From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Nov 1 18:53:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA27611 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:52:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA27607 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:52:40 GMT Received: from dk713994@oak.cats.ohiou.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27604) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA27602 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:52:36 GMT Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA04626 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:54:17 -0700 Received: from localhost by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA21391; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:00:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:00:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Darren R. Kautz" To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Cc: freestyle@footbag.org, TJ Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox -- toe set In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have never been under the impression that a blur from a toe set is paradox. I personally don't think that it has anything to do with paradox. While it is admittedly hard, I've always just assumed that it was three adds. It will be a cold day in hell when someone convinces me that you can do any paradox move from any set other than a cross-body. \ O Darren O / \ /\ Russell - /- . | \ Kautz / \ | From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Nov 1 19:14:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA27751 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:14:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA27747 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:14:52 GMT Received: from elklein@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27744) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27742 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:14:52 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA04860 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:16:33 -0700 Received: (from elklein@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id OAA26243 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:17:15 -0500 (EST) From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:17:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611011917.OAA26243@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Deep thoughts To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:17:15 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > > Hello, A friend of mine and I were brainstorming yesterday, in an attempt > to come up with 4 or 5 add moves that didn't include any dexterities. > The only ones we came up with were spinning/gyro flying flapper, > spinning/gyro > cross-body sole stall, spinning/gyro pinching eclipse (don't know if this > can be done), double spinning/gyro clipper, gyrating diving clipper, > ducking/diving cross body sole, ducking/diving dragon, > > Questions this raises: > -do duck and dive count as dexterities? > -does dive get one more add than duck? > -Is a trick that begins by turning into the clipper set, and completes a > 360 degree rotation, referred to as "spinning" or "in-spin" or what? > -I'm referring here to the opposite of gyrating. > -Are people that pull dragons human? > -Or are their ankles made of silly puddy? > -How many of you have seen people pull flying stalls? (other than eclipse) > -I don't think I've ever seen it but it would be cool to do > flying clippers, which I guess would bear a resemblance to eclipses. > -What about diving, flying cross-body sole stall? > > -Side note-All you butterfly-swirlers out there, try butterfly swirl > infinities, I'm not at all close but that has got to look/feel SWEEEEET. > > Keep on Shreddin on, Ethan > > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Nov 1 19:24:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA27832 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:24:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA27828 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:24:42 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27825) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27823 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:24:41 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA04978 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:26:21 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA18492; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:25:49 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611011917.OAA26243@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:28:57 -0800 To: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Deep thoughts Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:17 AM -0800 11/1/96, Ethan L Klein wrote: >> Questions this raises: >> -do duck and dive count as dexterities? No; they are BODY moves as far as I know. I believe everyone agrees that "dexterity" is reserved for the FEET/LEGS. >> -does dive get one more add than duck? I don't know the answer. I think it's still just a body move. Some people say it's a "paradox" ducking move. If so maybe it gets two body adds? This is a good question I've been meaning to ask others. Anyone? >> -Is a trick that begins by turning into the clipper set, and completes a >> 360 degree rotation, referred to as "spinning" or "in-spin" or what? It's being called "in-spin" to clarify the direction of the spin. "Spinning" is just a little too generic these days. (Gyrating means spinning away from the set, not planting the dexterity foot, and performing a dexterity as you spin, generally. Don't hold me to this but it's the gist.) >> -Are people that pull dragons human? Yes, but barely. :-) >> -What about diving, flying cross-body sole stall? Come back down to earth now, Eth'. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Nov 1 21:24:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA28636 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:23:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA28632 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:23:36 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (28629) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA28627 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:23:32 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA06467 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:24:55 -0700 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17589; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:25:31 -0600 (CST) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id PAA10249; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:25:30 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:25:29 -0600 (CST) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Ethan L Klein cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] judging system In-Reply-To: <199610311954.OAA26005@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Ethan L Klein wrote: > Freestylers, The ongoing and sometimes tedious debate about paradoxness > has set my mind wandering about alternative judging stratagies for a > sport so amorpheous and undefinable as our beloved footbag freestyle. > > 1rst idea- have the four or five judges, instead of watching the > competitors, monitor and record the number and degree of jaw-droppage > amond the crowd. He/She who instigates the most net jaw droppage wins > the contest. Hmmmm....I see some merits to this. Can I invite my whole family? > > 2nd idea- No differentiation between places, everyone splits the prize > money and everyone wins. Performances are still given to impress the > crowd and fellow freestylers, but no selection of, "your the winner, your > the loser." I like this best! & this way everyone's free to develop their own style. Push that creativity! > > 3rd idea- circle up in normal circle form, which constitutes the true > nature of the sport, IMHO, and after a set time of shredding (30 minutes) > judges subjectively choose who ripped the hardest. I feel that one member > of the circle usually takes the reins on a given day and dominates. If > this doesn't happen, declare a draw. > ooh - I would do worst in this format & therefore am against it. If I think real hard I may come up with some objective reasons why it's bad, so I wouldn't have to be so honest about why I'd be against it. > 4th idea- if Carol or Sam are competing, they win. Nobody flows or > initiates awe like these two representational shredders, IMHO. Better idea - two divisions. 1. Sam & Carol 2. Everyone else > Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu sportsmom extraordinaire From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Nov 1 22:11:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA28974 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:11:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA28970 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:11:22 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (28967) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA28965 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:11:21 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA07201 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:13:01 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id RAA01220; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:13:47 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:13:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611012213.RAA01220@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Deep thoughts To: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:13:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199611011917.OAA26243@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> from "Ethan L Klein" at Nov 1, 96 02:17:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > Questions this raises: > > -do duck and dive count as dexterities? Nope, as I have learnt since my last post. > > -does dive get one more add than duck? Nope, and this comes from the king of dives himself (Right, EWers?). > > -Is a trick that begins by turning into the clipper set, and completes a > > 360 degree rotation, referred to as "spinning" or "in-spin" or what? > > -I'm referring here to the opposite of gyrating. All 360 deg moves are spins. You can do a regular spin or an in spin (one way or the other) A gyrating move is a move that is set behind your back before the move. Example: Spinning butterfly ends in the set clipper (you do 360) Gyrating butterfly ends in non-setting clipper (set, spin 180 (so the bag travels behind your back), then go back and do butterfly) Essentially spinning is flowier, because for gyrating you have to go back the other way before doing the move. > > -Are people that pull dragons human? Sunil human? That's impossible. Laters, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Nov 2 00:02:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA29748 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:02:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA29744 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:02:09 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (29741) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA29739 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:02:09 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08562 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:03:46 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-59.kode.net [206.42.219.78]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA22670 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:11:24 -0800 Message-ID: <327A8FB0.2BFB@Kode.net> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 19:02:56 -0500 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox -- toe set References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Darren R. Kautz wrote: > > I have never been under the impression that a blur from a toe set > is paradox. I personally don't think that it has anything to do with > paradox. While it is admittedly hard, I've always just assumed that it > was three adds. > It will be a cold day in hell when someone convinces me that you > can do any paradox move from any set other than a cross-body. > > \ O Darren > O / \ /\ Russell > - /- . | \ Kautz > / \ | > > > My thoughts are the same. Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Nov 2 00:03:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA29769 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:03:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA29765 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:03:52 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (29762) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA29760 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:03:51 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08572 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:05:19 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA42986 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:04:58 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:08:08 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] Type versus Difficulty Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think part of the reason for the seeming inability of our group to settle on a definition of "paradox" is that we're arguing over two different aspects, without necessarily realizing it. The two aspects I see are: * PARADOX as the name for a TYPE of move (i.e., as a modifier for existing moves, e.g. paradox *torque* or paradox *mirage*); * PARADOX as an ADDITIONAL LEVEL OF DIFFICULTY (i.e., an ADD in the rating system). I want to explain that I have no particular argument with Paul's definition of paradox as the NAME for a TYPE of move (the first bullet above) -- i.e., what makes a existing paradox move the "paradox" version of another move is essentially defined by the set in relation to the original move. I don't have a problem with this. Other examples where we do this type of naming is with terms like "blurry", "gimping", "gyrating", "flying", "spinning", "symposium", "blind", "reverse", "heely", "dragon", "in-spin", "shooting", "ducking", "diving", "pogo", etc., etc., etc. For most of the examples above, we have a pretty simple way to explain what about the move makes it fit into one of these categories, and the mapping to the add-value system is pretty obvious. What I mean to say is that, in most cases, the relationship between the NAME of the move and the DIFFICULTY ELEMENT(s) involved is obvious. But we have always kind of glossed over WHY the paradox version of a move always gets a hash-mark in an add category (whatever category is irrelevant to this particular point) above and beyond the "normal" version of the same move. The belief has always been that (for whatever reason) the "paradox" version of a move is necessarily HARDER than the non-paradox version of the same move. But really sitting down and explaining why this is the case (in terms of the existing add categories) has been very difficult and has clearly created controversy. I think the reason is apparent -- there is no "paradox" add category, and if there were one it'd be really hard to define (as evidenced by our discussions thus far on this list). What I've been driving at with these arguments and by holding my position the way I have is that we don't really seem to agree at all on this second issue -- why in particular there's an extra add for "paradox" moves. In other words, what it is about doing a paradox version of a move that really makes it harder. It's not the set; it's not the dexterity; it's not the pick-up -- I'd venture to say that it seems to be *all* of these, in combination. All I've been trying to say is that, if we really look at why paradox moves are harder (and if we can come up with a good description of paradox that's as easy as any of the descriptions for the other modifiers listed above in my examples), it'll help *us* properly understand new moves and other moves that have similar difficulties -- or to clarify why those other moves don't fit into certain paradigms. Either way, a good mapping from paradox-as-a-type-of-move to paradox-as-a-difficulty-element needs to be arrived at. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Nov 2 17:11:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA02588 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:10:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA02583 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:10:20 GMT Received: from dyun@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2580) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA02578 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:10:18 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA19898 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:12:08 -0700 Received: (from dyun@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id MAA23690 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:12:49 -0500 (EST) From: dyun@sas.upenn.edu (Dennis Yun) Posted-Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:12:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611021712.MAA23690@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] merits of ankle stretching To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:12:49 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello phreestyle phriends, The use of the 'ph' is in honor of the shred circle that I was part at the Hampton, VA Phish show last Friday. It was kind of shocking to see a circle of 6 or 7 pairs of Lavers in the Hampton Roads area (I live there). The loss of Sir Irish certainly didn't help the freestyle cause in that area... Anyway, back to my subject header. I was talking to a styler in Hampton who remarked how much his ankle flex had improved just by strecthing whenever he was sitting in a chair or whatever. Now, I've tried this before, but my ankles began to ache after a couple of days of this. Can anyone tell me the merits of this? How about advice on how to do this without causing injury? -Dennis Yun dyun@sas.upenn.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Nov 2 17:20:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA02675 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:20:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA02665 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:20:40 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2659) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA02657 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:20:40 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA20038 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:22:27 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.106] (d106.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.106]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.2/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id LAA04471; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:23:06 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:25:19 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Deep thoughts Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! >>> -does dive get one more add than duck? >I don't know the answer. I think it's still just a body move. Some people >say it's a "paradox" ducking move. If so maybe it gets two body adds? >This is a good question I've been meaning to ask others. Anyone? 1 add absolutely. Kenny and I discussed this. Although if you ask Ironman, he will say it is 2 adds. I do believe it should be considered as a unique move (duck vs. dive) which is roughly 10 times more valuable than bickering over adds. >>> -Is a trick that begins by turning into the clipper set, and completes a >>> 360 degree rotation, referred to as "spinning" or "in-spin" or what? >It's being called "in-spin" to clarify the direction of the spin. >"Spinning" is just a little too generic these days. (Gyrating means >spinning away from the set, not planting the dexterity foot, and performing >a dexterity as you spin, generally. Don't hold me to this but it's the >gist.) Good jist. I love to spin, there are many subtleties (sp?) to be certain. Many moves are called "gyro" but aren't. That bothers me, but I can't go into it now. >>> -Are people that pull dragons human? >Yes, but barely. :-) It has been suggested that the "dragon" related moves be renamed into their own convention. In other words, the cross-body outside delay moves would be starting with the "q" sound. Quipper Delay, Quifter (drifter ending in dragon, which I have hit several times but it doesn't feel natural), Qwhirl, Quosis, Flying Quipper, Spinning Quipper to name a few. That way, the moves are immediately identifyable as "cross-body outside" moves. >> -Side note-All you butterfly-swirlers out there, try butterfly swirl >> infinities, I'm not at all close but that has got to look/feel SWEEEEET. I find these are easier to do than same side butterfly swirl. We can differentiate between them here, but in the current worlds style scoring, they are identical (butterfly swirl vs. infinity swirl). In the five point shred event we would probably make the butterfly swirl weighted heavier then infinity. >>> -What about diving, flying cross-body sole stall? Ethan, I love that you are thinking about huge unusual surface delay moves. I am working on some too: Osis ending in cross-body sole delay (4 adds) Cross body pinchers (from right side to osis, from left side to L whirl.) Spinning Cross body sole delay (4 adds) Cross body clouds Pinchwalks (5 adds) Spinning Cross-body pinchers (4 adds) And for Ethan and Penn State crew, 4 add moves that don't involve dexterities, above are some good ones. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Nov 2 17:20:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA02676 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:20:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA02670 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:20:42 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2664) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA02661 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:20:40 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA20041 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:22:31 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.106] (d106.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.106]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.2/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id LAA04474; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:23:12 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:25:24 -0500 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro), freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Deep thoughts Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers and Alex! >All 360 deg moves are spins. You can do a regular spin or an in spin >(one way or the other) >A gyrating move is a move that is set behind your back before the move. >Example: > >Spinning butterfly ends in the set clipper (you do 360) >Gyrating butterfly ends in non-setting clipper (set, spin 180 (so the bag >travels behind your back), then go back and do butterfly) Spinning butterfly isn't exactly 360. Maybe 300. Gyrating butterfly (also called gyro butterfly) is done without setting your dex leg down. See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Nov 2 18:00:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02917 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 18:00:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02913 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 18:00:44 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2910) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA02908 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 18:00:43 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA20573 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:02:31 -0700 Received: from [207.70.67.106] (d106.