From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jun 1 14:53:11 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h51LrACu031725 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:53:10 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h51LrAZa031723 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:53:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from PsyKick77@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id z.28.38eeb9fb (16781) for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:13:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Windsor Message-ID: <28.38eeb9fb.2c0b722f@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:13:51 EDT Subject: [freestyle] Alpine To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just wanted to say I hate the term "alpine" for moves with ducking or diving or zulu or whatever between sets. This is exactly why... too many variables for a single trick name. When you say the name of a trick, there shouldn't be more information you have to find out later on, ie., "was it a ducking or diving Alpine Tombstone?", you should just know what it is. Is anyone with me? I think we should not use this. Eric Windsor From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 2 02:54:28 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h529sSCu025044 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 02:54:28 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h529sSOr025042 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 02:54:28 -0700 Message-Id: <200306020954.h529sSOr025042@llic.net> X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from [131.172.4.45] by web13804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 21:39:45 PDT Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:39:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Lee Subject: [freestyle] Re: Alpine To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Eric said: I just wanted to say I hate the term "alpine" for moves with ducking or diving or zulu or whatever between sets... too many variables... There are three things that I hate; early buses, broken trains and shin splints. There are also three things that I would rather avoid; my mum's driving, sprained ankles and excessively long footbag move lists. And at least one of these problems will become even more overblown with no chance of subsiding unless it is nipped in its bud. The one I'm going to talk about? The long move lists. Take a look at this example: jack-knife, ripped warrior, pixie warrior, pheonix, pixie ducking same butterfly, leviathan, stepping ducking same down double down, blazing ducking mirage, blazing ducking butterfly, etc, etc, etc. Here we have just some of the moves that have the format of set > duck > (downtime component). Now if we were to triple that number of moves to allow for ducking and diving variations, I'd say that we'd be looking at, if we're lucky, another 20 new moves. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that people should be denied the chance to make a recognised contribution to footbag by naming moves. Perhaps what could be done is introduce certain concepts, such as alpine, that serve to simplify the communication of ideas so that anyone from any area could understand what the move is while, to recognise the inventor(s), there would also be a less descriptive name that can be used as desired within a region (eg: tunguska, which is an atomic ducking dlo and was invented in Australia. Aussies would say tunguska but when describing it to people unfamiliar to the term they'd say alpine predator.) An example of this simplification: pixie ducking mirage > atomic ducking dlo > pixie ducking butterfly > stepping ducking same butterfly > stepping ducking op butterfly aka: assassin > atomic ducking dlo > pheonix/pixie warrior > jack-knife > ripped warrior or, to put it simply: alpine smear > alpine predator > alpine dimwalk > alpine sidewalk > alpine ripwalk. Maybe it's just me, but I'd hate to have to learn 30 new move names rather than just 3 variations of the same concept. Wouldn't you? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 2 14:33:04 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h52LX3Cu022119 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:33:03 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h52LX3Rc022117 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:33:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:05:01 -0700 Received: from 128.223.162.33 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:05:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [128.223.162.33] X-Originating-Email: [shreddaily@hotmail.com] From: "Nate Linscott" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:05:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2003 21:05:01.0626 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1DA41A0:01C3294A] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This would be my suggestion, 1. Forget the whole freestyle list. 2. make a freestyle component list. This will be three fold A) down time moves B) sets C)other ie, ducking, gyro, dragon, ect... This list would probably keep the list to under 100 components. On this list there would be no blur, only blurry set and mirage in their separate categories. 3. make a common name list. Take all the common names and describe them in component terms. For now I would say get rid of all the controversial names. Just put on accepted names of moves like leg beater and ripped warrior. 4. AND MOST IMPORTANT. I think this whole who ever HITS a move first gets to name it isn't going to get us anywhere. I propose the only way a COMMON NAME can be added to the common names list(2) is if it is sealed from front and back at world class tourney, ie worlds, CCS, european open and seen by several shredders. Then at the end of the tourney it will be announced (sort of like BAP) what new names will be added. This can go for new components as well, for example if someone hits a downtime eggbeater bailed to osis, sealed from front and back in a circle with 3 other BAP that person can name that and add it to the freestyle component list(1). I think doing this would have the following advantages: The best way to understand and describe a move is through freestyle component naming. Common moves can be shortened because of frequent use and execution. AND someone who hits a move half THE in their garage can't name a move. They can certainly claim "I hit blazing diving dyno" but they can't write the list and say I want to call this TWEAK unless they show mastery of it in front of many shredders. It is very hard to seal a move that hasn't been hit before from the front and back. Probably some of the moves that already have common names would be disqualified, for example has anyone ever hit butterfly >nemesis> osis? In other words mastery of the move is necessary before a common name can be given. And most important it would consolidate a seemingly infinite list into a smaller consumable quantity. Nate From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Jun 3 16:42:53 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h53NgrCu025992 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:42:53 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h53NgrwB025990 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:42:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:59:29 -0700 Received: from 68.104.172.162 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 14:59:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.104.172.162] X-Originating-Email: [freestylechat@hotmail.com] From: "Nathan Oates" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 07:59:29 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2003 14:59:29.0733 (UTC) FILETIME=[BBD6B750:01C329E0] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wicked said: >I just wanted to say I hate the term "alpine" for moves with ducking or >diving or zulu or whatever between sets. This is exactly why... too many >variables for a single trick. Maybe "Alpine" would be a suitable descriptor for a string of tricks that has mostly dives and ducks, zulus, etc. For example: "He went totally alpine on that run". -Nathan Oates From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tue Jun 3 23:40:36 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h546eaCu011696 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:40:36 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h546eapS011694 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:40:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 16:10:10 -0700 Received: from 68.108.143.214 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 23:10:10 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.108.143.214] X-Originating-Email: [roughkid1@hotmail.com] From: "Loren Baum" To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New moves for move list Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:10:10 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2003 23:10:10.0423 (UTC) FILETIME=[F3080070:01C32892] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dear List, This is Loren Baum again, and, due to some confusion that my post got, I am going to repeat the first part of my last post with a little clarification. I had said: >1 A motion IS a double refraction, not a double over osis. The significant >difference there in being it's a 4 add, not a 5. I had previously considered motion a 5 add as well, but a certain BAPer had come to town and explained to me it was four by saying what I had said in my last message so I went and looked for myself and saw that the jobs for refraction are: SET > OP INSIDE [DEL] > OP OUT [DEX] > OP CLIP [XBD] A bit confusing, but still, the point is, a motion is merely a dex before the refraction, not two dexes, then an osis (or, as some people emailed me, a double dex, then a refraction.) making the jobs for it SET > OP/SAME OUT[DEX] > SAME INSIDE [DEL] > OP OUT [DEX] > OP CLIP [XBD] Go through the "motion" for it in slow "motion" and you'll see that it's just adding a dex and that as long as we don't (and shouldn't) consider a refraction a dex and then an osis, we must consider motion a 4 add. Loren D. Baum PS: I hate debating adds, just do the trick regardless, its neat, but for the list puposes, it should be properly categorized. [MODERATOR'S NOTE: I should have put this through a couple days ago - sorry about that :)] From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 00:33:03 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h547X3Cu013341 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:33:03 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h547X39h013339 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:33:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from greenstreet.umail.ucsb.edu ([128.111.151.214] helo=localhost) by lorre.umail.ucsb.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19NSY7-000OY3-Vt for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:19:07 -0700 Received: from ip68-6-43-71.sb.sd.cox.net (ip68-6-43-71.sb.sd.cox.net [68.6.43.71]) by webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:19:07 -0700 Message-ID: <1054711147.3edd9d6bd7436@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:19:07 -0700 From: Jeremy Mirken To: freestyle@list.