From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 1 08:52:17 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA00692 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 08:51:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA00688 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 08:51:50 GMT Received: from cen00989@centuryinter.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (685) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA00683 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 08:51:48 GMT Received: from host.pc.centuryinter.net (host.pc.centuryinter.net [206.65.177.250]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA28783 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:51:42 -0800 Received: from anxp12.gr.centuryinter.net by host.pc.centuryinter.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/16Aug95-0520PM) id AA24427; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 03:51:28 -0500 Message-Id: <32CA4F3A.173F@centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 03:49:15 -0800 From: Medical Library Organization: McLaren Regional Medical Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] x-mas jam. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey everyone! X-mas Jam 96 was very COOL! We had 11 states represented which included 5 BAP members. We raised $143.00 for the American Heart association. (you may no think that is much but its harder than you think) We also recieved a spot on the news. Andy missed his record by 13 kicks. 1006. Great try Andy!!! Enlightner and Genzu were the shredder extroidinaire's, with Hu, Smoothy and Kozmo respectfully holding their own. There were to many blistering combo's hit by all to count. Witht the exception of the Chizzler(Due to his conspicios absence) the mich boys did well. I have lots of name dropping to do and will soon. Hu-Mungis ps. I cannot recieve mail here try HuMungis@kode.net I am also haveing problems with my monitor so it may take a few days:( From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 1 23:25:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00469 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:25:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00465 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:25:18 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (462) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00460 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:25:17 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA32630 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:24:26 -0800 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-55.kode.net [206.42.219.74]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA20885 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:34:11 -0800 Message-ID: <32CAF1AF.D9C@Kode.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 18:22:23 -0500 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] As promised. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello. As i promised the rest of the scoop on x-mas jam. 11 states were represented: mich, ill, oh, nebraska, minn, ia, missouri, nj,penn, ny, co, and ireland. Instead of a pro event we had a few small contests for the up and comers. most mirrages: 30 by Ethan kline, from penn. most whirls : 4 by Ethan most atw : 29 by alex naro, from penn. most Rainbow clippers : 40 by Sean wingert from nebraska. They each recieved an addidas 32 panel footbag for their efforts. Way to go Fellas!!! Keep up the great work!! I will say that all of the people that came in, all had showed great improvments from the last time I had seen them. I would like to add that Joe Marshall is one shreddin dude!! He's now joined the ranks of the guiltless! Great job Joe!! Hes bustin phat moves like barfly, blur and blurywhirl. He'll be one to watch at worlds this year. The plan is to try and have this years X-Mass Jam in Las vegas! What do you guys think of that? I think that it would make the Jam more accessable to all kickers because of the low plane fares to and from there. I will be doing some research into this idea so if anyone out there has some info that they can pass by me PLEASE DO! Thats it from the Great (but not so white) north. Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 1 23:26:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00486 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:26:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00482 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:26:00 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (479) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00477 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:26:00 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA32675 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:25:51 -0800 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-55.kode.net [206.42.219.74]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA20909 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:35:43 -0800 Message-ID: <32CAF20B.547F@Kode.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 18:23:55 -0500 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Hu-Mungis bags Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have a few more footbags for the people that missed them at the jam. E-mail me for more info. Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 3 17:15:41 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00879 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:15:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00875 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:15:17 GMT Received: from ukickit@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (872) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00870 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:15:15 GMT Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA11745 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:14:29 -0800 Received: from (ukickit@por-or12-06.ix.netcom.com [204.31.113.198]) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20382 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:14:19 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:14:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199701031714.JAA20382@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: ukickit@ix.netcom.com (Ken Shults) Subject: [freestyle] Heart of Freestyle Tourney Reg Form To: freestyle@footbag.org.The.3rd.Annual.Heart.of.Footbag.Freestyle.Tournament Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Presented by Sole Purpose Footbag Club of Portland & the Health Education Club of Portland State University All proceeds to benefit the American Heart Association February 15-16, 1997 Portland State University, Main Gym REGISTRATION INFORMATION: Professional Prize $ Category Intermediate/Beginner Pre-registration: $40.00 $20 Day of event $45.00 $25 Entry fee is non-refundable. To pre-register, entries must be post-marked by Monday, February 3, 1997. Mail registration form along with a tax deductible check made payable to: American Heart Association 1425 N.E. Irving, #100, Portland, OR 97232-4201 Entry Fee Includes: player pack w/T-shirt and cool stuff, judging clinics for add counting and composition category judging, and freestyle workshops for all levels. Participants are encouraged to collect pledges for the American Heart Association. Prizes will be awarded to those who gather pledges. Prize levels vary with amount raised. Prizes are not cumulative. For more information call Sole Purpose Footbag Club at (503) 236-0939 İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİ NAME_________________________________________________ ADDRESS______________________________________________ CITY_________________________STATE_________ ZIP CODE_____________ Telephone____________________________ Age____________ WFA No. ___________ PLEASE CIRCLE WHICH CATEGORY YOU ARE ENTERING AND YOUR PARTNERS NAME. NOTE IF YOU NEED A PARTNER. OPEN FREESTYLE Singles _____ Doubles Partner ________________________ WOMEN'S FREESTYLE Singles ______ Doubles Partner ________________________ MIXED DOUBLES FREESTYLE Partner _____________ INTERMEDIATE FREESTYLE (Singles time limit one and a half minutes) Singles Doubles Partner _________________________ BEGINNER FREEESTYLE (Time limit one minute) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 3 17:35:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00952 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:35:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00948 