From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 11:02:11 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA08055 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:02:11 -0700 Subject: [freestyle] ducking and paradox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:42:27 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <25892FED0DCC324B92D90F4C613A2BFE020CD2@swww.dmz.intellectualsolutions.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ducking and paradox Thread-Index: AcI5eGSxfJ0VDqVqEdap+wBQiwrP6A== From: "James Hermey" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id JAA01060 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello, Basically, does ducking or diving cancel a paradox? As in a paradox ducking da da curve? I know that spin/gyro will I did three of these in a row yesterday and had to stop because it was just too damn funny James Hermey (James@Hermey.com) From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 11:01:01 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA07890 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:01:01 -0700 Message-Id: <200208011801.LAA07890@llic.net> Received: from [65.92.242.64] by web11607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 08:49:00 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: [freestyle] X Games in Philly To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org East Coasters, I wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to the X Games on August 16-19 to play footbag. There will be official footbag demos there of both Freestyle and Street. Just FYI (not advertising), KickBag has a booth set up, where their footbags and Flipsider's videos will be sold to the public. I know there are a lot of you who may be interested in going, so give me an email if you plan to show up. Much obliged, Ellis Piltz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 18:15:03 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA26441 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:15:03 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:49:01 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7BDA@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] X Games in Philly Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:48:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On that note, if you're interested in more information on the X Games in Philly, go to http://www.philadelphiaxgames.org/ This includes a schedule of events etc. The games should be a lot of fun besides just shredding, so try to make it if you're anywhere nearby. Also, if you're from out of town and need a place to stay, you can try contacting a Philly Footworks member to see if they have crash space. Additionally, as we know more, information will be posted at our club page. Find our members and other information at http://www.footbag.org/clubs/show/964199836 Thanks! Bob Riefer Philly Footworks > -----Original Message----- > From: Ellis Piltz [mailto:ezshredz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:49 AM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: [freestyle] X Games in Philly > > > East Coasters, > > I wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to > the X Games on August 16-19 to play footbag. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 1 22:51:12 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA02979 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:51:12 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020802053653.VIKZ221.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:36:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3D4A1C82.BCBF5206@attbi.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 00:45:38 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Hermey CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org James Hermey wrote: > Basically, does ducking or diving cancel a paradox? No. > As in a paradox ducking da da curve? If you hit this move clean, it will be 6 adds. Just be sure that when you catch it, your foot is in the cross body position (for the paradox part). If you make contact and then scoop it to the xbdy position, you didn't complete the paradox. Make sense? > I know that spin/gyro will [cancel paradox] Spins don't cancel paradox either... Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 2 02:00:33 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA08365 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:00:33 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:29:54 -0700 Received: from 63.60.196.35 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:29:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.60.196.35] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:29:54 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2002 08:29:54.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[C724CF70:01C239FE] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, If spins don't cancel a paradox, how come a Vortex is only four adds? Shouldn't it be clip>spin [bod]> same in [pdx][dex]> same clip [xbd][del]? that looks like five to me! >From: Derric Scalf >To: James Hermey >CC: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 00:45:38 -0500 > >James Hermey wrote: > > Basically, does ducking or diving cancel a paradox? > >No. > > > As in a paradox ducking da da curve? > >If you hit this move clean, it will be 6 adds. Just be sure that when >you catch it, your foot is in the cross body position (for the paradox >part). If you make contact and then scoop it to the xbdy position, you >didn't complete the paradox. Make sense? > > > > I know that spin/gyro will [cancel paradox] > >Spins don't cancel paradox either... Later. > >-Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 2 12:01:38 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA24010 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:01:38 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020802181843.JETT22139.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:18:43 +0000 Message-ID: <3D4ACF1B.542161A2@attbi.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 13:27:39 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy O'Wheel" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] ducking and paradox References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jeremy O'Wheel wrote: > > If spins don't cancel a paradox, how come a Vortex is only four adds? > Shouldn't it be clip>spin [bod]> same in [pdx][dex]> same clip [xbd][del]? There isn't a paradox in vortex. A spinning paradox drifter (lotus) would be: clip > (back) spin [bod] > op in [pdx][dex] > same clip [xbd][del] Your normal paradox moves go like this: clip > SAME [pdx][dex] > Spinning paradox switches it up a bit: clip > (back) spin > OP [pdx][dex] > Basically after you do a spinning set, the bag switches to the other side of your body. A right foot clipper is on the left side of your body. Do a spin set from a right foot clipper, and the bag is on the right side of your body. That's why the paradox is 'switched' on spinning moves. I think this is about as clear as mud, but it's the best I can do right now. If anyone else wants to jump in here, feel free. Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 4 12:09:31 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA11694 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:09:31 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:35:12 -0700 Received: from 24.42.168.50 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:35:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.42.168.50] From: "Tony Zverev" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Video from Montreal Summer Challenge 2002 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:35:12 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2002 14:35:12.0889 (UTC) FILETIME=[2453B690:01C23BC4] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey List. RUSSIAN (!!!!) web-site is proud to announce super sensational video gallery from Montreal Summer Challenge 2002. Video is brought you by Tony Zverev! Right now 5 routines and shreds are available, later (in a few days) we will publish a coolest footbag film called "The Tam Tam Jam"....Montreal players know what i am talking about. This is the first time when russian footbag community is presenting any videos to english-speaking footbag players. Please, visit us and download small-sized and quality videos http://www.profootbag.ru/video_montreal2002_e.shtml A messageboard where u can leaver all your opinions, thoughts and comments is working in english. http://www.freestyle.ru/MyFs/profootbag/messages//166.shtml Thats All. Thank You. Tony Zverev From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:48:18 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10362 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:48:18 -0700 Received: from noah (wnpgmb01dc6-res-54-80.mts.net [142.161.54.80]) by smtp2.mts.net (8.11.4/8.11.3) with SMTP id g76Argk00121 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:53:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <004101c23d37$b1700780$0300a8c0@noah> From: "Erik Chan" To: Subject: [freestyle] Shred Zero Summer Open 2002 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:54:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi. This is Erik Chan from the Hackrifice team in Winnipeg, MB, Canada. I've made a video highlighting the Shred Zero Summer Open tournament in Calgary, AB, Canada, from early July of this year. The video stars the talents of freestylers: -Rob Fuller (Calgary, AB) -Derek Vandall (Winnipeg, MB) -Jeff Lopes (Kelowna, BC) -Jon Zaleski (Kelowna, BC) Highlights of the tournament included: -midstring goliath (pixie ducking dlo/alpine smog) -big popa smurf (fairy symposium swirling[?] blender/surfing blender) -blurry whirl > simple dyno > ps whirl -legbeater > barfly > scorpions tail -plasma (quantum double over down/toe blurriest) and blurriest (blurry barfly) in one run -and lots more The video can be downloaded here: http://chan.pixelnation.cc/temp/szsofull.wmv for a limitied time. The video is 24:46 minutes long. 54.4mb. I hope it's worth the wait. Thanks, Erik Chan http://www.geocities.com/hackrifice/ PS: you can also download these two teaser videos: http://chan.pixelnation.cc/temp/goliath.mpg http://chan.pixelnation.cc/temp/robfuller.wmv From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:48:11 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10351 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:48:11 -0700 Received: from 1sgpz01 (syr-66-24-59-181.twcny.rr.com [66.24.59.181]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/RoadRunner 1.20) with SMTP id g7BEfJL29107 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001001c24145$a734cf00$b53b1842@twcny.rr.com> From: "Tyler Linscot" To: Subject: [freestyle] Received: from 1sgpz01 (syr-66-24-59-181.twcny.rr.com [66.24.59.181]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/RoadRunner 1.20) with SMTP id g7BEfJL29107 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001001c24145$a734cf00$b53b1842@twcny.rr.com> From: "Tyler Linscot" To: Subject: [freestyle] Symposium Twirl Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:44:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey list, wondering if anyone has hit a symposium twirl/swizzel. I've had it role off my foot a few times today. my goal. clip>back spin>(no plant while)op swirl>op osis. gyro sym twirl. always shreddin' ty From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:49:38 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10405 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:49:38 -0700 Received: from uadvg131.cms.usa.net (HELO cmsoutbound.mx.net) (165.212.11.131) by cmsoutbound.mx.net with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 03:13:21 -0000 Received: from Bling.math.uga.edu [65.138.3.128] by uadvg131.cms.usa.net (ASMTP/pdxdrifter@mfire.com) via mtad (CM.1201.1.04A) with ESMTP id 396gHLDNW0210M31; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:13:48 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231246.021b5f58@mfire.com> X-Sender: pdxdrifter//mfire.com@mfire.