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: [Freestyle] New moves for move list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2-cvs X-Scanner: exiscan *19NSY7-000OY3-Vt*1qpxifjsMsw* (U-Mail Electronic Communications - UCSB) X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org "a motion is merely a dex before the refraction, not two dexes, " I have to disagree with this statement. I think that a sloppy motion can be completed in ths manner, but that a true motion has two dexes followed by a same side osis. To me it is similar to the symposium butterfly issue- symposium butterfly can be executed properly when the dex and the delay occur at different times, howver most people a we all know pull the bag thru the dex, thus making it sloppy. It is these people, I included, who have ruined this trick, degrading it to 3 add status rather than 4 adds. Similarly, a motion can be completed cleanly, 2 dexes + osis, or as you described it, 1 dex + refraction. Lastly, even though a barfly is 4 adds, 2 of which come from the 'dex' category, this move clearly does not have two complte dexes. Does this mean that it should not get 2 dex adds? No! It deserves its adds regardless of whether both of its dexes are complete. So when a motion is executed with 2 dexes, whether or not these dexes are clean, there are TWO of them. Jeremy -- Jeremy Mirken hackman@umail.ucsb.edu From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 04:11:55 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h54BBtCu020394 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 04:11:55 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h54BBtAv020392 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 04:11:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from PsyKick77@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id z.198.1b32483e (18555) for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:06:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Windsor Message-ID: <198.1b32483e.2c0f2ca6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:06:14 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) I started to think more about this. It is a good concept for trying to describe Ducking/Diving/Zulu between two dexes. If alpine was scrapped and I say ducking blizzard for instance, your not sure if the person ducked before performing the first dex, in between dexes, or did a after the two dexes. This is all way to confusing. Maybe alpine could be stricly used when refering to ducking between dexes, NOT DIVING OR ZULU (ripworrior i.e. alpine ripwalk).. Should Zulus between dexes be called amazon?? (zulu warrior i.e. amazon ripwalk)?? Should diving between dexes be called Arctic?? (stepping diving paradox mirage i.e. arctic blur)?? so: alpine = ducking between two dexes. amazon = zulu between two dexes. arctic = diving between two dexes. Does this sound dumb or is it cool. I think that IS COOL! wicked From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 15:49:42 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h54MngCu018724 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:49:42 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h54Mng7Y018722 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:49:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.2 #30655) id <0HFY06R01J3MDC@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:38:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.2 #30655) with ESMTP id <0HFY06OK1J3MFQ@clem.mscd.edu>; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:38:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:32:04 -0600 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine To: Eric Windsor , freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: <3EDD0879@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Eric Windsor ===== > Should diving between dexes be called Arctic?? (stepping diving >paradox mirage i.e. arctic blur)?? >arctic = diving between two dexes. I think it's cool EXCEPT "arctic" is already used for Frigid(osis) Pixie Set. How about "Orbital", "Lunar", "Solar", "Celestial"? Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 15:52:29 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h54MqTCu018839 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:52:29 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h54MqT5p018837 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:52:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from PsyKick77@aol.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id l.40.30078913 (4328); Wed, 4 Jun 2003 16:30:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Windsor Message-ID: <40.30078913.2c0fb0ed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 16:30:37 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) In a message dated 6/4/2003 5:38:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Brad Kaplan writes: > > I think it's cool EXCEPT "arctic" is already used for Frigid(osis) Pixie > Set. > How about "Orbital", "Lunar", "Solar", "Celestial"? Does anyone do this trick?? Arctic sounds good in combonation with alpine and amazon.... Can the names be switched? haha jk.. Ahh frigid pixie you suck. zulu + amazon works. ducking + alpine sounds good. arctic and alpine Definitely go together. Both cold weather.. amazon is like the opposite of this.. zulu is the opposite of ducking. They all start with A's! hehe. It should represent a place on earth, um er someting. Alpha? Okay, Aqua?..Argentine :P no.. Alabama? no :P.. Orbital, Lunar, Solar, Celestial are neat names, but not as cool for this concept because we could still keep Alpine around. or did you just mean those four names instead of arctic??.. Eric. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 15:59:03 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h54Mx2Cu019205 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:59:02 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h54Mx21Q019203 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:59:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.2 #30655) id <0HFY06X01M07R6@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@list.footbag.org; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:40:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.2 #30655) with ESMTP id <0HFY06W8FM07T4@clem.mscd.edu>; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:40:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:34:48 -0600 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: [freestyle] Motion (was New moves for move list) To: freestyle , Loren Baum Message-id: <3EDD0D01@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Loren Baum ===== >Dear List, >>1 A motion IS a double refraction, not a double over osis. The significant >>difference there in being it's a 4 add, not a 5. >I had previously considered motion a 5 add as well, but a certain BAPer had >come to town and explained to me it was four Uh... Wrong! A motion is most definitely 2 dexes and an osis. The BAPper must have been commenting on someone who was doing it wrong or they were just wrong. I hate to say this, but not all BAP members are agreed on what moves are what and some are not as proficient in the technical stuff as non-BAP members. Take Rob Fuller for instance or even Derric Scalf. Those two know more of the technical info than most anyone I've met and neither are in BAP. BAP = Shredelicious not necessarily infolicious. Real quick, the key differences betwixt a refraction and an osis are where it falls on your foot and where you're looking when you execute. An osis you are catching behind your leg (i.e. outside the body) and looking over your shoulder (or under your arm) and the bag is carried behind your body. A Refraction is being caught inside the body and you are essentially looking in between your legs when you are catching it and carrying it through. So if you are not doing a second dex that ends in an osis then you are correct, it's not a motion and it's not worth 5 adds schmads. If you are doing two dexex ending in an osis then it's a motion and IS worth 5 add schmads. >PS: I hate debating adds, just do the trick regardless, its neat, but for >the list puposes, it should be properly categorized. Right, do the trick regardless, just make sure you know which trick you're doing. And it is categorized properly. I'M OUT OF ORDER... YOU'RE OUT OF ORDER...THIS WHOLE COURT'S OUT OF ORDER!!! Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 20:52:01 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h553q1Cu032380 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:52:01 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h553q1I9032378 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:52:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:28:59 -0700 Received: from 209.115.205.53 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 03:28:59 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.115.205.53] X-Originating-Email: [qphox@hotmail.com] From: "Kevin Regamey" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:28:59 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2003 03:28:59.0615 (UTC) FILETIME=[9A63E6F0:01C32B12] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Brad Kaplan writes: > > > > I think it's cool EXCEPT "arctic" is already used for Frigid(osis) Pixie > > Set. > > How about "Orbital", "Lunar", "Solar", "Celestial"? > >>Orbital, Lunar, Solar, Celestial are neat names, but not as cool for this >concept because we could still keep Alpine around. or did you just mean >those >four names instead of arctic??.. >Eric. Wait wait wait...I read this topic in its entirety thus far, just today, and before I'd gotten to the latest reply, I'd assumed that someone would've mentioned this already, but apparently they haven't. It's my understanding that when you're naming tricks technically, the order in which you say the components kind of depends on the chronological order in which they take place. ie: Montage = Gyro Ducking Paradox Symposium Whirl. Leviathan = Stepping Ducking Barfly If you rename those to their "Alpine" counterparts (Whirlwind/Blurriest), you screw up the whole chronological thing, and as has been stated before, create confusin to the direction of duck. I thought the whole ducking thing had been cleared up... Ducking opp = Ducking Ducking same = Weaving Diving opp = Zulu Diving same = Diving This seems to me to be the most straight-forward way of naming these moves. Alpine is just adding more ingredients to a pot that's already overflowing. - Kevin Regamey Edmonton AB From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 23:20:56 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h556KtCu005312 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 23:20:55 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h556KtGF005310 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 23:20:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from greenstreet.umail.ucsb.edu ([128.111.151.214] helo=localhost) by lorre.umail.ucsb.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Nn6L-000OA4-Fj for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 22:15:49 -0700 Received: from R182133.resnet.ucsb.edu (R182133.resnet.ucsb.edu [128.111.182.133]) by webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 22:15:48 -0700 Message-ID: <1054790148.3eded2040e539@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 22:15:48 -0700 From: Jeremy Mirken To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Penske Hit Legfreezer First? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2-cvs X-Scanner: exiscan *19Nn6L-000OA4-Fj*alWkuXkTrdk* (U-Mail Electronic Communications - UCSB) X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was diggin' thru the annals of my email and I found a true GEM: "Yo Freestylers!! I've been messing around with a new set lately. Its a frigid osis nuclear. Start by doing a left foot osis, set straight up instead of scooping through. Then bring your right leg around the bag from out to in like a nuclear. So far the only thing I've hit out of it is butterfly (frigid paradox legbeater). Anyone else hitting this? shred on, Jim Penske P.S. the easiest five for me is toe set quadruple ducking toe stall." That's right folks. This means that Jim Penske hit what is know known as "legfreezer," most recently named and executed by Moglum of footbag.cz, on Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:15:26. Does this mean that Penske's completion of the move predates Moglum's? I find it interesting that Penske never voiced that he hit this move. Jeremy Mirken -- Jeremy Mirken hackman@umail.ucsb.edu From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 4 23:30:35 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h556UZCu005696 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 23:30:35 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h556UZA8005694 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 23:30:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from adsl-63-196-59-156.