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:35:13 GMT Received: from ukickit@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (945) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00943 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:35:12 GMT Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA11849 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:34:31 -0800 Received: from (ukickit@por-or12-06.ix.netcom.com [204.31.113.198]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA18359 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:34:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:34:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199701031734.JAA18359@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: ukickit@ix.netcom.com (Ken Shults) Subject: [freestyle] More Heart of Freestyle Stuff To: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Stylers, This Lady Tournament Director expects all stylers to come out of their winter caves for the 3rd Annual Heart of Footbag Freestyle Tournament. Prize money for Open and Women's Singles and Doubles Freestyle is $1500. You can save 5 bucks by registering early. Many sponsors have donated really cool products. The top gatherer of pledges in the form of checks to the American Heart Association will receive first choice of the product pile. Portland State University's main gym is pristine and a great place for a top notch event. I am sure Kenny will drag out his special shin saving kicking surface. We have had good television coverage of this event every year and with Worlds around the corner we are using every opportunity to shout about the sport of footbag. The skoolhouse should be big enough for all of the out of town competitors but please call me to confirm mattress space. We are also working on feeding competitors - as usual. Like last year there will be two nets set up but this year will be charging a minimum of $5.00 for non-competitors to use those nets. Please let me know if you need to receive a registration form and pledge sheet or if you have any questions or comments. Kendall KIC Tournament Director (503) 236-0939 FAX (503) 236-1981 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 6 23:10:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03092 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:10:18 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03088 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:10:17 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3085) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA03083 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:10:16 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14866 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:09:39 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA19249 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:09:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [freestyle] Paradox (No!) From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 17:10:16 +0000 Message-Id: <000000095212935415416@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'm working on the rulebook right now, and I'm not gonna finish it until = this stupid debate is resolved. The definition for Paradox will be what we = sort of agreed on earlier (X-body set, same leg does mirage, final contact = is either switch-foot or on same side as set). The Body definition will = simply state, "... and all moves that fit the Paradox definition, because = of the double hip rotation element involved." The reasoning is that, even though paradox is considered body because of = the double-torso rotation element, defining the move by it's body = components is too vague and would leave the allowance of paradox to be as = subjective as categories in the presentation card. Therefore, we use = specific, easily-identifiable constraints to classify paradox. (I still think its stoopid, but I'd rather do this than nothing) Derrick Fogle Computer Support Services Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation 104 Portland, Columbia, MO 65201 VOX: 573-443-1471 FAX: 573-443-1657 dfogle@mlerf.org From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 7 04:10:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA00510 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 04:09:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA00505 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 04:09:51 GMT From: mstrong@ix.netcom.com Received: from mstrong@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (502) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA00500 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 04:09:45 GMT Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16993 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:08:56 -0800 Received: from smtp.netcruiser (dal-tx10-33.ix.netcom.com [207.94.124.97]) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA01116 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:08:48 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:08:48 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-Id: <19971622936241@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox (No!) X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On 01/06/97 17:10:16 you wrote: > >I'm working on the rulebook right now, and I'm not gonna finish it until = >this stupid debate is resolved. The definition for Paradox will be what we = >sort of agreed on earlier (X-body set, same leg does mirage, final contact = >is either switch-foot or on same side as set). The Body definition will = >simply state, "... and all moves that fit the Paradox definition, because = >of the double hip rotation element involved." > >The reasoning is that, even though paradox is considered body because of = >the double-torso rotation element, defining the move by it's body = >components is too vague and would leave the allowance of paradox to be as = >subjective as categories in the presentation card. Therefore, we use = >specific, easily-identifiable constraints to classify paradox. > >(I still think its stoopid, but I'd rather do this than nothing) > >Derrick Fogle >Computer Support Services >Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation >104 Portland, Columbia, MO 65201 >VOX: 573-443-1471 FAX: 573-443-1657 >dfogle@mlerf.org > > I am just a novice, and have hit a paradox mirage only once, so I know that I don't have a complete handle on the "feel" of a paradox move. I understand how a blur is suppose to look (from seeing it on the TOTT video) and every description of the move has it starting from a clipper set. Why wouldn't the move be paradox if it was set from a toe set (left toe set->same leg inside out dex->opposite leg inside out dex->opposite leg toe stall or left toe set- >opposite leg inside out dex->opposite leg inside out dex->opposite leg toe stall)? I can't actually do any of these moves, but it seems like the "double hip rotation element" would be present in the blur set from either clipper stall or toe stall. -Matt p.s. I hope this doesn't start another crazy paradox debate. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 9 03:02:29 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07305 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:02:13 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07301 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:02:11 GMT Received: from ukickit@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7298) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA07296 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:02:10 GMT Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA32621 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:02:09 -0800 Received: from (ukickit@por-or6-14.ix.netcom.com [199.35.206.206]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA08191 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:01:37 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:01:37 -0800 Message-Id: <199701090301.TAA08191@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: ukickit@ix.netcom.com (Ken Shults) Subject: [freestyle] Heart of Freestyle Tourney To: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Attention Stylers: I recently purchased a round trip ticket from Portland to SFO on United for 61 bucks so if you are thinking about flying up for a fun weekend Feb. 15-16 call Oaks Travel or your travel agent now. Kendall KIC Tournament Director From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 9 15:05:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA08845 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:05:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA08839 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:05:00 GMT Received: from ratcliff@advtel.