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:13:25 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Xander Faber Subject: [freestyle] Who won at World's ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org So who won freestyle at Worlds? I can't believe I have to wait so long to find out!!! Alex Faber From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:49:58 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10410 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:49:58 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:52:15 -0700 Received: from 216.27.144.66 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 23:52:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.27.144.66] From: "Stan Sagalovskiy" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] promoting footbag Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:52:15 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2002 23:52:15.0431 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A8A6570:01C23DA4] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all! www.vistaprint.com is offering 250 free color business cards (though you do have to pay for shipping.) Everyone who has ever been approached by people asking about the sport, knows the value of having a good looking card that they can give out. Anyway, here's the link: http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/ns/bcfree.asp peace, Stan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 15:50:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA10459 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:50:53 -0700 Received: from cr976763a ([24.157.135.70]) by fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.06 201-253-122-126-106-20020509) with ESMTP id <20020813005455.YNJX334399.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@cr976763a> for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:54:55 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c24264$1db291c0$46879d18@glph.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> From: "Will Little" <242little@rogers.com> To: Subject: [freestyle] PS Da Da? Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:55:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.157.135.70] using ID <242little@rogers.com> at Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:54:55 -0400 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I have a question about a specific move. My friend Chad has been hitting Paradox Da Da Curve, and now has started hitting it without touching down with his setting/catching leg. We've been calling it Paradox Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. Does that element exist, or is it assumed in a Paradox Da-Da? He can hit it with or without planting, and it seems to have the elements of symposium. Ie: the support leg does the second dex, and the other leg sets, does the miraging dex, and then catches all without ever planting. I guess the issue is does it qualify for a symposium add? Will Little I always eat my Shred-ies! From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 21:23:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA22912 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:23:56 -0700 Received: (qmail 28074 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2002 03:58:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Aug 2002 03:58:16 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: Subject: RE: [freestyle] Who won at World's ?? Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:52:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231246.021b5f58@mfire.com> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I can't believe you haven't checked the website. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Xander Faber > Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:13 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: [freestyle] Who won at World's ?? > > > So who won freestyle at Worlds? I can't believe I have to wait > so long to > find out!!! From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Aug 13 21:30:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id VAA23251 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:30:27 -0700 Message-Id: <200208140430.VAA23251@llic.net> Received: from [209.48.222.22] by web11502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:46:50 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:46:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Vaek the Stampede? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Congratulations to Vašek! Triple Crown winner. Vince From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 11:33:25 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28855 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:33:25 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:18:35 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7C79@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] X Games in Philly Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:18:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org General update... Philly Footworks team members, as well as Ellis Piltz, and Kenny Shuyler (extreme footbag master) will be onsite at the X-Games this Saturday and Sunday (08/17 - 08/18). I wouldn't be surprised if Jon Schneider and other "locals" show as well. Where? Look for a bean bag rising and falling. Looking for the "Kick Bag" stand is probably a good place to start - I believe Ellis is placing vids for sale there, and Kenny Shuyler has an agreement to do demo's there as well. When? I believe Kenny Shuyler has demo's running at 12:30 and 4:30 from Thursday (tomorrow) through Monday. I am only going to be able to make it on Saturday and Sunday (this is the case for most Philly Footworks members) so, I'll only speak for those days.. We plan on arriving around 11:00 a.m. (possibly earlier) each day and will be playing for a long time. Information? Please check the X-Games site for any other info you may want. What I've told you above is what I know :) http://www.philadelphiaxgames.org/ later. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ellis Piltz [mailto:ezshredz@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:49 AM > > To: freestyle@footbag.org > > Subject: [freestyle] X Games in Philly > > > > > > East Coasters, > > > > I wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to > > the X Games on August 16-19 to play footbag. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 11:37:29 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA28996 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:37:29 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 06:58:53 -0700 Received: from 65.92.225.51 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:58:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.92.225.51] From: "Danny Cardonne" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] PS Da Da? Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:58:52 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2002 13:58:53.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[B951B700:01C2439A] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >From: "Will Little" <242little@rogers.com> >To: >Subject: [freestyle] PS Da Da? >Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:55:21 -0400 > > Hi all, I have a question about a specific move. My friend Chad has >been hitting Paradox Da Da Curve, and now has started hitting it without >touching down with his setting/catching leg. We've been calling it >Paradox >Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. It's not paradox, it's gyro... gyro: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *SAME* IN [DEX] > ... spin paradox: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *OP* IN [DEX] > ... >>Does that element exist, or is it assumed in a Paradox Da-Da? I'll say that every move exist! just not been hit yet !! >>I guess the issue is does it qualify for a symposium add? Da Da curve has a symposium in it... so you cannot say symposium dada because it already is. CLIP > OP IN [DEX] > (NO PLANT WHILE) OP OUT [DEX] > OP CLIP [XBD] [DEL] http://www.footbag.org/moves/showmove/904102092 -- Danny From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 11:39:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA29085 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:39:24 -0700 Received: from antivirus2.its.rochester.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antivirus2.its.rochester.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g79ErHO13439 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rochester.edu (mailnull@mail1.ats.rochester.edu [128.151.224.31]) by antivirus2.its.rochester.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g79ErDw13435 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ms009h@localhost) by mail.rochester.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g79EpWZ221013674 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:51:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mail1.ats.rochester.edu: ms009h owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:51:32 -0400 From: Mike Strumpf X-Sender: ms009h@mail1.ats.rochester.edu To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] footbag in LA Times In-Reply-To: <200105291950.MAA00313@list.footbag.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Don't know if anyone will see this cause you're all off having fun at worlds, but there is a big front page article in the LA times Southern California Living section today, including a huge picture of Sam Conlon. You can read it online (article is titled "It's Still Kicking Around"), but you have to do the LA Times free registration. http://www.latimes.com/features/lifestyle/ I belive after today (Friday) that link will change, but you should be able to search by the article name. (Stupid LA Times.) Article doesn't say too much, but it says that ESPN will be airing a clip of freestyle at the X-games (courtesy of Ellis, I belive). Well, enjoy. Mike From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 13:02:37 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA01361 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:02:37 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020814194307.PUPL19356.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:43:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3D5AB52B.F346D89F@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:53:15 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Little <242little@rogers.com> CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] PS Da Da? References: <000b01c24264$1db291c0$46879d18@glph.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Will Little wrote: > > Hi all, I have a question about a specific move. My friend Chad has > been hitting Paradox Da Da Curve, and now has started hitting it without > touching down with his setting/catching leg. > We've been calling it Paradox > Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. This move isn't symposium. Symposium dexterities are done with the support leg while the other leg never touches the ground. The only part of this move that *could* be considered symposium is the butterfly part of it... but... butterflies cannot be symposium. > it seems to have the elements of symposium. > Ie: the support leg does the second dex, and the other leg sets, does the > miraging dex, and then catches all without ever planting. I guess the issue > is does it qualify for a symposium add? Right. Some would consider the second dex (the butterfly) to be symposium. But because butterfly isn't really much of a dex, it can't get the add. It is a lot like the pogo (symposium stepping) set. If the dex isn't even close to being a full dex, it can't get the syposium add. So, to sum it up. Butterflies, like a stepping set, cannot be symposium. They are stylistic differences... not add-worthy differences. Cool? -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 13:05:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA01550 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:05:14 -0700 Received: from attbi.com ([12.239.73.16]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020814194948.QGKC19356.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:49:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3D5AB6BC.1E647792@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:59:56 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Cardonne CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] PS Da Da? