From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 01:48:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA10890 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:48:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA10763 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:40:50 GMT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:45:08 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re:Freestyle In DC (past tense) Message-ID: <19961014.194508.3302.0.dervish@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Oh, Darren. You sucker. Well, it all went down yesterday afternoon when we arrived at the juggling capitol. I am, of course, referring to the hours of unbelievable shred. The Participants Included: Jason and Ann and Vince and Tu and Tuan and Eric and Jim and Ann and Greg and Me and Dan and Alex and Ethan. It was awesome. I finally got to see Tuan pull symposium eggbeater and I now have set my sights higher once again. I'd mention more hein combos(thanks Steve) but to be brutally frank it was all to fast to really see. Thanks to everyone for coming and I hope we can do it again real soon. JPers From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 18:59:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA13530 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:59:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA13526 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:59:41 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13523) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA13521 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:59:40 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA12929 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:00:52 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA25198 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:02:27 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Heh heh, now that we're off by ourselves, let's BATTLE IT OUT! Okay. First of all, I claim that a "paradox guay" is worth 3 adds. I've said this since the beginning and most people disagree with me. Let me explain: Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity (paradox style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This is very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body component on the pick-up. Picture paradox drifter, but instead of drifting you just stop short with an inside delay. Carol and I do this trick all the time. It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 19:29:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13733 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:29:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13663 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:23:33 GMT Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:27:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry, Steve, but I agree with you completely. (And it truly pains me to admit that! :) The "paradoxness" of the move occurs before (and up to the point where) the leg passes over the bag. It shouldn't matter which foot catches the bag afterward, it's still paradox. And the name for the blur without that final foot-switch is, of course, the derogatory Slur. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com >---------- >From: Steven L. Goldberg[SMTP:brat@research.apple.com] >Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 1996 2:02 PM >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate > >Heh heh, now that we're off by ourselves, let's BATTLE IT OUT! > >Okay. First of all, I claim that a "paradox guay" is worth 3 adds. >I've >said this since the beginning and most people disagree with me. Let me >explain: > >Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity >(paradox >style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This >is >very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body >component on the pick-up. > >Picture paradox drifter, but instead of drifting you just stop short >with >an inside delay. Carol and I do this trick all the time. > >It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > > Steve > > > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 19:35:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13766 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:35:24 GMT Message-Id: <199610151935.TAA13766@eniac.yak.net.taz> From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate To: brat@research.apple.com (Steven L. Goldberg) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:31:51 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Freestylers, Paradox guay= 3 adds = phat, flowy mcneuver = change up of the paradox mirage staple = Carol does it = gets me on an inside (as opposed to toe) pickup frame of mind (love to set into into symposium mirage-inside pickup) = what about blurry guay? Later, Ethan Tuan Vu RIPS SERIOUS HEIN, as if you all didn't know that already, I just thought I would remind you. No, SERIOUS HEIN, RIDICULOUS, MIND EXPLODING, SOUND BARRIER SHATTERING, CRAZYNESS!!!! pogo voodoo!! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 20:46:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA14043 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:46:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13995 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:40:58 GMT X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:43:38 -0500 To: "Derrick G. Fogle" , footbag@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: RE: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derrick! >The "paradoxness" of the move occurs before (and up to the point where) >the leg passes over the bag. It shouldn't matter which foot catches the >bag afterward, it's still paradox. > >And the name for the blur without that final foot-switch is, of course, >the derogatory Slur. Not so fast. Steve, Paradox Guay is two adds. Period. No switch. Derrick, Slur is already taken. It is the term used when a pogo is done with a pull through rather than a leap over. Sorry guys, no time to argue better than this. Also no time to read the majordomo messages and rework my address book for now. So if any of you footbag net bubba's get this message, then too bad. Ha. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 21:35:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA14198 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:35:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA14194 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:35:35 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14191) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA14189 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:35:35 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA14647 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:29:23 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RAB02072; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:26:36 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:21:09 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Message-ID: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,10-16 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Heh heh, now that we're off by ourselves, let's BATTLE IT OUT! >Okay. First of all, I claim that a "paradox guay" is worth 3 adds. >I've said this since the beginning and most people disagree with me. > Carol and I do this trick all the time. >It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > More importantly, how come 'pdox reverse mirage' is paradox? It's a legover from clipper, bail to other toe... what gives? I think pdox reverse should be entirely different: Clipper set, outside in dexterity with the support leg (like down double) End toe delay, same foot as the set. I don't mind blizzard getting four adds, but , like, what's up wit dat? And while I'm at it, is a paradox add considered body or dexterity? and how about symposium...same question. A sym. mirage is an enormous leap - shouldn't that be 'body' and not 'dexterity'? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 22:03:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA14258 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:03:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA14254 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:03:41 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14251) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA14249 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:03:41 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15060 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:04:37 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RAC12278; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:59:20 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:42:51 PST Subject: [freestyle] The Great Paradox... Message-ID: <19961015.174251.3526.6.dervish@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org So will someone please explain to me why the pdox whirl gets that add? Josh From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 23:08:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14461 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:08:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14457 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:08:30 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14454) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA14452 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:08:30 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA15717 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:09:13 -0700 Received: from port854-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port924-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.162]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA20179 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:11:52 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:11:52 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199610152311.MAA20179@ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: the_sock@ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: The Sock Subject: [freestyle] The not so great Symposium Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok.. whats with symposium??? There seem to be 2 ways of setting it: 1> set, then jump eg. Symp Mirage 2> set as you jump eg. Symp Whirl but when it comes to stuff like Symp eggbeater, can I snake in the set as I jump technique??? It seems to be easier to hit Symposium moves if I am setting the bag as I jump for the symposium... Anyone know which is right? does it depend on if u set a symposium with either a clipper delay or a front stall?? Later. ____ _ _ ____ _ / ___|| |__ _ __ ___ __| | ___ _ __ | _ \(_) ___ From Adrian Dick \___ \| '_ \| '__/ _ \/ _` | / _ \| '__| | | | | |/ _ \the_sock@ihug.co.nz ___) | | | | | | __/ (_| | | (_) | | | |_| | | __/ CoSultan of the |____/|_| |_|_| \___|\__,_| \___/|_| |____/|_|\___| AFFC From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 23:21:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14501 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:21:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14497 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:21:26 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14494) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA14492 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:21:25 GMT Received: from po2.wam.umd.edu (po2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.134]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA15923 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:22:18 -0700 Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.106]) by po2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id TAA19274; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id TAA15019; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610152322.TAA15019@rac6.wam.umd.edu> To: dervish@juno.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org dang. i don't know if i'm going to be able to take a freestyle discussion list. it's like having tu over my shoulder everytime i read a message. the endless barrage of the same porblems rehashed last year and the year before and the year before... blizzards four adds- dexterity, paradox, dexterity, delay. yes, it gets credit as a paradox reverse mirage. reasoning: it feels harder to do than regular blur. so it must not be losing any undefinable elements like paradox. i wonder how long before these ideas come to a full scale "discussion" a symposium mrage gets three adds for: body, dexterity and delay. the argument there, to put to the freestyle world at large is: does the term symposium refer to a dexterity, or to the whole move? if the whole move, and not just dexterity, then that would mean no such ting as paradox-symposium anything. if it refers to dexterity only, then how do we define how dexterity must be done in order to be worthy of an aerial body add? pogo sets in general are wimpy pull throughs- no real aerial aspects, at least not before the bag leaves the foot. usually the symp dext and the set occur at the same time on pogo sets, so i wouldn't give most pogo sets ( i am using the original definition of pogo, ie, B.E.) the symposium add. to me a symp add, and possibly dext ads as well, can only be credited for manuevers done after the bag has left the seting foot and is in the air for the complete manuever. enough worms escaped for now, l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 01:08:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14832 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:08:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14828 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:08:14 GMT Received: from dk713994@oak.cats.ohiou.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14825) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA14823 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:08:14 GMT Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17035 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:09:00 -0700 Received: from localhost by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA17920; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:14:37 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:14:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Darren R. Kautz" To: Josh Penney Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:Freestyle In DC (past tense) In-Reply-To: <19961014.194508.3302.0.dervish@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Josh Penney wrote: > Oh, Darren. You sucker. As if I don't feel bad enough already about missing this one. . . \ O Darren O / \ /\ Russell - /- . | \ Kautz / \ | From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 01:13:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14891 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:13:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14887 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:13:25 GMT Received: from dk713994@oak.cats.ohiou.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14884) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA14882 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:13:24 GMT Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17128 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:14:12 -0700 Received: from localhost by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA20879; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:19:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:19:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Darren R. Kautz" To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. Good call Steve, I wholeheartedly agree. The twist is present (along with all pain associated) and it seems to me that it should be paradox. I myself don't feel that moves like blizzard deserve a paradox add (I'm stuck on that original Tricks of the Trade video), but if the governing body says it is, I'll take the adds. [Sidenote for Vince: I'd do it anyway cause I think it's FUN!] Steve: Congrats on the new listserve system. Seems pretty cool. \ O Darren O / \ /\ Russell - /- . | \ Kautz / \ | From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 03:15:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA15167 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:15:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA15163 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:15:14 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15160) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA15158 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:15:13 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA18349 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:16:01 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id XAA21667; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610160316.XAA21667@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate To: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> from "Josh Penney" at Oct 15, 96 05:21:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Alright. Paradox Guay = 2 adds. Personally, it is a phatty ass move, that earns you plenty of respect in circles, which should be all that matters, but officially (see below) it should be 2 adds. > More importantly, how come 'pdox reverse mirage' is paradox? > It's a legover from clipper, bail to other toe... what gives? > I think pdox reverse should be entirely different: > Clipper set, outside in dexterity with the support leg (like down double) I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the bag is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. By change in direction I mean the following: The bag is set from right clipper, a dexterity is done in front of the body, and then you have to twist to catch the bag on the right hand side of the body again (right clipper, or left toe). The paradox guay does not qualify because the bag never returns to the right hand side. A paradox whirl should not qualify because there is never a change in the direction that the bag is travelling. However, if paradox whirl is paradox, then paradox guay is also paradox. To Steve: If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over exists and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe instead of inside. If you agree with D.Foggle (the twist is done, does not matter where you catch it), then you agree with paradox leg-over. Later, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 06:58:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA15665 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:58:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA15661 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:58:08 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15658) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA15656 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:58:08 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA19712 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:59:00 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CAA26152; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:46:27 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:47:18 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Message-ID: <19961016.004718.4278.0.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610160316.XAA21667@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-10,12-16,18,20-22,24-27 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) writes: >Alright. Paradox Guay = 2 adds. > >> More importantly, how come 'pdox reverse mirage' is paradox? >> It's a legover from clipper, bail to other toe... what gives? > >I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the >bag is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. >However, if paradox whirl is paradox, then paradox guay is also paradox. >If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over >exists and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe >instead of inside. If you agree with D.Fogle (the twist is done, does >not matter where you catch it), then you agree with paradox leg-over. Okay. I knew we'd get around to this eventually. Along the same line of logic, if Steve's 'guay' is given the pdox add, and Alex's 'pdox legover' is okay, then do we allow a legover from the clipper the same? No. A paradox reverse gets the paradox for the twist involving the catch, right? So my original 'pdox reverse' stands as: Clipper set, outside in dexterity with the support leg (like down double) End toe delay, same foot as the set. Whaddaya think? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:14:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15738 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15734 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:44 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15731) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA15729 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:44 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA19928 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:15:37 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA01380; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610160316.XAA21667@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> References: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> from "Josh Penney" at Oct 15, 96 05:21:09 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:25:43 -0700 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:16 PM -0700 10/15/96, Alessandre S Naro wrote: >Alright. Paradox Guay = 2 adds. WRONG. >I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the bag >is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. By >change in direction I mean the following: It doesn't really matter what you *think* a paradox move should involve. A paradox move *is* a move in which the dexterity leg travels the *long way around* the bag. That's Kenny's definition and I think it's right. I mean, would you argue with the MASTER? >The paradox guay does not qualify because the bag never returns to the >right hand side. HUH? Who says paradox moves have to return to any side? >If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over exists >and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe >instead of inside. That's like saying if you believe in paradox whirl, you MUST believe in paradox butterfly. And you're mistaken -- the paradox leg-over you describe would not be a paradox guy caught in a toe; the dexterity is the other direction around the bag. And please note, again, that I claim that paradox guay can be looked at, instead, as: paradox drifter without the drifter, or paradox mirage bail to inside delay Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:14:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15778 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:50 GMT Message-Id: <199610160714.HAA15778@eniac.yak.net.taz> Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA14697 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:45:53 GMT From: mstrong@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com: Host dfw-tx19-17.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: footbag@footbag.org Message-Id: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> Subject: [freestyle] What's a voodoo X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're at it, could you count out the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). thanks, matt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:20:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15837 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:20:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA14697 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:45:53 GMT From: mstrong@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-Id: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> Subject: [freestyle] What's a voodoo X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're at it, could you count out the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). thanks, matt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:49:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15919 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:49:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15915 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:49:37 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15912) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA15910 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:49:36 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA20324 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:50:18 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id DAA11095; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:50:38 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610160750.DAA11095@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate To: brat@research.apple.com (Steven L. Goldberg) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Cc: anaro@sas.upenn.edu, freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Steven L. Goldberg" at Oct 15, 96 11:25:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > >I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the bag > >is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. By > >change in direction I mean the following: > > It doesn't really matter what you *think* a paradox move should involve. Of course it matters. This is what I am proposing. I am wondering whether other people agree with me, so I am presenting an argument, especially since there is no official measure of what is a paradox move. > >If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over exists > >and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe > >instead of inside. > > And you're mistaken -- the paradox leg-over you > describe would not be a paradox guy caught in a toe; the dexterity is the > other direction around the bag. I do not propose that a paradox leg-over is a leg-over set from clipper. I am proposing that a "paradox" guay caught in toe is a paradox leg-over. The dexterity is the other direction just as a guay, but instead of inside, you catch on toe. The paradox dexterity is done, the catch should not mattter (You can evben catch on outside for all I care and call it a donkey's tail). If you say that catching it on inside = 3 adds, I say catching it on outside, or toe = 3 adds. Laters, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 08:25:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA16002 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:25:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA15998 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:25:02 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15995) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA15993 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:25:02 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA20617 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:25:56 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA01993; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610160750.DAA11095@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> References: from "Steven L. Goldberg" at Oct 15, 96 11:25:43 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:24:10 -0700 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:50 AM -0700 10/16/96, Alessandre S Naro wrote: >I do not propose that a paradox leg-over is a leg-over set from >clipper. I am proposing that a "paradox" guay caught in toe is a >paradox leg-over. The dexterity is the other direction just as a guay, >but instead of inside, you catch on toe. The paradox dexterity is done, >the catch should not mattter (You can evben catch on outside for all I >care and call it a donkey's tail). If you say that catching it on >inside = 3 adds, I say catching it on outside, or toe = 3 adds. Yup, paradox around-the-world = 3 adds. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 15:46:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA16794 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA16790 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:20 GMT Received: from mdong@emuvax.emich.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16787) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA16785 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:20 GMT Received: from laurel.emich.edu (laurel.emich.edu [164.76.4.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA25079 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:47:18 -0700 Received: from EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU by EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-6 #16909) id <01IAPJBTULR4935P3F@EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU> for FREESTYLE@FOOTBAG.ORG; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "MICHAEL J. DONG" Subject: [freestyle] dexterity To: FREESTYLE@footbag.org Message-id: <01IAPJBTVHRM935P3F@EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU> X-VMS-To: FREESTYLE@FOOTBAG.ORG MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have the freestyle moves list and I have a few questions regarding it. Mainly, I was wondering if the circling motion is on the x axis, or the z axis of the footbag, or what. I go to Eastern Michigan University in Michigan. I mainly freestyle and am always looking for someone to hack with in the area. I live in Northville. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 16:35:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA16926 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:35:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA16625 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:36:08 GMT Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:41:16 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not a body add. Here's why: Legacy. When paradox was first invented (and paradox mirage was the only move out there), it was explained to me as a dexterity. You basically had to do a dexterity around your support leg to get in position to do a dexterity around the footbag. All the justifications for calling it a body add always seem like the cart leading the horse. Paradox moves are rooted in motions you are doing with your feet and legs; the upper body or torso twisting is really incidental to a dexterous motion of the feet. With Pdx whirls and Pdx-Rev-Mirages, you could also view the paradox as a second 'upside down' dexterity - i.e. your foot has to follow a constrained path and intersect the path between footbag and contact point. Of course, that opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Just a tiny alternate reality that some will hopefully consider... Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 16:35:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA16943 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:35:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA16581 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:24:20 GMT Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:29:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Paradox whirls and paradox reverse mirages are difficult for what happens after you do the dexterity. They are essentially 'window problems' where you must pass your dexterity foot back under the bag and between the bag and the stalling foot. Paradox mirages and paradox ATW's are difficult for what happens before you do the dexterity. Even though they are all called paradox, the difficulty that gets an extra add are quite different for separate cases. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 17:07:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17099 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:07:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17095 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:07:51 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17092) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17090 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:07:51 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA25915 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:08:45 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NAA26153; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:08:19 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:03:56 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] What's a voodoo Message-ID: <19961016.130733.24694.0.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,12-15 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 mstrong@ix.netcom.com writes: >Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're >at it, >could you count out >the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). > >thanks, matt > > Sure. imagine if you will, me- setting a paradox mirage, but instead of the toe delay I pull a symposium and make the catch on the original setting foot. I would call this 'frontside pdx backside symposium mirage'. Now pull this out of a pogo set and you've successfully hit pogo voodoo. Pogo(2) pdx(1) symposium(1)dex(2) delay(1). From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 17:14:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17131 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:14:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17127 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:14:38 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17124) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17122 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:14:38 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA26033 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:15:35 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA04660 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:03:48 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:41 AM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not >a body add. Here's why: I can't believe it, either, Derrick, but I agree with you here as well. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 17:55:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17264 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:55:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17260 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:55:46 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17257) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17255 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:55:45 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA26498 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:56:43 -0700 Received: from gold.missouri.edu (gold.missouri.edu [128.206.2.3]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA81852; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:56:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by gold.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA101282; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:56:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: gold.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:56:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@gold.missouri.edu To: "Steven L. Goldberg" cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote > > > Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity (paradox > style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This is > very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body > component on the pick-up.> > It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > > Steve I definitely agree with you. I do the same move except that I catch it on the toe of the setting foot. I also do this with a mirage in front of it so as to make it a blur, but you catch it on the set to instead of the frontside miraging toe. I've heard it called a 'slur'. joe Marschall Columbia, MO. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:01:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17287 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:01:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17283 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:01:38 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17280) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17278 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:01:37 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26631 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:02:34 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OAA12192; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:02:04 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:59:15 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Message-ID: <19961016.140012.3286.2.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-18,20-22 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:41:16 -0500 "Derrick G. Fogle" writes: >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, >not a body add. Here's why: > >You basically had to do a dexterity around your support >leg to get in position to do a dexterity around the footbag. >Paradox moves are rooted in motions you are doing with >your feet and legs; the upper body or torso twisting is >really incidental to a dexterous motion of the feet. Cool. Fine. Great. >With Pdx whirls and Pdx-Rev-Mirages, you could also view the paradox >as a second 'upside down' dexterity - i.e. your foot has to follow a >constrained path and intersect the path between footbag and contact >point. Of course, that opens a whole 'nother can of worms. > Okay, I believe this lends creedence to my pdx-reverse idea. I mean, it's only a variation on the mirage from clipper, just circling from outside-to-in. It is more difficult than sameside-butterfly, which is of course 3 add. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:03:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17304 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:03:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17300 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:03:47 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17297) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17295 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:03:47 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26659 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:04:42 -0700 Received: from gold.missouri.edu (gold.missouri.edu [128.206.2.3]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA37338; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:04:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by gold.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA96150; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:04:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: gold.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:04:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@gold.missouri.edu To: Josh Penney cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate In-Reply-To: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Josh Penney wrote: > I don't mind blizzard getting four adds, but , like, what's up wit dat? > Is this true? why? Blizzard: 2 dexterities, toe catch. where is fourth add? Is it the cross over Scott mentioned in reply to Derrick Fogle about controversial Paradox guay? Is the 2nd dexterity seen as reverse paradox? I'm so confused! joe marschall. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:17:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17349 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:17:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17345 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:17:11 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17342) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17340 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:17:10 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26806 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:18:04 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA05523 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19961016.140012.3286.2.dervish@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:18:54 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] Re: More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: >Okay, I believe this lends creedence to my pdx-reverse idea. >I mean, it's only a variation on the mirage from clipper, just circling >from outside-to-in. >It is more difficult than sameside-butterfly, which is of course 3 add. Nuh-uh. Reverse-mirage-from-clipper is a 2-add move. Paradox reverse mirage requires your setting leg to do the S motion which defines paradox dexterities. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:53:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17458 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:53:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17454 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:53:20 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17451) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17449 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:53:20 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA27314 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:54:08 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA05923 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:54:57 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey freestylers, I was just talking with someone today about Ben Job's amazing article he posted to the listserve almost exactly a year ago -- in it, he described a notation for moves that makes it ultra easy to analyze them, explain them, and write them down. I believe this could be a basis for assigning difficulty ratings to tricks, as well as just a very good way for us to discuss freestyle moves on this list. So, I'm resending it here -- read below. Please try to understand it; it's not that complicated and I think it really will help us! Ben, you're amazing. For those of you who don't know Ben, he's a student at Univ. Colorado Boulder, and a friend of Daryl Genz -- he is an accomplished shredder, though he doesn't like to brag about it. :-) --- Here's what he wrote last year; I think you will be blown away -- I certainly was: Originally-From: BJ (now job@benji.colorado.edu) Original-Subject: By the Way, Not the Name Originally-To: footbag@footbag.org Original-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 02:16:38 -0700 (MST) Here's some food for thought... Feedback is welcome, particularly in regard to the names in the list. Try the "complete" list... Benjamin Job A List By the Way This paper presents a notation for describing footbag tricks and representing the relationships that exist between them. Additionally, it presents the means for generating a comprehensive list of possible variations. Break a trick down. You get a series of movements preceeded by a set and followed by a catch (or kick). The set and catch options are few and easily listable. The series of movements, though allowing of more variation, are similarly listable. Represented as a formula, this information provides us with the means to logically generate trick variations. As the precision of the formula increases, that is, as more of the finite number of basic movements are incorperated into the formula, we approach the specification of every trick possible. Consider the following: (toe | clip) > [(same | op)(in | out)dexterity]* > (same | op)(toe | clip) The notation is as follows: "Same" and "op" are always relative to the leg previously refered to. "In" and "out" mean "inside" and "outside", respec- tively. "|" is equiv. to "choice" ("or"). "[ ]" means "enclosed dex is optional". ">" is equiv. to "followed by". "*" means the preceding term can occur/re-occur 0 or more times. From this simple formula, most non-modified leg dexterities can be derived. Because of the structure of the formula, a "truth table" of moves can be gen- erated, leaving no move undiscovered (ex., see list). Some examples: clip > op clip Clipper to Clipper toe > op in dex > op toe Mirage clip > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Paradox Dbl Legover clip > op in dex > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Flurry How far can we go? Only slight modifications are needed to account for other modifiers and their associated possibilities. For example, Pogo, Symposium, Spinning, ang Gyro moves can be formed by adding "(no plant while)" and "(forward | backward)spin". The formula, (toe | clip) > [(no plant while)] [(same | op)(in | out)dexterity | (for | back)spin]* > (same | op)(toe | clip) describes variations such as: clip > (no plant while) op in dex > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Pogo Paradox Symposium Blur The set and catch options can be filled in with all the choices: inside, outside, knee, the unsual surfaces. What elements that may comprise a trick have yet to be accounted for? Just a few: stomping ["(both legs plant)"], blind, hop-over, carry (Wrap), duck, dive, jumping/flying, Swirl/Twirl cross- body dex, swing (Pendulum, Rake). Not many other types of primitive movements exist. Since the acceptable tricks are just combinations of these primitives; and since each primitive may be easily implemented within the formula; the the possibility of a master formula for all tricks becomes complete. ----- A(Partial)LBTW Note: "same", "op" and "no plant" are relative to the leg previously refered to. This is a partial listing covering some 2 dexterity (min.) moves set and caught from toe or clipper. toe > same in dex > same in dex > same toe Double Around-the-World toe > same in dex > same in dex > op toe Double switchover? toe > same in dex > same in dex > same clip Pixie Double Drifter toe > same in dex > same in dex > op clip toe > same in dex > same out dex > same toe toe > same in dex > same out dex > op toe toe > same in dex > same out dex > same clip toe > same in dex > same out dex > op clip toe > same in dex > op in dex > same toe toe > same in dex > op in dex > op toe Pixie Blur toe > same in dex > op in dex > same clip Pixie Blurry Drifter toe > same in dex > op in dex > op clip Pixie Blurry Whirl toe > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Pixie Double Legover toe > same in dex > op out dex > op toe Pixie Blizzard toe > same in dex > op out dex > same clip toe > same in dex > op out dex > op clip Pixie Ripwalk toe > same out dex > same out dex > same toe Double Out Around-world toe > same out dex > same out dex > op toe Double switchover? toe > same out dex > same out dex > same clip toe > same out dex > same out dex > op clip Double Over Down toe > same out dex > same in dex > same toe toe > same out dex > same in dex > op toe toe > same out dex > same in dex > same clip toe > same out dex > same in dex > op clip toe > same out dex > op in dex > same toe toe > same out dex > op in dex > op toe toe > same out dex > op in dex > same clip toe > same out dex > op in dex > op clip toe > same out dex > op out dex > same toe Pixie-like Eggbeater toe > same out dex > op out dex > op toe Pixie-like Omelette toe > same out dex > op out dex > same clip toe > same out dex > op out dex > op clip toe > op in dex > same in dex > same toe Switch-foot Double toe > op in dex > same in dex > op toe Toe Barrage toe > op in dex > same in dex > same clip Toe Double Drifter toe > op in dex > same in dex > op clip Toe Double Whirl toe > op in dex > same out dex > same toe toe > op in dex > same out dex > op toe toe > op in dex > same out dex > same clip toe > op in dex > same out dex > op clip toe > op in dex > op in dex > same toe toe > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Toe Blur toe > op in dex > op in dex > same clip Toe Blurry Drifter toe > op in dex > op in dex > op clip Toe Blurry Whirl toe > op in dex > op out dex > same toe Double Legover toe > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Toe Blizzard toe > op in dex > op out dex > same clip toe > op in dex > op out dex > op clip Toe Ripwalk toe > op out dex > same out dex > same toe Switch-foot Double toe > op out dex > same out dex > op toe toe > op out dex > same out dex > same clip toe > op out dex > same out dex > op clip Paradon / Dbl Butterfly toe > op out dex > same in dex > same toe toe > op out dex > same in dex > op toe toe > op out dex > same in dex > same clip toe > op out dex > same in dex > op clip toe > op out dex > op in dex > same toe toe > op out dex > op in dex > op toe toe > op out dex > op in dex > same clip toe > op out dex > op in dex > op clip toe > op out dex > op out dex > same toe Eggbeater toe > op out dex > op out dex > op toe Omelette toe > op out dex > op out dex > same clip toe > op out dex > op out dex > op clip Symposium toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op toe Symposium Mirage toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op clip Symposium Whirl toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op toe Symp Reverse Mirage toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op clip Symposium Butterfly toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Pixie Symp Mirage toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip Pixie Symp Whirl toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe Px Sym Rev Mirage toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip Px Symp Butterfly toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Symp Toe Blur toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip Blurry Symp Whirl toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe Symp Toe Blizzard toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same toe toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Symp Toe Blur toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same toe toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Symp Blizzard toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > same toe toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op toe toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > same toe Symp Eggbeater toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op toe Symp Omelette toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op clip clip > same in dex > same in dex > same toe clip > same in dex > same in dex > op toe Pdx Barrage(?) clip > same in dex > same in dex > same clip Pdx Double Drifter clip > same in dex > same in dex > op clip clip > same in dex > same out dex > same toe clip > same in dex > same out dex > op toe clip > same in dex > same out dex > same clip clip > same in dex > same out dex > op clip clip > same in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > same in dex > op in dex > op toe Pdx Blur clip > same in dex > op in dex > same clip Pdx Blurry Drifter clip > same in dex > op in dex > op clip Pdx Blurry Whirl clip > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Pdx Double Legover clip > same in dex > op out dex > op toe Pdx Blizzard clip > same in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > same in dex > op out dex > op clip Pdx Ripwalk clip > same out dex > same out dex > same toe Double Pickup clip > same out dex > same out dex > op toe clip > same out dex > same out dex > same clip clip > same out dex > same out dex > op clip Barfly clip > same out dex > same in dex > same toe clip > same out dex > same in dex > op toe clip > same out dex > same in dex > same clip clip > same out dex > same in dex > op clip clip > same out dex > op in dex > same toe clip > same out dex > op in dex > op toe clip > same out dex > op in dex > same clip clip > same out dex > op in dex > op clip clip > same out dex > op out dex > same toe Clip set Eggbeater clip > same out dex > op out dex > op toe Clip set Omelette clip > same out dex > op out dex > same clip clip > same out dex > op out dex > op clip clip > op in dex > same in dex > same toe Double Pickup clip > op in dex > same in dex > op toe Barrage clip > op in dex > same in dex > same clip Double Drifter clip > op in dex > same in dex > op clip Double Whirl clip > op in dex > same out dex > same toe clip > op in dex > same out dex > op toe clip > op in dex > same out dex > same clip clip > op in dex > same out dex > op clip clip > op in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Blur clip > op in dex > op in dex > same clip Blurry Drifter clip > op in dex > op in dex > op clip Blurry Whirl clip > op in dex > op out dex > same toe Double Legover clip > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Blizzard clip > op in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > op in dex > op out dex > op clip Ripwalk clip > op out dex > same out dex > same toe clip > op out dex > same out dex > op toe clip > op out dex > same out dex > same clip clip > op out dex > same out dex > op clip Double Butterfly clip > op out dex > same in dex > same toe clip > op out dex > same in dex > op toe clip > op out dex > same index > same clip clip > op out dex > same in dex > op clip clip > op out dex > op in dex > same toe clip > op out dex > op in dex > op toe clip > op out dex > op in dex > same clip clip > op out dex > op in dex > op clip clip > op out dex > op out dex > same toe Clip set Eggbeater clip > op out dex > op out dex > op toe Clip set Omelette clip > op out dex > op out dex > same clip clip > op out dex > op out dex > op clip Pogo clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Pogo Blur clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same clip Pogo Pdx Drifter clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op clip Pogo Pdx Whirl clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same toe Pogo Legover clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Pogo Blizzard clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op clip Pogo Infinity Symposium clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op clip Symp Butterfly clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Symp Blur clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip Blurry Symp Whirl clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe Symp Blizzard clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip Dada Curve clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op clip clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > same toe Gyro Dbl Pickup clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > op toe Gyro Barrage clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > same clip clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > op clip Gyro Dbl Whirl clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > op toe Gyro Blur clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > same clip Gyro Blry Drifter clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > op clip Gyro Blury Whirl clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Gyro Dbl Legovr clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > op toe Gyro Blizzard clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > op clip Gyro Ripwalk From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 19:34:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA17544 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA17540 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:56 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17537) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA17535 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:56 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA27795 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:34:45 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PAB07753; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:30:45 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:14:27 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re: More Paradox debate Message-ID: <19961016.152219.9206.