From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri May 2 00:37:42 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h427bgDV022388 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 00:37:42 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h427bgY0022386 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 May 2003 00:37:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:07:58 -0700 Received: from 139.134.57.153 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:07:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.134.57.153] X-Originating-Email: [lizard_king207@hotmail.com] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:07:57 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Apr 2003 10:07:58.0029 (UTC) FILETIME=[5FECFFD0:01C30F00] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Firstly thanks for the response. I completely agree that not every move needs its very own name and there are plenty of these moves that I have not heard of as well. However I am trying not to let my knowledge of footbag move names effect what I put up so have been posting all the moves I get (eventually). I doubt that over half will be put up on the footbag list. I don't think any of these are new names either and I think it's important to have a list of moves so we all know what we're talking about and don't have to keep asking each other what a motion (or whatever) is. I only really want to put up the more common moves (not all those silly dragon moves). I have no idea who hit neutron smasher/jonny quest first. I do know that Lynton has hit two in a row and regularly hits it cleanly in the middle of guiltless runs. The reason I put up Neutron smasher and not Jonny Quest is that nobody told me that name and while Lynton gave me a list of most of his moves. As for how can Symposium Neutron Smasher be called that, even if Jonny Quest named first, how many people have hit it symposium? If Lynton (or whoever) hit it first, I believe he can name it what he likes. If you have alternate names to any of these moves then please let me know, however there are plenty of cases where moves have been named by the second or third (or first American) to hit them. Irish Cream is a good example. If there is too much debate over the name of a particular move, I'll just leave it out or name it on components (atomic gyro mirage) I believe Wentletrappe is German for a spiral staircase but don't quote me on that. Anyway keep them coming, Jeremy P.S. Floyd if you haven't got my reply to your email, it's because I can't send stuff you your email address. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri May 2 00:39:12 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h427dCDV022431 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 00:39:12 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h427dChn022429 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 May 2003 00:39:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:40:47 -0700 Received: from 24.48.51.21 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:40:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.48.51.21] X-Originating-Email: [pyl2oman55@hotmail.com] From: "Brandon Isralsky" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:40:47 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Apr 2003 10:40:47.0725 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5F4C1D0:01C30F04] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Not that I am anyone to question technical things but to separate one move from the dancing category. In particular, Flipping, for a couple reasons. 1. By comparison it does add a level of difficulty to a trick, for instance if you have a ducking clipper. set < duck[bod] < op clip[xbd][del] You could also have a flipping clipper which would at least be as hard or more probably harder. set < flip[bod] < op clip[xbd][del] 2. Also for the same reason spinning between tricks counts for an add. Flipping is just a change in the way you spin, in a relative manner. 3. The name of the sport is freestyle, to slightly refer to Marc, and it is always expanding into new fields. I am sure some were skeptical when ducking, diving, etc where first introduced, as with all new moves they might take some time to evaluate difficulty. Although I think the flipping variation on a trick will bring a new level of difficulty that this game thrives on. Brandon Isralsky P.s. Possible Flipping Tricks: Flipping Mirage flipping butterfly flipping osis You get the idea. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri May 2 00:40:44 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h427eiDV022485 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 00:40:44 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h427eiuN022483 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 May 2003 00:40:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 1 May 2003 16:56:38 -0700 Received: from 199.216.95.100 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 01 May 2003 23:56:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [199.216.95.100] X-Originating-Email: [qphox@hotmail.com] From: "Kevin Regamey" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:56:38 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2003 23:56:38.0928 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E4DD900:01C3103D] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jane wrote: "I think it's a good idea to continue naming new concepts/sets, but officially, it should not be necessary to name every new trick." Agreed. A lot of people may know this already, but for those that don't, a freaky flexible friend of mine hit a new delay which he aptly named the "Doof" delay. It's basically...hmm, how to explain: Think of a regular inside delay. Now think of a Dragon delay. A doof is simply a dragon-style delay in the position that an inside delay would ordinarily be. Creepy? Yes. And since it is indeed a new "base" concept, it should definitely be named. However, if I somehow manage to hit a Double around-the-world set from toe, ending in doof, *no way* should that have a new name assigned to it. -Kevin Regamey Edmonton AB From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri May 2 13:08:40 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h42K8eDV016019 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 13:08:40 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h42K8eSG016017 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 May 2003 13:08:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 May 2003 07:10:59 -0700 Received: from 210.49.185.20 by by2fd.bay2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 May 2003 14:10:59 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.49.185.20] X-Originating-Email: [ednie@hotmail.com] From: "Dan Ednie" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:10:59 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2003 14:10:59.0623 (UTC) FILETIME=[A80F2B70:01C310B4] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Kevin Regamey wrote "a freaky flexible friend of mine hit a new delay which he aptly named the "Doof" delay.... Yes. And since it is indeed a new "base" concept, it should definitely be named. However, if I somehow manage to hit a Double around-the-world set from toe, ending in doof, *no way* should that have a new name assigned to it." I think it would be kinda cool to have all kinds of totally tripped out names for everything. Like, i mean, so what if the list is really long. I reckon everyone in the footbag community should send in all their coolest names for moves to me and i'll make a list and we'll have names for atw heel, blur ending on an inside. it seems