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Danny Cardonne wrote: > > Paradox Symposium Da Da, but I havn't found it as such on any of the move lists. > > It's not paradox, it's gyro... Whoa there... dada doesn't have a spin in it. > gyro: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *SAME* IN [DEX] > ... > spin paradox: CLIP > (back) SPIN [BOD] > *OP* IN [DEX] > ... You've got your definitions pretty right on there (except that an out dex can be paradox too). It's just that these don't apply to pdx dada: clip > same in [pdx][dex] > op out [dex] > op clip [xbd][del] Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Aug 14 17:17:53 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id RAA12541 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:17:53 -0700 Message-Id: <200208150017.RAA12541@llic.net> Received: from [65.92.244.246] by web11606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:04:26 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Worlds Videos!!! To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up?!! I'm putting as much video from World's up on my site as possible. http://www.flipsider.com Right now, I only have the Top Three in Open Singles, but shortly I will have all ten finalists, plus Big 3 and Shred:30 videos. Enjoy! Ellis Piltz Flipsider From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Aug 15 15:27:48 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA26637 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:27:48 -0700 Received: from snipdsanchez (office158.snip.net [209.204.68.158]) by imgate2.snip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CF0D267F07 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01f501c244a4$9c252300$9e44ccd1@SNIP.NET> From: "David Sanchez" To: Subject: [freestyle] What fun I had at worlds Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:42:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org First of all I want to thank everyone responsible for making the event possible, those holding the event, those participating in the events, and anyone involved in general. I had one of the best times imaginable and found great pleasure in watching all of the people that I've never seen before. I could mention names of all of the people that amazed me but I would be here forever(plus I don't know some of the names) so I'll just mention the people that absolutely blew me away. Jim Penske was incredible and busted long run after long run with lots of sickness interwoven, very impressive. I didn't get too involved with shredding myself since I just started recovering from an injury that took over 2 months to heal, but I did kick a couple times and had lots of fun. I got the chance to kick with Brian Fournier and enjoyed watching his smooth style. A modest kid for being so darned good. Ahren Gehrman was still up to his usual, even though he wasn't competing he was still one of the most enjoyable shredders to watch. Sunil was busting out and demonstrating the absolute limit(as he pushes it further) of the dexterity world and pumped out a brilliant routine. As a side note, all of the finalists routines were prefaced by tiny video skits that were great entertainment. I'm told that Tu Vu is mostly responsible and I would like to give him some props. Unfortunately, during the presentation of the great new video "Where The Ripwalk Ends" I walked in as the video was ending. I was able to purchase a copy, but it looked like it would've been a nice experience to see a shred vid theater style. Props to Ellis for his video excellence. Speaking of vids, I hear that the Trade 2 is out. Judging from the raw material that Kenny had to work with the video will be a "necessary" element for future shredders, a virtual encyclopedia of freestyle in video format. Putting together such a thorough "lesson plan" is truly an amazing and tedious accomplishment, props to Kenny for sure. Of course I cannot mention highlights without mentioning the explosion of greatness from the Czech contingent. These kids were not only incredible shredders but seemed to have matching personalities. Honza was incredible and busted some sickness in the sick three. I don't remember exactly what it was because I'm a space cadet, but I know it was two crazy moves to a locomotion, which made me shake my head with disbelief. There was also Ales who had personality galore and showed up ready to compete and to make his impression on the world. He did some wonderful shredding and tore it up a bit with doubles as well. Vasik was indescribable. Anything that could be said about this kid would either be seen as an exaggeration, or would simply not be believed. This kid's shred is something that everyone should have the pleasure of seeing, you have to see it to believe it. Every time he touched the bag I watched closely, but am still baffled. Sometimes certain areas explode with ability, apparently the Czech Republic is bursting now and Vasik appears as the light from within. I know it sounds corny but like I said before, his abilities are indescribable. I thank the kids from Prague for making it all the way across the world to compete and perform and look forward to seeing the competition on their side of the world. Commenting about the open singles results is a touchy subject. While Vasik and Ryan both performed *perfect* routines, and if not perfect surely enough to put the judges in a tough position, only one routine can get 1st. Ryan performed an unimaginable amount of tricks while going right along with his music selection, hitting move after move and only slowing down to match the music, as perfect of a routine as I could picture. Vasik's routine had all the flash and flare that Ryan's had, arguably more? but did have one thing that Ryan did not, a drop. I am not by any means trying to take anything away from Vasik, as he deserves all the respect in the world, nor am I trying to say anything about the judges or the judging system, as the judges were faced with an incredibly difficult situation and a newly implemented system(which shows results almost immediately and will work with time and tweaking). With competition as close as the open singles, the only winners are the spectators, and I surely won my admission's worth times ten. Ryan surely cannot be told that he did not defend his title. In the end, the competition was pure entertainment. Tim Kelly had so much personality, perhaps too much for some, that he glued the performances together with ease and virtual seamlessness. Any time that Tim could not occupy with quirky remarks and juggling wonders was filled by performances by Alex Zerbe and ??? (So sorry that I don't know the name but the other portion of the Brothers with Different Mothers routine). Alex was both impressive as a footbagger as well as an entertaining comedian, truly unique performances with tricycles, balloons with footbags inside, oversized glasses and boxing gloves, and a darned woman's bathing suit. All this and deservingly made it to finals on FOOTBAG skills, not to mention the bravery, comedy, and pure energy that it took to do what he did. Fire was a bit much for the venue, but the crowd sure enjoyed it. I need to wrap this message up before it becomes a novel, so thank you all since it would be impossible to thank everyone individually, and see you next year at Prague. Shred it up, David Sanchez Philly Footworks P.S. Come out to the X-Games, many incredible athletes will be showcasing their skills, including some crazy stylers. I will be there Saturday later in the day and Sunday all day. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Aug 16 10:12:30 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id KAA05227 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:12:30 -0700 Received: (from www@localhost) by mail9.bigmailbox.com (8.11.6/8.10.0) id g7GGnsX26956; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:49:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:49:54 -0700 Message-Id: <200208161649.g7GGnsX26956@mail9.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [24.128.13.123] From: "Neil Bornstein" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Great Paradox Debate Part 2 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I can hear the groans already... Anyhoo, to start off let's repeat the definition of Paradox as defined by the paradox tutorial at http://www.footbag.org/facts/show?id=paradox-tutorial "Paradox" as a term only makes sense when used to describe a move that is more difficult than, but otherwise identical to another move -- wherein the difference is entirely attributed to the *set*. Furthermore, the set for a paradox move is always from the cross-body position. My complaint is that there are other sets which make a move considerably more difficult that aren't crossbody. Take for example a dragonfly kick. It is an easy trick to do, and personally one of my favorites. Now consider a dragonfly kick set from the opposite outside stall. out>jump[bod]>op in[dex]>op inside One of the ways a Paradox move is described as more difficult is the "double-hip-pivot." Imagine if you will, the aforementioned dragonfly kick set from the opposite outside. For the purposes of demonstration, we will assume it starts with a right outside delay. From there, one would set the bag about chest height, and put the setting leg down. To get the left leg in position for the dexterity, turn your body to the right, and perform the dexterity by jumping and turning back to the left. Then, kick the bag with the inside of the right foot. If you try this for yourself, you may notice that this version of the dragonfly kick is appreciably harder than the normal version, and at least as difficult as the conventional paradox dragonfly kick. In conclusion, I propose that paradox not only refer to crossbody sets, but any set that can make a move harder. Thank you, "Thwap Man" Neil Bornstein From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 11:30:28 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA26017 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:30:28 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 06:07:43 -0700 Received: from 210.49.190.48 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:07:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.49.190.48] From: "Dan Ednie" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Worlds Draw Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:07:42 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Aug 2002 13:07:43.0244 (UTC) FILETIME=[12AA34C0:01C245EF] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was just checking through the scores from the worlds '02 Open Freestyle Final, the one shrouded in controversy. I added up each score on an excel spread sheet and was pleasently surprised to find that vasek, though having two judges fouvour him and two drawing him with ryan, had exactly the same total score! Ryan Difficulty 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 28.9 Artistic 5.8 6 6 5.8 5.8 29.4 Total 58.3 Vasek Difficulty 5.6 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.8 29 Artistic 5.7 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 29.3 Total 58.3 We all know Ryan went dropless and was as usual, as close to perfect as possible, and legitimatly "defended" the title. Many still beleive that though he lost tecnically (which he didn't) he is still No.1. But then there was Vasek who did everything needed to win, almost flawless, one drop, but I am willing to forgive a drop if I see three quadless at the end of a routine. My instincts told me it was ryan, the scoreboard told me it was Vasek but in the end it was a draw, they're total scores were in fact, the same. And they should be both known as World Champions in Open Freestyle, I think it adds a symbolic touch representing the reletivly non-competitive nature of footbag. Dan Ednie From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 11:58:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id LAA26825 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:58:09 -0700 From: "Ted Huff" Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.4f.21fb0dc4 (4362); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:09:55 EDT Subject: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10572 --part1_4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org First of all, I'd like to state that as a non-freestyler, but as a footbag fan, game and sport co-founder, and sponsor, I saw it !! Worlds freestyle was fantastic, and Tu Vu, Tim Kelly, Eric Wulff, Steve Goldberg, and all the judges, all the B.A.F.L. players & volunteers deserve big thanks for putting this together. It was awesome. The new movie, Where The Ripwalk Ends is great ! Buy it ! And, buy Tricks of the Trade II next month !! But, I suggest that any freestyler reading this, and was at finals, speak up with their own opinion of the scoring, and the outcome, otherwise you will face the consequences of wondering if the system allows for tainted results in the future. Or tainted judging. Players, such as Ryan Mulroney and Peter Irish, and Vasek Klouda, as examples, deserve fair scoring . So do the sponsors and fans. I don't think that Ryan Mulroney lost in defending his title, but I also feel that Vasek was declared the winner, so..... so be it. Congratulations to the new Jedi !! He was HUGE fantastic, but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that were biased before the finals started, based on hype. If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean something more than an afterthought to the other scoring used, then something is wrong. You might as well let the players judge themselves, as I think that what was seen was believed better than what was written on finals night. I'm just a fan and supporter of the sport, and I know plenty that attended feel the same way. That's what is sad. 2 of the best ever routines done in 1 night, but .................... who really won ? Did the sport, that you are a part of, win? Speak up, because tournament freestyle is great, and I certainly encourage all freestylers to make their sport better ! Support the IFPA. Get involved in your own sport ! Theo , The Instigator FootbagHallofFame@footbag.org --part1_4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53_boundary-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 12:23:31 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA27894 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:23:31 -0700 Received: from Tina (cs24243230-212.austin.rr.com [24.243.230.212]) by sm14.texas.rr.