jane Jones" , References: <000701c1ce42$6856ffe0$57e0e60c@c1277828a> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Has anyone hit Moby Dick? Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:21:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jane Jones asked if anyone has hit moby dick. > In other words, a Mobius ending with a dyno instead of an osis. > I'll give my best shot at Job's... > clip > back spin > same in > op dyno > > I haven't hit it yet, so I suppose the name could change. "Moby Dick" seems > the most appropiate because it follows the G.Y.B.A.S. theme and borrows a > syllable from "mobius," of which it is very similar to. Chad D. has hit it both sides on video. It is on Footage. -sam From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 23 12:13:51 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA27631 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:13:51 -0800 Received: from web20512.mail.yahoo.com (web20512.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.20]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id MAA27365 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:09:15 -0800 Message-ID: <20020323200911.99574.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.226.142.63] by web20512.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:09:11 PST Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:09:11 -0800 (PST) From: Caleb Abraham Subject: [freestyle] System Change (was: three dexes=five adds) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Blur is not the same > as paradox blur. > Paradox should only count on the first dexterity. Ok, before getting deep into discussion i just wanted to say that I believe pdx blur only has a paradox add in the first dex, putting it in the same 4 add category as blur. Now on with the arguing: Ok, I love all the thought and effort put in by all you shredders to make the add system so much better, especially you Dylan. But I do sincerely believe that simply downgrading easier moves is not the answer. It's going to take a much longer and more thought out process (unfortunately) to make the system of this sport we all love, better. I have been brainstorming every spare second to try and accomplish this. I think I am semi-close with things. My main problems are trying to redefine paradox to make it fair to clipper sets and include toe sets, like atom smasher and things. (Pretty radical but i think it can work) and also troubles come along with clipper xbd adds and toe delay adds, just too big a gap. I have been trying hard to make this system I have in my head great but it'll never work unless I can get some support or thought from some of you other stylas with a lil more intellect and experience in the sport. *hint hint* and all this thought is going into it so that we can change the system for the better with small changes, and keep the bulk of the way it works. Just some small changes to even things out. With that said I think we really need to create some sort of poll system to work all these kinks out. I requested this a long time ago and got some serious support. Then, when I tried to get it up and running on the site, all the .org guys snubbed me. This really bothers me. Is this list just for us to argue back and forth so we can feel like we accomplished something? or can something be changed from this without some ordered voting? I am in serious doubt of our beloved list. Any comments on any or all of these topics? Live to Shred, Shred to Live, Caleb Abraham From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 25 08:32:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA09655 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:32:09 -0800 Received: from casmail.ucsf.edu (casmail.ucsf.edu [128.218.117.148]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA03484 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:59:24 -0800 Received: from 128.218.117.134 ([128.218.117.134] verified) by casmail.ucsf.edu (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.7) with SMTP id 347392 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:59:19 -0800 Date: 23 Mar 02 15:59:20 -0800 From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] Worlds 2002: International Players and Photos To: freestyle footbag X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5.4 (Mac) X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Tu Vu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id PAA03484 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi All, We are about to engage for some promotional activity for the World Championships this year but we really need to know who's coming. If you do not live in North America and you are considering coming to the World Footbag Championships in beautiful, romantic, and exotic San Francisco this August 5-11, could you please drop me a little e-mail to tell me you are coming. my e-mail: tuhuge@hotmail.com We want to make to sure you international players are represented!!! (Please no messages to the freestyle list) Also, there is a need for high quailty photos from all footbag players coming to Worlds this year, not just international players. If you have some kick ass photos of yourself that are high quailty, could you drop me an e-mail (send me an e-mail first before sending any photos!) If you guys enjoyed worlds last year, than you have seen nothing yet. Period. Thanks so much! Tu tiny person on Worlds 2002 Staff PS See you all at the UCSF footbag JAM From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 25 08:32:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA09675 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:32:53 -0800 Received: from pd2mo3so.prod.shaw.ca (h24-71-223-13.