From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 11:02:11 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA08055 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:02:11 -0700 Subject: [freestyle] ducking and paradox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:42:27 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <25892FED0DCC324B92D90F4C613A2BFE020CD2@swww.dmz.intellectualsolutions.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ducking and paradox Thread-Index: AcI5eGSxfJ0VDqVqEdap+wBQiwrP6A== From: "James Hermey" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id JAA01060 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello, Basically, does ducking or diving cancel a paradox? As in a paradox ducking da da curve? I know that spin/gyro will I did three of these in a row yesterday and had to stop because it was just too damn funny James Hermey (James@Hermey.com) From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 11:01:01 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA07890 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:01:01 -0700 Message-Id: <200208011801.LAA07890@llic.net> Received: from [65.92.242.64] by web11607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 08:49:00 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: [freestyle] X Games in Philly To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org East Coasters, I wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to the X Games on August 16-19 to play footbag. There will be official footbag demos there of both Freestyle and Street. Just FYI (not advertising), KickBag has a booth set up, where their footbags and Flipsider's videos will be sold to the public. I know there are a lot of you who may be interested in going, so give me an email if you plan to show up. Much obliged, Ellis Piltz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 18:15:03 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA26441 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:15:03 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:49:01 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7BDA@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] X Games in Philly Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:48:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On that note, if you're interested in more information on the X Games in Philly, go to http://www.philadelphiaxgames.org/ This includes a schedule of events etc. The games should be a lot of fun besides just shredding, so try to make it if you're anywhere nearby. Also, if you're from out of town and need a place to stay, you can try contacting a Philly Footworks member to see if they have crash space. Additionally, as we know more, information will be posted at our club page. Find our members and other information at http://www.footbag.org/clubs/show/964199836 Thanks! Bob Riefer Philly Footworks > -----Original Message----- > From: Ellis Piltz [mailto:ezshredz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:49 AM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: [freestyle] X Games in Philly > > > East Coasters, > > I wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to > the X Games on August 16-19 to play footbag. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 22:51:12 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA02979 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:51:12 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020802053653.VIKZ221.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:36:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3D4A1C82.BCBF5206@attbi.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 00:45:38 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Hermey CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org James Hermey wrote: > Basically, does ducking or diving cancel a paradox? No. > As in a paradox ducking da da curve? If you hit this move clean, it will be 6 adds. Just be sure that when you catch it, your foot is in the cross body position (for the paradox part). If you make contact and then scoop it to the xbdy position, you didn't complete the paradox. Make sense? > I know that spin/gyro will [cancel paradox] Spins don't cancel paradox either... Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 2 02:00:33 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA08365 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:00:33 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:29:54 -0700 Received: from 63.60.196.35 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:29:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.60.196.35] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:29:54 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2002 08:29:54.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[C724CF70:01C239FE] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, If spins don't cancel a paradox, how come a Vortex is only four adds? Shouldn't it be clip>spin [bod]> same in [pdx][dex]> same clip [xbd][del]? that looks like five to me! >From: Derric Scalf >To: James Hermey >CC: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 00:45:38 -0500 > >James Hermey wrote: > > Basically, does ducking or diving cancel a paradox? > >No. > > > As in a paradox ducking da da curve? > >If you hit this move clean, it will be 6 adds. Just be sure that when >you catch it, your foot is in the cross body position (for the paradox >part). If you make contact and then scoop it to the xbdy position, you >didn't complete the paradox. Make sense? > > > > I know that spin/gyro will [cancel paradox] > >Spins don't cancel paradox either... Later. > >-Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 2 12:01:38 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA24010 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:01:38 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020802181843.JETT22139.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:18:43 +0000 Message-ID: <3D4ACF1B.542161A2@attbi.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 13:27:39 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy O'Wheel" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jeremy O'Wheel wrote: > > If spins don't cancel a paradox, how come a Vortex is only four adds? > Shouldn't it be clip>spin [bod]> same in [pdx][dex]> same clip [xbd][del]? There isn't a paradox in vortex. A spinning paradox drifter (lotus) would be: clip > (back) spin [bod] > op in [pdx][dex] > same clip [xbd][del] Your normal paradox moves go like this: clip > SAME [pdx][dex] > Spinning paradox switches it up a bit: clip > (back) spin > OP [pdx][dex] > Basically after you do a spinning set, the bag switches to the other side of your body. A right foot clipper is on the left side of your body. Do a spin set from a right foot clipper, and the bag is on the right side of your body. That's why the paradox is 'switched' on spinning moves. I think this is about as clear as mud, but it's the best I can do right now. If anyone else wants to jump in here, feel free. Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 4 12:09:31 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA11694 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:09:31 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:35:12 -0700 Received: from 24.42.168.50 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:35:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.42.168.50] From: "Tony Zverev" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Video from Montreal Summer Challenge 2002 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:35:12 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2002 14:35:12.0889 (UTC) FILETIME=[2453B690:01C23BC4] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey List. RUSSIAN (!!!!) web-site is proud to announce super sensational video gallery from Montreal Summer Challenge 2002. Video is brought you by Tony Zverev! Right now 5 routines and shreds are available, later (in a few days) we will publish a coolest footbag film called "The Tam Tam Jam"....Montreal players know what i am talking about. This is the first time when russian footbag community is presenting any videos to english-speaking footbag players. Please, visit us and download small-sized and quality videos http://www.profootbag.ru/video_montreal2002_e.shtml A messageboard where u can leaver all your opinions, thoughts and comments is working in english. http://www.freestyle.ru/MyFs/profootbag/messages//166.shtml Thats All. Thank You. Tony Zverev From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:48:18 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10362 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:48:18 -0700 Received: from noah (wnpgmb01dc6-res-54-80.mts.net [142.161.54.80]) by smtp2.mts.net (8.11.4/8.11.3) with SMTP id g76Argk00121 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:53:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <004101c23d37$b1700780$0300a8c0@noah> From: "Erik Chan" To: Subject: [freestyle] Shred Zero Summer Open 2002 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:54:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi. This is Erik Chan from the Hackrifice team in Winnipeg, MB, Canada. I've made a video highlighting the Shred Zero Summer Open tournament in Calgary, AB, Canada, from early July of this year. The video stars the talents of freestylers: -Rob Fuller (Calgary, AB) -Derek Vandall (Winnipeg, MB) -Jeff Lopes (Kelowna, BC) -Jon Zaleski (Kelowna, BC) Highlights of the tournament included: -midstring goliath (pixie ducking dlo/alpine smog) -big popa smurf (fairy symposium swirling[?] blender/surfing blender) -blurry whirl > simple dyno > ps whirl -legbeater > barfly > scorpions tail -plasma (quantum double over down/toe blurriest) and blurriest (blurry barfly) in one run -and lots more The video can be downloaded here: http://chan.pixelnation.cc/temp/szsofull.wmv for a limitied time. The video is 24:46 minutes long. 54.4mb. I hope it's worth the wait. Thanks, Erik Chan http://www.geocities.com/hackrifice/ PS: you can also download these two teaser videos: http://chan.pixelnation.cc/temp/goliath.mpg http://chan.pixelnation.cc/temp/robfuller.wmv From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:48:11 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10351 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:48:11 -0700 Received: from 1sgpz01 (syr-66-24-59-181.twcny.rr.com [66.24.59.181]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/RoadRunner 1.20) with SMTP id g7BEfJL29107 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001001c24145$a734cf00$b53b1842@twcny.rr.com> From: "Tyler Linscot" To: Subject: [freestyle] Received: from 1sgpz01 (syr-66-24-59-181.twcny.rr.com [66.24.59.181]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/RoadRunner 1.20) with SMTP id g7BEfJL29107 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001001c24145$a734cf00$b53b1842@twcny.rr.com> From: "Tyler Linscot" To: Subject: [freestyle] Symposium Twirl Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:44:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey list, wondering if anyone has hit a symposium twirl/swizzel. I've had it role off my foot a few times today. my goal. clip>back spin>(no plant while)op swirl>op osis. gyro sym twirl. always shreddin' ty From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:49:38 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10405 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:49:38 -0700 Received: from uadvg131.cms.usa.net (HELO cmsoutbound.mx.net) (165.212.11.131) by cmsoutbound.mx.net with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 03:13:21 -0000 Received: from Bling.math.uga.edu [65.138.3.128] by uadvg131.cms.usa.net (ASMTP/pdxdrifter@mfire.com) via mtad (CM.1201.1.04A) with ESMTP id 396gHLDNW0210M31; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:13:48 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231246.021b5f58@mfire.com> X-Sender: pdxdrifter//mfire.com@mfire.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:13:25 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Xander Faber Subject: [freestyle] Who won at World's ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org So who won freestyle at Worlds? I can't believe I have to wait so long to find out!!! Alex Faber From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:49:58 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10410 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:49:58 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:52:15 -0700 Received: from 216.27.144.66 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 23:52:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.27.144.66] From: "Stan Sagalovskiy" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] promoting footbag Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:52:15 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2002 23:52:15.0431 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A8A6570:01C23DA4] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all! www.vistaprint.com is offering 250 free color business cards (though you do have to pay for shipping.) Everyone who has ever been approached by people asking about the sport, knows the value of having a good looking card that they can give out. Anyway, here's the link: http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/ns/bcfree.asp peace, Stan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:50:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10459 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:50:53 -0700 Received: from cr976763a ([24.157.135.70]) by fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.06 201-253-122-126-106-20020509) with ESMTP id <20020813005455.YNJX334399.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@cr976763a> for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:54:55 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c24264$1db291c0$46879d18@glph.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> From: "Will Little" <242little@rogers.com> To: Subject: [freestyle] PS Da Da? Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:55:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.157.135.70] using ID <242little@rogers.com> at Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:54:55 -0400 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I have a question about a specific move. My friend Chad has been hitting Paradox Da Da Curve, and now has started hitting it without touching down with his setting/catching leg. We've been calling it Paradox Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. Does that element exist, or is it assumed in a Paradox Da-Da? He can hit it with or without planting, and it seems to have the elements of symposium. Ie: the support leg does the second dex, and the other leg sets, does the miraging dex, and then catches all without ever planting. I guess the issue is does it qualify for a symposium add? Will Little I always eat my Shred-ies! From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 21:23:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA22912 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:23:56 -0700 Received: (qmail 28074 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2002 03:58:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Aug 2002 03:58:16 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: Subject: RE: [freestyle] Who won at World's ?? Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:52:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231246.021b5f58@mfire.com> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I can't believe you haven't checked the website. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Xander Faber > Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:13 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: [freestyle] Who won at World's ?? > > > So who won freestyle at Worlds? I can't believe I have to wait > so long to > find out!!! From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 21:30:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA23251 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:30:27 -0700 Message-Id: <200208140430.VAA23251@llic.net> Received: from [209.48.222.22] by web11502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:46:50 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:46:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Vaek the Stampede? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Congratulations to Vašek! Triple Crown winner. Vince From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 11:33:25 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28855 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:33:25 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:18:35 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7C79@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] X Games in Philly Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:18:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org General update... Philly Footworks team members, as well as Ellis Piltz, and Kenny Shuyler (extreme footbag master) will be onsite at the X-Games this Saturday and Sunday (08/17 - 08/18). I wouldn't be surprised if Jon Schneider and other "locals" show as well. Where? Look for a bean bag rising and falling. Looking for the "Kick Bag" stand is probably a good place to start - I believe Ellis is placing vids for sale there, and Kenny Shuyler has an agreement to do demo's there as well. When? I believe Kenny Shuyler has demo's running at 12:30 and 4:30 from Thursday (tomorrow) through Monday. I am only going to be able to make it on Saturday and Sunday (this is the case for most Philly Footworks members) so, I'll only speak for those days.. We plan on arriving around 11:00 a.m. (possibly earlier) each day and will be playing for a long time. Information? Please check the X-Games site for any other info you may want. What I've told you above is what I know :) http://www.philadelphiaxgames.org/ later. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ellis Piltz [mailto:ezshredz@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:49 AM > > To: freestyle@footbag.org > > Subject: [freestyle] X Games in Philly > > > > > > East Coasters, > > > > I wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to > > the X Games on August 16-19 to play footbag. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 11:37:29 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28996 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:37:29 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 06:58:53 -0700 Received: from 65.92.225.51 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:58:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.92.225.51] From: "Danny Cardonne" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] PS Da Da? Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:58:52 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2002 13:58:53.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[B951B700:01C2439A] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >From: "Will Little" <242little@rogers.com> >To: >Subject: [freestyle] PS Da Da? >Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:55:21 -0400 > > Hi all, I have a question about a specific move. My friend Chad has >been hitting Paradox Da Da Curve, and now has started hitting it without >touching down with his setting/catching leg. We've been calling it >Paradox >Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. It's not paradox, it's gyro... gyro: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *SAME* IN [DEX] > ... spin paradox: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *OP* IN [DEX] > ... >>Does that element exist, or is it assumed in a Paradox Da-Da? I'll say that every move exist! just not been hit yet !! >>I guess the issue is does it qualify for a symposium add? Da Da curve has a symposium in it... so you cannot say symposium dada because it already is. CLIP > OP IN [DEX] > (NO PLANT WHILE) OP OUT [DEX] > OP CLIP [XBD] [DEL] http://www.footbag.org/moves/showmove/904102092 -- Danny From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 11:39:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA29085 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:39:24 -0700 Received: from antivirus2.its.rochester.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antivirus2.its.rochester.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g79ErHO13439 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rochester.edu (mailnull@mail1.ats.rochester.edu [128.151.224.31]) by antivirus2.its.rochester.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g79ErDw13435 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ms009h@localhost) by mail.rochester.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g79EpWZ221013674 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:51:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mail1.ats.rochester.edu: ms009h owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:51:32 -0400 From: Mike Strumpf X-Sender: ms009h@mail1.ats.rochester.edu To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] footbag in LA Times In-Reply-To: <200105291950.MAA00313@list.footbag.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Don't know if anyone will see this cause you're all off having fun at worlds, but there is a big front page article in the LA times Southern California Living section today, including a huge picture of Sam Conlon. You can read it online (article is titled "It's Still Kicking Around"), but you have to do the LA Times free registration. http://www.latimes.com/features/lifestyle/ I belive after today (Friday) that link will change, but you should be able to search by the article name. (Stupid LA Times.) Article doesn't say too much, but it says that ESPN will be airing a clip of freestyle at the X-games (courtesy of Ellis, I belive). Well, enjoy. Mike From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 13:02:37 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA01361 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:02:37 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020814194307.PUPL19356.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:43:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3D5AB52B.F346D89F@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:53:15 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Little <242little@rogers.com> CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] PS Da Da? References: <000b01c24264$1db291c0$46879d18@glph.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Will Little wrote: > > Hi all, I have a question about a specific move. My friend Chad has > been hitting Paradox Da Da Curve, and now has started hitting it without > touching down with his setting/catching leg. > We've been calling it Paradox > Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. This move isn't symposium. Symposium dexterities are done with the support leg while the other leg never touches the ground. The only part of this move that *could* be considered symposium is the butterfly part of it... but... butterflies cannot be symposium. > it seems to have the elements of symposium. > Ie: the support leg does the second dex, and the other leg sets, does the > miraging dex, and then catches all without ever planting. I guess the issue > is does it qualify for a symposium add? Right. Some would consider the second dex (the butterfly) to be symposium. But because butterfly isn't really much of a dex, it can't get the add. It is a lot like the pogo (symposium stepping) set. If the dex isn't even close to being a full dex, it can't get the syposium add. So, to sum it up. Butterflies, like a stepping set, cannot be symposium. They are stylistic differences... not add-worthy differences. Cool? -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 13:05:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA01550 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:05:14 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020814194948.QGKC19356.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:49:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3D5AB6BC.1E647792@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:59:56 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Cardonne CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] PS Da Da? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Danny Cardonne wrote: > > Paradox Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. > > It's not paradox, it's gyro... Whoa there... dada doesn't have a spin in it. > gyro: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *SAME* IN [DEX] > ... > spin paradox: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *OP* IN [DEX] > ... You've got your definitions pretty right on there (except that an out dex can be paradox too). It's just that these don't apply to pdx dada: clip > same in [pdx][dex] > op out [dex] > op clip [xbd][del] Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 17:17:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12541 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:17:53 -0700 Message-Id: <200208150017.RAA12541@llic.net> Received: from [65.92.244.246] by web11606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:04:26 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Worlds Videos!!! To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up?!! I'm putting as much video from World's up on my site as possible. http://www.flipsider.com Right now, I only have the Top Three in Open Singles, but shortly I will have all ten finalists, plus Big 3 and Shred:30 videos. Enjoy! Ellis Piltz Flipsider From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 15 15:27:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA26637 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:27:48 -0700 Received: from snipdsanchez (office158.snip.net [209.204.68.158]) by imgate2.snip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CF0D267F07 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01f501c244a4$9c252300$9e44ccd1@SNIP.NET> From: "David Sanchez" To: Subject: [freestyle] What fun I had at worlds Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:42:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org First of all I want to thank everyone responsible for making the event possible, those holding the event, those participating in the events, and anyone involved in general. I had one of the best times imaginable and found great pleasure in watching all of the people that I've never seen before. I could mention names of all of the people that amazed me but I would be here forever(plus I don't know some of the names) so I'll just mention the people that absolutely blew me away. Jim Penske was incredible and busted long run after long run with lots of sickness interwoven, very impressive. I didn't get too involved with shredding myself since I just started recovering from an injury that took over 2 months to heal, but I did kick a couple times and had lots of fun. I got the chance to kick with Brian Fournier and enjoyed watching his smooth style. A modest kid for being so darned good. Ahren Gehrman was still up to his usual, even though he wasn't competing he was still one of the most enjoyable shredders to watch. Sunil was busting out and demonstrating the absolute limit(as he pushes it further) of the dexterity world and pumped out a brilliant routine. As a side note, all of the finalists routines were prefaced by tiny video skits that were great entertainment. I'm told that Tu Vu is mostly responsible and I would like to give him some props. Unfortunately, during the presentation of the great new video "Where The Ripwalk Ends" I walked in as the video was ending. I was able to purchase a copy, but it looked like it would've been a nice experience to see a shred vid theater style. Props to Ellis for his video excellence. Speaking of vids, I hear that the Trade 2 is out. Judging from the raw material that Kenny had to work with the video will be a "necessary" element for future shredders, a virtual encyclopedia of freestyle in video format. Putting together such a thorough "lesson plan" is truly an amazing and tedious accomplishment, props to Kenny for sure. Of course I cannot mention highlights without mentioning the explosion of greatness from the Czech contingent. These kids were not only incredible shredders but seemed to have matching personalities. Honza was incredible and busted some sickness in the sick three. I don't remember exactly what it was because I'm a space cadet, but I know it was two crazy moves to a locomotion, which made me shake my head with disbelief. There was also Ales who had personality galore and showed up ready to compete and to make his impression on the world. He did some wonderful shredding and tore it up a bit with doubles as well. Vasik was indescribable. Anything that could be said about this kid would either be seen as an exaggeration, or would simply not be believed. This kid's shred is something that everyone should have the pleasure of seeing, you have to see it to believe it. Every time he touched the bag I watched closely, but am still baffled. Sometimes certain areas explode with ability, apparently the Czech Republic is bursting now and Vasik appears as the light from within. I know it sounds corny but like I said before, his abilities are indescribable. I thank the kids from Prague for making it all the way across the world to compete and perform and look forward to seeing the competition on their side of the world. Commenting about the open singles results is a touchy subject. While Vasik and Ryan both performed *perfect* routines, and if not perfect surely enough to put the judges in a tough position, only one routine can get 1st. Ryan performed an unimaginable amount of tricks while going right along with his music selection, hitting move after move and only slowing down to match the music, as perfect of a routine as I could picture. Vasik's routine had all the flash and flare that Ryan's had, arguably more? but did have one thing that Ryan did not, a drop. I am not by any means trying to take anything away from Vasik, as he deserves all the respect in the world, nor am I trying to say anything about the judges or the judging system, as the judges were faced with an incredibly difficult situation and a newly implemented system(which shows results almost immediately and will work with time and tweaking). With competition as close as the open singles, the only winners are the spectators, and I surely won my admission's worth times ten. Ryan surely cannot be told that he did not defend his title. In the end, the competition was pure entertainment. Tim Kelly had so much personality, perhaps too much for some, that he glued the performances together with ease and virtual seamlessness. Any time that Tim could not occupy with quirky remarks and juggling wonders was filled by performances by Alex Zerbe and ??? (So sorry that I don't know the name but the other portion of the Brothers with Different Mothers routine). Alex was both impressive as a footbagger as well as an entertaining comedian, truly unique performances with tricycles, balloons with footbags inside, oversized glasses and boxing gloves, and a darned woman's bathing suit. All this and deservingly made it to finals on FOOTBAG skills, not to mention the bravery, comedy, and pure energy that it took to do what he did. Fire was a bit much for the venue, but the crowd sure enjoyed it. I need to wrap this message up before it becomes a novel, so thank you all since it would be impossible to thank everyone individually, and see you next year at Prague. Shred it up, David Sanchez Philly Footworks P.S. Come out to the X-Games, many incredible athletes will be showcasing their skills, including some crazy stylers. I will be there Saturday later in the day and Sunday all day. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 16 10:12:30 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA05227 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:12:30 -0700 Received: (from www@localhost) by mail9.bigmailbox.com (8.11.6/8.10.0) id g7GGnsX26956; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:49:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:49:54 -0700 Message-Id: <200208161649.g7GGnsX26956@mail9.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [24.128.13.123] From: "Neil Bornstein" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Great Paradox Debate Part 2 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I can hear the groans already... Anyhoo, to start off let's repeat the definition of Paradox as defined by the paradox tutorial at http://www.footbag.org/facts/show?id=paradox-tutorial "Paradox" as a term only makes sense when used to describe a move that is more difficult than, but otherwise identical to another move -- wherein the difference is entirely attributed to the *set*. Furthermore, the set for a paradox move is always from the cross-body position. My complaint is that there are other sets which make a move considerably more difficult that aren't crossbody. Take for example a dragonfly kick. It is an easy trick to do, and personally one of my favorites. Now consider a dragonfly kick set from the opposite outside stall. out>jump[bod]>op in[dex]>op inside One of the ways a Paradox move is described as more difficult is the "double-hip-pivot." Imagine if you will, the aforementioned dragonfly kick set from the opposite outside. For the purposes of demonstration, we will assume it starts with a right outside delay. From there, one would set the bag about chest height, and put the setting leg down. To get the left leg in position for the dexterity, turn your body to the right, and perform the dexterity by jumping and turning back to the left. Then, kick the bag with the inside of the right foot. If you try this for yourself, you may notice that this version of the dragonfly kick is appreciably harder than the normal version, and at least as difficult as the conventional paradox dragonfly kick. In conclusion, I propose that paradox not only refer to crossbody sets, but any set that can make a move harder. Thank you, "Thwap Man" Neil Bornstein From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 11:30:28 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA26017 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:30:28 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 06:07:43 -0700 Received: from 210.49.190.48 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:07:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.49.190.48] From: "Dan Ednie" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Worlds Draw Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:07:42 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Aug 2002 13:07:43.0244 (UTC) FILETIME=[12AA34C0:01C245EF] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was just checking through the scores from the worlds '02 Open Freestyle Final, the one shrouded in controversy. I added up each score on an excel spread sheet and was pleasently surprised to find that vasek, though having two judges fouvour him and two drawing him with ryan, had exactly the same total score! Ryan Difficulty 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 28.9 Artistic 5.8 6 6 5.8 5.8 29.4 Total 58.3 Vasek Difficulty 5.6 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.8 29 Artistic 5.7 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 29.3 Total 58.3 We all know Ryan went dropless and was as usual, as close to perfect as possible, and legitimatly "defended" the title. Many still beleive that though he lost tecnically (which he didn't) he is still No.1. But then there was Vasek who did everything needed to win, almost flawless, one drop, but I am willing to forgive a drop if I see three quadless at the end of a routine. My instincts told me it was ryan, the scoreboard told me it was Vasek but in the end it was a draw, they're total scores were in fact, the same. And they should be both known as World Champions in Open Freestyle, I think it adds a symbolic touch representing the reletivly non-competitive nature of footbag. Dan Ednie From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 11:58:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA26825 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:58:09 -0700 From: "Ted Huff" Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.4f.21fb0dc4 (4362); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:09:55 EDT Subject: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10572 --part1_4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org First of all, I'd like to state that as a non-freestyler, but as a footbag fan, game and sport co-founder, and sponsor, I saw it !! Worlds freestyle was fantastic, and Tu Vu, Tim Kelly, Eric Wulff, Steve Goldberg, and all the judges, all the B.A.F.L. players & volunteers deserve big thanks for putting this together. It was awesome. The new movie, Where The Ripwalk Ends is great ! Buy it ! And, buy Tricks of the Trade II next month !! But, I suggest that any freestyler reading this, and was at finals, speak up with their own opinion of the scoring, and the outcome, otherwise you will face the consequences of wondering if the system allows for tainted results in the future. Or tainted judging. Players, such as Ryan Mulroney and Peter Irish, and Vasek Klouda, as examples, deserve fair scoring . So do the sponsors and fans. I don't think that Ryan Mulroney lost in defending his title, but I also feel that Vasek was declared the winner, so..... so be it. Congratulations to the new Jedi !! He was HUGE fantastic, but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that were biased before the finals started, based on hype. If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean something more than an afterthought to the other scoring used, then something is wrong. You might as well let the players judge themselves, as I think that what was seen was believed better than what was written on finals night. I'm just a fan and supporter of the sport, and I know plenty that attended feel the same way. That's what is sad. 2 of the best ever routines done in 1 night, but .................... who really won ? Did the sport, that you are a part of, win? Speak up, because tournament freestyle is great, and I certainly encourage all freestylers to make their sport better ! Support the IFPA. Get involved in your own sport ! Theo , The Instigator FootbagHallofFame@footbag.org --part1_4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53_boundary-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 12:23:31 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA27894 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:23:31 -0700 Received: from Tina (cs24243230-212.austin.rr.com [24.243.230.212]) by sm14.texas.rr.