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,12,14-16 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Okay, I believe this lends creedence to my pdx-reverse idea. >>I mean, it's only a variation on the mirage from clipper, just >>circling from outside-to-in. >>It is more difficult than sameside-butterfly, which is of course 3 >>add. >Nuh-uh. Reverse-mirage-from-clipper is a 2-add move. Paradox reverse >mirage requires your setting leg to do the S motion which defines >paradox >dexterities. > That's more like an upside down 'gamma' than any kind of 's I ever heard of. And the reverse-from-clipper requires the same kind of twist and shift that's in pdx-reverse. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:26:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17635 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17631 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:42 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17628) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17626 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:42 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28348 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:26:30 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA06830 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19961016.152219.9206.1.dervish@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:28:39 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 4:14 PM -0700 10/16/96, Josh Penney wrote: >>Nuh-uh. Reverse-mirage-from-clipper is a 2-add move. Paradox reverse >>mirage requires your setting leg to do the S motion which defines >>paradox >>dexterities. >> >That's more like an upside down 'gamma' than any kind of 's I ever heard >of. >And the reverse-from-clipper requires the same kind of twist and shift >that's in pdx-reverse. Yeah, my mistake. I didn't mean S. In fact, I meant the sideways "alpha" motion. (See the PS below for a graph.) I think we should decide if we agree or not whether paradox is just the S motion, and if the "alpha" motion is something different (as opposed to just the logical reverse of the S motion for reverse paradox dexterities). We also need to decide that, if S and alpha are different enough, whether or not alpha moves deserve an extra add. Of course, the problem here is the alpha moves, not the S moves. Examples of S moves are all in-out paradox dexterities -- i.e., paradox mirage, paradox whirl, paradox guay :-), paradox drifter, etc. Examples of "alpha" moves are all out-in so-called "paradox" dexterities -- i.e., "paradox" reverse mirage, (front-side) "paradox" (backside) symposium reverse mirage, etc. Examples of "alpha" moves not currently thought to be "paradox" are: reverse mirage, butterfly, barfly, etc. I don't know how to reconcile the "alpha" moves; perhaps the motion of the dexterity is not the key after all. I know for sure an S move when I see it, though, and that leads me back to my original argument that paradox guay is definitely paradox, beyond a shadow of a doubt. If folks don't agree with this, then we have to get down and dirty about each case individually -- first, let's discuss in-out dexterities and what makes them "paradox". Then, in a separate thread, let's discuss out-in dexterities. I don't see how we can argue both at the same time. Steve P.S. "Bubba" is the name for the clipper-set reverse-mirage which is not thought by anyone to be paradox, just FYI. P.P.S Here's an S motion dexterity: Here's an "alpha" dexterity: --- --- | | | --- \ / | + --- / \ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:30:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17669 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:29:26 GMT Message-Id: <199610162014.NAA28216@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-62.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA233376608; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:10:08 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:02:52 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Hey freestylers, I was just talking with someone today about Ben Job's >amazing article he posted to the listserve almost exactly a year ago -- in I still have a copy of the original posting, in fact (it was mailed on Halloween, scahhrry). Even though I was only just getting started in freestyle at that time, I thought it was a very terse yet elegant way to describe just about anything (and should reduce confusion, if used correctly). I'm kind of surprised it's not used as a standard already, but I for one am ready to adopt it. I'd like to further propose [if I may be so bold] that combos be notated by a ">>" between each move. This certainly isn't necessary, but seems easier on the eyes to see at-a-glance where each move ends (without having to start on a separate line or otherwise comment on it, plus you only have to indicate the catch foot once). For example, I enjoy hitting Paradon into Barrage: toe > op out dex > same out dex > op clip >> op in dex > same in dex > op toe Bad idea? More confusing than listing them separately? -- Ernest M. Crvich Durham, NC, USA, Earth Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:39:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17728 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:39:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17724 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:39:03 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17721) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17719 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:38:58 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28492 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:39:29 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id OAA09558; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:49:01 -0600 Message-ID: <32654A3B.41C67EA6@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:48:59 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] What's a voodoo References: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> <19961016.130733.24694.0.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 mstrong@ix.netcom.com writes: > >Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're > >at it, > >could you count out > >the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). > > > >thanks, matt > > > > > Sure. > imagine if you will, me- setting a paradox mirage, but instead of the toe > delay I pull a symposium and make the catch on the original setting foot. > I would call this 'frontside pdx backside symposium mirage'. > Now pull this out of a pogo set and you've successfully hit pogo voodoo. > Pogo(2) pdx(1) symposium(1)dex(2) delay(1). Hey, that's cool. I used to call that a paradox symposium blur (which really doesn't make sense) - I like voodoo better. I never even thought of trying it pogo - sounds fun! Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:44:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17756 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17752 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:20 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17749) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17747 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:20 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28590 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:08 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA07022 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32654A3B.41C67EA6@bechtel.Colorado.edu> References: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> <19961016.130733.24694.0.dervish@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:47:23 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] What's a voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:48 PM -0700 10/16/96, Genz Daryl S wrote: >Hey, that's cool. I used to call that a paradox symposium blur (which >really doesn't make sense) - I like voodoo better. Yeah, Tuan used to call it the PSB (paradox symposium blur). Then folks started calling it the Voodoo because it was the Do that Vu do so well. I actually made up the name, if I remember correctly. So of course I like it. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:45:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17773 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:45:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17769 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:59 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17766) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17764 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:59 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28595 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:40 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id OAA09564; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:56:45 -0600 Message-ID: <32654C0C.167EB0E7@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:56:44 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > > At 7:41 AM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: > >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not > >a body add. Here's why: > > I can't believe it, either, Derrick, but I agree with you here as well. > > Steve Hummm, it looks like I disagree with two of the most opinionated people on the list. You've got a pretty strong argument, but I just can't swallow that worm. OK, I agree paradox is always going to be relative to some dexterity - but that doesn't mean it should be considered a dexterity! I guess the reason I don't see paradox as a dexterity is because of the way I think of (i.e. my humble definition of) dexterity - you get a dexterity add when your leg circles the bag. (PERIOD). If your leg circles twice, you get two dexterity adds - it doesn't matter which way you circle it or what happens before or after, you get the dexterity add when you circle the bag. A paradox mirage only has one dexterity - thus, you can only get one dexterity add! The paradox add should go into the BODY category. Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:00:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17831 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:00:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17827 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:00:42 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17824) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17822 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:00:42 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA28818 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:01:29 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09575; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:11:32 -0600 Message-ID: <32654F83.446B9B3D@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:11:31 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ernest Crvich CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name References: <199610162014.NAA28216@Market.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ernest Crvich wrote: > [snip] > For example, I enjoy hitting Paradon into Barrage: > [snip] > Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:03:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17852 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:03:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17848 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:03:29 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17845) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17843 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:03:28 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA28836 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:04:14 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA14621 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:16:54 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBBB7C.2A852BD0@www.lanit.com>; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:07:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Parad Aaaugh! x Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:07:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve's right, the s-motion and alpha-motion (until now I had no name for that) that are both called paradox are really completely separate issues. Maybe we can name the alpha-style paradoxes zodaraps :) And I said that the idea of saying zodaraps were upside-down dexterities was a whole 'nother can of worms. Looks like I was right. There is really very little difference between 1) left x-bdy inside set > left out-in dex > right toe stall and 2) rght x-bdy inside set > (same as above) There's also the whole question of things like regular whirls falling under this category (more adds, yes!). Sorry I mentioned it . Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:10:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17885 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:10:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17881 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:10:14 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17878) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17876 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:10:13 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA28954 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:10:56 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA14908 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:23:45 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBBB7D.1F4B1120@www.lanit.com>; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:14:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:14:34 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Daryl has a point: my conceptualization requires a slight modification to the definition of dexterity to include more than just passing your leg or foot over or around the footbag. But then again, defining dexterities as dexterous motions of feet or leg (whether or not the bag is being circled) still seems more straightforward than trying to define body moves to include that funky paradox thang. The soup's getting thicker... Kinda chewey now... Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com >---------- >From: Genz Daryl S[SMTP:genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU] >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 1996 3:56 PM >To: Steven L. Goldberg >Cc: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate > >Steven L. Goldberg wrote: >> >> At 7:41 AM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >> >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not >> >a body add. Here's why: >> >> I can't believe it, either, Derrick, but I agree with you here as well. >> >> Steve > >Hummm, it looks like I disagree with two of the most opinionated people >on >the list. You've got a pretty strong argument, but I just can't >swallow >that worm. > >OK, I agree paradox is always going to be relative to some dexterity - >but >that doesn't mean it should be considered a dexterity! I guess the >reason >I don't see paradox as a dexterity is because of the way I think of >(i.e. my humble definition of) dexterity - you get a dexterity add when > >your leg circles the bag. (PERIOD). If your leg circles twice, you get >two dexterity adds - it doesn't matter which way you circle it or what >happens before or after, you get the dexterity add when you circle the >bag. > >A paradox mirage only has one dexterity - thus, you can only get one >dexterity add! The paradox add should go into the BODY category. > >Genzu > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:21:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17939 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:21:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17935 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:21:58 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17932) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17930 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:21:58 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29081 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:22:35 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QAB28965; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:47:21 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:51:09 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Message-ID: <19961016.155110.9206.6.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5,7-14,16-23,25-27 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Hey freestylers, I was just talking with someone today about Ben Job's >amazing article he posted to the listserve almost exactly a year ago >-- in it, he described a notation for moves that makes it ultra easy to >analyze them, explain them, and write them down. I believe this could be a >basis for assigning difficulty ratings to tricks, as well as just a very >good way for us to discuss freestyle moves on this list. >Consider the following: > (toe | clip) > [(same | op)(in | out)dexterity]* > > (same | op)(toe | clip) Okay, So I like it. I'm hip. I got no problems with it. But what's the difference between: clip > op out dex > op clip Same side butterfly and clip > op out dex > op clip reverse whirl oh, and incidentally; clip > op out dex > op toe reverse mirage from clipper or reverse pdx mirage? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:24:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17964 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:24:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17960 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:24:11 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17957) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17955 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:24:11 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29101 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:24:50 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09582; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:35:52 -0600 Message-ID: <32655536.794BDF32@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:35:50 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > [snip] > > For those of you who don't know Ben, he's a student at Univ. Colorado > Boulder, and a friend of Daryl Genz -- he is an accomplished shredder, > though he doesn't like to brag about it. :-) > [snip] > Actually, he just graduated this summer. And, he may not like to brag, but I'll do it for him. I guess the best statement to his freestyle accomplishments would have to be that Ben hit his first SEVEN add move before he had been playing for one year! Thats faster than anyone I've ever heard of. It took me 7 years to hit mine (my first was last Sunday (ok so I'll brag about myself a little too ;->). But I have to say for the old-skoolers like Rippin', that when they started, there was no such thing as a 7 add move - had there been, he probably would have hit it within his first year too. Anyway, I knew this move list would be resurrected someday, and I'm glad it finally came back. I think it's going to be the future in defining tricks and maybe even adds. There's got to be some way we can use this system and come up with adds out of the move based on pure logic - not baised arguments. The beauty of this system is that it can (with a few additions) describe (just about) EVERY move. And, if poeple can agree on some logical way of converting those move descriptions directly to adds, I think we'll settle a lot of disputes. As of yet, I havn't done a lot of thinking about it, but it may even be that his system will help us to define that elusive paradox. Sadly, after thinking about it, it looks like that damn guay might end up paradox - so we might have to make some exceptions. ;-> Later, Daryl Genz From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:25:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18005 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18001 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:27 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17998) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17996 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:27 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29118 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:26:03 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id OAA09569; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:59:27 -0600 Message-ID: <32654CAD.2781E494@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:59:26 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Marschall CC: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Joe Marschall wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote > > > > > > Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity (paradox > > style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This is > > very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body > > component on the pick-up.> > > It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > > > > > Steve I definitely agree with you. I do the same move except that I catch > it on the toe of the setting foot. I also do this with a mirage in front > of it so as to make it a blur, but you catch it on the set to instead of > the frontside miraging toe. I've heard it called a 'slur'. > > joe Marschall > Columbia, MO. I don't want to touch this argument, but what's up Joe?! I didn't even know you were on the list. Way cool. Daryl Genz I still only see 2 adds. ;-> From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:25:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18022 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18018 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:36 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18015) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18013 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:35 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29122 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:26:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199610162126.OAA29122@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-62.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA243631188; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:26:28 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:19:12 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] Named Combos Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one >of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". Cool. Besides this and Infinity, what else is there, just out of curiousity? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:34:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18081 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:34:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18077 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:34:34 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18074) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18072 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:34:34 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29236 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:35:08 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09588 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:33 -0600 Message-ID: <326557B8.15FB7483@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:32 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Paradox? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up FREESTYLERS?! Before starting, I just want to say that this list is awesome now that we got rid of those damn net players! ;-> And now, here's a move that will make your brain smoke for a while. I'm just throwing it out there because I think it may lead some new insight into just what paradox is, or isn't. Rippin has siad it's not paradox, and Kenny has siad it is... so what do you think? (Isn't it ironic, don't you think ;->) Move: Setting from rt. foot clip., spin clockwise about 270 degrees, then perform an in-out (c-clockwise) mirage with the left leg, ending on a right toe. So, is it a spinning mirage, or a spinning paradox mirage? 3 or 4 adds? Later, Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:47:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18171 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:47:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18167 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:47:15 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18164) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18162 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:47:14 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29389 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:47:46 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09593; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:59:09 -0600 Message-ID: <32655AAC.59E2B600@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:59:08 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ernest Crvich CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Named Combos References: <199610162126.OAA29122@Market.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ernest Crvich wrote: > > >Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one > >of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". > > Cool. Besides this and Infinity, what else is there, just out of > curiousity? Umm, I can think of a few: Torsion = Torque to Paradox Torque Whirling Dervish (sp?) = (I think?) pendulum set, gyro-miraging rake (note there's no whirl ... it came before whirl was invented) and of course: Genzu = Paradox Torque to Paradox Torque (coined by Rippin) There's probably a few more out there, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Anyone? .... Anyone?? Later, Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:50:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18191 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:50:04 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18187 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:50:04 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18184) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18182 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:50:03 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29478 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:50:30 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA07870 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610162126.OAA29122@Market.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:52:57 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Named Combos Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:19 PM -0700 10/16/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: >>Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one >>of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". > > Cool. Besides this and Infinity, what else is there, just out of >curiousity? Here are a few (including the ones you mentioned): fiesta = paradon >> barrage infinity = butterfly >> opposite butterfly >> repeat whirling dirvish = pendulum >> cross-body rake (same leg) winter solstice = sole delay >> cross-body back-side rake (w/sole foot) probe = back-of-neck delay >> blind cross body delay anal probe = back-of-neck delay >> blind diffraction mechanosis = pincher >> torque I'm sure there're more. These days folks don't like to name combos as much -- makes it confusing for folks who don't get the idea that a trick and a combo are two different things. I'm sure there are more old-skool combos with names than new-skool. I just don't know enough about the old-skool. :-) Heh heh. Okay, fine, I'm still old-skool. :-) But I hit my first Blur two weeks ago; I hit it five times yesterday. So maybe some day I'll catch up with the nuSkool before it's too late :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:14:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18288 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18284 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:39 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18281) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18279 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:39 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29752 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:15:10 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA07494 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:00 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: RE: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:14 PM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >Daryl has a point Yup, I agree. I guess I was saying it is a "modifier" as opposed to an "add category". The category it *modifies* is dexterity. But modifiers and categories still count as adds. We have to be careful anyway with the way we talk about adds versus add categories; and if we add a concept like add "modifier" it may get more complicated than it already is or should be. This language needs to be cleaned up, or better yet, we just need a new system. Look at Ben Job's message and you'll see there may be an easy way to just assigning difficulty based on number of ">"s or something like that. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:17:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18315 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:17:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18311 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:17:39 GMT Received: from danzilla@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18308) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18306 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:17:38 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA29770 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:18:02 -0700 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 16 Oct 1996 22:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 16 Oct 1996 22:16:20 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-41-9.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.121]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA00823 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:16:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:16:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199610162216.RAA00823@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu (Dan Sharber) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >It doesn't really matter what you *think* a paradox move should involve. A >paradox move *is* a move in which the dexterity leg travels the *long way >around* the bag. That's Kenny's definition and I think it's right. I >mean, would you argue with the MASTER? Right on. I like the "long way around definition because it cover both regukar and reverse mirages as paradox. On the reverse the leg must travel the "lomg way around" to get to the catch. Dan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:25:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18359 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18355 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:02 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18352) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18350 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:01 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29873 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:25:27 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d112.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.112]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA29943; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:25:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:27:48 -0500 To: Joe Marschall , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Joe and fellow freestylers! >Blizzard: 2 dexterities, toe catch. where is fourth add? The second dex is paradox. NQAI (No Question About It) Period. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:25:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18376 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18372 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:06 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18369) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18367 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:05 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29878 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:25:34 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d112.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.112]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA29950; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:26:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:28:01 -0500 To: Joe Marschall , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! >Steve I definitely agree with you. I do the same move except that I catch >it on the toe of the setting foot. I also do this with a mirage in front >of it so as to make it a blur, but you catch it on the set to instead of >the frontside miraging toe. I've heard it called a 'slur'. No, No, No. I cannot see this as a paradox. Not at all. no time to gather my thoughts, but NONE of the top freestylers will give a paradox for *that*. None. Especially not the Ken-man. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:25:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18393 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18389 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:21 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18386) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18384 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:21 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29882 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:25:46 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d112.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.112]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA29964; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:26:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:28:13 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Bens system is okay, but don't you think it would be a little tough on newbies? Especially those who want to know more about freestyle? Lets stick to long-hand when posting to the general list. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:25:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18410 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18406 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:46 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18403) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18401 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:45 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29891 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:26:13 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d112.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.112]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA29989; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:26:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:28:41 -0500 To: Genz Daryl S , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! It is really great that we are not holding back anymore. FREESTYLE RULZ! >Rippin has siad it's not paradox, and Kenny has siad it is... >so what do you think? (Isn't it ironic, don't you think ;->) >Setting from rt. foot clip., spin clockwise about 270 degrees, >then perform an in-out (c-clockwise) mirage with the left leg, >ending on a right toe. >So, is it a spinning mirage, or a spinning paradox mirage? >3 or 4 adds? A spin negates a paradox, so I side with Rippin. I have been doing this move for years and never expected a paradox add. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 23:06:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18534 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:06:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18530 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:06:21 GMT Received: from danzilla@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18527) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA18525 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:06:21 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA30353 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:06:36 -0700 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 16 Oct 1996 23:07:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 16 Oct 1996 23:07:29 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-41-9.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.121]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA18425 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:07:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:07:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199610162307.SAA18425@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu (Dan Sharber) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Named Combos Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I'm sure there're more. Wouldn't gimpy/ing set moves fall under this named combo category? After seeing that gimpy mirage in the Raw Shred videao I've been trying different gimpy moves. Besides gimpy mirage, I've hit gimpy whirl and am going to try gimpy torque. Oh well. Late, Dan P.S. As I am calling it, a gimpy set would be rt ft clip, in out dex with left ft (like beginning to blur) then hit bag with rt knee and then whatever. I know it's a complete move and not an actual "set" but you can use it as one. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 23:08:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18551 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:08:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18547 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:08:21 GMT Received: from dk713994@oak.cats.ohiou.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18544) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA18542 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:08:21 GMT Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA30360 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:08:43 -0700 Received: from localhost by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA14790; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:14:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:14:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Darren R. Kautz" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Debate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have been reading about this paradox thing for the past 40 damn messages and here is what I see: A big circulating argument in which nothing has been resolved. The same argument is hashed over and over again and it is PAINFULLY obvious that no one is going to sway the opinions of the die-hards. Paradox is an ill-defined term that has been around for too long. I think it needs to be eradicated and some sort of concrete definition needs to be arrived at. It's as if nobody wants to part with an old toy even though it's worn out and useless. I agree that a blur should be worth four adds and even a blizzard. I KNOW that a blur is harder than a double-leg-over and somehow should be credited with that difficulty. However, a completely new idea has to be created if you plan on ever resolving this issue. Ever try to explain paradox to a fresh new freestlyer? It doesn't make any bloody sense and they are confused. Which is not unreasonable since EVERYONE is confused. Time to overhaul the concept (probably symposium while you're at it). My two cents. \ O Darren O / \ /\ Russell - /- . | \ Kautz / \ | PS. Sorry about the net being depicted in my signature. . .I'm just not talented enough to draw freestylers! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 23:36:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18671 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:36:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18667 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:36:09 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18664) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA18662 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:36:09 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA30699 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:36:31 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA09063 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:38:54 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Darren Kautz wrote: > I have been reading about this paradox thing for the past 40 damn >messages and here is what I see: A big circulating argument in which >nothing has been resolved. Baloney. Progress is already being made. You just have to accommodate the people who are commenting after the conversation has already moved to the next issue. The few of us who are really arguing this stuff are reaching consensus and hashing out the issues, while a bunch of folks are writing in their opinions on earlier messages before they've caught up. No big deal; the conversation is really moving fast right now so you just have to try to navigate through the mess. I am sure it's hard to follow and the volume is high -- hopefully it'll calm down but I am personally excited that we're getting on with this. There's no point complaining about a freestyle discussion getting way down and dirty on the new **freestyle** list. If you don't want to talk about freestyle, feel free to leave the list. :-) Or at least get on the digest. > Paradox is an ill-defined term that has been around for too long. Baloney. My picture at the bottom of a previous message is a serious attempt to clearly illustrates what a "paradox" dexterity is. And I coined a new term called an "alpha" dexterity (people had already talked about an "S" dexterity for in-out paradox) and we can use it to make progress in this discussion. I think we're moving forward. > Ever try to explain paradox to a fresh new freestlyer? It doesn't >make any bloody sense and they are confused. Which is not unreasonable >since EVERYONE is confused. That's what we're discussing -- how to SIMPLY define paradox. I think the S and alpha descriptions will help. But we (those of us who care) have to agree about whether or not alpha moves are paradox, and if we in fact can agree on S. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 00:15:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18866 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:15:49 GMT Message-Id: <199610170015.AAA18866@eniac.yak.net.taz> From: Sunil Jani Subject: [freestyle] Re: Modifiers... To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:09:09 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Okay, I just caught up on sixty messages since yesterday afternoon so I feel qualified to respond to some of them... According to Steven L. Goldberg: > > Yup, I agree. I guess I was saying it is a "modifier" as opposed to an "add > category". The category it *modifies* is dexterity. But modifiers and > categories still count as adds. > > We have to be careful anyway with the way we talk about adds versus add > categories; and if we add a concept like add "modifier" it may get more > complicated than it already is or should be. I am against the use of add "modifiers"... yes paradoxes are always in relation to a dexterity, but what is wrong with giving this a body add? Isn't the body add just a category which combines several different types of add variations (ie symposium,flyer, hop over, etc...). Why create this "modifier" and further confuse EVERYONE, except Steve?? Sunil Jani -- PENN FOOTBAG --- experience it... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 00:17:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18892 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:17:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18888 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:17:34 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18885) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA18882 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:17:33 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA31158 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:17:54 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA39490 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:18:54 -0400 From: Sunil Jani Message-Id: <199610170018.UAA39490@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:18:54 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Scott Davidson" at Oct 16, 96 05:28:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Scott Davidson: > > >Rippin has siad it's not paradox, and Kenny has siad it is... > >so what do you think? (Isn't it ironic, don't you think ;->) > > >Setting from rt. foot clip., spin clockwise about 270 degrees, > >then perform an in-out (c-clockwise) mirage with the left leg, > >ending on a right toe. > > >So, is it a spinning mirage, or a spinning paradox mirage? > >3 or 4 adds? > > A spin negates a paradox, so I side with Rippin. I have been doing this > move for years and never expected a paradox add. > I fully agree with Scott... a spinning paradox mirage would be a 360 spin with a right foot in out dex ending on left toe. Sunil -- PENN FOOTBAG From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 00:29:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18948 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:29:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18944 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:29:52 GMT Received: from dk713994@oak.cats.ohiou.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18941) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA18939 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:29:52 GMT Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA31333 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:30:11 -0700 Received: from localhost by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA15998; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:36:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:36:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Darren R. Kautz" To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox Debate In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > That's what we're discussing -- how to SIMPLY define paradox. I think the > S and alpha descriptions will help. But we (those of us who care) have to > agree about whether or not alpha moves are paradox, and if we in fact can > agree on S. Point well made. Correct me if I'm wrong here: The root of the problem seems to be that stinking paradox around the world (or lack thereof). Because as of right now it seems that most S moves are called paradox (blur, paradox whirl, blurry whirl, etc...) and most alpha moves are the same way (blizzard being the only I can presently think of). Then the problem occurs again during higher level moves. Especially with spins. And it seems that a spin eradicates the paradox concept. I'm doing my damdest to keep up with this. Correct me if any of the above information is way wrong. \ O Darren O / \ /\ Russell - /- . | \ Kautz / \ | From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 00:32:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18967 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:32:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18963 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:32:36 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18960) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA18958 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:32:36 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA31378 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:32:55 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA29352; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:33:54 -0400 From: Sunil Jani Message-Id: <199610170033.UAA29352@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Still more paradox debate... To: brat@research.apple.com (Steven L. Goldberg) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Steven L. Goldberg" at Oct 16, 96 01:28:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I still don't see why certain people are against paradox guay getting the third add (for paradox). Please Daryl, Scott, Kenny... anyone who is against or has been sited to be against it reply and explain... Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 00:39:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA19060 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:39:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA19056 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:39:34 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19053) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA19051 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:39:25 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA31410 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:39:44 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA49656; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:40:35 -0400 From: Sunil Jani Message-Id: <199610170040.UAA49656@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Still more pdox debate... To: brat@research.apple.com (Steven L. Goldberg) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Steven L. Goldberg" at Oct 16, 96 01:28:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Examples of S moves are all in-out paradox dexterities -- i.e., paradox > mirage, paradox whirl, paradox guay :-), paradox drifter, etc. > > Examples of "alpha" moves are all out-in so-called "paradox" dexterities -- > i.e., "paradox" reverse mirage, (front-side) "paradox" (backside) symposium > reverse mirage, etc. > > Examples of "alpha" moves not currently thought to be "paradox" are: > reverse mirage, butterfly, barfly, etc. > > I don't know how to reconcile the "alpha" moves; perhaps the motion of the > dexterity is not the key after all. > Now that I understand alpha and s type paradoxes... I see that in barfly, butterfly, and plain old reverse mirage... there is not a complete alpha type motion... that is in reverse mirage it does not start behind the other (support) leg and in barfly and butterfly the other leg (original support leg) does not come back up in front of you (meaning the set leg does not come back down and away-- completing the alpha motion). So I think it may simplify this debate if it is stated that there must be a "complete" alpha motion (in alpha moves) to garner a paradox add. Bring it on! Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 01:13:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA19271 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:13:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA19267 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:13:30 GMT Received: from elklein@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19264) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA19262 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:13:29 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA31948 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:13:48 -0700 Received: (from elklein@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id VAA29653 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:14:49 -0400 (EDT) From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610170114.VAA29653@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Penn State Phish To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:14:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Freestylers/Phish fans, Tomorrow Phish is playing in the Happy Valley of Penn state University. Many of us Penn Footbaggers are making the pilgrammage to State College for the show and will be shredding from 3:00 to showtime in the parking lot. Be there or be squizzernare. Awesome session here in Philly today- post Tuan Vu influenced smoothyness. Sunil "Turbo" Jani nailed two double toe whirls and almost nailed atom smasher from both sides. The man knows no bounds. I want to hear freestyler's most current phatty combos or tricks. Don't be shy - I need a little reprise from the barrage of paradoxical debating. Later, Ethan My latest, phattest shit includes offside (non-dominant) drifter into paradox mirage (today) and barrage, paradox symposium mirage, and paradox whirl in the same extendo, tiltless juggle. (It felt SOOOO niiiice!) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 02:30:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA19696 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:28:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA19692 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:28:54 GMT Received: from danzilla@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19689) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA19687 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:28:44 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA00039 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:48 -0700 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 17 Oct 1996 02:29:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 17 Oct 1996 02:25:54 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-41-9.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.121]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA15766 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:12:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:12:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199610162212.RAA15766@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu (Dan Sharber) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org OK. Here's my drop in the bucket in this debate. There seems to be, in my understanding, two different things that could make something paradox. For example, a paradox mirage is paradox because of the motion necessary for the dexterity. While paradox reverse mirage, on the other hand, is such because of the motion it takes to "come back" for the catch, not the dexterity. If you did a double around the world (outside in) from a clipper set with the set foot and then caught in on the opposite toe, it would be a paradox dbl reverse mirage because of the motion for the catch (dex direction becoming unimportant). Paradox eggbeater as well as blizzard would fall under this same principle. The "paradox" whirl, on the other hand, does satisfy the "paradox" motion in the dex and should be considered paradox despite the fact that the bag is caught on the same side of the body that the dex occurs (the catch being unimportant due to satisying the paradox component in the dex). Obviously, this would cover paradox blenders and paradox torques etc. So your guay or what ever should be paradox if you get the change in direction for the dex. This is just my personal interpretation. Enough for now. Later, Dan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 03:13:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19851 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:12:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19847 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:11:59 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19844) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA19842 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:11:59 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA00542 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:12:11 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA32692 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:13:18 -0400 From: Sunil Jani Message-Id: <199610170313.XAA32692@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Name it... To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:13:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey All: I was just wondering what this move was called... left toe set, right double dex (inside out style), to left toe stall I have been told that it was double barrage, but this makes no sense. I think it may be double mirage, which would make much more sense...Does anyone know what this is called? I am sure you do, Vince. Also, if it is called dble barrage... please explain why. Sunil PHILLY PHREESTYLE... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 03:19:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19900 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:18:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19896 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:18:36 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19893) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA19891 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:18:35 GMT Received: from dvorak.Colorado.EDU (dvorak.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.73]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA00601; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:18:48 -0700 Received: from dvorak (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dvorak.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id VAA05466; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:47 -0600 Message-ID: <3265A739.41C67EA6@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:45 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Davidson CC: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Scott Davidson wrote: > > Hi Freestylers! > > Bens system is okay, but don't you think it would be a little tough on > newbies? Especially those who want to know more about freestyle? > > Lets stick to long-hand when posting to the general list. > > See ya! > Scott. I don't know about that one. Let me just say before I start that I talked to Ben today and he and I agree that the system and list that were posted were only perliminary! It still needs a *lot* of work to smooth it out. BUT, once we figure it out, it will be IDEAL for beginners, mainly due to the fact that they won't have to know the name of a single move to understand it. And, since it should be a relitively simple system to use/understand - people will be able to learn the names we're more familar with. Our names make *zero* sense to poeple who aren't familiar with them, whereas with this new system, they (newbies) will be able to understand what every trick is simply by knowing the few basic (logical) terms in Ben's system. Pogo Paradox Symposium Whirl makes sense once you understand our system, but to anyone else, it sounds like some obscure physics phenomenon - whereas Ben's system would say clip>(no plant while)> opp out dex>(no plant while)>same in dex>opp clip. OK, so it's not totally simple, but all you have to understand is clip, opp, same, no plant, in, out, spin, and toe - all totally simple terms that you need not no anything about footbag to figure out - and you can describe nearly any move. Anyway, enough said (for now ;->) Daryl From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 04:05:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA20097 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:05:24 GMT From: "oMEn" Organization: Auckland Institute of Technology To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:03:46 GMT+12 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Name it... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.21 Message-ID: <2D1BB15794D@chcsn1.ait.ac.nz> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org | left toe set, right double dex (inside out style), to left toe | stall yep double mirage it is, i think if you circled it the other way it still would be too... l8r damianco@chcsn1.ait.ac.nz \O |\ A.F.F.C. Co-President / \_o \ ` ' From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 05:59:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA20387 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:59:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA20383 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:59:10 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20380) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA20378 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:59:10 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02163 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:59:24 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.93] ([17.127.19.93]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA11863 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:01:00 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:28 PM -0700 10/16/96, Scott Davidson wrote: >>Setting from rt. foot clip., spin clockwise about 270 degrees, >>then perform an in-out (c-clockwise) mirage with the left leg, >>ending on a right toe. > >>So, is it a spinning mirage, or a spinning paradox mirage? >>3 or 4 adds? > >A spin negates a paradox, so I side with Rippin. I have been doing this >move for years and never expected a paradox add. Okay. This argument keeps coming up because people (like Scott) use the wrong terminology to explain the thinking here. So I will try a more correct statement: ... Spinning (or gyrating) TAKES THE PLACE of paradox in most cases ... It doesn't *negate* it. It doesn't cancel it out. It just *subsumes* it. You get an add for the spin; the dexterity is made more complicated by the spin. Therefore there's no need to consider the "body" add for the paradox (or whatever reasoning you want to give for there being an extra add for paradox moves). At least, this is the thinking. I happen to disagree with it but I wanted to clarify what I understand the argument to be. I won't be convinced there's *no* way to have both a spin and a paradox, though, until someone can make me see why an S-dexterity after a spin isn't harder than a simple dexterity after a spin. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 06:50:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA20697 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:50:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA20693 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:50:48 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20690) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA20688 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:50:48 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA02725 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:51:05 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CAG28552; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:28:18 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:46:10 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Message-ID: <19961016.234610.3590.6.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610162014.NAA28216@market.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5-6,8-17,19-22 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry in advance about the double posting, people.... there's just too much to handle all at once. Not like I mind, or anything. > I'd like to further propose [if I may be so bold] that combos >be notated by a ">>" between each move. This certainly isn't necessary, >but seems easier on the eyes to see at-a-glance where each move ends >(without having to start on a separate line or otherwise comment on it, plus >you only have to indicate the catch foot once). > > For example, I enjoy hitting Paradon into Barrage: > >toe > op out dex > same out dex > op clip >> op in dex > same in dex > >op toe > > Bad idea? More confusing than listing them separately? Anyway, I don't think it's really neccessary, as each contact indicates the end of a move, and they're usually toe and clipper. But if that's the way you're gonna do it, I'm not gonna complain. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 06:57:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA20743 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:57:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA20739 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:57:39 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20736) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA20734 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:57:39 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA02755 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:57:56 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CAA28552; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:28:18 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:26:05 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re: More Paradox debate-and more! Message-ID: <19961016.234610.3590.0.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,5,7-12,14-18,20,22-31,33-36,38-42 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I think we should decide if we agree or not whether paradox is just >the S motion, and if the "alpha" motion is something different (as opposed >to just the logical reverse of the S motion for reverse paradox >dexterities). We also need to decide that, if S and alpha are different enough, >whether or not alpha moves deserve an extra add. Of course, the problem here >is the alpha moves, not the S moves. >Examples of S moves are all in-out paradox dexterities -- i.e., >paradox >mirage, paradox whirl, paradox guay :-), paradox drifter, etc. Weeell, okay, even though p-whirl can and is often done so without, I will agree. >Examples of "alpha" moves not currently thought to be "paradox" are: >reverse mirage, butterfly, barfly, etc. I don't think we can really put butterfly into the same category, as the dexterity leg really only goes around the bag one way and not back. But dragonfly would apply. As Sunil says, the completion of the alpha to garner the add. >I don't know how to reconcile the "alpha" moves; perhaps the motion of >the dexterity is not the key after all. I think it would have more to do with the relation to the set and catch, such as the incidental twist of paradox reverse. >I know for sure an S move when I see it, though, and that leads me >back to my original argument that paradox guay is definitely paradox, beyond a >shadow of a doubt. If folks don't agree with this, then we have to get >down and dirty about each case individually -- first, let's discuss >in-out dexterities and what makes them "paradox". Then, in a separate >thread, let's discuss out-in dexterities. I don't see how we can argue both at >the same time. Hear, hear. This is fun, but a little thick. Josh From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 07:13:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA20807 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:13:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA20803 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:13:14 GMT Received: from cen00989@centuryinter.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20800) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA20798 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:13:14 GMT Received: from host.pc.centuryinter.net ([206.65.177.250]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA02947 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:13:27 -0700 Received: from anxp26.gr.centuryinter.net by host.pc.centuryinter.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/16Aug95-0520PM) id AA26927; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:13:10 -0400 Message-Id: <32660658.7F9A@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:11:36 -0700 From: Medical Library X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Monster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello everyone. I have had indepth discussion with Rick, Ken and Tim about the subject of paradox. This is what came of it. A complex definition that should fit. Rule #1 Paradox can ONLY be done from a X-body set. #2 The dex. (that counts) is always done with the set foot. #3 Only 1 paradox add can be counted for any 1 move. The definitions herein are based on where you delay the bag. A.If the delay occurs on the toe, inside or outsde of the foot, then for it to be paradox it MUST be done to the opposite foot.(NOT the set foot) ie. blur, blizzard, P.eggbeater etc. B.If the delay is to a X-body then the dex will be done with the set foot. ie. p.whirl, p.drifter,p.blender etc. regardless of the side of the body the delay occurs. EXCLUSION!! The dexterity of outsde in. Barfly and butterfly do NOT get a paradox add because of how easy it is. Barfly is worth 4 adds and so is p.whirl. P.dble whirl would be wothy of 5 adds. Butterfly only worthy of 3 adds. These rules can be applied to anyone of the moves out there. But we need to meet on some common ground with the way Paradox adds were set up in the first place. The first Paradox was p.mirage, to the OPPOSITE toe. Use that as the basis of the definition for A. The first X-body paradox was paradox whirl. Use that as the basis for B. I think that should clear up some areas and totally blur others but hey what can I say. I usually stay out of this stuff but thats my 2cents(no cent sign) So then steve and anyone else. The only way for a guay to be paradox is for the delay to occur on the opposite foot. Hence 2adds. Not worthy of any more. sorry:( I'm sure my isp provider will love all the mail I will be getting.:) Respectfully submitted Hu-Mungis ps please send all replies to the list so all can read. Thnx From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 07:17:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA20834 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:17:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA20830 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:17:00 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20827) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA20825 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:16:59 GMT Received: from dvorak.Colorado.EDU (dvorak.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.73]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA02965 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:17:17 -0700 Received: from dvorak (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dvorak.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id BAA05701; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:24:19 -0600 Message-ID: <3265DF21.446B9B3D@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:24:17 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name References: <3265A739.41C67EA6@bechtel.colorado.edu> <19961017.000411.3590.8.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > > It still needs a *lot* of work to smooth it out. > > I wouldn't mind in any help ya might need, Daryl. I've got lots of spare > time... I've gotta finish writing a little paper (my thesis) before Thanksgiving, so I personally don't plan on working on it much before then. > > >Pogo Paradox Symposium Whirl makes sense once you understand our > >system, but to anyone else, it sounds like some obscure physics > >phenomenon - whereas Ben's system would say clip>(no plant while)> > >opp out dex>(no plant while)>same in dex>opp clip. > > But wouldn't there be some kind of switch of footing to keep the > symposium? > It isn't entirely clear here. > Uhhh .... I just made that one up because it sounded confusing. I'm not sure you could really do this move, since normally you would have to plant the set foot to make the whirl symposium - but, if you did plant, you'd lose the pogo. Later, Daryl From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 07:25:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA20860 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:25:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA20856 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:25:25 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20853) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA20851 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:25:25 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03059 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:25:39 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.93] ([17.127.19.93]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA12414 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32660658.7F9A@centuryinter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:27:17 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Monster Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:11 AM -0700 10/17/96, Medical Library wrote: >Hello everyone. Hey, Paul, try to send from your real account! Nobody knows how to reply directly to you. For the rest of you, Paul's real return address is . >Rule #1 Paradox can ONLY be done from a X-body set. > #2 The dex. (that counts) is always done with the set foot. > #3 Only 1 paradox add can be counted for any 1 move. Sorry, I disagree. #1 is especially wrong. You can set paradox mirage from a zoom if you want. Why make up random rules like that? These three rules are not nearly sufficient to tell for sure! So then you go on to A, B, and exclusion below... > A.If the delay occurs on the toe, inside or outsde of the foot, then >for it to be paradox it MUST be done to the opposite foot.(NOT the set >foot) ie. blur, blizzard, P.eggbeater etc. Seems arbitrary -- *why*? That's what we're getting at -- what's the MEAT of paradox. What makes it paradox. I think the S-dexterity motion is a MUCH simpler and much more correct way to define paradox. >EXCLUSION!! The dexterity of outsde in. Barfly and butterfly do NOT >get a paradox add because of how easy it is. Barfly is worth 4 adds and >so is p.whirl. P.dble whirl would be wothy of 5 adds. Butterfly only >worthy of 3 adds. Another arbitrary rule: "too easy" so certain moves don't deserve it. Look again at what I've said about the S-motion and the alpha-motion; I think it makes a *lot* more sense. >So then steve and anyone else. The only way for a guay to be paradox is >for the delay to occur on the opposite foot. Hence 2adds. Not worthy of >any more. sorry:( Well at least someone explained their reasoning behind this, but I still don't think it's right. But listen, again, Paul, to my question: what is different between Paradox Drifter and Paradox Guay? In terms of the difficulty? Only one component is different in our current add system -- the cross-body pickup. Look at the two moves; they're very similar. Why a 2-add spread between them? Makes NO sense. >I'm sure my isp provider will love all the mail I will be getting.:) You might want to switch to the digest -- let me know if you can't figure it out. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 12:59:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA21340 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:58:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA21336 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:58:51 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (21333) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA21331 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:58:51 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA06241 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:59:09 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d182.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.182]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA13907; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:00:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:01:52 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Steve and Freestylers! >>Alright. Paradox Guay = 2 adds. >WRONG. >>I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the bag >>is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. By >>change in direction I mean the following: >It doesn't really matter what you *think* a paradox move should involve. A >paradox move *is* a move in which the dexterity leg travels the *long way >around* the bag. That's Kenny's definition and I think it's right. I >mean, would you argue with the MASTER? Yes. If you ask him specifically about guay and "paradox" guay, I am certain he will say they are the same, NO paradox. I understand his "long way around" theory on paradox, and that is how I looked at it for years. >>If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over exists >>and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe >>instead of inside. >That's like saying if you believe in paradox whirl, you MUST believe in >paradox butterfly. Huh? See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 13:37:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA21410 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:37:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA21406 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:37:40 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (21403) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA21401 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:37:40 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA06664 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:38:00 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d182.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.182]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA14497; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:38:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:40:40 -0500 To: Sunil Jani , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Name it... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! > left toe set, right double dex (inside out style), to left toe > stall Double Mirage. See ya! Enlightener. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 14:10:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA21527 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:10:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA21523 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:10:52 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (21520) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA21518 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:10:51 GMT Received: from po2.wam.umd.edu (po2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.134]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07069 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:11:14 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id KAA29386; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:11:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id KAA13254; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171411.KAA13254@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org, the_sock@ihug.co.nz Subject: Re: [freestyle] The not so great Symposium Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org there is only one way to do symposium, catch air after you set. begin and end dexterity while the bag is in the air. in symposium whirl, the lifitng motion used to get the body into the air,' prior to the actual jump, lifts the bag off the clippette, ideally. but please don't say you are setting as you start the symposium. just irks me i guess. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 14:22:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA21564 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:22:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA21560 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:22:52 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (21557) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA21555 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:22:52 GMT Received: from po2.wam.umd.edu (po2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.134]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07181 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:23:13 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id KAA01656; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:24:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id KAA14635; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171424.KAA14635@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu, brat@research.apple.com Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org since when does the brat have a right to say who is worng about anything in freestyle. and when did kenny shults say paradox is a move where the dexterity goes the long way aroungd the bag? and if he did actually say it, you better be able to say what he meant by long- maybe by his definition, only tall people can do it, and i know he'd have fun with that idea. you're sounding sick, brat. l8r- vicne er, vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 14:35:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00171 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:33:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00167 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:33:38 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (164) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA00162 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:33:38 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07299 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:32:22 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id KAA03384; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:32:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id KAA15035; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171432.KAA15035@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: Derrick-Fogle@lanit.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org it's a valid way to explain why a paradox add exists. much more valid reasoning than a body definition. much easier to grasp. but in terms of defining which moves should receive additional adds and which don't, i think it wise to leave it a little unfocussed. i definitely sound whacked on this one, but if you declare a paradox element as a dexterity around something other than the footbag, then the possibilities that come to mind for anyone wanting to be hitting more adds ( insert igor snicker here "More Adds!") are endless. like Chard and Scotts choreographed leg extensions. yes i am taking the idea to a definite extreme- but technically they are hooping air, so dexterity is involved, pho' as it may be. gotta split- this freestyle list is way outta control. 81 messages in less than two days... adios- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 14:39:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00211 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:38:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00207 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:38:07 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (204) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA00202 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:38:06 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07194 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:26:11 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-16.kode.net [206.42.219.35]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA00704 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:33:15 -0700 Message-ID: <326641F1.6F62@Kode.net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:25:53 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Monster References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Hello everyone. > > I have had indepth discussion with Rick, Ken and Tim about the subject > of paradox. > > This is what came of it. > > A complex definition that should fit. > > Rule #1 Paradox can ONLY be done from a X-body set. > #2 The dex. (that counts) is always done with the set foot. > #3 Only 1 paradox add can be counted for any 1 move. > > The definitions herein are based on where you delay the bag. > > A.If the delay occurs on the toe, inside or outsde of the foot, then > for it to be paradox it MUST be done to the opposite foot.(NOT the set > foot) ie. blur, blizzard, P.eggbeater etc. > > B.If the delay is to a X-body then the dex will be done with the set > foot. ie. p.whirl, p.drifter,p.blender etc. regardless of the side of > the body the delay occurs. > > EXCLUSION!! The dexterity of outsde in. Barfly and butterfly do NOT > get a paradox add because of how easy it is. Barfly is worth 4 adds and > so is p.whirl. P.dble whirl would be wothy of 5 adds. Butterfly only > worthy of 3 adds. > > These rules can be applied to anyone of the moves out there. But we need > to meet on some common ground with the way Paradox adds were set up in > the first place. > > The first Paradox was p.mirage, to the OPPOSITE toe. Use that as the > basis of the definition for A. > > The first X-body paradox was paradox whirl. Use that as the basis for B. > > I think that should clear up some areas and totally blur others but hey > what can I say. I usually stay out of this stuff but thats my 2cents(no > cent sign) > > So then steve and anyone else. The only way for a guay to be paradox is > for the delay to occur on the opposite foot. Hence 2adds. Not worthy of > any more. sorry:( > > I'm sure my isp provider will love all the mail I will be getting.:) > > Respectfully submitted > > Hu-Mungis > > ps please send all replies to the list so all can read. Thnx From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 14:46:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00234 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:46:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00230 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:46:41 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (227) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA00225 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:46:40 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07554 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:45:20 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id KAA05626; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id KAA16022; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171446.KAA16022@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: Derrick-Fogle@lanit.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org defining the greater dificulty of paradox mirages over paradox around the worlds as being a window problem is brilliant. the around the worlds to toes do not have a window problem. and, depending on execution, neither would guays. i would say that there is in fact less leg dewxterity in a guay than in an around the world in the first place. most of the dexterity is acheived in a guay through the movement of the thigh, and the placemtn of the inside surface under the bag. an around the world from any set except opposite foot clippette set, has real dexterity- the shin must do a revolution fully around the aerial bag. so in this regard, a paradox around the world, or a paradox legover pickup (depending on your frame of reference ) deserves a paradox add more than does a paradox guay. because it has truer dexterity, and a more difficult window problem. but, to agree with derrick ( i think i agree, anyway ) the add labeled paradox given to some moevs and not others, is the result of constructing adequate window space for the bag to travel through. paradox around the worlds of all kinds don't have as much difficulty in this department as do most other paradox related moves. paradox whirl comes to mind- but this is a matter of execution. if a person spins off the set, they doi away with the need to make any extra body motions to increase the window of the whirl dexterity. if they spin less, the paradox motion (dexterity feeling aspect ) has to increase to accomodate the bag through the dexterity. in terms of add count, the spin that negates the need for the dexterity could be interpretted as worthy of the same amount of adds as what i am leablling paradox, and if you define paradox to be additional body moves performed to create adequate window space from difficult sets, then Ken's concepts of paradox as i understand them are validated, as are everyone elses viewpoints on the subject. and then it comes down to whether or not the moves made to increase window space are necessary enough to be considered an across the board apllication of add descriptions for that move, independent o of particulars in execution. and, for JOSH, i do not LIVE for this stuff. i live for procrastinating, and this stuff kicks ass in that department. adios- have to not get back to work- l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 15:00:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00267 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:00:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00263 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:00:38 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (260) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00258 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:00:38 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07655 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:59:20 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA07834; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:00:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id LAA17831; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171500.LAA17831@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org, genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org that move has all the aspects of a paradox to me also, and i have discussed it with shults in the past. what you described is essentially all the original characteristics that were defined as gyro, i think. originally, gyro was a spin to a retrograde dexterity- you spin one way , and do a dexterity the other on the pickup. like in gyro butterfly, the original "gyro." shults argument about it not being paradox probably stems from his ability and method for doing spins. when shults spins, he spins, then does something else. the spin is separate step in any move he executes. so for him to do the move you describe, it would be a spin, and then, no matter which leg does the dext, it would simply be a mirage. for me to do the move, and for how i see most others do moves similarly, i would still be finishing my spin as i try to do the dext, so it would feel paradox to me to do the move you describe, and not feel a paradox when doing the dext with the other leg. sorry for the cryptic lack o tenses, but i think my ideas are clear, and i know my time is short. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 15:13:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00290 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:13:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00286 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:13:52 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (283) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00281 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:13:52 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA07842; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:12:33 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA09898; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:13:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id LAA19154; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171513.LAA19154@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: enlightener@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org, genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org whoa- apparently i misinterpretted who liked the paradox add and who didn;t. iam flabbergasted by that situation then. my apologies for poor reading. maybe rick is the quicker spinner. with respect to brats earlier posting, ihad always thought of doing a dext paradox, and doing a spin before a dext as being two ways of doing a dexterity the long way, so i am inclined to agree with scott and rippin. spin is paradox. both are body moves made to open windows for a dexterity. from the windows standpoint though, if you aren't completely spun, then which leg you use affects the size of the window. so one would feel harder than the other. but this is symptomatic of not spinning enough, instead of characteristic of having to do more to complete the move, so in short, i think kenny must be wrong. and it feels great to say it. now i only hope the words i have reacted to are actually his. where are you shults? still upholding the covenant under the rainbow? no interference with Thine creation? l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 15:28:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00392 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:28:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00388 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:28:10 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (385) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00383 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:28:09 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA07951 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:26:53 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA12367; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id LAA20669; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171527.LAA20669@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: brat@research.apple.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Baloney. >Baloney. My picture at the bottom of a previous message is a serious attempt to clearly illustrates what a "paradox" dexterity is. Baloney. it defines what you think a paradox dexterity should be seen as. it does nothing to actually define paradox. only how you define it, and use it. or abuse it. and how the hell is something made simpler in definition throught the use of diagrams? the next newbie i meet who asks- "here let me draw you a picture" would be my answer? gimme abreak steve, and stop being so obnoxious. let's have discussions, and maybe even argue a bit, but save the insults, and the arrogance, or i might decide the only reason i have to stay on this list is to constantly barrage you with my typos and poor grammatical creations. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 15:30:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00419 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:30:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00415 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:30:02 GMT Received: from casey@emuvax.emich.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (412) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00410 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:30:01 GMT From: CASEY@emuvax.emich.edu Received: from hardy.emich.edu (hardy.emich.edu [164.76.4.4]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07960 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:28:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:28:02 -0400 (EDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-Id: <961017112802.20c0f729@emuvax.emich.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello! first of all, symposium is an extremely clear concept and there should be no argument about it. The reason you get an add for symposium in a symposium whirl is because the plant leg did the dexterity without the set leg ever touching the ground from the beginning to the end of the move. In other words once you initiate the symposium you cant plant the set leg if you want the adds. for example sym paradox whirl, you set then plant and then the newly planted leg does the dexterity and lands without the other leg contacting the ground. So, Pogo blizzard does not get an extra add because after the first symposium which is the pogo you plant your set leg. the move is still a cool move and could be classified as a unique move but no add should be given. this system for symposium cleans up the arguments and makes it clear cut and doesnt' give an undeserved add for a pogo move. If you think otherwise Id like to hear it. Paradox guay and paradox atw do not get paradox adds BECAUSE the paradox was not completed, it stopped half way and bailed. To get the add you would have to continue to the other toe like a paradox mirage or back to the clipper for a paradox drifter, for example. Paradox isn't really that big of a deal. there are really only a few types of paradox moves that all paradox moves can be classified in. All you have to do is say which type of paradox move is that. its simple, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. It does seem clear what the paradox motion it right? Either you take your set leg and go inside out or outside in around the bag. If you go inside out and you want the bag to end up on the opposite side of the body that the bag was set on then the bag must be caught in the clipper. that is one type. an example is a paradox whirl, or you go outside in and end up on the same side as you set the bag. that would mean either the clipper or the leg that didn't do the paradox dexterity. that is another type. an example is a paradox mirage or a paradox drifter. This also can explain why a paradox guay and paradox atw don't get a paradox add, because they don't fall into any of the predefined types of paradox. as far as outside in paradox like a reverse paradox mirage there is only one type and the bag must return back to the orignal set clipper or the leg that didn't do the dexterity. That takes care of the reverse paradox theory. That is why blizzard gets a paradox add and dbl leg over doesn't, it also explains why barfly doesnot get a paradox it. I know its long winded but it is simple and clear, there should be no debate. \ Josh From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 15:32:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00443 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:32:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00439 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:32:51 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (436) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00434 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:32:51 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA08059 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:31:35 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.110]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA13013; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:31:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id LAA20860; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610171531.LAA20860@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: brat@research.apple.com, sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Still more paradox debate... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org if i do a clipper stall then a toe stall with the set leg, do i get two adds? i mean, my leg did the paradox motion to be able to toe stall it in front of me, didn't it? l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 15:39:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00470 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:39:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00466 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:39:15 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (463) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00461 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:39:14 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA08091 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:37:58 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d182.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.182]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id KAA17495; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:38:43 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:40:27 -0500 To: Procrastinator the VIIIth , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Vince and freestylers! >when shults spins, he spins, then does something else. >the spin is separate step in any move he executes. >so for him to do the move you describe, it would be a spin, and then, no matter >which leg does the dext, it would simply be a mirage. Which is, BTW, the proper way to spin. At least it is the way I spin, and I have a ton of spinning moves. Completing your spin before you execute the next portion of the move is the trick to being consistant in spinning moves. Oh, and DON'T Look UP! (That is from the Enforcer himself). See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 16:02:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00516 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:02:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00512 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:02:23 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (509) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00507 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:02:22 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA08304 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:58:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199610171558.IAA08304@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-65.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA049007976; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:36 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:52:19 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:28 AM 10/17/96 -0400, CASEY@emuvax.emich.edu wrote: >first of all, symposium is an extremely clear concept and there should >be no argument about it. Well, what about toe-set Butterfly Stall with no plant? That doesn't get a Symposium add by anyone I know. How about a clip-set same-side Butterfly Stall with no plant? Does that get a Symposium add? I for one don't feel Symposium is "extremely" clear...though I'll admit it's not as cloudy as Paradox. -- Ernest M. Crvich Durham, NC, USA, Earth Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 16:10:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00537 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:10:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00533 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:10:23 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (530) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00528 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:10:22 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA08399 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:08:56 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10015 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:21:16 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBBC1B.FB5E70F0@www.lanit.com>; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:11:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:11:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was under the impression that some of us were trying to evolve the old rules of paradox and delve into the subject for better understanding of the concept. There has been some concensus among players on the list that paradox can be done from an outside set. It also seems a little strange that for one instance the set is what makes the difference. Usually, when looking at add content, difficulty, and uniqueness, the set makes no difference. I still have heard no sound reasoning why the foot switch is necessary to make the move paradox, other than just saying "that's the way it is." The only valid distinction I can find is that the foot switch forces a plant and the resulting body weight shift at pretty much the moment that the contact is being made. Defining paradox in terms of "Foot must start here, do this, and end up there" does lend further credence to my idea that paradox is really a dexterity element. Perfect example of constrained foot paths. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 17:35:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00782 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:35:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00778 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:35:47 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (775) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00773 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:35:47 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA09372 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:34:29 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.93] ([17.127.19.93]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15771 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:25:33 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:01 AM -0700 10/17/96, Scott Davidson wrote: >>around* the bag. That's Kenny's definition and I think it's right. I >>mean, would you argue with the MASTER? > >Yes. If you ask him specifically about guay and "paradox" guay, I am >certain he will say they are the same, NO paradox. I understand his "long >way around" theory on paradox, and that is how I looked at it for years. Then could you please tell us what you think Kenny means by "long way around"? It sure seems like the foot travels just as far around (if not more) for paradox guay than for paradox mirage from the same set. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 17:35:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00793 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:35:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00789 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:35:56 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (786) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00784 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:35:55 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA09376 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:34:37 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.93] ([17.127.19.93]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15777 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610171527.LAA20669@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:35:51 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:27 AM -0700 10/17/96, Procrastinator the VIIIth wrote: >>Baloney. My picture at the bottom of a previous message is a serious >attempt to clearly illustrates what a "paradox" dexterity is. > >Baloney. it defines what you think a paradox dexterity should be seen as. >it does nothing to actually define paradox. only how you define it, and >use it. >or abuse it. Whoa, buddy. Don't get nasty. That's exactly what I *am* doing -- putting my personal view out there so people can shoot holes in it. I'm just trying to communicate. If you don't think my S-dexterity and alpha-dexterity diagrams are useful tools for discussing paradox, please explain why. That'll help us know whether we agree or disagree on what really makes something paradox, and move on to the next level. It doesn't help to just say slam it without an explanation. >and how the hell is something made simpler in definition throught the use >of diagrams? the next newbie i meet who asks- "here let me draw you a >picture" would be my answer? I thought most people agreed that diagrams were a powerful tool for communicating; something we could probably use more of. Would you prefer I write the definitions for my position in Latin? Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 17:40:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00841 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:40:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00837 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:40:48 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (834) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00832 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:40:48 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA09387 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:39:30 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d182.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.182]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id MAA21149; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:40:06 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:41:49 -0500 To: CASEY@emuvax.emich.edu From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Chizzler and Freestylers! >So, Pogo blizzard does >not get an extra add because after the first symposium which is the pogo >you plant your set leg. the move is still a cool move and could be >classified as a unique move but no add should be given. The trouble here is, it looks unique, but should NOT get a unique move because it is technically the same move. They would get unique moves in situations where the add categories change in some way. >Paradox guay and paradox atw do not get paradox adds BECAUSE the paradox >was not completed, it stopped half way and bailed. Go Chizzler! >Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. That is a problem statement. NOWHERE else in the entire freestyle system does a move get described based on its set let. ALL move definitions assume *any* set and the motions necessary plus the ending contact. However, it *does* seem to be a consistant factor in paradox moves, and if some of the harder headed people out there would just back down on this point, we would have a nice simple clean definition for paradox. See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener IFAB Freestyle Committee Director From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 17:54:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00946 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:54:05 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00942 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:54:04 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (939) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00937 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:54:04 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA09587 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:52:46 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.93] ([17.127.19.93]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15997 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610171558.IAA08304@Market.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:54:13 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:52 AM -0700 10/17/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: > Well, what about toe-set Butterfly Stall with no plant? That >doesn't get a Symposium add by anyone I know. Ahem, one more time, here's the definition of symposium I don't think anyone is disputing (though it's my wording, I'm not trying to say anything new): ... A body move whereby the planted foot performs a dexterity in the air and is then replanted ... In other words, you have to *start* and *end* the dexterity with your dexterity leg on the ground. Clearly with toe-set butterfly, your setting foot is not your plant foot. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 18:01:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA00979 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:01:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA00975 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:01:12 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (972) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA00970 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:01:11 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA09629 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:59:50 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.93] ([17.127.19.93]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA16069 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:00:55 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Casey wrote: >Paradox guay and paradox atw do not get paradox adds BECAUSE the paradox >was not completed, it stopped half way and bailed. Okay, that's a MUCH more sensible explanation. However (I'm really not trying to be contrary) I honestly still don't see what you mean. To me, it's *harder* to get your leg all the way around the bag to do the guay than to bail to the other toe! You close the window *and* pull down the shades to hit paradox guay! Just compare it to paradox-mirage off the same set and I hope you'll see what I mean. But let me just say this before anyone attacks me for nit-picking on paradox guay --> I'm not defending this move so *I* can get an extra add. That'd be silly. I have enough 3- and 4-add moves in my little (albeit small :-)) repertoire. I'm using paradox guay as a prototype of moves that *look* paradox to a lot of folks, but that most BAPpers (and others) would say *aren't*. My only goal in this debate so far has been to clarify why *not* so we can arrive at a simpler definition of paradox. I am not fighting tooth and nail to get that add, but to honestly understand why it isn't there because I believe that understand this will help us all explain paradox better. (Yes, if Kenny actually read his e-mail and could get over the hump of reading 80 messages posted over the last two days, he might respond with a simple definition that answers this, but so far we're on our own...) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 18:25:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01041 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:25:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01037 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:25:15 GMT Received: from mighty@best.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1034) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA01032 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:25:14 GMT Received: from proxy2.ba.best.com (proxy2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA09939 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:23:53 -0700 Received: from shellx.best.com (shellx.best.com [206.86.0.11]) by proxy2.ba.best.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA29764 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mighty (mighty.vip.best.com [206.86.92.210]) by shellx.best.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA02462 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:21:37 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961017182435.0032f228@best.com> X-Sender: mighty@best.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:24:35 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Mike Niday Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:56 PM 10/16/96 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote > > > Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity (paradox > style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This is > very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body > component on the pick-up.> > It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. Like i've said before: How could anybody *not* see that?? Mighty From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 18:27:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01059 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:27:13 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01055 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:27:12 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1052) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA01050 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:27:12 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA09945 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:25:06 -0700 Message-Id: <199610171825.LAA09945@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-65.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA069196775; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:26:15 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:18:57 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:54 AM 10/17/96 -0700, Steven L. Goldberg wrote: >In other words, you have to *start* and *end* the dexterity with your >dexterity leg on the ground. Clearly with toe-set butterfly, your setting >foot is not your plant foot. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, so let me just compare two moves: toe > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe (Symposium Mirage) toe > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip ("Symposium" Butterfly) The first gets an extra add, the second routinely does not. The only reason I've ever heard in the past is because the second one is "too easy". That may be, and I'm not saying it deserves an extra add...I'm saying the definition you gave: >... A body move whereby the planted foot performs a dexterity in the air >and is then replanted ... doesn't exclude "Symposium" Butterfly. So what is the *real* definition of Symposium, then? I think it has been said at some point in the past that the dexterity has to be a special kind (full-circle, or some such, instead of a leg-over). Is that to be the added clause, then? If so, what about: clip > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip Symposium or not? 8-) This is certainly noticeably harder than planting, but it's questionable if it's "HUGE" enough to warrant an extra add. -- Ernest M. Crvich Durham, NC, USA, Earth Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 18:38:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01114 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:38:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01110 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:38:24 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1107) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA01105 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:38:24 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA10076 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:37:00 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.93] ([17.127.19.93]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA16607 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610171825.LAA09945@Market.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:38:39 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:18 AM -0700 10/17/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: > I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, so let me just >compare two moves: > >toe > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe (Symposium Mirage) >toe > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip ("Symposium" Butterfly) Sorry, Ernest -- you're describing a different move than I thought before, and I made a mistake in my definition. First, for my amended definition: SYMPOSIUM: ... A body move whereby the planted foot performs a dexterity in the air and is then replanted WITHOUT the other leg touching the ground ... As for symposium butterfly -- I thought you were talking about toe-set butterfly which would be "toe > same out dex > op clip". The move you describe is Symposium Butterfly. I don't have a problem with that -- does anyone else? If you don't put your setting foot down during that move, it's symposium. If you do, it isn't. Clearly matches the definition I gave above. (And "no plant while" is the key.) As for "clip > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip"... Symposium butterfly again (from clipper). Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 19:02:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01204 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:02:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01200 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:02:00 GMT Received: from jlepine@ops.tiac.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1197) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA01195 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:02:00 GMT Received: from ops.tiac.net (ops.tiac.net [199.0.65.120]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10397 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:00:23 -0700 Received: from localhost (jlepine@localhost) by ops.tiac.net (8.8.Beta.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA21814 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:01:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:01:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Jef Lepine To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > >Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. I was under the impression that you could set paradox from an outside stall as well. It is in the same position as a clipper almost. Couldn't you set them from Xbody OUtside as well? -Jef Lepine From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 20:03:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01415 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:03:16 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01411 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:03:16 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1408) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01406 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:03:15 GMT Received: from psycfrnd.interaccess.com (psycfrnd.interaccess.com [198.80.0.26]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA11083 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:00:59 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.164] (d164.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.164]) by psycfrnd.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id PAA01094 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:01:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:03:15 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] New Moves Thread Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Sunil wanted to hear about new moves... How about: Gyro Whirling Cross Body Rake - 5 Adds. >From R Clip set, set behind you at mid thigh height, perform whirling motion (on right side of body) with right leg and bail to L Toe Rake. ---I hit this last night, first time I even thought of it--- Twirling Rake (three adds) Example: Left Clipper, set low (below knee), left leg twirls (reverse swirl) from front to back and bail to right toe rake. ---I hit this one all the time--- Spinning Whirling Cross-Body Rake - 4 Adds >From L Clip Set, set mid torso height, spin away to the left, perform a whirling with right leg and left toe pick-up for the x-body rake. ---I hit this once in a while--- Spinning Symposium Whirling Cross-Body Rake - 5 adds See above, add a symposium plant after the spin. ---I have hit this a couple of times.--- Many more too! Feeling creative lately. (Working on Gyro Twirl, Rip-Twirl and much more) Also someone wrote about how Mechanosis is "Pincher to Torque", actually it is Pincher to Osis, it just looks like a torque, but does not get the add for the first dex because it isn't there. I love it anyway. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 20:24:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01490 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:24:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01486 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:24:42 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1483) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01481 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:24:42 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA11300 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:23:10 -0700 Received: from port925-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port925-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.163]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA29566 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:27:00 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:27:00 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199610172027.JAA29566@ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: the_sock@ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: The Sock Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org does Pogo Paradox Symposium Mirage score 2 symposium adds? Or dont you get the pogo add if you splant to switch legs after? ____ _ _ ____ _ / ___|| |__ _ __ ___ __| | ___ _ __ | _ \(_) ___ From Adrian Dick \___ \| '_ \| '__/ _ \/ _` | / _ \| '__| | | | | |/ _ \the_sock@ihug.co.nz ___) | | | | | | __/ (_| | | (_) | | | |_| | | __/ CoSultan of the |____/|_| |_|_| \___|\__,_| \___/|_| |____/|_|\___| AFFC From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 20:51:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01624 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:51:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01620 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:51:48 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1617) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01615 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:51:48 GMT Received: from psycfrnd.interaccess.com (psycfrnd.interaccess.com [198.80.0.26]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA11601 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:50:13 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.164] (d164.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.164]) by psycfrnd.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id PAA02147 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:51:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:53:18 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:52:14 -0500 >To:The Sock >From:enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) >Subject:Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox > >Hi Sock! > >>does Pogo Paradox Symposium Mirage score 2 symposium adds? Or dont you get >>the pogo add if you splant to switch legs after? > >It depends. If for instance: > >L Clip, R leg pogo first, R leg Symposium Mirage, to left toe delay - YES. >(I have hit this many times and it is truly Loco). > >If for instance: >L Clip, R leg pogo first, Plant L leg and symp with Left to R toe delay, - NO > >The symposium element must be maintained until the closing contact. > >See ya! >Scott >Enlightener > >P.S. If any of you are on the MacEvangelist Listserve (Guy Kawasaki), I >have a little ditty that will appear there in the next few days, check it >out... > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 21:13:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01868 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:13:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01864 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:13:42 GMT Received: from kenned57@pilot.msu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1861) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA01859 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:13:42 GMT Received: from pilot12.cl.msu.edu (pilot12.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.22]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA11875 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:12:02 -0700 Received: (kenned57@localhost) by pilot12.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id RAA87489; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:13:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199610172113.RAA87489@pilot12.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] New Moves Thread To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:13:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cameron Dean Kennedy" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org prolly not new, but i have been getting a good response from this one lately ripwalk bail flying clipper right outside set, left dex inside out, right dex(out/in) , end in flyclip with the left. -- _______________________________________________________________________________ Cameron D Kennedy | | Michigan state 1668 E Grand river | sign of a bad funeral director: | biochem apt 155 ph 337-9470 | replaces ashes of loved ones | genetics E Lansing MI 48827 | with folgers crystals | footbag ______________________|_http://pilot.msu.edu/~kenned57/______________________ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 22:20:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02128 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:20:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02124 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:20:45 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2121) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA02119 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:20:45 GMT Received: from psycfrnd.interaccess.com (psycfrnd.interaccess.com [198.80.0.26]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA12547 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:19:00 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.164] (d164.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.164]) by psycfrnd.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA04456; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:20:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:22:05 -0500 To: The Sock , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! >>L Clip, R leg pogo first, R leg Symposium Mirage, to left toe delay - YES. >>(I have hit this many times and it is truly Loco). >>The symposium element must be maintained until the closing contact. Oh, yeah. I call this move "Loco Symposium Mirage" and as far as I know, it is the only move that has two symposium elements in it. Skool hard, Repeat. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 22:41:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02221 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:41:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02217 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:41:00 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2214) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA02212 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:40:54 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA12766 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:39:03 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-13.kode.net [206.42.219.32]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA27704 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:46:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3266B58E.66FA@Kode.net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:39:10 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox References: <961017112802.20c0f729@emuvax.emich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org CASEY@emuvax.emich.edu wrote: > > Hello! > > first of all, symposium is an extremely clear concept and there should > be no argument about it. The reason you get an add for symposium in > a symposium whirl is because the plant leg did the dexterity without > the set leg ever touching the ground from the beginning to the end of the > move. In other words once you initiate the symposium you cant plant > the set leg if you want the adds. for example sym paradox whirl, you set > then plant and then the newly planted leg does the dexterity and lands > without the other leg contacting the ground. So, Pogo blizzard does > not get an extra add because after the first symposium which is the pogo > you plant your set leg. the move is still a cool move and could be > classified as a unique move but no add should be given. this system for > symposium cleans up the arguments and makes it clear cut and doesnt' give > an undeserved add for a pogo move. If you think otherwise Id like to hear > it. > > Paradox guay and paradox atw do not get paradox adds BECAUSE the paradox > was not completed, it stopped half way and bailed. To get the add you would > have to continue to the other toe like a paradox mirage or back to the > clipper for a paradox drifter, for example. > Paradox isn't really that big of a deal. there are really only a few > types of paradox moves that all paradox moves can be classified in. All > you have to do is say which type of paradox move is that. its simple, I > don't see what all the fuss is about. > > Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. > > It does seem clear what the paradox motion it right? Either you take your > set leg and go inside out or outside in around the bag. If you go inside > out and you want the bag to end up on the opposite side of the body that > the bag was set on then the bag must be caught in the clipper. that > is one type. an example is a paradox whirl, or you go outside in and > end up on the same side as you set the bag. that would mean either the > clipper or the leg that didn't do the paradox dexterity. that is another > type. an example is a paradox mirage or a paradox drifter. This also > can explain why a paradox guay and paradox atw don't get a paradox add, > because they don't fall into any of the predefined types of paradox. > > as far as outside in paradox like a reverse paradox mirage there is only > one type and the bag must return back to the orignal set clipper or the > leg that didn't do the dexterity. That takes care of the reverse paradox > theory. That is why blizzard gets a paradox add and dbl leg over doesn't, > it also explains why barfly doesnot get a paradox it. > > I know its long winded but it is simple and clear, there should be no debate. > \ > Josh This is a very clear and difinite ansewer to the delemma at hand. I agree totally. Thanx Josh 4 clearing that up in such concise terms!! Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 23:15:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA02326 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:15:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA02322 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:15:40 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2319) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA02317 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:15:39 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA13203; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:13:48 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id TAA14932; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:15:26 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610172315.TAA14932@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox To: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Cc: CASEY@emuvax.emich.edu, freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Scott Davidson" at Oct 17, 96 12:41:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Scott, Chizzler and Freestlying world > >Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. > > That is a problem statement. I agree with Scott. I have set paradox mirage from outside, and no one could possibly argue that it would not be paradox. Also, I have attempted pixie-drifter, which feels VERY much the same as paradox-drifter. Should that not get a paradox add also (pixie-set)? Also, are you guys saying that Vortex is a 4 add move? That would be one of the cruelest add stealing MacNeuvers I've ever heard of. Yours kindly, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 17 23:38:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA02391 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:38:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA02387 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:38:00 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2384) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA02382 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:38:00 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA13430 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:36:10 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA29408; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:37:48 -0400 From: Sunil Jani Message-Id: <199610172337.TAA29408@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199610172315.TAA14932@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> from "Alessandre S Naro" at Oct 17, 96 07:15:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Alessandre S Naro: > I agree with Scott. I have set paradox mirage from outside, and no one > could possibly argue that it would not be paradox. Also, I have > attempted pixie-drifter, which feels VERY much the same as > paradox-drifter. Should that not get a paradox add also (pixie-set)? > I have also set paradox and symposium paradox mirage from outside. I had previously been positive that it was paradox (validated by SD in DC), but now I am not so sure. I still think it is, but I am starting to the argument against it as well... that is, the set foot does not have to travel out from behind the support leg after the actual set. It sure seems like it is the long way around to me, though. However, paradoxes can most certainly be set from dragons. As for the second point... no paradox add for any pixie moves (from toe, at least... outside set pixie may still be followed by a paradox move... depending on the outcome of the first point). A pixie set from toe is done IN FRONT of you and I can not see a paradox element in it. Try plain old toe drifter, it is harder than a drifter from clipper, but there is most certainly no basis for a paradox add there (though it may feel similar to a paradox drifter). Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 02:40:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA02995 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:39:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA02991 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:39:56 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2988) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA02986 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:39:51 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.95]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA15465 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:37:58 -0700 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA08307 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:39:44 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:39:44 -0400 Message-ID: <961017223944_1610991162@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Weird Move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey freestylers, I was goofing around with double whirl(never pulled it) and found a weird way to do it. Left foot clipper set, blur set, and as its coming down, do an inside out dex. (whirl) with right foot and catch left clipper. Its just a double whirl with a kind of pogo motion for the first dex. Has anybody heard of this move? And whats it called? -Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 02:54:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA03036 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:54:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA03032 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:54:47 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3029) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA03027 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:54:47 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA15675 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:52:54 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-42.kode.net [206.42.219.61]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA11660 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:00:12 -0700 Message-ID: <3266F0C8.336E@Kode.net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:51:52 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Weird Move References: <961017223944_1610991162@emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org MIKE3094@aol.com wrote: > > Hey freestylers, > > I was goofing around with double whirl(never pulled it) and found a > weird way to do it. Left foot clipper set, blur set, and as its coming down, > do an inside out dex. (whirl) with right foot and catch left clipper. Its > just a double whirl with a kind of pogo motion for the first dex. Has > anybody heard of this move? And whats it called? > > -Mike Pogo whirl. 4 adds Rippin has hit it and i'm sure tuan has too. The move is a complete bitch though and if not done correctly can cause injury.(knee or ankle) Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 02:59:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA03066 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:59:44 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA03062 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:59:43 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3059) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA03057 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:59:43 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA15695 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:57:49 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WAB24585; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:01:18 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:23:55 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Message-ID: <19961017.192603.5182.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-18,20-21,23-30 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>toe > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe (Symposium Mirage) >>toe > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip ("Symposium" Butterfly) >Sorry, Ernest -- you're describing a different move than I thought before, >and I made a mistake in my definition. First, for my amended definition: > >SYMPOSIUM: >... A body move whereby the planted foot performs a dexterity in the >air and is then replanted WITHOUT the other leg touching the ground ... Okay. I'll go with that one. >As for symposium butterfly -- I thought you were talking about toe-set >butterfly which would be "toe > same out dex > op clip". The move you >describe is Symposium Butterfly. I don't have a problem with that -- >does anyone else? If you don't put your setting foot down during that >move,it's symposium. Yeah, I do. It *is* a legover-type motion, and not a full circle. And while I don't wanna take the dex out of a butterfly, pogo, legover, or mirage from clipper, I fell that A symposium dexterity should at least be a circle. >As for "clip > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip"... >Symposium butterfly again (from clipper). Same side, at that, and no argument there. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 03:01:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA03098 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:01:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA03091 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:01:11 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3088) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA03086 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:01:11 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA15703 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:59:17 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VAB20142; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:48:44 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:40:43 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Message-ID: <19961017.204047.5182.8.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610172315.TAA14932@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-9,11-17,19-22,24,26-28,30-32 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Hi, Freestlying world Hi, right back atcha. I just wanted to say, before getting to the meat of this, that I got home from 3 hours of shred to find 45 unread messages pertaining to freestyle and that is very very cool. >> >Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. >> >> That is a problem statement. > > Also, I have attempted pixie-drifter, which feels VERY much the same as >paradox-drifter. Should that not get a paradox add also (pixie-set)? >Also, are you guys saying that Vortex is a 4 add move? That would be >one of the cruelest add stealing MacNeuvers I've ever heard of. >Yours kindly, >Alex > Well, my doubly-dextrous friend, if you are indeed referring to the pixiedrifter we recently discussed wherein the movement follows: toe>same in dex>op in dex> same clip or: smear bail clipper then the paradox add you seek is non existant, and you must settle for the dexterity. And, also I hate to be the one to break your heart again, but if you will recall Daryl mentioned that spins and paradoxes were mutually exclusive, so Vortex 4 add ( spin, dexterity, crossbody, delay) And if you're really looking for an add stealer, try reverse mirage from clipper. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 04:18:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA03513 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:18:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA03509 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:18:22 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3506) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA03504 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:18:22 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA16481 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:16:28 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WAA00258; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:18:17 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:11:03 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Message-ID: <19961017.201104.5182.3.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610172027.JAA29566@ihug.co.nz> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-5,7-11,14-17 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:27:00 +1300 (NZDT) The Sock writes: >does Pogo Paradox Symposium Mirage score 2 symposium adds? Or dont >you get the pogo add if you splant to switch legs after? > Sorry. You wouldn't get the pogo add for switching afterwards, it would be Miraging pdx sym mirage (backside symposium blur) And as Scotty says: >>The symposium element must be maintained until the closing contact.<< I'm afraid his description of a double symposium mirage wouldn't be paradox, however. But if you were to pogo-voodoo, you would get a symposium add twice - once for the pogo & once for the symposium pickup. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 06:32:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA03998 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:32:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA03994 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:32:34 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3991) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA03989 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:32:34 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17815 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:30:43 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.31] ([17.127.18.31]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA22402 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3266F0C8.336E@Kode.net> References: <961017223944_1610991162@emout04.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:33:02 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Weird Move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:51 PM -0700 10/17/96, Paul Munger wrote: >MIKE3094@aol.com wrote: >> I was goofing around with double whirl(never pulled it) and found a >> weird way to do it. Left foot clipper set, blur set, and as its coming >>down, >> do an inside out dex. (whirl) with right foot and catch left clipper. Its >> just a double whirl with a kind of pogo motion for the first dex. Has >> anybody heard of this move? And whats it called? > >Pogo whirl. 4 adds > Possibly, Paul, but more likely he's planting his set foot first. Mike, can you clarify? If you're planting your set foot, it seems like a blurry (non-paradox) same-side whirl. Steve P.S. Paul you failed to answer any of the points of my previous message to you. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 06:34:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA04015 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:34:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA04011 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:34:02 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4008) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA04006 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:34:01 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17824 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:32:10 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-33.kode.net [206.42.219.52]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA13935 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:40:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3267244C.2D40@Kode.net> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:31:40 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] comments on voodoo References: <199610172027.JAA29566@ihug.co.nz> <19961017.201104.5182.3.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:27:00 +1300 (NZDT) The Sock > writes: > >does Pogo Paradox Symposium Mirage score 2 symposium adds? Or dont > >you get the pogo add if you splant to switch legs after? > > > Sorry. You wouldn't get the pogo add for switching afterwards, it would > be > Miraging pdx sym mirage (backside symposium blur) And as Scotty says: > > >>The symposium element must be maintained until the closing contact.<< > > I'm afraid his description of a double symposium mirage wouldn't be > paradox, however. But if you were to pogo-voodoo, you would get a > symposium add twice - > once for the pogo & once for the symposium pickup. > > JP Helloo A comment on voodoo. I have spoken to rippin and ken. I tend to agree with there determination that you will only get 1 add for a pogo move. Why u say? Well The true pogo would have to be a true dex. But i isn't. The way tuan does this move is a very good way the show it. His set is in reality a defraction. only worth 1 add. Some of u my say that it is symposium but in reality it's not or it is VERY questionable. Similar to calling a "the" the. His foot barely moves off the ground IF it even does, in addition the bag is leaving the surface of his foot after his leg is over it. Since when do we count the set as an add? You don't. The dex needs to be done after the bag is released not be4. This is an UGLY topic because what tuan is doing is WAY HEIN but watch the moves. If he gets the add, then shooting dble leg over from right side to left toe would be 4 adds.(symposium mirage, paradox mirage, delay) Excuse me but thats CHEEZY. Also shooting mirage would be worth 5 adds.(symposium mirage,legover,mirage,delay) Again CHEEZY. in the first one I would consider the first dex worth 2 adds ONLY if the dex was a true symposium not a questionable one. The second would be the same. It all boils down to the pogo dex. I am speaking for myself,rick and ken. The pogo set is just another way to do a mirage,period. If you want the adds then do the trick the true symposium way. You cannot get a symposium add from a defracting set.(ie see above.) I'm sure that this stirs alot of trouble but there are alot of the BAP the feel this way. Respectfully submitted Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 06:45:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA04052 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:45:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA04048 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:45:13 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4045) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA04043 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:45:13 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17922 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:43:20 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.31] ([17.127.18.31]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA22510 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3267244C.2D40@Kode.net> References: <199610172027.JAA29566@ihug.co.nz> <19961017.201104.5182.3.dervish@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:45:33 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:31 PM -0700 10/17/96, Paul Munger wrote: >A comment on voodoo. > >I have spoken to rippin and ken. I tend to agree with there determination >that you will only get 1 add for a pogo move. I'm with you on this one, Paul. But of course this will start another thread (like we don't already have enough going -- man, us freestylers got a lot to say!). The argument *for* two adds is that *some* people really do a symposium mirage before a move; but not that many. (The Enlightener calls that version "loco", I think.) And admittedly, most of Tuan's moves look more like a diffraction set than a symposium mirage (though I have to mention that diffraction is actually different -- the bag is brought through by the same leg it goes around, and it's worth two adds). But an argument against two adds is the case of Pogo-Paradox-Mirage versus Blur. When done the way most people do them (not truly "loco" as Scott calls them), pogo-paradox-mirage looks much easier. Not that I hit pogo, but still... The failure to plant in this case opens a huge window. Anyone care to comment? (Point of clarification: Pogo-Paradox-Mirage and Blur are almost identical except that in the former you don't plant your setting foot until the final dexterity.) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 07:08:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA04093 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:08:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA04089 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:08:13 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4086) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA04084 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:08:13 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA18173 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:06:22 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id DAA25270; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:08:07 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610180708.DAA25270@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on voodoo To: HuMungis@kode.net (Paul Munger) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <3267244C.2D40@Kode.net> from "Paul Munger" at Oct 18, 96 02:31:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > I have spoken to rippin and ken. I tend to agree with there determination that you > will only get 1 add for a pogo move. > > Why u say? I could not agree more. Several people pull "pogo" here at penn, including me, and I have grown to think that it only deserves 1 add. I think we should define pogo as what people today do it as, and come up with another name for a truly symposium mirage: Set, wait for the bag to actually leave your foot on the outside of the dex leg, and then jump. LAtes, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 08:09:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04409 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:09:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04405 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:09:19 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4402) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA04400 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:09:19 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18772 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:07:28 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DAB20443; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:25:20 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:58:42 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Message-ID: <19961018.021923.13110.1.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610171513.LAA19154@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,10-13 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >where are you shults? > >still upholding the covenant under the rainbow? >no interference with Thine creation? >l8r- vince > okay. So if I: clip > same in dex > spin > op toe ridiculous as it sounds, a paradox mirage with a spin smack dab in the middle; does paradox subsume or become subsumed by the spin? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 08:13:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04437 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:13:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04433 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:13:48 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4430) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA04428 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:13:48 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18897 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:11:56 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EAA25048; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:05:02 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 03:36:43 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle]Final comments on voodoo Message-ID: <19961018.033817.13838.0.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610172027.JAA29566@ihug.co.nz> <19961017.201104.5182.3.dervish@juno.com> <3267244C.2D40@kode.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-29,31-34,36-47,49 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I originally said: >> Miraging pdx sym mirage (backside symposium blur) And as Scotty says: >>The symposium element must be maintained until the closing contact.