From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 01:48:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA10890 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:48:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA10763 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:40:50 GMT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:45:08 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re:Freestyle In DC (past tense) Message-ID: <19961014.194508.3302.0.dervish@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Oh, Darren. You sucker. Well, it all went down yesterday afternoon when we arrived at the juggling capitol. I am, of course, referring to the hours of unbelievable shred. The Participants Included: Jason and Ann and Vince and Tu and Tuan and Eric and Jim and Ann and Greg and Me and Dan and Alex and Ethan. It was awesome. I finally got to see Tuan pull symposium eggbeater and I now have set my sights higher once again. I'd mention more hein combos(thanks Steve) but to be brutally frank it was all to fast to really see. Thanks to everyone for coming and I hope we can do it again real soon. JPers From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 18:59:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA13530 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:59:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA13526 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:59:41 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13523) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA13521 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:59:40 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA12929 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:00:52 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA25198 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:02:27 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Heh heh, now that we're off by ourselves, let's BATTLE IT OUT! Okay. First of all, I claim that a "paradox guay" is worth 3 adds. I've said this since the beginning and most people disagree with me. Let me explain: Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity (paradox style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This is very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body component on the pick-up. Picture paradox drifter, but instead of drifting you just stop short with an inside delay. Carol and I do this trick all the time. It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 19:29:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13733 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:29:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13663 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:23:33 GMT Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:27:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry, Steve, but I agree with you completely. (And it truly pains me to admit that! :) The "paradoxness" of the move occurs before (and up to the point where) the leg passes over the bag. It shouldn't matter which foot catches the bag afterward, it's still paradox. And the name for the blur without that final foot-switch is, of course, the derogatory Slur. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com >---------- >From: Steven L. Goldberg[SMTP:brat@research.apple.com] >Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 1996 2:02 PM >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate > >Heh heh, now that we're off by ourselves, let's BATTLE IT OUT! > >Okay. First of all, I claim that a "paradox guay" is worth 3 adds. >I've >said this since the beginning and most people disagree with me. Let me >explain: > >Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity >(paradox >style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This >is >very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body >component on the pick-up. > >Picture paradox drifter, but instead of drifting you just stop short >with >an inside delay. Carol and I do this trick all the time. > >It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > > Steve > > > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 19:35:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13766 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:35:24 GMT Message-Id: <199610151935.TAA13766@eniac.yak.net.taz> From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate To: brat@research.apple.com (Steven L. Goldberg) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:31:51 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Freestylers, Paradox guay= 3 adds = phat, flowy mcneuver = change up of the paradox mirage staple = Carol does it = gets me on an inside (as opposed to toe) pickup frame of mind (love to set into into symposium mirage-inside pickup) = what about blurry guay? Later, Ethan Tuan Vu RIPS SERIOUS HEIN, as if you all didn't know that already, I just thought I would remind you. No, SERIOUS HEIN, RIDICULOUS, MIND EXPLODING, SOUND BARRIER SHATTERING, CRAZYNESS!!!! pogo voodoo!! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 20:46:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA14043 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:46:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13995 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:40:58 GMT X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:43:38 -0500 To: "Derrick G. Fogle" , footbag@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: RE: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derrick! >The "paradoxness" of the move occurs before (and up to the point where) >the leg passes over the bag. It shouldn't matter which foot catches the >bag afterward, it's still paradox. > >And the name for the blur without that final foot-switch is, of course, >the derogatory Slur. Not so fast. Steve, Paradox Guay is two adds. Period. No switch. Derrick, Slur is already taken. It is the term used when a pogo is done with a pull through rather than a leap over. Sorry guys, no time to argue better than this. Also no time to read the majordomo messages and rework my address book for now. So if any of you footbag net bubba's get this message, then too bad. Ha. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 21:35:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA14198 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:35:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA14194 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:35:35 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14191) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA14189 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:35:35 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA14647 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:29:23 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RAB02072; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:26:36 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:21:09 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Message-ID: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,10-16 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Heh heh, now that we're off by ourselves, let's BATTLE IT OUT! >Okay. First of all, I claim that a "paradox guay" is worth 3 adds. >I've said this since the beginning and most people disagree with me. > Carol and I do this trick all the time. >It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > More importantly, how come 'pdox reverse mirage' is paradox? It's a legover from clipper, bail to other toe... what gives? I think pdox reverse should be entirely different: Clipper set, outside in dexterity with the support leg (like down double) End toe delay, same foot as the set. I don't mind blizzard getting four adds, but , like, what's up wit dat? And while I'm at it, is a paradox add considered body or dexterity? and how about symposium...same question. A sym. mirage is an enormous leap - shouldn't that be 'body' and not 'dexterity'? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 22:03:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA14258 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:03:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA14254 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:03:41 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14251) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA14249 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:03:41 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15060 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:04:37 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RAC12278; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:59:20 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:42:51 PST Subject: [freestyle] The Great Paradox... Message-ID: <19961015.174251.3526.6.dervish@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org So will someone please explain to me why the pdox whirl gets that add? Josh From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 23:08:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14461 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:08:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14457 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:08:30 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14454) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA14452 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:08:30 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA15717 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:09:13 -0700 Received: from port854-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port924-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.162]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA20179 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:11:52 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:11:52 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199610152311.MAA20179@ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: the_sock@ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: The Sock Subject: [freestyle] The not so great Symposium Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok.. whats with symposium??? There seem to be 2 ways of setting it: 1> set, then jump eg. Symp Mirage 2> set as you jump eg. Symp Whirl but when it comes to stuff like Symp eggbeater, can I snake in the set as I jump technique??? It seems to be easier to hit Symposium moves if I am setting the bag as I jump for the symposium... Anyone know which is right? does it depend on if u set a symposium with either a clipper delay or a front stall?? Later. ____ _ _ ____ _ / ___|| |__ _ __ ___ __| | ___ _ __ | _ \(_) ___ From Adrian Dick \___ \| '_ \| '__/ _ \/ _` | / _ \| '__| | | | | |/ _ \the_sock@ihug.co.nz ___) | | | | | | __/ (_| | | (_) | | | |_| | | __/ CoSultan of the |____/|_| |_|_| \___|\__,_| \___/|_| |____/|_|\___| AFFC From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 15 23:21:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14501 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:21:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA14497 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:21:26 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14494) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA14492 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:21:25 GMT Received: from po2.wam.umd.edu (po2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.134]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA15923 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:22:18 -0700 Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.106]) by po2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id TAA19274; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.8.0) id TAA15019; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610152322.TAA15019@rac6.wam.umd.edu> To: dervish@juno.