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g7HJ76ul027118; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:07:06 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01c24621$02241760$b47ba8c0@Tina> Reply-To: "Tina Lewis" From: "Tina Lewis" To: References: <4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53@aol.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:05:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, As a non-freestyler but huge fan I found the commentary at Flipsider.com very helpful in understanding the results and after taking a look at the the videos of the performances that Eli has posted - it looked even closer than I remember it at the time. Both are amazing - I'm glad I didn't have to judge! Flipsider.com is a great site! Thanks to Eli. Tina. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 12:42:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA28672 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:42:32 -0700 Received: from pd4mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.214]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H10005BT5RIJ9@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.6 (built Apr 26 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1000DO75RIOX@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-70-216-74.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.216.74]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H10003GA5RHGR@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:20:32 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback X-Sender: akeh@shawmail To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817115846.00a31190@shawmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted Huff Wrote: >>but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that were biased before >>the finals started, based on hype. If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 >>ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean something more than an afterthought to the other >>scoring used, then something is wrong. You might as well let the players >>judge themselves, WHOA!!!! Hold on a second there, Ted. First of all, Adds really don't mean *anything*. Yes, Ryan had more adds, but Vasek's routine was technically superior from a *uniques* standpoint and from a risk standpoint. Stringing 3 5's together towards the end of a routine is nothing short of phenominal. The *only* reason Ryan would have won was because his *presentation* card was better. This "he had more adds" talk is useless. The judges did an outstanding job!!! When you keep in mind how little time was involved in making the decision, I believe no one has a right to say that they were "wrong". They did the best they could under extreme pressure. I think calling 5 *professional, experienced and intelligent* judges "biased... based on hype" is completely inaccurate and somewhat libelous. Ted, you stated that you "are just a fan and supporter".... what kind of support is this? Are you qualified to judge? Could you have made a "fair" call in under two minutes? Seriously, and with all due respect Ted, get real !!! I think you owe those judges an apology. For now, Allan H. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:42:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA29749 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:42:56 -0700 From: "Kenny Shults" Received: from KenShults@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.197.b982bc1 (4410); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <197.b982bc1.2a9021a6@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:01:10 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: Thehuff1@aol.com CC: freestyle@footbag.org, allan@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_197.b982bc1.2a9021a6_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 534 --part1_197.b982bc1.2a9021a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted, Ted, Ted, my friend, you missed the mark by quite a ways on this one. While I happen to agree that Ryan should have won, my reasons have almost nothing to do with any of your points. Total Adds is almost meaningless as a guage of the risk the player took. Average Adds per trick is better but still doesn't mean much. The most important things that contribute to the real difficulty in a routine are the number of really hard tricks like 5-Adds the player does, how they are linked in combinations and how many unique tricks the player does. The more different tricks, the harder it is. I could go out and rack up 400 Adds or more doing nothing but Around the Worlds and Clippers. Doing tricks like this would be virtually zero risk but I would have a lot of total Adds. This is an exaggeration of the comparison between Ryan and Vasek but I want to point out why Total Adds don't mean much. Vasek did seven 5-Add tricks with three of those in a row at the end of his routine. Ryan did three 5-Add tricks with none of them being in a row or even in combination with a 4-Add trick. Vasek also did dramatically more unique 4-Add+ tricks than Ryan. Vasek was superior in his spinning combinations, doing multi-spin combos in both directions mixing both 3-Add and 4-Add spinning tricks together in both directions. Ryan spun much less and I think, only in one direction. Now on the other side of the argument, Vasek's juggle series was very short and kind of shaky. Ryan's juggling was much better. Ryan's flyers were much better than Vasek who was very uncomfortable with his flyers. Ryan did about 15 more tricks in two minutes than Vasek. That is a lot and deserves some credit. I think you're giving it more than it's due however because it was one of the things flashed on the screen. One of the reasons it's included on the results screen is that it is an objective element that can be counted in real time very easily. The same is true of Adds. All of the things I've listed above are things that we rely on a panel of experienced judges to be able to see. I can understand that it is difficult for the audience to tell the difference in relative difficulty between Ryan and Vasek since both players are hitting really big tricks. That is the judges' job and I can tell you that it was a very difficult one that was influenced only by the fact that both players did such an awesome job and not by any hype or personal bias. The main reason I believe Ryan should have won is that Vasek dropped a very easy trick and the footbag went quite a distance away from him and it was a major disruption in his routine that, in my mind, outweighed the fact that he had an advantage on the technical side. I also think Ryan has a smoother more confident style that added additional margin to his artistic advantage in my opinion. The opinion of the judges however was that, by the narrowest margin ever, Vasek's routine was better. I would have to agree with Allan that you came down way too hard on the judges and that your assumptions regarding bias and hype were just not accurate. I think these judges did a great job under very difficult circumstances and they should be congratulated for having the courage to make a very difficult and potentially unpopular decision. They certainly don't deserve to be publicly disparaged. I believe it is fine to disagree with the result, in fact I disagree with it. But just because I disagree with it or you disagree with it, doesn't mean it's not correct. The most qualified panel of judges ever assembled for a Freestyle final judged it the way they saw it and I am very comfortable that the basis of their decision was sound and fair to all competitors. As a sponsor, fan and ardent supporter of footbag, I applaud the judges for their outstanding effort and the event organizers for a phenomenal event. I think we are extraordinarily fortunate to have witnessed two of the greatest performances in Freestyle history one right after the other and I can't wait to see what these guys come up with next year in Prague! Sincerely, Kenny Shults 6-time Singles Freestyle World Champion 2002 Freestyle Finals Add Counter --part1_197.b982bc1.2a9021a6_boundary-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:49:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30042 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:49:07 -0700 Received: from user-2ivebga.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.46.10] helo=0017407414) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17gGno-0000ES-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:32:33 -0700 Message-ID: <003501c24668$116574c0$0a2ef7a5@0017407414> Reply-To: "Josh Penney" From: "Josh Penney" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:33:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I favor no one in the recent competition. I was not there, so I have no opinion of "who was better". This said: "Ted Huff" said: > >If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 ADDS & 1 Drop don't >mean something more than an afterthought to the other scoring used, then >something is wrong. > In short; adds are subjective, and so is difficulty. This is the reason these measurements are used as an "afterthought." In brief: The drop, perhaps means something, but the rest- I wouldn't be so sure. 'Adds,' you will recall, reflect "add categories" which are neither exclusive nor exhaustive regarding "difficulty." There are plenty of high-difficulty, low-add moves, and vice versa; therefore 'Adds' are good to determine a general sense of "difficulty" but cannot be used as an objective tool- especially in this case. The objective of this sport is not easily quantifiable, like blazing a ball into a hoop or crossing a finish line. It is as individual to each player as the players are to themselves and each other. These different physiological advantages and disadvantages for each player [based on a trizillion factors] make for a beautiful dance, a wonderful discipline, and an unprecedented art form outside the martial arts. It does not as easily become a list of modifiers, hash marks in boxes, carry-the-ones, or other such nonsense. That is why changes have been made to attempt to accommodate a basic acceptance of this understanding. less yakkin more hackin. JP From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:53:11 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30203 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:11 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:21:36 -0700 Received: from 63.60.196.53 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:21:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.60.196.53] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:21:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 05:21:36.0566 (UTC) FILETIME=[1FA38D60:01C24677] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, Basing the win on adds is ridiculous! If someone got up and did 400 toe stalls without a drop, should they win? Having watched the videos I thought Vasek was the best. It was close but he pulled off beter moves with more variety. I think the penalty for a drop should maybe be little higher but since it isn't, Vasek is a fair winner! Jeremy From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:53:44 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30214 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:09:29 -0700 Received: from 210.50.57.125 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:09:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.50.57.125] From: "Brendan Erskine" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] China laver modifications Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:09:29 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 10:09:29.0576 (UTC) FILETIME=[5727B680:01C2469F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Just a quick question. I currently use millenium lavers although they're reaching the end of their life. When modifying these shoes, I had no trouble removing the padding from the inside of the shoe. However, i'm having great difficulty removing this padding from my new 'china laver' shoes. Is it even possible to remove the inner padding from the china lavers? Thanks, Brendan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:53:55 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30222 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:55 -0700 Message-Id: <200208181953.MAA30222@llic.net> Received: from [209.48.222.22] by web11508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:17:20 PDT Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:17:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <200208172226.PAA32753@llic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > First of all, I'd like to state that as a > non-freestyler, but as a footbag > fan, game and sport co-founder, and sponsor, I saw > it !! Hey Ted. I said I'd get back to you after I previewed the jduges tabulations when you posted your opinions on the open footbag list serve. I'm sorry you couldn't wait. What you saw was 10 greast athletes each contriuting what they could to our sport in the Worlds Freestyle Final Event. What you didn't see was what the judges declared to be the greatest acheivement from that night for the sport. And as I said in my response on the other list, I can't take criticisms of the judges assigned the very difficult task of judging finals freestyle routines lightly. Please, no more slandering of the expert panel of judges, Ted. Their bias, if they demonstrated any bias, is not against any player, nor for any player. If they have a bias its for what is new, exciting, and beyond their expected realm of performance for worlds routines, and it was Vasik who gave them that. Undeniably. Please read on. Adds and add/contact ratio are incapable of describing the difficult nature of Vasiks routine. Adds and ratio only determine the total and avarage elements of difficulty (per trick for ratio), but it does not take into account linking difficulty, nor the variety of the moves hit per level of difficulty. This is what the judges saw, and what the judges rewarded- Vasik blew away previous years efforts in this direction. To them , this was much more significant than a single drop. If this is controversial, so be it, but please do not confuse this controversy with the judges determination as being controversial. They judged well, fairly and justifiably so. This controversy has existed forever in the life of judged artistic performances- its nature is the problem of rewarding technical prowess or showmanship. Where is Dr. Harley when you need him? Looking at the routines superificially my inclination is that Ryan hit the more professional looking routine. But in a developing sport, is it merely the superficial professional qualities that ought to be considered? Looking at it with the eyes of the judges, and the analysts that have thoroughly picked apart every detail of the routines over this past week, and seeing the routines in the context of freestyle in its entirety over the past two decades, I have to commend the judges for their realizations. Vasik has taken technical prowess in routine performance to a new level- in much, if not exactly, the same way Ryan did in previous years. The ability to see this development might require expert knowledge, and this year a system of judging was used that caters better to what the experts can see directly than the standard judging system used in previous years was capable of (side note: I think this means the older system needs tuning as a result of, not replacement by, this current system). Looking at it another way, how many times did Ryan get 2nd place in the past, when many people felt he ought to have gotten first? ( Sorry Ryan, I see the nature of your disappointment throughout the years, this one included. Much thanks for innovating, regulating, and inspiring. The future of the sport owes you much.) I heard grumblings about how Ryan should have won for each of his three years competing in Open before he won it in 2000. I will risk saying it was the standard worlds judging system not accounting for Ryans breakthroughs in routine performance that prevented him being seen as a winner in the same manner Vasik was decalred to be winner this year. (>breathe<) Additionally, ts those same breakthroughs from Ryan that have contributed to the awesome Czech Republic ownership of a new age of freestyle skills. You can see Ryan's innovation in all the Czech performances. You might even be able to swap the music. I think the controversy is over. Ryan presented a great routine. He also inspired the new wave of incredible players to reach the heights they are at. Nothing that happened at this world championship cheapens the effotts or accomplishments of Ryan Mulroney. If anything they show how great he is more than anything that has happened before now, including his titles. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:57:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30370 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:57:42 -0700 Received: from laxerone@netscape.net by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.52.3e53db7 (16225); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.net (mow-m21.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.137]) by air-in02.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILININ21-0818092321; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:23:21 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:22:59 -0400 From: "Jan Zimmermann" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Message-ID: <54F89A09.33C788F6.0078AB1E@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by llic.net id GAA19445 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi All, I must say that I agree with Allans reproach of Ted's posting, although I think we should keep a discussion like this objective and not get personal. I have watched the routines briefly and I must say my first impression is that vasek was marginally better. More variety, difficult moves and combos and he took a lot more risks. Also I don't think their presentation was much different. You can see that Vasek oriented himself at Ryan with the type of music and style of routine. What beats me every time (and maybe this is a discussion we have to hold) is how the presentation scores are derived. How can a player like Ryan (who is an extremely technical player) get better presentation scores than technical scores? How come that most presentation score match the technical scores of the players (only exception at first glance: Alex Zerbe)? What is presentation? Well obviously, playing to the beat and having a choreographed routine is one aspect, but in my opinion that's only about half of it. I miss the show elements, the interaction with the audience, all that stuff. And seriously, is it necessary to hit over 300 adds and 120 contacts to show that you are a good freestyler? wouldn't 200 adds and 70 contacts be enough? Would't it be nicer to give the players the possibility to put more show elements in their routine without punishing them because they loose time and therefore adds? This would only work if we review our way of judging presentation. As a ! basis for discussion, I for instance would have judged both ryan and vasek a near perfect 6.0 on the technical part. On presentation however both would score around 4 on my pad. Remembering last years worlds and Lon Smiths routine I would say that with maybe one or two less drops (I think he had about 3 or 4)he could stand a chance of beating them because his presentation was much better although he might have had less contacts and therefore less adds (his style is a lot slower after all, which doesn't mean at all that he is a worse freestyler). OK that is my opinion, just wanted to state it publicly once again:) Jan P.S. That I am using specific names in my arguments is not meant in any way disrespectfully to anyone, I just need to use you guys as examples to get my point across. Allan Haggett wrote: >Ted Huff Wrote: >>>but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that were biased before >>the finals started, based on hype. If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 >>ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean something more than an afterthought to the other >>scoring used, then something is wrong. You might as well let the players >>judge themselves, > >WHOA!!!! Hold on a second there, Ted. >First of all, Adds really don't mean *anything*. Yes, Ryan had more adds, but Vasek's routine was technically superior from a *uniques* standpoint and from a risk standpoint. Stringing 3 5's together towards the end of a routine is nothing short of phenominal. The *only* reason Ryan would have won was because his *presentation* card was better. This "he had more adds" talk is useless.>Ted, you stated that you "are just a fan and supporter".... what kind of support is this? Are you qualified to judge? Could you have made a "fair" call in under two minutes? Seriously, and with all due respect Ted, get real !!! I think you owe those judges an apology. >For now, >Allan H. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 13:02:30 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30558 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:02:30 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1/SAS.05) id g7HMUnZ23994; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alessandre S. Naro" Message-Id: <200208172230.g7HMUnZ23994@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: Thehuff1@aol.com (Ted Huff) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53@aol.com> from "Ted Huff" at Aug 16, 2002 08:09:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org First off, a big thanks to Eli and anyone else involved at flipsider for making the videos freely available so soon after Worlds. You're awesome. Secondly, I am curious if anyone can answer this question: What would the standings have been under the old system? I think this is an important question that I have not seen addressed here on the list-serv. Having only seen the three videos that are currently available at flipsider, I think the judges did a great job. Several of the comments have focused on Vasek's "drop". Having watched the routine, I don't think the drop was a big deal. If I was asked to subjectively judge that routine, the drop would hardly register in my evaluation, cause it came at a harmless moment in his routine, off a minor toe catch attempt. I think this is something the new system was created to provide; the human ability to dynamically assign relative values to otherwise static numbers. In my view, it succeded admirably at this. Instead, what registered from Vasek's routine was blurry whirl, whirling swirl, scorpion tail, a lot of uniques, both on the front-side and back-side, interesting flyers, both side spins sealed off with mobius, and a monster big 3 apex that slam dunked the matter. To me it was a very dynamic and stimulating routine. As for Ryan's routine, he didn't stop. It's nuts, he goes fast, complex, and doesn't pause. Even the various elements of his routine, like flyers and unusuals, all are done quickly. It's amazing. He was also better co-ordinated to the music than Vasek was, something that people so far have seemed to agree on as well. I think at this point, both routines are equal in merit. To decide a winner, you have to scrutinize further. You have to achieve an even finer level of granularity. And having watched both routines, I personally would grudgingly penalize Ryan for having a slightly repetitive feel in his routine, exemplified by numerous blurry set's off his left clipper, frequently into ripwalks. While this contributed to his higer add count, it also contributed to the unbalanced tally in unique moves that Eli provided in an earlier e-mail. Honestly, I really don't think the judges could have gone wrong with their final decision either way. And I don't think they did either. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 13:02:46 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30578 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:02:46 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:54:37 -0700 Received: from 210.49.190.48 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:54:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.49.190.48] From: "Dan Ednie" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds Draw Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:54:36 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Aug 2002 23:54:37.0243 (UTC) FILETIME=[719C70B0:01C24649] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry everyone, didn't mean to get anyone's hopes up I read the scores from the end of the flipsider videos, not from Eric's site. This coupled with my wanting for ryan to win must have blurred my vision. thanks Bob for that, But let's just make it a draw anyway Just Kidding Perhaps though if there were a poll as to who won, that might take the edge off some of Ryan's fan's despair. Then again it could only act to inflame the pain. Dan Ednie >From: "Bob Glasser" >To: ednie@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds Draw >Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:51:05 -0400 > > >i think you got vasek's score wrong. if you go to eric wulf's site he has >them listed. they are as follows > >difficulty- 5.6 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 > >you can go here and check it out > >http://www.footbag.org/worlds2002/resultsFreeFinalSin.html > > > > Vasek > >Difficulty 5.6 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.8 29 > >Artistic 5.7 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 29.3 > >Total 58.3 > > > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 13:03:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30629 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:03:32 -0700 Message-Id: <200208182003.NAA30629@llic.net> Received: from [209.48.222.22] by web11505.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:07:55 PDT Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:07:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds Draw To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <200208172226.PAA32753@llic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Dan, thats a pretty keen obseravtion about the scores totals, but this system actually doesn't work out that way. Basically, since the system isn't actually quantifying anything, except on a per judge basis by each judge on their own criteria, you are comparing scores based on different ideologies. Its that apple and oranges thing. Might both be fruit, but otherwise they are fairly incomparable. It is a nice irony that the scores work out that way, but each judge used their own numbering system. They could have come up with the same results and used wildly different scales for their scoring. The more i try and exmplain it, however, the more i marvel at your observation... thanks dan. -vince From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 15:11:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA02812 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 15:11:14 -0700 Received: (qmail 15802 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2002 00:13:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Aug 2002 00:13:30 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: Subject: [freestyle] World Championship Results - Open Singles Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:07:27 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I want to make sure you all know that I fully understand there is a more than average controversial feeling surrounding the final results with regards to 1st and 2nd place in open singles freestyle at WFC - 2002. As freestyle director I take this seriously. Myself and the freestyle staff are looking into this closely and will report back in more detail some time in the next couple of days. Without going into detail however, I can tell you all right now that I have already found enough hard evidence to support the FACT that the judges did an OUTSTANDING job on finals night. Therefore, I ask that you please respect the judges and the players and post messages thoughtfully. It is only the fault of the players that this was an extremely tough decision for the judges to make. The players, particularly Vasek and Ryan, stepped up BIG TIME and at just the right time. Anyone who was there knows that. Wow! This was probably the greatest fight for first place in singles freestyle history. The judges stepped it up right along with the players and made a very tough decision. Evidence shows they did so with care and sound reasoning. I applaud them for that and encourage you too also. That is not to say that I believe talk or debate over who you think won or got second should cease and desist. Not now and not even after I post evidence do I expect or want that. But I ask that you not accuse or assume mis-conduct simply because judges did not see it they way you may have. Again, the players made it tough to call... not the judges. And, the close call was represented in the judges scores and is posted for everyone to see. I'll post further detail in the next couple days. Thanks for you concern. Eric Wulff co-Executive Producer Director of Freestyle World Footbag Championships - 2002 (415) 681-5729 From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 22:56:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA22663 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:56:27 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:31:24 -0700 Received: from 68.20.181.51 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 05:31:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.20.181.51] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:31:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2002 05:31:24.0841 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8B0F190:01C24741] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have no comment on the winner of the routines--I was not there. I saw the videos--UNBELIEVABLE PERFORMANCES. Both are remarkable. I have this to say, drops are big, and if they are not right now in the current judging system, they should be. Look at... Martial arts and kata... You can't stumble in the midst of executing a move and win. Gymnastics and balance beam... You can't fall off the beam and win. Figure skating... Nope, falls not allowed here. Skateboarding... Nope. In sports where balance and physical abilities to maintain an activity while demonstrating that balance, you can not lose control (i.e., stumble, fall, drop, etc.). Footbag is one of those sports. Ian Dubman From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 00:49:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA26529 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:49:24 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:38:15 -0700 Received: from 63.105.21.223 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 07:38:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.105.21.223] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 07:38:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2002 07:38:15.0216 (UTC) FILETIME=[60D40300:01C24753] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted Wrote: >[Vasek] was HUGE fantastic, but I don't think he won, except via a group of >judges that were biased before the finals started, based on hype. Since I was sitting at the judging table I'd like to think I had a pretty good look at both routines. I honestly thought Ryan would win, but I also felt it could have gone either way. Vasek's routine was more difficult, Ryan's routine was better choreographed (of course that's only one element of presentation). I guess all I really want to say is that it could have gone either way, and for a judging system that in computer terms is still probably about v0.7 I'd say it worked pretty well. Also just as an aside, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the only time a non-BAP member has made it to the top 4 since it's formation (Ryan came close in 97'). -Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:30:54 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA25887 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:30:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 11600 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2002 18:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail14.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Aug 2002 18:56:08 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "Jan Zimmermann" , Subject: RE: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:50:06 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <54F89A09.33C788F6.0078AB1E@netscape.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I am a bit surprised at your review of the artistic impression of Ryan and Vasek. Their performances brought tears to peoples eyes, goose bumps to many, and everyone to their feet. It was not the technical aspects that brought forth such emotional reactions. I am a person who holds presentation high and it is my opinion that Ryan Mulroney presented... artistically... perhaps the greatest routine in freestyle history. He hit things on the beat in so many instances it is awe inspiring. When the music changed pace... he changed pace. Did you not see his blurry and stepping knee bumps exactly to the music? How about his change to nice little flyer sequence during the happy go lucky part of the music? How about the dramatic juggle at the finish that went right along with the drama of the music? New BAP name... Ryan the "Maestro" Mulroney. Also, even if Ryan's routine was more impressive artistically... Vasek's was amazing also. Although not quite on the same level. But, did you see Vasek's spinning sequence?... on both sides... back to back... right along with the music. Yes, these are shredding style freestylers but they are also choreography masters. They do not need to stop their styling and directly engage the crowd with eye contact. They invite the viewer... draw them even... right into their performance. The crowd knew when and when to react or applaud or simply observe in stunned silence. Different freestylers have different ways of presenting their art. All are well appreciated if done to perfection. 50 contacts and 150 adds will get just as much respect, in my book... artistically, when done well as will 130 contacts and 400 adds. Artistic impression has little to do with speed or difficulty or number of moves. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Jan Zimmermann > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 6:23 AM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback > > > Hi All, > > I must say that I agree with Allans reproach of Ted's posting, > although I think we should keep a discussion like this objective > and not get personal. > > I have watched the routines briefly and I must say my first > impression is that vasek was marginally better. More variety, > difficult moves and combos and he took a lot more risks. Also I > don't think their presentation was much different. You can see > that Vasek oriented himself at Ryan with the type of music and > style of routine. > > What beats me every time (and maybe this is a discussion we have > to hold) is how the presentation scores are derived. How can a > player like Ryan (who is an extremely technical player) get > better presentation scores than technical scores? How come that > most presentation score match the technical scores of the players > (only exception at first glance: Alex Zerbe)? What is > presentation? Well obviously, playing to the beat and having a > choreographed routine is one aspect, but in my opinion that's > only about half of it. I miss the show elements, the interaction > with the audience, all that stuff. And seriously, is it necessary > to hit over 300 adds and 120 contacts to show that you are a good > freestyler? wouldn't 200 adds and 70 contacts be enough? Would't > it be nicer to give the players the possibility to put more show > elements in their routine without punishing them because they > loose time and therefore adds? This would only work if we review > our way of judging presentation. As a ! > basis for discussion, I for instance would have judged both ryan > and vasek a near perfect 6.0 on the technical part. On > presentation however both would score around 4 on my pad. > Remembering last years worlds and Lon Smiths routine I would say > that with maybe one or two less drops (I think he had about 3 or > 4)he could stand a chance of beating them because his > presentation was much better although he might have had less > contacts and therefore less adds (his style is a lot slower after > all, which doesn't mean at all that he is a worse freestyler). > > OK that is my opinion, just wanted to state it publicly once again:) > > Jan > > P.S. That I am using specific names in my arguments is not meant > in any way disrespectfully to anyone, I just need to use you guys > as examples to get my point across. > > Allan Haggett wrote: > > >Ted Huff Wrote: > >>>but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that > were biased before >>the finals started, based on hype. If 380 > ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 >>ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean > something more than an afterthought to the other >>scoring used, > then something is wrong. You might as well let the players > >>judge themselves, > > > >WHOA!!!! Hold on a second there, Ted. > >First of all, Adds really don't mean *anything*. Yes, Ryan had > more adds, but Vasek's routine was technically superior from a > *uniques* standpoint and from a risk standpoint. Stringing 3 5's > together towards the end of a routine is nothing short of > phenominal. The *only* reason Ryan would have won was because his > *presentation* card was better. This "he had more adds" talk is > useless.>Ted, you stated that you "are just a fan and > supporter".... what kind of support is this? Are you qualified to > judge? Could you have made a "fair" call in under two minutes? > Seriously, and with all due respect Ted, get real !!! I think you > owe those judges an apology. > >For now, > >Allan H. > > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:31:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA25910 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:31:42 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:26:55 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7CDA@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Philly X-Games recap Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:26:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all. Back at work after a long weekend of shredding at the X-Games. Pretty sore and wishing I was at the games again today, but alas, I must "work" (or email the freestyle list). Anyhow, we had a really great time. Kick Bag footbags (www.kickbag.com) sponsored our team of freestylers by giving us tons and tons of water and by generally just being really really cool people. Can't thank them enough. Kenny Shuyler was awesome too -- He secured scheduled demo times for us and had a TV crew onsite to film our demo during day 1... He showed his XTreme Footbag skills off while the rest of our group put together a pretty nice shred circle. Again, super nice guy. Had a blast getting to hang with everyone from Kick Bag and with Kenny and his friends. Anyhow, here are highlights and information... This info only includes stuff that I saw (I was only there Saturday and Sunday, but the games are a week long) - The X-Games drew about 25,000 spectators on both Saturday and again on Sunday. We were *highly* visible. - On Saturday, Ellis Piltz, Myself, Kaiser Ahmad, Gordon Scott Bevier, Bob Green, Jonathan Schneider, and Jake Milofsky (I don't think I forgot anyone) started shredding around lunch time. We were playing between the bike street course and the skating street course. There were two huge sets of bleachers towering above us and a huge crowd of people around us. I kid you not that the X-Games provided the *perfect* crowd to enjoy our shred. At any given time there were hundreds (thousands?) of people around... and many of those people were very interested in watching us play. We got lots of questions along the lines of "Is this the next X-Game?", "Do you guys play soccer?", "Can you Irish dance?" (at which point Ellis pulled off a few nice tricks with middle fingers extended, but that's another story) etc. I saw Ellis and Scott giving their autographs to a few younger kids, and news crews were right on top of us getting some footage. Besides the temperature (about 105 degrees all weekend long without any shade) there's not much bad you can say about Saturday... Well, except for the X-Games employee that told us we needed to move from one shred spot because "we were too good and drawing too large of a crowd". Can we help it that we're superstars? :) - On Sunday, much of the same shred crew as above showed up. Kenny Shults, Brad Kaplan, and Dave Sanchez also made it out. We began the day doing a demo for friends of Kick Bag. We had a great camera angle with the huge X-Games rock climbing wall right behind us. It was really hot, but we all managed to pull out some worthy tricks for the camera. Ellis and Jonathan came up particularly big during this portion of the day. A little bit after this, once Kenny Shults had arrived, we moved over near the bleachers again, but found it too packed to get in front of the crowds as Dave Mirra was going nuts on the bike course. The stands were packed to capacity and we were shredding behind them. Plenty of people watching us. Then, the bike event ended, and the bleachers emptied. Literally 3,000+ people poured out of the stands directly into our circle. Kenny of course thought this to be good motivation to really really really rip it up. I'm still sore from being the next player in the circle after him. He was just cruising to 20+ contacts every time.. .spinning whirls, ps whirls, ripwalking and blurring and atomic.. double dexes.. He was posessed. Needless to say the crowd was thrilled. People were cheering after every run. It was awesome. Eventually we got tired and chilled out for awhile. Ellis introduced me to a new shred shoe that I'm going to try out.. It's the Adidas LM 3. The benefits of Milleniums but better catching surfaces and better support. The verdict is still not in on the shoes, but Ellis played in them all weekend and I didn't notice him doing anything but busting huge tricks. So, if you're in the market, this might be a good option for you. Anyhow, later on we finally found some shade and started up yet another circle. Again, we went from starting unnoticed to being surrounded by an ever changing group of interested onlookers. It got to the point where so many kids were joining the circle, that shredders just weren't shredding anymore. They were teaching! Not the most fun for a shredder, but awesome for the game. - OK, I've got to wrap this up shortly.. I really do have to work. But, so far, I've had a bunch of coworkers and friends report they've seen us on TV. WB17 (warner brothers I think) and Fox Sports Net both aired footbag segments in their coverage of the games. So we stole a little spotlight. Overall, I haven't had this much fun too many times before. Later. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:34:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA26008 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:34:09 -0700 Received: (qmail 24958 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2002 20:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Aug 2002 20:20:57 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "Ian Dubman" , Subject: RE: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:14:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is a good point and these are good sports to make comparisons too. However, in gymnastics you CAN fall of balance beam and still win. In ice skating you CAN fall down on the ice and still come out in first. There is absolutely no rule regarding this. It is more unlikely that you will come out in first pace if "screw up" one trick because far fewer tricks are attempted compared to a footbag freestyle routine. Therefore, mistakes such as these stand out more as obvious and significant blunders ... as they should. There is yet to be a sport similar enough to footbag freestyle to which we can reliably analogize to in this regard. I was a gymnast in high school and college and also a diver and diving coach for high school. I know from experience that in an average gymnastics routine, regardless of the event, at most... only about 1 fifth as many tricks are performed as in a footbag freestyle routine. From observing, it seems much the same in skate boarding, ice skating, surfing and other sports where the performer is "showing off" moves to be judged by a panel of "experts". Drops need be weighted and weighted heavily in my opinion. Some drops are worse than others and there needs to be some freedom for a judge to make a judgment call on how much a drop weighs in the over-all score. But, I think we need to collectively understand... a fall on the ice or a fall from a apparatus in gymnastics is more disruptive and therefore more damaging to said performance relative to a drop in a freestyle routine which contains significantly more risk of error. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Ian Dubman > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:31 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback > > > > I have no comment on the winner of the routines--I was not there. > I saw the > videos--UNBELIEVABLE PERFORMANCES. Both are remarkable. > I have this to say, drops are big, and if they are not right now in the > current judging system, they should be. > > Look at... > Martial arts and kata... You can't stumble in the midst of > executing a move > and win. > > Gymnastics and balance beam... You can't fall off the beam and win. > > Figure skating... Nope, falls not allowed here. > > Skateboarding... Nope. > > In sports where balance and physical abilities to maintain an > activity while > demonstrating that balance, you can not lose control (i.e., > stumble, fall, > drop, etc.). > > Footbag is one of those sports. > > Ian Dubman > > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:36:44 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA26128 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:36:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:39:20 -0700 Received: from 24.26.174.140 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:39:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.26.174.140] From: "Jason Buzby" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Promotion Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:39:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2002 20:39:20.0661 (UTC) FILETIME=[7ECF6850:01C247C0] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey list, I was skippin through the channles on tv the other day and came across a show called Project Detention. DC shoes is one of the sponsors. It is a show which is made up of segments(3-4 mins) of an action/alternative sport that where sent in to the show. I thought about it and said why not send in a segment on footbag... it would help the sport and be really awsome. I'm not in any position to do this though for the reason that i have no access to a camera and/or editing equipment. you can check out the show and the details that go with it and getting a segment on there at http://www.dcshoes.com/main.asp and click on project detention. I figured i would let the footbag world know about this and maybe someone that produces videos or something may want to check this out. the show airs on fox sports net and ex tv. Do what you will with this info also there is another show bluetorch which is another alt sport type show which i could see footbag on if someone wants to check that out and maybe contact them you can check that out at http://www.bluetorch.com . thats it for now. I love the sport and i am just tryin to help it out by gettin my ideas into the hands in which something may get done with them because I am in no position to do any of this unfortunately. thanks for you time, Jason Buzby From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:42:12 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA26364 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:42:12 -0700 From: "Uve Poom" Received: by data.zone.ee (Postfix, from userid 65534) id AE41D2A8103; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:50:32 +0300 (EEST) To: "Ian Dubman" Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Reply-To: uvepoom@footbag.ee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--=_8bf33416cf3c772c5479d37b7153cd61" Message-Id: <20020819165032.AE41D2A8103@data.zone.ee> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:50:32 +0300 (EEST) ----=_8bf33416cf3c772c5479d37b7153cd61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ian Dubman wrote... > In sports where balance and physical abilities to maintain an > activity while > demonstrating that balance, you can not lose control (i.e., > stumble, fall, > drop, etc.). > Footbag is one of those sports. Footbag is becoming one of those sports. Uve Poom Estonia/Denmark ----=_8bf33416cf3c772c5479d37b7153cd61-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 16:34:17 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA31430 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:34:17 -0700 Received: from footbaga1hc7od [216.232.193.67] by FootbagCanada.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A43E6B902F8; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:09:02 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Chard Cook" To: Subject: [freestyle] 15th Annual Vancouver Open August 24-25, 2002 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:10:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 1081 X-Originating-IP: [24.69.255.205] X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2002 20:27:48.0272 (UTC) FILETIME=[38763B00:01C2449A] Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org MODERATOR'S NOTE: If you are subscribed to the footbag list as well, you will get two copies of this message. Sorry for the cross-post. Newbie Moderator Technical Difficulties ;-) *********ATTENTION WE NEED MORE NETS*********** can anyone bring nets with them? please contact me asap. thanks:-) *********ATTENTION WE NEED MORE NETS*********** 15th Annual Vancouver Open ­ Jericho Beach Park East August 24-25, 2002 http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1021267082 Come One - Come All -- to the 15th Annual Vancouver Open! We will be holding Singles Net, Doubles Net, Golf and Freestyle competition. 4-Squares will be chalked all weekend and Consecutives will be offered for the newbies. If enough people show up we will have intermediate and/or novice divisions. NET/GOLF/FREESTYLE Entry Fees: $30 for Open/Intermediate with tournament shirt $20 for Open/Intermediate w/o shirt $5 for Novice only(includes KFA membership for one year) $15 for shirt only $10 for IFPA registration (optional see Chard) This is NOT an IFPA Sanctioned event. But we will be signing up anyone interested in joining the IFPA. The fee is $10 and is valid for one year. As an IFPA member, your results will be recorded from any IFPA sanctioned events you enter (such as Worlds, European Masters, US Open, etc.) and used to determine your worldwide ranking. More importantly, you're also supporting the IFPA towards its goals of making Footbag a more recognized and legitimate sport. If there is not enough registrants for Novice there will be net courts available for pick-up games. If there are enough registrants, it may be possible to run the Intermediate or Women's categories, in singles or doubles. If there are not enough, then welcome to Open! Registration will be held from approx. 7pm to 9pm at the Sunset Grill Friday eve (Yew St. & York in Kitsilano - directly south of Kits Beach up the hill). We'd like to register ALL or as many as possible that night. Restaurant on Friday August 23rd. Late registration will be held on site at Jericho Beach Park East from 8am to 9am on Saturday August 24th and Sunday August 25th. SCHEDULE OF EVENTS Friday August 23rd 5:00pm - until... Pick up net and shred at Kits Beach 7:00pm - 9:00pm Registration at the Sunset Grill Restaurant (Yew St. & York in Kitsilano - directly south of Kits Beach up the hill) Saturday August 24th 8 ­ 9am Late Registration at site (Jericho Beach Park East) 9 ­ 6pm Singles Net 12- 2pm Consecutives 2 - 3pm Freestyle routine 1st round 3 - ?pm Freestyle Shred 30 (and maybe Big Trick/Sick 3) Later Evening Social and potluck Sunday August 25th 8 ­ 9am Late Doubles Registration at site 9 ­ 3pm Doubles Net 1 ­ 6pm Golf 12- 2pm Consecutives 2 - 3pm Freestyle routine Final round 3 - ?pm Freestyle Shred 30 (and maybe Big Trick/Sick 3) 3-6pm Finals Matches/Awards (time approx.) ******* As always, the schedule is subject to change: contact us if you have questions. NOTE**Freestyle depends on number of people, bring your shred and a friend's shred too! SPECIAL MESSAGE FOR FREESTYLE Hey all!! You're hereby invited to come and shred yourself silly!! There'll be shred circles, but we're planning to run Routines (ranked judging), Shred 30, and maybe a Big Trick or Sick 3 contest depending on numbers of interested competitors and time available. So stand up and be counted!! We want your game here in Vancouver. Remember Worlds 2000? Nothing has changed, it's still as beautiful as ever!! Traditionally this has been a net event but the times, they are a changin'. There's some extremely talented local freestylers in the hood and they're coming into their own. However, they need inspiration and encouragement from the big boys/ girls of SHRED. So far, we expect most of the Victoria crew (Allan Haggett, Jeremy Kumbruch, Jubal Hume, Matt Emmings, Dylan Fry). I went to the island to play with these guys last month and they're on fire! Can't wait to see 'em again. If you're coming *please* let Leanne and I know. Come a day early and go to Molson Canadian's Snow Jam (Fri) featuring appearances by Pennywise, Unwritten Law, and Swollen Members. This two day event (Aug. 23 & 24) will host competitions in BMX, Snowboard, Skateboard, In-Line, and Freeski. Let's show 'em some shred too!! Perfect opportunity to promote the tourney AND your talent! Tickets are $20 CDN in advance at www.ticketmaster.ca and $30 CDN at the door. ------ Of course, net players, will have warm up games goin' on Friday at Kits Beach. Not to worry, there's lots of surface to shred at Kits too if you can't go to Snow Jam. ------ Freestyle info contact Chard Cook at the Canadian Footbag Alliance - chard@FootbagCanada.com or 604-736-0384 All other info contact Leanne Makcrow - queencrow@hotmail.com or 604-251-4021 OR http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1021267082 If you've never been to the Vancouver Open then you're in for a treat. The folks here rule! Hospitable as could be. Come see for yourself!! See ya soon! Always kickin', Chard Cook Freestyle Director DIRECTIONS please click on the inside of the following map (keep clicking to zoom in until you see cross streets) http://www.mapquest.com/maps/savedmaps.adp This map has kits beach, sunset grill, event site, nearby hostel The tournament takes place at the southeast section of Jericho Beach Park, the stretch of grass that borders upon 4th Avenue. ------------------- HOTELS/B&B/HOSTELS/CAR RENTAL We didn't get a big response for hotel accom. so you'll need to accomodate yourselves, however, I've made an effort to help you further by providing you with these quick links to find what you need. hotels http://www.vancouverplus.ca/feature/8640/vancouver.html b&b's http://www.tourismvancouver.com/cgi-bin/members_search.cgi hostels (for this site click preference - Vancouver All) car rentals/attractions/etc... For directions,questions,and RSVP your attendance please email queencrow@hotmail.com or call Leanne Makcrow at (604) 251-4021 Lookin' forward to it ;-> with much love ~The Queen~ ~~Leanne~~ Tournament Director From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 16:43:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA31744 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:43:50 -0700 From: "Ted Huff" Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id 5.1bd.b387c58 (18403); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1bd.b387c58.2a91e02f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:46:23 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org thanks Tina ! I'll look & read the comments at flipside, but I am completely certain that what I saw was a posting of 380 ADDS & no Drops during a routine that was completely in control and timed to it's music by Ryan, versus a fantastic performance by Vasek that was 316 Adds and 1 Drop , and not completely in control /in tune with the chosen music. My question is ................so when does 380 Adds and NO Drops count versus "judging" artistic and technical scoring ? If those ADDS & Drops don't count, then what is the basis for scoring Freestyle Footbag ??????!!!!! Too many in the crowd that watched this feel the same, let alone freestyle competitors that I talked with: the judges flawed in posting Vasek too high, and deciding before Ryan performed , and certainly afterward, that they couldn't and wouldn't give him as good or better of a score, except for 2 6.0's in artistic. Ryan earned a victory, but was "jobbed" by his so-called peers. I just hope that the IFPA, and The Czech Republic and it's players don't allow for this kind of slop to occur again, or why would anyone think they can get a fair scoring next year ? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 18:24:25 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA03145 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:24:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 28126 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2002 01:19:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Aug 2002 01:19:58 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "Ted Huff" , Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:13:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1bd.b387c58.2a91e02f@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted, debate the outcome... please. Present arguments for your point of view... please. I am glad to see you are interested and truly care about the freestyle results. But, you are also acting irresponsibly. You are suggesting that the judging system at worlds (as approved by the IFPA) and the judges themselves (as appointed by WFC staff) carried out their duties in a careless and unjust manner while overseen by the IFPA and the WFC freestyle staff. Two players in particular performed at tremendously high levels on Championship night and forced the judging panel to split hairs in order to figure who is 1st and who is 2nd place. So sorry it didn't turn out how you thought it should. Please, do not accuse the judges, the IFPA and WFC Freestyle staff of robbing you or anyone else without thoughtful review. So far, the only slop and unfair judgment made to the footbag world at large by a significant and contributing member of the world footbag championships, player or staff, has been made by yourself. It is disappointing. Eric Wulff co-Executive Producer Director of Freestyle World Footbag Championships - 2002 (415) 681-5729 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Ted Huff > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:46 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback > > > thanks Tina ! > I'll look & read the comments at flipside, but I am completely > certain that > what I saw was a posting of 380 ADDS & no Drops during a routine that was > completely in control and timed to it's music by Ryan, versus a > fantastic > performance by Vasek that was 316 Adds and 1 Drop , and not completely in > control /in tune with the chosen music. > > My question is ................so when does 380 Adds and NO Drops count > versus "judging" artistic and technical scoring ? If those ADDS & Drops > don't count, then what is the basis for scoring Freestyle Footbag > ??????!!!!! > Too many in the crowd that watched this feel the same, let alone > freestyle > competitors that I talked with: the judges flawed in posting > Vasek too high, > and deciding before Ryan performed , and certainly afterward, that they > couldn't and wouldn't give him as good or better of a score, except for 2 > 6.0's in artistic. > > Ryan earned a victory, but was "jobbed" by his so-called peers. I just > hope that the IFPA, and The Czech Republic and it's players don't > allow for > this kind of slop to occur again, or why would anyone think they > can get a > fair scoring next year ? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 20:11:59 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA15720 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:11:59 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:30:49 -0700 Received: from 216.27.144.67 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:30:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.27.144.67] From: "Stan Sagalovskiy" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:30:49 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2002 02:30:49.0759 (UTC) FILETIME=[98E462F0:01C247F1] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, The debate aside, I think the question that's being raised is if the new system of judging "better" than the old one. That question has been answered by many - it is different, there are good and bad points for both, but the new one is much easier to implement and, as experience shows, the simpler solution is usually the one that wins. My only concern with the new system is the way in which the judges are chosen. Footbag is a very close community, and it's probably impossible to find a player who doesn't prefer a certain style or player. I guess my point is that in iceskating and gymnastics the judges don't go out for beers with the players after the competition. Or maybe they do, I don't know. Is there a specific way in which judges are chosen under the new system? (I don't remember if this was already mentioned in the description of the system a few months back.) Should there be a test to qualify judges? Perhaps after being shown a routine have the potential judges check off certain moves that were performed, directions of spins, flyers, sets, combinations of moves that stood out, and so on. Just to show a little bit of skill in analyzing a routine for strengths and weakenesses. peace, stan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 22:21:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA23141 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:21:56 -0700 Message-Id: <200208200521.WAA23141@llic.net> Received: from [64.164.1.178] by web9603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:06:36 PDT Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:06:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Ahren Gehrman Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <1bd.b387c58.2a91e02f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dear Everybody, I really hate having to defend myself, especially since Kenny and Eric have already defended the judges decision so very eloquently. However, Mr. Huff has not let that slow his stream of slanderous statements directed at the judges, which I was one of. I think the time has come to speak not just for myself, but hopefully for the rest of those of us who were faced with a hard decision and stuck our necks on the chopping block in trade for sticking up for what we thought was right. Probably the most offensive comment Ted made was: "Ryan earned a victory, but was "jobbed" by his so-called peers." Ted, this comment makes me sick to my stomach. You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Do you even know any of us that were on the judging panel? I know I've never talked to you. I mean, I know what you look like. I think I saw you smoking cigarettes one day at worlds, but I've never talked to you. How dare you make a personal statement like that about people you don't know? And I say that it is a personal statement because it can't be proffesional. You already told us you don't know freestyle. Let me also say that I've known Ryan for years and consider him a friend. My decision that night had absolutely nothing to do with my relationship to any of the competetors. In all honesty, if I would have had a bias I would have voted for Ryan. Now somebody I don't know telling me I stabbed a friend in the back pisses me off to absolutely no end. You don't have the right or reason to say anything like that to any of us. O.k. let me get on with what I should really be talking about, even though I could go off on Ted for much longer. Let's go over the technical card first. I'm not even going to go into great detail here, you are just going to have to take my word for it. Why? Well, every single trick that both Ryan and Vasek hit that night on stage, I've done! In fact, and I say this not to brag but just for the sake of argument, I've done tricks that neither Vasek nor Ryan have hit, either on or off stage. Of course they have done stuff that I can't do as well, I'm just wondering, who better to judge them than somebody on their level? Now I can say as a proffesional that Vasek's routine was absolutely superior technically. The tricks were harder, the links were harder, he was much less one sided than Ryan, and his variety was astounding. Ryan filled his routine with a lot of filler, and towards the end repeated himself too much. Most of his extra adds were easier 3's and even a lot of extra 2 adds. Now comes the real debate. Who's routine was superior artistically? Well that's not really that hard, seeing as the judging system we used was subjective. It just depends on what kind of "art" you like. Some people like Paul Klee. Some people like Dali. Some people prefer Degas, Cezanne, or Matisse. You can't tell me what I like to look at or how to look at it. Sure, Ryan's routine was perfectly on the music, but that is only ONE aspect of the artistry of a footbag routine. Vasek went BIG, which is in itself an artistic statement, and one which I liked. The moves he picked to perform and the way he linked them impressed me just as much as Ryan hitting his moves on cue. This judging system was not meant to mimic the results of the old one, and I had that in mind when I made my choice. I went with what I liked to see, not with what would have won during previous years just to make the public happy. Other people liked Ryan's artistry better, and voted that way. That's perfectly fine. I can even understand where they are coming from, it's just not my cup of tea. I don't like Earl Grey. I'm more of a green tea type of guy. Both Vasek's and Ryan's routines were inspiring. I stood up and cheered and my heart was pounding. I've never seen anything like it in my life. Ryan's was especially emotional. That was his best routine ever. Before the contest I told Ryan that I was rooting for him, and I was. I really was. If you've never stepped in to a circle and played at the level we play at, then no, you are not a better judge than any of us. I'm sorry if you don't understand what freestyle is, and what it means to us. To me it means much more than any blue ribbon. Torch --- Ted Huff wrote: > thanks Tina ! > I'll look & read the comments at flipside, but I am > completely certain that > what I saw was a posting of 380 ADDS & no Drops > during a routine that was > completely in control and timed to it's music by > Ryan, versus a fantastic > performance by Vasek that was 316 Adds and 1 Drop , > and not completely in > control /in tune with the chosen music. > > My question is ................so when does 380 > Adds and NO Drops count > versus "judging" artistic and technical scoring ? > If those ADDS & Drops > don't count, then what is the basis for scoring > Freestyle Footbag ??????!!!!! > Too many in the crowd that watched this feel the > same, let alone freestyle > competitors that I talked with: the judges flawed > in posting Vasek too high, > and deciding before Ryan performed , and certainly > afterward, that they > couldn't and wouldn't give him as good or better of > a score, except for 2 > 6.0's in artistic. > > Ryan earned a victory, but was "jobbed" by his > so-called peers. I just > hope that the IFPA, and The Czech Republic and it's > players don't allow for > this kind of slop to occur again, or why would > anyone think they can get a > fair scoring next year ? > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 23:33:16 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA26477 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:33:16 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:23:38 -0700 Received: from 68.20.209.30 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:23:37 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.20.209.30] From: "Ian Dubman" To: torchbap@yahoo.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:23:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2002 06:23:38.0107 (UTC) FILETIME=[1EAD24B0:01C24812] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well spoken Ahren, I am glad to see a judge say something. You accounted for everything about the routines in a general, but very thorough, manner. But, not trying to chide at all, you did not mention the drop. How important is a dropless routine to you? I am curious (with you being a judge and all) what your stance is on this as well. If you care not to answer, please do not. I am not trying to anger anyone, I am just VERY intrigued by this whole thing. I think going big is great (it makes it more fun to watch, as you said), but drops take away a lot of the essence. Furthermore (more for Eric), what would constitute a significant or insignificant drop? Like is dropping on a more difficult move worse in your eyes? Or the simple drop? Personally, I think both are pretty bad. Ian Dubman From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 00:38:55 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA28413 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:38:55 -0700 Received: from pd5mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.233]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1400411OHJ5D@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:56:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1400MH9OHIZ4@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:56:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-70-216-74.