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.13]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA15077 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:49:59 -0800 Received: from pd4mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr4so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.215]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GTG00H0DO34I4@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:49:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GTG00AIEO3535@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:49:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from k1 (h24-70-219-33.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.219.33]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GTG00DIXO22EJ@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:49:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:53:38 -0800 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] System Change (was: three dexes=five adds) To: freestyle list Message-id: <000b01c1d2ef$dce50da0$21db4618@gv.shawcable.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Caleb Abraham wrote: > back and forth so we can feel like we accomplished > something? or can something be changed from this > without some ordered voting? You know, I've read lots of people talk about "voting" on this list. At first I thought it might be a good idea, so I set up a poll(Infraction V. Surge). Granted, the question was convoluted and pointless; 30 or so people voted and it was split pretty much down the middle. But I learnt a few things from it. Mainly(and I really don't mean to be overly negative), if you don't have a good issue that you can propose that *needs* to be voted on, don't post to the list saying "we need to vote on something"... what the hell do you want to vote on?????? What is in dispute here? Paradox? Yeah, voting will help that issue. http://www.footbag.org/facts/show?id=paradox-tutorial http://www.flipsider.com/docs/knowledge/diction.htm Still don't get it???? >From dictionary.com: par·a·dox Pronunciation Key (pr-dks)n. A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking. One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: "The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears" (Mary Shelley). An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises. A statement contrary to received opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [Latin paradoxum, from Greek paradoxon, from neuter sing. of paradoxos, conflicting with expectation : para-, beyond; see para-1 + doxa, opinion (from dokein, to think. See dek- in Indo-European Roots).] So, point being: I think voting is pointless. If it would do any good, Steve would have set it up years ago(he did for relevant, useful questions) and we'd all know what we were talking about because we'd be "democatic". Voting isn't the answer, because this list isn't the answer to "fixing" what's "wrong" with footbag. I believe it's good talk about issues through the list, but I don't believe there are any answers here. Then again, what do I know? If everyone didn't write in and bitch and complain we wouldn't have much to talk about would we?????? -Allan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 25 08:40:57 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA09913 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:40:57 -0800 Received: from rogueboner.lamenet.tmp (aoh1545ey409k.bc.hsia.telus.net [66.183.56.238]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA00951 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:29:33 -0800 Received: from sabetts by rogueboner.lamenet.tmp with local (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16pRoe-0006fE-00 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:35:04 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Move List Update References: From: Shawn Betts Date: 25 Mar 2002 02:35:04 -0800 Message-ID: <871ye95413.fsf@rogueboner.lamenet.tmp> Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dylan Livingston has recently released an update to his Freestyle Move List. I have updated my mirror at: http://www.sfu.ca/~sabetts/moves.html The video links have been turned into hyperlinks for your convenience. You may notice that about five or six of the moves are labeled 'Unknown'. I wasn't able to extract the name of the move from Dylan's file. But, that will be fixed up Real Soon Now... I have also added a simple search feature to page that allows you to search for words in the name and description. -- Shawn Betts From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Mar 25 15:01:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA28457 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:01:09 -0800 Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA28046 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:52:05 -0800 Received: from 24-205-34-252.glen-dyn.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.34.252] helo=sam) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pdJt-0005k4-00 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:52:05 -0800 Message-ID: <002401c1d44f$abd432c0$c6b7fea9@charterpipeline.com> From: "Sam Colclough" To: Subject: [freestyle] What is simple? Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:51:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What is simple? Simple is a concept, I don't know when from but I wrote a definition that hasn't failed yet. Simple applies to moves that can't be done symposium. For instance: swirl, legover, or pickup. However, symposium isn't a necessary reference for a simple definition :). I think a this is comprehensive: Support leg is always dexing leg and after the dex(s), support leg changes. What is quasi? -oops From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 27 14:51:01 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA07493 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:51:01 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu ([147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA29490 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:21:16 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GTJ04H01V5BT7@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:15:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GTJ04EK8V54PS@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:15:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:56:30 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Quad dexes To: freestyle Message-id: <3C953FD6@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Ernest Crvich ===== >Maxime Boucoiran wrote: >> In a recent post to footbag@footbag.org, Sunil Jani mentionned that Eric >> Wulf was one of five footbaggers to have hit a quad dex move. Sunil >> obviously being one of them, I was wondering who the other three (or maybe As Ernest said, Red has hit Shooting Star (shooting down double). Also Daryl has hit Shooting Double Leg-over. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 27 14:52:47 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA07590 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:52:47 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu ([147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA00634 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:29:24 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GTK04S011BQY6@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:28:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GTK04RB61BPXH@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:28:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:10:04 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Most Rippin' Run To: freestyle Message-id: <3C954DE4@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Ellis Piltz ===== >I just wanted to ask those who were at the Shred >Symposium what you all thought about the Most >Rippin' Run contest. As one of the people who coordinated it I'd say it went well. >I think it's pretty rad. I've always liked the >thought of going head-to-head, but this is the >first time I've seen it well executed. Gee thanks :) >Any thoughts? Yeah. I really liked the event. There are some changes I would make to the judging rules now that it's over and I realized a flaw in the system. I think the Head to Head part worked out really well except for having an uneven number of players which left one to go it alone at the end. In that case it would do well to just have had an extra camera and let three fo at the end. I like the team idea. I think that would be sweet in a head to head trick contest. You could do something like having teams of 5 with a set number of tricks of varying degrees of difficulty (say 10) that the judges choose before hand. Each member of the team has to perform at least one of the tricks and the team who hits the most tricks wins. It'd be great to see more head to head stuff. I've had a few people telling me they thought it was an awesome spectacle to see the head to head. I wish we had done it earlier in the day so that everyone was still fresh and there was more of a crowd. Too many people left after the Shred-35. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 27 14:55:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA07792 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:55:24 -0800 Received: from clem.mscd.edu ([147.153.1.3]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA01516 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:50:02 -0800 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) id <0GTK04U012A8BG@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:49:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.1 #39412) with ESMTP id <0GTK04U0H2A8GL@clem.mscd.edu>; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:49:20 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:30:46 -0700 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: RE: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds To: Ellis Piltz , freestyle Message-id: <3C955017@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Ellis Piltz ===== >Yeah, I can see that >Shred 30 needs an unbiased calculation. But how >about every other freestyle competition? Big 3, >Sick One, Routines, and Most Rippin' Run DO NOT >*need* to be judged on adds. I would agree on some of those. Add components are a part of the Routine judging system and I think they should stay that way. It's only one area of a larger system. Maybe the weight they carry could be toned down in Routines, but they shouldn't be removed altogether. Big Trick and Big 3 are fine to go with the subjectivity. I think the WOW factor is necessary since it's all about PHATness. The Most Rippin' run needs to involve adds because there is a multiplier for unique 4's, 5's, 6's etc.... It's like having bonus points for doing tricks that are more difficult and continuing the run. >Footbag is a beautiful, aggressive, graceful, >exhilerating dance of unique moves with a soft, >little ball. Well said. >Can you imagine them >explaining the y-axis? I agree. An effective judging system should be as untechnical as possible so people can understand it. That way the spectators can know it as well as the judges, or close anyway. >Yep, I resent that. I care about adds, but I >also care about the sport progressing to the next >level. Right. There are different areas of focus in footbag. Some people are competing and worrying about competitions. Others are making bags or promotional items or teaching or making videos. Still others are doing neither or both. I think that it's important that both are accomplished in their own manner. Trying to apply the same rules to both would be a waste of time. There is far more to this than I feel like saying. My main point is that Adds or some other system to measure difficulty is necessary and we must argue realisticly until one of us or many of us come up with a solution >By that I mean whatever it takes to allow >people to make a living at footbag- gee, what a >concept- without selling out. Hmmmm. I think we'll sell out if we want this sport to really get big. Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 27 14:56:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA07822 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:56:07 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f117.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.117]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA14658 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:59:18 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:59:18 -0800 Received: from 207.194.21.9 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:59:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.194.21.9] From: "Jonathan Zaleski" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Symposium phasing Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:59:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2002 05:59:18.0572 (UTC) FILETIME=[5E0086C0:01C1D48B] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo list, I just finished an awesome sesh, and i couldnt wait to write the list. I got a few questions about phasing and whats been hit from it. I hit phasing osis, i know thats spiral, but i hit phasing pickup too, i dunno if thats been hit yet, AND THEN, i was trying backside symposium phasing, i guess you could call it. jobs: toe>same out[dex]>no plant while>back/front swirl[dex][bod], i think thats it. and i hit backside sym phasing, pickup and osis, jobs: toe>same out[dex]>no plant while>op back/front swirl[dex][bod>op in/out[dex]>same toe[del] 5 adds and jobs: toe>same out[dex]>no plant while>op back/front swirl[dex][bod]>backspin[bod]>op clip[xbd][del] 6 adds (kind of like a fairy same side reversivvel.) i think thats the right jobs, correct me if im wrong. The talon has probably hit some of that stuff,or one of you other insane bap guys, but if there is no name for that set, i think there should be one because its a kinda long technical name for a set. Feedback, anyone? Peace, Jonzy From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 27 14:57:21 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA07964 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:57:21 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f17.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.17]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA07425 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:38:45 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:38:45 -0800 Received: from 24.64.223.204 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:38:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.64.223.204] From: "Jubal Hume" To: roadofpain@hotmail.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:38:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2002 20:38:45.0243 (UTC) FILETIME=[39638CB0:01C1D506] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Ok well I understand now, we 'are' the judges, but I'd like to see a >clearly >defined system for unique moves because there are things that can be done >that are extremely difficult which don't necessarily involve dexterities >with >a footbag. I SO AGREEE!!!!!!!!!! This is an area that has long been untended.. but it would require a little bit of change in footbag rules as it is now though...like say...carrying and same syposium and cross-body dexes and...and..:-) cheers all Jubal From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 27 14:58:55 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA08100 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:58:55 -0800 Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA20684 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:36:56 -0800 Received: from sympatico.ca ([206.172.123.169]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020327013651.UJMB12533.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:36:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3CA1242F.FF8244C8@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:45:19 -0500 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= Duchesne Reply-To: sg.duchesne@sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: _freestyle list Subject: [freestyle] Bubba style backside symposium omelette Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all, I landed a nice bubba style backside symposium omelette. In Jobs : clip>op out>(no plant while) op out>op toe. I just wanted to know if I can name that move. If not, tell me who I have to pay! P.S.: to get a closer window, go for bubba style backside symposium atom smasher, way more fun!! -Excited Duchesne From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Mar 27 15:01:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA08228 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:01:07 -0800 Received: from hotmail.com (f214.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.214]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id SAA23382 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:41:08 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:41:04 -0800 Received: from 68.80.0.8 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:41:04 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.80.0.8] From: "David Tomlinson" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Antisymposium Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:41:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2002 02:41:04.0923 (UTC) FILETIME=[D73F76B0:01C1D538] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What exactly is antisymposium, and what antisymposium moves have been hit? When I do what I think is an antisymposium mirage, for example, I delay the bag on my right toe, lift up my left leg, jump hard of my right leg, setting the bag about waist high. Then I land on my right leg, do an in-out dex with my left leg, and plant it, catching the bag on my right toe. Is that it??? And how many adds