<< >> If you were to pogo-voodoo, you would get a >> symposium add twice - >> once for the pogo & once for the symposium pickup. >> And then Paul said: >I have spoken to rippin and ken. I tend to agree with their >determination that you will only get 1 add for a pogo move. >I'm sure that this stirs alot of trouble but there are alot of the BAP >that feel this way. >Respectfully submitted >Hu-Mungis > Steve said: When done the way most people do them (not truly "loco" as Scott calls them), pogo-paradox-mirage looks much easier. Not that I hit pogo, but still... The failure to plant in this case opens a huge window. Anyone care to comment? Alex said: I could not agree more. Several people pull "pogo" here at penn, including me, and I have grown to think that it only deserves 1 add. I think we should define pogo as what people today do it as, and come up with another name for a truly symposium mirage: Set, wait for the bag to actually leave your foot on the outside of the dex leg, and then jump. And now I retort, finally to close the book on all this pogo nonsense so that we can get back to paradox: Fine. Okay. Sure. Great. Who am I to argue with Mr's Shultz and Reese? BUT... if I *were* to really symposium set, as a symposium mirage really looks- and I had the speed and power and to pull voodoo afterward- Not to mention the ability to defy gravity... I would get a symposium add twice... once for the symposium set & once for the symposium pickup. Aha! 3:30 am. b-d - b-d - b-d - b-d -b- that's all, folks! JP: NYC ps.geez, ya go out to freestyle for an afternoon and willya LOOK at the size of my inbox! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 13:19:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04936 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:18:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04932 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:18:02 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4929) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04927 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:18:01 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA21766 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:16:16 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.197] (d197.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.197]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA08805; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:17:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:19:41 -0500 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro), freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Alex! >I could not agree more. Several people pull "pogo" here at penn, >including me, and I have grown to think that it only deserves 1 add. I >think we should define pogo as what people today do it as, and come up >with another name for a truly symposium mirage: > >Set, wait for the bag to actually leave your foot on the outside of the >dex leg, and then jump. The name is "Symposium". Pogo is a quick way of saying "Symposium Mirage at the beginning" and you are right, it often doesn't deserve the add. But I will say that if you maintain the "symposiumness" of the move to the end then it by all means should get the symposium add. It should be done by leaving the ground, however. Not pulling through defractions. See ya. Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 13:19:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04925 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:17:59 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04921 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:17:58 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4918) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04916 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:17:58 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA21762 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:16:12 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.197] (d197.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.197]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA08799; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:17:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:19:35 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Welcome aboard Steve! >But an argument against two adds is the case of Pogo-Paradox-Mirage versus >Blur. >When done the way most people do them (not truly "loco" as Scott calls >them), pogo-paradox-mirage looks much easier. Not that I hit pogo, but >still... The failure to plant in this case opens a huge window. Anyone >care to comment? > >(Point of clarification: Pogo-Paradox-Mirage and Blur are almost identical >except that in the former you don't plant your setting foot until the final >dexterity.) That last step down at the end with your paradox dexterity leg is what loses you the add from the "pogo" and makes it non-loco. They are both 4 adds. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 13:19:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04947 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:18:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04943 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:18:20 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4940) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04938 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:18:20 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA21770 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:16:34 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.197] (d197.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.197]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA08792; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:17:43 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:19:29 -0500 To: Paul Munger , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >It all boils down to the pogo dex. > >I am speaking for myself,rick and ken. The pogo set is just another way >to do a >mirage,period. If you want the adds then do the trick the true symposium >way. You >cannot get a symposium add from a defracting set.(ie see above.) I'm on that bandwagon, too. Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 13:27:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04989 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:26:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04983 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:26:10 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4975) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04973 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:26:09 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA21871 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:24:23 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.197] (d197.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.197]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA08900 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:25:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:27:40 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] New Freestyle Event Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Does anyone want to hear about a new event that is being proposed for freestylers? One that focuses on moves and strings, not on dance and fluff? I have previously sent it to a select group of stylers, and they all liked it (everyone has some revisons, and that is great! :-). If enough are interested, I will post the message to this list. It needs discussion and some refining, so this forum would be a great place to hash it out. Aw, heck, I'll dump it on you all sometime later today. Also, I will look up what last years Paradox discussions yielded. (Derrick, Vince, Steve and I went at it last year on Paradox and we had some pretty solid definitions). I'll look for them too. See ya! Enlightener. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 13:27:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04991 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:26:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA04982 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:26:09 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4977) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04972 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:26:09 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA21872 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:24:23 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.197] (d197.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.197]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA08903 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:25:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:27:44 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] New Moves Thread Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! I have another one that I've been working on: Blurry Reverse Blender (6 adds) (Dex, Body, Dex, Body, XBody, Delay) ex: Left Clipper set, ripwalk style right leg over, left leg reverse blender to left clipper. I hit this about 1 in 3 times. Fun stuff. Makes me want to break out a footbag and shred right now. Gotta go! SHRED ON! FREESTYLE LIST RULZ! Enlightener. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 15:53:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA05448 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA05438 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:39 GMT Received: from holyx@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5435) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA05433; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:39 GMT Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA23336; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:51:56 -0700 Received: from (holyx@por-or10-15.ix.netcom.com [204.31.113.143]) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA22515; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:53:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:53:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199610181553.IAA22515@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: holyx@ix.netcom.com (Paul D Vorvick) Subject: [freestyle] Crap of the Net Crop To: freestyle@footbag.org To: footbag@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Scott Davidson wrote: >Ya, but have you seen me play net? I may very well have the record >for the least number of points scored at worlds. Hi Scott, et al: Obviously, Scott, you are subtly throwing down the guantlet and laying claim to the title of Worst Net Player in History - a title which I not only own, but will GLADLY DEFEND at the '97 Worlds. C'mon you twirling yay-hoo, LET'S JUST SEE who can endure the most pain and embarrassment! Kick On You, Paul V. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 16:58:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA05619 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:58:11 GMT From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610181651.MAA03311@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] representation To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:51:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Footbaggers, Last night at the PHish concert at Penn State a few of us had tickets on the floor of the arena. There was this big, empty area of concrete screaming to be shredded on so we did the honors. In front of around 16,000 people we styled for about 25 minutes until the show started. Some of the better juggles were recieving hoots and applause from the mass of slack-jawed gawkers. It was ridiculously high-key but awesome. Freestyle rulz, Ethan New move (for me)- toe set diving mirage. (set from right toe, bag travels up on left side of head, down past right side, mirage with right foot, catch left.) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 16:59:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA05636 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:59:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA05632 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:59:39 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5629) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05627 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:59:39 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA23977 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:57:56 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MAA08555; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:57:22 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:41:21 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Crap of the Net Crop Message-ID: <19961018.125610.14734.0.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610181553.IAA22515@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-18 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Scott said: >>Ya, but have you seen me play net? I may very well have the record >>for the least number of points scored at worlds. and then Paul said: >Obviously, Scott, you are subtly throwing down the guantlet and laying >claim to the title of Worst Net Player in History - a title which I >not only own, but will GLADLY DEFEND at the '97 Worlds. >C'mon you twirling yay-hoo, LET'S JUST SEE who can endure the most >pain and embarrassment! So I say: oh, boys! are we speaking in terms of 'open' net? or is it okay to go for this title as an intermediate? either way... ALL me. kick on you all, JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 17:17:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA05711 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:17:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA05707 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:17:34 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5704) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA05702 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:17:33 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA24203 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:15:36 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.31] ([17.127.18.31]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA25490 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:16:39 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on pogo [was: comments on voodoo] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:19 AM -0700 10/18/96, Scott Davidson wrote: >The name is "Symposium". Pogo is a quick way of saying "Symposium Mirage >at the beginning" and you are right, it often doesn't deserve the add. But >I will say that if you maintain the "symposiumness" of the move to the end >then it by all means should get the symposium add. It should be done by >leaving the ground, however. Not pulling through defractions. Oh, no, I guess we're not in agreement after all, Scott. But sheesh -- do we *have* to get into Pogo at the same time as we talk about paradox? I'd really like to get answers to my paradox questions that make sense; i.e., nobody in BAP has really commented one way or the other on my S and alpha dexterity ideas. Are they just full of bunk? If you reply to this part of this message, change the subject to "The Great Paradox Debate". Okay, so on to Pogo. Scott, you're talking at a right angle to the issues me, Alex, and others are talking at with respect to Pogo. "Maintaining the symposiumness...to the end" implies that the move can still have a symposium component even if you end it early. But your comments don't bear on whether or not there *is* a symposium at all in most people's Pogos. So let's put off the issues of "maintaining the symposiumness" till later; what about *having* any symposiumness at all! There's no symposium at all in most people's pogo; that's what we're talking about clarifying. Most people just shoot the set under their leg, with a harder set (granted) but a much easier dexterity following (because the window is hugely bigger -- i.e., the plant foot doesn't get back in the way). And I don't really know what you mean by "maintaining the symposiumness" after all. Are you saying that "symposium paradox mirage" isn't in fact symposium? Please clarify. And clarify if you agree with my definition of "symposium": SYMPOSIUM: ... A body move whereby the planted foot performs a dexterity in the air and is then replanted WITHOUT the other leg touching the ground ... Steve Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 18:59:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA06104 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:59:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA06100 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:59:21 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6097) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA06095 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:59:20 GMT Received: from griffith.Colorado.EDU (griffith.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.76]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA25341 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:57:30 -0700 Received: from griffith (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by griffith.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id MAA11616; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:22:52 -0600 Message-ID: <3267CAFB.446B9B3D@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:22:51 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jef Lepine CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jef Lepine wrote: > > > >Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. > > I was under the impression that you could set paradox from an outside > stall as well. It is in the same position as a clipper almost. Couldn't > you set them from Xbody OUtside as well? > > -Jef Lepine SURE! But good luck trying to set striaght up from there! It ain't easy!! Maybe it should be worth an extra add. ;-) Daryl From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 19:47:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA06374 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:47:05 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA06370 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:47:05 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6367) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA06365 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:47:05 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25925 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:45:21 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA18598 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:48:20 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBBD03.B08A5D30@www.lanit.com>; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:50:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] (GASP!) Music Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:50:18 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Live jazz. That's what I like to kick to the best. Unfortunately, I don't get that much anymore. It would be interesting to find out what the top 3 albums/CD's people liked to freestyle to. I think my most-used CD is the Doobie Brothers "Takin' it to the Streets." I've probably used all but 2 or 3 tracks off that CD in competition. 2nd would have to be Spin Doctors Jimmy Olson's Blues CD. There are lots of 3rds, but Ted Nugent comes to mind. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 20:47:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA06686 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:47:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA06682 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:47:38 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6679) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA06677 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:47:38 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA26601 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:45:48 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-31.kode.net [206.42.219.50]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA25022 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:53:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3267EC56.7C2E@Kode.net> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:45:10 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on pogo [was: comments on voodoo] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > > At 6:19 AM -0700 10/18/96, Scott Davidson wrote: > >The name is "Symposium". Pogo is a quick way of saying "Symposium Mirage > >at the beginning" and you are right, it often doesn't deserve the add. But > >I will say that if you maintain the "symposiumness" of the move to the end > >then it by all means should get the symposium add. It should be done by > >leaving the ground, however. Not pulling through defractions. > > Oh, no, I guess we're not in agreement after all, Scott. But sheesh -- do > we *have* to get into Pogo at the same time as we talk about paradox? I'd > really like to get answers to my paradox questions that make sense; i.e., > nobody in BAP has really commented one way or the other on my S and alpha > dexterity ideas. Are they just full of bunk? If you reply to this part of > this message, change the subject to "The Great Paradox Debate". > > Okay, so on to Pogo. > > Scott, you're talking at a right angle to the issues me, Alex, and others > are talking at with respect to Pogo. > > "Maintaining the symposiumness...to the end" implies that the move can > still have a symposium component even if you end it early. But your > comments don't bear on whether or not there *is* a symposium at all in most > people's Pogos. > > So let's put off the issues of "maintaining the symposiumness" till later; > what about *having* any symposiumness at all! There's no symposium at all > in most people's pogo; that's what we're talking about clarifying. Most > people just shoot the set under their leg, with a harder set (granted) but > a much easier dexterity following (because the window is hugely bigger -- > i.e., the plant foot doesn't get back in the way). > > And I don't really know what you mean by "maintaining the symposiumness" > after all. Are you saying that "symposium paradox mirage" isn't in fact > symposium? Please clarify. And clarify if you agree with my definition of > "symposium": > > SYMPOSIUM: > ... A body move whereby the planted foot performs a dexterity in the air > and is then replanted WITHOUT the other leg touching the ground ... > > Steve > > Steve I agree with you on this issue steve. Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 22:34:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07198 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:34:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07194 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:34:30 GMT Received: from yaroslav@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7191) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA07189 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:34:30 GMT Received: from scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA27889; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:32:36 -0700 Received: (from yaroslav@localhost) by scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02424; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:34:21 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:34:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Yaroslav Faybishenko To: Scott Davidson cc: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Scott Davidson wrote: > Hi Freestylers! > > Bens system is okay, but don't you think it would be a little tough on > newbies? Especially those who want to know more about freestyle? No no no... As any CS major would tell you, it is much easier to write and understand regular expressions than a natural language. ..and of course, if you have a regular language, such as the language describing all possible moves, then we can build a non-deterministic finite automata for every expression in such a language. ..hence, regular expressions. I'd vote to keep it and use it. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 22:51:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07242 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:51:54 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07238 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:51:54 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7235) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA07233 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:51:54 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA28046 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:49:59 -0700 Received: (from marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id PAA25647; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:51:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne Reply-To: Verhoef Anne Subject: [freestyle] insane move To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey freestylers, I just thought of a move for pros to work on and if you ever hit this, your extremly sick!! Here it is: Blurry barraging(backside) blender. say left clipper stall, right inside out dex., double inside out dex with left into a right blender (same side as you started on). Who knows maybe kenny or peter will hit this in a week. Later, Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 22:53:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07269 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:53:32 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07260 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:53:30 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7254) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA07251 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:53:30 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA28162 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:51:32 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.197] (d184.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.184]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA26216; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:53:22 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:55:08 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Steve and Freestylers! >nobody in BAP has really commented one way or the other on my S and alpha >dexterity ideas. Are they just full of bunk? Bunk, no. That is a good way of describing the difference between the dexterity styles, there are probably more distinct movements we could name. I stop short of including them in paradox definitions for now though. I need to collect my thoughts. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 22:53:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07270 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:53:32 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA07264 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:53:31 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7257) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA07252 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:53:30 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA28161 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:51:31 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.197] (d184.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.184]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA26219 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:53:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:55:12 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] Five Point Shred Contest Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Here is a new Idea... please read it and give me a critique! FIVE POINT SHRED EVENT Objective: To obtain the most points. Highest score wins. Why do we need a new event? Freestyle players are being pulled in two directions. On one hand, the "Worlds Style" judging system asks players to mix elements of dance, choreography, variety and execution, while simultaneously penalizing them for drops (and IFAB is considering stronger drop penalties, so heavy that one drop would predetermine that that player could not win the event). On the other hand, the shredders and BAP are pushing the edge of difficulty and forcing the level of play towards such a difficult level that inserting these moves into strings in the "Worlds Style" system is counterproductive. When the top level players get together, they NEVER practice strings that would satisfy the "Worlds Style" scoring, they show off new combos and strings. Big tricks, back to back. Many of the best freestylers in the world choose not to compete because of the current judging system. The Comprimise: The Five Point Shred event allows players a structured opportunity to compete, while not removing them from their element. The event focuses on difficulty, execution and variety, scoring players in the same style as Olympic Diving. Rewarding players for difficulty and focusing on the style of play that the best players enjoy. Description: * Each player will perform 3 different strings of 5 contacts each. * Tricks are submitted in advance, and must be performed in order. * If a drop occurs during a string, it is the end of that attempt. * Players must be kicking the footbag prior to the start of their string attempt. * The first add contact must be the the first trick in the players selected string. * To cleanly end a string, a player must show control immediately following the fifth add contact by kicking the footbag at least twice. * Judges will score everything up until the drop. * The player can choose to make another attempt, but the second attempt becomes the final score. Player CANNOT choose the better score if a drop also shortens the second attempt. * Adjusted Adds (i.e. Barfly = 4.3) are determined for each trick. * A canonical list will be created of tricks and their Adjusted Add Value. This will be attained through discussion of top players then published on paper and on the internet. * An add/contact ratio is calculated by dividing the total adds by the number of tricks (5). Judging (similar to diving system) * Six judges. * Each trick is allowed 1 point. 5 points possible from each judge. * A drop is the end of the string. Judges will score up until the drop. * Judges must come up with their own scores without discussion. * Criteria for judging (iron this out through discussion, here are examples suggested so far): * Mandatory deductions: - Poor set, -.1 - Slop (upper body contact), -.5 - Motions that do not meet their catagorical criteria. Non-circling dexterities, "the's", -.25 Delay foul, kick more than delay, -.25 - General control, range -.1 to -.3 - Balance, range -.1 to -.3 - ????? * ??? Possible Additional value for doing 4 add moves on both sides.? Like .2 mandatory additional value for equal use? Do we want to promote equal use? This would be a good way. * Drop the high and low scores. Example string for judging: L Butterfly - R Ripwalk - L Barfly - R Paradox Whirl - L Paradox Whirl Add computation: 3 + 4 + 4.3 + 4.3 + 4.3 = 19.9 Add/Contact Ratio: 19.9 / 5 = 3.98 For example's sake, lets say the above string was performed flawlessly, except for 1 poor set from the Barfly: Judge 1 = 4.9 (correct score) Judge 2 = 5.0 (this judge missed the poor set deduction) Judge 3 = 4.7 (bad score for reasons unknown) Judge 4 = 4.9 Judge 5 = 5.0 Judge 6 = 4.9 Throw away the high (5.0) and the low (4.7) and here is the result: 4.9 + 4.9 + 5.0 + 4.9 = 19.7 Soften the score by multiplying it by .75 (I would like to know the reasoning behind this in diving, I believe it is to reduce the point spreads by 25% so that players leads don't look insurmountable): 19.7 * .75 = 14.775 Round that up to the hundredth: 14.78 Multiply that by the add/contact ratio: 14.78 x 3.98 = 58.8244 Round that up to the hundredth: 58.82 Raw score of 58.82 for that string. Players and judges do three strings per round, the scores are entered into a computer program developed in Filemaker Pro v.1.2 for Mac by Enlightener. Computer will do all calculations. After three strings, the per-round score is added up, lets say this player scored the same on each string in this round (very unlikely), 58.82 x 3 = 176.46, that would be a very good score. Two rounds of this (one per day in a 2 day tourney) would be plenty for a good event. The second round, players cannot use any of the same strings from first round. We need to discuss if we will be doing cumulative score for second round, that could make it interesting! _________=====-=---0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0- Okay, what do you think? This is a text file on my mac, so I can edit it. I did not write this in my email program so there might be some funny characters in there. I envision this as the raging shred event of the future, and Kenny likes it, so what do you think? It is totally up for discussion, everything is. So give me feedback, be harsh if you need be. See ya@ Scott Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 18 23:28:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA07340 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:27:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA07336 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:27:57 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7333) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA07331 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:27:57 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA28519 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:25:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199610182325.QAA28519@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-63.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA272781272; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:27:52 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:20:34 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] insane move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 03:51 PM 10/18/96 -0700, Verhoef Anne wrote: >Here it is: Blurry barraging(backside) blender. Doesn't even sound remotely possible to a mortal like me. 8-) This would be a 4-dex move, which makes me wonder if anyone has hit *any* 4-dex moves yet? I remember someone (or some *thing*) was going after Barraging Barfly, and I'd imagine that Blurriest Swirl *might* be possible...but has anyone finally hit one? Didn't someone recently mention a quad-ATW recently...is that really true? -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich Durham, NC, USA Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 19 00:28:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA07543 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:28:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA07539 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:28:02 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7536) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA07534 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:28:02 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA29123 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:26:02 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TAA18321; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:58:50 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:52:01 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Message-ID: <19961018.185205.4886.3.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-13 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org writes: >As any CS major would tell you, it is much easier to write >and understand regular expressions than a natural language. > we can build a non-deterministic finite automata >for every expression in such a language. ..hence, regular >expressions. uh... right. .. What? sorry, man. I majored in the oxidation of solids and origami in college. (Burning stuff and paper airplanes.) Would you mind translating that into English - or at least gibberish? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 19 00:45:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA07640 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:45:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA07636 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:45:03 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7633) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA07631 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:45:02 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA29349 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:42:58 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.52] ([17.127.18.52]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05096 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:43:51 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:45:18 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:34 PM -0700 10/18/96, Yaroslav Faybishenko wrote: >As any CS major would tell you, it is much easier to write >and understand regular expressions than a natural language. To which Josh P. wrote: | What? sorry, man. I majored in the oxidation of solids and | origami in college. (Burning stuff and paper airplanes.) | Would you mind translating that into English - or at least gibberish? So, yeah, Yaroslav's kinda being funny (I hope). Like there are any computer scientists among freestylers... Far fetched. Makes no sense to me either. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 19 01:23:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA07813 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:23:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA07809 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:23:09 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7806) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA07804 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:23:08 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA29753 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:21:08 -0700 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA06056; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:23:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:23:09 -0400 Message-ID: <961018212308_336921671@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: elklein@sas.upenn.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] representation Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Footbaggers, Last night at the PHish concert at Penn State a few of us >had tickets on the floor of the arena. There was this big, empty area of >concrete screaming to be shredded on so we did the honors. In front of >around 16,000 people we styled for about 25 minutes until the show >started. Some of the better juggles were recieving hoots and applause >from the mass of slack-jawed gawkers. It was ridiculously high-key but >awesome. One of the biggest points of freestyle( I think) is showing off for people. I also think that its good to play in public places because there is pressure on you to show off when people stop and watch. I bet this really helps to get ready for tournaments. Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 19 01:29:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA07856 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:29:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA07852 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:29:10 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7849) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA07847 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:29:10 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA29782 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:27:08 -0700 Received: by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA03987 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:29:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:29:14 -0400 Message-ID: <961018212913_336925023@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re:[Freestyle]Weird Move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Possibly, Paul, but more likely he's planting his set foot first. Mike, >can you clarify? If you're planting your set foot, it seems like a blurry >(non-paradox) same-side whirl. What Steve says sounds right, a blurry same-side whirl. Sorry if I didnt clarify. Oh yeah and today at skool Ryan M. hit 17 symposium mirages. They werent cros body rakes because i watched carefully and he barely turned at all. Now how about this move: left foot clipper set, inside out dex with right foot, then plant right foot, and then do an outside in dex with right foot ending in right toe stall. Its like one of those tap things but from a clipper set. Whats this move called? I know its a three add but it looks so dope in shreds. Thanks for your reply. Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 19 01:43:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA07920 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:43:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA07916 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:43:40 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7913) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA07911 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:43:40 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA29988 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:41:37 -0700 Received: (from marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA08040; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:55:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox To: Genz Daryl S cc: Jef Lepine , freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <3267CAFB.446B9B3D@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Genz Daryl S wrote: > Jef Lepine wrote: > > > > > >Of course paradox needs to be set off a clipper. What about if you set it from a right toe stall, inside-out dexterity with left leg do another inside out dexterity with the right leg leg and catch with a left toe stall (a blur from a toe set), wouldn't that be paradox too? (change of direction) > > I was under the impression that you could set paradox from an outside > > stall as well. It is in the same position as a clipper almost. Couldn't > > you set them from Xbody OUtside as well? > > I was wondering about setting from an outside stall as well. Because I like doing symposium mirages off outsides. If it is paradox, 4 adds (paradox symposium mirage) but if it isn't, 3adds (symp. off outside) Anyone care to comment? Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 01:54:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA10047 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:54:32 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA10043 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:54:31 GMT Received: from mike_reis@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10040) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA10038 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:54:31 GMT Received: from compassion.hotmail.com (compassion.hotmail.com [206.86.127.245]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA11911 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:52:48 -0700 Received: from compassion.hotmail.com by compassion.hotmail.com id <137561(15)>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:54:26 -0700 Received: from 206.86.127.204 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:54:25 PDT From: "Michael Reis" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] What is a... Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <96Oct19.185426pdt.137561(15)@compassion.hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:54:25 -0700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi. I'm new to this list but not to new to hacky sack (footbag, footsack, hacky bag, kick sack or anything else you want to call it.). I've been kicking for about a year now, and I just need a little help understanding your lingo. What is a (There is a list): clipper set blur set dex Some defining and clearing would greatly help me as well as all mankind. THX. _____ ____ __ ____ ___ ______ _________________ / \/ \ | | | |/ / | ___| __ / ______ _______\ | | | | | | / | |___ \/ \/ /______| |_______\\__________ | | | | | | / | ___| | ____ | ____ \ | /\ /\ | | | | | \ | |___ /\_____((__))__|____________((__))__| |_/ \_/ \_| |__| |____|\_\ |______| ============================================================================ "At the sunrise I shall take you to the lord|"The more I learn what is a Denethor again. No, when the summons comes,| man, the more I want to be an not at sunrise. The Darkness has begun. | animal."-Mowgli There will be no dawn."-Gandalf The White | ============================================================================ Michael Reis michael-r@usa.net mike_reis@hotmail.com Web Sites --------------------------------- Search-To-Find(Web-Edition) http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/ssw/search.htm --------------------------------- The Pizza Man Zone http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4571/ --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 02:18:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10115 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:18:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10111 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:18:00 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10108) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA10106 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:17:59 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA12109 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:16:13 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.52] ([17.127.18.71]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA64128; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:16:55 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <96Oct19.185426pdt.137561(15)@compassion.hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:18:30 -0700 To: "Michael Reis" From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] What is a... Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:54 PM -0700 10/19/96, Michael Reis wrote: >Hi. I'm new to this list but not to new to hacky sack (footbag, footsack, >hacky >bag, kick sack or anything else you want to call it.). I've been kicking for >about a year now, and I just need a little help understanding your lingo. >What >is a (There is a list): > clipper set > blur set > dex >Some defining and clearing would greatly help me as well as all mankind. That's what FAQ is for! And guess what, we have one! The FAQ is at http://www.footbag.org/faq/ There's a "moves list" in it (at http://www.footbag.org/faq/moves.txt) although it's pitifully out of date; it does have all the definitions you seek above. Here is the first part of it: +---------------------------------------+ | Footbag Moves | |---------------------------------------| | Collected by Adrian Dick | | Edited by Damian Coventry | | and Steve Goldberg | | | | http://www.footbag.org/faq/moves.txt | +---------------------------------------+ The moves are organized in increasing order of their "add" value based on the IFAB difficulty ratings for tricks. Each "add" represents an additional level of difficulty for a move. Adds come from any of the following five categories, listed in parentheses for each move: delay - stalling or delaying the footbag using a foot or leg dexterity - circling or crossing the footbag with a leg cross-body - using a leg on the opposite site of the body body - spinning, jumping, twisting the body unusual surface - using any surface on the body besides the toes, insteps, outsteps, and knees Note that the add count for a move counts the final delay of the move (if any) but not the delay (if any) involved in the set for the move. This convention ensures that sequences of linked moves are properly counted. In the names for the moves below, the terms "stall" and "delay" are synonymous. In other words, some people will say "toe delay" instead of "toe stall". +---------------+ | One-Add Moves | +---------------+ TOE STALL 1 add (delay) Delay the footbag on the top of the toes of the foot. To execute a right toe stall, set from a left inside kick, plant your left leg, pull your right knee up towards your face (keeping your shoulders slightly forward and your head down), keep your right foot and leg pointing straight in front of you, and then hop up and down very quickly on your left leg as you lower your right leg to gently trap the bag on the top front of your shoe, with your foot angled up in front, and your right toes pointing upward. Mastering this delay is key; try to do it with both the left and right feet from the beginning. The hop on your support leg helps cushion the delay as well as keep your balance. Try to hop on all delays -- it will eventually become completely natural and is a key to good form. INSIDE STALL 1 add (delay) Delay the footbag on the inside surface of the foot. OUTSIDE STALL 1 add (delay) Delay the footbag on the outside surface of the foot. KNEE STALL 1 add (delay) Delay the footbag on the thigh just above the knee. SPINNING KICK 1 add (body) Spin around (in either direction) before kicking (with any regular surface). FLYING OUTSIDE KICK 1 add (body) Jump and kick with the outside surface of the foot. FLYING INSIDE KICK 1 add (body) Jump and kick with the inside surface of the foot. CLIPPER KICK / CROSS-BODY INSIDE KICK 1 add (cross-body) An inside kick (using the instep surface) made with the kicking leg tucked behind the support leg (in the cross-body position). To execute a right-leg clipper kick, step to your right with your left leg crossing in front of your right leg, and kick the footbag with the instep of your right foot, on the left side of your body (i.e., with your legs crossed). This is the classic "cross-body" position. SOLE KICK 1 add (unusual surface) A kick made with the sole. To execute this move with your right leg, set the footbag just under an arm's length off the right side of your body. Then kick the footbag with the right sole, pointing the knee down and into your other knee to get a flat sole, and fully extending the ankle. Try to pop the footbag straight up. CLOUD KICK 1 add (unusual surface) A kick made with the calf of the leg. FOREHEAD STALL 1 add (unusual surface) Delay the footbag on the forehead. Note: This move is one add, and does not count in the delay category. NECK CATCH 1 add (unusual surface) Catch the footbag behind the neck. Note: This move is one add, and does not count in the delay category. AROUND-THE-WORLD KICK 1 add (dexterity) Circle the footbag (in either direction) before kicking (with any regular surface). +---------------+ | Two-Add Moves | +---------------+ AROUND-THE-WORLD STALL 2 adds (dexterity, delay) Circle the footbag (in either direction) and catch it with the circling (dexterity) foot (using a toe or inside stall). The set can be a toe stall, inside stall, clipper stall, kick, etc. Remember that the set is not counted in the 2-add ranking of this move, but the final delay is. LEG-OVER / SWITCH-OVER 2 adds (dexterity, delay) An outside-in around-the-world from opposite set. To execute a right leg-over stall, set the footbag in front of you with a left toe delay and immediately plant the left leg, circling the footbag (outside-in) with the right leg, and stall it on your right toe. The dexterity motion should begin as soon as the setting leg is planted. (The leg-over stall is one way to transfer the footbag from one leg to the other. So try both sides and then try linking them continuously back and forth.) MIRAGE 2 adds (dexterity, delay) A toe (or inside) stall preceded by an inside-out dexterity with the support leg. To execute a right Mirage stall, set with a right toe stall, plant your right leg slightly to the right, bring your left leg quickly under the footbag, then jump back onto your left leg, jumping over the footbag, pulling your right leg up quickly as you jump, then stall the footbag on your right toe just as you land on your left leg. REVERSE-MIRAGE 2 adds (dexterity, delay) Same as a mirage stall, except that the dexterity is performed outside-in. The timing on this move is a little tighter than it is for mirage, because the dexterity leg usually has to travel a little further around the bag. CLIPPER STALL 2 adds (cross-body, delay) A cross-body inside delay. A stalling version of the clipper kick. To execute a right clipper stall from a right toe delay set, make the set go almost straight up in front of you (not too high) and then swing your left leg across in front of your right leg, landing on your left leg with your legs crossed. At the same time as you are hopping onto your left leg, bring your right inside surface up quickly, and stall the footbag on your right instep just as you land on your left leg, leaning to your left to keep your balance. You will usually want to set directly out of this stall as it is hard to keep your balance (especially at first). Resist the temptation to "pop" the footbag up; instead, try to stall it for a solid instant and then control the set out, setting the footbag directly up. Left and right clipper stalls are vital to advanced freestyle (3 adds and up). You should try to repeat clipper stalls on each side, then attempt to link left clipper stalls and right clipper stalls together until you can do them smoothly. Have patience as this move is more difficult than it appears. HOP-OVER 2 adds (dexterity, cross-body) Holding the footbag in an inside delay, jump over the suspended foot with the support leg, ending in the cross-body position. DOUBLE SPIN 2 adds. (2 body). Two spins before a move. FLYING CLIPPER 2 adds (body, cross-body) A flying cross-body inside kick. BENT-KNEE CLIPPER 2 adds. (body, cross-body) A flying cross-body inside kick, except the support leg is tucked under the kicking foot instead of extended as in the Flying Clipper. TOE CLIPPER 2 adds. (body, cross-body) A flying cross-body toe kick. KNEE CLIPPER 2 adds. (body, cross-body) A flying cross-body knee kick. FLAPPER 2 adds (cross-body, unusual) A cross-body sole kick. DRAGONFLY KICK 2 adds (body, dexterity) A flying inside-out leg-over. Jump with the support leg, then circle the footbag to the inside, then up, and over while making a flying inside kick. SOLE STALL 2 adds (delay, unusual surface) Delay on the sole of the foot. PINCHER / SQUEEZE 2 adds (delay, unusual surface) Catch the footbag in the crook of the knee. PENDULUM 2 adds (dexterity, delay) Toe delay that is carried directly behind and up, with the released footbag going over your head and landing in front of you. RAKE 2 adds. (delay, dexterity) Reversal of a Pendulum. A Toe Stall is made behind you, and the footbag is carried forward in a slow arc (first downward, then back upward), and is set up into the air, usually in front of you. WRAP 2 adds. (delay, dexterity) An inside delay is carried around the support leg to a cross-body position. WALK-OVER 2 adds. (dexterity, cross-body) With the footbag stalled on the instep, place the foot on the ground and step over the stalling foot (and the footbag) ending in a cross-body (clipper) stall. PIXIE TOE STALL 2 adds (dexterity, delay) "Pixie" is a concept that refers to a quick inside-out dexterity directly following a set from a toe stall into another move (see below). A pixie toe stall is the simplest form of this type of move. To execute a right pixie toe stall, set from a left toe stall into an immediate inside-out dexterity with your left leg, and catch the footbag on your right toe. (See "pixie mirage", "smear" and "smudge" below.) This looks a great deal like a Paradox Mirage stall, but set from the toe instead of the same-foot clipper stall. DRAGON 2 Adds (cross body, delay) Cross body outside delay. PROBE 2 adds. (cross-body, delay) A neck or shoulder catch that is dropped behind you to a cross-body inside delay. .. for the rest, see the website. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 03:19:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA10214 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:18:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA10210 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:18:26 GMT Received: from eric.w.tiffany@williams.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10207) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA10205 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:18:25 GMT Received: from williams.edu (goshen.williams.edu [137.165.4.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA12659; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:16:37 -0700 Received: from colrain.williams.edu (colrain.williams.edu [137.165.4.4]) by goshen.williams.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11544; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iplink080.crocker.com by colrain.williams.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Jul96-0543PM) id AA04712; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:18:32 -0400 Message-Id: <32699BF7.36C2@williams.edu> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:28:58 -0400 From: Eric Tiffany Reply-To: Eric.W.Tiffany@williams.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Davidson Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Five Point Shred Contest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I would say this is pretty interesting. I'm not sure that 5 is the right number -- maybe a longer string would be more interesting? Also, you said: > * The first add contact must be the the first trick in the players > selected string. This would mean that the first trick would have to be set from a kick, which sort of restricts what the first trick might be. Most people start strings from some sort of stall, either a toe or an inside. On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what people could come up with from a kick set. I guess this is sort of analogous to the creative ways that gymnasts mount the apparatus (like the balance beam or the parallel bars). ET -- __/ _ _/ Eric Tiffany etiffany@williams.edu __/ / 171 The Knolls 413-458-0284, __/ _/ Williamstown, MA 01267 2163 fax From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 03:28:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA10253 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:28:59 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA10249 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:28:58 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10246) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA10244 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:28:58 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA12792 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:27:15 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.52] ([17.127.18.71]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA54602 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:28:03 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32699BF7.36C2@williams.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:29:38 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Five Point Shred Contest Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I would say this is pretty interesting. I'm not sure that 5 is the >right number -- maybe a longer string would be more interesting? Longer, are you INSANE? We're talking about some intense stuff here as it is. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 04:23:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA10332 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:22:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA10328 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:22:12 GMT Received: from stuart.macferson.1@uni.massey.ac.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10325) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA10323 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:22:11 GMT Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA13248 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:18:33 -0700 Received: from stu (actually port866-Auck.ihug.co.nz) by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:17:44 +1300 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961020041450.00688b6c@uni.massey.ac.nz> X-Sender: 95055311@uni.massey.ac.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:14:50 +1300 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Stuart Macferson Subject: Re: [freestyle] Five Point Shred Contest Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:28 PM 19/10/96 -0400, Eric wrote: >I would say this is pretty interesting. I'm not sure that 5 is the >right number -- maybe a longer string would be more interesting? > >Also, you said: >> * The first add contact must be the the first trick in the players >> selected string. > >This would mean that the first trick would have to be set from a kick, >which sort of restricts what the first trick might be. Most people >start strings from some sort of stall, either a toe or an inside. On >the other hand, it would be interesting to see what people could come up >with from a kick set. I guess this is sort of analogous to the creative >ways that gymnasts mount the apparatus (like the balance beam or the >parallel bars). > Firstly, I would like to give Scott's combo idea my endorsement, because this is definately the direction that advanced freestyle is heading. Great idea Scott! However, I do agree with Eric's comments on where the beginning of the combo starts, it should be from the first stall (or perhaps a predefined contact, kick or stall). My only other comment pertains to scoring of variety and difficultly. There seems to be no allowance for variety, for example someone who hits five consecutive eggbeaters, would score the same as someone who combines five completely different moves (assuming equal adds and slops etc). The other area is difficulty, in terms of linking moves. The example here is going from a spinning torque to paradox torque compared to spinning torque to say barfly. IMHO the change of direction needed for the paradox torque increases the difficulty enormously, compared to a barfly which flows from the spinning motion, although they may net the same adds. I understand your origianl post was just some preliminary outlines of the general idea, and in no way am I pretending they weren't. I'm just suggesting that perhaps judging categories be added to compensate for these elements. Although, I know it would be detrimental to over complicate the judging process. Btw, yeah, I haven't seen any computer scientists shred...ay Steve ;) Stuart Macferson - Co Sultan of the AFFC "...Life just fades away Purity just begs Dust to dust, we're wired into sadness..." Billy Corgan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 04:36:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA10358 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:36:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA10354 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:36:24 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10351) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA10349 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:36:23 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13478 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:34:40 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.52] ([17.127.18.71]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA65024 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:35:24 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961020041450.00688b6c@uni.massey.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:37:03 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Five Point Shred Contest Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 9:14 PM -0700 10/19/96, Stuart Macferson wrote: >However, I do agree with Eric's comments on where the beginning of the combo >starts, it should be from the first stall (or perhaps a predefined contact, >kick or stall). Idunno about this, Stuart. I mean, a freestyler who can't do his/her first move off a kick is probably not going to score well in this event anyway. >My only other comment pertains to scoring of variety and >difficultly. Not to dismiss your comments, but I have to mention that if we're not too careful we'll end up simply reinventing the existing system. The idea here (if I can presume to understand Scott's intention with proposing this system) is to focus only on a few dimensions to simplify the system and to make it interesting to a certain class of player. I don't know how to reconcile the issue you bring up, however, in this system. Hmm.. Have to think about it some more. >Btw, yeah, I haven't seen any computer scientists shred...ay Steve ;) You may meet one before you expect. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 05:00:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA10397 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:00:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA10393 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:00:36 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10390) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA10388 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:00:36 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13669; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:58:52 -0700 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA19719; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:00:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id AAA25615; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:00:46 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:00:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Scott Davidson cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New Freestyle Event In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Scott Davidson wrote: > Hi Freestylers! > > Does anyone want to hear about a new event that is being proposed for > freestylers? One that focuses on moves and strings, not on dance and > fluff? Not me! although I will admit to being curious about what the "new" aspect is, since I don't see it in the above. New to me would be - presentation is *actually* considered & not just a duplicate of comp scores. Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu Mother of 17-month old Grace who now picks up a footbag & puts it on her own toe & also says "go kick" From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 18:42:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA11436 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:42:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA11432 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:42:09 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11429) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA11427 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:42:04 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26219 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:40:32 -0700 Received: from gold.missouri.edu (gold.missouri.edu [128.206.2.3]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA138262; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:42:06 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by gold.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA120770; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:42:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: gold.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:42:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@gold.missouri.edu To: Genz Daryl S cc: Jef Lepine , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox In-Reply-To: <3267CAFB.446B9B3D@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Genz Daryl S wrote: Daryl wrote: > > SURE! But good luck trying to set striaght up from there! > It ain't easy!! Maybe it should be worth an extra add. ;-) Derrick Fogle does this outside set for a paradox mirage and whirl, it's tuff. Does it get the paradox add? I've heard different opinions. joe marschall From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 18:48:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA11459 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:48:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA11455 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:48:24 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11452) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA11450 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:48:23 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26228 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:46:52 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.52] ([17.127.18.71]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA49278 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:47:31 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3267CAFB.446B9B3D@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:49:10 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Symp and Paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:42 AM -0700 10/20/96, Joe Marschall wrote: >Daryl wrote: >> >> SURE! But good luck trying to set striaght up from there! >> It ain't easy!! Maybe it should be worth an extra add. ;-) > >Derrick Fogle does this outside set for a paradox mirage and whirl, it's >tuff. Does it get the paradox add? I've heard different opinions. Joe, that's not what Daryl was talking about -- he was talking about a dragon set (which is in exactly the same move as a cross-body inside delay; just outside). But the other question -- whether or not a move can be "paradox" from any set other than a clipper (whether a regular clipper or a dragon-clipper) -- is the bone of contention here. I claim (and will probably always claim) that paradox moves can be set from other sets, i.e., from the outside delay you're talking about. I do a lot of paradox moves off a sole delay; why should I get *less* adds than a paradox off the other-side clipper? The BAP contingent has argued here that this is because in these cases you're not using the same foot as the setting foot to do the (in-out) dexterity. But this is exactly why I say that long-winded description of paradox given by both Josh Casey and Paul Munger is just not correct. :-) Anyway, everyone should just hold their breaths -- The Enforcer will comment soon, right Kenny? We will probably all feel like idiots when he does. And I'm sure before anything else, he'll slam the hell out of me. He always does. :-) Love ya, Ken. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 18:59:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA11496 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:58:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA11492 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:58:50 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11489) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA11487 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:58:50 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26327 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:57:19 -0700 Received: from gold.missouri.edu (gold.missouri.edu [128.206.2.3]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA39286; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:58:58 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by gold.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA157270; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:59:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: gold.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:59:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@gold.missouri.edu To: MIKE3094@aol.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:[Freestyle]Weird Move In-Reply-To: <961018212913_336925023@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 MIKE3094@aol.com wrote: Steve and Mike wrote: > >Possibly, Paul, but more likely he's planting his set foot first. Mike, > >can you clarify? If you're planting your set foot, it seems like a blurry > >(non-paradox) same-side whirl. > > What Steve says sounds right, a blurry same-side whirl. Sorry if I didnt > clarify. Oh yeah and today at skool Ryan M. hit 17 symposium mirages. They > werent cros body rakes because i watched carefully and he barely turned at > all. Hey folks, Mike those planting moves are so much fun. I learned that quick planting/stomping almost pogo set when was first starting to hit blur and I found myself trying all sorts of moves after it. like, whirl , another leg over so as to make it a planting barrage, same side osis to make it a planting blender(which is the only way i can do blender, it can be a kind of crutch) What would be really fun would to do a gyro after that set. I like that idea you Mike about going back around it with the miraging leg. I just wanted through my cents in. later, joe marschall. > > > > > > > Mike > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 20:57:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA11714 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:57:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA11710 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:57:20 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11707) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA11705 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:57:19 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA27554 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:55:50 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.102]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.1/8.8.0) with ESMTP id QAA27725; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.1/8.8.0) id QAA25807; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610202057.QAA25807@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: HuMungis@kode.net, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org okay, now according to Hu-Mungis, and through him, Ken and Rick, the way pogos are typically done deserve on ly one add. for what ? dexterity? body ? as a defraction set, what does it get? is it a reverse refraction? or a reverse wrap? i say reverse wrap. simplifies things by not involving a set or catch. technically, i think wrap is classified as a dexterity, and i strongly support changing this classification- it's a headache of a concept. so, what this in essence means is that a pogo does not deserve symposium when it is done poorly. when the, for lack of a better term, dexterity is performed without the bag having fully left the set foot. to me, this indicates that the definition, and idea, of a symposium add for a pogo set is not in question- only how well it is done. like if someone were to do a double around the world and "the"d the second dexterity. it's still called a dexterity, but the add is lost. so someone does pogo-paradox mirage, but they slur the set/sympdext by doing something obviously defraction like. they still hit a move best termed pogo-paradox mirage, but any good shredder trying to help the freestyler learn would say- "hey- you slurred the set, your symposium was CHEEZ at best." so, really, my point to this rave is why create a line of debate for the defintion of symposium or ( as a result of ) pogo, when we can just treat it like we do "the" dexterities? adios- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 21:27:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11769 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:27:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11765 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:27:25 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11762) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA11760 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:27:24 GMT Received: from po2.wam.umd.edu (po2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.134]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA27853 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:25:56 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.102]) by po2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id RAA16992; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:27:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.1/8.8.0) id RAA28171; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610202127.RAA28171@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: dervish@juno.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org i'm not sure what i said that you sent me the question: okay. So if I: clip > same in dex > spin > op toe ridiculous as it sounds, a paradox mirage with a spin smack dab in the middle; does paradox subsume or become subsumed by the spin? but i would say if the paradox dext is completed before the spin intiated, or if the spin did nothing to make the paradox aspect of the difficulty easier, then neither would consume the other. l8r- vince ; From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 21:47:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11796 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:47:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11792 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:47:23 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11789) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA11787 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:47:23 GMT Received: from po1.wam.umd.edu (po1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.133]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA28061; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:45:51 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.102]) by po1.wam.umd.edu (8.8.1/8.8.0) with ESMTP id RAA00502; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:47:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.1/8.8.0) id RAA29889; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610202147.RAA29889@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: enlightener@footbag.org, yaroslav@XCF.Berkeley.EDU Cc: brat@research.apple.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org actually, as a computer science major, i can see your point about using regular expressions, but i have to disagree. yes it is easier to communicate explicitly with a language more regular than any spoken one, and yes it is possible to construct such a language. but the reason english or any other spoken language seems relatively ambiguous is not because it is by its own nature less explicit. it is simply because peoples use of it is less explicit, and fundamentally all communication is flawed by how people use their languages. and if we can come up with a good regular language to use, it will be misused, and concepts will be misunderstood, and first, you'd have to explain it well enough for everyone to be able to use it. so ia m not a promoter of this new language of freestyler. i will learn how to use it if i can, and i will point out its flaws as they beocme apparent to me. and i will use it if it seems everyone else digs it. i must suggest that before that list is again presented to anyone, that the names of teh moves be thourghly checked against their descriptions. i could have sowrn almost fifty percent of them were wrong. also, i apoologize to you both for my terse, serious tone in the majority of my messages, but i feel astronger responsibility to freestyle and footbag than i do to my studies, but its my studies and my jobs that this kind of endless discussion sabotages that i need to get done, so i am feelin gmighty antagonistic about being on the freestyle list. i do feel as an ifab freestyle member that i should be on the list. and i do feel that i am a valuable member of the ifab. if for no other reason than that i am capable of disagreeing with everyone else, making it possible to create more concise definitions. reality is we are all right, we just have to figure out how to agree. in any case, i am considering having myself removed from the freestyle list, and want input on the idea. please address such directly to me- i wil probably have to forgo examining all the email i get for teh next week. i will look at everything not from owner-freestyle. if i do remove myself from the list i will endeavor to create a soearate list for me, josh, and the upenn boys. they will keep me in tune, and i will lend my efforts to tand through them. \ adios- vinc. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 20 22:13:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA11840 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 22:13:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA11836 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 22:13:14 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11833) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA11831 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 22:13:14 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA28338 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:11:45 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-01.kode.net [206.42.219.20]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA26241 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:19:48 -0700 Message-ID: <326AA36D.6433@Kode.net> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:10:53 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] new osis record Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey everyone!! Steve (Kosmo) Kremer busted the Hu-Mungis record of 176 with 186 osis!!!! Yes that's osis back and forth behind you 186 times. Great Job Kosmo!!! (BAP member) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 00:04:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA12111 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:04:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA12107 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:04:12 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12104) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA12102 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:04:11 GMT Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.135]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA29494 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:02:45 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.102]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id UAA00811 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:04:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.1/8.8.0) id UAA08903 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610210004.UAA08903@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] status Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey hey. just letting all freestylers who want mey input on these ideas that i am unsubscribed from the list now. it's this degree thing. one more class, and i'm spending more time currently with our evergrowing conceptualizations than i am on my homework, so i have severed the vein temporarily. i'll try and keep monitoring so i don't get lost, and please write me directly as you wish. i know i will take the time to respond. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 01:16:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA12279 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 01:16:18 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA12275 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 01:16:17 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12272) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA12270 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 01:16:17 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA30209 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:14:50 -0700 Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA01565; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:16:28 -0400 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:16:28 -0400 Message-ID: <961020211601_1548010039@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: c655664@showme.missouri.edu cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:[Freestyle]Weird Move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Hey folks, Mike those planting moves are so much fun. I learned that >quick planting/stomping almost pogo set when was first starting to hit >blur and I found myself trying all sorts of moves after it. like, whirl , >another leg over so as to make it a planting barrage, same side osis to >make it a planting blender(which is the only way i can do blender, it can >be a kind of crutch) What would be really fun would to do a gyro after >that set. I like that idea you Mike about going back around it with the >miraging leg. I just wanted through my cents in. later, joe marschall. I got close to this one: blurry set, plant feet then do a double over down on the same side. I guess ths would be called a same-side blurriest? I have no clue. -Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 03:57:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA12618 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 03:57:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA12614 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 03:57:39 GMT Received: from kathyh@nccn.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12611) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA12609 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 03:57:39 GMT Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [205.139.74.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA31873 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:56:14 -0700 Received: from kathyh.nccn.net (ppp198.nccn.net [205.139.74.198]) by nccn.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22590 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610210359.UAA22590@nccn.net> X-Sender: kathyh@mailhost.nccn.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: kathyh@nccn.net (Kathy Hillis) Subject: [freestyle] a few things Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi list, I wanted to say that I think scott's deal sounds good. A few more tricks might be better. 7 mabey? And there should be a way to earn more points for both side use. Now on to Daryls comment on an extra add for a dragon set. I think that that is a great idea. And to those of you who disagree, I think you should get out of that chair you're in and try to get a worthwhile set off a dragon. Now I would(this is a freestyle list) like to hear some insane combos people have been hitting. Mine whould have to be spining osis, spinning osis, gyro mirage, toe whirl, blender, paradox whirl, barrage. That was one of my better runs yesterday. Just wondering what every one is hitting! Dave Hillis, Nevada City, CA From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 07:10:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA13031 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:10:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA13027 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:10:08 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13024) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA13022 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:10:07 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA01087 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:08:44 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DAD14094; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 03:06:12 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 02:36:58 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things Message-ID: <19961021.023748.3782.3.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610210359.UAA22590@nccn.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-17 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:59:18 -0700 (PDT) kathyh@nccn.net (Kathy Hillis) writes: >Hi list, > Now on to Daryls comment on an extra add for a dragon >set. I think that that is a great idea. And to those of you who >disagree, I think you should get out of that chair you're in and try to get a >worthwhile set off a dragon. I believe he was referring to a paradox add, as it isn't a clipper set. >Just wondering what every one is hitting! > > Dave Hillis, Nevada City, CA > > I gotta get back to you on that one. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 07:53:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA13176 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:53:33 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA13172 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:53:32 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13169) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA13167 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:53:32 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA01570 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:52:09 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-35.kode.net [206.42.219.54]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA15683 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 04:00:11 -0700 Message-ID: <326B2B6F.3DB0@Kode.net> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 03:51:11 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things References: <199610210359.UAA22590@nccn.net> <326B2AE6.38CF@Kode.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Paul Munger wrote: > > Kathy Hillis wrote: > > > > Hi list, > > I wanted to say that I think scott's deal sounds good. A few more tricks > > might be better. 7 mabey? And there should be a way to earn more points > > for both side use. Now on to Daryls comment on an extra add for a dragon > > set. I think that that is a great idea. And to those of you who disagree, > > I think you should get out of that chair you're in and try to get a > > worthwhile set off a dragon. Now I would(this is a freestyle list) like to > > hear some insane combos people have been hitting. Mine whould have to be > > spining osis, spinning osis, gyro mirage, toe whirl, blender, paradox whirl, > > barrage. That was one of my better runs yesterday. Just wondering what > > every one is hitting! > > > > Dave Hillis, Nevada City, CA > > Dude thats a RAGING combo!!! Love to here it. I hope to see you bustin the Phat > trix soon. Sounds like you have been putting in some time. Cool. > > I agree with you and daryl about the dragon set. Thats a hardass set. But I would > not think that a simple outside set into anything would be worth another add. > > Here's a cool combo that I busted, Rippwalk, paradox whirl, paradox drifter, > blender, paradox drifter, down double and the blur went off my toe!! > > Haven't been skooling like I should. But here'in about an Absolutely HEIN combo,from > a guy I don't ever remember meeting; I know my sorry ass is gonna start!!:-) > > Think about X-mas jam.:) > > Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 08:04:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA13206 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:04:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA13202 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:04:34 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13199) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA13197 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:04:33 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA01673 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 01:03:10 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id EAA20120; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 04:04:54 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 04:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610210804.EAA20120@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things To: HuMungis@kode.net (Paul Munger) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 04:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <326B2B6F.3DB0@Kode.net> from "Paul Munger" at Oct 21, 96 03:51:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > spining osis, spinning osis, gyro mirage, toe whirl, blender, paradox > > whirl, barrage. That was one of my better runs yesterday. Just > > wondering what > > Dave Hillis, Nevada City, CA > Here's a cool combo that I busted, Rippwalk, paradox whirl, paradox drifter, > blender, paradox drifter, down double and the blur went off my toe!! > Paul Munger, Flint, MI Umm... I haven't been working combos recently, but a few nice moves I've just recently hit included pixie-ducking-clipper stall (Road-Runner), pixie-dragonfly (Flying Smear Kick) and weak side double switch-over. Can't wait till I'm able to link like the above. Lates, Alex p.s. Fucking hell Dave, what's in that Nevada City water, and could you send some of it down here please? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 14:24:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA13724 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:23:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA13720 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:23:44 GMT Received: from jnewman1@emerald.tufts.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13717) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA13715 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:23:44 GMT Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA05447; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:22:26 -0700 Received: from localhost (jnewman1@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.7.6/8.7.6) with SMTP id KAA21304; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:24:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Jordan Newman To: Scott Davidson cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Five Point Shred Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This event sounds awesome to me. I definetely think we need an event that encourages more difficult moves. I also think this event would work well more not only pro, but intermediate and, um... my lowly level. Nooms From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 15:01:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA13803 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:01:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA13799 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:01:55 GMT Received: from davids@ax.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13796) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA13794 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:01:55 GMT Received: from pawn.ax.com (pawn.ax.com [199.184.188.7]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA05849 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:00:39 -0700 Received: from localhost (davids@localhost) by pawn.ax.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id IAA12743 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:03:21 -0700 (PDT) From: David Sorenson To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Things I dig about 'bag Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey folks! Just thought I'd write a message to the new enhanced 'style list. I'd like to participate in the symposium/paradox messages, but, alas, I can't do any of those moves yet :/ so I dont' have much to say. Anyway, I was kicking yesterday with a guy who's not into footbag, but he could keep it in the air, at least. And we were in a neighborhood with a bunch of kids. And I thought it was pretty cool the way they all gathered around and ooh-ed and aah-ed every time we made a rad save, or if i hit any of my limited tricks, especially ATW, Legovers, Clipper stall, that kind o' thing...and they really dug flying clippers... Which brings me to my point, i suppose... I love the comments people make about you when you are doing yer thing. I was kickin in front of a movie theater one night, and I was doin silly stuff, nothing too fancy, and i busted out with a walkover...I heard this little old lady behind me say, "Good lord, will you look at that? That young man just kicked that little round thing, caught it, stepped on himself, and kept right on kicking it. Now isn't that just the darndest thing?"...I almost died laughting. Also, I was at sea world a couple of months ago, and I was kickin while i waited for my folks to come out of the bathroom, and this group of people walked by. An elderly man said, "Gee, look at that boy kick, he's pretty good.", to which his (what appeared to be) wife said, "I think that's called hackey sackey or something." A younger member of their party, maybe mid-40's, said, "I heard it's a thing that drug people do." I was pretty offended at that, but then the old guy piped back up with, "Nah, it's from egypt, he's probably just visiting from oversees." I almost died laughing. I am a tried and true california boy...shorts, tee-shirt, light brown hair, and a tan, but nobody'd ever mistake me for anything but a californian. Anybody else have any interesting comments they've overheard about our lovely sport? The Ulfster... Dave From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 15:31:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA13968 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:31:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA13964 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:31:07 GMT Received: from kenned57@pilot.msu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13961) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA13959 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:31:07 GMT Received: from pilot15.cl.msu.edu (pilot15.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.25]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA06050 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:29:50 -0700 Received: (kenned57@localhost) by pilot15.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id LAA51071; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:31:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199610211531.LAA51071@pilot15.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Five Point Shred Contest To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:31:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cameron Dean Kennedy" In-Reply-To: from "Jordan Newman" at Oct 21, 96 10:24:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org i would have to agreee that a five point shred contest would not only work at the pro level but at the lower levels as well. while i don't have many moves, i can still put together a couple of good runs with what i can do. i think that anyone with twenty or thirty moves could put a few strings together and put on a decent show. also with this idea of a shred contest, i assume drops would not be penalized ? -- _______________________________________________________________________________ Cameron D Kennedy | | Michigan state 1668 E Grand river | sign of a bad funeral director: | biochem apt 155 ph 337-9470 | replaces ashes of loved ones | genetics E Lansing MI 48827 | with folgers crystals | footbag ______________________|_http://pilot.msu.edu/~kenned57/______________________ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 19:32:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA14739 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:31:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA14735 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:31:37 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14732) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA14730 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:31:37 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA08742 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:30:17 -0700 Received: from black.missouri.edu (black.missouri.edu [128.206.2.222]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA105050; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:31:28 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by black.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA145390; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:59:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: black.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:59:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@black.missouri.edu To: MIKE3094@aol.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:[Freestyle]Weird Move In-Reply-To: <961020211601_1548010039@emout16.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sun, 20 Oct 1996 MIKE3094@aol.com wrote: > > I got close to this one: blurry set, plant feet then do a double over down on > the same side. I guess ths would be called a same-side blurriest? I have no > clue. -Mike > How about miraging down double down? Did you mean that the same leg goes over (around) the bag three times? that would be bad. very bad. -joe. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 21:50:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA15014 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:50:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA15010 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:50:08 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15007) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15005 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:50:07 GMT Received: from oxywhite.interaccess.com (oxywhite.interaccess.com [198.80.0.100]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA10264 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:48:45 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.248] (d248.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.248]) by oxywhite.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA17079; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:50:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:52:19 -0500 To: Procrastinator the VIIIth , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] comments on voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! >so, what this in essence means is that a pogo does not deserve symposium >when it is done poorly. when the, for lack of a better term, dexterity >is performed without the bag having fully left the set foot. This "the" is called "Slur". nuff said. >so, really, my point to this rave is why create a line of debate >for the defintion of symposium or ( as a result of ) pogo, when >we can just treat it like we do "the" dexterities? See above. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 21:50:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA15025 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:50:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA15021 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:50:13 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15018) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15016 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:50:13 GMT Received: from oxywhite.interaccess.com (oxywhite.interaccess.com [198.80.0.100]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA10268 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:48:51 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.248] (d248.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.248]) by oxywhite.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA17088 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:50:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:52:27 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] Rinch(er), New Move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! I just got back from a luncheon workout, and here is what came of it (theme of the day = gyro)... Infinity to X-Body Pincher (very difficult body twist at final contact) 4 adds. i.e. L Clipper set, left leg over as in infinity, R xbody pincher. (I thought of this a year ago and still only rarely hit it.) and another one that is more adds and less work (at least, for me): Rinch (Ripwalk to X-Body Pincher): 5 adds. i.e. R Clipper set, left leg in-out (ripwalk style), right leg out-in (ripwalk style) to L X-Body Pincher catch. (I thought of this today and hit it numerous times on both sides already) Gotta go! Enlightener! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 23:40:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA15453 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:40:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA15449 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:40:30 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15446) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA15444 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:40:24 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA11557 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:38:56 -0700 Received: (from marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id QAA07249; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:38:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things To: Alessandre S Naro cc: Paul Munger , freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199610210804.EAA20120@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Alessandre S Naro wrote: > > > spining osis, spinning osis, gyro mirage, toe whirl, blender, paradox > > > whirl, barrage. That was one of my better runs yesterday. Just > > > wondering what > > > Dave Hillis, Nevada City, CA > > > Here's a cool combo that I busted, Rippwalk, paradox whirl, paradox drifter, > > blender, paradox drifter, down double and the blur went off my toe!! > > Paul Munger, Flint, MI > > Umm... I haven't been working combos recently, but a few nice moves I've > just recently hit included pixie-ducking-clipper stall (Road-Runner), > pixie-dragonfly (Flying Smear Kick) and weak side double switch-over. > Can't wait till I'm able to link like the above. > Damn you guys are good! Here's a couple of combos I hit yesterday: paradox reverse mirage, pixie torque(I think it's also called pixie osis), torque. Another one is: osis, paradox mirage, double ATW, butterfly, twirl (reverse swirl) Later everyone, Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 21 23:40:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA15470 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:40:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA15463 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:40:36 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15458) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA15455 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:40:35 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA11561 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:39:07 -0700 Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA15235; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:40:58 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:40:58 -0400 Message-ID: <961021194057_1581691783@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: davids@ax.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Things I dig about 'bag Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Anybody else have any interesting comments they've overheard about our >lovely sport? I play at Huntington Beach, Hermosa, and Oceanside in Ca. and I've had this question a lot: " How do you do that?". This bugs me. Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 00:06:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA15693 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:06:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA15689 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:06:37 GMT Received: from stoler@tds.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15686) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA15684 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:06:37 GMT Received: from cerberus (cerberus.tds.com [165.159.61.