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org dang. i don't know if i'm going to be able to take a freestyle discussion list. it's like having tu over my shoulder everytime i read a message. the endless barrage of the same porblems rehashed last year and the year before and the year before... blizzards four adds- dexterity, paradox, dexterity, delay. yes, it gets credit as a paradox reverse mirage. reasoning: it feels harder to do than regular blur. so it must not be losing any undefinable elements like paradox. i wonder how long before these ideas come to a full scale "discussion" a symposium mrage gets three adds for: body, dexterity and delay. the argument there, to put to the freestyle world at large is: does the term symposium refer to a dexterity, or to the whole move? if the whole move, and not just dexterity, then that would mean no such ting as paradox-symposium anything. if it refers to dexterity only, then how do we define how dexterity must be done in order to be worthy of an aerial body add? pogo sets in general are wimpy pull throughs- no real aerial aspects, at least not before the bag leaves the foot. usually the symp dext and the set occur at the same time on pogo sets, so i wouldn't give most pogo sets ( i am using the original definition of pogo, ie, B.E.) the symposium add. to me a symp add, and possibly dext ads as well, can only be credited for manuevers done after the bag has left the seting foot and is in the air for the complete manuever. enough worms escaped for now, l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 01:08:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14832 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:08:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14828 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:08:14 GMT Received: from dk713994@oak.cats.ohiou.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14825) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA14823 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:08:14 GMT Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17035 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:09:00 -0700 Received: from localhost by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA17920; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:14:37 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:14:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Darren R. Kautz" To: Josh Penney Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re:Freestyle In DC (past tense) In-Reply-To: <19961014.194508.3302.0.dervish@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Josh Penney wrote: > Oh, Darren. You sucker. As if I don't feel bad enough already about missing this one. . . \ O Darren O / \ /\ Russell - /- . | \ Kautz / \ | From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 01:13:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14891 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:13:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA14887 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:13:25 GMT Received: from dk713994@oak.cats.ohiou.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14884) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA14882 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:13:24 GMT Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17128 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:14:12 -0700 Received: from localhost by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA20879; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:19:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:19:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Darren R. Kautz" To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. Good call Steve, I wholeheartedly agree. The twist is present (along with all pain associated) and it seems to me that it should be paradox. I myself don't feel that moves like blizzard deserve a paradox add (I'm stuck on that original Tricks of the Trade video), but if the governing body says it is, I'll take the adds. [Sidenote for Vince: I'd do it anyway cause I think it's FUN!] Steve: Congrats on the new listserve system. Seems pretty cool. \ O Darren O / \ /\ Russell - /- . | \ Kautz / \ | From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 03:15:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA15167 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:15:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA15163 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:15:14 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15160) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA15158 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:15:13 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA18349 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:16:01 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id XAA21667; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610160316.XAA21667@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate To: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> from "Josh Penney" at Oct 15, 96 05:21:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Alright. Paradox Guay = 2 adds. Personally, it is a phatty ass move, that earns you plenty of respect in circles, which should be all that matters, but officially (see below) it should be 2 adds. > More importantly, how come 'pdox reverse mirage' is paradox? > It's a legover from clipper, bail to other toe... what gives? > I think pdox reverse should be entirely different: > Clipper set, outside in dexterity with the support leg (like down double) I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the bag is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. By change in direction I mean the following: The bag is set from right clipper, a dexterity is done in front of the body, and then you have to twist to catch the bag on the right hand side of the body again (right clipper, or left toe). The paradox guay does not qualify because the bag never returns to the right hand side. A paradox whirl should not qualify because there is never a change in the direction that the bag is travelling. However, if paradox whirl is paradox, then paradox guay is also paradox. To Steve: If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over exists and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe instead of inside. If you agree with D.Foggle (the twist is done, does not matter where you catch it), then you agree with paradox leg-over. Later, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 06:58:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA15665 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:58:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA15661 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:58:08 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15658) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA15656 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:58:08 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA19712 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:59:00 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CAA26152; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:46:27 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:47:18 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Message-ID: <19961016.004718.4278.0.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610160316.XAA21667@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-10,12-16,18,20-22,24-27 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:16:10 -0400 (EDT) anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) writes: >Alright. Paradox Guay = 2 adds. > >> More importantly, how come 'pdox reverse mirage' is paradox? >> It's a legover from clipper, bail to other toe... what gives? > >I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the >bag is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. >However, if paradox whirl is paradox, then paradox guay is also paradox. >If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over >exists and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe >instead of inside. If you agree with D.Fogle (the twist is done, does >not matter where you catch it), then you agree with paradox leg-over. Okay. I knew we'd get around to this eventually. Along the same line of logic, if Steve's 'guay' is given the pdox add, and Alex's 'pdox legover' is okay, then do we allow a legover from the clipper the same? No. A paradox reverse gets the paradox for the twist involving the catch, right? So my original 'pdox reverse' stands as: Clipper set, outside in dexterity with the support leg (like down double) End toe delay, same foot as the set. Whaddaya think? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:14:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15738 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15734 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:44 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15731) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA15729 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:44 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA19928 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:15:37 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA01380; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610160316.XAA21667@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> References: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> from "Josh Penney" at Oct 15, 96 05:21:09 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:25:43 -0700 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:16 PM -0700 10/15/96, Alessandre S Naro wrote: >Alright. Paradox Guay = 2 adds. WRONG. >I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the bag >is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. By >change in direction I mean the following: It doesn't really matter what you *think* a paradox move should involve. A paradox move *is* a move in which the dexterity leg travels the *long way around* the bag. That's Kenny's definition and I think it's right. I mean, would you argue with the MASTER? >The paradox guay does not qualify because the bag never returns to the >right hand side. HUH? Who says paradox moves have to return to any side? >If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over exists >and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe >instead of inside. That's like saying if you believe in paradox whirl, you MUST believe in paradox butterfly. And you're mistaken -- the paradox leg-over you describe would not be a paradox guy caught in a toe; the dexterity is the other direction around the bag. And please note, again, that I claim that paradox guay can be looked at, instead, as: paradox drifter without the drifter, or paradox mirage bail to inside delay Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:14:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15778 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:14:50 GMT Message-Id: <199610160714.HAA15778@eniac.yak.net.taz> Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA14697 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:45:53 GMT From: mstrong@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com: Host dfw-tx19-17.