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (HELO techyes) (hwgirl@pacbell.net@63.196.59.156 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2003 05:08:25 -0000 Message-ID: <000801c32b20$7f22c9c0$6401a8c0@techyes> From: "Sam Colclough" To: freestyle@footbag.org References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 22:08:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > I thought the whole ducking thing had been cleared up... > > Ducking opp = Ducking > Ducking same = Weaving > Diving opp = Zulu > Diving same = Diving > > This seems to me to be the most straight-forward way of naming these moves. > Alpine is just adding more ingredients to a pot that's already overflowing. > > - Kevin Regamey Edmonton AB > Good point Kevin. The thing is that if you say ducking ripwalk, some/most/none/whoever might assume you are talking about a ripped warrior (stepping ducking infinity). But A ducking ripwalk technically would be a duck and then a ripwalk after the duck. The level of play is rising so high that things like ducking mobius are actually possible. I don't mean a gyro ducking torque like the one that fantastic amazing Lon hits. I mean a duck and then a mobius afterwards. In order to remedy this, myself and others use the term 'alpine' to describe the fact that there is a duck (or dive whatever) in between the two components. If you were to say pixie ducking mirage. That is obvious what the trick is. But if you were to say ducking smear. Is it a ducking between the dexes, or is the smear done after the duck or is it a frantic ducking toe stall? It is easy to clear this up with a tearm like alpine which means between components. But.. what is an alpine smog? is it a pixie ducking double legover or a frantic ducking legover? there are 3 components? FAILURE OF TERM!!! So, I dunno, I actually don't even know! And also, the main point, is it ducking diving zulu or weaving? The best answer to this was given to me by SOMEONE!. Someone said that if tricks are named correctly, there need be no specification between diving and zulu, or weaving and ducking... eg: diving butterfly = diving same side butterfly diving infinity = "zulu op side butterfly" Get it? Helllz yeah. -Samurai From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 5 00:11:07 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h557B7Cu007073 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:11:07 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h557B7mY007071 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:11:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web13803.mail.yahoo.com (web13803.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.13]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with SMTP id h5576ICu006972 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:06:19 -0700 Message-ID: <20030605070616.87970.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [210.49.199.51] by web13803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 00:06:16 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:06:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Lee Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Kevin Regamey said: > It's my understanding that when you're naming tricks > technically, the order > in which you say the components kind of depends on > the chronological order > in which they take place. I was thinking that alpine could serve to abbreviate technical descriptions of moves. So if somebody didn't know what montage, alpine and whirlwind were you'd say gyro ducking paradox symposium whirl. But if they knew the alpine concept and what a whirlwind was you could say alpine whirlwind. Alpine whirlwind's a technical name (although not completed expanded like the first example) but the true name would still be montage. A possible solution to the diving version of alpine problem could be antarctic but that's getting a bit too much of a mouthful. Maybe we should save antarctic for when someone comes up with a frigid-fairy set :)? In response to Sam's post regard alpine's use in a three dex setting I was understand that the alpine meant a duck after the set. An example of this idea could be: There's no such thing as an alpine dlo. An alpine smog would be a pixie ducking dlo. But alpine wouldn't be much use when saying alpine frantic legover unless frantic legover had a name (but the duck would come between the 2nd and 3rd dex). Alpine nemesis (if it happens) would have the duck between the 2nd and 3rd dex. Bye, Jon. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 5 01:13:20 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h558DKCu008872 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 01:13:20 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h558DK8f008870 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 01:13:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:55:44 -0700 Received: from 63.105.21.223 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 07:55:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.105.21.223] X-Originating-Email: [damocles_schwert@hotmail.com] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 07:55:43 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2003 07:55:44.0196 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDDD2840:01C32B37] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Kevin Regamey wrote: >I thought the whole ducking thing had been cleared up... > >Ducking opp = Ducking >Ducking same = Weaving >Diving opp = Zulu >Diving same = Diving > >This seems to me to be the most straight-forward way of naming these moves. > Alpine is just adding more ingredients to a pot that's already >overflowing. Amen to that. I have never had a problem understanding where the duck lay in a move just by hearing ducking x or weaving x. I do, however have a lot of trouble keeping up with all the bloody concept names y'all keep inflicting on me. -Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 5 04:38:50 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h55BcoCu014248 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 04:38:50 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h55Bcofq014246 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 04:38:50 -0700 Message-Id: <200306051138.h55Bcofq014246@llic.net> X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from [66.81.56.44] by web40806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 04:23:11 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 04:23:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Lon Smith Subject: Re: [freestyle] Motion (was New moves for move list) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Hello Listers, I think of motion as a paradox illusioning far dyno. It's a 5 add. The Breakdown: Refraction=3 Dyno=4 dexing refraction=4 dexing dyno=5 Whatever. I'll judge it as a five in competition if I judge again. It's hard to say. Lon From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 9 17:27:54 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5A0RsCu030455 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:27:54 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5A0RssS030453 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:27:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from x9s5x9 (datelb-1-5-137.dialup.vol.cz [212.20.102.62]) by majordomo.vol.cz (8.12.6p2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h59I6mva015585 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:06:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from moglum@volny.cz) Message-ID: <200306092006470060.000C24FA@smtp.volny.cz> In-Reply-To: <1054790148.3eded2040e539@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> References: <1054790148.3eded2040e539@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.20.01.01 (3) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:06:47 +0200 From: Vojta Polak To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Penske Hit Legfreezer First? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id h59I6pCu012975 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wow, I read this list for a while already, but I don't remember reading this. Anyway I've hit this move only 4 times or so, for the first time in September 2002 So I guess it is you, Jim, who deserves credit for inventing this move. If you come up with another name, let me know. Moglum *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 4.6.2003 at 22:15 Jeremy Mirken wrote: >I was diggin' thru the annals of my email and I found a true GEM: > >"Yo Freestylers!! > >I've been messing around with a new set lately. Its a frigid osis nuclear. >Start by doing a left foot osis, set straight up instead of scooping >through. Then bring your right leg around the bag from out to in like a >nuclear. So far the only thing I've hit out of it is butterfly (frigid >paradox legbeater). Anyone else hitting this? > >shred on, Jim Penske > >P.S. the easiest five for me is toe set quadruple ducking toe stall." > >That's right folks. This means that Jim Penske hit what is know known as >"legfreezer," most recently named and executed by Moglum of footbag.cz, on >Fri, >18 Jan 2002 01:15:26. Does this mean that Penske's completion of the move >predates Moglum's? I find it interesting that Penske never voiced that he >hit >this move. > >Jeremy Mirken >-- >Jeremy Mirken >hackman@umail.ucsb.edu e Vojta Polak moglum@footbag.cz www.footbag.cz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 9 17:30:39 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5A0UdCu030628 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:30:39 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5A0UdhC030626 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:30:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 17:33:29 -0700 Received: from 210.164.1.71 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 00:33:28 GMT X-Originating-IP: [210.164.1.71] X-Originating-Email: [keninjapan02@hotmail.com] Reply-To: KenSomolinos@footbag.org From: "Ken Somolinos" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:33:28 +0900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2003 00:33:29.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[40329620:01C32BC3] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi shredders, This thread is dedicated to discussion of problems with Sick 3 competitions. For the purposes of this thread, I am starting off with 2 related problems I have recently thought about. I will number them for easier future reference. Problem I I recently read online that Eli Piltz won a sick 3 with blurry drifter-mullet-butterfly. This got me to thinking, what `counts` in a sick 3? I think right now only guiltless tricks are counted (the merit of this rule should be another thread). But if a butterfly at the end of a combo is counted, that would mean the butterfly at the start of a combo is counted as well, correct? But think about this: If you are on stage about to do a big three, many pros find it just as easy to start a clipper based trick from a clipper as from a butterfly. In fact, some pros find it easier to start off a butterfly, for `push,` like with a blurry trick. Now imagine this. If I do: butterfly-blurry drifter-mullet-big apple, and I hit the combo, I will get credit for blurry drifter-mullet-big apple. Fair enough. But if after the mullet I realize I can`t hit the big apple and I just hand catch the bag, I still get credit for butterfly-blurry drifter-mullet. Now picture this. If I do: clipper-blurry drifter-mullet-big apple, and I hit the combo, I get credit for a big 3. But if after the mullet I hand catch, I don`t get credit for a big three. So by starting a clipper-based trick with a butterfly (instead of a clipper) the competitor gets an `insurance` extra trick, which will bail him out if he cant hit his third (4th if you count the butterfly) trick, but wont count against him if he does hit his last trick. Does this seem unfair/inconsistent to anybody else? By starting a string with a butterfly, there is no added risk, but a much higher reward. Problem II At worlds last year Vasek hit some sick3 combo and tacked on a ps whirl at the end. For the purposes of this discussion, lets say the combo was blurry whirl-ps whirl-mobius-ps whirl (even if it wasnt, this will be the example). Is there a rule for which combo should be counted? Is the 4th trick always automatically discounted? Because if there is no set rule for which tricks should be counted, then that single combo can be viewed as two separate, valid big 3 combos (bl whirl-ps whirl-mobius, OR as ps whirl-mobius-ps whirl). I see this as a big problem, because for the price of a single try (of the 8 attempts given, this was counted as a Single attempt), he doubled his chances. For example, if you are given 8 attempts to hit a sick 3 combo, and you hit a sick 3 every time, that gives you 8 attempts to win. But, if everytime you hit a 4 trick combo instead, you all of a sudden have 16 attempts to win. The problems multiply if you hit a longer combo. If you hit a 5 trick combo as one of your attempts, you now have 3 countable `sick 3` combos, and you just paid the price of one attempt. Conclusion: 1. I personally feel that the butterfly at the start of a Sick 3 combo should not be counted under any circumstances. But then, what to do about butterflies in the middle or `end` of combos? 