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8836) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA08834 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:05:00 GMT Received: from aopen.advtel.net (ns1.eatel.net [207.101.8.253]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA03143 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:04:33 -0800 Received: from p166 (max2-58.eatel.net [207.101.8.107]) by aopen.advtel.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA18607 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:11:28 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970109150553.00679900@mail.advtel.net> X-Sender: ratcliff@mail.advtel.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 09:05:53 -0600 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Wes Ratcliff Subject: [freestyle] The new Hackman is out! Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, the new Hackman is out. If you don't have the address, it is : http://aopen.advtel.net/~ratcliff/ Hackman is a little guy who shows you how to do freestyle moves step by step with text and graphics. So go check it out! Wes From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 11 14:58:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA04555 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:58:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA04551 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:58:04 GMT Received: from swingert@creighton.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4548) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA04546 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:58:03 GMT Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.15]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19874 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:57:16 -0800 Received: from p1-120.top.net by mailjay.creighton.edu with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA17592; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:57:04 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970111084613.0067921c@bluejay.creighton.edu> X-Sender: swingert@bluejay.creighton.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 beta 4 (32) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:46:20 -0600 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Sean Wingert Subject: [freestyle] 5-Add Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I was wondering if anyone out there has tried this: 1. Start from clipper stall. 2. Do a RipWalk, but instead of ending in a butterfly stall, end in a butterfly swirl stall. 3. (dex, dex, dex, cross-body, delay) = 5 Adds (I think). If so, is there a namesake? - Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 12 01:51:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA06626 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:50:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA06622 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:50:49 GMT Received: from humungis@kode.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6619) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06617 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:50:49 GMT Received: from bsd1.kode.net (bsd1.kode.net [206.42.219.3]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22715 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:50:06 -0800 Received: from kodenet.kode.net (ppp-11.kode.net [206.42.219.30]) by bsd1.kode.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA13735 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:00:29 -0800 Message-ID: <32D842B5.18F9@Kode.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:47:33 -0500 From: Paul Munger X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Program Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey everyone! I have run across a cool program that is similar to irc. But this thing is very cool. When you get online you will automatically see if anyone on your list is connected. You then can page them and chat. You can have as many people chatting as you want. You can also leave messages for people who are not on-line yet. There are ALOT of other things that can be done with this program that I don't know about. I just got it a few days ago. I think that everyone should get it and use it. It would be great to beable to chat with anyone at anytime when there on line. Of course footbag freestyle is the topic, and the name of the most AWESOME sport game ever. The program is free. It's currently a beta version. It runs in the background and doesn't take much in the realms of memory or resources from you computer. Get this cool ass program at: www.mirabilis.com It's about 2 megs Once you get it. search for people and add them to your list. You can put in e-mail addresses or nicknames. Hu-Mungis came right up on my search. WAY COOL. (I think anyway) Look forward to talking with you guys on this this soon. Later Hu-Mungis From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 13 21:37:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03185 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:37:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03181 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:37:22 GMT Received: from scrouse@fox.nstn.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3178) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03176 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:37:21 GMT Received: from Fox.nstn.ca (fox.nstn.ca [137.186.128.12]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02349 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:36:55 -0800 Received: from default (ts2-06.lwn.iSTAR.ca [137.186.23.138]) by Fox.nstn.ca (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA22109 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:36:46 -0400 (AST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970114092340.00670360@fox.nstn.ca> X-Sender: scrouse@fox.nstn.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:23:40 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Asmodeus Subject: [freestyle] New Footbagger Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi. I just started Hacking a couple of weeks ago and was wondering if anyone could describe any simple "tricks" I could learn? I also have a question, some of my friends that I hack with will bat the hacky-sack with their hand if they don't think that they can get it with their foot. Whenever I try and convince them that they should instead at least make an effort to get it with their foot they think I'm being stupid. Can you come up with a convincing argument against doing this? (You don't have to convince me, I already would never use my hand). Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 00:17:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04125 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:17:34 GMT Message-Id: <199701140017.AAA04125@eniac.yak.net.taz> From: Mike Niday To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] 5-Add Question Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:34:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Comment: Redirected from 'footbag' list by brat@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Sean! :-) Yeah, I'm hittin' Ripwalk Swirl ( I think that's what you're talking about... ) You should see Josh Casey - he hits it like it's nothin' ! Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com ---------- From: Sean Wingert Sent: Saturday, January 11, 1997 2:46 PM To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] 5-Add Question I was wondering if anyone out there has tried this: 1. Start from clipper stall. 2. Do a RipWalk, but instead of ending in a butterfly stall, end in a butterfly swirl stall. 3. (dex, dex, dex, cross-body, delay) = 5 Adds (I think). If so, is there a namesake? - Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 02:25:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA04665 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:25:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA04661 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:25:07 GMT From: pyroclad@geocities.com Received: from pyroclad@geocities.