would that be??? David Tomlinson From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Mar 28 13:05:02 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30522 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:05:02 -0800 Received: from bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com (bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com [205.145.1.251]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA27016 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:04:26 -0800 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:59:25 -0500 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88044560E2@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] The Philly Big Wave Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:59:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry for: 1) The late notice and 2) The weak event name.. It's the best I could come up with right now... Anyhow, in honor of Sunil "Tsunami" Jani's return to the Philadelphia area, we are organizing a jam at the same site as the Chilly Philly. The Big Wave will be taking place on 04/12/2002 - 04/13/2002 unless something strange happens. Exact times, costs, and everything else you need to know will be posted on the event listing at www.footbag.org within the next few days. I'll also send another post on this topic once details are finalized. Thanks! Bob Riefer Philly Footworks From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Mar 28 13:04:21 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30486 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:04:21 -0800 Received: from pd3mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA28314 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:09:29 -0800 Received: from pd4mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.212]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GTO00ERB6FLBI@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:09:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GTO008N96FLZC@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:09:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from k1 (h24-70-219-33.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.219.33]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GTO00E8Y6EEZK@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:08:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:13:48 -0800 From: Allan Haggett Subject: [freestyle] Twirl V. Swivel To: freestyle list Message-id: <00a201c1d61f$b96dde00$21db4618@gv.shawcable.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello, I've asked and speculated about the definitions of the two moves Twirl and Swivel, several times over the past few years, on this list and at whatever tournaments I have been fortunate enough to attend. I cannot protest to have actually talked extensively about it with any one player, but I do believe that I have broached the topic with enough players and skooled the two moves enough to finally be able to propose/inform of a solid difference between the two moves in question. To my knowledge, it was Scott Davidson who originally skooled and hit Twirl regularily sometime during the last ice age. Twirl is a move in which you do the dexterity of a swirl, immediately plant that foot and "bail", as it were, into an Osis on your opposite foot. Scott is now hitting Twirl > Twirl. Swivel, on the other hand, has origins which I am unsure of. The first person I heard call it it that was Peter Irish at World's 2000. Maybe Peter could provide some background here. A Swivel is a Symposium Reverse Twirl; that is, a Twirl, where the dexterity is done from front to back(a reverse Swirl), and is done symposium. It can be done from any set, but because the dex is a Swirl, it cannot be Paradox. There may be some debate as to whether or not this move qualifies as X-Dex, though I will confine myself to merely defining the two moves as seperate entities, rather than try to quantify them into the add system. IMHO, the move "feels paradox-ish", but that is beside the point. It is therefore my contention that a Swivel is a Symposium Reverse Twirl. Twirl being defined as a Swirling Osis. A Reverse Twirl being simply a Reverse Twirl; if it's not Symposium, it's not Swivel. Let the adds fall where they may when we figure all that out. -Allan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 29 17:21:19 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA25262 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:21:19 -0800 Received: from mail11.bigmailbox.com (mail11.bigmailbox.com [209.132.220.42]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA09185 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:14:03 -0800 Received: (from www@localhost) by mail11.bigmailbox.com (8.11.6/8.10.0) id g2TIDtr32111; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:13:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:13:55 -0800 Message-Id: <200203291813.g2TIDtr32111@mail11.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [24.128.13.123] From: Neil Bornstein To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Has anyone hit this? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org i was wondering if anyone else has hit this move before: clip>same in[pdx][dex]>back spin[bod]>same x-bod heel rake[dex][uns][xbd][del] that's pdx dex bod dex uns xbd del a 7 add move. if no one else has hit it, i would like to call it versatility. thanks, Neil From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 29 17:22:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA25292 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:22:14 -0800 Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA13331 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:01:10 -0800 From: Josh Owens Received: from JKO112@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.24.23130b7f (16086) for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from web34.aolmail.aol.com (web34.