like everyone is really afraid of having a big list like, they would wake up one morning and not know every single moves name, and like look in the mirror and be like, OMG! I reckon if you guys want to keep it simple then that's cool, we can call all the moves that ending in a "doof" stall, a "doofy" move. A double atw ending in a doof would be a doofy atw. I on the other hand would rather call it a magic dragon or a papermario. I'd like to have a move named after every single person who really likes playing footbag and hacky sack, too many freestylers are too into footbag to remember where they have come from, everyone should keep hacking it, and hacking it with newbies, if they want to give back to the sport I'm going to make my own list, but i need everyone in the footbag community who wants their own specific move, as being their move, because the move is named after them then they should send me ten tripped out names for moves along with a few of their preferences, and i don;t mind having four names for a ripwalk or a blur, but i might put a limit on ten. It's kind of like how the Eskimos have 30 names for ice, we should have lots of names for leg beater and pdx whirl and butterfly. i always wanted to know more footbag slang after i heard of jester and flying clipper. So if you don't want to look at the list, don't want to know the names, don't want to be down with the moves then fine go ahead, what do i care, but if you are a real freestyler then you will send in your names for moves, learn them, drill them, enjoy them then you will be for real. Lynton Stephens hit neutron smasher on video in December 1998, He first hit atomic spinning tourque on video in July of 1999 but he says he doesn't mind calling it an irish cream. but Lynton says cataclysm, atomic gyro (spinning?) dlo is definitely his move. Dan Ednie From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri May 2 15:11:15 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h42MBFDV021799 for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 15:11:15 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h42MBFEt021797 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 2 May 2003 15:11:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from pd4mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.213]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HEA006PI2UYOU@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 02 May 2003 15:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HEA00DO02UYVU@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 02 May 2003 15:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-70-216-74.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.216.74]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HEA00LD72UXR7@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 02 May 2003 15:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 14:11:31 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list In-reply-to: X-Sender: allan@llic.net To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030502133602.00b43e30@llic.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This has been said before, but if people put the same amount of time that they spend making new move lists or arguing about names into doing something constructive for the game, then we'd be way further along in our development than we are now. In my opinion, move lists are pretty much a complete waste of time as it is impossible to even come close to naming everything and the debate that naming sparks is counter productive. The current database on footbag.org lists almost all of the *basic* moves. I don't think we should be trying to list anything too much beyond the basic moves as any and all the more complex moves are simply a conglomeration of two or three of the basics all put together. If you have all the basics listed, then you have all the possible combinations contained within that. If anything the Set list is more important to keep up to date. Do some math on how many moves are possible. Still want to try to even try to list them all? As well, I agree with Ellis that technical descriptions of moves rather than arbitrary names should be used in describing new or uncommon higher add moves. Describe the set, the middle and the end move. That's the only way for the majority of people to know what the hell you're talking about. When you say "I hit backside noodle smusher!" it causes way too much confusion for people that don't keep up on every name out there. Then we waste time trying to figure out what the hell you're talking about. Extremely counter productive. At 07:10 AM 5/2/2003, Dan Ednie wrote: >I'm going to make my own list, but i need everyone in the footbag community who wants their own specific move, Are you saying that you think all the effort and due process that is being put into doing something official and democratic is useless and that you intend to usurp the entire thing and get "everyone in the footbag community" to go over to using your list? I think your intelligence and energy would be of far greater benefit being put towards contributing to the system instead of trying to create your own. I think we *really* need to be making more of an effort to work within the already existing, democratic system that has been set up for us. Allan http://list.footbag.org/majordomo/index/freestyle From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun May 4 21:10:32 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h454AW9G013325 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 21:10:32 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h454AWtm013323 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 4 May 2003 21:10:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 4 May 2003 15:48:13 -0700 Received: from 63.105.21.223 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 04 May 2003 22:48:13 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.105.21.223] X-Originating-Email: [damocles_schwert@hotmail.com] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:48:13 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2003 22:48:13.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E7871D0:01C3128F] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Allan Haggett wrote: >if people put the same amount of time that they spend making new move lists >or arguing about names into doing something constructive for the game, then >we'd be >way further along in our development than we are now. Although I appreciate the sentiment I have to disagree. I think an updated move list would be a great help to the footbag community. >The current database on footbag.org lists almost all of the *basic* moves. >I >don't think we should be trying to list anything too much beyond the >basic moves >as any and all the more complex moves are simply a >conglomeration of two or three >of the basics all put together. This is true, but just because I can do the Job's of (almost) every footbag move being hit doesn't mean I have a clue how to do it. I would love to see a list of every move being hit, with common names, a description of the move and some tips. There are a lot of footbag moves whose names' I've don't even know (what the heck is a gauntlet anyway?) and have no way of finding out without sending one of those stupid "so what is a anyway?" messages. I also find myself looking through old postings from time to time for move ideas. Maybe I'm not as creative as you Allan, but I like having a knowledge pool to draw from. It would be dauntingly hard to assemble and maintain a current list, but if someone is willing to do it we should encourage them. Cheers to all. -Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun May 4 23:55:04 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h456t49G017556 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 23:55:04 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h456t4KU017554 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 4 May 2003 23:55:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from pd5mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.144]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HEE00IL9EZIT8@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 23:23:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml3so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.147]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HEE006J4EZI91@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 23:23:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a1.footbag.org (h24-70-216-74.