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.216.74]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1400FJKOHI7I@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:56:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:55:27 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback X-Sender: akeh@shawmail To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020819222134.027c3290@shawmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Everyone, This is a note as your list Moderator: Mr. Huff isn't even on the freestyle list. He sent his original post to the freestyle list, and I let it go through because he is subscribed to the other lists and because I assumed he would follow my request for his subscription. He has not done this, so I must request that any and all public responses to Ted's comment's cease and desist. I will not allow him to post to this list again without being subscribed(yes, this is what I *should* have done in the first place). So, until such a time that he can receive and answer responses, I think it is only fair that we suspend further public discussion about his opinions. I have directed him to the archives ( http://list.footbag.org/majordomo/index/freestyle ) so at very least he can read what people have said to date if he so desires. I apologize for confusing the matter. Of course discussion of the general subject at hand is encouraged, just not the specific part regarding Ted Huff's comments about the judges. Jan is right in that we should avoid making this personal. It is unfortunate that Ted's voice possibly carried what many mis-guided people were thinking so the issue is a necessary discussion; not in questioning Judge integrity, but simply in the context of making the whole process completely transparent. Josh P. bring's up valid question's that should be, and *will* be(courtesy of your IFPA), a matter of public record in detailing how Judges are chosen and what constitutes qualification as a judge. This is not to say that the process isn't already transparent, but it does need further clarification and presentation. These are *exactly* the kinds of things that the IFPA is and will be administering, but that is another topic :-) Thanks for your understanding. Allan H. For the record: I was a judge for the preliminary round, on Data Entry for Semi's and was there for Final's. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 00:44:33 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA28580 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:44:33 -0700 Received: from 1sgpz01 (syr-66-24-59-181.twcny.rr.com [66.24.59.181]) by mailout6.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/RoadRunner 1.20) with SMTP id g7K7dLC29626 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 03:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000d01c2481d$35410420$b53b1842@twcny.rr.com> From: "Tyler Linscot" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 03:42:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I don't think Ryan's routine was as on to the music as say Yacine merzouk's 2001 performance. www.footbag.org/gallery/show/yacine-routine-2001 Yes, Ryan's routine did fit the moods of the music , but he definatly wasn't on the beat. Also, I think I noticed what used to be called a "body slop" after his squating stall 1/3 of the video through. I thought that used to be worth half a drop. And, yes drops are big. But to bring up an earlier analogy, if you fall in the olympics on the ice, and then proceed to do 3 triplle axels, while the leading compeditor does 2 double axels and a bunch of sinlges, you got a good shot at gold. I agree with the judges decision. It says to me footbag should be about going big, and hitting moves the other shreders aren't. Vasek did that. He deserves the crown. Ty From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 10:11:00 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA27696 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:11:00 -0700 Received: from I (brat.footbag.org [209.125.90.60]) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id KAA27693 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:10:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@209.125.90.2 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000d01c2481d$35410420$b53b1842@twcny.rr.com> References: <000d01c2481d$35410420$b53b1842@twcny.rr.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:11:00 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The judges were perfectly capable. The new system worked smooth as silk. Especially once we got the software and scoring algorithms sorted out. Our biggest failure was in not ironing out a few details before the event. I am partially to blame for that but I don't care who's to blame. The system worked *well* at the end. The results were within reason. There is no disputing that. No system (not even the "tried and true" formula-based system) would have necessarily distinguished between Ryan's routine and Vasek's routine this year to everyone's satisfaction. It's impossible to define *any* system that can perfectly rank only two players. Any form of judging for any artistic sport can only work in the aggregate. This discussion of whether or not the system "worked" is moot. Nobody disputes the *other* results, do they? Ryan v. Vasek is a red herring though obviously brings up some interesting issues in both systems. The person robbed here is Vasek. I personally would have judged Ryan's routine as the winning routine. But I can *easily* see how Vasek could have been considered the winner, too. There is simply no point in debating this. What we all *should* be saying is, "Oh my god! Who'd have thought the level of play in freestyle footbag could continue to get better, year after year? Isn't this incredible? These routines may not have been the best we will ever see, but they shed light on the vision we all have for Olympic freestyle footbag. This is the direction we want to go! Thank you, Vasek and Ryan, for rising to this new level and helping re-define the competitive sport!" Oh, and "If all routines are performed at this and increasing levels year after year, we'll need a judging system that can distinguish between multiple players at this level of play. Perhaps the only way is to copy the Olympic figure skating system (which is the closest established sport to ours) and learn from their experience, defining mandatory deductions and required components, but otherwise leaving the interpretation of which routine is better to a panel of experts." Notice that I didn't say, "...and choose those experts carefully". Because (a) that's obvious, and (b) this is *NOT* an area where we failed. Don't attack the judges, don't attack the system, don't attack the process we used, and don't attack the players. This year everything came together and we reached a new high in our sport's development. Everything came into alignment. Things are changing. I see serious momentum and interest (and engagement) on the part of players and competitors, as well as the audience. This is the beginning of the next phase. Change is good. Discussion is also good. Let's keep discussing. But *NOT* in the context of anything this year being a failure. This was the best year *EVER* in freestyle footbag competition. Steve From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 10:43:46 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29090 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:43:46 -0700 From: "Ted Huff" Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.62.24742b16 (2168) for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <62.24742b16.2a939d1e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:24:46 EDT Subject: [freestyle] Apology To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dear 2002 IFPA World Championships committee, and freestyle judges, Please accept my apology for remarks I made this past week regarding the scoring of the freestyle finals. It was unfair of me , as a fan, to speak up regarding a system I did not understand. I do understand that the system does take many things into consideration, and to be a judge for and of that system requires a keen awareness of what is important in tournament freestyle. An awareness that I do not have as a fan, and sponsor, nor will I. The judges had a tremendous responsibility, and , as I better understand now via feedback from some of the best, did an admirable job, and I hope that I may now congratulate them for their efforts in behalf of the sport I accept the fact that I made a mistake in questioning the fairness of that system, and do, again, congratulate Vasek Klouda as the winner of the Worlds Freestyle Open Singles competition. Yet, I still believe that I saw a defending champion defend his title. Both performances were unbelievable, and will stand out as the best that I, and many others, have ever seen. In the future, I will keep my personal thoughts regarding scoring to myself. I do salute all the freestyle competitors and judges for a great 2002 World Championships. Further to this, the World Championships were very inspiring , regarding the quality of play, and where the sport is headed, especially by the IFPA leadership. I certainly do respect that effort, and look forward to following their leadership in the sport's future. I look forward to the 2003 Championships in Prague. Meanwhile, I am renewed in my interest in promoting a major tournament in Portland, Oregon, the home of the game and sport. I will be coordinating this very soon with John "Mr. Hacky Sack" Stalberger,and the IFPA, amongst others, and making an announcement within the next month. I look forward to raising sponsorships that benefit the individual players in a major way. Best regards, humbly, to The Big Add Posse, and all shredders worldwide, Ted Huff From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 10:44:28 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29148 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:44:28 -0700 Message-Id: <200208201744.KAA29148@llic.net> Received: from [65.92.247.134] by web11607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:32:38 PDT Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:32:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Ripwalk video defect To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org To whom it may concern, If you bought "Where the Ripwalk Ends" at the World Footbag Championships, you may have received a defective copy. I sincerely apologize for this. Please see the following page for instructions on obtaining a replacement. http://www.flipsider.com/ripwalk/temp_batch.htm The most common defect is a scrambled image in the middle of Sunil's section. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks, Ellis Piltz Flipsider From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 10:48:23 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA29312 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:48:23 -0700 Received: from laxerone@netscape.net by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.9.) id z.5e.3ee8fe5 (16227); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.net (mow-m16.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.132]) by air-in02.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILININ23-0820072240; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:22:40 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:20:18 -0400 From: "Jan Zimmermann" To: ewulff@footbag.org ("Eric Wulff"), freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Message-ID: <29DA7B73.12BB4BE1.0078AB1E@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by llic.net id EAA00943 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org "Eric Wulff" wrote: >I am a bit surprised at your review of the artistic impression of Ryan and >Vasek. Their performances brought tears to peoples eyes, goose bumps to >many, and everyone to their feet. It was not the technical aspects that >brought forth such emotional reactions. I am a person who holds >presentation high and it is my opinion that Ryan Mulroney presented... >artistically... perhaps the greatest routine in freestyle history. He hit >things on the beat in so many instances it is awe inspiring. When the music >changed pace... he changed pace.... Sorry that I have to use names in my arguments, I do not in any way want to smaller the achievemtns of any of the finalists or the two top contestants. The two routines probably were the best freestyle routines ever (I have not seen all, and unfortunately were only able to see the ryan's and vaseks routines once, so all I'm saying stems from my first impression). The issue I want to bring up in this discussion, is: were the two routines presented the top notch we will see in footbag freestyle presentational wise? With scores as they stand and stood in the last years we are encouraging players to mimic what is most successfull, i.e. having very fast pased routines with a lot of contacts and a lot of adds. Look at the great similarity of vaseks and ryans routines, you can see that vasek orients himself at ryans style of presenting footbag freestyle on a stage. Seriously, would any freestyler today who wants to stand a chance of winning worlds DARE to add showy elements in their routines like I heard Alex Zerbe did? Yes, both Ryans and Vaseks routines were well choreaographed to music, changed pace etc., but that is only part of what defines presentation in my book. There's breaks or freezes (like in breakdance), interaction with the audience, crowd pleasers, and a bunch of other stuff people could come up with to make their routine more interesting to a non skilled audience. All I'm arguing against is the near perfect presentation scoring of the top two routines because it gives all the aspiring players the impression that this is the type of routine you have to present in order to win. In my book, ryan and vasek have maybe fullfilled 2/3 of what I would judge a perfectly presented freestyle routine. Both would have the skill to easily fullfill the other 1/3 (I believe) but Ryan (I think) does not because it is not his style (which I can respect) and vasek does not because ryan does not. Possibly vasek also doesn't do it because he fears that he has to have as many contacts and tricks as ryan in order to match him technically. >All are well appreciated if done to >perfection. 50 contacts and 150 adds will get just as much respect, in my >book... artistically, when done well as will 130 contacts and 400 adds. And this I do not quite believe (I believe in your book, Eric, they might count the same, but I don't think any player could have counted on the judges seeing it the same way, when planning their routine). What I am saying is that players like toby robinson (sorry for using names again) and his last years routine, alex zerbe, peter irish, lon smith or ole schnack also fullfill about 2/3 of what is required of a well presented freestyle routine. they use show effects, have costumes (why do you think ice scaters wear outfits?), have a theme to their routine and other elements. What some of them lack is maybe the technical ability to perform as fast and on beat as ryan, but that is why most of them get considereably lower technical scores. I do not see however why they get (in my eye) punished (so much) for lacking (or not having as much) technical skills, in their presentation scores too, although they apply as many elements of presentation, only a different kind. When I saw ryan live the first time last year I thought the only way to beat him would be to present a superior show mixed with almost equal technical merrit. I have been prooven wrong by vasek who beat ryan not in presentation but in technical merrit. This shows that the advancement of footbag freestyle routines is still focused on the technical aspect although in my eye the developement of presentational skill has stagnated or even reversed in the last years. Still 95% of freestylers rather go out on stage and shred for 2 minutes to some music that somehow fits they're style of play than make up a choreographed routine with show elements, using tricks they can hit solidly. Nobody can be bothered because the shred type is so more successfull. I'm not talking about the top freestylers but of all the new generation footbaggers. We're showing them that in order to win you have to "shred hard" and not "present hard" and I just believe we have to balance the two out again. If yo! u want to perform a freestyle routine you should work on your presentational skills as much as on your technical skills, because freestyle routines is, after all, a spectator sports like figure skating, dancing, or whatnot. OK, I'm exagerating a bit to get my point across... It just struck me as strange that the presentation scores of the final contestants almost exactly matched their technical score which kind of shows me that the two scores are not as independant of eachother as they maybe should be. Jan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 11:05:35 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA30151 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:05:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 18552 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2002 02:12:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Aug 2002 02:12:49 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "freestyle@footbag. Org" Subject: [freestyle] WFC - Freestyle - Open Singles - 1st VS 2nd Place Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:06:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C247B3.8FCD26E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Everyone, there has been more than average controversy over the final results for 1st and 2nd place in Open Singles Freestyle at the WFC - 2002. I have checked into the basis for the judges ranked finishes and scores and here is the detail behind what I have found. First, all finalists performed greatly and entertained beautifully. 2 players in particular, Ryan Mulroney and Vasek Klouda, took freestyle routines to a new level in what has to be known as the greatest fight for 1st place in the history of the World Footbag Championships of Freestyle. The judges scores reflected the performance of the players... their placement was accurate and fair. I now COMPLETELY understand that the judges did an EXCELLENT job. There is no way to clearly and absolutely score first place vs second without debating it may have gone a different way. It was that close. Many feel Ryan won because he nailed a no drop routine with tremendous choreography. Vasek's advantage on the technical side requires an educated and impartial viewer in order to understand. The difference between spinning in both directions and hitting more variety of harder moves in combination is not as obvious as nailing choreography and keeping the bag off the ground (Vasek had 1 drop to Ryan's Zero). If you care to check it out I've attached a spreadsheet with some details. Also, please take the time to view the routines once again at flipsider.com. http://flipsider.com/docs/newspages/worlds_videos.htm I've analyzed the routines of both players move for move focusing on 4 ad and 5 ad moves. Why focus on 4 and 5 add moves? Mainly for 2 reasons... 1. Because Ellis has a breakdown on his website of guiltless moves... so that's covered there. 2. Also, I could breakdown presentation aspects but I think most would agree that Ryan performed exceptionally well in presentation so there is little that need be brought to light in this respect. Vasek did very well there also... although arguably not as well as Ryan. Also, please see that ranking scores reflect this. It's the technical parts that are hardest to see and here is what I found. Keep in mind, it is not the add counts so much as the variety that carry weight and this is also reflected by the judges rankings. - Vasek had 28 4 add moves - Ryan had 26 Perhaps not a big deal. - Vasek had 17 unique 4's - Ryan had 10. Bigger deal? Yes - Vasek had 5 unique 5's to Ryan's 2. Fairly significant there... plus some were hit in combination were Ryan's 5's were isolated between 2 or 3 add moves. - Vasek had combos of 4 adds or more in contact length of 2, 3, *7*, and 3 - Ryan had combos of 4 adds or more in contact length of 5, 2, 2, 3 - 4 add moves or higher hit by Vasek and not Ryan... pix same side butter - rt, blizzard - lft, whirling swirl - lft, spin butter - rt, spin butter - lft, mobius, torque, ducking osis, scorpion tale, barfly, spin osis - lft, pix drifter. Vasek also did several spins on his left side. Ryan did full spins on his right side but not on his left. - 4 add moves or higher hit by Ryan and not Vasek... p-whirl lft, blur lft Technically Vasek had harder and longer harder combos AND Vasek's routine built in difficulty with his last 15 moves being his hardest moves and combos of the routine. Ryan's hardest combo was his 16th to 20th move of the routine. Now, I want to be clear personally. This critique may seem heavily in favor of Vasek. However, this is because Ryan's strengths were missed by few and Vasek's by many. The controversy, if there is any, so far revolves only around the question... how could have Vasek won? It is my job to investigate this and I have. So now I report to you how the judges rank score reflect the players performance relative to one another. If I were a judge I would still pick Ryan the winner. Why? In my expert opinion he just about swept the presentation card and... while Vasek just about swept the technical card... if either player gained an advantage, I feel it is Ryan because I think his presentation victory was of a margin SLIGHTLY higher than that of Vasek's technical victory. AND... I feel the one drop weighed heavily enough to turn the tide if I had doubt. However, I also realize that it was ABSOLUTELY... DEFINITELY close enough to go either way. The judges scoring reflects EXACTLY that in 6 1st place votes for Vasek (4 in artistic impression) and 4 1st place votes for Ryan (3 in technical merit). Neither player had anything less than 1st or 2nd place rank finishes base on scores which were very close. This is my final analysis and as Director of Freestyle as of now I consider the matter closed to official review. However, feel free to continue the debate... :-). Again, I only ask that the judges and most of all... the players be respected. No matter what the outcome of this great battle... we were all treated to Footbag Freestyle's best of all time. What more could we ask for? Eric Wulff co-Executive Producer Director of Freestyle World Footbag Championships - 2002 (415) 681-5729 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C247B3.8FCD26E0-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 12:21:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA00808 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:21:50 -0700 Received: from wks4lan (pm727-20.dialip.mich.net [35.12.19.122]) by pilot23.cl.msu.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7KJGqE22820 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:16:52 -0400 From: "Adam Keith" To: Subject: RE: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:19:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <29DA7B73.12BB4BE1.0078AB1E@netscape.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I agree with you that presentation in most routines definitely in the back seat compared to the technical aspect. The problem of course is that a routine by nature is meant to be a measure of performance, i.e. by judging routine we are judging who is the best footbag performer. Whereas a shred competition is based on judging technical ability, i.e. who is the best shredder. Personally I feel routines do a poor job of deciding who is the best footbagger, so I think in an event such as the world championships the shred competition should be pushed more, because that's what a "world championship" impiles, figuring out who is the best in the world. I feel if we continue to push routines than footbag will be thought of as more of a performance art (like theater) than a sport. Because of this I feel that the judges somewhat overlook the true presentation side, and instead mostly take into consideration the technical side of the game for both the technical and the presentation scores. Personally I feel that this is wrong. The presentation score should be based on the ideas set forth in the old presentation card, which means equal weight for each of the following: Music & movement, Floor planes & travel, General form & confidence, Distribution & linking, and Personality & originality. Of these it seems that the judges really only keep talking about music & movement and distribution & linking. Which is why the presentation score probably should have been lower, nobody really did a superb job with all five of these. Another real problem from a competitors standpoint is I did not know what the judges were going to consider heavily. With the old system, if I dropped, I knew .25 points were coming off my score. With the new system I did not know if taking an incresed risk would be worthwhile compared to the risk of dropping. We had no frame of reference, and I don't believe this kind of thing was really that consistent between the judges either. Would upping a combo from a 4>4 to a 5>5 be worth the same as one less drop? Would throwing in 6 unusuals instead of 3 earned me any more points? Would throwing an extra unique unusual be worth as much as throwing in an extra unique 5 add? All of these questions need to be answerable not only by the judges, but by the competitors as well. Another thing was the late change in systems. Ryan probably had his routine figured to fill most of the add card, when the system changed everybody then lowered his score because he had fewer uniques than Vasek. Also Ryan had much more floor planes & travel, and this was probably mostly was ignored without the presentation card there. I blame these problems on the lateness of being informed about the new system. All in all, I think that the judging was consistent from player to player, but nobody really knew what they were looking for. This needs to be clearer in the future, which means either the old system, another new system, or being better informed next time. Adam Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Jan Zimmermann > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 7:20 AM > To: "Eric Wulff"; freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback > > > "Eric Wulff" wrote: > > >I am a bit surprised at your review of the artistic impression > of Ryan and > >Vasek. Their performances brought tears to peoples eyes, goose bumps to > >many, and everyone to their feet. It was not the technical aspects that > >brought forth such emotional reactions. I am a person who holds > >presentation high and it is my opinion that Ryan Mulroney presented... > >artistically... perhaps the greatest routine in freestyle > history. He hit > >things on the beat in so many instances it is awe inspiring. > When the music > >changed pace... he changed pace.... > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 12:52:49 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA02470 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:52:49 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:50:25 -0700 Received: from 63.60.196.114 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:50:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.60.196.114] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:50:24 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2002 12:50:25.0070 (UTC) FILETIME=[271AACE0:01C24848] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, It's good to here what a Judge has to say. I think Vasek thoughly deserved to win. Everyone knew how the judging system was going to work before the comp (well I did and since I live in Tasmania, Australia, I'll assume that the competitors, especially Ryan and Vasek, did too). It seemed to me that Ryan's routine was one that would probably have won on the old system but was not so good when judged under the new. That isn't the new system's fault, it's Ryan's (Sorry Ryan). Vasek might not have won on the old but he did on the new. His routine was better suited to it. If that's on purpose then he certainly deserved to win. I'm sure most people would agree that the sytem could do with some improvments, but that's like virtually everything. The rules were the same for everybody. We should also remember that judges can make a questionable decision (not a mistake but maybe a weird or strange choice). The person who "Should" have won doesn't always. I don't think it's a problem, in anything subjective you are bound to have differences of opinion and the only way to get rid of that would be to get rid of the artistic element and simply go on a score/adds based system. I believe freestyle footbaggers are essentially perfomers and should be judged as performers! Jeremy O'Wheel P.S. Would there still be this debate if Ryan had have won? Perhaps a lot of us are either very conservative or Ryan 'Should' have won. I guess we'll never really know. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 17:08:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12313 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:08:48 -0700 Received: from [207.160.174.20] (HELO crtntx1-ar9-4-62-001-182.crtntx1.dsl-verizon.net) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 1544115 for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:54:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:06:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: "Derrick Fogle" To: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4913F8AC-B478-11D6-B797-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have reviewed the videos available on flipsider. I have also read all the myriad of analysis, and who was awarded first place is little more than a sign of our times. Technical ability reigns supreme. Isn't this what BAP has been all about? If this same scenario had played out 10 years ago, Ryan would have won, because drops was the single biggest concern of the time. Today, Vasek won because stringing together more different higher-add moves is the biggest concern. I have absolutely no qualms about the judging system, or the quality of the judges. If I had been there, I would have most likely been one of those judges - a competitively retired (but still kicking) freestlyer with a great deal of history and experience in freestyle competition and judging. Now, in a way, I'm glad I wasn't there, wasn't forced to make a ridiculous decision. I say ridiculous, because having to say only one of those two performances was a winner is crazy. Nuts. Insane. Once my jaw has hit the floor several times, I don't bother to measure and see which impact made a bigger dent. The 'subjective' system that was used allows the judges to evaluate and score performances against the framework of today's ideas about what is best. We don't have to adjust category caps or weight, alter scoring formulas, or anything like that to get a scoring system that works for *today's* freestyle. I think that is awesome. Nobody should be surprised that a technically superior performance was ranked above a presentationally superior performance when judges are given the freedom to evaluate those performances by today's standards. It's not just the way it is, it's the way it should be, too! Both the judges, and the judging system, did an excellent job. It's just that there were two incredible performances, each one slightly stronger in one or the other of the two primary facets of what we measure, that brought this whole thing up. In the end, you might as well have tossed a coin to decide the winner. They were both awesome. Hopefully, both Ryan and Vasek can see that they do what they do, the judges do what they do, and in the long run the only thing that really matters is that they are both doing something that they love to do, whether or not they win. I've already felt the first winds of change; of the freestyle community's progression beyond fascination of technical capability only. With a number of BAP members coming out and saying Ryan 'should' have won - not on technical merit, but on strength of presentation - gives that wind of change enough strength to start rattling leaves and bending blades of grass. Prepare yourself for post-BAP era freestyle. Freestyle is *so* much more than just hard moves. Freestyle is *so* much more than just drops. Freestyle is *so* much more than just kicking to the beat of the music. Freestyle is *all* these things together, and much, much more. Every facet of freestyle is difficult in it's own right. None should be seen as less important. Now that we have a judging system that keeps itself up-to-date without grey-haired dorks like me having to vote on rule changes for some overly complex scoring system, we can decide what is important and have it *be* important - at the very next competition. -Derrick "funky chicken" Fogle From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 17:09:33 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12334 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:09:33 -0700 Received: from patch (lns03v-12-9.w.club-internet.fr [212.194.47.9]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DBC516AB for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:25:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004301c24887$9b5eeeb0$9020c2d4@patch> From: "Maxime Boucoiran" To: References: <200208182226.PAA03301@llic.net> Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:24:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Kenny Shultz wrote: > Now on the other side of the argument, Vasek's juggle > series was very short and kind of shaky. Ryan's juggling was much better. > Ryan's flyers were much better than Vasek who was very uncomfortable with his > flyers. Having seen the vids I can only say how true this is. But as someone pointed out, Vasek seemed to be doing his juggling routine because it is a prerequisite in any finals routine (ok it isn't I know). Honestly, I think juggling has nothing to do in a routine unless it involves both feet and/or dexes. I would say the same for the good ol' mid run "head stall", and the inevitable flying clippers (allthough E.Wulff, Ryan and others blend them pretty nicely in a run). As I understand these are all remnants of the old scoring system, of which I know little. My question is this: Is it possible to score top presentation points with the new system without hitting any: a) flyers b) unusual surface delays c) juggling Later all, Max From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 17:11:26 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12379 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:11:26 -0700 Received: from mattl6cueqyx7t ([12.217.240.36]) by sccmmhc01.mchsi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020820212340.IMSX23220.sccmmhc01.mchsi.com@mattl6cueqyx7t> for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:23:40 +0000 Message-ID: <002201c24890$265b8de0$9fe9b00a@mattl6cueqyx7t> From: "Matt Mueller" To: References: <62.24742b16.2a939d1e@aol.