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: footbag@footbag.org Message-Id: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> Subject: [freestyle] What's a voodoo X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're at it, could you count out the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). thanks, matt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:20:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15837 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:20:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA14697 for footbag@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:45:53 GMT From: mstrong@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-Id: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> Subject: [freestyle] What's a voodoo X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're at it, could you count out the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). thanks, matt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 07:49:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15919 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:49:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA15915 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:49:37 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15912) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA15910 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:49:36 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA20324 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:50:18 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id DAA11095; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:50:38 -0400 (EDT) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610160750.DAA11095@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate To: brat@research.apple.com (Steven L. Goldberg) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Cc: anaro@sas.upenn.edu, freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Steven L. Goldberg" at Oct 15, 96 11:25:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > >I think a paradox move should involve a change in direction that the bag > >is travelling in, and thus the paradox reverse mirage qualifies. By > >change in direction I mean the following: > > It doesn't really matter what you *think* a paradox move should involve. Of course it matters. This is what I am proposing. I am wondering whether other people agree with me, so I am presenting an argument, especially since there is no official measure of what is a paradox move. > >If paradox guay exists then you MUST agree that paradox leg-over exists > >and equals three adds. It is simply a paradox guay caught in toe > >instead of inside. > > And you're mistaken -- the paradox leg-over you > describe would not be a paradox guy caught in a toe; the dexterity is the > other direction around the bag. I do not propose that a paradox leg-over is a leg-over set from clipper. I am proposing that a "paradox" guay caught in toe is a paradox leg-over. The dexterity is the other direction just as a guay, but instead of inside, you catch on toe. The paradox dexterity is done, the catch should not mattter (You can evben catch on outside for all I care and call it a donkey's tail). If you say that catching it on inside = 3 adds, I say catching it on outside, or toe = 3 adds. Laters, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 08:25:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA16002 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:25:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA15998 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:25:02 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15995) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA15993 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:25:02 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA20617 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:25:56 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA01993; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610160750.DAA11095@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> References: from "Steven L. Goldberg" at Oct 15, 96 11:25:43 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:24:10 -0700 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:50 AM -0700 10/16/96, Alessandre S Naro wrote: >I do not propose that a paradox leg-over is a leg-over set from >clipper. I am proposing that a "paradox" guay caught in toe is a >paradox leg-over. The dexterity is the other direction just as a guay, >but instead of inside, you catch on toe. The paradox dexterity is done, >the catch should not mattter (You can evben catch on outside for all I >care and call it a donkey's tail). If you say that catching it on >inside = 3 adds, I say catching it on outside, or toe = 3 adds. Yup, paradox around-the-world = 3 adds. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 15:46:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA16794 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA16790 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:20 GMT Received: from mdong@emuvax.emich.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16787) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA16785 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:20 GMT Received: from laurel.emich.edu (laurel.emich.edu [164.76.4.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA25079 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:47:18 -0700 Received: from EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU by EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-6 #16909) id <01IAPJBTULR4935P3F@EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU> for FREESTYLE@FOOTBAG.ORG; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "MICHAEL J. DONG" Subject: [freestyle] dexterity To: FREESTYLE@footbag.org Message-id: <01IAPJBTVHRM935P3F@EMUVAX.EMICH.EDU> X-VMS-To: FREESTYLE@FOOTBAG.ORG MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have the freestyle moves list and I have a few questions regarding it. Mainly, I was wondering if the circling motion is on the x axis, or the z axis of the footbag, or what. I go to Eastern Michigan University in Michigan. I mainly freestyle and am always looking for someone to hack with in the area. I live in Northville. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 16:35:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA16926 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:35:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA16625 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:36:08 GMT Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:41:16 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not a body add. Here's why: Legacy. When paradox was first invented (and paradox mirage was the only move out there), it was explained to me as a dexterity. You basically had to do a dexterity around your support leg to get in position to do a dexterity around the footbag. All the justifications for calling it a body add always seem like the cart leading the horse. Paradox moves are rooted in motions you are doing with your feet and legs; the upper body or torso twisting is really incidental to a dexterous motion of the feet. With Pdx whirls and Pdx-Rev-Mirages, you could also view the paradox as a second 'upside down' dexterity - i.e. your foot has to follow a constrained path and intersect the path between footbag and contact point. Of course, that opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Just a tiny alternate reality that some will hopefully consider... Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 16:35:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA16943 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:35:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA16581 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:24:20 GMT Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:29:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Paradox whirls and paradox reverse mirages are difficult for what happens after you do the dexterity. They are essentially 'window problems' where you must pass your dexterity foot back under the bag and between the bag and the stalling foot. Paradox mirages and paradox ATW's are difficult for what happens before you do the dexterity. Even though they are all called paradox, the difficulty that gets an extra add are quite different for separate cases. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 17:07:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17099 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:07:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17095 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:07:51 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17092) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17090 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:07:51 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA25915 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:08:45 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NAA26153; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:08:19 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:03:56 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] What's a voodoo Message-ID: <19961016.130733.24694.0.dervish@juno.com> References: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,12-15 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 mstrong@ix.netcom.com writes: >Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're >at it, >could you count out >the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). > >thanks, matt > > Sure. imagine if you will, me- setting a paradox mirage, but instead of the toe delay I pull a symposium and make the catch on the original setting foot. I would call this 'frontside pdx backside symposium mirage'. Now pull this out of a pogo set and you've successfully hit pogo voodoo. Pogo(2) pdx(1) symposium(1)dex(2) delay(1). From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 17:14:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17131 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:14:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17127 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:14:38 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17124) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17122 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:14:38 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA26033 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:15:35 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA04660 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:03:48 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:41 AM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not >a body add. Here's why: I can't believe it, either, Derrick, but I agree with you here as well. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 17:55:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17264 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:55:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA17260 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:55:46 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17257) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17255 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:55:45 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA26498 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:56:43 -0700 Received: from gold.missouri.edu (gold.missouri.edu [128.206.2.3]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA81852; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:56:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by gold.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA101282; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:56:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: gold.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:56:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@gold.missouri.edu To: "Steven L. Goldberg" cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote > > > Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity (paradox > style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This is > very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body > component on the pick-up.> > It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > > Steve I definitely agree with you. I do the same move except that I catch it on the toe of the setting foot. I also do this with a mirage in front of it so as to make it a blur, but you catch it on the set to instead of the frontside miraging toe. I've heard it called a 'slur'. joe Marschall Columbia, MO. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:01:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17287 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:01:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17283 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:01:38 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17280) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17278 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:01:37 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26631 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:02:34 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OAA12192; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:02:04 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:59:15 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Message-ID: <19961016.140012.3286.2.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-18,20-22 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:41:16 -0500 "Derrick G. Fogle" writes: >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, >not a body add. Here's why: > >You basically had to do a dexterity around your support >leg to get in position to do a dexterity around the footbag. >Paradox moves are rooted in motions you are doing with >your feet and legs; the upper body or torso twisting is >really incidental to a dexterous motion of the feet. Cool. Fine. Great. >With Pdx whirls and Pdx-Rev-Mirages, you could also view the paradox >as a second 'upside down' dexterity - i.e. your foot has to follow a >constrained path and intersect the path between footbag and contact >point. Of course, that opens a whole 'nother can of worms. > Okay, I believe this lends creedence to my pdx-reverse idea. I mean, it's only a variation on the mirage from clipper, just circling from outside-to-in. It is more difficult than sameside-butterfly, which is of course 3 add. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:03:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17304 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:03:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17300 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:03:47 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17297) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17295 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:03:47 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26659 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:04:42 -0700 Received: from gold.missouri.edu (gold.missouri.edu [128.206.2.3]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA37338; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:04:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by gold.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA96150; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:04:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: gold.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:04:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@gold.missouri.edu To: Josh Penney cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate In-Reply-To: <19961015.172109.3526.1.dervish@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Josh Penney wrote: > I don't mind blizzard getting four adds, but , like, what's up wit dat? > Is this true? why? Blizzard: 2 dexterities, toe catch. where is fourth add? Is it the cross over Scott mentioned in reply to Derrick Fogle about controversial Paradox guay? Is the 2nd dexterity seen as reverse paradox? I'm so confused! joe marschall. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:17:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17349 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:17:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17345 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:17:11 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17342) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17340 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:17:10 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26806 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:18:04 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA05523 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19961016.140012.3286.2.dervish@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:18:54 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] Re: More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: >Okay, I believe this lends creedence to my pdx-reverse idea. >I mean, it's only a variation on the mirage from clipper, just circling >from outside-to-in. >It is more difficult than sameside-butterfly, which is of course 3 add. Nuh-uh. Reverse-mirage-from-clipper is a 2-add move. Paradox reverse mirage requires your setting leg to do the S motion which defines paradox dexterities. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 18:53:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17458 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:53:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA17454 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:53:20 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17451) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17449 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:53:20 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA27314 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:54:08 -0700 Received: from [17.127.19.234] ([17.127.19.234]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA05923 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:54:57 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey freestylers, I was just talking with someone today about Ben Job's amazing article he posted to the listserve almost exactly a year ago -- in it, he described a notation for moves that makes it ultra easy to analyze them, explain them, and write them down. I believe this could be a basis for assigning difficulty ratings to tricks, as well as just a very good way for us to discuss freestyle moves on this list. So, I'm resending it here -- read below. Please try to understand it; it's not that complicated and I think it really will help us! Ben, you're amazing. For those of you who don't know Ben, he's a student at Univ. Colorado Boulder, and a friend of Daryl Genz -- he is an accomplished shredder, though he doesn't like to brag about it. :-) --- Here's what he wrote last year; I think you will be blown away -- I certainly was: Originally-From: BJ (now job@benji.colorado.edu) Original-Subject: By the Way, Not the Name Originally-To: footbag@footbag.org Original-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 02:16:38 -0700 (MST) Here's some food for thought... Feedback is welcome, particularly in regard to the names in the list. Try the "complete" list... Benjamin Job A List By the Way This paper presents a notation for describing footbag tricks and representing the relationships that exist between them. Additionally, it presents the means for generating a comprehensive list of possible variations. Break a trick down. You get a series of movements preceeded by a set and followed by a catch (or kick). The set and catch options are few and easily listable. The series of movements, though allowing of more variation, are similarly listable. Represented as a formula, this information provides us with the means to logically generate trick variations. As the precision of the formula increases, that is, as more of the finite number of basic movements are incorperated into the formula, we approach the specification of every trick possible. Consider the following: (toe | clip) > [(same | op)(in | out)dexterity]* > (same | op)(toe | clip) The notation is as follows: "Same" and "op" are always relative to the leg previously refered to. "In" and "out" mean "inside" and "outside", respec- tively. "|" is equiv. to "choice" ("or"). "[ ]" means "enclosed dex is optional". ">" is equiv. to "followed by". "*" means the preceding term can occur/re-occur 0 or more times. From this simple formula, most non-modified leg dexterities can be derived. Because of the structure of the formula, a "truth table" of moves can be gen- erated, leaving no move undiscovered (ex., see list). Some examples: clip > op clip Clipper to Clipper toe > op in dex > op toe Mirage clip > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Paradox Dbl Legover clip > op in dex > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Flurry How far can we go? Only slight modifications are needed to account for other modifiers and their associated possibilities. For example, Pogo, Symposium, Spinning, ang Gyro moves can be formed by adding "(no plant while)" and "(forward | backward)spin". The formula, (toe | clip) > [(no plant while)] [(same | op)(in | out)dexterity | (for | back)spin]* > (same | op)(toe | clip) describes variations such as: clip > (no plant while) op in dex > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Pogo Paradox Symposium Blur The set and catch options can be filled in with all the choices: inside, outside, knee, the unsual surfaces. What elements that may comprise a trick have yet to be accounted for? Just a few: stomping ["(both legs plant)"], blind, hop-over, carry (Wrap), duck, dive, jumping/flying, Swirl/Twirl cross- body dex, swing (Pendulum, Rake). Not many other types of primitive movements exist. Since the acceptable tricks are just combinations of these primitives; and since each primitive may be easily implemented within the formula; the the possibility of a master formula for all tricks becomes complete. ----- A(Partial)LBTW Note: "same", "op" and "no plant" are relative to the leg previously refered to. This is a partial listing covering some 2 dexterity (min.) moves set and caught from toe or clipper. toe > same in dex > same in dex > same toe Double Around-the-World toe > same in dex > same in dex > op toe Double switchover? toe > same in dex > same in dex > same clip Pixie Double Drifter toe > same in dex > same in dex > op clip toe > same in dex > same out dex > same toe toe > same in dex > same out dex > op toe toe > same in dex > same out dex > same clip toe > same in dex > same out dex > op clip toe > same in dex > op in dex > same toe toe > same in dex > op in dex > op toe Pixie Blur toe > same in dex > op in dex > same clip Pixie Blurry Drifter toe > same in dex > op in dex > op clip Pixie Blurry Whirl toe > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Pixie Double Legover toe > same in dex > op out dex > op toe Pixie Blizzard toe > same in dex > op out dex > same clip toe > same in dex > op out dex > op clip Pixie Ripwalk toe > same out dex > same out dex > same toe Double Out Around-world toe > same out dex > same out dex > op toe Double switchover? toe > same out dex > same out dex > same clip toe > same out dex > same out dex > op clip Double Over Down toe > same out dex > same in dex > same toe toe > same out dex > same in dex > op toe toe > same out dex > same in dex > same clip toe > same out dex > same in dex > op clip toe > same out dex > op in dex > same toe toe > same out dex > op in dex > op toe toe > same out dex > op in dex > same clip toe > same out dex > op in dex > op clip toe > same out dex > op out dex > same toe Pixie-like Eggbeater toe > same out dex > op out dex > op toe Pixie-like Omelette toe > same out dex > op out dex > same clip toe > same out dex > op out dex > op clip toe > op in dex > same in dex > same toe Switch-foot Double toe > op in dex > same in dex > op toe Toe Barrage toe > op in dex > same in dex > same clip Toe Double Drifter toe > op in dex > same in dex > op clip Toe Double Whirl toe > op in dex > same out dex > same toe toe > op in dex > same out dex > op toe toe > op in dex > same out dex > same clip toe > op in dex > same out dex > op clip toe > op in dex > op in dex > same toe toe > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Toe Blur toe > op in dex > op in dex > same clip Toe Blurry Drifter toe > op in dex > op in dex > op clip Toe Blurry Whirl toe > op in dex > op out dex > same toe Double Legover toe > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Toe Blizzard toe > op in dex > op out dex > same clip toe > op in dex > op out dex > op clip Toe Ripwalk toe > op out dex > same out dex > same toe Switch-foot Double toe > op out dex > same out dex > op toe toe > op out dex > same out dex > same clip toe > op out dex > same out dex > op clip Paradon / Dbl Butterfly toe > op out dex > same in dex > same toe toe > op out dex > same in dex > op toe toe > op out dex > same in dex > same clip toe > op out dex > same in dex > op clip toe > op out dex > op in dex > same toe toe > op out dex > op in dex > op toe toe > op out dex > op in dex > same clip toe > op out dex > op in dex > op clip toe > op out dex > op out dex > same toe Eggbeater toe > op out dex > op out dex > op toe Omelette toe > op out dex > op out dex > same clip toe > op out dex > op out dex > op clip Symposium toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op toe Symposium Mirage toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op clip Symposium Whirl toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op toe Symp Reverse Mirage toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op clip Symposium Butterfly toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Pixie Symp Mirage toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip Pixie Symp Whirl toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe Px Sym Rev Mirage toe > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip Px Symp Butterfly toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe toe > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Symp Toe Blur toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip Blurry Symp Whirl toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe Symp Toe Blizzard toe > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe toe > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same toe toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Symp Toe Blur toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same toe toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Symp Blizzard toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > same toe toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op toe toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > same toe Symp Eggbeater toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op toe Symp Omelette toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > same clip toe > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op clip clip > same in dex > same in dex > same toe clip > same in dex > same in dex > op toe Pdx Barrage(?) clip > same in dex > same in dex > same clip Pdx Double Drifter clip > same in dex > same in dex > op clip clip > same in dex > same out dex > same toe clip > same in dex > same out dex > op toe clip > same in dex > same out dex > same clip clip > same in dex > same out dex > op clip clip > same in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > same in dex > op in dex > op toe Pdx Blur clip > same in dex > op in dex > same clip Pdx Blurry Drifter clip > same in dex > op in dex > op clip Pdx Blurry Whirl clip > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Pdx Double Legover clip > same in dex > op out dex > op toe Pdx Blizzard clip > same in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > same in dex > op out dex > op clip Pdx Ripwalk clip > same out dex > same out dex > same toe Double Pickup clip > same out dex > same out dex > op toe clip > same out dex > same out dex > same clip clip > same out dex > same out dex > op clip Barfly clip > same out dex > same in dex > same toe clip > same out dex > same in dex > op toe clip > same out dex > same in dex > same clip clip > same out dex > same in dex > op clip clip > same out dex > op in dex > same toe clip > same out dex > op in dex > op toe clip > same out dex > op in dex > same clip clip > same out dex > op in dex > op clip clip > same out dex > op out dex > same toe Clip set Eggbeater clip > same out dex > op out dex > op toe Clip set Omelette clip > same out dex > op out dex > same clip clip > same out dex > op out dex > op clip clip > op in dex > same in dex > same toe Double Pickup clip > op in dex > same in dex > op toe Barrage clip > op in dex > same in dex > same clip Double Drifter clip > op in dex > same in dex > op clip Double Whirl clip > op in dex > same out dex > same toe clip > op in dex > same out dex > op toe clip > op in dex > same out dex > same clip clip > op in dex > same out dex > op clip clip > op in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Blur clip > op in dex > op in dex > same clip Blurry Drifter clip > op in dex > op in dex > op clip Blurry Whirl clip > op in dex > op out dex > same toe Double Legover clip > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Blizzard clip > op in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > op in dex > op out dex > op clip Ripwalk clip > op out dex > same out dex > same toe clip > op out dex > same out dex > op toe clip > op out dex > same out dex > same clip clip > op out dex > same out dex > op clip Double Butterfly clip > op out dex > same in dex > same toe clip > op out dex > same in dex > op toe clip > op out dex > same index > same clip clip > op out dex > same in dex > op clip clip > op out dex > op in dex > same toe clip > op out dex > op in dex > op toe clip > op out dex > op in dex > same clip clip > op out dex > op in dex > op clip clip > op out dex > op out dex > same toe Clip set Eggbeater clip > op out dex > op out dex > op toe Clip set Omelette clip > op out dex > op out dex > same clip clip > op out dex > op out dex > op clip Pogo clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Pogo Blur clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > same clip Pogo Pdx Drifter clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op clip Pogo Pdx Whirl clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same toe Pogo Legover clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Pogo Blizzard clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op clip Pogo Infinity Symposium clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op clip Symp Butterfly clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe clip > same in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe clip > same out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe Symp Blur clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip Blurry Symp Whirl clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe Symp Blizzard clip > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip Dada Curve clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op toe clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op in dex > op clip clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op toe clip > op out dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op in dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op in dex > op out dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op in dex > op clip clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op toe clip > (no plant while) > op out dex > op out dex > op clip clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > same toe Gyro Dbl Pickup clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > op toe Gyro Barrage clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > same clip clip > (back)spin > same in dex > same in dex > op clip Gyro Dbl Whirl clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > same toe clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > op toe Gyro Blur clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > same clip Gyro Blry Drifter clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op in dex > op clip Gyro Blury Whirl clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > same toe Gyro Dbl Legovr clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > op toe Gyro Blizzard clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > same clip clip > (back)spin > same in dex > op out dex > op clip Gyro Ripwalk From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 19:34:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA17544 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA17540 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:56 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17537) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA17535 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:56 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA27795 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:34:45 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PAB07753; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:30:45 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:14:27 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re: More Paradox debate Message-ID: <19961016.152219.9206.