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.216.74]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HEE000RLEZHQP@l-daemon> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 23:23:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:23:54 -0700 From: Allan Haggett Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list In-reply-to: X-Sender: allan@llic.net To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Message-id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030504221758.00b44eb8@llic.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 03:48 PM 5/4/2003, Andrew McCargar wrote: >>Although I appreciate the sentiment I have to disagree. I think an updated >>move list would be a great help to the footbag community. If it were possible to have an accurate and official list of moves, I'd tend to agree that keeping it updated certainly wouldn't do anyone any harm. The problem is that it isn't possible. As has been demonstrated by some of the responses on here recently, people don't all agree on what move should be called what; let alone how many adds it's worth or whether or not it's paradox. Who's right? >> I would love to see >>a list of every move being hit, with common names, a description of the move >>and some tips. You know, back in the day, I had the move list from footbag.org printed out and I carried it with me in my backpack where ever I went and studied that shit (it prints out to like 10+ pages as is). It helped me to understand freestyle. So, I'm not actually saying a moves list is a bad thing. The one that's there is and has been extremely valuable and important to the community. But I also think it's more than possible to waste valuable time and energy trying to list names for moves ad infinitum. We have an official (as official gets around here) move list that lists the basics and then some. Yes, there's probably room for more [moves], but we need some sort of check because it could get out of control pretty fast. I don't think shot-gunning 500 new moves onto the listing will help us be more creative. >>There are a lot of footbag moves whose names' I've don't even >>know (what the heck is a gauntlet anyway?) http://www.footbag.org/newmoves/showmove/232 If you can't use what's already there, is a new or updated list going to help you? ;-) >> It would be dauntingly hard to assemble and maintain a >>current list, In my opinion, it would be impossible. Start the math on it. We also have regional differences in names as well as naming conventions, so do we really keep track of those too? Does any other sport (to which a comparison would apply) keep detailed lists of *every* possible combination of moves? >> but if someone is willing to do it we should encourage them. We should encourage people to work within the existing structure and see how far they get. Very few people have actually tried this and the ones that did gave up on it pretty quick. Even the people that didn't try to work within the structure gave up. Why *is* the moves list so "out of date" exactly? Because no one has cared to update it for a long time. Why is it so important now? Don't we have more important things to do? If you don't (have more important things to do) and want to try listing every move, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it a year from now :-) Allan PS Maybe it would be easy to list all the names if there weren't people like me around to argue about it. I happen to know I'm not the only bitchy, opinionated person out there though, so best of luck to anyone who wants to try it ;-) From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon May 5 08:57:54 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h45Fvr9G004372 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 08:57:53 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h45Fvrme004370 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 08:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from I (brat.footbag.org [209.125.90.60]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h45Fvq9H004366 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 08:57:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@209.125.90.2 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030504221758.00b44eb8@llic.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030504221758.00b44eb8@llic.net> Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:59:01 -0700 To: freestyle@list.footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:23 PM -0700 5/4/03, Allan Haggett wrote: >...we need some sort of check because it could get out of control >pretty fast. I don't think shot-gunning 500 new moves onto the >listing will help us be more creative. Just for the record, we do have a check if we want to use it. And we now have a more sustainable environment for making constant changes to the site (including the move list). With footbag.org, we have an easy way to manage committee memberships, make group decisions (using our online voting tools), share files, and discuss privately (in e-mail-based private forums). IFPA is responsible for footbag.org and is an elected player-run organization. As such, it's simply a matter of having an official IFPA committee to oversee the move list, and that committee would verify any additions meet a set of criteria defined by the committee on behalf of all IFPA members. Jeremy's process has simply been to try to get together some additions to the list, and once he has vetted them on this e-mail discussion list, they would have to be presented to that committee for consideration before they can be added. (Note: we have several move-list admins on footbag.org, who have permission to make changes to the move list. However, *additions* to the list should be approved by the designated committee.) Currently, that committee is by default the IFC Freestyle committee (myself, Scott Davidson, Jan Zimmermann, and Vince Bradley). If people want to volunteer to be on the committee (either for freestyle rules in general, or just for the move list) please e-mail me. We can set up a vote within the existing committee to create a more specific "official moves" committee and vote people onto it in very short order. (In time for it to be useful for this process.) This is an entirely editorial issue -- which is why we have so many arguments/discussions. Listen, folks, the move list you guys all (almost all) originally learned about this sport from was editorially constructed by me, Derric Scalf, Adrian Dick, Damian Coventry, and Stu Macferson. At a certain point, we have to trust that *someone* will be making a choice as to the tenor, depth, and style of the online resources we administer as a team. Also, I haven't weighed in on the meat of this discussion but I'm happy to. Fundamentally, we need to rework the freestyle system entirely -- including how