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.10]) by air-id10.mx.aol.com (v84.14) with ESMTP id MAILINID103-0329150102; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:01:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:01:02 EST Subject: [freestyle] Cross-Body Dexes To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <24.23130b7f.29d621fe@aol.com> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok, after I read Jubal's post that mentioned something about cross-body dexes getting extra adds I got to thinking (uh-oh)... I feel that something similar to the x-dex is in order. Since xbd dexes are harder than normal dexes (be flexible), I say 2 xbd dexes = 1 add. Any comments? Has this been thought of before? Anyway, I guess it wouldn't come into play that often, but maybe if a ripstein were another add, more people would school it. (for anyone that offends, I was kidding, and for all others: see my point?) Although I have been pondering moves other than ripstein that this concept would apply to... so tell me what you think (nicely if possible) Josh Owens From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Mar 29 17:24:34 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA25361 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:24:34 -0800 Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id MAA13596 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:09:39 -0800 From: Josh Owens Received: from JKO112@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.166.b4a0c09 (15899) for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from web29.aolmail.aol.com (web29.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.5]) by air-id09.mx.aol.com (v84.14) with ESMTP id MAILINID92-0329150925; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:09:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:09:25 EST Subject: [freestyle] Swirl, Whirr, and Whirl moves? To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <166.b4a0c09.29d623f5@aol.com> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry to bother everyone again but I was just thinking of move insanity like: Symposium Whirr Whirring Swirl Whirling Ripstein Swirling/Rev. Swirling Whirling Swirl (thinking a lot about swirling sets) And.. better sit down for this one... Triple Swirl (Tripstein?) Has any of this been hit? If so, who? I'm not gonna throw in Whirring Ripstein, I know it just hurts your brain. Josh Owens From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 30 08:20:47 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15294 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:20:47 -0800 Received: from web11603.mail.yahoo.com (web11603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.55]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA12854 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:46:37 -0800 Message-ID: <20020329194633.72567.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.27.107.19] by web11603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:46:33 PST Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:46:33 -0800 (PST) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: RE: [freestyle] Adds Shmadds To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Brad Kaplan wrote: > Hmmmm. I think we'll sell out if we want > this sport to really get big. What the hell are you talking about? I really disagree with that statement. Did Skateboarding sell out? No. Did Surfing sell out? No. Both are a tight-knit, self-sustaining culture, which invented itself and continues to define itself based on the people within the movement. When a sport/person sells out he/she/it is no longer calling any shots at all and is merely trying to satisfy the puppet master. We don't even have that option at this point, and when the time comes for all these big companies to approach us, I hope some/most of you will say, "Go fuck yourself; where were you in the struggle?" It's funny how similarly we are following in skateboarding's footsteps. ===Back to shmadds: > Add components are a part of the Routine > judging system and I think they should stay > that way. Again, WHY? I say dismantle the whole thing and try something new. Without "cards to fill" we won't have card-fillers and add-hunters making the sport look bad. Everyone is in a hissy about quantify everything, and I don't think that's necessary. In fact, I strongly believe that with a less confined judging system the results of competition will be more accurate, among other improvements. Due to the shortcomings of today's judging system, at last year's Worlds someone got shortchanged on an original, well-choreographed routine with music cues all over the place, while someone else had a huge score for racking up as many adds as humanly possible without much entertainment. Figure that one out. > The Most Rippin' run needs to involve adds > because there is a multiplier > for unique 4's, 5's, 6's etc.... I'd like to address this in the "Most Rippin Run" thread, but I don't think we need the multiplier. It's all about going long, honorably. Since its head-to-head, I think it defeats the purpose to have to verify it on video. > There are different areas of focus > in footbag. Some people worry about competitions. Others are making bags, promo items, teaching, making videos. Still others are doing neither or both. > I think that it's important that both are accomplished in their own manner. applying the same rules to both would be a waste of time. Ok, so you're commenting on my approach to progression, though I don't know why you think I'm applying the same rules to all things footbag. I mean, what rules? Progression is one piece, measured by each part in a group. If something falls short/behind, in this case competition scoring, then it needs some work, based on individual criteria. Throw out the cross-body cards and smile points on