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,12,14-16 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Okay, I believe this lends creedence to my pdx-reverse idea. >>I mean, it's only a variation on the mirage from clipper, just >>circling from outside-to-in. >>It is more difficult than sameside-butterfly, which is of course 3 >>add. >Nuh-uh. Reverse-mirage-from-clipper is a 2-add move. Paradox reverse >mirage requires your setting leg to do the S motion which defines >paradox >dexterities. > That's more like an upside down 'gamma' than any kind of 's I ever heard of. And the reverse-from-clipper requires the same kind of twist and shift that's in pdx-reverse. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:26:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17635 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17631 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:42 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17628) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17626 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:42 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28348 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:26:30 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA06830 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19961016.152219.9206.1.dervish@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:28:39 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 4:14 PM -0700 10/16/96, Josh Penney wrote: >>Nuh-uh. Reverse-mirage-from-clipper is a 2-add move. Paradox reverse >>mirage requires your setting leg to do the S motion which defines >>paradox >>dexterities. >> >That's more like an upside down 'gamma' than any kind of 's I ever heard >of. >And the reverse-from-clipper requires the same kind of twist and shift >that's in pdx-reverse. Yeah, my mistake. I didn't mean S. In fact, I meant the sideways "alpha" motion. (See the PS below for a graph.) I think we should decide if we agree or not whether paradox is just the S motion, and if the "alpha" motion is something different (as opposed to just the logical reverse of the S motion for reverse paradox dexterities). We also need to decide that, if S and alpha are different enough, whether or not alpha moves deserve an extra add. Of course, the problem here is the alpha moves, not the S moves. Examples of S moves are all in-out paradox dexterities -- i.e., paradox mirage, paradox whirl, paradox guay :-), paradox drifter, etc. Examples of "alpha" moves are all out-in so-called "paradox" dexterities -- i.e., "paradox" reverse mirage, (front-side) "paradox" (backside) symposium reverse mirage, etc. Examples of "alpha" moves not currently thought to be "paradox" are: reverse mirage, butterfly, barfly, etc. I don't know how to reconcile the "alpha" moves; perhaps the motion of the dexterity is not the key after all. I know for sure an S move when I see it, though, and that leads me back to my original argument that paradox guay is definitely paradox, beyond a shadow of a doubt. If folks don't agree with this, then we have to get down and dirty about each case individually -- first, let's discuss in-out dexterities and what makes them "paradox". Then, in a separate thread, let's discuss out-in dexterities. I don't see how we can argue both at the same time. Steve P.S. "Bubba" is the name for the clipper-set reverse-mirage which is not thought by anyone to be paradox, just FYI. P.P.S Here's an S motion dexterity: Here's an "alpha" dexterity: --- --- | | | --- \ / | + --- / \ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:30:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17669 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:29:26 GMT Message-Id: <199610162014.NAA28216@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-62.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA233376608; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:10:08 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:02:52 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Hey freestylers, I was just talking with someone today about Ben Job's >amazing article he posted to the listserve almost exactly a year ago -- in I still have a copy of the original posting, in fact (it was mailed on Halloween, scahhrry). Even though I was only just getting started in freestyle at that time, I thought it was a very terse yet elegant way to describe just about anything (and should reduce confusion, if used correctly). I'm kind of surprised it's not used as a standard already, but I for one am ready to adopt it. I'd like to further propose [if I may be so bold] that combos be notated by a ">>" between each move. This certainly isn't necessary, but seems easier on the eyes to see at-a-glance where each move ends (without having to start on a separate line or otherwise comment on it, plus you only have to indicate the catch foot once). For example, I enjoy hitting Paradon into Barrage: toe > op out dex > same out dex > op clip >> op in dex > same in dex > op toe Bad idea? More confusing than listing them separately? -- Ernest M. Crvich Durham, NC, USA, Earth Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:39:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17728 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:39:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17724 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:39:03 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17721) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17719 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:38:58 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28492 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:39:29 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id OAA09558; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:49:01 -0600 Message-ID: <32654A3B.41C67EA6@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:48:59 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] What's a voodoo References: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> <19961016.130733.24694.0.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:46:56 -0700 mstrong@ix.netcom.com writes: > >Could someone please explain to me what a voodoo is, and while we're > >at it, > >could you count out > >the adds for a pogo voodoo (7 adds). > > > >thanks, matt > > > > > Sure. > imagine if you will, me- setting a paradox mirage, but instead of the toe > delay I pull a symposium and make the catch on the original setting foot. > I would call this 'frontside pdx backside symposium mirage'. > Now pull this out of a pogo set and you've successfully hit pogo voodoo. > Pogo(2) pdx(1) symposium(1)dex(2) delay(1). Hey, that's cool. I used to call that a paradox symposium blur (which really doesn't make sense) - I like voodoo better. I never even thought of trying it pogo - sounds fun! Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:44:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17756 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17752 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:20 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17749) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17747 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:20 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28590 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:08 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA07022 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32654A3B.41C67EA6@bechtel.Colorado.edu> References: <199610911312441@ix.netcom.com> <19961016.130733.24694.0.dervish@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:47:23 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] What's a voodoo Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:48 PM -0700 10/16/96, Genz Daryl S wrote: >Hey, that's cool. I used to call that a paradox symposium blur (which >really doesn't make sense) - I like voodoo better. Yeah, Tuan used to call it the PSB (paradox symposium blur). Then folks started calling it the Voodoo because it was the Do that Vu do so well. I actually made up the name, if I remember correctly. So of course I like it. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 20:45:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17773 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:45:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17769 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:59 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17766) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA17764 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:44:59 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28595 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:40 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id OAA09564; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:56:45 -0600 Message-ID: <32654C0C.167EB0E7@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:56:44 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > > At 7:41 AM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: > >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not > >a body add. Here's why: > > I can't believe it, either, Derrick, but I agree with you here as well. > > Steve Hummm, it looks like I disagree with two of the most opinionated people on the list. You've got a pretty strong argument, but I just can't swallow that worm. OK, I agree paradox is always going to be relative to some dexterity - but that doesn't mean it should be considered a dexterity! I guess the reason I don't see paradox as a dexterity is because of the way I think of (i.e. my humble definition of) dexterity - you get a dexterity add when your leg circles the bag. (PERIOD). If your leg circles twice, you get two dexterity adds - it doesn't matter which way you circle it or what happens before or after, you get the dexterity add when you circle the bag. A paradox mirage only has one dexterity - thus, you can only get one dexterity add! The paradox add should go into the BODY category. Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:00:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17831 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:00:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17827 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:00:42 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17824) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17822 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:00:42 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA28818 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:01:29 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09575; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:11:32 -0600 Message-ID: <32654F83.446B9B3D@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:11:31 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ernest Crvich CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name References: <199610162014.NAA28216@Market.