we "compute" adds. I have a proposal I'm working on, so stand by for that. But I think it's pretty clear we need to define the technical components of individual moves in terms of dexterities in relation to the bag's trajectory -- on the way up (sets) AND on the way down (traditional) -- as well as the final catch/kick position. Of course there's more to it, but this is the basic framwork. The online move list should serve three purposes: (1) To show the richness of our sport -- i.e., it should allow us to list *all* of the goofy names people have come up with for these moves, perhaps in the same way that "tips" are currently associated with the moves -- by letting anyone add a name to a move. However, there have to be limits, someone would have to "edit" those names, etc. So, in the short term, I think having the list maintainers be able to list *multiple* (not infinite, maybe up to 3) nicknames for a given move, and allow people to search on those. (2) To list as many *distinct* moves as possible, with their technical names (where "technical" means, "explicit representation of a move in terms of other fundamental moves"). For example, "stepping paradox torque" instead of "goofball" or whatever the name is. Until we have an agreed-upon formal way to decompose freestyle moves, I'd rather list all combinations of sets/catches (though it's truly an editorial decision what components are distinct from other ones). But I wouldn't use all the funny names we've been coming up with for sets -- I'd use the basic names and describe the moves in the most basic terms. Again, it's an editorial decision by someone with a lot of experience as to what's "basic". (Terms such as "nuclear" probably would make it into the "basic" sets category, whereas "go-go" may be chosen to be "stepping backspinning" instead just for clarity. It should be an exercise to the reader to decompose the fundamentals from this list. NOTE: there are (as you all know) a handful of different ways you can look at any *one* move. So, obviously someone has to choose which way to look at it on the move list. I recommend we agree as a community that we'll make this compromise for the sake of sanity. And let the appointed editor(s) make those decisions and set the tone of the discourse represented by the list. (3) To help people learn how to play freestyle (at as advanced a level as they wish). The whole reason I spent *years* writing and maintaining footbag.org was to take what was truly a "black art" (only played by a small handful of players) and expose it to the widest possible audience, in a way that they could learn our culture (which includes to a large degree the names of moves, and the way we all as a community *think* of our sport). The move list has always been a core part of that strategy. And it has worked -- better than I or anyone ever expected. I'm not saying we should rest on our laurels -- far from it. I'd rather see us do more of this type of investment, and get the list to a place where it can take our sport to the next level. (Never look back -- always forward. :-)) The names of moves and the way we (in general) parse our sport into terms and components *is* our culture. It's a constantly-evolving language, if you will, that is in itself a linguistics PhD project. To attempt to satisfy every possible view of the sport is to dilute the culture and/or overly complicate the language. (Which is why having people we all trust to maintain the list is so important.) Anyway, aside from the most complete list we can come up with, obviously videos of the *best players* hitting the moves is another critical component. I truly believe that the reason freestyle is played today on such a large scale is because of the video of Rippin' I put on the internet in 1993. (The first- ever freestyle video online.) We need more of that. In a structured way that makes it *easy* for people *anywhere* to learn our sport. Not buried in some website you have to know the URL to. Okay, maybe nobody wanted my two cents, but you got it. :-) I'd asked Jeremy to have this discussion here so he could collect input on his proposed additions before going the next step (adding them to the list). I think I'd like to (for now) simply put myself in that position of "moves committee" and ask people to join me or replace me (there's a challenge :-)). If nobody else does, I'll take Jeremy's list and vet it (in terms of what is acceptable for the list, and what's superfluous, based on the above) before letting him or another move-list admin add them to the list. Steve From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon May 5 13:21:46 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h45KLk9G019066 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 13:21:46 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h45KLkqI019064 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 13:21:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 May 2003 12:01:45 -0700 Received: from 24.69.8.27 by oe39.law10.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 05 May 2003 19:01:44 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.69.8.27] X-Originating-Email: [soleairpro@hotmail.com] From: "Jubal Hume" To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030504221758.00b44eb8@llic.net> Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:01:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2003 19:01:45.0200 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5AC3700:01C31338] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello all, I do not post here very often anymore as you [who do should know], however I have a few things to mention this time. I am in partial agreement with several of the posts, but one thing has not been mentioned at all yet. When we look back at the roots of freestyle footbag, we tend to admire and even revere the founders, inventors and originators [as people will do with the creators of anything we love]. If we put our feet into the footbag shoes [or barefoot] of the future for a second, I would then look back and want to know who made up the move, who hit it first, what was their name as well as what *they* named it etc, as we already do with the slightly limited list[s] already available. I Feel it to be crucial that we retain all this information for posterity and to accurately keep the records as close as we can to the truth. any thing we build is only as strong as the roots, so we MUST remember the roots to keep them strong in our minds. I do realize the difficulties in this endeavor, but I feel it is worth it. RE: names of moves - I vote that the first person to hit a move can name it. fair is fair. If a move in a concept and has not been hit yet, then the name could be changed [perhaps] by the first person to hit it. If a move has too many nicknames then use the original name, the first one used by the originator. My personal view is that Steve G. is correct, call the moves by tech terms, IE: stepping ducking DLO... One last point, there also [and I do realize this goes slightly contrary what I have just posted] comes a point when, like in music when the name of who invented a chord or note becomes a moot point, then the songs take the forefront, who invented the C note??? who cares right? well I am sure somewhere there is a online debate on that too, because we humans are VERY good at arguing and fighting, perhaps we need to work on WORKING TOGETHER ON THIS. I think a video list of all moves should be either done "in the flesh" or animated . Animated would make the moves *faceless* and put the focus on the art/sport not on who did the video [this could be important if the originator is not still playing or is unavailable for