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA11895 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:05:04 -0700 Received: from hazel.la.tds.com by cerberus (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id RAA02926; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:10:52 -0700 Received: from sparky.la.tds.com (sparky.tds.com) by hazel.la.tds.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16364; Mon, 21 Oct 96 17:08:21 PDT Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 17:08:21 PDT From: stoler@tds.com (Mike Stoler) Message-Id: <9610220008.AA16364@hazel.la.tds.com> Received: by sparky.la.tds.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21743; Mon, 21 Oct 96 17:08:33 PDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Comments people make... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > >Anybody else have any interesting comments they've overheard about our > >lovely sport? > > I play at Huntington Beach, Hermosa, and Oceanside in Ca. and I've had this > question a lot: " How do you do that?". This bugs me. I've had little kids walk up to me and ask me if I was "magic". That put a big 'ol smile on my face. The answer, of course, is "yes". (We're all magic!) .. The question most freqeuently asked of me is: "How many can you do?" Now that one bugs me. Like all these tricks I'm doing aren't as interesting as a good consecutives rally or something. I usually answer this with a "what do you mean?" look and if they persist, I say I don't know, I don't keep count. -Rex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 00:31:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA15963 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:31:32 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA15959 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:31:31 GMT Received: from stuart.macferson.1@uni.massey.ac.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15956) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA15954 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:31:31 GMT Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA12148 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:29:46 -0700 Received: from stu (actually port879-Auck.ihug.co.nz) by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:29:49 +1300 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961022002658.00697e74@uni.massey.ac.nz> X-Sender: 95055311@uni.massey.ac.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:26:58 +1300 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Stuart Macferson Subject: Re: [freestyle] Comments people make... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Greetings all! At 05:08 PM 21/10/96 PDT, you wrote: > >The question most freqeuently asked of me is: "How many can you do?" >Now that one bugs me. Like all these tricks I'm doing aren't as >interesting as a good consecutives rally or something. I usually >answer this with a "what do you mean?" look and if they persist, I say >I don't know, I don't keep count. > > -Rex > > A while ago a pretty funny thing happened to me and my friends one night. I guess it must have been friday or saturday night, when these two drunk guys and a lady came up to us and one guy said.."I'll give you $20 if one of you can get 20 kicks in a row"...So we played stupid and told him that that was pretty tricky and none of us have ever done it before, but we'll give it a go. So, Damian whipped out the bag, got the 20 easy as piss, of course, and the guy happily handed of the $20 and they left. We just chuckled to ourselves..... Stuart Macferson - Co Sultan of the AFFC "...Life just fades away Purity just begs Dust to dust, we're wired into sadness..." Billy Corgan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 01:36:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16165 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:36:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16161 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:36:27 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16158) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA16156 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:36:26 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA12881 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:34:48 -0700 Received: by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19979 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:36:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:36:57 -0400 Message-ID: <961021213412_1514596374@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Steve Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Steve, My computer wont let me write e-mail to your address. Ive tried it about a thousand times. Brat@research.apple.com does not work and I have no clue why. sorry man. -Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 01:42:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16284 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:42:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16280 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:42:45 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16277) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA16275 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:42:45 GMT Received: from griffith.Colorado.EDU (griffith.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.76]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA12985 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:41:07 -0700 Received: from griffith (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by griffith.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id TAA12862; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:36:43 -0600 Message-ID: <326C2528.41C67EA6@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:36:40 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things References: <199610210359.UAA22590@nccn.net> <19961021.023748.3782.3.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > On Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:59:18 -0700 (PDT) kathyh@nccn.net (Kathy Hillis) > writes: > >Hi list, > > Now on to Daryls comment on an extra add for a dragon > >set. I think that that is a great idea. And to those of you who > >disagree, I think you should get out of that chair you're in and try to > get a > >worthwhile set off a dragon. > > I believe he was referring to a paradox add, as it isn't a clipper set. > Nope. I'm sure it deserves a paradox add. Its still a x-body set!! I was saying (jokingly) that it should get another add on top of that. Like Dave said, just try setting paradox mirage from a dragon ... it's a bitch! Daryl Genz From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 01:59:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16396 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:59:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16392 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:59:01 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16389) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA16387 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:59:01 GMT Received: from griffith.Colorado.EDU (griffith.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.76]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA13114 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:57:23 -0700 Received: from griffith (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by griffith.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id TAA12868; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:43:05 -0600 Message-ID: <326C26A8.167EB0E7@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:43:04 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Marschall CC: MIKE3094@aol.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:[Freestyle]Weird Move References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Joe Marschall wrote: > > On Sun, 20 Oct 1996 MIKE3094@aol.com wrote: > > > > > I got close to this one: blurry set, plant feet then do a double over down on > > the same side. I guess ths would be called a same-side blurriest? I have no > > clue. -Mike > > > > How about miraging down double down? > Did you mean that the same leg goes over (around) the bag three times? > that would be bad. very bad. -joe. More like a stomping-marraging-down-double. 3 dex, way badass, but easy to "the". I've seen Ironman bust it a couple times, plus both Ben Job and I have hit it a few times. Anyone know a better name for it?? Daryl Genz (Genzu) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 01:59:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16421 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:59:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA16417 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:59:42 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16414) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA16412 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:59:38 GMT Received: from griffith.Colorado.EDU (griffith.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.76]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA13119 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:57:58 -0700 Received: from griffith (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by griffith.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id TAA12874; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:53:11 -0600 Message-ID: <326C2906.2781E494@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:53:10 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Verhoef Anne CC: Alessandre S Naro , Paul Munger , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Verhoef Anne wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Alessandre S Naro wrote: > > > > > spining osis, spinning osis, gyro mirage, toe whirl, blender, paradox > > > > whirl, barrage. That was one of my better runs yesterday. Just > > > > wondering what > > > > Dave Hillis, Nevada City, CA > > > > > Here's a cool combo that I busted, Rippwalk, paradox whirl, paradox drifter, > > > blender, paradox drifter, down double and the blur went off my toe!! > > > Paul Munger, Flint, MI > > > > Umm... I haven't been working combos recently, but a few nice moves I've > > just recently hit included pixie-ducking-clipper stall (Road-Runner), > > pixie-dragonfly (Flying Smear Kick) and weak side double switch-over. > > Can't wait till I'm able to link like the above. > > > Damn you guys are good! > > Here's a couple of combos I hit yesterday: paradox reverse mirage, pixie > torque(I think it's also called pixie osis), torque. > Another one is: osis, paradox mirage, double ATW, butterfly, twirl > (reverse swirl) > Ok, here's the two best combos I've hit recently: Double ATW, Paradon, Double Pickup, Double ATW, Terrage, Terrage, Paradon, Double Pickup. (Terrage is toe set barrage). and: Butterfly, Blur, Paradon, Blur, Paradon, Stomping Miraging Butterfly, Ripwalk, Spinning Osis, Torque, Paradox Whirl, Ripwalk, ground stall (almost a spinning butterfly though ;-<) Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 02:12:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA16494 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:12:18 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA16490 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:12:18 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16487) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA16485 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:12:17 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA13325 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:10:25 -0700 Received: (from marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id QAA07249; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:38:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things To: Alessandre S Naro cc: Paul Munger , freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199610210804.EAA20120@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Alessandre S Naro wrote: > > > spining osis, spinning osis, gyro mirage, toe whirl, blender, paradox > > > whirl, barrage. That was one of my better runs yesterday. Just > > > wondering what > > > Dave Hillis, Nevada City, CA > > > Here's a cool combo that I busted, Rippwalk, paradox whirl, paradox drifter, > > blender, paradox drifter, down double and the blur went off my toe!! > > Paul Munger, Flint, MI > > Umm... I haven't been working combos recently, but a few nice moves I've > just recently hit included pixie-ducking-clipper stall (Road-Runner), > pixie-dragonfly (Flying Smear Kick) and weak side double switch-over. > Can't wait till I'm able to link like the above. > Damn you guys are good! Here's a couple of combos I hit yesterday: paradox reverse mirage, pixie torque(I think it's also called pixie osis), torque. Another one is: osis, paradox mirage, double ATW, butterfly, twirl (reverse swirl) Later everyone, Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 07:40:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA17789 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:40:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA17780 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:40:01 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17777) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA17775 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:40:01 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA16585 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:38:16 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DAC18502; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 03:06:52 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:38:49 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re:Weird Move Message-ID: <19961022.010305.21358.2.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-9,11-16 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> > I got close to this one: blurry set, plant feet then do a double >over down on the same side. I guess ths would be called a same-side blurriest? >I have no clue. -Mike >> > >> >> How about miraging down double down? >> that would be bad. very bad. -joe. > >More like a stomping-marraging-down-double. 3 dex, way badass, but >easy to "the". I've seen Ironman bust it a couple times, plus both Ben Job >and I have hit it a few times. Anyone know a better name for it?? > howabout 'ridankulous' or 'chewy' or something really descriptive? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 14:17:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA18539 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:17:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA18535 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:17:36 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18532) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA18530 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:17:36 GMT Received: from oxywhite.interaccess.com (oxywhite.interaccess.com [198.80.0.100]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA20893 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:15:58 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.248] (d248.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.248]) by oxywhite.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id JAA05921; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:18:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:20:07 -0500 To: Genz Daryl S , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Daryl! >Butterfly, Blur, Paradon, Blur, Paradon, Stomping Miraging Butterfly, >Ripwalk, >Spinning Osis, Torque, Paradox Whirl, Ripwalk, ground stall (almost a >spinning >butterfly though ;-<) Damn.! 11 fours! Awesome! Friggin Awesome! See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 14:22:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA18598 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:22:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA18594 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:22:44 GMT Received: from eric.w.tiffany@williams.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18591) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA18589 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:22:44 GMT Received: from williams.edu (goshen.williams.edu [137.165.4.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA21003 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:21:06 -0700 Received: from colrain.williams.edu (colrain.williams.edu [137.165.4.4]) by goshen.williams.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01174 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iplink066.crocker.com by colrain.williams.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Jul96-0543PM) id AA06035; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:23:22 -0400 Message-Id: <326CDACF.50A@williams.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:32:23 -0400 From: Eric Tiffany Reply-To: Eric.W.Tiffany@williams.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Rinch(er), New Move References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Infinity to X-Body Pincher (very difficult body twist at final contact) 4 > adds. > i.e. L Clipper set, left leg over as in infinity, R xbody pincher. > (I thought of this a year ago and still only rarely hit it.) > I don't even want to think about this. You are a sick person -- your spine must be made out of rubber, and I imagine you do leg curls with the whole stack (each leg). ET -- __/ _ _/ Eric Tiffany etiffany@williams.edu __/ / 171 The Knolls 413-458-0284, __/ _/ Williamstown, MA 01267 2163 fax From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 18:33:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA19400 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:32:44 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA19396 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:32:43 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19393) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA19391 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:32:43 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA23776 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:31:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199610221831.LAA23776@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-63.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA032349095; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:31:35 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:24:12 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] Legbeater/Motion questions Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org If any of the following assumptions I've made about Legbeater and Motion are false, please let me know (otherwise I'll assume they are true): 1) neither one normally causes a plant in between the two dexterities (though, if done that way, would not affect the number of adds) 2) neither gets a symposium add 3) Motion gets a paradox add 4) both require *reverse* mirage (out-in) motions for the first dexterity (otherwise these moves would just be variations of Da Da [toe-set and paradox-ish, respectively]) 5) Legbeater=4 adds, Motion=5 adds -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich #8^i Durham, NC Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 18:57:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA19509 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:57:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA19505 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:57:21 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19502) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA19500 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:57:20 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA24026 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:55:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199610221855.LAA24026@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-63.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA042720677; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:57:58 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:50:35 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] "Paradox" Da Da Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This does NOT receive a paradox add, I suspect: clip > same in dex > op out dex > op clip It's far too easy IMHO to earn 5 adds anyway, but is akin to both Paradox Drifter and "Paradox" Guay. Actually, I find it a bit easier than the latter (and WAY easier than the former), because of the natural momentum gained by hopping over for the second dex. Guay is a little trickier (for me), since you have to keep the support leg planted (requires more balance and a better set). Pretty weird that Guay gets two adds fewer. But I imagine the adjusted scores for these moves (as might be used in the proposed shred contest) would be a little closer to reality, eh? Just an observation. 8-) -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich #8^i Durham, NC Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 19:34:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA19709 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:33:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA19705 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:33:45 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19702) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA19700 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:33:45 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA24423 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:31:45 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA20350 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:33:02 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610221855.LAA24026@Market.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:35:07 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] "Paradox" Da Da Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:50 AM -0700 10/22/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: > This does NOT receive a paradox add, I suspect: > >clip > same in dex > op out dex > op clip Sure it is paradox. By Munger's and Casey's definition, "clip > same in dex" is always paradox if contact later in the move is with the original clip (which it is). By my (hopefully simpler) definition, the S dexterity is absolutely required. > It's far too easy IMHO to earn 5 adds anyway, but is akin to both >Paradox Drifter and "Paradox" Guay. I think I said before, arguments like "it's far too easy/hard to earn X adds" are not really workable... It's better to focus on what technical components are required to hit the move, and say if they're present or not. Until we have a better system, that is. :-) The reason it's not workable to argue this way is that some people find certain things easier, others find them harder; we need an objective way to determine difficulty. Our system is sufficient in most cases. And in my opinion, again, paradox drifter and paradox guay have all the same technical components (as does paradox dada) up to, and including, the "paradox" dexterity. What you do after is your business. :-) >Guay is a little trickier (for >me), since you have to keep the support leg planted (requires more balance >and a better set). Told ya so. :-) But honestly, the hop-over required by the plant leg in paradox-dada is tough to get right. You should be careful you're not "the"ing it. Watch a Dada expert hit this move and you'll see how it's pronounced. (Not to claim you're not an expert; but since you didn't come to any of the east-coast events I begged you to attend, I have no idea how you kick! Heh heh...) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 20:36:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA19970 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:36:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA19966 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:36:14 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19963) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA19961 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:36:13 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA25206 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:34:05 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA13768 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:41:16 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBC02F.575959D0@www.lanit.com>; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:40:24 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Comments people make... Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:40:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Then again, it's kinda fun to be able to say "over twenty thousand" when someone asks how many times I can kick it. That always gets the "you've gotta be kiddin' me" look. When I used to kick in KC in high-traffic areas, I'd often get one of two comments, depending on the onlooker's culture. Either "He's Cold" or "He's Hot." But my favorite comment is always when someone says "Wow, he's actually doing it TO the music!" YES that just pumps my 'nads. Once some guy comented, "Your style is just righteous!" How do you do that? Well, it's a long story. Have you got a few years? Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com >---------- >From: stoler@tds.com[SMTP:stoler@tds.com] >Sent: Monday, October 21, 1996 7:08 PM >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] Comments people make... > >> >Anybody else have any interesting comments they've overheard about our >> >lovely sport? >> >> I play at Huntington Beach, Hermosa, and Oceanside in Ca. and I've had this >> question a lot: " How do you do that?". This bugs me. > >I've had little kids walk up to me and ask me if I was "magic". That >put a big 'ol smile on my face. > >The answer, of course, is "yes". (We're all magic!) > >.. > >The question most freqeuently asked of me is: "How many can you do?" >Now that one bugs me. Like all these tricks I'm doing aren't as >interesting as a good consecutives rally or something. I usually >answer this with a "what do you mean?" look and if they persist, I say >I don't know, I don't keep count. > > -Rex > > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 20:49:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA20036 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:49:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA20032 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:49:35 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20029) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA20027 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:49:35 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA25324 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:47:25 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA14167 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:54:40 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBC031.36129AA0@www.lanit.com>; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:53:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Easy'n'hard Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:53:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Every time i start listening to discussions comparing moves, there's always 2 components: adds according to the system, and whether or not it is really too easy or to hard for the count. I've suggested once before to the horror of others that it would actually be easier (and end all the fussing about paradox and such) if we scrapped the system and just assigned each move according to it's difficulty. Look at the freestyle moves list and figure that the work has already been done already. (insert derisive snort of laughter here thinking about getting IFAB to vote on this) Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 21:05:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20115 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:05:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20111 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:05:22 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20108) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA20106 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:05:22 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA25600 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:02:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199610222102.OAA25600@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-63.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA072778336; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:05:36 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:58:13 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] Sore Shins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Over the past 6 months or so, I've been progressively acquiring more and more shin pain. To the point that now I cannot practice more than once every other day. If I try two days in a row, the walk back home is a truly painful one that second day. I can attribute this to two things: the types of moves I'm doing now compared to 6 months ago and the playing surface (usually a concrete tennis court). Bear in mind I've never had any leg injuries of any kind, so it's nothing from my past. I'm sure not planning to reduce the level of difficulty of the moves I practice, and there's no carpeted area nearby that I know of (my apartment is out of the question for several reasons). Grass doesn't seem to be an optional playing surface either, because of its slippery texture. So what I want to know is: how do most of you deal with this problem, assuming you have/had it? -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich #8^i Durham, NC Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 21:08:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20140 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:08:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20136 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:08:06 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20133) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA20131 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:08:06 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA25619 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:05:45 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id RAA28274; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:08:21 -0400 From: Sunil Jani Message-Id: <199610222108.RAA28274@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Legbeater/Motion questions To: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com (Ernest Crvich) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199610221831.LAA23776@Market.NET> from "Ernest Crvich" at Oct 22, 96 02:24:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Ernest Crvich: > > > If any of the following assumptions I've made about Legbeater and > Motion are false, please let me know (otherwise I'll assume they are true): > > 1) neither one normally causes a plant in between the two dexterities > (though, if done that way, would not affect the number of adds) > 2) neither gets a symposium add > 3) Motion gets a paradox add > 4) both require *reverse* mirage (out-in) motions for the first dexterity > (otherwise these moves would just be variations of Da Da [toe-set and > paradox-ish, respectively]) > 5) Legbeater=4 adds, Motion=5 adds > I am not extremely consistent on my legbeaters (mainly because my clippers suck so bad)... but I always plant after the initial reverse mirage... to the best of my knowledge it is "normally" done like that. Am I incorrect in this assessment? Please let me know. As a matter of fact I plant after the reverse mirage in omelette (reverse miraging reverse mirage) and atom smasher (reverse miraging mirage) as well. Don't Tuan and Noah plant after the reverse mirage as well? Vince? I do not know a thing about motion, but I concur with everything else you mentioned about legbeater. Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 21:09:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20165 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:09:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20161 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:09:55 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20158) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA20156 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:09:55 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA25630 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:07:33 -0700 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13966; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:10:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id QAA05180; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:10:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:10:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: "Derrick G. Fogle" cc: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] (GASP!) Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: > Live jazz. That's what I like to kick to the best. Unfortunately, I > don't get that much anymore. > > It would be interesting to find out what the top 3 albums/CD's people > liked to freestyle to. I think my most-used CD is the Doobie Brothers > "Takin' it to the Streets." I've probably used all but 2 or 3 tracks off > that CD in competition. 2nd would have to be Spin Doctors Jimmy Olson's > Blues CD. There are lots of 3rds, but Ted Nugent comes to mind. > Little Eva & The Works, a Kansas City blues band, has been very good to me as far as stylin music, in & out of competition. Every song on their CD "Tasty Blues" is good kicking music. Second & third are tougher for me to think of right off. I've definitely used Timbuk3 a lot. I keep thinking I ought to buy Paul Simon's "Graceland" CD cause I always have fun styling when someone else (Joe?) brings it to play. C'mon Derrick - how about Phish? You didn't even mention 'em ;-) Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 21:13:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20192 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:13:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20188 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:13:48 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20185) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA20183 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:13:48 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA25729 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:11:21 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA32378 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:13:11 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:10:36 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Easy'n'hard Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:53 PM -0700 10/22/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >I've suggested once before to the horror of others that it would >actually be easier (and end all the fussing about paradox and such) if >we scrapped the system and just assigned each move according to it's >difficulty. Look at the freestyle moves list and figure that the work >has already been done already. Nothing surprising or particularly controversial to this suggestion, from my point of view. The only problem is reality: (1) who comes up with the difficulty ratings?, (2) how do they come up with them? I think the existing system helps break down the moves into their constituent parts making the determination of "difficulty" easier to deal with. Then whoever does (1) can fudge one way or another based on consensus if necessary. But it's still very valuable for us to recognize and discuss what really makes moves harder than other moves. That's why I like discussing these issues -- paradox, symposium, blurry, gyrating, etc.. They all seem to be types of motions that we can compare to other moves with similar motions to help understand the difficulty of them. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 21:20:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20235 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:20:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA20231 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:20:57 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20228) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA20226 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:20:57 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA25769 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:18:29 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25808; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:20:27 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610222102.OAA25600@Market.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:23:20 -0700 To: Ernest Crvich From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:58 PM -0700 10/22/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: > So what I want to know is: how do most of you deal with this >problem, assuming you have/had it? I think a *lot* of freestylers have experienced shin pain (usually shin splints). The main reason is that this is a HIGH-IMPACT sport. Here are the things I've done to eliminate mine, in order of importance: (1) Monitor your shoes for wear on the sole; if you see that the sole is worn down, you should get a new pair right away; in freestyle, playing with worn soles is a formula for disaster -- it's like driving fast on bald tires. (2) Buy $16 athletic shock-absorbing insoles for your shoes, and replace the existing insole with them. Monitor them for wear; if they wear out (usually after 3-5 months) buy a new pair of insoles. Most folks I know use either Spenco or Sorbothane (Sorbo-Air) insoles. (3) Kick on blacktop. Most of the asphalt surfaces are softer than plain old concrete. The issue is shock; your shin muscles are absorbing most of it. Let some of that shock get absorbed by the surface you're kicking on. Asphalt is more rubbery and helps absorb the shock. (The ideal surface I've found is the new track surfaces that are showing up around. They're some wierd high-tech rubber.) (4) Modify your style so you're not pounding so hard. Try to use more of your foot to absorb the shock, and/or try to make your motions more efficient so that you don't hear your feet hitting the ground so hard. When I watch Peter Irish kick, he's almost silent, even though he's hitting some of the hardest combos around. Somehow he's become so efficient that he's not slamming his legs down as hard as the rest of us. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 22:30:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA20445 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:30:18 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA20441 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:30:18 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20438) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA20436 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:30:17 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA26570 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:27:43 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA16991 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:35:37 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBC03F.4F10E300@www.lanit.com>; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:34:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Shin Pain Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:34:41 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have a massively pounding style, an overwhelming love for the grip characteristics of concrete, and the shin problems that go with. My approach is: Use sufficient padding in shoes (Lavers with insoles aren't enough for me; I kick in Nike Air Pegasus with an extra Dr. Sholl's Sports Insole). Kick fewer times for longer periods. This tip was given to me by Jay Winingar; he said kick twice a week instead of four (or five or seven). My daughter has forced this on me anyway. I've been kicking relatively well this season, and have had very little shin pain. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 23:15:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20577 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:15:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20573 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:15:36 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20570) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA20568 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:15:35 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.97]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27109 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:12:48 -0700 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA09600; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:16:10 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:16:10 -0400 Message-ID: <961022191609_1514698836@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: dervish@juno.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:Weird Move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >howabout 'ridankulous' or 'chewy' or something really descriptive? >JP I think it should be called blurrier because its like a blurriest only its a little cheaper because you use only one side of the body. -Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 23:19:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20611 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:19:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20607 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:19:27 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20604) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA20602 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:19:26 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27148 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:16:19 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.51] (d97.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.97]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id SAA04410; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:19:22 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:21:26 -0500 To: "Derrick G. Fogle" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: RE: [freestyle] Comments people make... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derrick and Freestylers! >Then again, it's kinda fun to be able to say "over twenty thousand" when >someone asks how many times I can kick it. That always gets the "you've >gotta be kiddin' me" look. I say "just over 4,200" and that gets me similar looks. Until I tell them the record, then they realize just how much of a slouch I am. >But my favorite comment is always when someone says "Wow, he's actually >doing it TO the music!" YES that just pumps my 'nads. Once some guy >comented, "Your style is just righteous!" I get similar comments to that, but the one that stands out is: "I've never seen someone be so good at something so stupid." That one would have hurt, but given that she was as fat as a whale and will probably die of obesity, it bounced right off. See ya! Scott Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 23:25:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20632 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:25:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20628 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:25:03 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20625) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA20623 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:25:02 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27257; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:21:55 -0700 Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA16185; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:25:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:25:31 -0400 Message-ID: <961022192444_1381112824@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: enlightener@footbag.org, genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a few things Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 96-10-22 10:20:58 EDT, enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) writes: << >Butterfly, Blur, Paradon, Blur, Paradon, Stomping Miraging Butterfly, >Ripwalk, >Spinning Osis, Torque, Paradox Whirl, Ripwalk, ground stall (almost a >spinning >butterfly though ;-<) >> oh man , if you ever need to fine tune your ground stalls just call me up and i'll train you. -Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 22 23:32:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20664 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:32:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA20660 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:32:16 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20657) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA20655 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:32:16 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27277 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:29:19 -0700 Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA27574; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:32:56 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:32:56 -0400 Message-ID: <961022193255_1381116183@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 96-10-22 17:25:00 EDT, ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com (Ernest Crvich) writes: << Over the past 6 months or so, I've been progressively acquiring more > and more shin pain. To the point that now I cannot practice more than once > every other day. If I try two days in a row, the walk back home is a truly > painful one that second day. > I can attribute this to two things: the types of moves I'm doing now > compared to 6 months ago and the playing surface (usually a concrete tennis > court). Bear in mind I've never had any leg injuries of any kind, so it's > nothing from my past. I'm sure not planning to reduce the level of > difficulty of the moves I practice, and there's no carpeted area nearby that > I know of (my apartment is out of the question for several reasons). Grass > doesn't seem to be an optional playing surface either, because of its > slippery texture. > So what I want to know is: how do most of you deal with this > problem, assuming you have/had it? >> Go to a carpet store and (if it doesnt bother you) go 'round back and grab a patch of carpet out of the dumpster. If the owners are there ask them if you can dig in the dumpster for some carpet. They'll probably say yeah unless theyre super jerks. Then just lay it out on the tennis court and bust out. -Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 00:34:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA20833 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:34:47 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA20829 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:34:46 GMT Received: from stoney-r@smartnet.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (20826) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA20824 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:34:46 GMT Received: from smartsun.smartnet.net (smartsun.smartnet.net [208.128.64.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA28007 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:31:37 -0700 Received: from smartnet.net ([208.136.148.46]) by smartsun.smartnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA27726 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:35:19 -0500 Posted-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:35:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199610230035.TAA27726@smartsun.smartnet.net> X-Sender: stoney-r@smartnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:35:39 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: stoney-r@smartnet.net (Josh Bowen) Subject: [freestyle] Slipped my mind Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I can't believe I forgot this. Every year in May we have an apple blossom festival. We have a baseball tournament and I think they have recently started a soccer tournament on that weekend also. We start the weekend with a big parade that just happens to end at the tournament site. Is that perfect or what? The only problem is that the last few years it has rained on that Saturday. I'm sorry I forgot about this in the first message. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 06:08:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA21955 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:08:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA21951 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:08:29 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (21948) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA21946 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:08:28 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA31303 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:05:24 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id AAF11413; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:01:43 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:31:39 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Easy'n'hard Message-ID: <19961022.194715.8566.12.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,5,7-13 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >The only problem is reality: (1) who comes up with the difficulty ratings?, How about all of us, together, here on the freestyle list? Someone makes a suggestion ie. the 'doubledowns' in order of difficulty: paradon, doubleoverdown. barfly, downdouble. >(2) how do they come up with them? >Then whoever does (1) can fudge one way or another >based on consensus if necessary. Well, if it's done by consensus, it's agreed upon the same way, eh? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 06:31:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA22051 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:31:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA22047 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:31:33 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (22044) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA22042 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:31:33 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA31510 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:28:29 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id AAD11413; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:01:43 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:08:40 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re: Sore Shins Message-ID: <19961022.194715.8566.10.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610222102.OAA25600@market.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-7,9,12,14-17 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:58:13 -0400 Ernest Crvich writes: > > Over the past 6 months or so, I've been progressively >acquiring more >and more shin pain. > I can attribute this to the playing surface (usually a concrete >tennis court). Well Ernesto, Steve's advice is all crucial and on the money, but he left out one major contention, namely stretching. It feels good ad it's good for you, assuming you don't overdo it. Bend your knee all the way, grab your toes from behind and try to break your grip. The other good one is by standing on a step on your toes and lowering your whole body down. Then there's always painkillers and rest...... JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 13:55:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA22826 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:55:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA22822 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:55:13 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (22819) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA22817 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:55:13 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA03035 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:52:13 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-15.kode.net [206.42.219.34]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA03586 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:02:21 -0700 Message-ID: <326E22D6.BF9@Kode.net> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:51:18 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > > At 1:58 PM -0700 10/22/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: > > So what I want to know is: how do most of you deal with this > >problem, assuming you have/had it? > > I think a *lot* of freestylers have experienced shin pain (usually shin > splints). The main reason is that this is a HIGH-IMPACT sport. > > Here are the things I've done to eliminate mine, in order of importance: > > (1) Monitor your shoes for wear on the sole; if you see that the sole > is worn down, you should get a new pair right away; in freestyle, > playing with worn soles is a formula for disaster -- it's like driving > fast on bald tires. > > (2) Buy $16 athletic shock-absorbing insoles for your shoes, and replace > the existing insole with them. Monitor them for wear; if they wear > out (usually after 3-5 months) buy a new pair of insoles. Most > folks I know use either Spenco or Sorbothane (Sorbo-Air) insoles. > > (3) Kick on blacktop. Most of the asphalt surfaces are softer than > plain old concrete. The issue is shock; your shin muscles are > absorbing most of it. Let some of that shock get absorbed by the > surface you're kicking on. Asphalt is more rubbery and helps absorb > the shock. (The ideal surface I've found is the new track surfaces > that are showing up around. They're some wierd high-tech rubber.) > This is VERY wrong!! This type of surface WILL make your shins hurt so bad you won't beable to walk if you keep kicking on it. The track is too soft so when you do a clipper or any twisting motion. Your shins are forced to take ALOT more of the burden of weight. Your shoes will grip the surface alot better(hence the better feel) but your shins are forced to deal with the twisting motions. This extra twisting motion causes a Great deal more pain than usual.