presentation, and bring in a panel of 7 officials to decide who did the best (see the p.s. for my list of qualified judges). This discussion goes far beyond adds, my friends. > My main point is that Adds or some other > system to measure difficulty is > necessary and we must argue realisticly until > one of us or many of us come up > with a solution Well, knock yourselves out. Or better yet, just go shred and have some fun, videotape yourself and get tan. An improved competition format will spawn when the time is right. Thanks to all of you with encouraging words. I appreciate your props. shredder out, Ellis Piltz p.s. my judges list: Steve Goldberg, Rick Reese, Kenny Shults, Tuan Vu, Eric Wulff, Richard Abshire, Sunil Jani, Ahren Gehrman, myself, Chad Dev., Jon Schneider, Josh Penney, Brad Kaplan (seriously), Tu Vu, Allan Haggett, Adrian Dick, Eric Windsor, Dave Holton, Daryl Genz, and Peter Irish (though I hope he makes finals until he's 55). That's 20 people in case some make it to Finals. p.p.s. I hate long messages, too. Sorry. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 30 08:21:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15328 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:21:27 -0800 Received: from imgate2.snip.net (imgate2.snip.net [209.204.64.8]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA26868 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:53:47 -0800 Received: from snipdsanchez (office146.snip.net [209.204.68.146]) by imgate2.snip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 34B5361ECA; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:53:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00d101c1d78d$4b798420$9244ccd1@SNIP.NET> From: "David Sanchez" To: "Josh Owens" Cc: References: <166.b4a0c09.29d623f5@aol.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Swirl, Whirr, and Whirl moves? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:50:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Owens" > Symposium Whirr > Whirring Swirl > Whirling Ripstein > Swirling/Rev. Swirling Whirling Swirl > (thinking a lot about swirling sets) > And.. better sit down for this one... > Triple Swirl (Tripstein?) > > Has any of this been hit? If so, who? ------------------------------------------------------------------- The great Kenny Shults hit whirring swirl at Funtastik 2001. I heard the eruption of the surrounding crowd but unfortunately did not get lucky enough to see it myself. David From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 30 08:22:15 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15360 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:22:15 -0800 Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA29605 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:03:29 -0800 Received: from [192.168.2.32] ([12.250.116.15]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020330030327.HWGE1214.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@[192.168.2.32]> for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:03:27 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:09:54 -0600 Subject: [freestyle] Impromptu jam in Ann Arbor, MI From: Scott Davidson To: Freestyle Listserv Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi! I hadn't seen anything about this on the listserv, and since it's not an officially sanctioned event, or even much more than loosely organized gathering of friends and shredders, I thought I'd try to boost the attendance. I am driving about 5 hours to get there so I figure there may be others who might want to come out and jam with us or just hang out. The location is Ann Arbor, MI at the University, "on the quad" in the middle of the festival going on Saturday, April 6th there at about 1:00. I know for certain that besides myself, Greg "Guilt Free Smoothie" Nelson, Adam Keith and Jon Nagela will be there, how about you? Contact me on the side for more information and contacts in the area of the event. Oh, contact me on the side also if you want more information about the air dates of the taping we did this past summer for "Wild Chicago" on PBS. Or check the footbag.org archives on the "footbag" listserv, as it was posted there in detail (for those who don't subscribe to both lists). See ya! Scott Davidson enlightener From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 30 08:23:29 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15397 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:23:29 -0800 Received: from pd5mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (h24-71-223-13.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.13]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA31268 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:54:55 -0800 Received: from pd4mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.213]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GTR00ANHPJICW@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:54:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml1so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.145]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GTR00DJIPJH11@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:54:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from k1 (h24-70-219-33.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.219.33]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GTR0007LPH6JA@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:53:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:59:39 -0800 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] Twirl V. Swivel To: freestyle list Message-id: <002401c1d79f$50cd7aa0$21db4618@gv.shawcable.