any reason. however real video is far better in many ways [too many to list here] but I have a few suggestions as to "how to film a move" new or old. if you would like to talk about "how to film a move" e-mail me privately To anyone who may have need of my skills/gear for such a project: I have a very good video/audio editing station I have access to lighting gear I have access to a blue screen I own a digital video camera and have several more online at anytime I went to Vancouver Film School I have a solid understanding of the "art" of footbag I will help in any way I can to aid the moves list/combos list/tips list My spring/summer schedule: end of may till mid July : working as a production coordinator and Camera OP on a feature film in Seattle Mid July-August: ??? Sept-October: shooting a dramatic video [with some footbag] Jubal Hume [Victoria BC Canada] From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon May 5 13:21:00 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h45KL09G019029 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 13:21:00 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h45KL048019027 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 13:21:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 May 2003 07:46:47 -0700 Received: from 24.154.237.203 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 05 May 2003 14:46:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.154.237.203] X-Originating-Email: [parkinsons312@hotmail.com] From: "Michael Park" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:46:47 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2003 14:46:47.0412 (UTC) FILETIME=[277B0340:01C31315] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think I'm with Allan on this. updating the move list to include EVERY move is and always will be impossible, simply because our sport is evolving daily, and its spread so much that its hardly conceivable to keep contact with everyone to find out the new moves being hit, and its also impossible to keep everyone out there completely informed, and it's inevitable that someone is going to hit a move they've never seen done before, think its new, name it something, and then things get multiple names, and, even worse, sometimes two things have the same name (dyno and guillotine come to mind, i dont even know what they are now cuz I've heard so many different things for each of them) for these reasons i think that its just futile to try and keep the move list modern. However, if you want to try and update things I'm all for it, I think it would be great to update it, I dunno, semi-annually, annually, bi-annualy whatever I don't care. Just here and there when someone feels the need to volunteer their time to try. I think that perhaps it should be attempted here and there just so that in like, 10 years of staying the same it really is completely out of date just because so many tricks are now more common that the move list isn't comprehensible anymore. One more thing, I think there are some things that need done to the "freestyle" area of footbag.org in general if someone is going to volunteer their time to work on it. One thing is that from what I've conceived xdex has been officially accepted, right? Well if it has, maybe update the existing moves to include the xdex add, and add an xdex tutorial like the pdx tutorial on the site. another thing, for all you guys out there all for preserving the history of the sport (this might be even less possible than keeping the move list updated i wouldn't be one to know) but how about trying to mimic something that flipsider.com was trying in its practice room? With each move description list the date of invention, who invented it, maybe where it was first hit, all that stuff, etc. then in 20 years when some of the older guys now have faded away, they still get credit for being the first to hit something. i mean, sure, guys now will probably never forget who invented things like big apple sauce, montage, gauntlet, etc, but in 10 years when the next generation moves in, seeing as since everyone knows now, no one will feel the need to pass it on by word of mouth like things are every other time in the sport, and eventually the names and memories of such innovative players in their time will be forgotten. Props to the hall of fame for making sure that those who deserve it don't get forgotten, but I think this might be a less prestigious way to give someone the perpetual props they need for being the first to bust huge. Sorry if I repeated myself way to much. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon May 5 14:18:02 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h45LI29G022249 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 14:18:02 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h45LI2Pj022247 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 14:18:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: (qmail 9368 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 21:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO KYZOKU) ([64.81.81.122]) (envelope-sender ) by mail14.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 5 May 2003 21:09:42 -0000 Message-ID: <000401c3134a$a79e4160$0200a8c0@KYZOKU> From: "Chris Pinkus" To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030504221758.00b44eb8@llic.net> Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:09:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mr. Haggett said: > You know, back in the day, I had the move list from footbag.org printed out and I carried it with me in my backpack ME TOO! I did the same thing. Also, I think the movelist is mainly for those people getting started. It gives you an idea of the "more common" move names. The rest should just be learned through word of mouth. Chris Pinkus From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon May 5 15:57:28 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h45MvS9G027468 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 15:57:28 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h45MvSlv027466 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 15:57:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id z.55.3f19d459 (15865) for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 18:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m02.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.130]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v93.12) with ESMTP id MAILINID64-3df93eb6ea7119f; Mon, 05 May 2003 18:49:21 -0400 Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 18:49:21 -0400 From: Damon Mathews To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2A355D7C.7E4412ED.0229878D@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Years ago (1999) I posted a rather large list of about 28 new/differently named moves all ending in a x-body rake. Since then I have seen several well known world champs bustin' those same moves, and have yet to see or hear any names being given to those moves. I doubt seriously that I could honestly still hit most of those moves. It has been about 5 years and 30 pounds since I could move like that. Although I was probably not the original inventor of any of those moves, there are a few I know for a fact were my babies (and still in my arsenal) and I'd like to see them listed on the freestyle moves list. I'm claiming 99' as their birth date. Any objections to these names is ok by me. And if anyone has an earlier birth date for these moves, by all means re-name them and make them your own. Here goes: Thresher - Pixie Paradon Cross Body Rake Front End Loader - Legbeater Cross Body Rake Tiller - Paradon Cross Body Rake I realize that "Double Over