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g7HJ76ul027118; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:07:06 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01c24621$02241760$b47ba8c0@Tina> Reply-To: "Tina Lewis" From: "Tina Lewis" To: References: <4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53@aol.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:05:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, As a non-freestyler but huge fan I found the commentary at Flipsider.com very helpful in understanding the results and after taking a look at the the videos of the performances that Eli has posted - it looked even closer than I remember it at the time. Both are amazing - I'm glad I didn't have to judge! Flipsider.com is a great site! Thanks to Eli. Tina. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Aug 17 12:42:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA28672 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:42:32 -0700 Received: from pd4mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.214]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H10005BT5RIJ9@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.6 (built Apr 26 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1000DO75RIOX@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-70-216-74.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.216.74]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H10003GA5RHGR@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:20:32 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback X-Sender: akeh@shawmail To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817115846.00a31190@shawmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted Huff Wrote: >>but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that were biased before >>the finals started, based on hype. If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 >>ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean something more than an afterthought to the other >>scoring used, then something is wrong. You might as well let the players >>judge themselves, WHOA!!!! Hold on a second there, Ted. First of all, Adds really don't mean *anything*. Yes, Ryan had more adds, but Vasek's routine was technically superior from a *uniques* standpoint and from a risk standpoint. Stringing 3 5's together towards the end of a routine is nothing short of phenominal. The *only* reason Ryan would have won was because his *presentation* card was better. This "he had more adds" talk is useless. The judges did an outstanding job!!! When you keep in mind how little time was involved in making the decision, I believe no one has a right to say that they were "wrong". They did the best they could under extreme pressure. I think calling 5 *professional, experienced and intelligent* judges "biased... based on hype" is completely inaccurate and somewhat libelous. Ted, you stated that you "are just a fan and supporter".... what kind of support is this? Are you qualified to judge? Could you have made a "fair" call in under two minutes? Seriously, and with all due respect Ted, get real !!! I think you owe those judges an apology. For now, Allan H. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:42:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA29749 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:42:56 -0700 From: "Kenny Shults" Received: from KenShults@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.197.b982bc1 (4410); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <197.b982bc1.2a9021a6@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:01:10 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: Thehuff1@aol.com CC: freestyle@footbag.org, allan@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_197.b982bc1.2a9021a6_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 534 --part1_197.b982bc1.2a9021a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted, Ted, Ted, my friend, you missed the mark by quite a ways on this one. While I happen to agree that Ryan should have won, my reasons have almost nothing to do with any of your points. Total Adds is almost meaningless as a guage of the risk the player took. Average Adds per trick is better but still doesn't mean much. The most important things that contribute to the real difficulty in a routine are the number of really hard tricks like 5-Adds the player does, how they are linked in combinations and how many unique tricks the player does. The more different tricks, the harder it is. I could go out and rack up 400 Adds or more doing nothing but Around the Worlds and Clippers. Doing tricks like this would be virtually zero risk but I would have a lot of total Adds. This is an exaggeration of the comparison between Ryan and Vasek but I want to point out why Total Adds don't mean much. Vasek did seven 5-Add tricks with three of those in a row at the end of his routine. Ryan did three 5-Add tricks with none of them being in a row or even in combination with a 4-Add trick. Vasek also did dramatically more unique 4-Add+ tricks than Ryan. Vasek was superior in his spinning combinations, doing multi-spin combos in both directions mixing both 3-Add and 4-Add spinning tricks together in both directions. Ryan spun much less and I think, only in one direction. Now on the other side of the argument, Vasek's juggle series was very short and kind of shaky. Ryan's juggling was much better. Ryan's flyers were much better than Vasek who was very uncomfortable with his flyers. Ryan did about 15 more tricks in two minutes than Vasek. That is a lot and deserves some credit. I think you're giving it more than it's due however because it was one of the things flashed on the screen. One of the reasons it's included on the results screen is that it is an objective element that can be counted in real time very easily. The same is true of Adds. All of the things I've listed above are things that we rely on a panel of experienced judges to be able to see. I can understand that it is difficult for the audience to tell the difference in relative difficulty between Ryan and Vasek since both players are hitting really big tricks. That is the judges' job and I can tell you that it was a very difficult one that was influenced only by the fact that both players did such an awesome job and not by any hype or personal bias. The main reason I believe Ryan should have won is that Vasek dropped a very easy trick and the footbag went quite a distance away from him and it was a major disruption in his routine that, in my mind, outweighed the fact that he had an advantage on the technical side. I also think Ryan has a smoother more confident style that added additional margin to his artistic advantage in my opinion. The opinion of the judges however was that, by the narrowest margin ever, Vasek's routine was better. I would have to agree with Allan that you came down way too hard on the judges and that your assumptions regarding bias and hype were just not accurate. I think these judges did a great job under very difficult circumstances and they should be congratulated for having the courage to make a very difficult and potentially unpopular decision. They certainly don't deserve to be publicly disparaged. I believe it is fine to disagree with the result, in fact I disagree with it. But just because I disagree with it or you disagree with it, doesn't mean it's not correct. The most qualified panel of judges ever assembled for a Freestyle final judged it the way they saw it and I am very comfortable that the basis of their decision was sound and fair to all competitors. As a sponsor, fan and ardent supporter of footbag, I applaud the judges for their outstanding effort and the event organizers for a phenomenal event. I think we are extraordinarily fortunate to have witnessed two of the greatest performances in Freestyle history one right after the other and I can't wait to see what these guys come up with next year in Prague! Sincerely, Kenny Shults 6-time Singles Freestyle World Champion 2002 Freestyle Finals Add Counter --part1_197.b982bc1.2a9021a6_boundary-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:49:07 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30042 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:49:07 -0700 Received: from user-2ivebga.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.46.10] helo=0017407414) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17gGno-0000ES-00 for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:32:33 -0700 Message-ID: <003501c24668$116574c0$0a2ef7a5@0017407414> Reply-To: "Josh Penney" From: "Josh Penney" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:33:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I favor no one in the recent competition. I was not there, so I have no opinion of "who was better". This said: "Ted Huff" said: > >If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 ADDS & 1 Drop don't >mean something more than an afterthought to the other scoring used, then >something is wrong. > In short; adds are subjective, and so is difficulty. This is the reason these measurements are used as an "afterthought." In brief: The drop, perhaps means something, but the rest- I wouldn't be so sure. 'Adds,' you will recall, reflect "add categories" which are neither exclusive nor exhaustive regarding "difficulty." There are plenty of high-difficulty, low-add moves, and vice versa; therefore 'Adds' are good to determine a general sense of "difficulty" but cannot be used as an objective tool- especially in this case. The objective of this sport is not easily quantifiable, like blazing a ball into a hoop or crossing a finish line. It is as individual to each player as the players are to themselves and each other. These different physiological advantages and disadvantages for each player [based on a trizillion factors] make for a beautiful dance, a wonderful discipline, and an unprecedented art form outside the martial arts. It does not as easily become a list of modifiers, hash marks in boxes, carry-the-ones, or other such nonsense. That is why changes have been made to attempt to accommodate a basic acceptance of this understanding. less yakkin more hackin. JP From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:53:11 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30203 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:11 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:21:36 -0700 Received: from 63.60.196.53 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:21:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.60.196.53] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:21:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 05:21:36.0566 (UTC) FILETIME=[1FA38D60:01C24677] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, Basing the win on adds is ridiculous! If someone got up and did 400 toe stalls without a drop, should they win? Having watched the videos I thought Vasek was the best. It was close but he pulled off beter moves with more variety. I think the penalty for a drop should maybe be little higher but since it isn't, Vasek is a fair winner! Jeremy From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:53:44 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30214 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:09:29 -0700 Received: from 210.50.57.125 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:09:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.50.57.125] From: "Brendan Erskine" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] China laver modifications Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:09:29 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 10:09:29.0576 (UTC) FILETIME=[5727B680:01C2469F] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Just a