2. We need a consistent rule to determine what part of a combo counts for sick 3 (ie, anything after the 3rd trick does not count). What do you all think? It`d be nice to get this officially resolved before worlds. See you then. My two yen, Ken CF Somolinos From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 9 17:31:56 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5A0VsCu030684 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:31:54 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5A0Vs48030682 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:31:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: (qmail 22975 invoked by uid 65534); 5 Jun 2003 21:05:15 -0000 Message-ID: <20030605210515.22972.qmail@arnold.mailbox.hu> From: "Gergo Csallo" Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:05:15 +0200 To: freestyle@footbag.org X-Mailer: Mailbox Webmail MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id h55L5HCu012756 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, these are okay: > alpine = ducking between two dexes. > amazon = zulu between two dexes. BUT, as far as I know, and please, correct me if I am wrong, ARCTIC refers to frigidosis set pixie. > arctic = diving between two dexes. Arctic = FRIGIDOSIS > SAME IN (dex) > ... PS: Arctic set came up on the Hungarian forum a some time ago, and Vojta was given credit for naming this set... (Just like Frozen for frigidosis atomic)... Never mind, it's all cool :) Gergo Csallo mrg European Footbag Championships July 18-20., Frankfurt, Germany World Footbag Championships July 28. - August 3., Prague, Czech Republic For more footbag events: http://www.footbag.org/events/ From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 9 17:34:52 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5A0YqCu030941 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:34:52 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5A0YqLj030939 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:34:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"stHo5BQddtEjcrVLw9PkWzy7TLovxytdTnvClQW5ZpjiJbkmfV1oCg==">; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 10:28:02 PDT Received: (from flutefreak7@juno.com) by m22.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HZW68VW6; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 10:28:02 PDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:27:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Message-ID: <20030605.132728.1924.0.flutefreak7@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,19-20,28-33,37-38,42-49,54-55,60-64 From: Brett N Ables X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (****) FORGED_JUNO_RCVD X-Spam-Flag: YES >But.. what is an alpine >smog? is it a pixie ducking double legover or a frantic ducking legover? >there are 3 components? FAILURE OF TERM!!! >In response to Sam's post regard alpine's use in a >three dex setting I was understand that the alpine >meant a duck after the set. While we are basically sketching out new ideas and concepts, I thought I'd throw an insight of mine on the floor. Remember what Sunil had to say about defining which dex a "symposium" applies to. It was a mouthful of stuff, because symposium could actually apply to more than one dex, or there could be two separate symposiums in a move, but this complexity was at least made clear through Sunil's equally complex naming system with greek letters to describe the symposium, like what I think was his gamma symposium clownface, or walrus? That may be wrong...sorry Sunil....but the usage is what I'm getting at. you could have the alpha, beta, delta, gamma, just as Sunil proposed, to stand for which dex the duck/dive/zulu/weave comes after. (they would be added onto the alpine component) Of course the greek letter has to either be decided to come before or after the corresponding numbered dex in the move, and I say after because if you have a duck that comes before everything, it's just "ducking," and so alpine doesn't apply, thus the Greek system couldn't apply. Stepping ducking osis, what some might have once called a ducking torque, can now be called an alpine torque, because it is obvious in a torque where to differentiate between the set and the downtime component. >But.. what is an alpine >smog? is it a pixie ducking double legover or a frantic ducking legover? >there are 3 components? FAILURE OF TERM!!! Here we have three components, and for complexity's sake lets assume a duck could be thrown in before or after any of the dexs and it still remains a smog with a duck in it somewhere....here's a proposal for clarifying: WEAVING SMOG = weave > all three dexes (the duck would actually become a weave, a truly ducking smog would actually be ducking haze, or more likely a ducking flurry, since you probably would double dex the first two dexes instead of mirage (plant) > dlo) ALPHA ALPINE SMOG = pixie > duck > dlo BETA ALPINE SMOG = frantic set > duck > legover DELTA ALPINE SMOG = the entire alpine is uptime > duck > toe stall These four examples show some insane things being done to accommodate the duck, but I'm just trying to throw out the concept of using the Greek letters to define the location of a duck when alpine is added to a move with 3 dexes or more, in which the uptime could include various numbers of dexes. This is a complicated system, but when a move gets this complicated and is then hit, your obviously dealing with someone who's dedicated to the sport, and as I'm sure Sunil could testify, is willing to add a word to their phat move to clarify just how phat it is, or how it's different from the phat move they invented last week. What do ya'll think? "It's all Greek to me!" Pain is Temporary Bables From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 11 01:00:55 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5B80tTZ014903 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:00:55 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5B80tX1014899 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:00:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:29:49 -0700 Received: from 139.134.57.153 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:29:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.134.57.153] X-Originating-Email: [lizard_king207@hotmail.com] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:29:49 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2003 04:29:49.0432 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDEA8780:01C32F08] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Look, just saying these are physically possible, only one is an alpine smog. A frantic legover is not a smog, a smog is a pixie set downtime dlo. An uptime smog could be seen as a smog, but it cannot be alpine since there is no dex after the duck. Alpine only refers to moves that can be broken into a uptime set and a downtime component with a duck/dive in the middle. I don't know if it necessarily has to be a dex uptime and downtime, but it has to be something. I guess you could call the delta version an alpine frantic fairy toe, but you can still work out where the dex occurs since frantic and fairy are both up time components, most likely you'd give a name to the set (frantic fairy) shall we say Gamma and call the move alpine gamma toe. But many people would still see this as incorrect usage of alpine since it generally refers to a ducking/diving version of an already named move. So you would really first need to name the move frantic fairy set toe stall - lets call it Theta, and then the ducking version would be called (in a semi component name, not necessarily its common/"official" name) alpine theta. Using the term alpine theta, would show that you already new what a "Theta" was and only someone else who knew that a theta was a gamma set toe stall would know what you're talking about. I challenge everybody out there to come up with a real or theoretical move that cannot be understood with the alpine version. (note, you must give this move a name yourself if it is theoretical) I hope I didn't make it sound even more complicated, it's a very very simple concept Jeremy >From: Brett N Ables >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine >Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:27:28 -0400 >ALPHA ALPINE SMOG = pixie > duck > dlo > >BETA ALPINE SMOG = frantic set > duck > legover > >DELTA ALPINE SMOG = the entire alpine is uptime > duck > toe stall From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 11 00:59:28 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5B7xSTZ014810 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:59:28 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5B7xSL8014808 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:59:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: (qmail 13604 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2003 06:36:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO KYZOKU) ([64.81.81.122]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Jun 2003 06:36:01 -0000 Message-ID: <000801c32f1a$962fb530$0200a8c0@KYZOKU> From: "Chris Pinkus" To: References: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:36:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > 2. We need a consistent rule to determine what part of a combo counts for > sick 3 (ie, anything after the 3rd trick does not count). > > What do you all think? I think we should make a judgement call on whether the butterfly was 'purposeful'. if a pro starts with it, chances are it's unintended. but if a tiltless player hits butterfly > pdx mirage > drifter, then it should definitely be counted. this rule should be good enough, because sick 3 is a judgement call anyway. the first move that is 'semi-difficult' for the player should be counted as the first move (eg. butterfly > butterfly > blurry drifter > ps whirl > butterfly. the blurry drifter is the start of the combo). Chris Pinkus From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 11 19:16:30 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5C2GTi0028917 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:16:29 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5C2GTW5028915 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:16:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:57:20 -0700 Received: from 63.105.21.223 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:57:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.105.21.223] X-Originating-Email: [damocles_schwert@hotmail.com] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:57:19 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jun 2003 08:57:20.