Swoosh" was the original name given Double Over Cross Body Rake (which was the inspiration for Cross Body Rake moves) and therefore I won't even attempt to claim that move. Which is why I claimed the paradon version instead. There are like I say about 28 in all. But I can't physically hit most of them anymore. Most recently I witnessed Peter Irish hit Blurry Symposium Whirling Cross Body Rake. I also had a reverse whirling version of the same move, but in 99' reverse whirls were clowned, as were rakes. Also in 99' I witnessed Scott D hit many, many Whirling rakes. Which is why I haven't gone there either. So in closing, I'd like to claim 3 of the 28 as my own. And by all means if you know who invented these tricks, please let the list know (and me too :) ). Thanks, Damon From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon May 5 17:36:32 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h460aV9G032749 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:36:31 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h460aVq1032747 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:36:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:16:51 -0700 Received: from 68.104.39.132 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 May 2003 00:16:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.104.39.132] X-Originating-Email: [roughkid1@hotmail.com] From: "Loren Baum" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:16:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2003 00:16:51.0367 (UTC) FILETIME=[CAA05B70:01C31364] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Since my first 3 months playing when I found the list at www.footbags.net, I have felt that the official list here needed updating. I too used to carry around the list in my backpack, and even wet so far as to transfer it to my palm pilot, what a handy thing to have in your pocket right? I believe that with this first step into revision of the list, we are taking things too far. We now have trick lists over 90 pages long, and we just want to update the real one in one jump, not gonna happen. I needs to be a step by step matter. First step that I feel needs to be taken, as already mentioned here once, is the fixing of the current errors on the list. Classic tricks such as dyno and dimwalk which were named early on are listed falsely on the move list. (For those who don't know, originally, dyno was a dada curve with a swirl on the end, very similar but technically much different than a reverse blender, and dimwalk, Dimitri's toe set variation of Ripwalk, rather than pixie butterfly.) I believe that errors such as these should be corrected first before we *add* anything on to the list. The second step that I feel needs to be taken is to simply add the current popular tricks in use by tons of players to the list. There are countless tricks done by bappers in every other run that you cannot find on footbag.org, and before we go and try to name and list fairy atomic tricks and backflips and stuff, we should merely catch the list up with the big important stuff that's done all the time. While this process is happening, we can have people working on addition tricks to add to the list that everyone can agree on. If necessary, I am willing to volunteer my time to this project, and being one of the biggest participants in the forums as of late, I have a good deal of knowledge about the sport. I am available upon request regardless of if my ideas are used or not, because I have always believed in a move list in one form or another, and will be willing to help make the best one possible. Sincerely, Loren D. Baum Las Vegas Zombies Footbag Club From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed May 7 16:02:24 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h47N2O9G013818 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 16:02:24 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h47N2OCJ013816 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 7 May 2003 16:02:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id C0DDA133E6; Wed, 7 May 2003 08:13:16 -0400 (EDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Received: from [155.91.6.71] by xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 May 2003 08:13:16 EST Reply-To: robert__green@excite.com From: "Bob Green" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: robert__green@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: supers77@hotmail.com Message-Id: <20030507121316.C0DDA133E6@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:13:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Most recently I witnessed Peter Irish hit Blurry Symposium Whirling >Cross Body Rake. I also had a reverse whirling version of the same >move, but in 99' reverse whirls were clowned, as were rakes. Also in >99' I witnessed Scott D hit many, many Whirling rakes. As far back as northern hemisphere spring or summer of 98' Steve Howland (of Idaho at the time, now in Nebraska?) was hitting the non-symposium blurry whirling cross body rake. At the time neither of us knew of anyone else hitting it, but I guess that isn't to say no one else was. Bob Green From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed May 7 16:06:05 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h47N649G014036 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 16:06:05 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h47N64aw014034 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 7 May 2003 16:06:04 -0700 Message-Id: <200305072306.h47N64aw014034@llic.net> X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from [172.197.70.27] by web40807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 May 2003 01:48:32 PDT Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:48:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Lon Smith Subject: [freestyle] Tiltless Guiltless Tripless Fearless Beastly Godly To: freestyle@list.footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) I, Lon, have been playing a lot of footbag here in San Diego, California with Richie Abshire, Eric Windsor, & Randy Magliocca. It's been very fun. A few days ago I hit ten fearless. I was wondering if anyone else has hit 7 or more 5's in a row? Daryl Genz, Jim Penske, Ryan Mulroney, and and and.......???? What about tripless records? Guiltless? Tiltless? Beastly? Godly? Keep it up! L8R Lon Smith - LonSmithicus@yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed May 7 22:45:34 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h485jX9G031770 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 22:45:33 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h485jXK4031768 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 7 May 2003 22:45:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from comcast.net (c-67-162-245-235.client.comcast.net [67.162.245.235]) by mtaout04.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HEJ00F5ET1UY7@mtaout04.icomcast.net> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 07 May 2003 23:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:29:51 -0500 From: Derric Scalf Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Cc: freestyle@list.footbag.org Message-id: <3EB9CF2F.6FD4DB6A@comcast.