quick question. I currently use millenium lavers although they're reaching the end of their life. When modifying these shoes, I had no trouble removing the padding from the inside of the shoe. However, i'm having great difficulty removing this padding from my new 'china laver' shoes. Is it even possible to remove the inner padding from the china lavers? Thanks, Brendan From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:53:55 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30222 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:55 -0700 Message-Id: <200208181953.MAA30222@llic.net> Received: from [209.48.222.22] by web11508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:17:20 PDT Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:17:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <200208172226.PAA32753@llic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > First of all, I'd like to state that as a > non-freestyler, but as a footbag > fan, game and sport co-founder, and sponsor, I saw > it !! Hey Ted. I said I'd get back to you after I previewed the jduges tabulations when you posted your opinions on the open footbag list serve. I'm sorry you couldn't wait. What you saw was 10 greast athletes each contriuting what they could to our sport in the Worlds Freestyle Final Event. What you didn't see was what the judges declared to be the greatest acheivement from that night for the sport. And as I said in my response on the other list, I can't take criticisms of the judges assigned the very difficult task of judging finals freestyle routines lightly. Please, no more slandering of the expert panel of judges, Ted. Their bias, if they demonstrated any bias, is not against any player, nor for any player. If they have a bias its for what is new, exciting, and beyond their expected realm of performance for worlds routines, and it was Vasik who gave them that. Undeniably. Please read on. Adds and add/contact ratio are incapable of describing the difficult nature of Vasiks routine. Adds and ratio only determine the total and avarage elements of difficulty (per trick for ratio), but it does not take into account linking difficulty, nor the variety of the moves hit per level of difficulty. This is what the judges saw, and what the judges rewarded- Vasik blew away previous years efforts in this direction. To them , this was much more significant than a single drop. If this is controversial, so be it, but please do not confuse this controversy with the judges determination as being controversial. They judged well, fairly and justifiably so. This controversy has existed forever in the life of judged artistic performances- its nature is the problem of rewarding technical prowess or showmanship. Where is Dr. Harley when you need him? Looking at the routines superificially my inclination is that Ryan hit the more professional looking routine. But in a developing sport, is it merely the superficial professional qualities that ought to be considered? Looking at it with the eyes of the judges, and the analysts that have thoroughly picked apart every detail of the routines over this past week, and seeing the routines in the context of freestyle in its entirety over the past two decades, I have to commend the judges for their realizations. Vasik has taken technical prowess in routine performance to a new level- in much, if not exactly, the same way Ryan did in previous years. The ability to see this development might require expert knowledge, and this year a system of judging was used that caters better to what the experts can see directly than the standard judging system used in previous years was capable of (side note: I think this means the older system needs tuning as a result of, not replacement by, this current system). Looking at it another way, how many times did Ryan get 2nd place in the past, when many people felt he ought to have gotten first? ( Sorry Ryan, I see the nature of your disappointment throughout the years, this one included. Much thanks for innovating, regulating, and inspiring. The future of the sport owes you much.) I heard grumblings about how Ryan should have won for each of his three years competing in Open before he won it in 2000. I will risk saying it was the standard worlds judging system not accounting for Ryans breakthroughs in routine performance that prevented him being seen as a winner in the same manner Vasik was decalred to be winner this year. (>breathe<) Additionally, ts those same breakthroughs from Ryan that have contributed to the awesome Czech Republic ownership of a new age of freestyle skills. You can see Ryan's innovation in all the Czech performances. You might even be able to swap the music. I think the controversy is over. Ryan presented a great routine. He also inspired the new wave of incredible players to reach the heights they are at. Nothing that happened at this world championship cheapens the effotts or accomplishments of Ryan Mulroney. If anything they show how great he is more than anything that has happened before now, including his titles. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 12:57:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id MAA30370 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:57:42 -0700 Received: from laxerone@netscape.net by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id z.52.3e53db7 (16225); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.net (mow-m21.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.137]) by air-in02.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILININ21-0818092321; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:23:21 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:22:59 -0400 From: "Jan Zimmermann" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Message-ID: <54F89A09.33C788F6.0078AB1E@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by llic.net id GAA19445 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi All, I must say that I agree with Allans reproach of Ted's posting, although I think we should keep a discussion like this objective and not get personal. I have watched the routines briefly and I must say my first impression is that vasek was marginally better. More variety, difficult moves and combos and he took a lot more risks. Also I don't think their presentation was much different. You can see that Vasek oriented himself at Ryan with the type of music and style of routine. What beats me every time (and maybe this is a discussion we have to hold) is how the presentation scores are derived. How can a player like Ryan (who is an extremely technical player) get better presentation scores than technical scores? How come that most presentation score match the technical scores of the players (only exception at first glance: Alex Zerbe)? What is presentation? Well obviously, playing to the beat and having a choreographed routine is one aspect, but in my opinion that's only about half of it. I miss the show elements, the interaction with the audience, all that stuff. And seriously, is it necessary to hit over 300 adds and 120 contacts to show that you are a good freestyler? wouldn't 200 adds and 70 contacts be enough? Would't it be nicer to give the players the possibility to put more show elements in their routine without punishing them because they loose time and therefore adds? This would only work if we review our way of judging presentation. As a ! basis for discussion, I for instance would have judged both ryan and vasek a near perfect 6.0 on the technical part. On presentation however both would score around 4 on my pad. Remembering last years worlds and Lon Smiths routine I would say that with maybe one or two less drops (I think he had about 3 or 4)he could stand a chance of beating them because his presentation was much better although he might have had less contacts and therefore less adds (his style is a lot slower after all, which doesn't mean at all that he is a worse freestyler). OK that is my opinion, just wanted to state it publicly once again:) Jan P.S. That I am using specific names in my arguments is not meant in any way disrespectfully to anyone, I just need to use you guys as examples to get my point across. Allan Haggett wrote: >Ted Huff Wrote: >>>but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that were biased before >>the finals started, based on hype. If 380 ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 >>ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean something more than an afterthought to the other >>scoring used, then something is wrong. You might as well let the players >>judge themselves, > >WHOA!!!! Hold on a second there, Ted. >First of all, Adds really don't mean *anything*. Yes, Ryan had more adds, but Vasek's routine was technically superior from a *uniques* standpoint and from a risk standpoint. Stringing 3 5's together towards the end of a routine is nothing short of phenominal. The *only* reason Ryan would have won was because his *presentation* card was better. This "he had more adds" talk is useless.>Ted, you stated that you "are just a fan and supporter".... what kind of support is this? Are you qualified to judge? Could you have made a "fair" call in under two minutes? Seriously, and with all due respect Ted, get real !!! I think you owe those judges an apology. >For now, >Allan H. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 13:02:30 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30558 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:02:30 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1/SAS.05) id g7HMUnZ23994; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alessandre S. Naro" Message-Id: <200208172230.g7HMUnZ23994@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: Thehuff1@aol.com (Ted Huff) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <4f.21fb0dc4.2a8eee53@aol.com> from "Ted Huff" at Aug 16, 2002 08:09:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org First off, a big thanks to Eli and anyone else involved at flipsider for making the videos freely available so soon after Worlds. You're awesome. Secondly, I am curious if anyone can answer this question: What would the standings have been under the old system? I think this is an important question that I have not seen addressed here on the list-serv. Having only seen the three videos that are currently available at flipsider, I think the judges did a great job. Several of the comments have focused on Vasek's "drop". Having watched the routine, I don't think the drop was a big deal. If I was asked to subjectively judge that routine, the drop would hardly register in my evaluation, cause it came at a harmless moment in his routine, off a minor toe catch attempt. I think this is something the new system was created to provide; the human ability to dynamically assign relative values to otherwise static numbers. In my view, it succeded admirably at this. Instead, what registered from Vasek's routine was blurry whirl, whirling swirl, scorpion tail, a lot of uniques, both on the front-side and back-side, interesting flyers, both side spins sealed off with mobius, and a monster big 3 apex that slam dunked the matter. To me it was a very dynamic and stimulating routine. As for Ryan's routine, he didn't stop. It's nuts, he goes fast, complex, and doesn't pause. Even the various elements of his routine, like flyers and unusuals, all are done quickly. It's amazing. He was also better co-ordinated to the music than Vasek was, something that people so far have seemed to agree on as well. I think at this point, both routines are equal in merit. To decide a winner, you have to scrutinize further. You have to achieve an even finer level of granularity. And having watched both routines, I personally would grudgingly penalize Ryan for having a slightly repetitive feel in his routine, exemplified by numerous blurry set's off his left clipper, frequently into ripwalks. While this contributed to his higer add count, it also contributed to the unbalanced tally in unique moves that Eli provided in an earlier e-mail. Honestly, I really don't think the judges could have gone wrong with their final decision either way. And I don't think they did either. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 13:02:46 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30578 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:02:46 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:54:37 -0700 Received: from 210.49.190.48 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:54:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.49.190.48] From: "Dan Ednie" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds Draw Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:54:36 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Aug 2002 23:54:37.0243 (UTC) FILETIME=[719C70B0:01C24649] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry everyone, didn't mean to get anyone's hopes up I read the scores from the end of the flipsider videos, not from Eric's site. This coupled with my wanting for ryan to win must have blurred my vision. thanks Bob for that, But let's just make it a draw anyway Just Kidding Perhaps though if there were a poll as to who won, that might take the edge off some of Ryan's fan's despair. Then again it could only act to inflame the pain. Dan Ednie >From: "Bob Glasser" >To: ednie@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds Draw >Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:51:05 -0400 > > >i think you got vasek's score wrong. if you go to eric wulf's site he has >them listed. they are as follows > >difficulty- 5.6 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 > >you can go here and check it out > >http://www.footbag.org/worlds2002/resultsFreeFinalSin.html > > > > Vasek > >Difficulty 5.6 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.8 29 > >Artistic 5.7 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 29.3 > >Total 58.3 > > > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 13:03:32 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id NAA30629 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:03:32 -0700 Message-Id: <200208182003.NAA30629@llic.net> Received: from [209.48.222.22] by web11505.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:07:55 PDT Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:07:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Vincent Bradley" Reply-To: procrastan8r@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Worlds Draw To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <200208172226.PAA32753@llic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Dan, thats a pretty keen obseravtion about the scores totals, but this system actually doesn't work out that way. Basically, since the system isn't actually quantifying anything, except on a per judge basis by each judge on their own criteria, you are comparing scores based on different ideologies. Its that apple and oranges thing. Might both be fruit, but otherwise they are fairly incomparable. It is a nice irony that the scores work out that way, but each judge used their own numbering system. They could have come up with the same results and used wildly different scales for their scoring. The more i try and exmplain it, however, the more i marvel at your observation... thanks dan. -vince From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 15:11:14 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id PAA02812 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 15:11:14 -0700 Received: (qmail 15802 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2002 00:13:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Aug 2002 00:13:30 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: Subject: [freestyle] World Championship Results - Open Singles Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:07:27 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, I want to make sure you all know that I fully understand there is a more than average controversial feeling surrounding the final results with regards to 1st and 2nd place in open singles freestyle at WFC - 2002. As freestyle director I take this seriously. Myself and the freestyle staff are looking into this closely and will report back in more detail some time in the next couple of days. Without going into detail however, I can tell you all right now that I have already found enough hard evidence to support the FACT that the judges did an OUTSTANDING job on finals night. Therefore, I ask that you please respect the judges and the players and post messages thoughtfully. It is only the fault of the players that this was an extremely tough decision for the judges to make. The players, particularly Vasek and Ryan, stepped up BIG TIME and at just the right time. Anyone who was there knows that. Wow! This was probably the greatest fight for first place in singles freestyle history. The judges stepped it up right along with the players and made a very tough decision. Evidence shows they did so with care and sound reasoning. I applaud them for that and encourage you too also. That is not to say that I believe talk or debate over who you think won or got second should cease and desist. Not now and not even after I post evidence do I expect or want that. But I ask that you not accuse or assume mis-conduct simply because judges did not see it they way you may have. Again, the players made it tough to call... not the judges. And, the close call was represented in the judges scores and is posted for everyone to see. I'll post further detail in the next couple days. Thanks for you concern. Eric Wulff co-Executive Producer Director of Freestyle World Footbag Championships - 2002 (415) 681-5729 From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Aug 18 22:56:27 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA22663 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:56:27 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:31:24 -0700 Received: from 68.20.181.51 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 05:31:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.20.181.51] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:31:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2002 05:31:24.0841 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8B0F190:01C24741] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have no comment on the winner of the routines--I was not there. I saw the videos--UNBELIEVABLE PERFORMANCES. Both are remarkable. I have this to say, drops are big, and if they are not right now in the current judging system, they should be. Look at... Martial arts and kata... You can't stumble in the midst of executing a move and win. Gymnastics and balance beam... You can't fall off the beam and win. Figure skating... Nope, falls not allowed here. Skateboarding... Nope. In sports where balance and physical abilities to maintain an activity while demonstrating that balance, you can not lose control (i.e., stumble, fall, drop, etc.). Footbag is one of those sports. Ian Dubman From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 00:49:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id AAA26529 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:49:24 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:38:15 -0700 Received: from 63.105.21.223 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 07:38:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.105.21.223] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 07:38:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2002 07:38:15.0216 (UTC) FILETIME=[60D40300:01C24753] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted Wrote: >[Vasek] was HUGE fantastic, but I don't think he won, except via a group of >judges that were biased before the finals started, based on hype. Since I was sitting at the judging table I'd like to think I had a pretty good look at both routines. I honestly thought Ryan would win, but I also felt it could have gone either way. Vasek's routine was more difficult, Ryan's routine was better choreographed (of course that's only one element of presentation). I guess all I really want to say is that it could have gone either way, and for a judging system that in computer terms is still probably about v0.7 I'd say it worked pretty well. Also just as an aside, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the only time a non-BAP member has made it to the top 4 since it's formation (Ryan came close in 97'). -Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:30:54 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA25887 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:30:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 11600 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2002 18:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail14.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Aug 2002 18:56:08 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "Jan Zimmermann" , Subject: RE: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:50:06 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <54F89A09.33C788F6.0078AB1E@netscape.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I am a bit surprised at your review of the artistic impression of Ryan and Vasek. Their performances brought tears to peoples eyes, goose bumps to many, and everyone to their feet. It was not the technical aspects that brought forth such emotional reactions. I am a person who holds presentation high and it is my opinion that Ryan Mulroney presented... artistically... perhaps the greatest routine in freestyle history. He hit things on the beat in so many instances it is awe inspiring. When the music changed pace... he changed pace. Did you not see his blurry and stepping knee bumps exactly to the music? How about his change to nice little flyer sequence during the happy go lucky part of the music? How about the dramatic juggle at the finish that went right along with the drama of the music? New BAP name... Ryan the "Maestro" Mulroney. Also, even if Ryan's routine was more impressive artistically... Vasek's was amazing also. Although not quite on the same level. But, did you see Vasek's spinning sequence?... on both sides... back to back... right along with the music. Yes, these are shredding style freestylers but they are also choreography masters. They do not need to stop their styling and directly engage the crowd with eye contact. They invite the viewer... draw them even... right into their performance. The crowd knew when and when to react or applaud or simply observe in stunned silence. Different freestylers have different ways of presenting their art. All are well appreciated if done to perfection. 50 contacts and 150 adds will get just as much respect, in my book... artistically, when done well as will 130 contacts and 400 adds. Artistic impression has little to do with speed or difficulty or number of moves. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Jan Zimmermann > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 6:23 AM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback > > > Hi All, > > I must say that I agree with Allans reproach of Ted's posting, > although I think we should keep a discussion like this objective > and not get personal. > > I have watched the routines briefly and I must say my first > impression is that vasek was marginally better. More variety, > difficult moves and combos and he took a lot more risks. Also I > don't think their presentation was much different. You can see > that Vasek oriented himself at Ryan with the type of music and > style of routine. > > What beats me every time (and maybe this is a discussion we have > to hold) is how the presentation scores are derived. How can a > player like Ryan (who is an extremely technical player) get > better presentation scores than technical scores? How come that > most presentation score match the technical scores of the players > (only exception at first glance: Alex Zerbe)? What is > presentation? Well obviously, playing to the beat and having a > choreographed routine is one aspect, but in my opinion that's > only about half of it. I miss the show elements, the interaction > with the audience, all that stuff. And seriously, is it necessary > to hit over 300 adds and 120 contacts to show that you are a good > freestyler? wouldn't 200 adds and 70 contacts be enough? Would't > it be nicer to give the players the possibility to put more show > elements in their routine without punishing them because they > loose time and therefore adds? This would only work if we review > our way of judging presentation. As a ! > basis for discussion, I for instance would have judged both ryan > and vasek a near perfect 6.0 on the technical part. On > presentation however both would score around 4 on my pad. > Remembering last years worlds and Lon Smiths routine I would say > that with maybe one or two less drops (I think he had about 3 or > 4)he could stand a chance of beating them because his > presentation was much better although he might have had less > contacts and therefore less adds (his style is a lot slower after > all, which doesn't mean at all that he is a worse freestyler). > > OK that is my opinion, just wanted to state it publicly once again:) > > Jan > > P.S. That I am using specific names in my arguments is not meant > in any way disrespectfully to anyone, I just need to use you guys > as examples to get my point across. > > Allan Haggett wrote: > > >Ted Huff Wrote: > >>>but I don't think he won, except via a group of judges that > were biased before >>the finals started, based on hype. If 380 > ADDS and NO Drops, versus 316 >>ADDS & 1 Drop don't mean > something more than an afterthought to the other >>scoring used, > then something is wrong. You might as well let the players > >>judge themselves, > > > >WHOA!!!! Hold on a second there, Ted. > >First of all, Adds really don't mean *anything*. Yes, Ryan had > more adds, but Vasek's routine was technically superior from a > *uniques* standpoint and from a risk standpoint. Stringing 3 5's > together towards the end of a routine is nothing short of > phenominal. The *only* reason Ryan would have won was because his > *presentation* card was better. This "he had more adds" talk is > useless.