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello again, I was wrong. There is nothing like being wrong in front of 100's of people to make you feel humble ;-) Thanx go to Jon Schneider, Scott Davidson, Paul Munger and others for their feedback :) Here's the skinny, unless someone else cares to chime in: A Twirl has traditionally been done with a reverse swirl(front-back) dex. A Swivel was done symposium [back-front]. I had it backwards - go figure ;) Though you may laugh if you've ever read any of my posts, I really do favor simplicity over this ubertechnobabble. So rather than try to make sense of what every combo of swirling-osis could be called, I agree with what Jon Scneider wrote in an off-list discussion: >>could simply say that a twirl is a twirl, whatever direction the dex goes, >>and swivel is simply symposium twirl, the direction of dex still being >>largely irrelevant (irrelevant only to the name, of course.) I like that definition best. It was likely Tim Kelly who originally skooled Swivel at '95 or '96 World's. Chad Devlahovich hits Mobius > Swivel on California Connection and I know I've seen Ellis Piltz hit Swivel on tape somewhere. Yeah. That's that. -Allan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Mar 30 08:24:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA15438 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:24:32 -0800 Received: from web9801.mail.yahoo.com (web9801.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.211]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id UAA32126 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:21:09 -0800 Message-ID: <20020330042105.8107.qmail@web9801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.214.131.133] by web9801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:21:05 PST Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:21:05 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Munger Subject: [freestyle] Promoting the sport To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all. I was thinking alot about the promotion of our beloved sport. I believe that only the truly dedicated will aspire to the ranks of competition. The rest are just hackers. They are seen everywhere from beachs to parks and all over in the school yards. But for a number of reasons not many can do even a toe delay. Some of these reasons are obvious; they are using and are used to a bag that is just not right for it, ie whamo hacky sack, sipa sipa or some guatamalin piece.. They are kicking in the most common hacker shoe the high top or they have just not seem anyone good enough to do it. But these are the people that we want to entice to play our beloved sport and to bring others into it also. These are the people that we want to fill the stands. Think of all the people out there who golf, play soccer or football. They go to watch the pro's. They fill the stands. This is what we want. Hell I go just to watch the pro's... But in my thinking I have realized a few things. In my few years kicking and trying to promote the sport. (which I ALWAYS stop and kick in ANY circle I see.) I find a few interesting things when I approach a new cirle. As soon as I start doing simple tricks the kids are amazed. They want me to do more and I show them more. But when I do a trick that they cannot fathom some get immediately turned off. They shut down and alot of the time dont even want to watch. They just want to go back to kicking with there friends. (Usually this is the person that is the best in this group and I just showed him up) OOPPPSS:( The others though are very interested and want to see more.. So they get it. But unless I give them a footbag, web url or a phone number, Once I leave, I become this dude that is a real baddass hacker and nothing more. They try the simple tricks that I showed them but to no avail because they are not properly equiped. ie, footbag and shoes. They may try going to the websites that I give them and looking but nothing is ever heard from most of them. Although it is hoped that they are still kicking they are most certainly disappointed because the tricks are so hard.. We all no that this is untrue given the proper equipment. But since Worlds last year I have found something to lure them (if you will) farther into the sport. That is by teaching them how to play 4 square. Because in 4 square you never need to do a toe delay or anything fancy. All you need to do is keep it out of your square and in someone elses. The game is mildly competitive and LOTS of fun. I have taught about a dozen kids ages 10-16 how to play and they love it. They kept on playing even after I left. They even knock on my door and ask me to come out and play with them. The feeling that they have for the game is much more. They WANT to get better. They want to play more. They want to have all the fun the game has to offer. After all its not just standing in a circle and hackin the sack anymore. Its playing with more enthusiasim (i think i hacked that word,pardon) Anyway I guess my point is that when you run into a group of kids in a circle teach them 4 square. The simpleness of the game itself is enough to keep them playing and entice other potential kickers to enjoy it too..You can show off for them a bit but try not to baffle them. We all know that a simple P mirage or osis is just as effective to the newbie as a p torque or some other sickness that is out there in making an impression on them. If you can spare it give them a footbag or offer to sell one to them. Always have one for sale or for a gift to the best in the bunch. Just a inexpensive sand bag or somehting of the like. Always propmote the websites and the different footbags, shoes etc.. Teach them 4 square to further spark there intrest because this is something you leave behind. A game. Not a trick that they can never possibly pull off but a game that they can show there friends. Instead of he did this and that and then this again, they will be saying these are the rules and this is how we play. Sorry so long, Just some thoughts Paul ps I am old enuff to remember foot bucks from WFA. I handed out hundreds of them. Perhaps we should revisit things like this.