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.106]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.2/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id MAA04986 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:03:09 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:05:22 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] Full Shred Event (no longer "5-point shred" event) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Major changes made via conversations on phone and internet email responses (underlines or strike-thru indicate changes/deletions from previous post on my master document, but those don't show up in email, so I just deleted them)... Please re-read the entire document, as there are MANY changes. Note: I have changed the name of the event to "Full Shred" event. I have tried to highlight concepts when they are mentioned for the first time by using CAPS for those words, then when they are referred to later, they are Upper and Lower Case Caps. (i.e. KICKING ORDER DRAW the first time you see it, then Kicking Order Draw as it is referred to later.) *****FULL SHRED EVENT***** Objective: To have the highest scoring strings in the event, thereby attaining the most points to win. Why do we need a new event? Freestyle players are being pulled in two directions. On one hand, the "Worlds Style" judging system asks players to mix elements of dance, choreography, variety and execution, while simultaneously penalizing them for drops. Some members of the IFAB are lobbying for stronger drop penalties, *so* heavy that one drop would predetermine that a player could not win the event. They envision 90% of all routines to be dropless, with the norm being "no-drops," as opposed to the exception. On the other hand, the shredders and BAP are pushing the edge of difficulty and forcing the level of play towards such a difficult level, that inserting these moves into strings in the "Worlds Style" system is counterproductive. It increases the probability of a drop, so the obvious result will be to "play down" to the system. And because the competitions are often what is televised (or at least heavily promoted), that will mean that the most difficult strings (often done only by players currently practicing non-competition) will be seen less often in the public eye. When the top level players get together, they NEVER practice strings that would satisfy the "Worlds Style" scoring, they show off new combos and strings. Big tricks, back to back. Bigger combinations, more honor. Guiltless is the minimum, with many players pushing the tripless edge. Many of the best freestylers in the world choose not to compete because of the apparent (inherent) focus on "fluff" and non-shredding issues in the current judging system. This new suggestion allows for a further breakdown of unique moves in terms of add value, where we can create values to the tenth of a point. For example, the family of moves currently thought of as one single move because of the philosophy of the "worlds style" system ...double-over-down, paradon, barfly and down-double-down; can now be broken down to where their add values are 4.2, 4.4, 4.6 and 4.8. The Compromise: The Full Shred event allows players a structured opportunity to compete, while not removing them from their element. The event focuses on difficulty, execution and variety, scoring players in a similar style to Olympic Diving. The scoring can be done by one or two players and is completely objective. Rewarding players for difficulty and for the ability to string moves together. Description: * Each player will perform 3 different strings of 8 contacts each. * They can use similar tricks, but no more than 2 moves in the same order in different strings. (There is more honor in variety) * The competition will consist of "warm-up" circles of 3-4 players picked by random draw. This will be called the CIRCLE DRAW. * The kicking order will be selected by a different random draw. This will be called the KICKING ORDER DRAW. * There will be a HOT SPOT near the judges, players will be called to the Hot Spot according to the Kicking Order drawn prior to starting the round. * The Hot Spot is where the strings will be performed. * Tricks are submitted in advance, and must be performed in order. * Players can stray from their submitted strings. They gain a maximum of the whole number (rounded down) for the moves they substitute into their strings, until they get back to their submitted order (limit of 8 contacts). If they get back to their submitted order, they then get full point value for the move(s). * It is recommended that video verification is used, and can even be substituted for live judging if two cameras are available for taping. * If a drop occurs during a string, it is the end of that attempt. * The first add contact is called the INITIAL SET. * The second add contact is the first trick in the players selected string (this automatically allows for a set of some kind that is not counted in the scoring... remember their is more honor with higher add initial sets). * Judges will score everything up until the end of the eight contacts or the drop that ends the string. * The player can choose to make another attempt, but the second attempt becomes the final score. Player CANNOT choose the better score if a drop also shortens the second attempt. * ADJUSTED ADDS: A fractional score will be attached to all the moves (i.e. "off the top of my head" example: Double over down = 4.2, Paradon = 4.4, Barfly = 4.6, Down Double Down = 4.8) * Judges award 1 point to each contact and track the add values of the tricks in the string. (Keep in mind that we are using adjusted add values for submitted moves and rounded down values in whole numbers for substituted moves) * Scoring is totalled by multiplying the sum of the add values by the total number of contacts. * A canonical list will be created of tricks and their Adjusted Add Value. This will be attained through discussion of top players then published on paper and on the internet. Judging (similar to diving system) * Two judges. Or Two camera videotaping with remote judging by as many judges as want to participate. * Each trick is given 1 point. 5 8 points possible from each string. * SEALING A TRICK. Points are only given when the trick is "sealed". A trick is "sealed" when the footbag makes bodily contact after the contact that finishes the trick. (The definition of "sealing" is very open to discussion). * A drop is the end of the string. Judges will score up until the drop. * The score is completely objective, so both judges will assist each other in coming to an exact score. * Example of scoring: Player called to the Hot Spot and starts kicking, then does the "Initial Set" which could be any kind of add contact, but the higher the better (there is no score given for the initial set, so "only" your honor is at stake here). In this case the Initial Set is a Butterfly, the submitted string is: (keep in mind I am using values off the top of my head for example only and am still very insistent upon discussion to determine the actual values we will use in the event): Ripwalk (4.0), Paradox Whirl (4.1), Blender (4.4), Torque (4.2), Butterfly (3.0), Paradox Whirl (4.1), Down-Double-Down (4.8), Infinity Swirl (4.3). THE FORMULA: (SUM OF ADJUSTED ADD VALUES) X NUMBER OF CONTACTS / 2 = STRING SCORE (rounded to the nearest tenth) (By dividing by two, we soften the scores so the spreads look tighter and so we don't have to deal with cumulative numbers that end up being in the multiple thousands) Player 1 (4.0 + 4.1 + 4.4 + 4.2 + 3.0 + 4.1 + 4.8 + 4.3 [32.9]) X 8 [263.2] / 2 = 131.6 Player 2 (for examples sake, lets assume the player did the same string as player 1 but missed the second and third moves and Substituted osis's at 3.0 each) (4.0 + 4.1+ 3.0 + 3.0 + 3.0 + 4.1 + 4.8 + 4.3 [30.3]) X 8 [242.4] / 2 = 121.2 Players and judges do three strings per round, the scores are entered into a computer program developed in Filemaker Pro v.1.2 for Mac by Enlightener. Computer will do all calculations. After three strings, the per-round score is added up, lets say this player scored the same on each string in this round (very unlikely), 58.82 x 3 = 176.46, that would be a very good score. Two rounds of this (one per day in a 2 day tourney) would be plenty for a good event. The second round, players cannot use any of the same strings from first round. We need to discuss if we will be doing cumulative score for second round, that could make it interesting! (I recommend cumulative scoring in a completely objective format as this) SIMPLE, SWEET AND TO THE POINT! WHAT DO YOU THINK? I deleted a lot of stuff, reformatted stuff, added a lot of stuff. All from discussions I had with people via email and phone conversations. It all seems so much clearer now! Lets talk! See ya! Enlightener Scott Davidson From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Nov 2 20:36:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03717 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:36:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03713 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:36:01 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3710) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA03708 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:36:00 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA22342; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 13:37:50 -0700 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04716; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 14:38:26 -0600 (CST) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id OAA13605; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 14:38:24 -0600 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 14:38:24 -0600 (CST) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Scott Davidson cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Drops was: Full Shred Event In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Scott Davidson wrote: > > Some members of the IFAB are lobbying for stronger drop > penalties, *so* heavy that one drop would predetermine that a player could > not win the event. Would any other IFAB members care to comment on this? Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu sportsmom extraordinaire From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Nov 3 01:48:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05328 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 01:47:59 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05324 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 01:47:58 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5321) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA05319 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 01:47:57 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA25798 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 18:49:52 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-23.kode.net [206.42.219.42]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA11230 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:57:32 -0800 Message-ID: <327BF9F7.3D2A@Kode.net> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 20:48:39 -0500 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] footbag Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I saw on cartoon network some cartoons kicking a bag! Way Cool!!! It was Dial M for monkey. just thought I would tell ya all.hehehehe Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Nov 3 02:00:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05423 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 02:00:18 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05417 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 02:00:16 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5412) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA05410 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 02:00:15 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA25995 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:02:08 -0700 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-23.kode.net [206.42.219.42]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA11742 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:09:47 -0800 Message-ID: <327BFCD6.2E40@Kode.net> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 21:00:54 -0500 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] merits of ankle stretching References: <199611021712.MAA23690@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dennis Yun wrote: > > Hello phreestyle phriends, > > The use of the 'ph' is in honor of the shred circle that I was part at > the Hampton, VA Phish show last Friday. It was kind of shocking to see a > circle of 6 or 7 pairs of Lavers in the Hampton Roads area (I live > there). The loss of Sir Irish certainly didn't help the freestyle cause > in that area... > > Anyway, back to my subject header. I was talking to a styler in Hampton > who remarked how much his ankle flex had improved just by strecthing > whenever he was sitting in a chair or whatever. Now, I've tried this > before, but my ankles began to ache after a couple of days of this. Can > anyone tell me the merits of this? How about advice on how to do this > without causing injury? > > -Dennis Yun > dyun@sas.upenn.edu > Hello Dennis and the list!! I have been stretching my ankles for years and there is one thing that needs to be said."stretch frequently(10-12xday) but do NOT over stretch. This causes alot of pain and will affect your game.ie. ankles hurting. You can stretch your ankles in multipule ways but heres my fav. Do a butterfly stretch, stretching your groins. Then take the souls of your feet and point them up. (outsides of your feet will touch) then gently work on getting the heels closer to your crotch and the outsides of you feet up. so the souls of your feet are up in a convex shape if you can._-_ I hope this is clear? This has helped me alot over the years. I've had multipule sprains and i'm still able to do this as part of rehab. Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Nov 3 18:29:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA10490 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:29:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA10486 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:29:41 GMT Received: from elklein@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10483) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA10481 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:29:40 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA03127 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:31:50 -0700 Received: (from elklein@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id NAA23350 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:32:18 -0500 (EST) From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:32:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611031832.NAA23350@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Full Shred To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 13:32:17 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Enlightener, Why do the strings need to be submitted beforehand? Why are participants slightly penalized for not doing this? It seems to me that it would make no difference whether the strings are authentically freestyled or choreographed, especially with cameras set up. Other than this objection I personally like the Full Shred format. Maybe we should have a trial run at the Christmas Jam. Later my friends, Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Nov 3 18:46:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA10596 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:46:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA10592 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:46:50 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10589) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA10587 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:46:49 GMT Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA03264 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:48:57 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.25] ([17.127.18.25]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA114436; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 10:44:42 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611031832.NAA23350@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 10:45:43 -0800 To: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Full Shred Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:32 AM -0800 11/3/96, Ethan L Klein wrote: >Enlightener, Why do the strings need to be submitted beforehand? Why are >participants slightly penalized for not doing this? It seems to me that >it would make no difference whether the strings are authentically >freestyled or >choreographed, especially with cameras set up. But Ethan, I think that's a lot of what makes this event different from the existing freestyle event. The idea is that it's a purely technical event -- to ensure that you get credit for complicated strings you have to submit them in advance so that the judges know exactly what they're looking for. Otherwise, you have to find competent judges who can figure out what they just saw in that quick flash of foot-movement. Even the best judges can't always tell what they just saw. But if they're expecting it, it's much better. It keeps the players honest -- i.e., if they were going to do a ripwalk-blur-paradon-paradox-whirling-swirl-down-double-down combination, but they bailed and only hit a ripwalk-blur-paradon-paradox-whirl-down-down-down the judges will be clear on this and dock them a little for the mistake. I see no other way to ensure accuracy in judging (which is purely half of Scott's goal) if judges don't know what they're looking for. >Maybe we should have a trial run at the Christmas Jam. I am pretty sure the idea is to have a trial run at the HEART OF FOOTBAG Freestyle Tournament in Portland on February 15-16. See http://www.footbag.org/events.html for more info on the event. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Nov 3 21:23:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11449 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:23:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11445 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:23:19 GMT Received: from elklein@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11442) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA11440 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:23:17 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA04903 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:25:27 -0700 Received: (from elklein@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id QAA06643 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:26:01 -0500 (EST) From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:26:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611032126.QAA06643@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Full Shred To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:26:01 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve, I do realize the near impossibility of accurately recognizing and hence judging a high-level freestyle string such as proposed in Full Shred, That's why the use of videotaped footage becomes important. The problem inherent in relying on videotaped footage rests, of course, in the fact that such a system would prove slow and reliant on the necessary equipment. The other side of the argument about augmenting pre-proposed strings of tricks is if the participant feels inspired to step-up this string while shredding. For instance; instead of hitting blur-paradon-blizzard-smear-legbeater-paradox whirl-symposium whirl-barfly. He/She hits blur-paradon-blizzard-smear-legbeater-paradox whirling swirl-symposium double whirl-barflying swirl. Then the participant should recieve additional kudos (and point-credit) for the additional degree of difficulty demonstrated in the last three tricks. If Scott already acounts for this within his system you can go ahead and flame me for the speed and uncriticalness with which I read his summary. All I'm saying is that allowing, and not penalizing, for spontineity, can both work toward the advantage and disadvantage (IN terms of difficulty and coolness) of the combo. NOt requiring a pre-arranged set of tricks to be submitted would not necessarily take away from the value of Scott's new system (except for the difficulty in judging, which again could be reconciled with videotaped footage review.) His aim, I think, is to step away from the frivolous trappings, from a hard-core freesylers perspective, of the current no-drop oriented, judging system and enter into the realm of the radical combo-busting, limit pushing, gut nature of footbag freestyle. I, of course, will always push for the FREESTYLE (true nature of the word)aspect of the sport to be incorporated in whatever pathway it follows. Sorry so wordy in this message folks, it just came out this way. Later, Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Nov 3 23:44:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12175 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:44:04 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12164 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:44:01 GMT Received: from nbpayne@osprey.smcm.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12161) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA12159; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:44:00 GMT Received: from osprey.smcm.edu (osprey.smcm.edu [138.78.1.14]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA06299; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:46:13 -0700 Received: from smcm-Message_Server by osprey.smcm.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 03 Nov 1996 18:51:17 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 18:43:22 -0500 From: Neil Payne To: announce@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] St. Mary's Shred - Nov. 16 -confirmed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fellow Kickers, On Saturday, November 16, the St. Mary's College Dragonfly Footbag club is holding a freestyle event. The goal of this event is to promote our club and the sport. The days activities will include a freestyle and consecutives competition for beginners (first time competitors) and a freestyle shred for all. I hope to have some footbags to offer as prizes to the competitors. I will definitely have food to offer anyone who makes it. I also have a small amount of money ($35) to divide up among anyone who travels to kick. Hopefully our club equipment order will arrive this week which will include a net. The few of us here that have been introduced to competitive kicking have not become real skilled at net yet, but anyone who would like to come and give us some tips / schooling, is definitely welcome. Our school is located about 1 hour and 45 minutes south of DC. A few DC Allstars have made verbal commitments (Vince and the Vu brothers). Anyone else that is reasonably close (U-Penn kickers), please try to make it. Thanks for your time, Neil Payne -founder of SMC Dragonfly Footbag club St. Mary's, MD (301) 863-2883 nbpayne@osprey.smcm.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 03:05:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13380 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:05:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13376 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:05:47 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13373) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA13371 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:05:46 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA08449 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 20:08:01 -0700 Received: from port931-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port931-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.169]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA09602 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:10:59 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199611040310.QAA09602@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:07:50 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [freestyle] Refraction Worrys Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi fellow freestylers :) If I am going for a tiltless combo, and I snake in a refraction, is that counted as a tilt because when I start the refraction its an inside delay... would I have to make it a blurry refraction or something? how do I shove a pendulum into a tiltless combo? blurry it?? Just wondering anyways, Later! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 03:33:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13531 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:33:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13527 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:33:12 GMT Received: from damianco@chcsn1.ait.ac.