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ernest Crvich wrote: > [snip] > For example, I enjoy hitting Paradon into Barrage: > [snip] > Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:03:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17852 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:03:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17848 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:03:29 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17845) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17843 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:03:28 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA28836 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:04:14 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA14621 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:16:54 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBBB7C.2A852BD0@www.lanit.com>; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:07:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Parad Aaaugh! x Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:07:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve's right, the s-motion and alpha-motion (until now I had no name for that) that are both called paradox are really completely separate issues. Maybe we can name the alpha-style paradoxes zodaraps :) And I said that the idea of saying zodaraps were upside-down dexterities was a whole 'nother can of worms. Looks like I was right. There is really very little difference between 1) left x-bdy inside set > left out-in dex > right toe stall and 2) rght x-bdy inside set > (same as above) There's also the whole question of things like regular whirls falling under this category (more adds, yes!). Sorry I mentioned it . Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:10:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17885 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:10:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17881 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:10:14 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17878) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17876 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:10:13 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA28954 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:10:56 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA14908 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:23:45 -0500 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBBB7D.1F4B1120@www.lanit.com>; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:14:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:14:34 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Daryl has a point: my conceptualization requires a slight modification to the definition of dexterity to include more than just passing your leg or foot over or around the footbag. But then again, defining dexterities as dexterous motions of feet or leg (whether or not the bag is being circled) still seems more straightforward than trying to define body moves to include that funky paradox thang. The soup's getting thicker... Kinda chewey now... Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com >---------- >From: Genz Daryl S[SMTP:genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU] >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 1996 3:56 PM >To: Steven L. Goldberg >Cc: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: Re: [freestyle] More Paradox debate > >Steven L. Goldberg wrote: >> >> At 7:41 AM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >> >Being the crazy nut that I am, I still view paradox as a dexterity, not >> >a body add. Here's why: >> >> I can't believe it, either, Derrick, but I agree with you here as well. >> >> Steve > >Hummm, it looks like I disagree with two of the most opinionated people >on >the list. You've got a pretty strong argument, but I just can't >swallow >that worm. > >OK, I agree paradox is always going to be relative to some dexterity - >but >that doesn't mean it should be considered a dexterity! I guess the >reason >I don't see paradox as a dexterity is because of the way I think of >(i.e. my humble definition of) dexterity - you get a dexterity add when > >your leg circles the bag. (PERIOD). If your leg circles twice, you get >two dexterity adds - it doesn't matter which way you circle it or what >happens before or after, you get the dexterity add when you circle the >bag. > >A paradox mirage only has one dexterity - thus, you can only get one >dexterity add! The paradox add should go into the BODY category. > >Genzu > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:21:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17939 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:21:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17935 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:21:58 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17932) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17930 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:21:58 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29081 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:22:35 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QAB28965; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:47:21 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:51:09 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name Message-ID: <19961016.155110.9206.6.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5,7-14,16-23,25-27 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Hey freestylers, I was just talking with someone today about Ben Job's >amazing article he posted to the listserve almost exactly a year ago >-- in it, he described a notation for moves that makes it ultra easy to >analyze them, explain them, and write them down. I believe this could be a >basis for assigning difficulty ratings to tricks, as well as just a very >good way for us to discuss freestyle moves on this list. >Consider the following: > (toe | clip) > [(same | op)(in | out)dexterity]* > > (same | op)(toe | clip) Okay, So I like it. I'm hip. I got no problems with it. But what's the difference between: clip > op out dex > op clip Same side butterfly and clip > op out dex > op clip reverse whirl oh, and incidentally; clip > op out dex > op toe reverse mirage from clipper or reverse pdx mirage? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:24:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17964 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:24:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA17960 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:24:11 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17957) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17955 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:24:11 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29101 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:24:50 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09582; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:35:52 -0600 Message-ID: <32655536.794BDF32@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:35:50 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] By the Way, Not the Name References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > [snip] > > For those of you who don't know Ben, he's a student at Univ. Colorado > Boulder, and a friend of Daryl Genz -- he is an accomplished shredder, > though he doesn't like to brag about it. :-) > [snip] > Actually, he just graduated this summer. And, he may not like to brag, but I'll do it for him. I guess the best statement to his freestyle accomplishments would have to be that Ben hit his first SEVEN add move before he had been playing for one year! Thats faster than anyone I've ever heard of. It took me 7 years to hit mine (my first was last Sunday (ok so I'll brag about myself a little too ;->). But I have to say for the old-skoolers like Rippin', that when they started, there was no such thing as a 7 add move - had there been, he probably would have hit it within his first year too. Anyway, I knew this move list would be resurrected someday, and I'm glad it finally came back. I think it's going to be the future in defining tricks and maybe even adds. There's got to be some way we can use this system and come up with adds out of the move based on pure logic - not baised arguments. The beauty of this system is that it can (with a few additions) describe (just about) EVERY move. And, if poeple can agree on some logical way of converting those move descriptions directly to adds, I think we'll settle a lot of disputes. As of yet, I havn't done a lot of thinking about it, but it may even be that his system will help us to define that elusive paradox. Sadly, after thinking about it, it looks like that damn guay might end up paradox - so we might have to make some exceptions. ;-> Later, Daryl Genz From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:25:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18005 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18001 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:27 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17998) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA17996 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:27 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29118 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:26:03 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id OAA09569; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:59:27 -0600 Message-ID: <32654CAD.2781E494@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:59:26 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Marschall CC: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Joe Marschall wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steven L. Goldberg wrote > > > > > > Set from a cross-body delay into a setting-leg in-out dexterity (paradox > > style) in front of you into an inside delay with the setting leg. This is > > very similar to "paradox drifter" except for the missing cross-body > > component on the pick-up.> > > It's a paradox move, no matter how you slice it. Tell me why it isn't. > > > > > Steve I definitely agree with you. I do the same move except that I catch > it on the toe of the setting foot. I also do this with a mirage in front > of it so as to make it a blur, but you catch it on the set to instead of > the frontside miraging toe. I've heard it called a 'slur'. > > joe Marschall > Columbia, MO. I don't want to touch this argument, but what's up Joe?! I didn't even know you were on the list. Way cool. Daryl Genz I still only see 2 adds. ;-> From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:25:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18022 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18018 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:36 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18015) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18013 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:35 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [198.82.210.13]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29122 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:26:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199610162126.OAA29122@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich (rad-dhcp-62.giv.com) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA243631188; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:26:28 -0400 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:19:12 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] Named Combos Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one >of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". Cool. Besides this and Infinity, what else is there, just out of curiousity? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:34:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18081 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:34:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18077 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:34:34 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18074) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18072 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:34:34 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29236 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:35:08 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09588 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:33 -0600 Message-ID: <326557B8.15FB7483@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:46:32 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Paradox? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up FREESTYLERS?! Before starting, I just want to say that this list is awesome now that we got rid of those damn net players! ;-> And now, here's a move that will make your brain smoke for a while. I'm just throwing it out there because I think it may lead some new insight into just what paradox is, or isn't. Rippin has siad it's not paradox, and Kenny has siad it is... so what do you think? (Isn't it ironic, don't you think ;->) Move: Setting from rt. foot clip., spin clockwise about 270 degrees, then perform an in-out (c-clockwise) mirage with the left leg, ending on a right toe. So, is it a spinning mirage, or a spinning paradox mirage? 3 or 4 adds? Later, Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:47:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18171 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:47:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18167 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:47:15 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18164) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18162 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:47:14 GMT Received: from enesco.Colorado.EDU (enesco.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.82]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29389 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:47:46 -0700 Received: from enesco (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enesco.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA09593; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:59:09 -0600 Message-ID: <32655AAC.59E2B600@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:59:08 -0600 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ernest Crvich CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Named Combos References: <199610162126.OAA29122@Market.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ernest Crvich wrote: > > >Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one > >of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". > > Cool. Besides this and Infinity, what else is there, just out of > curiousity? Umm, I can think of a few: Torsion = Torque to Paradox Torque Whirling Dervish (sp?) = (I think?) pendulum set, gyro-miraging rake (note there's no whirl ... it came before whirl was invented) and of course: Genzu = Paradox Torque to Paradox Torque (coined by Rippin) There's probably a few more out there, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Anyone? .... Anyone?? Later, Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 21:50:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18191 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:50:04 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA18187 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:50:04 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18184) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA18182 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:50:03 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA29478 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:50:30 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA07870 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610162126.OAA29122@Market.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:52:57 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Named Combos Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:19 PM -0700 10/16/96, Ernest Crvich wrote: >>Here's a little freestyle trivia. Paradon to barrage is one >>of the very few combos that has a name, it's called a "Fiesta". > > Cool. Besides this and Infinity, what else is there, just out of >curiousity? Here are a few (including the ones you mentioned): fiesta = paradon >> barrage infinity = butterfly >> opposite butterfly >> repeat whirling dirvish = pendulum >> cross-body rake (same leg) winter solstice = sole delay >> cross-body back-side rake (w/sole foot) probe = back-of-neck delay >> blind cross body delay anal probe = back-of-neck delay >> blind diffraction mechanosis = pincher >> torque I'm sure there're more. These days folks don't like to name combos as much -- makes it confusing for folks who don't get the idea that a trick and a combo are two different things. I'm sure there are more old-skool combos with names than new-skool. I just don't know enough about the old-skool. :-) Heh heh. Okay, fine, I'm still old-skool. :-) But I hit my first Blur two weeks ago; I hit it five times yesterday. So maybe some day I'll catch up with the nuSkool before it's too late :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:14:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18288 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18284 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:39 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18281) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18279 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:39 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29752 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:15:10 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA07494 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:00 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: RE: [freestyle] More Paradox debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:14 PM -0700 10/16/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >Daryl has a point Yup, I agree. I guess I was saying it is a "modifier" as opposed to an "add category". The category it *modifies* is dexterity. But modifiers and categories still count as adds. We have to be careful anyway with the way we talk about adds versus add categories; and if we add a concept like add "modifier" it may get more complicated than it already is or should be. This language needs to be cleaned up, or better yet, we just need a new system. Look at Ben Job's message and you'll see there may be an easy way to just assigning difficulty based on number of ">"s or something like that. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:17:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18315 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:17:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18311 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:17:39 GMT Received: from danzilla@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18308) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18306 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:17:38 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA29770 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:18:02 -0700 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 16 Oct 1996 22:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 16 Oct 1996 22:16:20 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-41-9.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.121]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA00823 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:16:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:16:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199610162216.RAA00823@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu (Dan Sharber) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >It doesn't really matter what you *think* a paradox move should involve. A >paradox move *is* a move in which the dexterity leg travels the *long way >around* the bag. That's Kenny's definition and I think it's right. I >mean, would you argue with the MASTER? Right on. I like the "long way around definition because it cover both regukar and reverse mirages as paradox. On the reverse the leg must travel the "lomg way around" to get to the catch. Dan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:25:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18359 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18355 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:02 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18352) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18350 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:01 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29873 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:25:27 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d112.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.112]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA29943; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:25:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:27:48 -0500 To: Joe Marschall , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Great Paradox Debate Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Joe and fellow freestylers! >Blizzard: 2 dexterities, toe catch. where is fourth add? The second dex is paradox. NQAI (No Question About It) Period. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 16 22:25:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18376 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18372 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:06 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18369) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18367 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:25:05 GMT Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29878 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:25:34 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.112] (d112.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.112]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id RAA29950; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:26:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:28:01 -0500 To: Joe Marschall , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] The Grea