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Apology Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:25:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok now leave him alone. Im sure many people were thinkin exactly what ted said in his original message. But he was the only one brave enough to speak his mind (however rudely done) and knew he would get flamed for it. How could one (who wanted ryan to win)not come to the conclusion that the judges were biased. A new player that is very good comes to world to challenge a title. A new judging system is being used. Im certainly not saying they were, just that i understand these peoples frustration ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Huff" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: [freestyle] Apology > Dear 2002 IFPA World Championships committee, and freestyle judges, > > Please accept my apology for remarks I made this past week regarding the > scoring of the freestyle finals. It was unfair of me , as a fan, to speak up > regarding a system I did not understand. I do understand that the system > does take many things into consideration, and to be a judge for and of that > system requires a keen awareness of what is important in tournament > freestyle. An awareness that I do not have as a fan, and sponsor, nor will > I. The judges had a tremendous responsibility, and , as I better understand > now via feedback from some of the best, did an admirable job, and I hope that > I may now congratulate them for their efforts in behalf of the sport > > I accept the fact that I made a mistake in questioning the fairness of that > system, and do, again, congratulate Vasek Klouda as the winner of the Worlds > Freestyle Open Singles competition. Yet, I still believe that I saw a > defending champion defend his title. Both performances were unbelievable, > and will stand out as the best that I, and many others, have ever seen. > > In the future, I will keep my personal thoughts regarding scoring to myself. > I do salute all the freestyle competitors and judges for a great 2002 World > Championships. Further to this, the World Championships were very inspiring > , regarding the quality of play, and where the sport is headed, especially by > the IFPA leadership. I certainly do respect that effort, and look forward to > following their leadership in the sport's future. I look forward to the > 2003 Championships in Prague. > > Meanwhile, I am renewed in my interest in promoting a major tournament in > Portland, Oregon, the home of the game and sport. I will be coordinating > this very soon with John "Mr. Hacky Sack" Stalberger,and the IFPA, amongst > others, and making an announcement within the next month. I look forward to > raising sponsorships that benefit the individual players in a major way. > > Best regards, humbly, to The Big Add Posse, and all shredders worldwide, > Ted Huff > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 17:11:54 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12399 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:11:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 8595 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2002 21:01:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Aug 2002 21:01:40 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "Ian Dubman" , Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:55:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Ian... > Furthermore (more for Eric), what would constitute a significant or > insignificant drop? Like is dropping on a more difficult move > worse in your > eyes? Good question. I don't think there is such a thing as an insignificant drop. If I said it that way, I don't think I did... but I may have, than I mis-represented. All drops are significant... but some are more significant than others. Some drops are flailing attempts at a save that shanks into the audience with no chance to recover the bag. Ouch! :-) Some drops are almost hard to notice... for instance when someone tries to pick up the bag by rolling it up onto their foot... but misses. A classic drop counters miss. Some drops are recovered quickly and right on beat immediately back into rhythm. Some take a period of time for the kicker to find the rhythm of the routine again. A drop on a hard or easy trick has little effect on how it effects the score subjectively. Objectively, a drop will always effect a score by the same formula... usually it counts as a zero add trick and therefore lowers the add ratio, there is lost time to execute moves and therefore lost adds and simply... lost moves. Vasek's drop was what I would consider a typical or average drop. Significant? Absolutely. Just a few of the very best routine players... the masters of routines... drops come on the easiest moves and are hard to explain. They *seem* to be somewhat random. Perhaps, when a player has a lapse of focus... perhaps he or she is too relaxed in that particular moment or thinking of the next challenging move instead of the simple one at hand. That's what happened to Vasek I think. > Or the simple drop? > Personally, I think both are pretty bad. I agree. All drops are pretty bad. Thanks for bringing this up for clarification. Eric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 17:13:34 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12509 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:13:34 -0700 Received: (qmail 20543 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2002 22:19:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Aug 2002 22:19:43 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "freestyle@footbag. Org" Subject: [freestyle] WFC - Freestyle - Open Singles - 1st VS 2nd Place Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:13:38 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Everyone, there has been more than average controversy over the final results for 1st and 2nd place in Open Singles Freestyle at the WFC - 2002. I have checked into the basis for the judges ranked finishes and scores and here is some detail behind what I have found. First, all finalists performed greatly and entertained beautifully. 2 players in particular, Ryan Mulroney and Vasek Klouda, took freestyle routine performance to a new level in what is now known as the greatest fight for 1st place in the history of the World Footbag Championships of Freestyle. The judges scores reflected the performance of the players... their placement was accurate and fair. I now COMPLETELY understand that the judges did an EXCELLENT job. There is no way to clearly and absolutely score first place vs second without debating it may have gone a different way. It was that close. Many feel Ryan won because he nailed a no drop routine with tremendous choreography. Vasek's advantage on the technical side requires an educated and impartial viewer in order to understand. The difference between spinning in both directions and hitting more variety of harder moves in combination is not as obvious, when players are at this level, as nailing choreography and keeping the bag off the ground (Vasek had 1 drop to Ryan's Zero). If you care to check it out some numbers, I've copied some info from a spreadsheet below. Please excuse some funky alignment which, if occurs, may be due to your e-mail application. Also, please take the time to view the routines once again at flipsider.com. http://flipsider.com/docs/newspages/worlds_videos.htm I've analyzed the routines of both players move for move focusing on 4 ad and 5 ad moves. Why focus on 4 and 5 add moves? Mainly for 2 reasons... 1. Because Ellis has a breakdown on his website of guiltless moves... so that's covered there. 2. Also, I could breakdown presentation aspects but I think most would agree that Ryan performed exceptionally well in presentation so there is little that need be brought to light in this respect. Vasek did very well there also... although arguably not as well as Ryan. Also, understand that the judges ranking scores reflect this. It is the technical parts that are hardest to see. Keep in mind, it is not the add counts so much as the variety that carry the most weight. This is also reflected by the judges rankings. - Vasek had 28 4 add moves - Ryan had 26 Perhaps not a big deal. - Vasek had 17 unique 4's - Ryan had 10. Bigger deal? Yes - Vasek had 5 unique 5's to Ryan's 2. Fairly significant there... plus some were hit in combination were Ryan's 5's were isolated between 2 or 3 add moves. - Vasek had combos of 4 adds or more in contact length of 2, 3, *7*, and 3 - Ryan had combos of 4 adds or more in contact length of 5, 2, 2, 3 - 4 add moves or higher hit by Vasek and not Ryan... pix same side butter - rt, blizzard - lft, whirling swirl - lft, spin butter - rt, spin butter - lft, mobius, torque, ducking osis, scorpion tale, barfly, spin osis - lft, pix drifter. - Vasek also did several spins on his left side. Ryan did full spins on his right side but not on his left. - 4 add moves or higher hit by Ryan and not Vasek... p-whirl lft, blur lft Technically Vasek had more difficult moves and longer and more difficult combinations. Also, Vasek's routine built in difficulty with his last 15 moves being his hardest moves and combos of the routine. Ryan's hardest combo was his 16th to 20th move of the routine. This is not to say that Ryan's routine was very much easier than Vasek's. Both these player executed extremely difficult routines. However, at this level, and with question in the air, the focus is on... what made the difference? Now, I want to be clear personally. This critique may seem heavily in favor of Vasek. However, this is because Ryan's strengths were not missed by many and Vasek's seem to have been missed. The controversy, if there is any, so far revolves only around the question... how could have Vasek won? It is my job to investigate this. So now I report to you how the judges rank score reflect the players performance relative to one another. If I were a judge I would still pick Ryan the winner. Why? In my expert opinion he just about swept the presentation card and... while Vasek just about swept the technical card... if either player gained an advantage, I feel it is Ryan because I think his presentation victory was of a margin SLIGHTLY higher than that of Vasek's technical victory. AND... I feel the one drop weighed heavily enough to turn the tide if I had doubt. However, I also realize that it was ABSOLUTELY... DEFINITELY close enough to go either way. The judges scoring reflects EXACTLY that. There were 6 1st place rank scores for Vasek (4 in technical merit) and 4 1st place votes for Ryan (3 in artistic impression). Neither player had anything less than 1st or 2nd place rank finishes base on scores which were very close. This is my final analysis. As Director of Freestyle WFC - 2002 I now consider the matter closed to official review. However, feel free to continue the debate. Again, I only ask that the judges and most of all... the players be respected. No matter what the outcome of this great battle... we were all treated to Footbag Freestyle's best of all time. What more could we ask for? Eric Wulff co-Executive Producer Director of Freestyle World Footbag Championships - 2002 (415) 681-5729 side based on set foot… right side - rt left side - lft unique tricks in bold / combos outlined Vasek Ryan trick # trick name add value trick # trick name add value 9 blurry whirl - rt 5 2 step butter - lft 4 23 pix same side but - rt 4 4 step butter - rt 4 28 pix butter - rt 4 9 p-whirl - rt 4 30 blizzard - lft 4 12 p-whirl - lft 4 33 pix same side but - rt 4 13 ps whirl - rt 5 36 whirling swirl - lft 4 16 rip - lft 4 42 spin butter - lft 4 17 rip - rt 4 47 spin butter - rt 4 18 blur - lft 4 49 mobius 5 19 pix butter - rt 4 51 rip - lft 4 20 step butter - lft 4 52 rip - rt 4 24 spin whirl - lft 4 54 pix same side but - rt 4 38 rip - lft 4 55 step butter - rt. 4 40 blur - lft 4 56 rip - lft 4 47 rip - lft 4 57 step but - lft 4 52 rip - lft 4 64 drop 0 56 rip - lft 4 71 torque - rt. 4 57 rip - lft 4 75 ducking osis - rt 4 60 blur - lft 4 81 scorpion tale - lft 5 64 rip - lft 4 88 rip - lft 4 65 rip - rt 4 89 rip - rt 4 80 rip - lft 4 90 blizzard - lft 4 87 rip - lft 4 94 pix butter - rt 4 108 pix butter - rt 4 95 rip - rt 4 122 rip - lft 4 96 rip - lft 4 127 blurry whirl - lft 5 97 barfly - rt 4 129 rip - lft 4 98 spin osis - lft 4 130 rip - rt 4 99 p-whirl - rt. 4 131 blur - lft 4 100 spin osis - lft 4 102 pix drifter - rt. 4 104 blurry whirl - lft 5 105 ps whirl - rt 5 106 spin whirl - lft 4 108 spin butter - lft 4 28 fours 26 fours 17 unique fours 10 unique fours combos of 4 adds or more… combos of 4 adds or more… 2, 3, 7, 3 5, 2, 2, 3 5 Fives 2 Fives All unique All unique 1 combo of 2 Fives to a four no 5 to 5 or 4 to 5 or 5 to 4 ad combos From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 17:14:18 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12538 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:14:18 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:58:54 -0700 Received: from 24.202.3.248 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:58:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.202.3.248] Reply-To: TheMouse@footbag.org From: "Mickey Mayer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Worlds 2002 videos? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:58:53 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2002 22:58:54.0055 (UTC) FILETIME=[2827AF70:01C2489D] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, Been a long while since I haven't written to this list. Anyway, after watching the three routines on Flipsider.com, I was wondering if anyone has made a video of sideline shreds from Worlds 2002? If so, I'd like to discuss the price, length, etc. Take care, Mickey Mayer From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 17:29:58 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA13269 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:29:58 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:18:13 -0700 Received: from 24.169.91.134 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:18:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.169.91.134] From: "Sean Plucinik" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Small Laver's Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:18:12 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2002 00:18:13.0210 (UTC) FILETIME=[3CD51BA0:01C248A8] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all i am getting my sister in to footbag. but we are having some trouble getting shoes for her. her foot size is about a 4 in womans. and she would like the red bottom lavers. i've been looking alll over for em but i can't find them. if any one knows a link or store that could provide us with some shoes then that would be great. she'll see you at the worlds in 2013...;) ~Sean "The Upsetter" Plucinik From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 18:36:08 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA15780 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:36:08 -0700 Message-Id: <200208210136.SAA15780@llic.net> Received: from [12.228.93.49] by web12804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:25:29 PDT Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:25:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matt Baker" Subject: [freestyle] Show and Shred!! To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org YO YO YO!! All this debate is good. I have not seen the list go off this much in a long time. This is great for the sport. This forces us to all think about what we think a winning routine is. What is presentation?? I feel I have a good idea of what presentation considering I make my living by entertaining people. If you are calling the Finals a "SHOW" and I believe that was how it was advertised as a "SHOW" the emphasis should be on a show. What is a show?? You should ask yourself what does the crowd respond well to? If you want to be a performer take my advice right here. A audience does not care on how technical your act is. All they want is to have a good time and be part of the "Show". To build a relationship with the performer that is what a audience wants. Of course us footbag players do not care about that relationship we just want to see the HARDEST TRICKS! You have to look at it from a non footbaging spectators view. Ryan and Vasek were very great performing to the music on cue doing Hell of hard tricks. Neither of them even looked at the audience!? The comment was made that they invited the audience in through there skill. I would have to disagree with that! Presentation sure, is how well you play to the music and choreograph your routine. That is only one part. How unique is your routine? What routine is the spectator (non footbagger) going to remember? Ryan and Vasek got standing ovations but so did Yacine and Alex. Yacine and Alex let the audience see who they are let them be part of the performance. That is why the got the big O. Alex in particular got a very low presentation score. Sure he obviously had Hell of drops and did not execute his tricks as well but he still got a STANDING OVATION! That should tell you a little of what a audience responds to on the presentation side. He had a lot of drops and not hard tricks and still got the big "O". His routine was unique with great ideas. He had the footbag come out of a balloon!! That is Phat! We don't encourage unique routines we only encourage being unique in the moves we do. What is wrong with that?? I just don't understand how a routine that was so entertaining get such a low presentation score. Don't get me wrong I do not think Alex should have won but I use him as a example to show where we all kind of gage presentation. Ryan and Vasek had phat routines to the music and with sick tricks. I did not feel that there stage presence was any good. After their routine I did not have any idea of who they were. They showed no emotion and did not engage the audience outside of there tricks. Yes they got the Ovation! Again though the audience was made up of mostly footbag players who knew how difficult those tricks are. To the average person they don't know. I think the judges did a good job with there decisions.I just wish we put more emphasis on the crowd and a quality routine with audience engagement and technical skill. Remind me why we have the 30 second shred again?? One note from my observation on the routines. So many of the footbag routines I watched all your focus was on the tricks. Take a few hard tricks out and put in two good eye contacts with the audience. Example: PETER IRISH! Peter Irish and Lon smith two great examples of creativity, Audience interaction and technical skill. My hat goes off to Peter for performing a perfect blend of skill and entertainment. Peace and thanx everyone for the great time at worlds. I hope you all had a good time. Don't be to quick to try and rip me a new asshole. Peace Matt Baker Performers Posse Brothers From Different Mothers!! From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 19:25:36 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id TAA17358 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:25:36 -0700 Message-Id: <200208210225.TAA17358@llic.net> Received: from [209.48.222.22] by web11501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:05:30 PDT Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:05:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <200208202226.PAA08476@llic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Stan, who said the new system was easier to implement? Where did that come from? l8r vince From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 20 22:50:25 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA23456 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:50:25 -0700 Received: from c4720a ([12.252.38.10]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020821050004.YGPK1746.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@c4720a> for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:00:04 +0000 Message-ID: <009d01c248d0$a63b5960$0a26fc0c@attbi.com> From: "Richard Reese" To: Subject: [freestyle] The B.A.P. and World's Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:07:29 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello footbag enthusiusts, this is an official update on the Big Add Posse and Its' most recent inductees. Throughout the week of worlds all the present BAP members look on to shred circles to get a glimpse of what the future holds, and this year was pretty much a no brainer, with tons of notables. This tournaments inductees are Vasek Klouda, Jan "Honza" Webber, Jim Penske, Ales Zelinka and Brian Fournier. Crazy Glue Klouda, Spiderman Webber, Kingpenske, Superman Zelinka, and Blackjack Brian. (nicknames subject to change). Congrats to all of these very worthy freestylers. The Czechs were in full force all week, Vasek lined up his Worlds victory all week with unbelievable combos, 10 vortex to mobius with 3 more 5's to seal that combo, at 15 years young, he took video tape of the best and mastered it, in only 2 years, it brings a smile to my face to think of the future of this sport. I walked up to the Worlds site on Tuesday, saw some shred going on, said hello to a few good friends, and out of the corner of my eye, saw some kid hit scorpion tail to flurry like it was nothing. Turns out it was Ales, 16 years young. Now this kid could hit almost anything, but his triple around the world and his triple over down just made me sick, and I saw him come one inch from a quadruple around the world, no bull! Honza was 2nd in the Sick 3, He hit, I believe Blurry Whirl, Blurry Blender, Loco motion. He was consistant all week and played constantly, with a hurt knee I might add. Penske was pretty much the American answer to Vatslav and Co. He would bust Phat, long combos all week as well, paradox legbeater to blurry whirl, repeat other side. Nuclear drifter.stepping swirl to blurriest, you get the picture. Brian has been bustin' triple atw's also, along with a few years of constant shredding...paying his dues, is a welcome addition to the Posse. Now, There are probably 2 dozen stylers Worldwide that are on the brink of the Posse, Many are already Posse in My eyes but have not shown up to the Big Show and Shredded their Asses o ff for an entire week to get put in. And just to let Mr. Fogle Know, There will never, ever be Post BAP freestyle. We are here to stay! I know that You, Derrick are pre-BAP and are a very good freestyler, but all those 2's you used to put into your combos just didn't do it, So STOP Bashing the Big Add Posse.On a lighter note, there were so many sick shredders that need mentioned, Brad Nelson, Jeff Lopes, Sam Colclough, Jeremy Benton( who has hit shooting paradox blender), Chris Pinkus ( my god those toes), Dan Koklow, Brian Parsons, and to anybody I missed that was there, I apologize. To the shoe ins when they show up with their shoes....Ken Somolinos and James Risden. Thanks for Reading, Keep Shreddin' Rippin' Rick Reese Original BAP From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 21 11:11:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA18903 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:11:42 -0700 Received: from laxerone@netscape.net by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.ed.4abac47 (16226) for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.net (mow-m03.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.131]) by air-in02.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILININ22-0821070528; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:05:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:05:28 -0400 From: "Jan Zimmermann" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Swiss Videos Message-ID: <50F249BA.56A5EA1C.0078AB1E@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I'll be posting some videos from the swiss scene under www.sole-rebels.ch (downloads). So far I have the intermediate finals routine of the european champion as well as the best scenes of the open doubles net finals from euros, some videos from the final rounds of freestyle from the swiss champs last weekend plus some small movies I made from footage of myself and guests (Niki Bagic and Tu Vu). Jan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 21 11:19:16 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA19198 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:19:16 -0700 Message-Id: <200208211819.LAA19198@llic.net> Received: from [65.92.244.136] by web11606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:13:36 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ellis Piltz" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds Videos!!! To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org PLEASE SAVE THE VIDEOS TO YOUR COMPUTER. I pay real money to keep Flipsider.com online. If I continue to get so much traffic, I will have to upgrade to the Infinite Plan for only $500/month. I have had 13 GB of traffic in the past week (obviously due to all the debate), and 21 GB so far in August. That's a lot of hits! I ask that all of you save any videos you wish to see in the future on your computer, instead of downloading them every time from my site. It's very easy. HOW TO SAVE: 1. On the 'hyperlink' (the text or picture you click to download the video), 'right click' and choose 'save target as'. 2. Select a folder, like 'My Documents' or another folder you will remember how to find. Click 'Save'. I don't know how to do it on Mac, so if someone wants to post a follow-up message on this, please feel free. Thanks, everyone. Ellis Piltz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 21 17:40:21 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA03562 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:40:21 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:31:28 -0700 Received: from 64.157.188.57 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:31:28 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.157.188.57] From: "Pete Irish" To: derrick@fogles.net Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:31:28 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2002 00:31:28.0447 (UTC) FILETIME=[413E64F0:01C24973] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derreck Fogle wrote: " Prepare yourself for post-BAP era freestyle." ???!!! With names like Vasek, Penske, Alesh, Honza, Fournier now in the Big Add Posse, it's hard to prepare for anything like "post BAP era freestyle" !! Executioner From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 21 17:41:54 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA03612 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:41:54 -0700 Message-Id: <200208220041.RAA03612@llic.net> Received: from [216.102.64.34] by web14401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:56:01 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <200208210225.TAA17358@llic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Just a quick, irresistible 2 cents, from a styler who saw and loved World's Freestyle Finals 2002: Count me among those many who feel strongly that Vasek's drop should have made all the difference between 1st and 2nd place. Given two routines so excruciatingly close in both difficulty and presentation (which many of you assert to be the case--including the judges), it seems absolutely clear-cut to me that the dropless routine should have been considered, overall, the "most perfect" of the two. I believe that a very specific modification to the judging system is in order--that is, including an *execution* dimension, based on the sole, objective criterion of DROPS. Conflating this dimension into difficulty and presentation, i believe, is exactly what allowed such an (arguably?) skewed result to occur. Difficulty Presentation Execution Separate but equal. Two cents, aa From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 21 20:36:37 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA10180 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:36:37 -0700 Received: from storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net (storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net [209.240.213.67]) by smtpout-2001-3.public.lawson.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 4E072BF93 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id TAA20732; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:37:54 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQHE981pUttftdQvcTpjKjoDNCvGAIUGaObRw9pdLKlyGZ6S96ejHgS9qs= From: GFSmoothie@webtv.net (Greg Nelson) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:37:53 -0400 (EDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Funtastik Attendance Message-ID: <22858-3D644E81-608@storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi! Who will be at Funtastik on Labor Day Weekend? I will be there with the family. I have a friend who needs to share a room with someone at the host hotel. If anyone is in a position to do that, it would be greatly appreciated. Please respond to me personally. Thanks, gf From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 21 22:34:58 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA15354 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:34:58 -0700 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078421C632C for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id EDB70E4AE; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:30:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Dohovenus Bob To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Reverse Whirl and Illusion Reply-To: dohovenus@planet-save.com X-Originating-Ip: [130.212.200.30] Message-Id: <20020822053039.EDB70E4AE@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'm sure this has been covered somewhere, but until users are able to search all of the archives at once, I'm not going through every single one to find the discussion. Why is there no such thing as Paradox Reverse Whirl or Illusion? According to my weak understanding, there's no double-hip crunch in Paradox Illusion, which is not on the .org list. However, there IS a Stepping Paradox Illusion (Blizzard - the step must work in some weird way to add a paradox that I just don't understand, because there's no double-hip cracker-breaker), and there ISN'T a Blurry Reverse Whirl. Or maybe it just isn't listed? I think you've got some 'splainin' to do. At least to me. Regards, Vadim the Dunce. Locrian for life. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 03:25:26 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id DAA24218 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 03:25:26 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020822094500.ICYB13899.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:45:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3D64B4BC.DD88BDA6@attbi.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 04:54:04 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dohovenus@planet-save.com CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Reverse Whirl and Illusion References: <20020822053039.EDB70E4AE@sitemail.everyone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Vadim wrote: > > Why is there no such thing as Paradox Reverse Whirl or Illusion? These are two separate questions. Illusion can be paradox, but reverse whirl cannot. Because illusion is a complete dex, the dex can be paradox. Because it can be paradox, it can be blurry. Boo yeah. Reverse whirl is not a complete dex - much like butterfly or clipper set mirage. So... no complete dex, no paradox. Paradox requires a complete dex, but this doesn't mean that all complete dexes are paradox. As for paradox illusion not being on the move list, it was just an oversight. It has been added. Paradox illusion (paradox reverse mirage): clip > same out [pdx][dex] > op toe [del] Thanks for the question. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 11:00:04 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA07946 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:00:04 -0700 Received: from [207.160.174.20] (HELO crtntx1-ar9-4-65-161-079.crtntx1.dsl-verizon.net) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 1619209 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:25:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:37:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 07:31 PM, Pete Irish won the prize by being the only one to actually read my post and notice the phrase 'post-BAP era freestyle', and respond thusly: > With names like Vasek, Penske, Alesh, Honza, Fournier now in > the Big Add Posse, it's hard to prepare for anything like "post BAP era > freestyle" !! Yeah, you're right - I went way overboard. How about 'BAP+', or better yet 'BAAPP' (Big Adds [And Presentation] Posse). BAP has been the single most defining influence in history of Freestyle by quite a margin. I can't imagine it just going away. Even if it were to go away, what comes next would still be defined as 'what comes after BAP' - a true testimony to BAP's profound force. While many of the top echelon of BAP have always been incredibly stylish and presentation-savvy (you being among the best of the best, Pete), there has been a noticeable lack of interest in those things among ensuing waves. The last time I whined about it on the list, some BAP wannabees pretty much told me flat out that they don't give a f* about anything but hitting hard moves. Getting back to explaining the 'post BAP era' quip: BAP has become successful enough that there are numerous players that are technically incredible, and the only thing left to distinguish these players is their style and the finer nuances of rhythm, or drops. It's a natural evolutionary process; once there are enough people that are interested and really good at one specific thing, it becomes other things that are associated with that one thing that become important distinguishing factors. I hope it doesn't turn out that drops become the focus, because we've been there before and it really stunts freestyle potential. That would be really sad. I, personally, hope that freestyle dancing rhythm becomes more important, because it can add so much more to footbag freestyle. -Derrick From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 12:50:00 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA13530 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:50:00 -0700 Received: from Tina (cs24243230-212.austin.rr.com [24.243.230.212]) by sm11.texas.rr.com (8.12.1/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g7MIQtUl017438 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:26:56 -0500 Message-ID: <002201c24a09$d0b15980$b47ba8c0@Tina> Reply-To: "Tina Lewis" From: "Tina Lewis" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:29:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Great points Derrick - Illustration at Worlds - Look at who placed where in the Big 3 and 30 second shred (very cool Events!!!) I think if we are having these 3 distinct Freestyle Competitions - we should make at least one of them presentation heavy with a huge penalty for drops. I think there is room for both. Those who value the hard tricks more than presentation have the Big 3 championship and 30 second shred championships as measures or will consider them more prestigious than the traditional(?) freestyle event. Tina "While many of the top echelon of BAP have always been incredibly stylish and presentation-savvy (you being among the best of the best, Pete), there has been a noticeable lack of interest in those things among ensuing waves. The last time I whined about it on the list, some BAP wannabees pretty much told me flat out that they don't give a f* about anything but hitting hard moves. Getting back to explaining the 'post BAP era' quip: BAP has become successful enough that there are numerous players that are technically incredible, and the only thing left to distinguish these players is their style and the finer nuances of rhythm, or drops. It's a natural evolutionary process; once there are enough people that are interested and really good at one specific thing, it becomes other things that are associated with that one thing that become important distinguishing factors. I hope it doesn't turn out that drops become the focus, because we've been there before and it really stunts freestyle potential. That would be really sad. I, personally, hope that freestyle dancing rhythm becomes more important, because it can add so much more to footbag freestyle." From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 13:13:29 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA14948 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:13:29 -0700 From: Damonmath@aol.com Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.9.) id z.ce.2b6717f0 (15875) for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m31.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID72-0822155721; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:57:21 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:57:21 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Message-ID: <6ED71874.71BB7E85.0229878D@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org BAP? --- Are they still around? I once dreamed of being a part of the most "elite" footbag freestyle posse on the planet. Until recently it seemed that the Big Add Posse was the group to watch. Stylers bustin' long strings, big adds, and inventing the combos that give you nightmares in your sleep. "How can I catch up?, it seems they keep raising the bar." These were the words uddered under the breathe of expecting hopefuls, like Cameron Kennedy, Jason Crook, and Myself(Damon Mathews). Every year the bar went up. Even shreddin' out weaker BAP members couldn't get you in(Slacker BAP, you know who you are). Now there is descention in the ranks. The group that once dominated the sport since it's early days, has been dethrowned. The torch (sorry Ahren :) ) has been passed to a group of young, energetic, superstars, who don't even realize what they've done. In one tournament they've destroyed "Egos", made the hardest combos standard practice, and they did it all out of teamwork, rather than competition. I don't look to BAP anymore for inspiration(except the founders), I look to "Them". The next generation of shred superstars. To quote the great Kenny Shultz, "I thought this sport was hard, I'd of bet money on it!". WOW! Even Kenny is amazed at this new turn of events. The face of footbag freestyle has officially been changed forever. So what's next, will objects be incorporated into standard shred (like Allan)? Or will the "grab" catch on (like Cameron)? Or are these just useless attempts at expanding the circle? Who knows. But one things for sure, if you ass isn't on fire, then you haven't been inspired. Congratulations to Vasek, Alesh, and the rest of the Czech Brigade. You've certainly shown us and the world, just how "phat" freestyle can be. Play Hard! Have Fun! Damon Mathews www.blurryworld.com From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 13:44:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA16356 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:44:56 -0700 Received: from [10.20.16.28] (HELO DBJPC8200) by dantz.