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13524) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA13522 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:33:11 GMT Received: from rangitoto.ait.ac.nz (proxy-3.ait.ac.nz [202.36.72.28]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA08756 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 20:35:27 -0700 Received: from chcsn1.ait.ac.nz (chcsn1.ait.ac.nz [156.62.128.3]) by rangitoto.ait.ac.nz (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA11257 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:40:52 +1300 Received: from CHCSN1/SpoolDir by chcsn1.ait.ac.nz (Mercury 1.21); 4 Nov 96 16:36:14 +1200 Received: from SpoolDir by CHCSN1 (Mercury 1.21); 4 Nov 96 16:36:08 +1200 From: "oMEn" Organization: Auckland Institute of Technology To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:36:08 GMT+12 Subject: [freestyle] DATWs Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.21 Message-ID: <48142D14052@chcsn1.ait.ac.nz> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey there people... I woz wondering about the Double Around the World record. Last i heard it woz 12 by Hu-Mungis and Rippin or sumthing. Here's me questions: - do the DATWs have to be a specific direction? ie inside out, outside in or a mixture of both? - how long are you allowed to hold the delay for inbetween each DATW? Well i got 8 in a row outside in with about a half second delay inbetween each....and 1 witness :) Well i'll keep at it and maybe if Rippin's leg falls off then maybe one day i could have a shot at the record ay? damianco@chcsn1.ait.ac.nz \O |\ A.F.F.C. Co-President / \_o \ ` ' From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 04:33:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA13869 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 04:33:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA13865 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 04:33:49 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13862) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA13860 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 04:33:48 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA09377 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:36:05 -0700 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA27423 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:36:25 -0600 (CST) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id WAA27948; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:36:24 -0600 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:36:24 -0600 (CST) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Music????? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org After yesterday, I have a new "favorite" CD to style to. It's Lee Rittenour (sp?) Wes Bound. Very cool. I'm going to go out & buy it if I ever have the money. So, I'm still waiting to hear what music other people like to style to. I've seen a couple of references to Phish concerts. What else? Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu sportsmom extraordinaire From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 06:35:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA14477 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:35:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA14473 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:35:06 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14470) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA14468 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:35:04 GMT Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA10620 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:37:23 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.145] ([17.127.18.145]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA43226; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:37:15 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611032126.QAA06643@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:34:25 -0800 To: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Full Shred Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:26 PM -0800 11/3/96, Ethan L Klein wrote: > The other side of the argument about augmenting pre-proposed >strings of tricks is if the participant feels inspired to step-up this >string while shredding. For instance; instead of hitting >blur-paradon-blizzard-smear-legbeater-paradox whirl-symposium >whirl-barfly. He/She hits blur-paradon-blizzard-smear-legbeater-paradox >whirling swirl-symposium double whirl-barflying swirl. Then the >participant should recieve additional kudos (and point-credit) for the >additional degree of difficulty demonstrated in the last three tricks. Well, this newly-proposed format, as far as I understand it (at least in spirit) is not really a "free"-style format. It's a technical format. It's not about being inspired; it's not about playing to music; it's not about anything but hitting the moves listed -- that's what discriminates it more than anything from the existing format. We're not trying to evolve the existing format, we're talking about adding a new and completely different format that will measure pure technical ability. The idea is basically that there are two types of freestylers (and a lot of folks who are in between) -- technical and style. Those who are into pure style will do better in the choreographed competition (our current system) and those who are into pure technique will do better in the technical competition. Ideally, the person who wins the technical competition will not be judged on anything but hitting the moves he/she set forth to hit. That's the idea here, as far as I can tell. (Of course there are people who might do really well in both.) >If Scott already acounts for this within his system you can go ahead and >flame me for the speed and uncriticalness with which I read his summary. Oh, I have no issue with being certain that the "penalty" is fair. In the case that someone hits a *harder* combo, maybe we need to take that into consideration, but it should be clear that if he/she bails to a simpler combo (like figure skaters who bail from a triple to a double) there's a mandatory deduction for not following the program. However, knowing that there's no benefit to hitting a harder move, players will probably stick to their program unless they're bailing to an easier move... (They can get inspired all they want in the presentation-oriented freestyle competition.) >All I'm saying is that allowing, and not penalizing, for spontineity, can >both work toward the advantage and disadvantage (IN terms of difficulty >and coolness) of the combo. And all I'm saying is that this particular event is not about spontaneity. That's the other event (and yes, the rules for that other event might migrate in the direction of this event, with more room for spontaneity and more focus on originality and on presentation and movement with music). >NOt requiring a pre-arranged set of tricks >to be submitted would not necessarily take away from the value of Scott's >new system I think much of Scott's idea would be lost if you start making this look more like a reworking of the other judging system. We're trying to create a new niche event, not remold the previous system. Does that make any sense? (With or without videotape judging I still think spontaneity goes against the grain of the whole vision for where this competition fits into the world.) >His aim, I think, is to step >away from the frivolous trappings, from a hard-core freesylers >perspective, of the current no-drop oriented, judging system and enter >into the realm of the radical combo-busting, limit pushing, gut nature of >footbag freestyle. Well, I think Scott's aim is multifaceted. You've definitely got one of them. But there's more. In cloning various aspects of the diving competition format, he's trying to (1) make the concepts easier to grasp for the audience, (2) add clear structure so there's less room for controversy, and (3) promote simplicity in the format and judging system so that everyone understands what's really going on. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 06:43:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA14559 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:43:54 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA14555 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:43:52 GMT Received: from elklein@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14552) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA14550 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:43:52 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA10752 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:46:11 -0700 Received: (from elklein@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id BAA27757 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:46:42 -0500 (EST) From: elklein@sas.upenn.edu (Ethan L Klein) Posted-Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:46:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611040646.BAA27757@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Cooool Musack To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:46:41 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Cool tunes to jam to: Phish, especially Bathtub Gin and Weekapagh Groove Carlos Santana with Buddy Miles Jimi with the Band of Gypsys Dead- FIre on the Mountain Primus-influenced by watching '95 World's vid so many damned times To the sound of one's own beat-box (possible new level of the game in which freestyler creates own music while jammin. A veritable jam within a jam.) Cool Techno Bob Marley-Rastaman Vibrations Everyone in the circle snappin their fingers -Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 06:45:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA14578 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:45:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA14574 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:45:23 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14571) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA14569 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 06:45:23 GMT Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA10788 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:47:42 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.145] ([17.127.18.145]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA68066; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:47:31 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611040310.QAA09602@ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:47:47 -0800 To: "The Sock" From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Refraction Worrys Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 9:07 AM -0800 10/31/96, The Sock wrote: >If I am going for a tiltless combo, and I snake in a refraction, >is that counted as a tilt because when I start the refraction its an >inside delay... Refraction is 3 adds. Not only is it tiltless, it's guiltless. >how do I shove a pendulum into a tiltless combo? blurry it?? I wonder if you mean "guiltless"? Pendulums are not tilts by any means. And I'd sure like to see a blurry pendulum -- sounds cool! Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 07:51:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA14985 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 07:51:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA14981 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 07:51:20 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14978) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA14976 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 07:51:19 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA11802 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 00:53:33 -0700 Received: from port901-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port901-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.139]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA07878; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:54:27 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199611040754.UAA07878@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: Ida Bettis Fogle Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:21:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Music????? CC: freestyle@footbag.