>Ted, you stated that you "are just a fan and > supporter".... what kind of support is this? Are you qualified to > judge? Could you have made a "fair" call in under two minutes? > Seriously, and with all due respect Ted, get real !!! I think you > owe those judges an apology. > >For now, > >Allan H. > > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:31:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA25910 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:31:42 -0700 Received: by bkb01-ims-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:26:55 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA88061B7CDA@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Philly X-Games recap Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:26:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all. Back at work after a long weekend of shredding at the X-Games. Pretty sore and wishing I was at the games again today, but alas, I must "work" (or email the freestyle list). Anyhow, we had a really great time. Kick Bag footbags (www.kickbag.com) sponsored our team of freestylers by giving us tons and tons of water and by generally just being really really cool people. Can't thank them enough. Kenny Shuyler was awesome too -- He secured scheduled demo times for us and had a TV crew onsite to film our demo during day 1... He showed his XTreme Footbag skills off while the rest of our group put together a pretty nice shred circle. Again, super nice guy. Had a blast getting to hang with everyone from Kick Bag and with Kenny and his friends. Anyhow, here are highlights and information... This info only includes stuff that I saw (I was only there Saturday and Sunday, but the games are a week long) - The X-Games drew about 25,000 spectators on both Saturday and again on Sunday. We were *highly* visible. - On Saturday, Ellis Piltz, Myself, Kaiser Ahmad, Gordon Scott Bevier, Bob Green, Jonathan Schneider, and Jake Milofsky (I don't think I forgot anyone) started shredding around lunch time. We were playing between the bike street course and the skating street course. There were two huge sets of bleachers towering above us and a huge crowd of people around us. I kid you not that the X-Games provided the *perfect* crowd to enjoy our shred. At any given time there were hundreds (thousands?) of people around... and many of those people were very interested in watching us play. We got lots of questions along the lines of "Is this the next X-Game?", "Do you guys play soccer?", "Can you Irish dance?" (at which point Ellis pulled off a few nice tricks with middle fingers extended, but that's another story) etc. I saw Ellis and Scott giving their autographs to a few younger kids, and news crews were right on top of us getting some footage. Besides the temperature (about 105 degrees all weekend long without any shade) there's not much bad you can say about Saturday... Well, except for the X-Games employee that told us we needed to move from one shred spot because "we were too good and drawing too large of a crowd". Can we help it that we're superstars? :) - On Sunday, much of the same shred crew as above showed up. Kenny Shults, Brad Kaplan, and Dave Sanchez also made it out. We began the day doing a demo for friends of Kick Bag. We had a great camera angle with the huge X-Games rock climbing wall right behind us. It was really hot, but we all managed to pull out some worthy tricks for the camera. Ellis and Jonathan came up particularly big during this portion of the day. A little bit after this, once Kenny Shults had arrived, we moved over near the bleachers again, but found it too packed to get in front of the crowds as Dave Mirra was going nuts on the bike course. The stands were packed to capacity and we were shredding behind them. Plenty of people watching us. Then, the bike event ended, and the bleachers emptied. Literally 3,000+ people poured out of the stands directly into our circle. Kenny of course thought this to be good motivation to really really really rip it up. I'm still sore from being the next player in the circle after him. He was just cruising to 20+ contacts every time.. .spinning whirls, ps whirls, ripwalking and blurring and atomic.. double dexes.. He was posessed. Needless to say the crowd was thrilled. People were cheering after every run. It was awesome. Eventually we got tired and chilled out for awhile. Ellis introduced me to a new shred shoe that I'm going to try out.. It's the Adidas LM 3. The benefits of Milleniums but better catching surfaces and better support. The verdict is still not in on the shoes, but Ellis played in them all weekend and I didn't notice him doing anything but busting huge tricks. So, if you're in the market, this might be a good option for you. Anyhow, later on we finally found some shade and started up yet another circle. Again, we went from starting unnoticed to being surrounded by an ever changing group of interested onlookers. It got to the point where so many kids were joining the circle, that shredders just weren't shredding anymore. They were teaching! Not the most fun for a shredder, but awesome for the game. - OK, I've got to wrap this up shortly.. I really do have to work. But, so far, I've had a bunch of coworkers and friends report they've seen us on TV. WB17 (warner brothers I think) and Fox Sports Net both aired footbag segments in their coverage of the games. So we stole a little spotlight. Overall, I haven't had this much fun too many times before. Later. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:34:09 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA26008 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:34:09 -0700 Received: (qmail 24958 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2002 20:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Aug 2002 20:20:57 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "Ian Dubman" , Subject: RE: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:14:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is a good point and these are good sports to make comparisons too. However, in gymnastics you CAN fall of balance beam and still win. In ice skating you CAN fall down on the ice and still come out in first. There is absolutely no rule regarding this. It is more unlikely that you will come out in first pace if "screw up" one trick because far fewer tricks are attempted compared to a footbag freestyle routine. Therefore, mistakes such as these stand out more as obvious and significant blunders ... as they should. There is yet to be a sport similar enough to footbag freestyle to which we can reliably analogize to in this regard. I was a gymnast in high school and college and also a diver and diving coach for high school. I know from experience that in an average gymnastics routine, regardless of the event, at most... only about 1 fifth as many tricks are performed as in a footbag freestyle routine. From observing, it seems much the same in skate boarding, ice skating, surfing and other sports where the performer is "showing off" moves to be judged by a panel of "experts". Drops need be weighted and weighted heavily in my opinion. Some drops are worse than others and there needs to be some freedom for a judge to make a judgment call on how much a drop weighs in the over-all score. But, I think we need to collectively understand... a fall on the ice or a fall from a apparatus in gymnastics is more disruptive and therefore more damaging to said performance relative to a drop in a freestyle routine which contains significantly more risk of error. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Ian Dubman > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:31 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback > > > > I have no comment on the winner of the routines--I was not there. > I saw the > videos--UNBELIEVABLE PERFORMANCES. Both are remarkable. > I have this to say, drops are big, and if they are not right now in the > current judging system, they should be. > > Look at... > Martial arts and kata... You can't stumble in the midst of > executing a move > and win. > > Gymnastics and balance beam... You can't fall off the beam and win. > > Figure skating... Nope, falls not allowed here. > > Skateboarding... Nope. > > In sports where balance and physical abilities to maintain an > activity while > demonstrating that balance, you can not lose control (i.e., > stumble, fall, > drop, etc.). > > Footbag is one of those sports. > > Ian Dubman > > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:36:44 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA26128 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:36:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:39:20 -0700 Received: from 24.26.174.140 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:39:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.26.174.140] From: "Jason Buzby" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Promotion Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:39:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2002 20:39:20.0661 (UTC) FILETIME=[7ECF6850:01C247C0] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey list, I was skippin through the channles on tv the other day and came across a show called Project Detention. DC shoes is one of the sponsors. It is a show which is made up of segments(3-4 mins) of an action/alternative sport that where sent in to the show. I thought about it and said why not send in a segment on footbag... it would help the sport and be really awsome. I'm not in any position to do this though for the reason that i have no access to a camera and/or editing equipment. you can check out the show and the details that go with it and getting a segment on there at http://www.dcshoes.com/main.asp and click on project detention. I figured i would let the footbag world know about this and maybe someone that produces videos or something may want to check this out. the show airs on fox sports net and ex tv. Do what you will with this info also there is another show bluetorch which is another alt sport type show which i could see footbag on if someone wants to check that out and maybe contact them you can check that out at http://www.bluetorch.com . thats it for now. I love the sport and i am just tryin to help it out by gettin my ideas into the hands in which something may get done with them because I am in no position to do any of this unfortunately. thanks for you time, Jason Buzby From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 14:42:12 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id OAA26364 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:42:12 -0700 From: "Uve Poom" Received: by data.zone.ee (Postfix, from userid 65534) id AE41D2A8103; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:50:32 +0300 (EEST) To: "Ian Dubman" Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Reply-To: uvepoom@footbag.ee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--=_8bf33416cf3c772c5479d37b7153cd61" Message-Id: <20020819165032.AE41D2A8103@data.zone.ee> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:50:32 +0300 (EEST) ----=_8bf33416cf3c772c5479d37b7153cd61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ian Dubman wrote... > In sports where balance and physical abilities to maintain an > activity while > demonstrating that balance, you can not lose control (i.e., > stumble, fall, > drop, etc.). > Footbag is one of those sports. Footbag is becoming one of those sports. Uve Poom Estonia/Denmark ----=_8bf33416cf3c772c5479d37b7153cd61-- From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 16:34:17 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA31430 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:34:17 -0700 Received: from footbaga1hc7od [216.232.193.67] by FootbagCanada.