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 5283559 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:18:01 -0700 From: "Dennis B Jones" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:19:57 -0700 Message-ID: <004101c24a19$48c8c430$1c10140a@DBJPC8200> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >BAP has been the single most defining influence in history of Freestyle It is a force, and it really hit me at this years worlds how much it has pushed the sport. My brain is still healing from all the sick combo's I saw, and how many people can bust out phat runs. D-Money From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 13:51:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA16614 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:51:48 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:49:06 -0700 Received: from 208.141.176.73 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:49:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.141.176.73] From: "Jim Penske" To: derrick@fogles.net, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:49:06 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2002 20:49:06.0664 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B559E80:01C24A1D] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ever since I started freestyling I have looked up to all the bap players more than anyone. My goal in life was to someday be in the Big Add Posse. I think BAP's an essential part of footbag. It helps shredders push the sport to unbelievable heights. Being in BAP, I think, is the greatest honor in footbag. My point... BAP FUC*IN RULES!!!Long live the Big Add Posse!!!!! peace, Jim Penske >From: Derrick Fogle >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle >Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:37:34 -0500 > >The last time I whined about it on the list, some BAP wannabees pretty > >much told me flat out that they don't give a f* about anything but > >hitting hard moves. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 18:20:02 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA27931 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:20:02 -0700 Message-Id: <200208230120.SAA27931@llic.net> Received: from [203.167.249.231] by web21404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:05:41 PDT Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:05:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Kingi" Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey shredders the world over, --- Jim Penske wrote: > BAP FUC*IN RULES!!!Long live > the Big Add Posse!!!!! In all sports there will always be individual athletes who will distinguish themselves above all due to there skill level and capabilities. As a player of footbag just the idea of the bap is inspiration enough to motivate me to strive for new moves, longer runs and smoother technic. Just one thing i can't help thinking about is the fact that in say 5 years time the bap will be huge, and the true pioneers of this sport (not just those who started the freestyle movement but those who push the boundaries of the sport) will no longer stand distinguished and recognized as the true elite. Let me just clear up something, by elite I don't mean an untouchable few who are better than the rest of us in a value sense, but simply that they deserve respect and recognition because of there dedication to them selves and the sport we all love. In disciplines like martial arts, truly advanced people are given "status" by a belt system which does stop at black (or white if you're using a sash system). I think induction in to the BAP is a great thing to inspire up and coming players, but i think there should be an upper level for those who have earned it. Any way just my 5 cents worth... Later, Johnny From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 18:20:35 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA27951 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:20:35 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:52:19 -0700 Received: from 68.102.107.148 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:52:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.102.107.148] From: "Chris Harry" To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:52:19 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2002 00:52:19.0944 (UTC) FILETIME=[559B6E80:01C24A3F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org WHAT are you guys talking about? I dont believe the fact that a 15 year old kid won the world championships means that the world is coming to an end for our beloved freestyle footbag heros of the so called "past" i dont think a new generation of freestylers was instantantly created with the judges decision at the 2002 worlds this year. Vasek is a talented freestyler, regardless of his age, i dont think we need to ride the "new generation" pony for freestyle footbag to gain any headway as far as promotion is concerned. Ryan Mulroney, Sunil Jani, Eric Wulfe, and Carol are all still my personal favorites/heroes. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 22 21:26:06 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA02890 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:26:06 -0700 Received: from mattl6cueqyx7t ([12.217.240.36]) by sccmmhc01.mchsi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020823023114.FIGT23220.sccmmhc01.mchsi.com@mattl6cueqyx7t>; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 02:31:14 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01c24a4d$725efc40$9fe9b00a@mattl6cueqyx7t> From: "Matt Mueller" To: "John Kingi" , References: <200208230120.SAA27931@llic.net> Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:33:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think we should have a belt system ;). It would be cool to go to worlds and see what belts everyone has. Interesting concept. btw, I knew you were just talking about martial, arts but o well ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Kingi" To: Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle > Hey shredders the world over, > > --- Jim Penske wrote: > > BAP FUC*IN RULES!!!Long live > > the Big Add Posse!!!!! > > In all sports there will always be individual athletes > who will distinguish themselves above all due to there > skill level and capabilities. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 23 00:51:05 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA09546 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:51:05 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:43:48 -0700 Received: from 63.60.196.71 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:43:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.60.196.71] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:43:48 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2002 07:43:48.0844 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1569AC0:01C24A78] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi again, Sorry for sounding ignorant but what do BAP members do once they're in BAP (that they didn't already do?) What's so special about it (apart from simple recognising the most hardcore freestylers in the world, as if they don't already know that they're awesome!) Thanks Jeremy From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 23 08:42:44 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA23879 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:42:44 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:08:56 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7D6A@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: "'John Kingi'" , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:08:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > -----Original Message----- > From: John Kingi [mailto:circle_lord@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 9:06 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle > > I think induction in to the BAP is a great thing to > inspire up and coming players, but i think there > should be an upper level for those who have earned it. I think freestylers today are maybe a little too worried about being formally recognized for their skills. Does it really take someone formally announcing "wow, you're good at freestyle" to be good at freestyle? BAP's cool and good for pushing limits (and probably good for the ego of those inducted) but who cares really? As an example, I don't think Ken Somolinos sucks because he's not in BAP. Similarly, I don't think Kenny Shults rules because he's in it... Both of these players are among my favorites simply because they're awesome footbag players - BAP or not BAP matters not. In my opinion, we all know who is awesome, we all know who's really pushing the limits, there's plenty to strive for, and the best of the best are recognized as just that in the minds of knowledgeable freestylers around the world. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 23 08:44:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA23936 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:44:32 -0700 Message-Id: <200208231544.IAA23936@llic.net> Received: from [195.24.43.142] by web14805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:03:07 PDT Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:03:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Pavel Belchev" Subject: [freestyle] Facile and Amara question To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-463490177-1030111387=:36211" --0-463490177-1030111387=:36211 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello there, please excuse me for such a [silly] question, but after the Worlds Finals and the BAP discussions, I got the feeling this list can easily handle some trivial stuff..:) I am a very "green" freestyler willing to learn as much as possible about freestyle in particular and about footbag in general.. So I ran across footbags made of "Facile"and "Amara" on the net. Well I know what amara is already - i have some pakistani bags, and it is fine for me. Just I need the expert's opinion - is it comparable to Facile, is it worse, or is it the same? Unfortunately, i couldn't find the answer of this question on the net - both Facile and Amara are common words, and searching in industrial directories doesn't earn much as well.. I know many of you guys sew bags yourself, could you please share what stuff do you use and where can one get it? Any info & advice will be appreciated, thank you for your time Pavel --0-463490177-1030111387=:36211-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 23 08:51:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id IAA24171 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:51:07 -0700 From: "Ted Huff" Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.9.) id r.71.2468bea3 (4196); Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <71.2468bea3.2a97904b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:19:07 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle --- recognition of excellence To: circle_lord@yahoo.com CC: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org There is another level of recognition beyond BAP. It's the Footbag Hall of Fame, and is voted upon by ALL players worldwide every year. Starting in January , until March 31st each year, YOU all have the opportunity to nominate & second, third, etc. any one that you feel has added their leadership via play, innovation, promotion, etc. to the growth of Footbag worldwide, from past to present. The people ( top 5 ) in receiving multiple nominations during that period, are added to 5 carried over from the prior year's voting, then these 10 + ties, are voted on by peers of yours that are already in the Footbag Hall of Fame. Induction has been held at the World Championships each of the last 3 years, as example. The fact that more BAP members are not on the final ballot is primarily due to potential nomination supporters, readers of this listing, and footbag@footbag.org, are slacking in their support of their leaders ! Where's the freestyle support of such past singles champions, as example, as Rippin' Rick Reese or Sam Conlon ? Please think about that when nominations are again open in January 2003 ! Or when you feel that freestyle isn't given enough credit/recognition by sponsors of the sport ! Until then, if you have any suggestions for changes in criteria for induction, which has not been restricted to retirement from any open singles play, you can direct them to me, OR the head of our review committee: the great , Footbag Hall of Fame Member, Kenny Shults at kenshults@aol.com Keep shredding & please add some more to presentation !! Just maybe not fire to the stage like Alex Zerbe did ! ( but, that was cool to see ! ) best regards, Ted Huff, co-director Footbag Hall of Fame Historical Society From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 00:22:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA05064 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:22:07 -0700 Received: from toppers [209.145.194.31] by safeaccess.com (SMTPD32-7.12) id A6F5C600A6; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:19:49 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01c24ae9$70a397c0$0200a8c0@toppers> From: "Kit Topper" To: References: <20020822053039.EDB70E4AE@sitemail.everyone.net> <3D64B4BC.DD88BDA6@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Reverse Whirl and Illusion Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:09:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derric Scalf wraught: > Paradox illusion (paradox reverse mirage): > > clip > same out [pdx][dex] > op toe [del] Ok, so if clip same illusion get the pdx credit, why doesn't the nuclear set get it? It IS just as complete a dex as the pdx illusion. I know you said that not all complete dexes are paradox, but if there's going to be an exception, there must be a logical reason for it. For my part, nuclear sets are at least an add harder than atomic... Kit Topper 3-2-1 Shred! Footbag Club Guiltless Kickin' in AZ From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 00:25:28 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA05152 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:25:28 -0700 Received: from localhost (sjani@localhost) by itsa.ucsf.edu (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA70178; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:58:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:58:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sunil S. Jani" To: Ted Huff cc: freestyle list Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle --- recognition of excellence In-Reply-To: <71.2468bea3.2a97904b@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted: Regarding the constituency of the footbag hall of fame: On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Ted Huff wrote: > The fact that more BAP members are not on the final ballot is primarily due > to potential nomination supporters, readers of this listing, and > footbag@footbag.org, are slacking in their support of their leaders ! This is total crap, crap, trash. Ted, don't you dare try and blame this on the general footbaggers and freestylers on the list and footbag.org. The fact of the matter is that we rallied to get Rippin, Pete, Wulff, and Sam on the ballots at least once (or twice) in the past two years. They were on the ballot and then it goes into the current footbag hall of fame members hands to vote them in. WE PUT THEM ON THE BALLOT... you and your peers as a whole negged them... hopefully the review committee and Shults will see that such travesties do not get carried out as such in the future. > Where's the freestyle support of such past singles champions, as example, as > Rippin' Rick Reese or Sam Conlon ? Please think about that when nominations > are again open in January 2003 ! Or when you feel that freestyle isn't > given enough credit/recognition by sponsors of the sport ! I have nothing but the utmost of respect for the pioneers who helped build the sport of footbag... each and every person in the hall of fame contributed so much to what we have today... but when Rippin, Pete, Sam, and Wulff are on the ballot and don't get in... its just silly. Yes, there are many who have yet to be recognized for contributing to the sport in the past, but the people I listed have been contributing to the sport for decades AND STILL ARE... give them some friggin respect... THEY ALL DESERVED TO BE FIRST BALLOT HALL OF FAMERS!! > > Until then, if you have any suggestions for changes in criteria for > induction, which has not been restricted to retirement from any open singles > play, you can direct them to me, OR the head of our review committee: the > great , Footbag Hall of Fame Member, Kenny Shults at kenshults@aol.com I have spoken to you and Kenny about this multiple times... as for now, I have full faith in the review committee. Regarding the BAP: On a separate note, induction into the BAP is not an end... it is just a milepost along the path... if you are only playing to get in, then not only will you be disappointed if you do not get inducted, but you might very well be disappointed if you do ever get inducted. Play for the love and play for growth... thusly, you will never be let down. Sunil S. Jani From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 00:26:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA05186 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:26:50 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:48:20 -0700 Received: from 63.60.196.73 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:48:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.60.196.73] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:48:20 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2002 12:48:20.0975 (UTC) FILETIME=[86CA47F0:01C24B6C] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok, now that I know (or at least think I do) what BAP is all about I'll voice my opinion on it. I don't think BAP does anything for footbag. Don't misunderstand me, I've got no problem with it and it's good to recognise the best people in any field. But it's a completely superficial thing to be selected into. I really can’t understand how anyone could say that it’s the most influential thing that has ever happened in footbag. My biggest influence is www.footbag.org. Without that I would never have taken the sport up beyond circle kicking. Is there anyone out there who seriously has improved their game because the either wanted to become a BAP player or became one? Would Ryan and Vasek not be as good if there was no such thing as BAP? Perhaps it has influenced the players who are either in it or almost in it more then anything else. But how many footbaggers is that? 10? 15? And how many footbaggers are there in the world? I would hope at least 1000 dedicated freestylers. It’s probably more but I wouldn’t want to over estimate. So about 1% of them might have been influenced by BAP and you have the arrogance to say that it is the most influential thing in footbag? Ok, that’s all I’ve got to say. I’m sorry to the 1% of footbaggers out there that I’ve offended but do we really want our views on footbag to be controlled by the elite top players? Their position is only prestigious because of the rest of us! Jeremy O’Wheel From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 00:30:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA05258 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:30:14 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:17:09 -0700 Received: from 65.94.250.46 by pv2fd.pav2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:17:09 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.94.250.46] Reply-To: yax@footbag.org From: "Yacine Merzouk" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: Funtastik attendance Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:17:09 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2002 15:17:09.0678 (UTC) FILETIME=[50B63CE0:01C24B81] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello Freestyle Buddies! This year again, Funtastik look like it's going to be the bomb. A lot of players had too much money on their hands and will be in Harrisburg next week-end. Some renowned freestylers have already confirmed they will attend - and I didn't talk to all the east-coasters - Me(!), Hurricane, GFSmoothie, Tsunami, Flash, Caroline B., and Peter Brocka (aka The Horny Virginian). Hopefully Mr. Shults, Mr. Irish, and a few others will be able to show up. See you all next week! -Yacine Merzouk ----Original Message Follows---- From: GFSmoothie@webtv.net (Greg Nelson) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Funtastik Attendance Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Hi! Who will be at Funtastik on Labor Day Weekend? I will be there with the family. I have a friend who needs to share a room with someone at the host hotel. If anyone is in a position to do that, it would be greatly appreciated. Please respond to me personally. Thanks, gf -Yacine Merzouk yax@footbag.org Shred! From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 00:35:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA05438 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:35:48 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:48:18 -0700 Received: from 66.244.91.11 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:48:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.244.91.11] From: "Jonathan Bean" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Stepping Diving Down-Double-Down Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:48:17 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2002 00:48:18.0081 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A459110:01C24BD1] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, I hit stepping diving down-double-down cleanly, twice today (two witnesses). I was wondering if this has ever been hit before? It probably has but if not I'd like to call it Phantasma (def. an illusory mental image). Here the move is in Jobs' Notation: clip > op in > dive > same out > same out > op clip. Thanks -Jonathan Bean From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 00:41:40 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA05600 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:41:40 -0700 Message-Id: <200208250741.AAA05600@llic.net> Received: from [12.228.93.49] by web12804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:18:28 PDT Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT) From: matt baker Subject: [freestyle] Halloween Jam in Seattle! To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up! We in Seattle are contemplating throwing a jam here at the end of October. I was wondering if we did who would show up?? If you are any bit interested let me or Alex know so we can gage how many people would attend. Thanx peace . Matt From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 10:48:35 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA24385 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:48:35 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:12:14 -0700 Received: from 210.49.190.48 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:12:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.49.190.48] From: "Dan Ednie" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Ankle Flex Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:12:14 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2002 08:12:14.0523 (UTC) FILETIME=[1ED410B0:01C24C0F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello footbaggers One of the biggest and most common problems in footbag (particularly intermediate and open freestyle) is that of not having enough ankle flexibility. Any player who has good flat ankles has an enourmous advantage over any competitors. But other than Kenny Shults method, explained at the start of Tricks of the Trade, what revolutionary method of finding increased flex is there? I'd be particularly keen to hear how Brian Mckenzie and Vasek obtained such incredible flex. If you have any tips, please don't hestitate to post them, no matter how obscure they are, anything could and probably will help someone out there. Dan Ednie From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 23:12:26 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA18807 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:12:26 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020826003348.WMFU1186.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:33:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3D69799A.84E7B20D@attbi.com> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:43:06 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kit Topper CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Reverse Whirl and Illusion References: <20020822053039.EDB70E4AE@sitemail.everyone.net> <3D64B4BC.DD88BDA6@attbi.com> <001b01c24ae9$70a397c0$0200a8c0@toppers> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Kit Topper wrote: > > Ok, so if clip same illusion get the pdx credit, why doesn't the nuclear set > get it? Nuclear is paradox atomic. So, yeah... it can get the paradox add. Moves that go back to the setting side after the set (pdx legbeater [nuclear butterfly], pdx atom smasher [nuclear mirage], etc.) complete the first dex, so it is paradox. Moves that stay on the nuclear side (nuclear same side butterfly, nuclear same side osis and stuff like that) don't get the paradox add because they never really complete the paradox part of the move. So... the nuclear set isn't the paradox. It is what you do *after* the set that completes the paradox part of it. > if there's going to be an exception, there must be a logical reason for it. Hehe.. not always... it is called paradox for a reason, you know. I think if you look hard enough, there are pretty good reasons for everything, but not always. Take pdx tap for example: clip > same out (plant) > same in > op toe. Is there a paradox here? I don't know... the first dex isn't ever completed. But... if you took out either dex, it would be paradox. The same could be asked about a nuclear same side whirl. Go figure. I hope I helped clear up something here. It got a little confusing half-way through trying to explain it. If anyone has any comments on that pdx tap, I would love to hear them. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 25 23:15:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA18924 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:15:32 -0700 Received: (qmail 20046 invoked from network); 26 Aug 2002 04:45:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail17.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 26 Aug 2002 04:45:53 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: , Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:39:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6ED71874.71BB7E85.0229878D@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry, I just need to respond to one thing here... and this isn't personally directed at you Damon... although it is a little philosophical diatribe of mine and your comments inspired me to go down this path once again. It seems to me that many people put a negative spin on "competitiveness". It seems to me they're often referring to those who only care about winning or those who are sore losers as "competitors". In reference to the Czechs you wrote... >and they did it all out of teamwork, > rather than competition. Bottom line in my opinion is... teamwork IS competition. True, healthy, strong, competition is cooperation and teamwork at it's highest level. People who are competitive thrive against/with those who can challenge their skill and creativity. I always want to win... but I always want to do it against others when they're at their best also. Not win at any cost. I want the challenge. I certainly have come in somewhere less than first far more often than not. Even the greatest competitors of all time in any sport or competition see second place or lower (what most call defeat) far more often than they see 1st place. True competition is a very positive force. Ask the CFA members, particularly Vasek, Jan S, Jan W. and Ales if they are competitive? They are EXTREMELY competitive. For the most part, they also seem to be respectful to the competition whether they are experiencing victory or less than victory. But, let there be now doubt... they are vicious focused competitors. Eric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 11:04:06 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA07445 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:04:06 -0700 Received: from 66-214-249-86.gln-eres.charterpipeline.net ([66.214.249.86] helo=sam) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17jNrA-0005VN-00; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:40:52 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c24d27$4d67b260$56f9d642@charterpipeline.net> From: "Sam Colclough" To: "Derric Scalf" , References: <20020822053039.EDB70E4AE@sitemail.everyone.net> <3D64B4BC.DD88BDA6@attbi.com> <001b01c24ae9$70a397c0$0200a8c0@toppers> <3D69799A.84E7B20D@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Reverse Whirl and Illusion Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:37:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org From: "Derric Scalf" > Nuclear is paradox atomic. So, yeah... it can get the paradox add. > Moves that go back to the setting side after the set (pdx legbeater > [nuclear butterfly], pdx atom smasher [nuclear mirage], etc.) complete > the first dex, so it is paradox. > > Moves that stay on the nuclear side (nuclear same side butterfly, > nuclear same side osis and stuff like that) don't get the paradox add > because they never really complete the paradox part of the move. Nuclear butterfly feels less paradox than nuclear ss butterfly. After the set you can just fall over the bag rather than having to take that nuclear set leg and keep going changing your velocity constantly and now another... dex... ohhhhhh boo yuh From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 12:47:41 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA12675 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:47:41 -0700 Received: from [10.20.16.28] (HELO DBJPC8200) by dantz.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 5330605 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:17:15 -0700 From: "Dennis B Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Why BAP?, good question. Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:18:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c24d35$5851b370$1c10140a@DBJPC8200> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7D6A@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Why BAP? It is a good question, and really there is no direct answer. It would be impossible to simply answer that question with something like... BAP exists because of x. No it is more like BAP exists because of x = (p * v) s1 - (p * v) s2 + w (e.g. a little more complex) I just got back on this list, and perhaps this has already been covered, but I believe I can take a stab at answering part, not all, of this question. I am a founding member, was there in the hotel room when we came up with it, I started the conversation that lead to the birth of the BAP. I am not taking credit mind you, we all that night had a part in it. I started the conversation, Dimitri was the first to say we needed our own Posse, and Joey Shafer said ya "The Big Add Posse", and Tim Kelly said BAP. Why did this happen on that day, what lead up to this, some history. I got into Footbag in 1989, and shortly after met Dimitri who was also just starting to take up the sport. Berkeley at the time had some great freestylers but as a group the main focus was net. This showed at all local events in that the sites where completely chosen based on net and there was never space set aside for freestylers. These events had freestyle competition (I'll get to this is a second) but no area left for people to freestyle. Often we had to go find somewhere to kick away from the event, thus we where not really part of the event, or so it seemed to us at the time. Don't get me wrong here we did not sponsor, run, or have any part in setting up these events so it makes sense. The person/people investing time in the event should be able to chose where/when/what type of event it is. However it was strange to me as I entered this sport that at these *pro* events a freestyle circle was a rare thing. This was mainly due to the fact that Net was huge back then, everyone played even freestylers, Net was the *show* and the rest was the side show. Someone only interested in Footbag freestyle at the time was a rare thing. Dimitri and I where interested in one thing, and one thing only. FREESTYLE, to us that was it, nothing else mattered. We would sit and watch my 1989 worlds video in slow mo and try to learn the moves. Fortunately for me, Dimitri happened to be one the greatest new talents of the sport. His learning curve was incredible, and I struggled to keep him in site (in vain I may add). His skill pushed us, hard, we shredded every chance we got. I went to 1991 Worlds and had one of the best times of my life, but I was struck with how few circles there were, and how important freestyle competition mattered. In essence if you did not complete, you where not really a freestyler in the eyes of most people. huh? Competition was the main motivating factor that pushed freestyle and so the freestyle judging system was influencing the direction of the sport. At the time the judging system was setup with a huge penalty for drops, thus people played safe in their routines. This carried over to circle play, if you dropped every time you got the bag, never passing, you where considered a hog and you would get a lecture, the infamous "shred till you drop is wrong!, just do three or four moves and pass". How can you continue to improve if you are not pushing to the edge? How can the sport grow? It would be like lifting weights with 10lbs, forever. Not going to get strong doing that are you? If you are skool'n with your buds, pushing each other, then drops are irrelevant, few people at the time seemed to understand this but some did, and they were hitting the sh%t. The biggest combos hit at any event will always be on the side lines, but back then the difference between the biggest combos hit in competition vs. the biggest combos hit in circle was ridiculous. Two years went by, Dimitri and I never competed, people would say "Why don't you guys compete, yada, yada. They did not understand all we wanted to do was push the sport to higher levels. There were others who understood. Worlds 1993 was a huge marker in the history of freestyle. It has not been mentioned much in verbal history, and never in written history, but everyone on this list that was at worlds in 1993, who was a freestyler, will understand my next statement and how much of a impact it had on freestyle at the time and to this day. Never has there been such a discrepancy between the top freestyler and the rest as there was between Rippin' Rick Reese and all others. He was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone at the time. It was not another level, it was another plane. There was no move he could not hit, on both sides. Rippin' was the first to eliminate one and two add moves from his combo's, it was all three's, four's, and above and not just thrown together, linked with a deliberate blistering effect. It showed what a guiltless, balanced, phat combo could look like, and the sport has never been the same since then. It was late night, shortly after a jam, as was typical we gathered in Rippin's room and talked about freestyle. The discussion moved towards how lame it was that if Rippin' hit one of his phat combo's in competition he still would not win. He would still need floor planes and travel, flyers, unusual surfaces, etc. We all thought this was crazy, and I pointed out that the judging system was molding freestyle, or at least what people thought freestyle was, since it tried to make everyone happy, shredders, dancers, and others, it forced routines to conform to a generic vision. Basically do a few tricks, move around the floor, do some flyers, move around the floor, do some tricks, catch the bag on an unusual surface or two, done. Nope, that was not what we thought freestyle was, for us at least, it was phat combo's, trying new things, inventing new strings, pushing, skooling, bust'n phat combos! Dimitri said, "We need our own Posse!" Joey said "Ya, the Big Add Posse!" Tim said "B A P..., BAP!" That was it, BAP was born. What did it mean? It meant look Mr. IFAB we don't care what you think freestyle is, we are going to show you what freestyle is. We are going to make a commitment to ourselves to push the sport in the direction we feel with our hearts and soul the sport needs to continue to move. We are going to push each other. We are going to change the sport. We are going to get the recognition we deserve. We are brothers of shred. We are family. We are the Big Add Posse. D-Money From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 13:12:59 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA13747 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:12:59 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:10:17 -0700 Received: from 128.214.157.162 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:10:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [128.214.157.162] From: "Samuli Viitanen" To: freestyle@footbag.org, ednie@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [freestyle] Ankle Flex Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:10:16 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2002 14:10:17.0916 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E576FC0:01C24D0A] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello! Dan Ednie wrote: >One of the biggest and most common problems in footbag (particularly >intermediate and open freestyle) is that of not having enough ankle >flexibility. Any player who has good flat ankles has an enourmous advantage >over any competitors. A good point you've got there Dan, but I dare to disagree with you. On my opinion one does nothing with ankles that bend a lot, if one doesn't have good technical skills. Perioid. It's the same that one would have a brand new red Ferrari, but doesn't know how to drive a car. If one has ankles that bend, that's a good point to start from and helps a lot, I admit it. But ultimately in freestyle, it's all the question about having a good control, balance and technique, not how much the ankles bend. > >But other than Kenny Shults method, explained at the start of Tricks of the >Trade, what revolutionary method of finding increased flex is there? I'd be >particularly keen to hear how Brian Mckenzie and Vasek obtained such >incredible flex. > >If you have any tips, please don't hestitate to post them, no matter how >obscure they are, anything could and probably will help someone out there. The best way to *increase flex* on the ankles is to play:) Do a lot inside stalls and clippers. The muscles in the ankles will start to bend the more one practices. Whatever you do, DON'T force your ankles to bend!!! One may do serious damage to his/hers ankles by forcing them to bend! Some people just have natural flexibility, and we others just can be jealous about that;) -Samuli Viitanen, Team Finland Freestyler (whose ankles just won't bend) ps. I'd like to congratulate the Czech freestyle-trio for their outstanding outcome in the worlds. Respect. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 13:17:00 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA13916 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:17:00 -0700 Received: from inetsrv.callplus.co.nz (not verified[127.0.0.1]) by inetsrv.callplus.co.nz with MailMarshal (4,0,9,0) id ; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:06:14 +1200 Received: by inetsrv.callplus.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:06:14 +1200 Message-ID: <31E1140DFAD2D54FB91BAD8D475EC17CD60F48@inetsrv.callplus.co.nz> From: Adrian Dick To: "'Jeremy O'Wheel'" , "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:06:12 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Aside from inventing the concept of guiltless freestyle and most of the tricks, co-ordinating tournaments, and inspiring people around the world to play I don't think the BAP does anything for footbag either! Living in New Zealand my biggest influence is www.footbag.org But it was the video of Rippin' hitting some hein downloaded from www.footbag.org that started me playing freestyle properly. When I first saw that video I never thought I'd be kicking in a circle with him two years later in Portland. Cya Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy O'Wheel [mailto:lizard_king207@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2002 12:48 a.m. To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Ok, now that I know (or at least think I do) what BAP is all about I'll voice my opinion on it. I don't think BAP does anything for footbag. Don't misunderstand me, I've got no problem with it and it's good to recognise the best people in any field. But it's a completely superficial thing to be selected into. I really can't understand how anyone could say that it's the most influential thing that has ever happened in footbag. My biggest influence is www.footbag.org. Without that I would never have taken the sport up beyond circle kicking. Is there anyone out there who seriously has improved their game because the either wanted to become a BAP player or became one? Would Ryan and Vasek not be as good if there was no such thing as BAP? Perhaps it has influenced the players who are either in it or almost in it more then anything else. But how many footbaggers is that? 10? 15? And how many footbaggers are there in the world? I would hope at least 1000 dedicated freestylers. It's probably more but I wouldn't want to over estimate. So about 1% of them might have been influenced by BAP and you have the arrogance to say that it is the most influential thing in footbag? Ok, that's all I've got to say. I'm sorry to the 1% of footbaggers out there that I've offended but do we really want our views on footbag to be controlled by the elite top players? Their position is only prestigious because of the rest of us! Jeremy O'Wheel From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 14:02:34 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA16409 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:02:34 -0700 Received: from masina (datelb-1-4-62.dialup.vol.cz [212.20.101.97]) by smtp1.vol.cz (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7QKmwsj029931 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:48:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from moglum@volny.cz) Message-ID: <200208262248560570.00577D1B@smtp.volny.cz> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.20.01.01 (3) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:48:56 +0200 From: =?us-ascii?Q?=22Vojta_Pol=E1k=22?= To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Ankle Flex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id NAA15594 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, I guess I have to diappoint you about Vaseks flex.. I've been playing him since the begining of his career and he has never done any special stretches to increase his ankle flex. It is the same with me. My ankles are even more flexed then Vaseks. It is one of the very few tricks from my repertoire which still amazes him: frigid osis almost in front of the body ;) I have always been able to do frigid osis or frigid blender or arctic set with ease. It has to be innate. But you should be able to strech your ankle a bit more by doing this. Whenever you are standing somewhere like waiting for a bus, do an osis like movement and plant your foot with your outside touching the ground. I hope you know what i mean, it is like an inside stall but behind you. Then with apply gentle pressure on the foot. No strong force! That can only hurt you. You may look a bit weird while doing it but it sure helps.. Vojta Polak moglum@footbag.cz www.footbag.cz *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 25.8.2002 at 18:12 Dan Ednie wrote: >But other than Kenny Shults method, explained at the start of Tricks of >the >Trade, what revolutionary method of finding increased flex is there? I'd >be >particularly keen to hear how Brian Mckenzie and Vasek obtained such >incredible flex. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 17:48:44 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA27803 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:48:44 -0700 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 1843164 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:17:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:29:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id OAA17848 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 07:48 AM, Jeremy O'Wheel wrote: > I really canít understand how anyone could say that itís the most > influential thing that has ever happened in footbag. Excuse me? First off, I said BAP was the most influential thing in freestyle (specifically), not footbag (in general). But I might as well have, because freestyle is *the* scene in footbag today, and that's largely because of the tremendous energy and enthusiasm that BAP has created. I've been playing footbag for over 21 years now. I can see the influence BAP has had on freestyle. You just can't see the forest for the trees. I frequently criticize the "BAP mentality" for failing to acknowledge anything outside of the sheer difficulty of any given move, but to say that BAP hasn't been the single biggest influence on freestyle in the history of footbag is ludicrous! Only the invention of the stall could rival the significance of BAP's influence. As for the players, there hasn't been a single serious freestlyer I've kicked with in the past 6 years that hasn't had BAP stars in their eyes. I don't think the stunning popularity of freestyle outside America would have been possible without BAP's hardcore attitude. Footbag.org is rather freestyle-centric and coaxes players past the hacky circle largely because of the influence of BAP. Probably the hardest 10% (at least) of freestyle moves would not exist today without BAP. Without BAP, well, (insert just about anything here) would not exist. If you weren't there over 10 years ago, you just don't understand that BAP *is* what you call "hav[ing] taken the sport up beyond circle kicking." -Derrick "Funky Chicken" Fogle -possibly the last non-BAP player to ever make Worlds freestyle finals and not subsequently be inducted into BAP. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 17:52:01 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA28004 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:52:01 -0700 Received: by HotBOX.Ru WebMail v2.1 id g7QMdKKJ087246 for ; Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:39:20 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <200208262239.g7QMdKKJ087246@www2.mailru.com> From: "Artem Burmakin" To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Free WebMail HotBOX.ru X-Originating-IP: [217.151.131.15] Subject: [freestyle] Double Spin Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello list, I'd sincerely appreciate any double spin tips. Personaly or not. I'm really getting crazy with scooling them. ANY. Thanx in advance! Artem Burmakin "DUTCH" www.profootbag.ru From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 17:54:12 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA28089 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:54:12 -0700 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 1843414 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:40:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:52:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Why BAP?, good question. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Derrick Fogle To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <000a01c24d35$5851b370$1c10140a@DBJPC8200> Message-Id: <21AE60B2-B93E-11D6-8959-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Monday, August 26, 2002, at 02:18 PM, Dennis B Jones wrote: > At the time the judging system was setup with a huge penalty for drops, > thus people played safe in their routines. This carried over to circle > play, if you dropped every time you got the bag, never passing, you > where considered a hog and you would get a lecture, the infamous "shred > till you drop is wrong!, just do three or four moves and pass". Re-quoted for those crying about how important Vasek's drop "should have been". Just food for thought. > how lame it was that if Rippin' hit one of his phat combo's in > competition he still would not win. He would still need floor planes and > travel, flyers, unusual surfaces, etc. We all thought this was crazy, > and I pointed out that the judging system was molding freestyle, or at > least what people thought freestyle was, since it tried to make everyone > happy, shredders, dancers, and others, it forced routines to conform to > a generic vision. This, of course, is the crux of my criticism of BAP: failure to acknowledge that the ability to do all these 'fluffy' things requires some amount of skill and has some level of difficulty. The 'post BAP-era' thread started because I claimed that even BAP players were looking at some of these originally 'worthless fluff' elements to differentiate between each other; something I see as a critical shift from D-Money's portrayal of the genesis of BAP. I think BAP is FAR better than the "NO DROPS" era that preceded it; in fact, I think BAP is awesome! But... I think there is even more out there. -Derrick "the funky dancing footbag chicken" Fogle From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 18:53:20 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA30561 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:53:20 -0700 Message-Id: <200208270153.SAA30561@llic.net> Received: from [212.91.166.181] by web14806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:46:05 PDT Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:46:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Pavel Belchev Subject: [freestyle] What is Facile, anyone? Please? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry to repeat myself, but I tried many search engines and never found any good info on what Facile is or where to get some. There are only some dead links. Also, it is a very common word, which makes searches extremely more difficult && time consuming. I know many of you guys sew your own footbags, please advise what makes Facile so special and if it has something to do with Amara. Also, how do these two fabrics compare? There is no Facile in stores in my country (Bulgaria), nor Facile bags. Just imported Amara bags. I believe you are interested in promoting footbag worldwide, not only in discussing the BAP and flaming Ted Huff. Although my question is simple, it requires expert knowledge. I don't know of a better place to ask at. Thanks in advance. Regards, Pavel Belchev From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 26 23:46:54 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA09281 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:46:54 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:13:54 -0700 Received: from 12.23.66.38 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 05:13:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.23.66.38] From: "Ryan Burt" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] this is what its all about Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:13:54 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2002 05:13:54.0904 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A2F4580:01C24D88] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, I was wondering what huge insane tricks people noticed at worlds -- i heard Sunil hit a symposium Clown Face!!! holy crap(a seven add ending on a toe delay!!) so what was some other sick tricks hit?? Ryan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 27 02:42:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA14471 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:42:48 -0700 Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1H005NJPMZHQ@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 00:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml5so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml5so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.149]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1H0087QPMZNB@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 00:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-79-114-42.vc.shawcable.net [24.79.114.42]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1H00KMMPMXZD@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 00:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:49:29 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: [freestyle] Freestyle List Policies Reminder X-Sender: akeh@akeh.com To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020826234735.00a2de50@akeh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Members of the freestyle e-mail list, This is a periodic reminder of the freestyle discussion list policies. Please take the time to read this message as it will save you, me, and my volunteers on footbag.org a lot of time. -- (1) No advertisements: Don't even think of blatantly advertising for products or services for your own personal gain, or for that of anyone else. It's fine to edify and inform people of products, rate them and discuss them, etc., but it becomes a problem if it turns into a formal endorsement or advertisement. I run this service (with lots of help), under the auspices of a non-profit corporation, and with resources that cost me over $150 a month at the current rate. I will not have the list turn into a marketplace. I will not be responsible for transactions that go bad as a result of a member of my website or this e-mail list entering into any financial interaction with any other player or member. Repetitive, "subliminal" ads are NOT okay. 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For you regulars who keep getting bounced, and you know who you are, sorry but if your message doesn't show up and you see other messages showing up with a send date after yours, that means it was rejected. If you don't like this new policy or any of the policies we're going to begin enforcing, we urge you to go start your own list. -- (4) Thinking: Please don't reply willy-nilly to posts on the list. Think it out, decide whether or not you want to post the message to the entire list or just to a person you're talking to. And then, carefully consider whether your message will be rejected. It wastes the moderator's time and yours if you post a message that will be rejected. And you know who you are, those of you who have the same types of posts rejected over and over again, so please cool it. -- (5) Signatures and From lines: Use your real full name (first and last) in the From: line of your outgoing e-mail (you must configure this in your mail preferences). Use proper capitalization in your name. (E.g., if your name is John Smith, put John Smith in your name setting on your e-mail program; do *not* put "john smith".) ONLY users of AOL will be allowed to leave their names off the From: header because many AOL users can't set this up. But all AOL users *must* put their full name in the signature. Not just first name. Both names. No exceptions. With proper capitalization. ("Proper capitalization" does NOT mean ALL-CAPS. It means *proper* capitalization. Everyone should have learned this in second grade. If you are not old enough to have gone to second grade, you are not allowed to post to the list.) Again, to be clear, messages like this: From: "Sarah Chen" To: footbag@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [footbag] Why Hacky Sack is the worst footbag manufacturer *will* be accepted, whereas messages like this: From: "A goofy hacker" To: footbag@list.footbag.org Cc: marshall@yahoo.com, bill@excite.com, fred@poly.edu Subject: what he said will *NEVER* be accepted. :-) -- (6) Read up before posting: Do not post any messages to the list until you're *completely* caught up! That means, before you post a single message, read *all* the mail on the list that has arrived since you last read mail. Then, reply to the thread(s) you have replies for, and in some cases take the opportunity to reply to multiple messages on the *same thread* in the *same message*. Don't rapid-fire 6 messages on the same thread the same night, replying to everyone else's posts. That's just a pain for everyone. But be warned if you post a single reply to multiple different threads (see 9 below), you will be rejected. -- (7) Don't be lazy: a. Replying -- Don't include the entire message you're replying to in your post. Cut it down to just the bit you're actually referring to, to give folks context (in fact, this is requested, see 9 below). b. Posting -- Don't post questions that you can easily find the answer to yourself. Don't ask me or anyone else either, before you check the website. The best thing to do before you begin posting is to read *everything* at http://www.footbag.org/faq (F.A.Q. stands for "frequently-asked questions"), as well as on the freestyle section at http://www.footbag.org/freestyle -- and of course the footbag.org website is the repository for most of the information people frequently want relating to footbag. For example, don't post "what kind of shoe do people use?" or "what kind of footbag do people use?", and especially not "what kind of music do people listen to when they play?" The first two are easily answered by reading the information online; the third is just plain annoying. -- (8) Give context for follow-up messages: Similarly, don't reply without giving context! Always use the same subject line as the thing to which you're replying, and include a snippet of the specific point to which you're replying (and not the whole message, please). Use the *REPLY* function of your mail program, which will help you. Don't manually type Subject: lines because you'll probably get it wrong. For the threading feature of many people's mail readers to work properly, the subject lines have to be exactly right. Otherwise, if you randomly change the subject line every time you post, nobody can keep track of the conversation. Especially not a year from now when they're perusing the archives. (Has everyone seen the archives? It helps a lot to do that to get some idea why this matters. http://list.footbag.org/ ) -- (9) Stick to one thread at a time: Don't combine two threads into one. Keep them separate so people can follow the various conversations (see 8 above). Use your reply button/command to reply to messages on the list, so that the Subject: header is correctly reformatted to keep threads together as described above. -- (10) Keep your e-mail address up to date: Don't post to the list from an e-mail address in the From: line that is not subscribed to the list. If you change e-mail addresses, you must update your list membership (see http://list.footbag.org/). -- (11) Post to list addresses only when necessary: Don't write the list itself when you can write a more specific address. a. If you want to talk to someone and you can't remember their address, don't post to the list saying, "Hey, so-and-so, if you're out there, write me." The member directory at http://www.footbag.org/members/ is your best source of contact information, and/or the list archives which show the e-mail address of everyone posting (at http://list.footbag.org/). b. If you want to unsubscribe or have an administrative question regarding the list, for goodness' sake just ask the administrator (me) directly. If people don't know my e-mail address by now, ... Also, don't be afraid that Allan or I will bite your head off. Just expect it, and it won't hurt so much. :-) c. If you are replying to a message, never send your mail without looking back over it, seeing if the freestyle list is cc'ed or not, and only cc it if you are really sure! Many messages can just go privately and don't need to go to the list. Consider using private e-mail to follow up public posts, as opposed to completely open conversations. (Visualize it this way: every time you post to the freestyle list, you're walking up to the podium in a large auditorium and seizing the microphone. Vs. just walking over to someone who has just spoken over the microphone and continuing a private conversation on the sidelines.) -- These are not the only rules, but the most important ones. We reserve the right to refuse to post messages for any reason. Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're not happy with how we moderate this discussion group, feel free to create your own. Thanks. Steve and the all-volunteer staff of footbag.org From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 27 12:01:04 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA00632 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:01:04 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 05:12:33 -0700 Received: from 128.214.157.201 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:12:30 GMT X-Originating-IP: [128.214.157.201] From: "Samuli Viitanen" To: freestyle@footbag.org, moglum@volny.cz Subject: Re: [freestyle] Ankle Flex Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:12:30 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2002 12:12:33.0376 (UTC) FILETIME=[05F5EE00:01C24DC3] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi y'all again! Votja Polak wrote: >Whenever you are standing somewhere like waiting for a bus, do an >osis like movement and plant your foot with your outside touching the >ground. >I hope you know what i mean, it is like an inside stall but behind you. >Then with apply gentle pressure on the foot. No strong force! That can only >hurt you. You may look a bit weird while doing it but it sure helps.. Once more I have to comment about this... :) Before I found footbag I did a lot track & field stuff. At that time I also learned to do stretches and warm up excercises correctly. And the thing that I'd like to reply about is doing this osis-style stretch while 'waiting a bus'. When doing stretches that in the long-term would help one in becoming more flexible & elastic for certain moves, one MUST WARM UP THE MUSCLES COMPLETELY BEFORE STRETCHING!!! This may sound like I'm preaching or something, but it's very important!! I know what I'm talking about. If the muscles aren't warmed up, one might do damage to the ankles. I had a big injury exactly one year ago (though not related to stretching): I didn't warm up like I normally do and while hitting a pdx drifter, some tissue in my knee was torn. It hurt a long time and a lot. I had to go to a knee operation and wasn't able to do freestyle in 6 months. And it all occurred because I didn't do 10 minutes of warming up. Stupid old me. I hope that I'm not frightening any people out there, I'd just like to remind you all that footbag freestyle is a hard core sport where the whole body is under huge pressure. The moves that we are doing are not 'normal' things to do like running, so it takes time to evolve our muscle memory and flexibility to the level where we all can bust those insane combos back-to-back and mirrored, of course. Warm up, skool and stretch, that's all il takes!! -Samuli Viitanen, Finland From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 27 12:07:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA01000 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:07:50 -0700 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 1859894 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:50:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:02:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <986ACCE0-B9C5-11D6-A069-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Monday, August 26, 2002, at 09:39 PM, Jeremy O'Wheel wrote: > Are those moves invented directly because of BAP being in existence > (the players that invented them would not have been creative enough to > come up with them if they weren't in BAP) or were they invented by > people who happened to also be members of BAP? If it hadn't been BAP, I'm sure it would have been something else. The time was ripe for some rebellion, a changing of the guards. The very thing I criticize BAP about - the exclusion of any aspect of freestyling except 'big add' moves - created an incredible lazer focus on the development of those harder moves and combos. There's no way to know, but I'll stick by my assertion that perhaps the top 10% of the hardest moves that have been hit, maybe would not have been hit if not for the influence of BAP. > Clearly if the best freestylers are the only people allowed into BAP > then they would also be the people who invent most of the moves. Is > that because they are in BAP or because they are the best? "Or"? Try this: It's because they are in BAP *AND* they are the best. I don't know that much about BAP; my viewpoint if that of an outsider. But I think the core message of BAP is simple: to push yourself, and push your sport, past it's limits. That's a great message! It's the essence of passion - pouring your mind, body, heart, and soul into something, and not letting up. I've *always* seen players work their hardest, become the best, *then* be inducted into BAP. It's like a door that won't open for knocking, love, money, or explosives - if you aren't ready to enter. When you are ready to enter, you don't even have to knock; it opens for you as you walk up to it. -Derrick From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 27 12:08:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA01018 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:08:14 -0700 Received: from derrick.mlerf.org ([207.160.174.20] verified) by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 1859942 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:56:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:08:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [freestyle] Self-serving at worlds? From: Derrick Fogle To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7D801821-B9C6-11D6-A069-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Just wanted to scratch an old scab and check to see if anyone was observed self-serving at Words this year. -Derrick From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 27 14:59:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA09396 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:59:56 -0700 Received: (cpmta 662 invoked from network); 27 Aug 2002 13:17:40 -0700 Received: from 64.194.176.97 (HELO GHOSTPIRATE) by smtp.directvinternet.com (209.228.33.236) with SMTP; 27 Aug 2002 13:17:40 -0700 X-Sent: 27 Aug 2002 20:17:40 GMT Message-ID: <000b01c24e06$ca70de00$fa2afea9@GHOSTPIRATE> From: "Chris Pinkus" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Ankle Flex Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:17:38 -0700 Organization: GhostPirate.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The ankle stretching topic reminded me to write this: I saw on the news somewhere that they would give patients (who wanted knee surgery) their surgery, and half of them would get a "fake surgery". The ones who got the fake surgery were better off in the long run. So to any footbag players out there... knee surgery is bad. Especially if they tend to fiddle around with the meniscus padding in your knee. Anyone else know anything about how to help your knees in the long run? Chris Pinkus PS: Sorry for the wierd grammar, but I just woke up from a 14 hour sleep. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 27 15:18:03 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10139 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:18:03 -0700 Received: from CSC.footbag.org ([66.72.117.141]) by mailhost.chi1.ameritech.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20020827221253.JUWI18992.mailhost.chi1.ameritech.net@CSC.footbag.org> for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:12:53 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827172350.00a3ac30@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> X-Sender: scott_copyset@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:34:21 -0500 To: freestyle@list.footbag.org From: Scott Davidson Subject: Re: [freestyle] post BAP era freestyle In-Reply-To: <986ACCE0-B9C5-11D6-A069-003065BA9A0E@fogles.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derrick and all you other shredders! At 09:02 AM 8/27/02 -0500, Derrick Fogle wrote: >I've *always* seen players work their hardest, become the best, *then* >be inducted into BAP. It's like a door that won't open for knocking, love, >money, or explosives - if you aren't ready to enter. When you are ready >to enter, you don't even have to knock; it opens for you as you walk up to it. Very well spoken! I have to add, that when I was inducted into BAP (and I wasn't expecting it at all) my game skyrocketed upward. I am still learning new tricks and the new BAP members continually light a fire under my arse to keep me on my game, always learning. I must also say that Derrick rages with his shredding, even though it doesn't fit through the narrow scope of what might be "allowed" in a guiltless circle. Derrick has meshed the difficulty of BAP in with what I can only describe as "the joy of kicking." I have been skooling so much for so many years, that I too yearn to rediscover the "joy of kicking" for myself. Derrick, keep it up! All you shredders, you do the same! Keep shredding, keep flowing, teach your friends, smile.... repeat. See ya! Scott Davidson enlightener@footbag.org From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 27 23:49:25 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA27809 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:49:25 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:38:44 -0700 Received: from 63.105.21.223 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:38:41 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.105.21.223] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Self-serving at worlds? Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:38:41 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2002 06:38:44.0977 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E848610:01C24E5D] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick (the funky instigator chicken) Fogle wrote: >Just wanted to scratch an old scab and check to see if anyone was observed >self-serving at Words this year. Yours truly, I witnessed myself doing it on multiple occasions and I'd do it again. I'm sorry but if I drop a setting clipper I'm not going to pass it on to be passed back just to appease the Freestyle Fascists (you know who you are). Cheers to all. -Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 01:01:35 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA29783 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:01:35 -0700 Received: from pd4mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.214]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1J00CHSMMG0V@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:39:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml8so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.152]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.6 (built Apr 26 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1J006NRMMFMH@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:39:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-79-114-42.vc.shawcable.net [24.79.114.42]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1J000FVMMFNL@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:39:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:39:32 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] Self-serving at worlds? X-Sender: akeh@akeh.com To: damocles_schwert@hotmail.com Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020828002451.00a782e0@akeh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Andrew McCargar wrote: >> I'm sorry but if I drop a setting clipper I'm not going to pass it on >> to be passed back just to appease the Freestyle Fascists Don't be sorry for not knowing how to play the game. Just learn from your mistakes and move on ;-} I'd venture to say that self-serving is far more fascist-like behaviour than anyone telling you shouldn't do it. Peace, Allan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 02:20:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA31442 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:20:56 -0700 Received: (cpmta 18082 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2002 02:15:30 -0700 Received: from 64.194.176.97 (HELO GHOSTPIRATE) by smtp.directvinternet.com (209.228.33.239) with SMTP; 28 Aug 2002 02:15:30 -0700 X-Sent: 28 Aug 2002 09:15:30 GMT Message-ID: <000401c24e73$7383d3a0$fa2afea9@GHOSTPIRATE> From: "Chris Pinkus" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Knees and footbag Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:15:28 -0700 Organization: GhostPirate.