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > So, I'm still waiting to hear what music other people like to style to. > I've seen a couple of references to Phish concerts. What else? Just before the Weezer concert started there was a circle of people kicking around a footbag infront of the stage.. I guess they were inspired by Weezers 'Say it ain't so' music video where they are kicking around a sipa sipa at the end... Apart from them I reckon Becks CD 'Odelay' is cool to shred to :) Laterz From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Nov 4 16:43:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA18286 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:43:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA18282 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:43:22 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18279) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA18277 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:43:21 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA17481 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:45:47 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA24154 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:00:09 -0600 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBCA3E.03B5F4A0@www.lanit.com>; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:50:38 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:50:36 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The consensus is that we just plug the commonly accepted definition into the rulebook and go on about our business. This is what we need to do. I probably have to much vested in what the rulebook says, since I'm the one that has been responsible for producing it for several years now. For our next exasperating excercise, we need to come up with a definition for the body add category that reasonably includes paradox. Derrick Fogle Systems Analyst LANIT Consulting 573-446-1187 derrick-fogle@lanit.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Nov 5 00:45:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA21598 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:44:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA21594 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:44:01 GMT Received: from danzilla@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (21591) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA21589 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:44:01 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA23340 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:46:50 -0700 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 4 Nov 1996 23:15:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 4 Nov 1996 23:15:09 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-34-14.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.14]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.8.2/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA03506 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:15:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:15:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199611042315.RAA03506@mail.utexas.edu> X-Sender: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: danzilla@mail.utexas.edu (Dan Sharber) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Music????? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >So, I'm still waiting to hear what music other people like to style to. >I've seen a couple of references to Phish concerts. What else? I like Pavement and also Uncle Tupelo. They both tend to have great songs to kick to. Later, Dan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Nov 5 07:52:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA24243 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 07:52:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA24239 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 07:52:15 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (24236) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA24234 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 07:52:14 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA28599 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:55:01 -0700 Received: by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA17223; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:18:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:18:58 -0500 Message-ID: <961105001858_1914444455@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: the_sock@ihug.co.nz, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Refraction Worrys Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 96-11-03 22:11:42 EST, the_sock@ihug.co.nz (The Sock) writes: << Hi fellow freestylers :) If I am going for a tiltless combo, and I snake in a refraction, is that counted as a tilt because when I start the refraction its an inside delay... would I have to make it a blurry refraction or something? how do I shove a pendulum into a tiltless combo? blurry it?? Just wondering anyways, Later! >> When u do the refraction dont hold it on an inside stall. Instead, right when it falls on your foot do the refraction making it one smooth move (3 adds). For the pendulum dont hold the toe stall. when the sack is in the air start doing the pendulum just as it hits your foot. catch it on your toe with your leg straight and bring it back behind you. -mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Nov 5 10:40:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA25294 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:40:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA25289 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:40:11 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (25286) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA25284 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:40:10 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA30256 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 03:42:58 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id FAE22222; Tue, 05 Nov 1996 05:24:03 EST To: elklein@sas.upenn.edu Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 02:45:48 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Deep thoughts Message-ID: <19961105.030051.4286.6.dervish@juno.com> References: <199611011917.OAA26243@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,11-15 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > A friend of mine and I were brainstorming yesterday, in an >attempt to come up with 4 or 5 add moves that didn't include any >dexterities. Five spins and a toe stall - four to the clipper. double spinning osis. What's up my random friend? Apologies about the bust-outta-philly, but being away from home and random insanity bugged me out like nothing else. Dan says W'sup and I hope to seee you jerks soon. Tell all the pretty women I love them, including that mad dancer Erin. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Nov 5 16:01:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA27141 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:00:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA27137 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:00:23 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27133) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA27131 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:00:22 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA00762 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:03:16 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LAA06769; Tue, 05 Nov 1996 11:03:20 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:45:41 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Deep thoughts Message-ID: <19961105.110215.4286.0.dervish@juno.com> References: <199611011917.OAA26243@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> <19961105.030051.4286.6.dervish@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org My apologies to the list. misplaced keystroke. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Nov 5 16:56:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA27530 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:56:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA27526 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:56:53 GMT Received: from nbpayne@osprey.smcm.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27523) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA27521 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:56:53 GMT Received: from osprey.smcm.edu (osprey.smcm.edu [138.78.1.14]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA01351 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:59:45 -0700 Received: from smcm-Message_Server by osprey.smcm.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 05 Nov 1996 12:04:17 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 11:55:52 -0500 From: Neil Payne To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Music????? -Reply Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello, Considering that music gives me so much joy in life, I thought I would add my preferences... On Sunday, my friend Will and I styled to Beastie Boys - Pauls Boutique. We let the cd go and started it over when it finished. I definitely enjoy kicking to the B-Boys or A Tribe called Quest. However, I would have to say that my favorite music to kick to would be a mix-tape of either hip hop or house (dance / techno / rave / trance...) that I have recently made (I recently bought dj equipment). The beats really get me moving and I like to groove when I am not the one who is kicking. dancing with dragonflies, Neil >>> Ida Bettis Fogle 11/03/96 11:36pm >>> >After yesterday, I have a new "favorite" CD to style to. It's >Lee Rittenour (sp?) Wes Bound. Very cool. I'm going to go >out & buy it if I ever have the money. >So, I'm still waiting to hear what music other people like to >style to. I've seen a couple of references to Phish concerts. >What else? >Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu sportsmom >extraordinaire From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 01:00:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA30599 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:59:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA30595 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:59:36 GMT Received: from mike3094@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (30592) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA30590 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:59:36 GMT From: MIKE3094@aol.com Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA06950 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:02:11 -0700 Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA26172; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:02:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:02:33 -0500 Message-ID: <961105200230_1248859322@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: nbpayne@osprey.smcm.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Music????? -Reply Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 96-11-05 12:16:48 EST, nbpayne@osprey.smcm.edu (Neil Payne) writes: << Hello, Considering that music gives me so much joy in life, I thought I would add my preferences... On Sunday, my friend Will and I styled to Beastie Boys - Pauls Boutique. We let the cd go and started it over when it finished. I definitely enjoy kicking to the B-Boys or A Tribe called Quest. However, I would have to say that my favorite music to kick to would be a mix-tape of either hip hop or house (dance / techno / rave / trance...) that I have recently made (I recently bought dj equipment). The beats really get me moving and I like to groove when I am not the one who is kicking. >> I have to say that synthesized fake beats are good to play to. Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 01:49:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA30924 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 01:49:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA30920 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 01:49:32 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (30917) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA30915 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 01:49:32 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA07499 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:52:05 -0700 Received: (from marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id RAA24833; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:31:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:31:30 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne Subject: Re: [freestyle] Music????? -Reply To: Neil Payne cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi everyone! The music i like stylin' to are: Eric Clapton Stevie R. Vaughn Steve Vai Iron Maiden Buddy Guy Anything with a good solid beat. Later, Adrian P.S.