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey. I wanted to chime in on the whole move list thing. As a lot of you know, I've been one of the main ones neglecting the move list over the last year or so. Steve has been upgrading footbag.org to allow the list to be more flexible in entries and searches. Good work Steve. Anyway, a few points. First, and it has been said a few times already, it is impossible to get EVERY move on the list. The list is already huge and it isn't even close to showing all of the possible moves. It is my opinion that any move can be caught on any surface (if it can be caught on a clipper, it can also end with a dragon, xbdy toe, flapper, etc. - if it can end on a toe, it can also end on an inside, outside, heel, etc.). So, instead of having 10 different variations of mirage listed, we have one. It is up to the user to figure out what other stalls you can do to end a move. Second, about regional nicknames... multiple nicknames will be shown on the list. Each move has a technical name (like stepping ducking paradox torque) and many moves have nicknames (like the previous example - gauntlet). As Steve said in his post, the number of nicknames should be reasonable... 3 or 4 should cover all of the main ones. And, lastly... about the relevance of the freestyle list. I don't think that anyone can deny the influence of a move list on the growth of the sport. Many people - myself included - learned from the list. Many people are currently learning from the list. We can't do without it. So... if you see a problem with the list, let me know - or send an email to freestyle@footbag.org to discuss any inconsistencies. We need a list, but it would sure help to have a good one. -Derric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu May 8 15:20:35 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h48MKY9G007189 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 15:20:34 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h48MKYP5007187 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 8 May 2003 15:20:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Thehuff1@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id z.10d.240d27c8 (4552) for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Huff Message-ID: <10d.240d27c8.2bebc7bd@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:46:21 EDT Subject: [freestyle] Hall of Fame voting for Freestyle Champions To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dear freestylers, The final ballot has been sent out to all current members of the Footbag Hall of Fame, and they will be returning their vote to Master KENNY SHULTS by June 1st. For the record, I have encouraged, as I have tried for many years, that the greatest freestylers of the recent past be inducted now. With World's in Prague, and the influence of freestyle so high, it is past time to recognize those that have had the greatest influence , significance, as World's champion's , and game innovator's from past to present. I also feel that there is a promoter that must be recognized for their significant influence on the sport's growth . For the record, my ballot vote included Jon Lind, Jay Muldenhauer, Rippin' Rick Reese, and Eric Wulff for their inspirational , influential play, besides other contributions. Also, for Brenda and Joe Solonoski, founders of and still running the Funtastic celebration for 18 years, an event that has been extremely influential for innovation, and continuing the enthusiasm for others to promote tournaments for fun competition worldwide, especially Freestyle. Your input to this voting process each year is very important and appreciated. You are the champions of today , and hopefully of tomorrow, so that the sport will grow through your teachings and promotion. If you have any other feedback, do not hesitate to contact Ken Shults, or myself, or the members of the nomination committee via kenshults@aol.com I look forward to Worlds, and a celebration for the inductee's in Prague. Good luck in your fun and competition this year ! best regards, Ted Huff co-director Footbag Hall of Fame Historical Society From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu May 8 15:24:18 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h48MOI9G007380 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 15:24:18 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h48MOHNJ007378 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 8 May 2003 15:24:17 -0700 Message-Id: <200305082224.h48MOHNJ007378@llic.net> X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from [172.197.70.27] by web40806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 May 2003 01:41:38 PDT Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:41:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Lon Smith Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list To: freestyle@list.footbag.org In-Reply-To: <200305062226.h46MQ2Lf019401@llic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Hi Everyone, This is Lon. Like many other beginners intermediates & pro's I too carried around a copy of the moves list from footbag.org in backpack. That's how I learned the add system & nearly all the freestyle moves. I'd like to create a moves list with all the names and nicknames. At the Colorado tournament this last winter I met a man who has written a book on footbag moves. I saw it. It has every move ever hit or thought up. It has every little detail. Including Nicknames, real descriptive name, jobs notation inventor, date first hit, and then a detailed paragraph description of how the move is done.It is an amazing book. I can't believe I can't remember the guys name. He sold/traded me 3 leather hacks too. Anyhow, I have been working on a list of every repeatable move. I call it the world records list. It doesn't have jobs notation yet or nicknames yet but it has the records. I will contact my friend Joe Crain in Ireland & ask him to program another field for nicknames. Check it out www.visionpcservices.com/footbag-records/ Play Hard, Have Fun Lon - lonsmithicus@yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu May 8 15:25:03 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h48MP39G007403 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 15:25:03 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h48MP3Mr007401 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 8 May 2003 15:25:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from FuegoShredder@cs.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id r.73.30a15872 (24895); Wed, 7 May 2003 23:11:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Coleman Message-ID: <73.30a15872.2beb24f3@cs.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:11:47 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tiltless Guiltless Tripless Fearless Beastly Godly To: freestyle@list.footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 122 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sick stuff man! What was the string? Was anyone filming? The last I heard Vasek got 9 fearless. Keep it up man. -Andrew PS-the term Godly might be somewhat risky. When people are hitting strings of 8's (it'll happen) it will be hard to find a word that sounds sicker than "Godly". Maybe Godly could be used to describe a record breaking run, so there's no limit, so maybe a Godly Fearless run could describe a string in which the fearless contact record is broken, or a run of Godly Drifters would be one in which the drifter record was broken. Just a thought. Wow, my p.s. was way longer than my original post. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri May 23 15:14:09 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) with ESMTP id h4NME89G014053 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:14:08 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.3) id h4NME8qG014051 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 23 May 2003 15:14:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: (qmail 8826 invoked by uid 0); 23 May 2003 20:29:52 -0000 Received: from [212.11.106.172] by email.seznam.cz with HTTP; Fri, 23 May 2003 22:29:51 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:29:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Tomas Konicek Reply-To: Tomas Konicek Subject: [freestyle] Drills - Please Contribute Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <53157.235105-22863-1081174640-1053721791@seznam.cz> To: freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id h4NKU99G008920 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi everyone, I am Tomas Konicek (a.k.a. horse), a member of the Prague Dictators team and a passionate footbag fan. I newly came up with an idea of creating a database of drills and I would like to share some ideas with you and propose participation on a database of drills. After some time playing footbag I developed interest in naming system of tricks and footbag vernacular in general just to prevent me loosing my orientation amongst the numerous variations. One day I played with Aleš Zelinka and saw him hitting Blurriest>Blurrier>Blurriest >Blurrier. He later told me that it's a drill, which raised my curiosity, since I regarded it as a very efficient method how to improve the weaker side. Another drill that I saw was Fog>Paradon performed by Sunil Jani in the ripwalk video, however I failed to find any description or it's name on the net. The result of several hours of browsing was a set of 3 drills: BAP (blur>paradon >repeat), Rubbermann (blur>atomsmasher> legbeater>sumo>repeat) and Rubberman 2 (legbeater>pdx legbeater>sumo>repeat). I began to invent some of my own. I admit that the aptness of the word invent might not be appropriate, as for example the drill butterfly>pdx mirage>repeat is common even amongst the beginning freestylers. This is essentially the issue I wish to address. At the moment I have about 150 drills, all named and performed by me and others: Vašík hit Superglue (ps whirl>whirlwind) or Honza hit Spider's Web (blurry whirl>dyno>pdx whirl>repeat). The crucial matter is whether I can regard this continuously expanding list of drills as official. Many of the easier drills many of you surely hit already, or even invented them and named them before I did publish them in my list (www.sweb.cz/t.konicek/index.html). And that's the question. For example: I cannot really name the drill fog>paradon and take credit for it, since Sunil Jani already hit it (the current names are temporary! and if it is the case that you are the author of any of the drills please let me know and I will immediately edit the list). This, of course, will be a subject of a long- term discussion and only your opinion can objectify the matter. It would be nice if drills would have names similarly like footbag tricks. Provided everything goes well I would like to present the drills on the Internet, either on my personal web site or, with the permission of the webmasters, on footbag.org or footbag.cz. These would be the potential plans for the distant future. I sincerely hope that my effort to develop footbag through drills won't trigger any negative reactions. If anyone hit a drill and more importantly named it, please mention it on the discussion forum so that everyone can express their opinion. I am looking forward to your reply. Tomas Konicek From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu May 29 18:10:07 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h4U1A6Cu024591 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:10:06 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h4U1A6NL024589 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:10:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 May 2003 03:09:21 -0700 Received: from 139.134.58.153 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 May 2003 10:09:21 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.134.58.153] X-Originating-Email: [lizard_king207@hotmail.com] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:09:21 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 May 2003 10:09:21.0401 (UTC) FILETIME=[5F994E90:01C325CA] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok, The following moves are moves that I believe, having heard responses from everyone and used my own descretion, are moves that should be added to the list, either because they demonstrate a new set or are used often enough to be regarded as official moves (hence should be on the official list), not that I take anything away from moves that aren't on the list. Some of these are moves are only performed by a few people but are talked about by a lot more and I believe it is important for people to know what they are when discussing them. Arcwalk frigid osis set>same in>op out>op clip a ripwalk set from a frigid osis set. Ripwalk style although dimwalk job's notation. Blazing Butterfly clip>op in (whirling set)>op out>op clip A whirling butterfly. Symp Blazing Butterfly (firewalk) clip>(no plant while)op in (Symp whirling set)>op out>op clip A symp whirling butterfly Assassin toe>same in>duck>op in>op toe Pixie ducking mirage - alpine smear Predator toe>op out>op in>op out>same toe atomic dlo. Tunguska toe>op out>dive>op in> op out>same toe Atomic ducking double leg over, alpine predator. Cataclysm toe>op out>spin>op in>op out>same toe Atomic gyro dlo. Atomic Torque toe>op out>op in>spin>op clip Neutron Smasher toe>op out>spin>op in>op toe atomic gyro mirage Scorpion's Toe Nail toe>spin (back)>same out>same out>op clip Motion toe>same out>same out>spin>same clip A down double down bailed to an osis. Note, the second dex must really be more like that of a dyno to ensure that the move does end with an osis and not a refraction. Rasmus toe>op out>duck>op in>op toe Alpine atomsmasher Pixie Warrior toe>same in>duck>op out>op clip Pixie ducking butterfly - alpine dimwalk Atomic Warror toe>op out>duck>op out>op clip atomic ducking butterfly - alpine leg beater There are more moves that need to be run through the list, but if I hear no complaints about these, they will be added to the list. Note this means that if you have a problem with one or more of these moves, this is your last chance to comment. Kind of, it would be a pain to put a move up and then remove it, but it's possible. Jeremy From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat May 31 13:11:34 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h4VKBYCu008009 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 13:11:34 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h4VKBY4F008007 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 31 May 2003 13:11:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 31 May 2003 10:21:09 -0700 Received: from 68.108.143.214 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 31 May 2003 17:21:09 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.108.143.214] X-Originating-Email: [roughkid1@hotmail.com] From: "Loren Baum" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:21:09 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 May 2003 17:21:09.0928 (UTC) FILETIME=[071C4A80:01C32799] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Two notes about the new moves to be added: 1 A motion IS a double refraction, not a double over osis. The significant difference there in being it's a 4 add, not a 5. 2. After reading MANY a list and much discussion, I have always heard Pixie Ducking butterfly (when not referred to as "pixie ducking butterfly") called Phoenix. Pixie Warrior does make sense to some degree, but I don't think it is popular enough to use on the official list. This move should be on the list though, perhaps just referred to as "pixie ducking butterfly". (Wouldn't pixie warrior make more sense in the future when we can frantic ducking butterfly? Just a quick thought.) Loren D. Baum Las Vegas Zombies Footbag Club