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok, I found some references on the net regarding the knee surgery being a placebo. http://www.msnbc.com/news/778579.asp?0si=-&cp1=1 http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_604406.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/2119999.stm Chris Pinkus PS: Although I'm not saying knee surgery is good or bad, I'm just showing you guys that there is a different view on knee surgery. Because you can't undo knee surgery once it's been done. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 12:01:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA22661 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:01:50 -0700 From: "Dan Klokow" Subject: [freestyle] New vid out.. finally! To: freestyle@footbag.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7 March 21, 2001 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:10:02 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on ECSMTP01/EC/Rockwell(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 08/28/2002 12:11:40 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sup People, I finally finished my most recent film. Its 43 mins of sick footage from UCSF Jam and CSS3 with some extra footage from myself, Jim Penske, James Risden, and Brian Parsons. The main featured shredders are Lon Smith, and Sunil Jani, but there are a ton of others included in the video. To get a copy email me privately at pornstar@footbag.org or pornstar2713@prodigy.net , Thanks! Peace Dan Chicago Inner Cirle From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 14:58:45 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA30010 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:58:45 -0700 Message-Id: <200208282158.OAA30010@llic.net> Received: from [12.228.93.49] by web12803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:06:59 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Baker Subject: Re: [freestyle] post bap era footbag To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick you said "In the last 6 years I have not kicked with anyone who did not have BAP stars in there eyes" I agree that many up and coming freestylers driving force is to get recognized by BAP. I quit playing footbag for about 7 months because I stopped having fun playing. I stopped having fun because I was playing to impress other people and not for my own personal satisfaction. I was schooling so I would get recognized by the footbag community as a Hein shredder. I had to stop because I realized that I was not playing for me anymore. Why do we play footbag?? Is it because it is fun? Or is it because once you get good you get recognized and put on somewhat of a pedestal? The problem is that we give all these hein shredders movie star status. And we all want to be looked at right?? Kick because it is fun! Someone said to me the problem with BAP is that it is elitest. The reason being, "some," not all, but "some" BAP members watch every circle and judge you on your play. Do you not like to watch people who are not hein shredders?? If I was one of those people they were watching I would not want everyone watching me kick. Especially conversing amongst themselves about how I kick and gaging if I meet there standards or not. Footbag is meant to be fun! When people judge me it makes footbag not very fun. I am not dissing BAP all I am saying is that I do not like the elitest attitude that "some" of you portray. It feels very unaccepting and unapproachable. I know of instances where people have said to me that certain people would never get into BAP because they do not like them or are not cool. What's up with that?? I have had this conversation with many BAP players. Many of you say that elitest attitude is limited to those hein shreds at the end of tournaments. It is not limited there though. If I step into a small circle with Vasek there is like 15 camera's filming. When I step into a circle of that caliber everyone who is watching creates judgments on my play. Possibly thinking I am trying to represent my skills but in truth I am just hacking having fun with other people. That is where the fun stops. When all of a sudden I am not allowed in a circle. Suddenly who I am does not matter anymore to anyone it is just "can he bust phat?" A person should be judged by who they are and not by how good they are at footbag. If I got to the point where I was good enough to be on the list for Bap. Even If I got in I would not accept! Because it is not who I am and it not something I want to be a part of. You should kick for yourself and no one else! If you are kicking for the sole reason to get into BAP what are you living for? You are living for the acceptance of other people. Their are much richer accomplishments in footbag than getting into BAP. I do respect the level of where BAP players are. Lot's of time and devotion they put into their skill. The bottom line is that you should not play footbag to get into BAP you should play footbag because it is fun for you. Once you loose sight of that you have lost. Almost everything in life comes down to your intentions. So Derrick I am one person who is not BAP struck. I know of many others who are the same. Shred for you not some CLUB! Have a good day all and thanx for reading Matt's thoughts of the day. Come back tomorrow and here more on the psycological side of a human in footbag. Peace and have a good one. Matt Baker Performers Posse Brothers From Different Mothers From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 15:21:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA31180 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:21:09 -0700 Received: from mattl6cueqyx7t ([12.217.240.36]) by sccmmhc01.mchsi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020828210023.GOZP2075.sccmmhc01.mchsi.com@mattl6cueqyx7t> for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:00:23 +0000 Message-ID: <002101c24ed6$3df2ded0$9fe9b00a@mattl6cueqyx7t> From: "Matt Mueller" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Self-serving at worlds? Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:02:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Allan Hagget wrote: > > Don't be sorry for not knowing how to play the game. Just learn from your > mistakes and move on ;-} > > I'd venture to say that self-serving is far more fascist-like behaviour > than anyone telling you shouldn't do it. I know that first part is true, but I'd have to disagree. The best thing about footbag is the community. We need to lighten up - everyone plays different. (thats another thing a bout the sport) Matt From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 15:31:04 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA31473 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:31:04 -0700 Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1K00GO8QXQ98@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml9so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.7]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1K00IDNQZ9UF@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:11:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-79-114-42.vc.shawcable.net [24.79.114.42]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1K009DAQZ90D@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:11:33 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:11:21 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: [freestyle] List Policy - Read me please!! X-Sender: akeh@akeh.com To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020828150042.00aa8bc0@akeh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org List members, Seriously people, READ the list policy before you post!! I find it ironic(and annoying) that not even 1 day after re-posting the list policy reminder that 8 posts have come through that have obvious violations. I know many of you aren't very computer literate and just want to post to the list without the hassle of having to remember to do a bunch of stuff, but it simply isn't all that hard. If you want to post to the list *take the time* to read the list policy and understand it before you do so. Pretty please with sugar on top. Thank you. Allan H. Read the list policy here: http://list.footbag.org/majordomo/letter/freestyle?id=%3Cp0511172bb8e64bb8548c%40I%3E From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 20:52:51 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA12784 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:52:51 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:42:18 -0700 Received: from 68.102.109.108 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 03:42:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.102.109.108] From: "Chris Harry" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Help for schooling flipside moves Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:42:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2002 03:42:18.0812 (UTC) FILETIME=[1315AFC0:01C24F0E] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think I can help a little. For a long time I couldn't do any stepping set moves on my flipside, and I couldnt figure out why. Then while shredding I decided to take a break, sit down, and REALLY think about what i was doing on my strong side that I wasn't doing on my flipside. And I had figured out that i wasn't staying on my toes as I caught the clipper, and bam just like that I hit a rip walk and a stepping butterfly...of course im still a little rusty with these moves, but taking time to think about what I was doing wrong made all the difference in the world. The point i'm trying to make here is that learning moves on your flipside isn't always a physical problem more than it is a mental problem, next time u cant hit a move, you might try thinking about and visioning how it has to be done for you. keep shreddin. -Chris From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 21:06:20 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA13191 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:06:20 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:53:21 -0700 Received: from 68.20.183.110 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 03:53:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.20.183.110] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Self-serving at worlds? Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:53:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2002 03:53:21.0164 (UTC) FILETIME=[9DE094C0:01C24F0F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org OK... First, Derrick is not an instigator. He is a kicker that has more years kicking than most others. He understands, as I think he has exemplified in recent posts, the trend of the freestyle movement. He is a bit crazy, but he is a great person who means well with most (if not all) of his posts. I recently had a person ask me, "How does Derrick Fogle kick?" Huh? I was perplexed. It seems that since I kicked with Derrick for 4 years, I should be able to tell a story of his crazy antics and non-guiltless kicking style. He kicks. He busts guiltless when he wants to--no he is not on the cutting edge. Nor am I; nor are the vast majority of kickers out there. He doesn't shred guiltless the whole time (does his patented chicken run and more wild things on his whims...), but when he chooses to shred he can bust out long SMOOTH runs of 30+ contacts. That was not just for you Andrew, please don't think I am trying to read more into your post than was necessary. I just wanted to clear that up for all the young cats who do not know who Derrick Fogle is... Second, MAYBE, the other kickers in the circle do not think you deserve to kick the bag again at that point. I believe that is for the next kicker to decide, not me (unless I, of course, am the next kicker, in which case I make the decision for the previous kicker...). Peace Ian >From: "Andrew McCargar" >Derrick (the funky instigator chicken) Fogle wrote: > >>Just wanted to scratch an old scab and check to see if anyone was observed >>self-serving at Words this year. > >Yours truly, I witnessed myself doing it on multiple occasions and I'd do >it again. I'm sorry but if I drop a setting clipper I'm not going to pass >it on to be passed back just to appease the Freestyle Fascists (you know >who you are). Cheers to all. > >-Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 28 21:35:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA15053 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:35:48 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:23:14 -0700 Received: from 66.214.197.31 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 04:23:13 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.214.197.31] From: "Jonathan Wilson" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] fridgid osis Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:23:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2002 04:23:14.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[CA9831E0:01C24F13] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just don't get this trick. It's only a one add trick, and I've never even seen it done. Besides that, I just don't understand how you can possibly do an inside stall behind you without it being cross body. Can someone please go into a little further detail as to how much you bend your knees and where the bag is in relation to the rest of your body? I feel like it would just be a good trick to know when I start trying for the regular osis. Thanks everyone. Jonathan Wilson From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 29 21:57:05 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA05807 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:57:05 -0700 Received: from [10.20.16.28] (HELO DBJPC8200) by dantz.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 5363630 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:36:28 -0700 From: "Dennis B Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Derrick Fogle Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:39:07 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c24f82$fa192590$1c10140a@DBJPC8200> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed 8/28/2002 Ian Dubman said: (from thread Re: [freestyle] Self-serving at worlds?) >...I just wanted to clear that up for all the young cats who do not know who Derrick Fogle is... I too would like to shout some props to Mr. Fogle. Derrick's style is sweet, flat out. He is an inspiring person to kick with, he was the first kicker to give me an understanding that there is a rhythm to freestyle. I am not talking about music, I mean the underlying rhythm of a combo. He showed me back in the day (I bet he does not even realize this) that moves each have a timing and a natural rhythm. Derrick exaggerates moves for effect, this exaggeration brings out the rhythm of the move and combo. He also throws cools things between moves, like his knee didit infinities, sweet stuff. Everyone on this list can learn by watching Derrick Fogle kick. Cheers, D-Money From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 29 22:03:15 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA05972 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:03:15 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:29:31 -0700 Received: from 68.102.109.108 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 02:29:31 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.102.109.108] From: "Chris Harry" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] fridgid osis Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:29:31 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2002 02:29:31.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[1294D930:01C24FCD] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org For a long time i thought I was doing a frigid osis, because i thought a frigid osis was where u set for an osis but u dont spin before initiating it, like you normally do. I was setting from an outside delay on my right leg and going directly into an osis witht he same foot, by cranking my ankle and hopping to the side a little bit. Frigid osis' arent important to learn, it will probably make more sense to just try to learn to osis since firgid osis isnt even necessarily worth doing at only one add. And yes frigid osis is possible, u just have to be able to crank your ankle a lot and bend your support leg deeply, even then if you manage to do a frigid osis, its SOOOOO much easier to just follow through into a regular osis. Chris Harry >From: "Jonathan Wilson" >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] fridgid osis >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:23:13 -0700 > >I just don't get this trick. It's only a one add trick, and I've never even >seen it done. Besides that, I just don't understand how you can possibly do >an inside stall behind you without it being cross body. Can someone please >go into a little further detail as to how much you bend your knees and >where the bag is in relation to the rest of your body? I feel like it would >just be a good trick to know when I start trying for the regular osis. >Thanks everyone. > >Jonathan Wilson From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 29 22:03:30 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA06003 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:03:30 -0700 Received: from noah (wnpgmb01dc6-res-47-214.mts.net [142.161.47.214]) by smtp1.mts.net (8.11.4/8.11.3) with SMTP id g7TKmJa25247 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 15:48:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000701c24f9d$6bbd19d0$0300a8c0@noah> Reply-To: "erik" From: "erik" To: References: Subject: [freestyle] hackrifice video download Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 15:48:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello again. I have created another video. I will apologize for my other post a week or so ago. I made the mistake of posting during worlds. And I had to take the video down before the post actually made it through. This video is footage from last week, August 20th-26th or something like that: http://chan.pixelnation.cc/temp/hackrificeaug2002entireforrealthing.wmv (The video is 39.2mb, 23:53minutes long) Featured freestylers are: Derek Vandall Erik Chan Mark Leeman Rob Fuller Highlights include: -Blurry Reaper -Marius -Assassin both sides and spanishfly in a run -Fairy eggbeater -Pixie ducking butterfly > blurriest > blurry whirl -And more Enjoy! And I will try to keep this one online for a longer time. Thankyou, Erik Chan http://www.geocities.com/hackrifice/ From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 29 22:04:51 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA06056 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:04:51 -0700 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039491C3FBC for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 24D93393B; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:14:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Vadim Dukhovny To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Swirling Whirling Swirl Reply-To: dohovenus@planet-save.com X-Originating-Ip: [130.212.200.34] Message-Id: <20020830041406.24D93393B@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I can't figure out what Eric Windsor is doing at the end of Eli's movie, Lion's Den. It looks to me like Swirling Whirling Swirl, or something. Is that right? Regards, Vadim. Locrian for life. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 29 22:05:08 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA06085 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:05:08 -0700 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 6971FB72B; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:01:03 -0400 (EDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post bap era footbag Received: from [209.12.83.8] by xprdmailfe19.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:01:03 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = bdfd660340b0a46eec8f3da960e246ba Reply-To: williamcarroll@excite.com From: "" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: williamcarroll@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Message-Id: <20020829170103.6971FB72B@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello List, Peace and Love from the heart of the Deep South, Montgomery, Alabama USA. The discussions lately have been great, particularly regarding BAP, the nature of freestyle competition, and the evil of self-serving. I am curious about the vision we share regarding freestyle competition. Some issues that should be refined are what kind of an audience do we reach, what kind of an audience could we reach, and what kind of an audience should we try to reach. When I say we I just mean the freestyle community in the larger sense. Consensus on these issues would make it much easier to sculpt competition and events in the new century. For example, if you think that freestyle competition should be accessable and entertaining even for those who have never tried it, then perhaps the focus of routines needs to be changed so that people besides the players not only understand the results, but also feel more involved in the performance. However, if we, collectively, think that competitions are really a means for us to shred, hang out, and have a reasonable means of choosing who is probably the best, then the current system is quite nice. The idea of compulsory moves and routines, which draws on the parallel between freestyle and figure skating may need to be considered more. Perhaps expanding the shred competition would be a better idea. The current routines entertain, but could they be more entertaining for people who have never tried a clipper stall. Furthermore, is that really where we want to go? Where do the BAPsters want to go? Speaking of which, big props to all of the BAPsters including the new inductees. Matt Baker writes, That is where the fun stops. When all of a sudden I am not allowed in a circle. Suddenly who I am does not matter anymore to anyone it is just "can he bust phat?" A person should be judged by who they are and not by how good they are at footbag. Most of the BAPsters I have been around have been really great about making me feel included, and ya'll know who you are. A very few times I have gotten the vibe of being an unwelcome presence in a circle of mostly BAPsters. Anyone of any age and skill level should be encouraged to join any cirlce of kickers, and I encourage every one in our community to try to adopt this principle. Footbag should be more about inclusion than exclusion. A huge shoutout to all the footbag players who have housed me or let me take showers inlcuding but not limited to Lon, Sunil, Penske, Zerbe (you are the man), Bob (da dank) Green, Steve Goldberg (our hero), and Matt Baker. I know I am forgetting one important person's name. This is my first, I apologize for the length. William From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 30 01:59:34 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id BAA13874 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 01:59:34 -0700 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 6971FB72B; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:01:03 -0400 (EDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post bap era footbag Received: from [209.12.83.8] by xprdmailfe19.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:01:03 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = bdfd660340b0a46eec8f3da960e246ba Reply-To: williamcarroll@excite.com From: "William Carroll" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: williamcarroll@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Message-Id: <20020829170103.6971FB72B@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello List, Peace and Love from the heart of the Deep South, Montgomery, Alabama USA. The discussions lately have been great, particularly regarding BAP, the nature of freestyle competition, and the evil of self-serving. I am curious about the vision we share regarding freestyle competition. Some issues that should be refined are what kind of an audience do we reach, what kind of an audience could we reach, and what kind of an audience should we try to reach. When I say we I just mean the freestyle community in the larger sense. Consensus on these issues would make it much easier to sculpt competition and events in the new century. For example, if you think that freestyle competition should be accessable and entertaining even for those who have never tried it, then perhaps the focus of routines needs to be changed so that people besides the players not only understand the results, but also feel more involved in the performance. However, if we, collectively, think that competitions are really a means for us to shred, hang out, and have a reasonable means of choosing who is probably the best, then the current system is quite nice. The idea of compulsory moves and routines, which draws on the parallel between freestyle and figure skating may need to be considered more. Perhaps expanding the shred competition would be a better idea. The current routines entertain, but could they be more entertaining for people who have never tried a clipper stall. Furthermore, is that really where we want to go? Where do the BAPsters want to go? Speaking of which, big props to all of the BAPsters including the new inductees. Matt Baker writes, That is where the fun stops. When all of a sudden I am not allowed in a circle. Suddenly who I am does not matter anymore to anyone it is just "can he bust phat?" A person should be judged by who they are and not by how good they are at footbag. Most of the BAPsters I have been around have been really great about making me feel included, and ya'll know who you are. A very few times I have gotten the vibe of being an unwelcome presence in a circle of mostly BAPsters. Anyone of any age and skill level should be encouraged to join any cirlce of kickers, and I encourage every one in our community to try to adopt this principle. Footbag should be more about inclusion than exclusion. A huge shoutout to all the footbag players who have housed me or let me take showers inlcuding but not limited to Lon, Sunil, Penske, Zerbe (you are the man), Bob (da dank) Green, Steve Goldberg (our hero), and Matt Baker. I know I am forgetting one important person's name. This is my first, I apologize for the length. William Carroll From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 30 12:31:28 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA01210 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:31:28 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:07:58 -0700 Received: from 65.92.225.51 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:07:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.92.225.51] From: "Danny Cardonne" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] fridgid osis Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:07:57 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2002 16:07:58.0499 (UTC) FILETIME=[686DE730:01C2503F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Frigid osis' arent important to learn, it will probably make more sense to >just try to learn to osis since firgid osis isnt even necessarily worth >doing at only one add. If you do a move only because they have a big add count (which doesn't represent difficulty, just trying to) try a frigid blender -> 2add and much harder than a mirage! And it adds in variety too A little question: Does artic op mirage could get a paradox?? The motion is *similar* to blur... -- Danny From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 30 13:21:18 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA03291 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:21:18 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:31:07 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7DED@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Robert Riefer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] post bap era footbag Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:30:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Matt Baker wrote: > I quit playing footbag for about 7 months because I > stopped having fun playing. I stopped having fun > because I was playing to impress other people and not > for my own personal satisfaction. I was schooling so I > would get recognized by the footbag community as a > Hein shredder. I had to stop because I realized that I > was not playing for me anymore. Wow. This is incredible that you mention this at this time. Myself and my playing partners have been having a conversation precisely about this for the past few days. You see, the three of us that practice together the most are never going to be BAP. Don't get me wrong, we can play pretty well, and we dedicate time to it... But we all have time limitations and athletic limitations etc. It just ain't gonna happen that the three of us are ever good enough to be in that league of players. At the start of our conversation it was kinda getting us down. But our conversation is beginning to evolve. We're realizing that you can be awesome (**awesome**) at footbag without ever hitting the tricks that BAP players hit. There's different kinds of excellence in footbag, just as there's different levels of excellence in any other sport. For example.. basketball.. some can shoot, some can defend, some can handle the ball well etc. Only the very very best can do all these things, but that doesn't make the others that can do only some of these things well suck. > I am one person who is not BAP struck. I > know of many others who are the same. Me neither anymore. My mind is clearer now. I totally appreciate what BAP players can do, and part of me will always wish that I was able to do the same things... But, I'm ok at footbag in my own way too. That's cool with me. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 30 16:36:55 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA11801 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:36:55 -0700 Received: from masina (datela-1-3-1.dialup.vol.cz [212.20.97.146]) by smtp3.vol.cz (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7UNGatK064113 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:16:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from moglum@volny.cz) Message-ID: <200208310116340460.000F58B4@smtp.volny.cz> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.20.01.01 (3) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:16:34 +0200 From: "Vojta Polak" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] fridgid osis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On 28.8.2002 at 21:23 Jonathan Wilson wrote: >I just don't get this trick. It's only a one add trick, and I've never >even seen it done. Look no further than here: http://www.footbag.cz/video/trix/frig_osis.avi Vojta Polak moglum@footbag.cz www.footbag.cz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 31 12:32:06 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA14262 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:32:06 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:16:06 -0700 Received: from 63.105.21.223 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:16:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.105.21.223] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] fridgid osis Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:16:06 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2002 18:16:06.0650 (UTC) FILETIME=[795665A0:01C2511A] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Chris Harry wrote: >Frigid osis' arent important to learn, it will probably make more sense to >just try to learn to osis since firgid osis isnt even necessarily worth >doing at only one add. Everyone stop for a moment the next time you kick and think about something: How many moves do you do that DON'T end on a clipper or toe? How many kicking moves (clipper kick, leg over kick..), how many fliers, how many "unusual" surfaces, or even how many moves end in outside or knee? Cheers. -Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 31 12:40:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA14690 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:40:09 -0700 Message-Id: <200208311940.MAA14690@llic.net> Received: from [12.228.93.49] by web12807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:09:11 PDT Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:09:11 -0700 (PDT) From: matt baker Subject: Re: [freestyle] post bap era footbag To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wow- Alabama REPRESENT!!!! I don't think I have ever been so impressed with one person's post as I was William Carroll's. Wow, that post hit me hard. Man, William, way to say everything with such clarity. I hope everyone can hear what you are saying. All the questions you presented in your post were all very valid questions that need answers before this sport can develop. We should all think about the questions he posted and see what direction we want footbag to go?? William Carroll so brilliantly wrote: "If you think that freestyle competition should be accessible and entertaining even for those who have never tried it, then perhaps the focus of routines needs to be changed so that people besides the players not only understand the results, but also feel more involved in the performance." Where do we want freestyle competition to go?? What direction do we want routines to go? "The idea of compulsory moves routines, which draws on the parrallell between freestyle I figure skating may need to be considered more. Perhaps expanding the shred competition?" I am unclear on the difference between the shred 30 and routines? What differentiates the two besides longer and to whatever music you want. I think there needs to be some changes in our system. I will propose something in the next few days. William, thank you for posting. I only wish that our list was filled with more people who posted educated thoughtful posts. Write a book man I will buy it!! Hope you all join IFPA and have a say in the changes that are made. Peace, Matt Baker Performers Posse Brothers From Different Mothers From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 31 21:34:37 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA01142 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:34:37 -0700 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056321C7B87; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3D2FF394E; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:25:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Vadim Dukhovny To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Swirling Whirling Swirl Reply-To: dohovenus@planet-save.com X-Originating-Ip: [130.212.200.23] Message-Id: <20020901022550.3D2FF394E@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'm convinced. I'm not sure why it looked to me like Swirling, but I've seen the light. Secondly, I am sorry about saying it was Eli's film--I should have noted from the fact that it says "Devlahovich Films" in about ten places that it's by Chad... but I bought it from Flipsider, which is Eli's site, so I guess... well, sorry. Chad's film. Props to Chad--that's a great movie. Regards, Vadim. Locrian for life. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 31 23:51:39 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id XAA05224 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 23:51:39 -0700 Message-Id: <200209010651.XAA05224@llic.net> Received: from [64.12.96.44] by web21301.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:06:49 PDT Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:06:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Cohen Subject: [freestyle] Add Solution To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In just about every discussion that has been posted, i noticed, the topic of adds and how they do not represent the difficulty of the trick. An easy fix for that would be to make them represent the difficulty of the given trick.And i did some playing around with how you could do this, and i think i have come up with a petty good system. Xbody should not get an extra add count. Sure its harder, but only when your fist learning. After that, its just as easy, or easier, then a inside delay. That one change alone takes care of almost all of your problems. Well, thats just my opinion, but i think its a good one. Steve-O