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4658) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA04656 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:25:06 GMT Received: from geocities.com (mail2.geocities.com [204.7.246.132]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01690 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:24:10 -0800 Received: from ind-0010-16.iquest.net (ind-0010-16.iquest.net [206.246.171.144]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA14978 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:23:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:23:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701140223.SAA14978@geocities.com> X-Sender: pyroclad@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > >Hey, the new Hackman is out. If you don't have the address, it is : >http://aopen.advtel.net/~ratcliff/ >Hackman is a little guy who shows you how to do freestyle moves step by step >with text and graphics. So go check it out! > > Wes Hey, that page is really cool...think it'll really help a beginner/intermediate like me conquer some cool moves. Really appreciate the page... Pyroclad pyroclad@geocities.com www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/3272/ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 04:56:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA00405 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 04:55:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA00401 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 04:55:36 GMT Received: from ariel@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (398) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA00396 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 04:55:36 GMT Received: from piglet.cc.utexas.edu (piglet.cc.utexas.edu [128.83.42.61]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA02529 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:54:31 -0800 Received: from localhost (ariel@localhost) by piglet.cc.utexas.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/piglet.mc-1.4) with SMTP id WAA19713 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:54:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:54:28 -0600 (CST) From: Ariel Santesteban X-Sender: ariel@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] What is a Ripstein? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In the new Footbag World, Rippin Rick is asked about tricks that he invented. He mentions Ripwalk and Ripstein. I have never heard of a Ripstein--what is it? And is it pronounced Rip-STEEN or Rip-STINE? ariel ariel@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 05:05:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA00431 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:05:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA00427 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:05:08 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (424) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA00422 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:05:07 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02595 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:04:34 -0800 Received: from [204.188.8.42] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01072 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:57:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:04:51 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] What is a Ripstein? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:54 PM -0800 1/13/97, Ariel Santesteban wrote: >In the new Footbag World, Rippin Rick is asked about tricks that he >invented. He mentions Ripwalk and Ripstein. I have never heard of a >Ripstein--what is it? Ripstein (pronounced Rip-STINE, to rhyme with FrankenSTEIN) is a double-swirl. In other words, the swirling leg goes around the bag twice before stalling it, all in the cross-body position on the same side of the body. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 08:33:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA01074 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:33:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA01070 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:33:34 GMT Received: from aloe@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1067) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA01065 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:33:33 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA03448 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:32:31 -0800 Received: (from aloe@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id AAA18114; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:32:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:32:26 -0800 (PST) From: Juliet Pendray Reply-To: Juliet Pendray Subject: [freestyle] No hands & No "sorry"s To: scrouse@fox.nstn.ca cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199701132350.XAA03834@eniac.yak.net.taz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Greetings Steve! > I just started Hacking a couple of weeks ago and was wondering if anyone > could describe any simple "tricks" I could learn? I also have a question, > some of my friends that I hack with will bat the hacky-sack with their hand > if they don't think that they can get it with their foot. Whenever I try and > convince them that they should instead at least make an effort to get it > with their foot they think I'm being stupid. Can you come up with a > convincing argument against doing this? (You don't have to convince me, I > already would never use my hand). It's annoying to kick in a circle with people who use their hands! My main argument is that when you get used to using your hands to bat back stuff you (think you) can't kick, your feet and legs *never* learn how to hit it. If you don't use your hands, you get better at kicking, and soon find that there is virtually no footbag trajectory that you CAN'T hit. Especially one that's close enough that you can reach in with your hand. Not going for those ones with your feet - at least trying for it - is just lame, and beyond that, *bo-ring* ! jooooliet From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 19:31:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03524 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:31:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03520 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:31:36 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3517) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03515 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:31:35 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu ([129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06718 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:31:08 -0800 Received: from skull.cs.uidaho.edu (skull.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.108]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.1) with ESMTP id LAA00877; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by skull.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.0) with SMTP id LAA09507; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:31:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: skull.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Hillebrand To: "Steven L. Goldberg" cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] What is a Ripstein? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Ripstein (pronounced Rip-STINE, to rhyme with FrankenSTEIN) is a > double-swirl. In other words, the swirling leg goes around the bag twice > before stalling it, all in the cross-body position on the same side of the > body. > > Steve Holy Jesus! I can't even get a SINGLE swirl yet!! How does one do that? ******************************************************************************* Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 hootie AND phish blow ******************************************************************************* From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 20:07:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03755 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:07:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03749 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:07:22 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3745) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03743 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:07:16 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06933 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:06:18 -0800 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA06289 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:59:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:09:16 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] What is a Ripstein? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Matt Hillebrand wrote: >I can't even get a SINGLE swirl yet!! How does one do that? Very carefully. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 14 23:03:22 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04662 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:03:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04658 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:03:18 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4655) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04653 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:03:17 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08031 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:02:31 -0800 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18731; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:45:42 -0600 (CST) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id PAA20356; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:45:41 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:45:40 -0600 (CST) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Asmodeus cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New Footbagger In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970114092340.00670360@fox.nstn.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Asmodeus wrote: > Hi. > > I just started Hacking a couple of weeks ago and was wondering if anyone > could describe any simple "tricks" I could learn? I also have a question, > some of my friends that I hack with will bat the hacky-sack with their hand > if they don't think that they can get it with their foot. Whenever I try and > convince them that they should instead at least make an effort to get it > with their foot they think I'm being stupid. Can you come up with a > convincing argument against doing this? (You don't have to convince me, I > already would never use my hand). > > Steve > > In addition to Juliet's advice, you might tell your friends that , in the interest of self-preservation, they probably want to avoid putting their hands out for the bag because someone else in the circle may decide to go for it with a kick - hand meets foot. Ouch! I've seen it happen! Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 04:17:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA05992 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:17:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA05988 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:17:07 GMT Received: from scrouse@fox.nstn.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5985) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA05983 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:17:05 GMT Received: from Fox.nstn.ca (fox.nstn.ca [137.186.128.12]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10197 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:16:40 -0800 Received: from default (ts2-11.lwn.iSTAR.ca [137.186.23.143]) by Fox.nstn.ca (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA13990 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:16:27 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <32DCFFD9.18A3@fox.nstn.ca> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:03:37 -0400 From: Asmodeus Reply-To: scrouse@fox.nstn.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Thanks for all the replys Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thanks for all the replys. I'll make my own replys to all of them in this one message to save bandwidth. I've started hacking with mostly one other person, the only other person at school who is as obsessed as me. We work mostly on control and when I hack in a circle now ,although it is still annoying when someone grabs it, I take it as more of an opertunity to showboat in front of the people who don't take the time to practice as much, than a time to get better, but that's important to. I live in Nova Scotia, Canada. I go to school in an extremely small town at a small college. I am 18 and have been hacking seriously only since Christmas break ended, Jan 6. I can do a flying clipper fairly consistantly and every once in a while, if the hack is in a good postion, I can get off a flying butterfly. But those are basically the only tricks I know :( I use deck shoes when I hack and they seem to work pretty well. I have a few more questions. I try and use both feet as equally as possible, but still find myself using my right leg alot more than my left. Do most people always do the majority of their kicks with the same foot? I guess I was wrong, I can only think of 1 question right now. Thanks again for all your replys and I hope I answered all the questions asked of me in them. Steve (hacker wannabe) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 04:59:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06060 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:59:05 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06056 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:59:04 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6053) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA06051 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:59:04 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10338 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:58:41 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id X|K24395; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:57:23 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:23:03 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] New Footbagger Message-ID: <19970114.235505.3894.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9-10,12-14,16-17,19-22,24-26 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> I just started Hacking a couple of weeks ago and was wondering if anyone >> could describe any simple "tricks" I could learn? I also have a question, >> some of my friends that I hack with will bat the hacky-sack with their hand >> if they don't think that they can get it with their foot. Whenever I try and >> convince them that they should instead at least make an effort to get it >> with their foot they think I'm being stupid. Can you come up with a >> convincing argument against doing this? (You don't have to convince me, I >> already would never use my hand). >> >In addition to Juliet's advice, you might tell your friends that , in the >interest of self-preservation, they probably want to avoid putting >their hands out for the bag because someone else in the circle may decide to >go for it with a kick - hand meets foot. Ouch! I've seen it happen! >Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu Huh... once I doveon the middle of the circle to snag the bag on my shoulder and got kicked in the head. You'd better believe it happens... JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 17:29:59 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA08032 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:29:57 GMT Message-Id: <199701151729.RAA08032@eniac.yak.net.taz> From: freefloe@continet.com X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] being aware in circles Comment: Reposted to freestyle list by brat@footbag.org Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:19:09 -0800 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >go for it with a kick - hand meets foot. Ouch! I've seen it happen! >Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu >Josh Penny wrote: >Huh... once I doveon the middle of the circle to snag the bag on my >shoulder and got kicked in the head. You'd better believe it happens... Dennis told me about the time he was in a circle and watched Kevin Courtney (maker of the awesome footbag screen saver) go for a neck catch at the same time Reed Gray was going for a sole kick. Both these guys are big. Reed kicked Kevin under the chin. Kevin's teeth went flying and he landed on his butt. After hearig this I don't do neck catches into the center of circles. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 17:38:54 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA08082 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:38:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA08076 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:38:52 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8072) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08065; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:38:51 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA13515; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:38:33 -0800 Received: from [204.188.8.42] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA16103; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:31:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:38:53 -0800 To: footbag@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: [freestyle] Netiquette Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi everyone. Sorry to bug you but I see a pattern developing and I'd like to nip it in the bud if I can. Now that we have multiple mailing lists, it's vital that everyone remember which list is which when posting. When sending a new message, try to make sure you direct it to the list where it makes the most sense (see below). When replying or following up to a message on one of the lists, please look at the []'s in the subject line of the message you're referring to, and/or the To: and Cc: lines, before sending your message. Try to remember that those people who are on another list may not have seen any of the messages to which you're referring if you reply to the wrong list. The current global/public footbag lists are: footbag@footbag.org General Discussion (no freestyle) freestyle@footbag.org Freestyle Discussion Only announce@footbag.org Announcements Only (moderated) Also, it's significantly easier for people to follow various threads of discussion if you *reply* instead of creating a new message. The "Subject:" line, if used correctly (which most mailers do on replies) can help everyone tell which message relates to which topic. Either way, always take it upon yourself to verify the To: and Cc: lines of your outgoing mail before you send it. Thanks. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 17:58:21 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA08180 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:58:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA08176 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:58:20 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8173) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08171 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:58:20 GMT Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA13704 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:58:02 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11576 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:58:00 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC02CB.AA910A60@IBM2>; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:05:42 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC02CB.AA910A60@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] RE: [footbag] Freestyleiquette Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:05:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>The current global/public footbag lists are: >> footbag@footbag.org General Discussion (no freestyle) >> freestyle@footbag.org Freestyle Discussion Only >> announce@footbag.org Announcements Only (moderated) Hey, I think that the lists should be: footbag@footbag.org For Freestyle net@footbag.org For net, golf, etc... announce@footbag.org Announcements Only ( he he he ) :-) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 18:04:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA08247 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:04:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA08243 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:04:10 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8240) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA08238 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:04:08 GMT Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA13746 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:50 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA14119 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:48 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC02CC.79BD8A20@IBM2>; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:11:29 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC02CC.79BD8A20@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] New Footbagger Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:11:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Huh... once I doveon the middle of the circle to snag the bag on my >>shoulder and got kicked in the head. You'd better believe it happens... I was skoolin' paradox whirl with Peter Irish and Tim Kelly at Ghiradelli Square in downtown San Francisco, and I had my thumb sticking out, pointing straight down, and my whirling heel came straight up, and I jammed my thumb so hard it hurt for months !! The moral of the story is: uhhh, let's see.... ok, if you get your hands out there for long enough, your own body will punish you ! :-) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com Still not as dramatic as the teeth flying story... now my teeth hurt... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 18:14:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA08298 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:14:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA08294 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:14:50 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8291) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA08289 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:14:49 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA13794 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:14:31 -0800 Received: from [204.188.8.42] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA16725 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:07:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BC02CC.79BD8A20@IBM2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:10:43 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: RE: [freestyle] New Footbagger Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:11 AM -0800 1/15/97, Mike Niday wrote: >and my whirling heel came straight up, and I jammed my thumb Yeah, well I was minding my *own* business freestyling when a top freestyler (who shall remain nameless -- but not you, Mighty!) invaded my space and kicked my hand, jamming my thumb, which *still* hurts to this day. (So, Mike, how long does it take to heal? This happened to me in October...) So the moral of that story is, don't ever let your guard down, not even for one minute, cause some crazed lunatic freestyler might kick your thumb. ?? :-) Just kidding, whoever you are. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 18:25:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA08374 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:25:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA08370 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:25:26 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8367) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA08365 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:25:25 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA13839 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:25:07 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01125 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:25:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: [freestyle] Re: [footbag] being aware in circles From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:24:11 +0000 Message-Id: <000000099412936175851@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Jan 15, 1997, 5:19:09 PM GMT freefloe@continet.com wrote: >>Huh... once I doveon the middle of the circle to snag the bag on my >>shoulder and got kicked in the head. You'd better believe it happens... Jeff Haas was once going for a neck catch while I was pivoting into a hard outside kick. No teeth flying, but I did bruise his face. Neck catches just aren't a real good idea in a circle. BTW, does anybody have any info on Jeff Haas? He seems to have dropped of the face of our big footbag. Derrick Fogle Computer Support Services Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation 104 Portland, Columbia, MO 65201 VOX: 573-443-1471 FAX: 573-443-1657 dfogle@mlerf.org From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 19:04:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA08526 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:04:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA08522 