-I hit my first *blender* today! -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 09:14:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA00778 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:14:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA00774 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:14:37 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (771) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA00769 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:14:36 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA12052 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 02:17:17 -0700 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.6/SAS 8.06) id EAA20965 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 04:17:48 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Posted-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 04:17:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611060917.EAA20965@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Judgin To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 04:17:47 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have been reading up on the current judging system, and I have a couple of questions that I know you people can answer, so here goes: 1) If I have done both a pixie and a mirage, will a smear count as a unique dexterity in the comps? Will it count as two? 2) Enlightener said that if you drop, you will likely loose, but a drop only deducts 1/4 of a point. Does he mean that your presentation also goes WAY down with a drop? 3) Does the same move done with the other leg count as a unique dexterity in the comps? 4) If i CLEARLY and INTENTIONALY grab the bag with my hand (i.e. not a save) because I feel like it, will it be a drop? Thanks Alex p.s. What time is it now? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 13:23:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA02255 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:23:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA02251 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:23:50 GMT Received: from rtroxel@ops.esu19.k12.ne.us () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2248) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA02246 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:23:49 GMT Received: from redgate.esu19.k12.ne.us ([162.127.19.9]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA14553 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 06:26:34 -0700 Received: by redgate.esu19.k12.ne.us; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA06098; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 07:30:23 -0600 Received: by ops.esu19.k12.ne.us; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Aug96-0319PM) id AA23458; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 07:28:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 07:27:10 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Troxel Subject: [freestyle] Squeeze To: Alessandre S Naro Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199611060917.EAA20965@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What are some of the moves that involve a squeeze? I have seen ATW from a squeeze also a dragonfly. Any others? RYE From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 16:15:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA03382 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:15:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA03378 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:15:25 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3375) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA03373 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:15:25 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA16186 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:18:11 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.99] ([17.127.18.99]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA52496; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:17:17 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611060917.EAA20965@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:18:52 -0800 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Judgin Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:17 AM -0800 11/6/96, Alessandre S Naro wrote: >1) If I have done both a pixie and a mirage, will a smear count as a >unique dexterity in the comps? Will it count as two? "Unique" means "within a unique move". It's not the type of dexterity but the move itself that determines uniqueness. (But the set doesn't count, so the dexterity in a mirage set from clipper is identical to the dexterity in a mirage set from toe, for example.) So in your case, you'd get credit for all three moves on the Comp cards; you'd get one hash-mark on the dexterity card for pixie (assuming you mean pixie-toe); one hash-mark for mirage; and two hash-marks for smear. >2) Enlightener said that if you drop, you will likely loose, but a drop >only deducts 1/4 of a point. Does he mean that your presentation also >goes WAY down with a drop? I *think* Scott is referring to the quality of play at the top level. There just aren't that many drops in open freestyle, and most players come close to maxing out the comp cards. And, yes, drops do affect all the judges' general impressions of the routine (and audience response). This will undoubtedly affect the presentation score. Dropless routines usually have a much better chance of winning than otherwise. >3) Does the same move done with the other leg count as a unique dexterity >in the comps? Yes. Each side you use is unique. Left smear is one move; right smear is another, for example. >4) If i CLEARLY and INTENTIONALY grab the bag with my hand (i.e. not a save) >because I feel like it, will it be a drop? No, it is not a drop. Only an *unchoreographed* catch is a drop. Also, IFAB has also just changed it this year so that there are not "slops" (1/2-drops) on the drop card; if you hit your upper body with the bag now, it is just bad form. The presentation judges may count off for it, but you won't get double jeopardy anymore since the drop counter will let it slide. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 17:09:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA03722 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:09:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA03718 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:09:26 GMT Received: from sekaran@eniac.seas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3715) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA03713 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:09:25 GMT Received: from central.cis.upenn.edu (CENTRAL.CIS.UPENN.EDU [158.130.12.2]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA16838 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:12:14 -0700 Received: from red.seas.upenn.edu (sekaran@RED.SEAS.UPENN.EDU [130.91.5.147]) by central.cis.upenn.edu (8.6.12/UPenn 1.4) with ESMTP id MAA25479; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:12:37 -0500 Received: by red.seas.upenn.edu id MAA21369; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:12:32 -0500 (EST) Posted-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:12:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611061712.MAA21369@red.seas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Squeeze To: rtroxel@ops.esu19.k12.ne.us (Ryan Troxel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:12:32 -0500 (EST) From: "S. Vijay Sekaran" Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Ryan Troxel" at Nov 6, 96 07:27:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > What are some of the moves that involve a squeeze? I have seen ATW from > a squeeze also a dragonfly. Any others? > RYE > > RYE, I am not very good at squeezing and/or releasing from a squeeze, but I have seen people hit smear, dble atw's, and double legovers. I'm sure there are plenty of other moves you can do from a squeeze. The other day my friends and I were thinking of a flying squeeze and release. THat is you catch the bag in air, say from behind you, bring you knee out in front of you while still in air and relaese the bag before landing. I don't know if this has been hit, but it would be way cool. It kinda like a squeezing reverse eclipse. Shred on, Vijay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | PHREESTYLIN' IN PHILADELPHIA S. Vijay Sekaran | ___ 4114 Pine St. | /\___/\ Philadelphia, PA 19104 | |_/ \_| PENNSYLVANIA (215)-243-2441 | | \___/ | FOOTBAG | \/___\/ sekaran@eniac.seas.upenn.edu | | (otherwise known as "hacky-sack") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 17:14:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA03793 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:14:47 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA03789 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:14:45 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3786) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA03784 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:14:45 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA16870 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:17:33 -0700 Received: from [17.127.18.99] ([17.127.18.99]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22186 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:16:48 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611061712.MAA21369@red.seas.upenn.edu> References: from "Ryan Troxel" at Nov 6, 96 07:27:10 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:18:18 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Squeeze Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> What are some of the moves that involve a squeeze? I have seen ATW from >> a squeeze also a dragonfly. Any others? Another move is "Mechanosis". It's RAD! It's an osis set from squeeze/pincher. The idea is you bring the leg holding the bag up in front of you, drop it and as the bag is falling you turn into it and osis with the other leg. It looks a lot like torque. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 20:42:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA05281 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:42:47 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA05277 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:42:45 GMT Received: from derrick-fogle@lanit.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5274) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA05272 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:42:45 GMT Received: from mail.socketis.net (mail.socketis.net [204.120.70.101]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA19391 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:45:23 -0700 Received: from www.lanit.com ([204.120.71.6]) by mail.socketis.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA09693 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:01:13 -0600 Received: by www.lanit.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BBCBF1.E1161BE0@www.lanit.com>; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:50:40 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Derrick G. Fogle" To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:50:35 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Any move involving jumping, spinning, blind catches (osis), twisting or >double weight shifts such as are inherent in paradox moves. Alright! Outside set > opp I-O Dex > opp Toe Del Is now a paradox move, by your definition. It contains the same double weight shift/double hip rotation. Refer to circular argument post. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 20:50:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA05339 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:50:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA05335 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:50:19 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5332) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA05330 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:50:19 GMT Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA19538 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:52:55 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA56558; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:51:46 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:54:58 -0800 To: "Derrick G. Fogle" From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox Cc: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:50 PM -0800 11/6/96, Derrick G. Fogle wrote: >Outside set > opp I-O Dex > opp Toe Del > >Is now a paradox move, by your definition. It contains the same double >weight shift/double hip rotation. Yeah! Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 22:12:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA05967 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:12:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA05963 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:12:13 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5960) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA05958 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:12:13 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA20548 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:14:41 -0700 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QAA01400; Wed, 06 Nov 1996 16:49:10 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:19:58 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Squeeze Message-ID: <19961106.161959.3558.1.dervish@juno.com> References: <199611061712.MAA21369@red.seas.upenn.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,8-11 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >but I have seen people hit smear, dble atw's, and double legovers. *double legovers* or just a legover from the squeeze? >sure there are plenty of other moves you can do from a squeeze. I have hit squeeze into crossbody rake, eclipse, knee stall (FUN!) and also around to the same squeeze - and although I thought of it independently - the word is it was invented by ET Constable. Tomorrow I will try either side butterfly, and sameside osis. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 22:28:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06070 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:28:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06065 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:28:35 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6062) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA06060 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:28:30 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA20809 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:30:52 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.93] (d93.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.93]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.2/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA12287; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:31:30 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:33:57 -0500 To: Ryan Troxel , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Squeeze Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Ryan! >What are some of the moves that involve a squeeze? I have seen ATW from >a squeeze also a dragonfly. Any others? Squeeze? You mean Pincher. Anyway, Cross Body Pinchers Spinning Pinchers Spinning Cross Body Pinchers ButterPinch (or Pincherfly) InfiniPinch (or Pinchinity) Pinchwalk (ripwalk ending in cross body pincher) The real challenge is twofold: Come up with pinchers that are guilt-free (see above), and to find ways *out* of them. The second part is the hardest... how to get out of a pincher. In the beginning it may seem difficult because to have a good set you need lift, and when you try to apply lift to the footbag trapped behind your knee, it is hard to get your knee out of the way on the way up. The trick is to not pinch it too hard (better for control), practice the upward lifting motion where you release before the apex and give yourself time to get out of the way and bail to a toe. Then practice going to other places, like this: Pinch to "drifter" (really only 2 adds, because it is essentially going to a clipper) Pinch to "torque" [mechanosis] (really only 3 adds, because it is essentially an osis) Pinch to "whirl" (a great drill for blurry whirl) Pinch to pinch (or cross-body pinch) Pinch to "butterfly" (really only 2 adds, because it is essentially a clipper delay) Pinch to lap catch. Pinch to pinch Pinch to barrage Pinch to spinning clipper (I haven't tried this, just thinkin', hmmm) How's dat? See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 22:28:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06080 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:28:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06076 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:28:40 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6073) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA06071 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:28:39 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA20812 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:30:57 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.93] (d93.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.93]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.2/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA12301; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:31:37 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:34:02 -0500 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro), freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Judgin Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Alex and Freestylers! >1) If I have done both a pixie and a mirage, will a smear count as a >unique dexterity in the comps? Yes. (compared to those two moves, you also get a unique delay) >Will it count as two? No. A move can have two dexterity adds and still only satisfy's the "unique" move category once. i.e. A Double ATW is only 1 unique move in dex, and delay. >2) Enlightener said that if you drop, you will likely loose, but a drop >only deducts 1/4 of a point. NO! I said there are IFAB'ers out there lobbying for penalties soooooo strong that one drop will eliminate you from the potential of winning. I think this is both wrong and right at the same time. Yes, we need to make dropless routines the norm... and while this isn't the way I want to see it happen, I believe this is the trend. I strongly believe if we do that, it will be WAY UNFAIR to the shredders (who also happen to be the top freestylers in the world) who have pushed the edge so far. So if I cave in on the "weight of the drop" issue, it will ONLY be because we have approved a new event that focuses on the difficulty side of things (and run it at major tourneys IN ADDITION to the current event). >Does he mean that your presentation also >goes WAY down with a drop? Well, that happens too. But it is mostly because (IMHO) most presentation judges don't know what they are looking for, they have too much power, and because we (IFAB and players) have done a VERY POOR job of defining the elusive categories such as "personality and originality". (ALL the presention categories need to be overhauled, MASSIVELY). We need to rethink the way we score presentation. There should be no discussion among judges, at least two of the "two-point" categories can be scored quantitatively, and much more! >3) Does the same move done with the other leg count as a unique dexterity >in the comps? Yes. >4) If i CLEARLY and INTENTIONALY grab the bag with my hand (i.e. not a save) >because I feel like it, will it be a drop? Usually, yes. Unless at the end of the routine, or if you catch it on the back of your hand. It is hard to call, just don't do it and you will be sure not to be called for a drop. What is this, "handbag"? >What time is it now? 4:20? See ya! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 22:39:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06166 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:39:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06162 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:39:39 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6159) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA06157 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:39:38 GMT Received: from flowbee.interaccess.com (flowbee.interaccess.com [198.80.0.32]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA21061 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:41:53 -0700 Received: from [207.70.66.93] (d93.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.93]) by flowbee.interaccess.com (8.8.2/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA12602; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:42:34 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:44:59 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Judgin Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Steve and freestylers! >At 1:17 AM -0800 11/6/96, Alessandre S Naro wrote: >>1) If I have done both a pixie and a mirage, will a smear count as a >>unique dexterity in the comps? Will it count as two? >So in your case, you'd get credit for all three moves on the Comp cards; >you'd get one hash-mark on the dexterity card for pixie (assuming you mean >pixie-toe); one hash-mark for mirage; and two hash-marks for smear. Nope. Sorry, wrong answer. If a move has two dexterities (or 20), it gets only ONE unique hash mark on the comp card. Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Nov 6 22:46:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06242 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:46:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06238 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:46:50 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6235) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA06233 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:46:50 GMT Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA21096; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:49:00 -0700 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA29954; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:49:23 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:52:02 -0800 To: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Judgin Cc: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro), freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:34 PM -0800 11/6/96, Scott Davidson wrote: >>1) If I have done both a pixie and a mirage, will a smear count as a >>unique dexterity in the comps? > >Yes. (compared to those two moves, you also get a unique delay) > >>Will it count as two? > >No. A move can have two dexterity adds and still only satisfy's the >"unique" move category once. i.e. A Double ATW is only 1 unique move in >dex, and delay. Sorry -- my bad on this point. Yes of course -- it's only ONE hash mark. But it still is a DIFFERENT/UNIQUE move from either of the other two. So to clarify, I should've said: "Unique" means "within a unique move". It's not the type of dexterity but the move itself that determines uniqueness. (But the set doesn't count, so the dexterity in a mirage set from clipper is identical to the dexterity in a mirage set from toe, for example.) So in your case, you'd get credit for all three moves on the Comp cards; you'd get one hash-mark on the dexterity card for pixie (assuming you mean pixie-toe); one hash-mark for mirage; and ONE hash-mark for smear. ^^^ Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Nov 7 05:52:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA09135 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 05:52:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA09131 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 05:52:34 GMT Received: from damianco@chcsn1.ait.ac.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9128) Received: from Market.NET (root@Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA09126 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 05:52:33 GMT Received: from rangitoto.ait.ac.nz (proxy-3.ait.ac.nz [202.36.72.28]) by Market.NET (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA26417 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:54:21 -0700 Received: from chcsn1.ait.ac.nz (chcsn1.ait.ac.nz [156.62.128.3]) by rangitoto.ait.ac.nz (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA29138 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:01:20 +1300 Received: from CHCSN1/SpoolDir by chcsn1.ait.ac.nz (Mercury 1.21); 7 Nov 96 18:56:12 +1200 Received: from SpoolDir by CHCSN1 (Mercury 1.21); 7 Nov 96 18:56:11 +1200 From: "oMEn" Organization: Auckland Institute of Technology To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:56:06 GMT+12 Subject: Re: [freestyle] DATWs Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.21 Message-ID: <4CB97FB54C3@chcsn1.ait.ac.nz> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey there people... I woz wondering about the Double Around the World record. Last i heard it woz 12 by Hu-Mungis and Rippin or sumthing. Here's me questions: - do the DATWs have to be a specific direction? ie inside out, outside in or a mixture of both? - how long are you allowed to hold the delay for inbetween each DATW? Well i got 8 in a row outside in w