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[77436940:01C32FF7] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ken Somolinos wrote: >This thread is dedicated to discussion of problems with Sick 3 >competitions. ... This got me to thinking, what `counts` in a sick 3? My opinion: whatever level you are competing at there is a borderline trick level (tiltless, guiltless, genuine, tripless, whatever). An attempt begins when you hit a guiltless trick (or once again whatever level you're playing at) and ends when you guilt or drop. As for the question of starting with a buffer butterfly, at the open level I don't think butterfly, osis or paradox mirage should count anyway. -Andrew From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 11 20:40:05 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5C3e4u3000792 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:40:04 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5C3e4LX000790 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:40:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:54:52 -0700 Received: from 68.74.65.88 by by1fd.bay1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:54:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.74.65.88] X-Originating-Email: [mufreestyle@hotmail.com] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:54:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2003 01:54:52.0194 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D281820:01C33085] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org wow... You people... :) Um, I think the longhand versions are so much friendlier, and since when did the greek alphabet become a notation series in footbag? I am REALLY out of it these days. Hi to all my old friends... Yes, I am alive, but the bag has touched my feet only on a rare occasion these days. Take it easy everyone, Ian >From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine >Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:29:49 +0000 > >Look, just saying these are physically possible, only one is an alpine >smog. A frantic legover is not a smog, a smog is a pixie set downtime dlo. > An uptime smog could be seen as a smog, but it cannot be alpine since >there is no dex after the duck. Alpine only refers to moves that can be >broken into a uptime set and a downtime component with a duck/dive in the >middle. > >I don't know if it necessarily has to be a dex uptime and downtime, but it >has to be something. > >I guess you could call the delta version an alpine frantic fairy toe, but >you can still work out where the dex occurs since frantic and fairy are >both up time components, most likely you'd give a name to the set (frantic >fairy) shall we say Gamma and call the move alpine gamma toe. > >But many people would still see this as incorrect usage of alpine since it >generally refers to a ducking/diving version of an already named move. So >you would really first need to name the move frantic fairy set toe stall - >lets call it Theta, and then the ducking version would be called (in a semi >component name, not necessarily its common/"official" name) alpine theta. > >Using the term alpine theta, would show that you already new what a "Theta" >was and only someone else who knew that a theta was a gamma set toe stall >would know what you're talking about. > >I challenge everybody out there to come up with a real or theoretical move >that cannot be understood with the alpine version. (note, you must give >this move a name yourself if it is theoretical) > >I hope I didn't make it sound even more complicated, it's a very very >simple concept > >Jeremy > > >>From: Brett N Ables >>To: freestyle@footbag.org >>Subject: Re: [freestyle] Alpine >>Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:27:28 -0400 > >>ALPHA ALPINE SMOG = pixie > duck > dlo >> >>BETA ALPINE SMOG = frantic set > duck > legover >> >>DELTA ALPINE SMOG = the entire alpine is uptime > duck > toe stall > From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 11 20:55:25 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5C3tOu3002176 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:55:24 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5C3tOEY002174 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:55:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:39:24 -0700 Received: from 68.108.143.214 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:39:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.108.143.214] X-Originating-Email: [roughkid1@hotmail.com] From: "Loren Baum" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Vegas Jam reservations cutoff THIS FRIDAY (6/13) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:39:23 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2003 08:39:24.0093 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB8276D0:01C32F2B] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Guys, This is just a final reminder that the cutoff date for the room reservations is the 13th, like, a couple days. So if you're coming, make those reservations now. Final announcements about the kick spots will be made over the next week so keep an eye out. I'm getting really hyped and so is the rest of my club and I hope all of you that are coming are as well. Its gonna be one to remember. So come!! All details here: http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1053481644 Hope to see you in a month. (The Vegas Jam is July 4-6, in Las Vegas, New Mexico, USA). Loren Baum Las Vegas Zombies From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 11 22:42:46 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5C5gku3007386 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:42:46 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5C5gkjT007384 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:42:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:22:57 -0700 Received: from 66.222.195.18 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 05:22:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.222.195.18] X-Originating-Email: [ripwalker69@hotmail.com] From: "Rob Fuller" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:22:57 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2003 05:22:57.0544 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF015080:01C330A2] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think you should have to announce what you are going to hit before you attempt it. You can change it at any time you want. But if you don't hit what you say you were going to you didn't hit anything. It's sick 3, not sick 2 and a bail. Also... People should be permitted to do a few butterflys before to get some rythym going, if they ask. I wouldn't do anything if they didn't ask and did it, but it should be a common courtesy. RoB From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 11 23:18:58 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5C6Iwu3008804 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:18:58 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5C6IwY5008802 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:18:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from inetsrv.callplus.co.nz (not verified[127.0.0.1]) by inetsrv.callplus.co.nz with MailMarshal (4,0,9,0) id ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:59:01 +1200 Received: by inetsrv.callplus.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2CBD8DMQ>; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:59:01 +1200 Message-ID: <31E1140DFAD2D54FB91BAD8D475EC17C0182B3E2@inetsrv.callplus.co.nz> From: Adrian Dick To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:59:00 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) I agree completely. >From a judging perspective I think competitors should have to name their >three tricks before each attempt. At NZ Nationals I was scratching my head over half the crazyness that was being hit infront of me, and had to call the people back and ask what it was that they hit. Whether they prefix or suffix their sick 3 with any other tricks is irrelevant, although I guess a commonsense rule of no more than three tricks either side of the combo would prevent anyone going crazy. I agree that sometimes you need to do a couple of butterflys to get your rhythm before going huge. AD -----Original Message----- From: Rob Fuller [mailto:ripwalker69@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2003 5:23 p.m. To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions I think you should have to announce what you are going to hit before you attempt it. You can change it at any time you want. But if you don't hit what you say you were going to you didn't hit anything. It's sick 3, not sick 2 and a bail. Also... People should be permitted to do a few butterflys before to get some rythym going, if they ask. I wouldn't do anything if they didn't ask and did it, but it should be a common courtesy. RoB From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 13:56:07 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CKu7u3008732 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:56:07 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CKu7U9008730 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:56:07 -0700 Message-Id: <200306122056.h5CKu7U9008730@llic.net> X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from [67.69.201.251] by web41202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:36:45 PDT Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:36:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellis Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Just to clarify, the Big 3 at the Challenge was judged by the crowd, who appreciated the fact that I hit 3 tricks my first try, while others didn't hit at all or took the full 7 tries. Secondly, I hit Blurry Whirl > PS Whirl > PS Whirl on my 3rd attempt, which sealed up, or even nullified the crappy combo from my first try. I know you didn't mean anything personal, I'm just shedding a little light. The funny thing is that I was actually going for a regular Tomahawk, and when I found myself mid-air doing it Symposium, I was a little distracted by my own confusion, and thus proceeded to bail to Butterfly. The crowd roared, so I played it off. :-) About the points you make, I think it's already judged exactly how your conclusion proposes. A player's first "real" trick is what starts your combo, same as in Shred:30. It's up to the judges to determine the first real trick, and from my own experience, we've never even considered Butterfly as a "real" trick. If one hits 5 tricks in a Big 3 contest, the 2 extras don't count. I think Vasek did it just for show, which I think is ok. Similarly, there is a little amendment I think should be instated into Shred:30 judging, regarding when to start the clock and counting score. I'd say the clock should start on your first add, and your shred score should start off that first contact, but not including the first contact itself. So if you start your Shred with Leg Beater, the clock starts on the toe stall, and the score starts counting with the Leg Beater. Also, if you start with Toe stall > Clipper > Ripwalk, then the time starts on the Toe stall and the Clipper counts as your first real move. I think this would eliminate the discrepency we've had in the past. Sincerely, Ellis Piltz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 13:57:11 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CKvBu3008774 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:57:11 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CKvBI7008771 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:57:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: (qmail 6770 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2003 19:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dell) ([216.27.176.244]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Jun 2003 19:23:36 -0000 Message-ID: <009701c33117$ff492b60$f4b01bd8@sepior> From: "Eric Wulff" To: References: <000801c32f1a$962fb530$0200a8c0@KYZOKU> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:22:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is a sick 3 contest. I like the idea of some guideline for having a few tricks to get a rythum going. However, if a player starts with a butterfly... this is clearly the first contact and not part of a sick 3. Starting a combo is one thing. Finishing is another. If you can't hit a butterfly or paradoc mirage out of or in between 2 Sick moves than these moves weren't executed properly. A butterfly to two sick moves to a diving hand catch is a sick 2 and not a sick 3 in my opinion. And remember, the original sick 3 contest rules had a sick one, two and 3 winner. Also, the event is not for beginners nor intermediate players. Nor is the intent of the event to show of *routine moves* generally executed for reasons of choreography/rythum and/or filler and/or save/bail. That is what butterfly is good for in routines. Therefore, butterfly in a sick 3 contest is 1 of two things... 