(I have stress fractures in both of mine and alot of shredders prolly do too they just don't know it.) I though that the track by my house was a killer place to jam, but i FOUND THAT i HURT ALOT MORE AFTER PLAYING. When I quit playing on it,I stopped hurting so much. I guess that this could have to do with my level of play but if I were you or anyone else, I would not kick on these surfaces. Ken has had similar problems with the rubber mat he uses in his skool house. > (4) Modify your style so you're not pounding so hard. Try to use more > of your foot to absorb the shock, and/or try to make your motions > more efficient so that you don't hear your feet hitting the ground > so hard. When I watch Peter Irish kick, he's almost silent, even > though he's hitting some of the hardest combos around. Somehow > he's become so efficient that he's not slamming his legs down as > hard as the rest of us. :-) > > Steve Over all Steve is giving you good advice. Use it, and you should see a dramatic drop in the level of pain the you are experiencing. Also ibuprophen is a great option. (NEVER on an empty stomach though) Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 14:50:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA22972 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:50:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA22968 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:50:23 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (22965) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA22963 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:50:23 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA03543 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:47:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199610231447.HAA03543@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-67.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA164882209; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:50:09 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:42:46 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> (3) Kick on blacktop. Most of the asphalt surfaces are softer than > > This is VERY wrong!! This type of surface WILL make your shins hurt so bad So what *is* the ideal shredding surface to minimize injury/pain risk? Short-pile carpet? Wood (like a basketball court)? Astroturf? Rose petals? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 15:02:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA23019 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:02:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA23015 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:02:24 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (23012) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA23010 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:02:24 GMT Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA03652 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:59:27 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.173] ([17.127.18.173]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA72816; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:02:12 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610231447.HAA03543@Market.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:03:05 -0700 To: Ernest Crvich From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:42 AM -0700 10/23/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: >>> (3) Kick on blacktop. Most of the asphalt surfaces are softer than >> >> This is VERY wrong!! This type of surface WILL make your shins hurt so bad > > So what *is* the ideal shredding surface to minimize injury/pain >risk? Short-pile carpet? Wood (like a basketball court)? Astroturf? Rose >petals? Woah! Wait. You misquoted Paul! He was not saying blacktop is a bad surface (I hope not, anyway). He was talking about my very last comment about high-tech rubber surfaces for tracks. I don't know why he thinks the rubber surface is bad, but I don't dispute it if his experience is worse than mine. But BLACKTOP is an excellent surface, and I don't think Paul was saying that. Right, Paul? Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 15:54:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA23121 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:54:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA23117 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:54:20 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (23114) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA23112 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:54:20 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA04411 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:51:23 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LAA09061; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:38:44 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:30:54 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Comments people make... Message-ID: <19961023.112411.22214.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-11,14,16,18,20,22,25,27-30 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I say "just over 4,200" and that gets me similar looks. Until I tell >them the record, then they realize just how much of a slouch I am. >>But my favorite comment is always when someone says "Wow, he's >actually doing it TO the music!" YES that just pumps my 'nads. Once some guy >>comented, "Your style is just righteous!" > >I get similar comments to that, but the one that stands out is: >"I've never seen someone be so good at something so stupid." That one >would have hurt, but given that she was as fat as a whale and will >probably die of obesity, it bounced right off. > Well, I had seen this post a couple of times in the last day or two, and I hadn't really considered answering it; I generally play in a tourist trap and I see dozens of tourists whenever I play. I've heard, "what is that thing ; what's it made of" and "are you soccer players" and pretty much that kind of trite jawin'. But today, washed up comic Richard Lewis was filming something or other, and he walked by our circle with a camera crew. Well, to be frank, his inconsiderate camera crew walked right *into* us. Seven guys holding a camera, no one was looking where they were going. Anyway, the unfunny and pessemistic Mr. Lewis says to Ethan, "How do you lose?" or something to that effect. Ethan shrugged and said 'you can't' and Lewis trots on, entourage and all. We blew him off, and I hope it gets on TV for exposure and all that, but I feel weird about it. Ethan? Josh From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 19:27:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA23790 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:27:16 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA23786 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:27:16 GMT Received: from elklein@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (23783) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23781 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:27:11 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA06593 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:24:08 -0700 Received: (from elklein@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id PAA10203 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:27:48 -0400 (EDT) From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610231927.PAA10203@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Richard Lewis and such To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:27:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Freestylers, Our footbag circle did have a little encounter with Richard Lewis (relatively unfunny, IMHO, forehead touching comedian) in Washington Square in NYC yesterday. The exact exchange went as follows: Richard Lewis and entourage bump into out circle, completely oblivious to circle etiquette, Richard checks it out briefly, asks me, "who loses in this game?" I say, "there are no losers, my friend." He follows, "That's the way it sould be." And strolls away. So I don't feel that we dissed him, rather made him aware of the unique, cooperative foundation of footbag freestyle that helps make it THE DANK! Later, Ethan The following constitutes wishful day-dreaming on my part, but I've been trying barraging dada curves lately (haven't gotten excitingly close) but was wondering if people on the listserve hit or know dudes that hit barraging ripwalk, high plains drifter, barraging refraction, barraging paradox whirl? This last one is of course a stretch. I asked Tuan about most of this shit and he told me he hasn't been experimenting in this realm recently. I just think that a barrage beginning, in place of a mirage, represents one of the new pathways the sport is going to evolve into. I also asked Tuan about barraging paradox barrage. he just chuckled. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 20:09:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA23904 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:08:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA23900 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:08:56 GMT Received: from aloe@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (23897) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA23895 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:08:56 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA07004 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:05:56 -0700 Received: (from aloe@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA27446; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:34:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Juliet Pendray Subject: [freestyle] Comments people make... To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199610222351.XAA20706@eniac.yak.net.taz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Kicking by myself at a downtown tourist spot, my hat flew off my head at some point... A tourist couple stopped by and watched me for a bit, said nothing, but took a photo. They left, walking behind me, out of my field of vision. When the bag dropped, I saw that they'd left coins in my hat! juliet From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 20:29:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA24024 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:28:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA24020 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:28:34 GMT Received: from stoney-r@smartnet.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (24017) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA24015 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:28:33 GMT Received: from smartsun.smartnet.net (smartsun.smartnet.net [208.128.64.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA07206 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:25:32 -0700 Received: from smartnet.net ([208.136.148.72]) by smartsun.smartnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04055 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:28:53 -0500 Posted-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:28:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199610232028.PAA04055@smartsun.smartnet.net> X-Sender: stoney-r@smartnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:29:22 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: stoney-r@smartnet.net (Josh Bowen) Subject: [freestyle] oops Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I really didn't mean for that recent e-mail to go to the list. I have no idea how that happened. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 21:05:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA24168 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:05:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA24164 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:05:43 GMT Received: from nbpayne@osprey.smcm.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (24161) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA24159 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:05:42 GMT Received: from osprey.smcm.edu (osprey.smcm.edu [138.78.1.14]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA07635 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:02:20 -0700 Received: from smcm-Message_Server by osprey.smcm.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:43:01 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:35:05 -0400 From: Neil Payne To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Sore Shin Exercises Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, I can relate to the shin splint problem as well. I have had shin splints for many track seasons. The thing that has helped me the most is exercising and stretching my lower legs. I have seen a podiatrist and gotten orthotics which didn't actually do that much in the long term. The exercises I do are similar to the one mentioned by Josh. I do resistance exercises (best with the help of a friend who holds my feet or by myself with a rope). Sitting down, while resistance is applied, I pull my toes towards me, away from me, away from the opposite foot and push the feet together. I do each of these in sets of 10 reps. The other exercise that I like and do more often is done while sitting down, like now typing. With legs crossed, rotate the foot that is off the ground in a circular motion, bending at the ankle. Don't rotate too casually - you should feel some effort in your lower leg. I do about 25 circles in each direction and then do the other foot. I also buy supportive shoes for running and would have to assume that shoe inserts would help in Lavers or whatever you style in. I also ice my shins before and after workouts if I am experiencing any pain. I definitely prefer this to pain killers. Good luck, I hope your shins don't decrease your kicking time in the future. Neil Payne St. Mary's, MD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 21:09:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA24194 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:09:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA24190 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:09:28 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (24187) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA24185 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:09:28 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA07676 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:06:21 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-31.kode.net [206.42.219.50]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA25267 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:16:40 -0700 Message-ID: <326E889D.6360@Kode.net> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:05:33 -0400 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins References: <326E8727.5C37@Kode.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Paul Munger wrote: > > Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > > > > At 7:42 AM -0700 10/23/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: > > >>> (3) Kick on blacktop. Most of the asphalt surfaces are softer than > > >> > > >> This is VERY wrong!! This type of surface WILL make your shins hurt so bad > > > > > > So what *is* the ideal shredding surface to minimize injury/pain > > >risk? Short-pile carpet? Wood (like a basketball court)? Astroturf? Rose > > >petals? > > > > Woah! Wait. You misquoted Paul! > > > > He was not saying blacktop is a bad surface (I hope not, anyway). He was > > talking about my very last comment about high-tech rubber surfaces for > > tracks. I don't know why he thinks the rubber surface is bad, but I don't > > dispute it if his experience is worse than mine. > > > > But BLACKTOP is an excellent surface, and I don't think Paul was saying > > that. Right, Paul? > > > > Steve > > I was talking about the rubber surfaces. Accually the only surface that I have > trouble with would be that of a rubber track. My shins hurt just thinking of > shredding on it. Black top is cool, although I prefer real short carpet. I kick in > racquate(sp?) ball court turned arobics room. You my recognize it from the Raw > Shred vid. > > Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 21:14:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA24274 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:14:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA24270 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:14:10 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (24267) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA24265 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:14:09 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA07769 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:11:02 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.206] (d206.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.206]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA15005; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:14:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:16:50 -0500 To: Eric.W.Tiffany@williams.edu, freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Rinch(er), New Move Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! >>Ripwalk to cross-body pincher >>5 adds. Dex, Dex, XBody, Unusual Surface, Delay I have a better name for this move (no longer "Rincher"): Now it is: "Pinchwalk" See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 23 21:53:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA24417 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:52:58 GMT Message-Id: <199610232152.VAA24417@eniac.yak.net.taz> X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:07:38 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! > (1) Monitor your shoes for wear on the sole; if you see that the sole > is worn down, you should get a new pair right away; in freestyle, > playing with worn soles is a formula for disaster -- it's like driving > fast on bald tires. Although Peter Irish swears by his "the more worn, the better" policy, and because he is king-lord-guru of rakes, his soles disappear quickly. He likes it that way. Go figure. I wonder how his shins are doing. > (2) Buy $16 athletic shock-absorbing insoles for your shoes, and replace > the existing insole with them. Monitor them for wear; if they wear > out (usually after 3-5 months) buy a new pair of insoles. Most > folks I know use either Spenco or Sorbothane (Sorbo-Air) insoles. Sixteen dollars? No way. Try the Spenco most basic insoles, NO arch support, about $5 at sporting goods stores (they hide the cheap ones behind the expensive ones with arch support, so look for a store with a complete Spenco display, and dig into it.) Also, the arch support interferes with the inside delay (it sticks out a little), another good reason to go without the arch support. Your Lavers have a hump in the arch area, you will need to pull out the top layer from the Lavers, not the hump layer. Then put the spenco basic on top of that and you are saved. I swear by them. In 1986, I had really painful shin splints at Worlds in Golden, CO and I bought these and competed (and was destroyed) in comfort, the relief was felt within 3 days!... I have used them ever since and had no problems like that, knock twice on electrons. > (3) Kick on blacktop. Most of the asphalt surfaces are softer than > plain old concrete. The issue is shock; your shin muscles are > absorbing most of it. Let some of that shock get absorbed by the > surface you're kicking on. Asphalt is more rubbery and helps absorb > the shock. (The ideal surface I've found is the new track surfaces > that are showing up around. They're some wierd high-tech rubber.) Blacktop makes the bottoms of your shoes black, and also makes the footbag dirtier when used on such a surface, but even with that in mind it is still probably better for your shins so I agree with Steve on this one. I will say, however, that with the spenco's you shouldn't have to worry about surface. If worried, carpet works for me also. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 03:13:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA25221 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:13:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA25217 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:12:59 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (25214) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA25212 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:12:53 GMT Received: from hamilton.Colorado.EDU (hamilton.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.91]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA11773 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:13:47 -0700 Received: from hamilton (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hamilton.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id VAA03363; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:17:20 -0600 Message-ID: <326EDFBF.167EB0E7@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:17:19 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ethan L Klein CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Richard Lewis and such References: <199610231927.PAA10203@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ethan L Klein wrote: > > Freestylers, Our footbag circle did have a little encounter with Richard > Lewis (relatively unfunny, IMHO, forehead touching comedian) in > Washington Square in NYC yesterday. The exact exchange went as follows: > Richard Lewis and entourage bump into out circle, completely oblivious to > circle etiquette, Richard checks it out briefly, asks me, "who loses in > this game?" I say, "there are no losers, my friend." He follows, > "That's the way it sould be." And strolls away. So I don't feel that we > dissed him, rather made him aware of the unique, cooperative foundation > of footbag freestyle that helps make it THE DANK! That's pretty damn cool. > Later, Ethan > The following constitutes wishful day-dreaming on my part, but I've been > trying barraging dada curves lately (haven't gotten excitingly close) but > was wondering if people on the listserve hit or know dudes that hit > barraging ripwalk, high plains drifter, barraging refraction, barraging > paradox whirl? This last one is of course a stretch. I asked Tuan about > most of this shit and he told me he hasn't been experimenting in this > realm recently. I just think that a barrage beginning, in place of a > mirage, represents one of the new pathways the sport is going to evolve > into. I also asked Tuan about barraging paradox barrage. he just chuckled. I've been messing with Paradox Baroque - havn't hit it yet, but I'm definitely getting close, should have it soon ... Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 03:22:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA25251 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:22:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA25247 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:22:29 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (25244) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA25242 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:22:28 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA11908; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:23:23 -0700 Received: (from marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id QAA24079; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:34:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins To: Scott Davidson cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199610232152.VAA24417@eniac.yak.net.taz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey baggers, I have this shin problem all the time, the pain comes from right at the top of the shin. I get this pain every time I start or finish playing. I can hardly walk after I've finished playing. But I just put insoles in my shoes and I don't seem to get the pain as much. Also I think it helps to have strong quad muscules. I don't think it matters what surface you play on to much. It's your prefrence. Later, Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 13:57:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA26654 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:55:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA26650 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:55:40 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (26647) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA26645 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:55:40 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA18657 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 06:56:38 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.194] (d194.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.194]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id IAA10154; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:56:33 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:58:36 -0500 To: Neil Payne , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Sore Shin Exercises Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! (good stretches, Neil!) It occurs to me that perhaps the act of learning freestyle by "components" will help you to avoid impact related injuries. Heres why (just my theory, could be jibberish): To do a Blur, the components are toe delays, leg over motions, mirages, reverse mirages, paradox mirages, clipper delays, hopping, landing/catching simultaneously, timing and, of course, proper sets. So if you master (not *just* learn) these components, the Blur will come naturally. During the act of practicing these basic components during your path to mastery, you are developing the muscles necessary to perform the basic motions of these components. And therefore are preparing for the later combining of these motions. Many new freestylers, I have observed, take the *fast track* to shredding. This can cause two effects: A) Lack of Variety, and possibly B) Impact related injury. I propose, that by mastering the basic components, players not only increase the scope of their play (in terms of variety and future adaptability) but prepare their muscles for the future of their increasing level of difficulty (and strain) in the tricks. This may have something to do with it, but certainly not the whole thing. Certainly Spenco (without any arch support, just flat green fabric with neoprene-like pad underneath) insoles, good shoes, stretching and playing on a decent surface (still debate there) have their effect too. Just my 42 cents. Enlightener. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 15:46:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA27060 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:44:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA27056 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:44:50 GMT Received: from casey@emuvax.emich.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27053) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA27051 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:44:50 GMT From: CASEY@emuvax.emich.edu Received: from hardy.emich.edu (hardy.emich.edu [164.76.4.4]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA19740 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:45:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:43:57 -0400 (EDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-Id: <961024114357.21222d36@emuvax.emich.edu> Subject: [freestyle] shins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Scott made a really good point. A huge cause of shin pain is of course the surface and shoe support but also making adjustments. If you do a move and there are very few movements outside of the intended path of the move then less shin pain will occur. This goes with what scott was saying about learning moves in steps and mastering those steps. I would say that learning moves in the proper steps and mastering those steps is one of the most important factors in learning freestyle. Also the less adjustments to moves you make due to bad components the less tired you will become. Have you ever noticed how much more tiring learning new moves is than practicing ones that are dialed. Very, Very key. Josh From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 16:17:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA27148 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:17:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA27144 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:16:59 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27141) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA27139 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:16:59 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA20062 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:18:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199610241618.JAA20062@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-63.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA050583879; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:17:59 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:10:35 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Sore Shin Exercises Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 08:58 AM 10/24/96 -0500, Scott Davidson wrote: > >It occurs to me that perhaps the act of learning freestyle by "components" >will help you to avoid impact related injuries. Heres why (just my theory, I agree with your assessment, and admit that I have taken a somewhat "fast track" (i.e., not spending enough time on drills and mastering basic moves before moving on). But it's hard to avoid the thrill of hitting heavyweight moves, ya know? I still remember vividly when I first hit Whirling Swirl (June 1st), Paradox Dbl Legover (set from an Osis), Blizzard, etc. As a result, my right leg double-dex's and left leg clipper sets SUCK hard. I've pretty much lost Blur (and Blurry set moves) and can only do most double-dex moves with left leg dexterities. I guess it's about time (or so my shins seem to be telling me) to slow down, relearn some basics, get some Spencos, and stop being intimidated by that damned Raw Shred video (and I mean that with utmost respect/admiration, of course). At least I finally got Paradon Swirl (within a year of starting freestyle)...it was an unholy grail of sort for me, and one I'll probably revisit from time to time. It makes slowing down a lot more tolerable. >adaptability) but prepare their muscles for the future of their increasing >level of difficulty (and strain) in the tricks. I'm more concerned that my pains are coming from bone injury rather than muscle. All the more reason to shift gears to drill hard on the 2&3 add moves. Thanks to all for your advice! -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich #8^i Durham, NC Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 18:29:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA27475 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:28:50 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA27471 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:28:49 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27468) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA27466 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:28:49 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA21507 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:29:49 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OAA27792; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:03:30 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:54:27 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Sore Shin Exercises Message-ID: <19961024.125428.19062.5.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610241618.JAA20062@market.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-6 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > I'm more concerned that my pains are coming from bone injury >rather than muscle. All I wanna say on this is that I will never use my ankle as a pivot point again. JP {-ow!} From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 19:54:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA27793 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:53:59 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA27789 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:53:58 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27786) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27784 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:53:57 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA22482 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:54:52 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA20691 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:00:47 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBC18E.30BBC730@www.lanit.com>; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:31:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Sore Shins Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:31:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I've found that torsion is a factor in shin problems as well. In the winter I play on tight-loop carpet over concrete that has a much higher grip coefficient than bare concrete. I have more shin problems (with less actual kicking) in the winter with those elements. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com >---------- >From: Paul Munger[SMTP:HuMungis@kode.net] >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 1996 8:51 AM >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] Sore Shins > >Steven L. Goldberg wrote: >> >> At 1:58 PM -0700 10/22/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: >> > So what I want to know is: how do most of you deal with this >> >problem, assuming you have/had it? >> >> I think a *lot* of freestylers have experienced shin pain (usually shin >> splints). The main reason is that this is a HIGH-IMPACT sport. >> >> Here are the things I've done to eliminate mine, in order of importance: >> >> (1) Monitor your shoes for wear on the sole; if you see that the sole >> is worn down, you should get a new pair right away; in freestyle, >> playing with worn soles is a formula for disaster -- it's like >>driving >> fast on bald tires. >> >> (2) Buy $16 athletic shock-absorbing insoles for your shoes, and replace >> the existing insole with them. Monitor them for wear; if they wear >> out (usually after 3-5 months) buy a new pair of insoles. Most >> folks I know use either Spenco or Sorbothane (Sorbo-Air) insoles. >> >> (3) Kick on blacktop. Most of the asphalt surfaces are softer than >> plain old concrete. The issue is shock; your shin muscles are >> absorbing most of it. Let some of that shock get absorbed by the >> surface you're kicking on. Asphalt is more rubbery and helps absorb >> the shock. (The ideal surface I've found is the new track surfaces >> that are showing up around. They're some wierd high-tech rubber.) >> This is VERY wrong!! This type of surface WILL make your shins hurt >>so bad you won't >beable to walk if you keep kicking on it. The track is too soft so >when you do a >clipper or any twisting motion. Your shins are forced to take ALOT >more of the >burden of weight. Your shoes will grip the surface alot better(hence >the better feel) >but your shins are forced to deal with the twisting motions. This >extra twisting >motion causes a Great deal more pain than usual.(I have stress >fractures in both of >mine and alot of shredders prolly do too they just don't know it.) I >though that the >track by my house was a killer place to jam, but i FOUND THAT i HURT >ALOT MORE AFTER >PLAYING. When I quit playing on it,I stopped hurting so much. I guess >that this >could have to do with my level of play but if I were you or anyone >else, I would not >kick on these surfaces. Ken has had similar problems with the rubber >mat he uses in >his skool house. > > >> (4) Modify your style so you're not pounding so hard. Try to use more >> of your foot to absorb the shock, and/or try to make your motions >> more efficient so that you don't hear your feet hitting the ground >> so hard. When I watch Peter Irish kick, he's almost silent, even >> though he's hitting some of the hardest combos around. Somehow >> he's become so efficient that he's not slamming his legs down as >> hard as the rest of us. :-) >> >> Steve > > >Over all Steve is giving you good advice. Use it, and you should see a >dramatic drop >in the level of pain the you are experiencing. Also ibuprophen is a >great option. >(NEVER on an empty stomach though) > > >Hu-Mungis > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 24 21:21:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA28146 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:21:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA28142 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:21:01 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (28139) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA28137 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:21:00 GMT Received: from oxywhite.interaccess.com (oxywhite.interaccess.com [198.80.0.100]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA23488 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:21:57 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.92] (d92.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.92]) by oxywhite.interaccess.com (8.8.2/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA11834; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:21:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:24:00 -0500 To: "Derrick G. Fogle" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: RE: [freestyle] Sore Shins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Derrick wrote: >I've found that torsion is a factor in shin problems as well. In the >winter I play on tight-loop carpet over concrete that has a much higher >grip coefficient than bare concrete. I have more shin problems (with >less actual kicking) in the winter with those elements. Kenny believes that sometimes shin splints are muscles pulling on bone from spinning/planting and causing micro-fractures (or something like that). another penny... Scott. Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 25 01:58:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA29188 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:58:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA29184 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:58:16 GMT Received: from kathyh@nccn.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (29181) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA29179 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:58:16 GMT Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [205.139.74.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA26671 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:58:58 -0700 Received: from kathyh.nccn.net (ppp169.nccn.net [205.139.74.169]) by nccn.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA15199 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610250200.TAA15199@nccn.net> X-Sender: kathyh@mailhost.nccn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: kathyh@nccn.net (Kathy Hillis) Subject: [freestyle] Re: barraging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> The following constitutes wishful day-dreaming on my part, but I've been >> trying barraging dada curves lately (haven't gotten excitingly close) but >> was wondering if people on the listserve hit or know dudes that hit >> barraging ripwalk, high plains drifter, barraging refraction, barraging >> paradox whirl? This last one is of course a stretch. I asked Tuan about >> most of this shit and he told me he hasn't been experimenting in this >> realm recently. I just think that a barrage beginning, in place of a >> mirage, represents one of the new pathways the sport is going to evolve >> into. I also asked Tuan about barraging paradox barrage. he just chuckled. > >I've been messing with Paradox Baroque - havn't hit it yet, but I'm >definitely getting close, should have it soon ... > >Genzu > I have been trying a few barrage set things, nothing to speak of though, gyro barrage is the only cool thing lately. But soon I'm sure we will be hearing about someone hitting Nemisis(The name I've heard for barraging barfly) Sick fuckers who think of that stuff. Dave Hillis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 25 07:48:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA30419 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 07:48:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA30415 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 07:48:33 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (30412) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA30410 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 07:48:18 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA30391 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 00:48:57 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CAB11918; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 02:50:05 EDT To: rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 02:00:00 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re: The true nature of a paradox Message-ID: <19961025.020605.8630.1.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610250055.UAA18037@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-6,8,10-14,16,18-19,21,23-26 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is regarding paradox and how it *could* be defined. A paradox is an inherent contradiction - a thing that can't really exist. So in attempting to define the undefineable, we wind up with a headache. On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:55:33 -0400 (EDT) elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) writes: >JP, I kind of agree about the undefinabilaty of paradox. I have >steered clear of the argument simply because I see it revolving in circles. >The FREESTYLE nature of freestyle footbag is going to continue to stretch >any attempt to lay out a specific infastructure from which to define >moves. I agree with Derick Fogle that each move should be taken as its >own entity. It's the only just way I've thought of for delineating >adds for moves. I mean, when things start to get complex, differences >become incremental. To establish specific boundaries (symposium, paradox, >pogo, etc.) will always result in some moves being closer to these ideals >than others. What to do? Fuck adds! Freestyle onward into creative >bliss. There is no BEST in freestyle, only DIFFERENT. Different moves are >more difficult for different people and body types. That's just how it is. > >Freestyle to be, be to freestyle. >Later, Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 25 08:18:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA30711 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 08:18:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA30707 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 08:18:38 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (30704) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA30702 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 08:18:38 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA30681 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:19:21 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.7] ([17.127.18.40]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA69844; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:18:24 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19961025.020605.8630.1.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610250055.UAA18037@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:20:06 -0700 To: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: The true nature of a paradox Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:00 AM -0700 10/25/96, Josh Penney wrote: >This is regarding paradox and how it *could* be defined. >A paradox is an inherent contradiction - a thing that can't really exist. >So in attempting to define the undefineable, we wind up with a headache. Well, obviously Kenny is still formulating his answers, so onward we go pending His holey (sic) guidance. Here is my best attempt to reiterate my feelings on the subject succinctly and clearly. I'd appreciate if people gave it serious thought: I think Kenny originally meant by the term "paradox mirage" that it was a mirage but it wasn't a mirage, both at the same time.. In other words, the simple description of the move (not counting the set) was in-out dexterity to opposite toe delay = "mirage". Seemed simple enough; but in the case where you set from the same clipper that did the dexterity, it was a lot harder. He didn't really need to explain much about *why* it was harder, it just was, and it was obvious (and still is). Not wanting to put words in anyone's mouth, but I really do remember him saying on more than one occasion, "it's a mirage done the long way around." Well, I think this meshes exactly with the concept of the S-dexterity that I've been advocating. For the record, it's not original to me; this S-dexterity explanation has been around for a long time; some people buy it, others don't. I'm advocating it because I believe it works very well. However, it only seems to apply to in-out dexterities; "reverse" (out-in) dexterities don't fit this model, so let's ignore them for a minute (I'll get to them next). So here's the motion your right foot has --- to travel to perform an (in-out) paradox move, | assuming you're facing the S and the bag is --- in the air in front of you): | --- When you factor reverse-dexterities into the equation, things don't fit this model any more. But the way you perform reverse dexterities *in general* is different than in-out dexterities (I'm talking about generally when the bag is in front of you, not going off to one side or the other). In those cases, to perform the dexterity out-in, you make a completely different motion (that's why they're out-in dexterities and not in-out!). So I claim that out-in paradox dexterities --- end up requiring your foot to follow a path | | similar to a sideways-alpha, as in the \ / diagram to the right: + / \ I believe these dexterity paths are present in every agreed-upon "paradox" move, including paradox dada, paradox mirage, paradox drifter, paradox whirl, paradox torque, blur, blizzard, paradox reverse-mirage, etc. But clearly just because every move that's believed to be paradox (and generally agreed upon by everyone who hits them) fits the simple dexterity-path argument I make above doesn't mean that this is the definition of "paradox", for many reasons. However, by the same token, my gut feeling is that this is it. (And I do like a simple and elegant solution rather than a drawn-out multi-faceted and exception-ridden system.) If you buy (and this is the tough part, granted) that the above "dexterity paths" (the s-dexterity and alpha-dexterity paths, for brevity) uniquely define Paradox moves, then you get into trouble when confronted with moves that fit these motions but aren't currently considered paradox. Examples are: "paradox" guay, "paradox" moves set from opposite-side (non x-body) sole or outside set (instead of cross-body sets), etc. But there really are a limited number of such moves, I believe. I'd challenge folks to find more examples of moves that require alpha-dexterity paths and S-dexterity paths that aren't already acknowledged to be paradox. (I'd also challenge folks to find examples of paradox moves that don't fit this model, in case I've missed something.) So for those moves we come up with that fit the above dexterity paths, let's hash it out. If we can agree that those moves really are "paradox" after all, then perhaps we can get on with it and leave this simple definition to replace the arcane definition we've tried to live with for so long. And life will be wonderful, the planets will come into alignment, our shins will all suddenly stop hurting, and I'll get that extra add for my paradox guay. :-) Damn it's late. Good night. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 25 15:31:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00385 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:30:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00381 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:30:51 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (378) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00376 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:30:26 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA02389 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 08:31:17 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id LAA23344; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:31:13 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610251531.LAA23344@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: The true nature of a paradox To: brat@research.apple.com (Steven L. Goldberg) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu (Vince procrastinator), freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Steven L. Goldberg" at Oct 25, 96 01:20:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi freestylers, > Well, I think this meshes exactly with the concept of the S-dexterity that > I've been advocating. For the record, it's not original to me; this > S-dexterity explanation has been around for a long time; some people buy > it, others don't. I'm advocating it because I believe it works very well. > However, it only seems to apply to in-out dexterities; "reverse" (out-in) > dexterities don't fit this model, so let's ignore them for a minute (I'll > get to them next). > > So here's the motion your right foot has --- > to travel to perform an (in-out) paradox move, | > assuming you're facing the S and the bag is --- > in the air in front of you): | > --- > > When you factor reverse-dexterities into the equation, things don't fit > this model any more. But the way you perform reverse dexterities *in > general* is different than in-out dexterities (I'm talking about generally > when the bag is in front of you, not going off to one side or the other). > In those cases, to perform the dexterity out-in, you make a completely > different motion (that's why they're out-in dexterities and not in-out!). > > So I claim that out-in paradox dexterities --- > end up requiring your foot to follow a path | | > similar to a sideways-alpha, as in the \ / > diagram to the right: + > / \ > > If you buy (and this is the tough part, granted) that the above "dexterity > paths" (the s-dexterity and alpha-dexterity paths, for brevity) uniquely > define Paradox moves, then you get into trouble when confronted with moves > that fit these motions but aren't currently considered paradox. Examples > are: "paradox" guay, "paradox" moves set from opposite-side (non x-body) > sole or outside set (instead of cross-body sets), etc. I do not see an alpha or s pattern when the bag is set from the outside. I do agree with the sole stall however. When set from outside you loose the first part of the S trajectory (see below) Also, how about diving paradox mirage. There is not really an entire s motion there either. you set, plant, and then do a sideways U (top half of the s) dexterity. At best there is a delayed S dexterity. In addition I think that there is more to the dexterity motion than Steve mentioned. If you think about all the S dexterity moves, you will see that the leg does not do an S and stop. Instead it does an S, and then returns to the bottom. Paradox mirage actually does: _ _ _ _ | | _ _ _ | | | _ _ _ | So does paradox whirl, paradox drifter, blender, dada, BUT NOT GUAY! You have to describe the whole motion Steve. I know it is a small amount of real estate that the guay does not cover (the last two dashes), but the outside set does not get paradox for not covering the first two dashes also. Gotta be fair and consistent. p.s. > Damn it's late. Good night. 1:20 is late? How old are you, 5? Have a curfew do we? :') From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 25 21:22:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA02486 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 21:22:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.