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A43E6B902F8; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:09:02 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Chard Cook" To: Subject: [freestyle] 15th Annual Vancouver Open August 24-25, 2002 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:10:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 1081 X-Originating-IP: [24.69.255.205] X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2002 20:27:48.0272 (UTC) FILETIME=[38763B00:01C2449A] Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org MODERATOR'S NOTE: If you are subscribed to the footbag list as well, you will get two copies of this message. Sorry for the cross-post. Newbie Moderator Technical Difficulties ;-) *********ATTENTION WE NEED MORE NETS*********** can anyone bring nets with them? please contact me asap. thanks:-) *********ATTENTION WE NEED MORE NETS*********** 15th Annual Vancouver Open ­ Jericho Beach Park East August 24-25, 2002 http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1021267082 Come One - Come All -- to the 15th Annual Vancouver Open! We will be holding Singles Net, Doubles Net, Golf and Freestyle competition. 4-Squares will be chalked all weekend and Consecutives will be offered for the newbies. If enough people show up we will have intermediate and/or novice divisions. NET/GOLF/FREESTYLE Entry Fees: $30 for Open/Intermediate with tournament shirt $20 for Open/Intermediate w/o shirt $5 for Novice only(includes KFA membership for one year) $15 for shirt only $10 for IFPA registration (optional see Chard) This is NOT an IFPA Sanctioned event. But we will be signing up anyone interested in joining the IFPA. The fee is $10 and is valid for one year. As an IFPA member, your results will be recorded from any IFPA sanctioned events you enter (such as Worlds, European Masters, US Open, etc.) and used to determine your worldwide ranking. More importantly, you're also supporting the IFPA towards its goals of making Footbag a more recognized and legitimate sport. If there is not enough registrants for Novice there will be net courts available for pick-up games. If there are enough registrants, it may be possible to run the Intermediate or Women's categories, in singles or doubles. If there are not enough, then welcome to Open! Registration will be held from approx. 7pm to 9pm at the Sunset Grill Friday eve (Yew St. & York in Kitsilano - directly south of Kits Beach up the hill). We'd like to register ALL or as many as possible that night. Restaurant on Friday August 23rd. Late registration will be held on site at Jericho Beach Park East from 8am to 9am on Saturday August 24th and Sunday August 25th. SCHEDULE OF EVENTS Friday August 23rd 5:00pm - until... Pick up net and shred at Kits Beach 7:00pm - 9:00pm Registration at the Sunset Grill Restaurant (Yew St. & York in Kitsilano - directly south of Kits Beach up the hill) Saturday August 24th 8 ­ 9am Late Registration at site (Jericho Beach Park East) 9 ­ 6pm Singles Net 12- 2pm Consecutives 2 - 3pm Freestyle routine 1st round 3 - ?pm Freestyle Shred 30 (and maybe Big Trick/Sick 3) Later Evening Social and potluck Sunday August 25th 8 ­ 9am Late Doubles Registration at site 9 ­ 3pm Doubles Net 1 ­ 6pm Golf 12- 2pm Consecutives 2 - 3pm Freestyle routine Final round 3 - ?pm Freestyle Shred 30 (and maybe Big Trick/Sick 3) 3-6pm Finals Matches/Awards (time approx.) ******* As always, the schedule is subject to change: contact us if you have questions. NOTE**Freestyle depends on number of people, bring your shred and a friend's shred too! SPECIAL MESSAGE FOR FREESTYLE Hey all!! You're hereby invited to come and shred yourself silly!! There'll be shred circles, but we're planning to run Routines (ranked judging), Shred 30, and maybe a Big Trick or Sick 3 contest depending on numbers of interested competitors and time available. So stand up and be counted!! We want your game here in Vancouver. Remember Worlds 2000? Nothing has changed, it's still as beautiful as ever!! Traditionally this has been a net event but the times, they are a changin'. There's some extremely talented local freestylers in the hood and they're coming into their own. However, they need inspiration and encouragement from the big boys/ girls of SHRED. So far, we expect most of the Victoria crew (Allan Haggett, Jeremy Kumbruch, Jubal Hume, Matt Emmings, Dylan Fry). I went to the island to play with these guys last month and they're on fire! Can't wait to see 'em again. If you're coming *please* let Leanne and I know. Come a day early and go to Molson Canadian's Snow Jam (Fri) featuring appearances by Pennywise, Unwritten Law, and Swollen Members. This two day event (Aug. 23 & 24) will host competitions in BMX, Snowboard, Skateboard, In-Line, and Freeski. Let's show 'em some shred too!! Perfect opportunity to promote the tourney AND your talent! Tickets are $20 CDN in advance at www.ticketmaster.ca and $30 CDN at the door. ------ Of course, net players, will have warm up games goin' on Friday at Kits Beach. Not to worry, there's lots of surface to shred at Kits too if you can't go to Snow Jam. ------ Freestyle info contact Chard Cook at the Canadian Footbag Alliance - chard@FootbagCanada.com or 604-736-0384 All other info contact Leanne Makcrow - queencrow@hotmail.com or 604-251-4021 OR http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1021267082 If you've never been to the Vancouver Open then you're in for a treat. The folks here rule! Hospitable as could be. Come see for yourself!! See ya soon! Always kickin', Chard Cook Freestyle Director DIRECTIONS please click on the inside of the following map (keep clicking to zoom in until you see cross streets) http://www.mapquest.com/maps/savedmaps.adp This map has kits beach, sunset grill, event site, nearby hostel The tournament takes place at the southeast section of Jericho Beach Park, the stretch of grass that borders upon 4th Avenue. ------------------- HOTELS/B&B/HOSTELS/CAR RENTAL We didn't get a big response for hotel accom. so you'll need to accomodate yourselves, however, I've made an effort to help you further by providing you with these quick links to find what you need. hotels http://www.vancouverplus.ca/feature/8640/vancouver.html b&b's http://www.tourismvancouver.com/cgi-bin/members_search.cgi hostels (for this site click preference - Vancouver All) car rentals/attractions/etc... For directions,questions,and RSVP your attendance please email queencrow@hotmail.com or call Leanne Makcrow at (604) 251-4021 Lookin' forward to it ;-> with much love ~The Queen~ ~~Leanne~~ Tournament Director From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 16:43:50 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id QAA31744 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:43:50 -0700 From: "Ted Huff" Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id 5.1bd.b387c58 (18403); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1bd.b387c58.2a91e02f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:46:23 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org thanks Tina ! I'll look & read the comments at flipside, but I am completely certain that what I saw was a posting of 380 ADDS & no Drops during a routine that was completely in control and timed to it's music by Ryan, versus a fantastic performance by Vasek that was 316 Adds and 1 Drop , and not completely in control /in tune with the chosen music. My question is ................so when does 380 Adds and NO Drops count versus "judging" artistic and technical scoring ? If those ADDS & Drops don't count, then what is the basis for scoring Freestyle Footbag ??????!!!!! Too many in the crowd that watched this feel the same, let alone freestyle competitors that I talked with: the judges flawed in posting Vasek too high, and deciding before Ryan performed , and certainly afterward, that they couldn't and wouldn't give him as good or better of a score, except for 2 6.0's in artistic. Ryan earned a victory, but was "jobbed" by his so-called peers. I just hope that the IFPA, and The Czech Republic and it's players don't allow for this kind of slop to occur again, or why would anyone think they can get a fair scoring next year ? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 18:24:25 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id SAA03145 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:24:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 28126 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2002 01:19:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Aug 2002 01:19:58 -0000 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "Ted Huff" , Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:13:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1bd.b387c58.2a91e02f@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ted, debate the outcome... please. Present arguments for your point of view... please. I am glad to see you are interested and truly care about the freestyle results. But, you are also acting irresponsibly. You are suggesting that the judging system at worlds (as approved by the IFPA) and the judges themselves (as appointed by WFC staff) carried out their duties in a careless and unjust manner while overseen by the IFPA and the WFC freestyle staff. Two players in particular performed at tremendously high levels on Championship night and forced the judging panel to split hairs in order to figure who is 1st and who is 2nd place. So sorry it didn't turn out how you thought it should. Please, do not accuse the judges, the IFPA and WFC Freestyle staff of robbing you or anyone else without thoughtful review. So far, the only slop and unfair judgment made to the footbag world at large by a significant and contributing member of the world footbag championships, player or staff, has been made by yourself. It is disappointing. Eric Wulff co-Executive Producer Director of Freestyle World Footbag Championships - 2002 (415) 681-5729 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freestyle@footbag.org [mailto:owner-freestyle@footbag.org]On > Behalf Of Ted Huff > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:46 PM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback > > > thanks Tina ! > I'll look & read the comments at flipside, but I am completely > certain that > what I saw was a posting of 380 ADDS & no Drops during a routine that was > completely in control and timed to it's music by Ryan, versus a > fantastic > performance by Vasek that was 316 Adds and 1 Drop , and not completely in > control /in tune with the chosen music. > > My question is ................so when does 380 Adds and NO Drops count > versus "judging" artistic and technical scoring ? If those ADDS & Drops > don't count, then what is the basis for scoring Freestyle Footbag > ??????!!!!! > Too many in the crowd that watched this feel the same, let alone > freestyle > competitors that I talked with: the judges flawed in posting > Vasek too high, > and deciding before Ryan performed , and certainly afterward, that they > couldn't and wouldn't give him as good or better of a score, except for 2 > 6.0's in artistic. > > Ryan earned a victory, but was "jobbed" by his so-called peers. I just > hope that the IFPA, and The Czech Republic and it's players don't > allow for > this kind of slop to occur again, or why would anyone think they > can get a > fair scoring next year ? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Aug 19 20:11:59 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id UAA15720 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:11:59 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:30:49 -0700 Received: from 216.27.144.67 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:30:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.27.144.67] From: "Stan Sagalovskiy" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds finals feedback Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:30:49 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2002 02:30:49.0759 (UTC) FILETIME=[98E462F0:01C247F1] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, The debate aside, I think the question that's being raised is if the new system of judging "better" than the old one. That question has been answered by many - it is different, there are good and bad points for both, but the new one is much easier to implement and, as experience shows, the simpler solution is usually the one that wins. My only concern with the new system is the way in which the judges are chosen. Footbag is a very close community, and it's probably impossible to find a player who doesn't prefer a certain style or player. I guess my point is that in iceskating and gymnastics the judges don't go out for beers with the players after the competition. Or maybe they do, I don't know. Is there a specific way in which judges are chosen under the new system? (I don't remember if this was already mentioned in the description of the system a few months back.) Should