1. a first contact. As in... we can rarely start a SICK combo directly from a hand toss so a clipper or butterfly to get it going is fine. But, I don't like the idea of possibly including the butterfly as part of the combo when it's the first move. It's too easy. But finishing with a butterfly is certainly harder then finishing with a hand catch. Won't help your score much but it will give you a chance if everyone else fails to hit their 2nd move strong enough to control a butterfly out of it. 2. a bail If a player bails to a butterfly in a Sick 3 contest then it should certainly count. And... if the competition reflects that this is still the best combo then so be it. The other players must of had an off day too, they're not quite to sick 3 level yet or... the other 2 tricks were just that cool! :) Eric From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 14:00:52 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CL0qu3009012 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:00:52 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CL0qmf009010 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:00:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.clem.mscd.edu by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.2 #30655) id <0HGD06901X6EFA@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:06:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webmail ([147.153.1.20]) by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V6.2 #30655) with ESMTP id <0HGD089MSX5U4C@clem.mscd.edu>; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:05:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:59:35 -0600 From: Brad Kaplan Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions To: freestyle , Rob Fuller Message-id: <3EE7775D@webmail> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-WebMail-UserID: kaplanb X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002971 X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >===== Original Message From Rob Fuller ===== >I think you should have to announce what you are going to hit before you >attempt it. Absolutely! Some of the stuff people are attempting is so sick it drives judges batty. Every combo should be taped for instant video review, but the judges have an easier time if they know what to look for. >You can change it at any time you want. But if you don't hit >what you say you were going to you didn't hit anything. It's sick 3, not >sick 2 and a bail. I can't say as I agree 100% with this part (though who cares). I think a Sick 3 should be GENUINE. That is to say that if you bail to a butterfly, osis or pdx mirage then the combo is bunk. However, let's say you are going to hit a smog, but you brain fart and hit smear. Well it's still a respectable trick and while not sick it is better than butterfly, osis, or pdx mirage. >People should be permitted to do a few butterflys before to get some rythym I think two is a good limit. If it takes more than that then it should be dumped. I also think Sick 3 and Big 1 (sick 1) should be done like a battle. Put the players in a half circle and let them go free-for-all (being respectful that everyone gets enough trys) and let the crowd see some sort of head to head competition. Later, Brad From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 14:12:51 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CLCou3010300 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:12:50 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CLCoLH010298 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:12:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:12:16 -0700 Received: from 144.139.85.52 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:12:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [144.139.85.52] X-Originating-Email: [lizard_king207@hotmail.com] From: "Jeremy O'Wheel" To: ripwalker69@hotmail.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:12:15 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2003 13:12:16.0190 (UTC) FILETIME=[3EDDB5E0:01C330E4] X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org But I've seen many players (in general shred) bail from a move and still hit something hard. If someone bails out of the duck in an alpine witchdoctor but still hits a witchdoctor (without the duck) are you saying that it doesn't count as a trick? If they hit Witchdoctor>smog>assassin - but said they were going to hit alpine witchdoctor then it doesn' count? Nobody sets out of anything other than a clip, toe or butterfly and at most tournaments these days a six three involving any of those moves would not win, so what's the problem? Just limit them to the first three tricks they hit (apart from those sets/ warm ups) >From: "Rob Fuller" >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions >Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:22:57 -0600 > >I think you should have to announce what you are going to hit before you >attempt it. You can change it at any time you want. But if you don't hit >what you say you were going to you didn't hit anything. It's sick 3, not >sick 2 and a bail. > >Also... > >People should be permitted to do a few butterflys before to get some rythym >going, if they ask. I wouldn't do anything if they didn't ask and did it, >but it should be a common courtesy. > > >RoB From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 14:16:20 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CLGJu3010519 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:16:19 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CLGJcU010517 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:16:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3271C3A1C for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 76B58725E; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:28:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Vadim Dukhovny To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Greek alphabet notation (was: Symposium in Multi-dex Moves) Reply-To: dohovenus@planet-save.com X-Originating-Ip: [67.122.113.97] Message-Id: <20030612202844.76B58725E@sitemail.everyone.net> X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dearos listos (flourish), This discussion had been going on for a while on the forums, and now seems like as good a time as any to somewhat formalize it on the list. Here is my opinion on the matter. I am strongly opposed to the implementation of Greek letters in the description of multi-dex moves. I have two principal reasons: 1. The Greek letters aren't natural to us. Even if we were to learn the six initial letters like a catechism, they would only be in footbag use and so we would not be completely fluent, especially not newer players. I mean, besides the Greeks. Example: Sunil: I just hit an Alpha Gamma Bisymposium Pogo Paradox Miraging Flail! Vadim: (counts on fingers): Alpha... Beta... Gamma... Even in English, when I am asked what the sixth letter of the alphabet is, I recite it until I get to six, because we simply have no sense of an alphanumerical property in the English alphabet. 2a. It's difficult to put the Greek letters on screen, so we mostly spell out their names, i.e. the written names become quite tedious to write. 2b. When we say these names (cf. Example), we're already out of breath and have to pass the bag because we're too tired to bust out. The answer: Let's just use numbers! Seriously, all electron orbital jokes aside, why don't we say things like 2S 2P to describe something like Backside Symposium Blur (I realize one wouldn't say that because Blur is only two dexes, but you get the point)? We already all know and love "S" and "P" as abbreviations for Symposium and Paradox, respectively, and the numbers would make things ever so much simpler. With all due respect, as "educated" as Greek letters might sound, they are certainly a case of form over function. This is footbag--let's keep our discussion about Blurs, not Laplacian transformations. Regards, Vadim. Locrian for life. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 14:43:18 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CLhHu3012387 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:43:17 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CLhH1o012385 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:43:17 -0700 Message-Id: <200306122143.h5CLhH1o012385@llic.net> X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from rwcrwbc04 (unknown[204.127.197.114](misconfigured sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003061221334901300akplce>; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:33:49 +0000 Received: from [198.239.63.123] by rwcrwbc04; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:33:46 +0000 From: jane-jones@attbi.com To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:33:46 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (May 30 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: amFuZS1qb25lc0BhdHRiaS5jb20= X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Check out the results from CSS4: http://www.footbagshred.com/CSS4/CSS4results.htm There are a couple Big 3's that end bailing to an osis. The results still seem to look as fair as fair can be. In some cases the first 2 tricks were big enough that competitors with bails were able to place higher than some who didn't bail to some BOP trick, but also didn't go as big in the beginning of their combo. Chad's "Scorpion Tail, Blurry Whirl, Osis" rightfully beat my "Torque, Ripwalk, Spinning Osis" - who cares about the osis bail in this case, it seals up the first 2 5-add tricks. 5-5-3 beating a 4-4-4 where all of my 4's were stock (easy) and Chad's scorpion's tail was more worthy than all 3 of my 4's combined. Just thought the CSS4 results would give you guys something tangible to chew apart. See ya in Prague, Jane > But I've seen many players (in general shred) bail from a move and still hit > something hard. If someone bails out of the duck in an alpine witchdoctor > but still hits a witchdoctor (without the duck) are you saying that it > doesn't count as a trick? If they hit Witchdoctor>smog>assassin - but said > they were going to hit alpine witchdoctor then it doesn' count? Nobody sets > out of anything other than a clip, toe or butterfly and at most tournaments > these days a six three involving any of those moves would not win, so what's > the problem? Just limit them to the first three tricks they hit (apart from > those sets/ warm ups) > > > >From: "Rob Fuller" > >To: freestyle@footbag.org > >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions > >Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:22:57 -0600 > > > >I think you should have to announce what you are going to hit before you > >attempt it. You can change it at any time you want. But if you don't hit > >what you say you were going to you didn't hit anything. It's sick 3, not > >sick 2 and a bail. > > > >Also... > > > >People should be permitted to do a few butterflys before to get some rythym > >going, if they ask. I wouldn't do anything if they didn't ask and did it, > >but it should be a common courtesy. > > > > > >RoB From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 15:36:31 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CMaVu3015217 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:36:31 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CMaVpv015215 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:36:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id z.c.12e47ed6 (16109) for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-d17.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.133]) by air-id12.mx.aol.com (v93.13) with ESMTP id MAILINID121-3eed3ee8fdb7133; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:24:56 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:24:55 -0400 From: Damon Mathews To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6FCAE9E3.3C0964C8.0229878D@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org If you have the guts to step into a Sick 3 competition, then you should be a strong enough player to hit 3 sick tricks in a row - NO BAILS. Bails are for circles. Secondly, if you need more than 1 starter delay, warm-up, whatever you want to call it, then you need to practice more for the competition before you enter. Lastly, having tricks pre-defined before you start is the way to go. If you can't hit what's on your list during your sick 3, and the move you hit instead is clearly equal to or larger than your pre-defined trick, then it should be allowed. Later, Damon Mathews From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jun 12 15:41:41 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5CMffu3015532 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:41:41 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5CMffYR015530 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:41:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from PsyKick77@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id z.6.12e9f57e (3842) for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:27:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Windsor Message-ID: <6.12e9f57e.2c1a5848@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:27:20 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) The Only problem i see with the Sick 3 is the name.. to much "sick this" "big that" etc. its like we are trying to be cooler than we are.. In skating they just simply call it "best trick".. I think we should have best trick, and best combo.. best combo has to be at least two tricks, I mean someone could hit three fives, but would that beat out gauntlet to marius?? I don't think the emphasis should be on the combo length but rather the difficulty.. Oh yea and drop the stupid lingo... just call it best this best that.. people like simplicity because its not something they really have to conform too. Eric. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Jun 13 11:49:37 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5DInbu3029705 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:49:37 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5DInb7O029703 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:49:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: by BKB01-IMS-01.ikon.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:17:10 -0400 Message-ID: <1FC5532D6B96D411874200D0B782DA880915DEBE@phl01-msx-04.ikon.org> From: "Riefer, Robert" To: freestyle Subject: [freestyle] Sick 3 and Shred 30 formats (Was: Problems with Sick 3 competitions) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:17:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Kaplan [mailto:kaplanb@mscd.edu] > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 4:00 PM > > I also think Sick 3 and Big 1 (sick 1) should be done like a > battle. Put the > players in a half circle and let them go free-for-all (being > respectful that > everyone gets enough trys) and let the crowd see some sort of > head to head > competition. On this note, the formats I was planning on trying out (for shred 30 and sick 3) at my next event is detailed below. It's really simple, but effective (I think). Start with the shred 30 The idea here is constant play.. We have the players seeded and in line ready to shred.. First player goes up and does his/her thing for the alotted 30 seconds. Once s/he is done there is a ten second grace period (music does not stop during this period). During the grace period the next player runs to center stage and then starts up. Judges have to be on their game to count real time, but video verification is needed for shred 30 anyways, so it's not a huge deal. Again, this is simple. I notice that (non-footbag) spectators are generally lost during the "switchover" period. This will eliminate that. Also, the whole thing goes more quickly so we can all get back to shredding again. For shred 30, sort of similar (spectator-centric) concept.. First X players (how many ever can comfortably fit in the "stage" area) are lined up next to eachother. Player 1 goes for his/her combo (hits it or misses it), then after a couple of seconds Player 2 does the same and so on. At the end of the line of players, the first player goes again until everyone has had their alotted number of tries. Some will argue that they like getting all their tries right in a row. There's some validity to that argument, but think of it from the spectator's point of view.. The visual variety represented by seeing a new combo and a new player every couple of seconds and then looping back around again would be really fun to watch. Last note on competition.. I wish more events (this pertains to small/mid sized events mostly) were only one round long (at really big events, more than one round is needed and should be kept). Win it on the first time around and then let's shred. Also, hold the competition early on during the first day of the event. Everyone still gets to compete but we don't have people shying away from shred circles to save their legs.. Plus, most of the best stuff is hit in circles anyhow, so that's what a lot of players really look forward to. Thanks. Bob Riefer Philly Footworks www.philly-footworks.com From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Jun 13 20:23:50 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5E3Nou3017804 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:23:50 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5E3NoIH017802 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:23:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from pd2mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr2so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.109]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HGG007FCBUJ1T@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:18:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml5so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml5so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.149]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HGG00ICZBUJSC@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:18:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (h24-70-216-57.gv.shawcable.net [24.70.216.57]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HGG0064MBUJFE@l-daemon> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:18:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:18:16 -0700 From: Bill Hamilton Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'd like to add the perspective of a spectator to this discussion. At present, I am pleased to hit a string of 2 add moves and am only hitting an occasional 3 add. Obviously my input here is more as a spectator than as a potential competitor. At the Steel City Open this past May, Caleb Abraham did a nice job of announcing what the sick 3 competitors were doing. He announced the tricks they accomplished or were attempting on each attempt. The audience seemed to respond well to seeing the drama of the repeated attempts and knowing a little more of what was happening. After 2 years of watching freestylers I still get lost when watching a combo. You know that non-freestyling spectators are limited in their ability to be drawn into the competition due to lack of knowledge of the moves. Think of how much a good commentator helps pull you into the sports shown on TV, especially the sports you seldom see, like during the Olympics. (No, this isn't a plug for footbag in the Olympics) In light of this, I suggest the following format for spectator appeal: 1. Competitors must name their three tricks prior to the competition. Before the beginning of the competition. This will add to the strategy and drama of the competition since you need to pick tricks based on ability to complete and on anticipated competitors combos. It would also take away the advantage of the last competitors choosing an easier combo to assure a win if previous competitors did not complete their tricks. 2. The announcer could announce the combo before and between each attempt for added crowd appeal. An explanation of the moves, their difficulty and the competition placement if successful, would add to the drama for the spectators. 3. Competitors would not get points for a bail, only for the completed tricks. So the pressure is on for a 3 trick run for the best score. I often hear talk of how do we promote the sport and add spectator appeal. If you are looking at changing or clarifying the rules, consider the audience as well as the competitors. Bill Hamilton From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Jun 14 13:00:56 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5EK0uu3019616 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:00:56 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5EK0u0b019614 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:00:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: (qmail 20259 invoked from network); 14 Jun 2003 16:56:48 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO webmail4) ([127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender ) by localhost (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Jun 2003 16:56:48 -0000 Received: from 216.27.176.244 (unverified [216.27.176.244]) by webmail4 (VisualMail 4.0) with WEBMAIL id 20257; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:56:48 +0000 From: Eric Wulff To: freestyle@footbag.org Importance: Normal Sensitivity: Normal Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mintersoft VisualMail, Build 4.0.111601 X-Originating-IP: [216.27.176.244] Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:56:48 +0000 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by llic.net id h5EGunu3010388 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'd like to say that, in my opinion, this is all great stuff. This has been my vision of how to present a sick 3 contest and the closest we came to this was one of the first times we ever ran the event at So Cal with Tu Vu informing the audience of what was attempted each time. I like the idea of competitors registering their trick attempts ahead of time, However, they should have complete control over and be allowed to change them up to the time of their attempt, announce the attempt change to the MC person and then still, if they wind up hitting something else, no matter what it is... it can still count. If a set isn't perfect for one trick and a freestyler is skilled enough to change mid combo to another phat combo that should certainly be allowed and counted. Again, this competition is supposed to more closely reflect circle style kicking so the less rules the better. Needs to be loose and aggressive. But we also want to show it off to an audience. When done well, this event is a huge crowd pleaser and competitor favorite. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Hamilton [mailto:bphamilton@adelphia.net] > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 03:18 AM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] Problems with Sick 3 competitions > > > I'd like to add the perspective of a spectator to this discussion. At > present, I am pleased to hit a string of 2 add moves and am only hitting > an occasional 3 add. Obviously my input here is more as a spectator > than as a potential competitor. > > At the Steel City Open this past May, Caleb Abraham did a nice job of > announcing what the sick 3 competitors were doing. He announced the > tricks they accomplished or were attempting on each attempt. The > audience seemed to respond well to seeing the drama of the repeated > attempts and knowing a little more of what was happening. After 2 years > of watching freestylers I still get lost when watching a combo. You > know that non-freestyling spectators are limited in their ability to be > drawn into the competition due to lack of knowledge From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sat Jun 14 18:29:13 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5F1TCu3003003 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 18:29:12 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5F1TCZm003001 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 18:29:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from I (brat.footbag.org [209.125.90.60]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5F1TCu4002997 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 18:29:12 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@209.125.90.2 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 18:29:09 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Call for official judges at Worlds Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Freestylers, The IFPA World Footbag Championships is seeking qualified judges for the prestigious positions as official staff members of the 2003 World Footbag Championships, July 28-August 3, 2003. All judges must be "certified" before they will be placed on a judging panel. Please reply privately to me *immediately* if you are willing and interested in being an official IFPA freestyle judge. We are using the "Olympic-style" system that we used last year, so we need qualified judges who will be on staff to judge all of a given event. Only reply if you're interested in volunteering. I can explain more after I get a list of interested people. Before you reply, please consider whether or not you fit the bill. Here's a quick questionnaire you should take to see whether you're a candidate: ----- Qualifications for IFPA Freestyle Judges: ----------------------------------------- * Note: you must answer "yes" to at least 6 of the following to be considered. Please include your answers to the questions below in your e-mail. (1) Are you familiar with the official IFC formula-based rules system? This is the system we used at Worlds every year until last year. (Last year we used the "new" Olympic-style system which we're going to be using again this year.) (2) Have you judged freestyle at any of the last 4 World Championships? (3) Have you judged freestyle at any of the following other events in the last 3 years? (Euros, East Coast, Western Regionals, Funtastik) (4) Are you an "expert" at technical freestyle, either as a player or as an aficionado? In other words, can you hit and/or recognize a large number of 3-, 4-, and 5-add tricks? [It doesn't matter if you can't hit them, as long as you can recognize them.] (5) Can you commit to judging each player based on his/her performance during the actual competition, not based on how you may know they *can* play? (6) Can you commit to judging each player's routine without regard for his or her country of original or citizenship? This competition is not about countries, or even areas/clubs. This is about individuals. A judge for this event must be able to set aside everything else, and focus on the routine itself. (7) Can you commit to sitting through (with breaks) all routines in a given category? We will have the same judges throughout a particular competition. So, for example, if you're chosen as a judge for the Women's division, you'll judge each round of Women's singles and Women's doubles (if it happens). In the case of intermediate, this may be broken up by pools (we may have two sets of judges). But if not, as a judge for intermediate, you must be willing to judge every pool, every round, as you'll be on staff (just like the rest of the event staff who have to be there throughout, except you'd only have to do intermediate -- not open or women's open). (8) Can you commit to arriving at your judging assignments well in advance of the particular round(s) you're judging, and be diligent about knowing when and where you're expected to be throughout the event? (9) Are you willing to treat "technical merit" and "artistic interpretation" entirely separately as you are judging, and not try to directly assign the total score you for a player, nor the final rank? A good judge should not let his/her opinion of the relative importance of the two come into play. The relationships are well defined in the judging system, and if the judge separately judges each category without considering the final score, the software will do the rest. Well-meaning judges who try to second-guess the end results may create erroneous results unintentionally. -- I realize some of these questions are "loaded". Please don't debate with me -- I simply won't have time to respond. It would be *great* if I got 20 volunteers from this e-mail. I will follow up with the respondants as soon as I can to let you know what the next steps are. It'd help a lot of you would be willing to judge either at the U.S. East Coasts, or at the European Championships, to add to your qualifications. And I sincerely appreciate anyone who is willing to volunteer for these prestigious positions, even if you don't end up being appointed. Finally, the cut-off date for responses is this Monday night, June 16th. Starting then, I'll go the second round with the people who are interested. Please note, we have a committee which will be appointing the judges -- it's not just me. The committee is at http://www.footbag.org/groups/list/worlds03-judges Thanks. Steve From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 16 16:41:32 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5GNfWPk008281 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:41:32 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5GNfWf6008279 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:41:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from 213.130.24.221 (account workm [213.130.24.221] verified) by ua.fm (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 24370951 for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:34:28 +0300 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:36:20 +0400 From: Kushnir Yura X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62q) Personal Reply-To: workm@ua.fm X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7910697320.20030617023620@ua.fm> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Sonic set help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello. How to make a Sonic set (CLIP > (BACK) SPIN [BOD] > (BACK) SPIN [BOD] >)? I should turn 2 times in the same direction or not? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wed Jun 18 10:56:26 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5IHuPPk007932 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:56:25 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5IHuPTR007930 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:56:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from PsyKick77@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id r.a6.391003ed (4410); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:01:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Windsor Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:01:23 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sonic set help To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) In a message dated 6/16/2003 4:45:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, workm@ua.fm writes: > Hello. > How to make a Sonic set (CLIP >(BACK) SPIN [BOD] >(BACK) SPIN [BOD] >)? > I should turn 2 times in the same direction or not? Actually you are going to spin and look at the bag, then do a spinning move in the opposite direction. Its basically like "peeking spinning".. Sonic osis would be (clip > (Back) SPIN [bod]{spot bag} > (switch directions)(Back) SPIN [bod] > same osis.. If you do sonic osis the set foot and the catch foot should be the same foot. If you do sonic whirl, or sonic butterfly the set foot and the catch foot should be different. Its a weird trick and I don't think peeking should get an extra add. "Peeking peeking" (double peek) osis should not be a 5 add to me. oh yea and double peeking isn't to be confused with sonic. some people think "peeking peeking" is sonic, or that double spinning is sonic, its neither. sonic is simply peeking spinning.. does that make sense? Nobody ever really does peeking haha.. oh yea randy hit sonic torque, or could be called peeking mobius. (set foot and catch foot the same). hope this helps Eric Windsor From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mon Jun 23 20:07:08 2003 Received: from llic.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5O378dI032382 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:07:08 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) id h5O378n6032380 for freestyle-outgoing@list.footbag.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:07:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: llic.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from I (dhcp217.llic.net [209.125.90.217]) by llic.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4) with ESMTP id h5O377dJ032376 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:07:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@209.125.90.2 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:07:04 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Re: Call for official judges at Worlds Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: Spam Scanner (MIMEDefang 2.21, footbag edition) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Okay, folks, thanks to the *2* of you who replied (and I mean that -- THANKS). Where are the rest of you? Don't you want to be part of the event, and give something back to the community at the same time? Last year a lot of people had *really* strong opinions about the judging results. How can I help address this issue if I can't even rally together 10-12 of the top judges in the sport? I know many of you will be there and are qualified and you know who you are. And you're probably waiting for me to call you. I'm not going to. This is your call. I can't wait 'til the last minute. I need your commitment now. Please reply. Find the qualifications, as I sent them out last week, below. I need answers within 24 hours. But if you miss that window, that's fine, just *let me know*. Volunteers are the life blood of footbag. Be one today. * By the way -- all official judges at Worlds will be considered "staff" for the entire tournament; you'll get a T-shirt and whatever else official staff members get. That includes the right to see all the final events for free (yes, we will be charging admission for some of the key events). Also, we'll plan the event so judges get breaks at regular intervals (between pools) and we will work with the judging panels to make it flow as well as possible. This should be a positive experience and give you some amount of prestige to say you were part of the official judging panel for Worlds. Please do it if you are qualified. Thanks. Steve Qualifications for IFPA Freestyle Judges: ----------------------------------------- * Note: you must answer "yes" to at least 6 of the following to be considered. Please include your answers to the questions below in your e-mail. (1) Are you familiar with the official IFC formula-based rules system? This is the system we used at Worlds every year until last year. (Last year we used the "new" Olympic-style system which we're going to be using again this year.) (2) Have you judged freestyle at any of the last 4 World Championships? (3) Have you judged freestyle at any of the following other events in the last 3 years? (Euros, East Coast, Western Regionals, Funtastik) (4) Are you an "expert" at technical freestyle, either as a player or as an aficionado? In other words, can you hit and/or recognize a large number of 3-, 4-, and 5-add tricks? [It doesn't matter if you can't hit them, as long as you can recognize them.] (5) Can you commit to judging each player based on his/her performance during the actual competition, not based on how you may know they *can* play? (6) Can you commit to judging each player's routine without regard for his or her country of original or citizenship? This competition is not about countries, or even areas/clubs. This is about individuals. A judge for this event must be able to set aside everything else, and focus on the routine itself. (7) Can you commit to sitting through (with breaks) all routines in a given category? We will have the same judges throughout a particular competition. So, for example, if you're chosen as a judge for the Women's division, you'll judge each round of Women's singles and Women's doubles (if it happens). In the case of intermediate, this may be broken up by pools (we may have two sets of judges). But if not, as a judge for intermediate, you must be willing to judge every pool, every round, as you'll be on staff (just like the rest of the event staff who have to be there throughout, except you'd only have to do intermediate -- not open or women's open). (8) Can you commit to arriving at your judging assignments well in advance of the particular round(s) you're judging, and be diligent about knowing when and where you're expected to be throughout the event? (9) Are you willing to treat "technical merit" and "artistic interpretation" entirely separately as you are judging, and not try to directly assign the total score you for a player, nor the final rank? A good judge should not let his/her opinion of the relative importance of the two come into play. The relationships are well defined in the judging system, and if the judge separately judges each category without considering the final score, the software will do the rest. Well-meaning judges who try to second-guess the end results may create erroneous results unintentionally.