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:04:21 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8519) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA08517 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:04:19 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13990 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:04:00 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02409 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:03:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: [freestyle] Collisions From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:03:04 +0000 Message-Id: <000000099452936178184@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Oh yeah. Let's not forget the time I was in Chicago, styling with Davidson = in a small basement room. He was shredding, drifting about the room, and = had pinned me against the wall. Then he did something like a blurry whirl = and whacked me right in the mouth with his contorted arm motion and = crimped up hand. (I guess I'll bring this up first, since Scott would be sure to anyway :) Derrick Fogle Computer Support Services Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation 104 Portland, Columbia, MO 65201 VOX: 573-443-1471 FAX: 573-443-1657 dfogle@mlerf.org From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 23:12:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09558 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:12:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09554 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:12:22 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9551) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA09549 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:12:21 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca ([207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15427 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:12:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA19354 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:11:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:10:53 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] being aware in circles In-Reply-To: <199701151729.RAA08032@eniac.yak.net.taz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 15 Jan 1997 freefloe@continet.com wrote: > >Josh Penny wrote: > >Huh... once I doveon the middle of the circle to snag the bag on my > >shoulder and got kicked in the head. You'd better believe it happens... Ouch!!, it's hard to imagine head injuries while playing a sport like footbag. I remember a few weeks ago I had a very painful injury... I did a double over down, and just as I was catching it with my left clipper foot, my right foot came down and landed *on top* of my clipper foot. After that, both my ankles collasped and I fell to the ground. I had another one just reciently, I did a dragonfly and my knee came up too high and ......well you get the picture! Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 23:23:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09627 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:23:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09623 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:23:10 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9620) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA09618 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:23:10 GMT Received: from oxywhite.interaccess.com (oxywhite.interaccess.com [207.208.45.100]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15510 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:22:55 -0800 Received: from [207.70.66.120] (d120.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.120]) by oxywhite.interaccess.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA04381; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:22:46 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:28:36 -0500 To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF), freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Collisions Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derrick and everyone! >Oh yeah. Let's not forget the time I was in Chicago, styling with Davidson >in a small basement room. He was shredding, drifting about the room, and >had pinned me against the wall. Then he did something like a blurry whirl >and whacked me right in the mouth with his contorted arm motion and >crimped up hand. >(I guess I'll bring this up first, since Scott would be sure to anyway :) Yes... I was gonna mention this. And it was a spinning whirl attempt (successful, BTW) and my contorted arm was locked at the elbow. It had to hurt. Sorry, again Derrick! See ya! Scott. Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 23:46:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09722 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:46:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09718 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:46:42 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9715) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA09713 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:46:41 GMT Received: from oxywhite.interaccess.com (oxywhite.interaccess.com [207.208.45.100]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15679 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:46:25 -0800 Received: from [207.70.66.120] (d120.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.120]) by oxywhite.interaccess.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA05155; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:46:19 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:52:09 -0500 To: Verhoef Anne , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] being aware in circles Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Here is one from the archives... The NSGA Show back in 1988 (I think) was a big one for footbag. Everyone was there, and it happened to be the biggest year for Proton. Tony Penisi invited just about everyone who had anything to do with footbag to demo at his show. (Others in town included: Greg Cortopassi, Ted Huff and John Stalberger, I believe.) It was a nice summer night, so we went out to dinner on Rush Street and had a good time kicking and eating and the like. After dinner, Tony had arranged a demo at a swank nearby club. On our way there, we had about 10 people walking down the crowded street and kicking while we walked. The footbag got a little out of control, and one of the founding members of the Midwest Footbag Assn., Jay Claffey, swung at it with a giant back kick... blind. He knocked a cigar squarely out of some guys mouth and into the street. We apologized. Boy, that was fun. That was right around the time that Kenny and myself simultaneously invented what is now known as Torque. But that was another story. See ya! Scott. Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 15 23:46:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09739 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:46:47 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09735 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:46:46 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9732) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA09730 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:46:45 GMT Received: from oxywhite.interaccess.com (oxywhite.interaccess.com [207.208.45.100]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15682 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:46:31 -0800 Received: from [207.70.66.120] (d120.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.120]) by oxywhite.interaccess.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA05159; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:46:24 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:52:13 -0500 To: genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] I love this sport! Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Daryl and Freestylers! If any of you haven't seen Daryl lately, he is full of this move called, I believe, "Miraging Same-Side Butterfly". Or that is what Daryl is calling it, I believe. Daryl was doing this move eloquently at XMAS Jam, in and out of everything... so I just thought I would let him that he is not alone. I have been skoolin' that move, and I would like to give it a better name than "Miraging Same-Side Butterfly". I was thinking it could be called "Stepping Butterfly" (not stomping, because this is much more delicate) and here is why. This Ripwalk-like mirage before the butterfly can be applied to many more moves than the butterfly. For instance, Blenders. And I am sure there are more. I would like the name to be applicable to other moves, and make sense as a naming convention for the future. i.e. Stepping Blender, Stepping Butterfly, Stepping Double Leg Over. It is a style, but in some cases (like the blender) it changes nothing on the cards, so is technically not different, even though they look nothing like each other. Daryl, what do you think of this? Everyone, what do you think? Other moves I've been skoolin': Mobius both sides Paradox Torque both sides StudderWalk ("Miraging Same-Side Butterfly" with an extra two steps in there) Spinning Ducking Butterfly Torque-Osis-Torque-Osis, Repeat Vortex both sides. Gyro Whirl both sides Gyro Butterfly both sides. Ripwalk to Cross-Body Sole (left only) Anyway, the "Miraging Same-Side Butterfly" is an AWESOME friggin move and I can't wait to apply that "Stepping" set to many more moves. (Thanks, Daryl for making me look at that move as something more than "the") I love this sport, because just when you think there is no more to learn, a brick hits you in the side of the head with a whole new family of moves comes flying in. Oh, and the people in the sport are the best, but if I said that everytime I posted, it would just sound like drivel. But they ARE the best! See ya! Scott Davidson P.S. Valeria and myself will be in Nashville, TN until Monday, if anyone wants to shred with us while we are there, call our voicemail at: 773-237-9255 and we will contact you. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 00:41:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA09971 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:41:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA09967 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:41:06 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9964) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA09962 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:41:05 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16107 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:40:49 -0800 Received: from port864-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port864-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.102]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA27968 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:43:50 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701160043.NAA27968@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:21:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [freestyle] Concert Shred Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, me and 2 friends have just organised to shred on a Stage at the NZ equivilent of Lollolopolooza, The Big Day OUt! :) There should be at least 20,000 people there, so we will be freaking and dropping the footbag everywhere.... excellent!! Some bands that are playing there is Offspring, Soundgarden, Fear Factory, The Prodigy... Its gonna go off!... And we scored free tickets.. so I aint complaining :) Just thought I'd let u all know that footbag is still alive in New Zealand :) Later PS. I said to the organiser on the phone "Im one of the guys doing the footbag demo".. he goes "whaaa"... so I say.."oh... the hacky sack demo"... he understood then.... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 02:25:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10403 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:25:04 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10399 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:25:02 GMT Received: from vern@lrbcg.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10396) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA10394 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:25:02 GMT Received: from portal.dx.net (portal.dx.net [199.190.65.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16786 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:24:44 -0800 Received: from s28.lrbcg.com (s28.lrbcg.com [206.162.39.28]) by portal.dx.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA23198 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:30:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:30:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970115212857.19ff0b3a@lrbcg.com> X-Sender: vern@lrbcg.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: The Shithouse Philosopher Subject: [freestyle] Terminology Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey people, I've been kickin' for a long time (sporadically unfortunately), but must have been in the Darklands. This is my sixth year kickin', and have no idea what you people are talking about half the time. Is there an easily accessible glossary I could get at somewhere? Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I know the reason why now. I live in Ohio. If anyone ever comes near Cedar Point and feels the need to kick, email me. We have quite a good crowd around here. Love and creativity all! Feel, then see. It's time to evolve. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 02:35:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10439 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:35:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10435 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:35:56 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10432) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA10430 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:35:55 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16920 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:35:41 -0800 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA24074 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:28:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:38:59 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] I love this sport! Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Scott Davidson wrote: >I would like to give it a better name >than "Miraging Same-Side Butterfly". I don't get it. I thought everyone called this move "Same-Side Ripwalk." Is that what you're referring to? I guess that name's not great, though. >I was thinking it could be called "Stepping Butterfly" Stepping sounds cool (but read on). >I would >like the name to be applicable to other moves, and make sense as a naming >convention for the future. i.e. Stepping Blender, Stepping Butterfly, >Stepping Double Leg Over. At first I thought you wanted "Stepping" to be the non-paradox equivalent to "Blurry". But now it sounds like you're saying something else. I don't like this part: >It is a style, but in some cases (like the >blender) it changes nothing on the cards In one case (butterfly) it's an extra dexterity, in another (blender) it's just a way of hitting the move. That's scary from my standpoint. I'd much rather see it be a consistent naming scheme. How about we just keep calling Same-Side Ripwalk by that name, and your other moves (i.e., Early-set-blender) just by their real names, i.e., Blender. Otherwise we'd get into nightmarish arguments over whether something was stepping or not when it didn't make any difference, like stepping osis versus torque, and the ambiguously-named stepping osis versus blender. Grr. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 02:38:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10464 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:38:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10460 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:38:39 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10457) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA10455 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:38:39 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16947 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:38:24 -0800 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA24107 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:31:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701160043.NAA27968@ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:41:37 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Concert Shred Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:21 AM -0800 1/16/97, The Sock wrote: >Well, me and 2 friends have just organised to shred on a Stage at the NZ >equivilent of Lollolopolooza, The Big Day OUt! :) Just say their names! It's you (Adrian), Stu, and Damian, right? >There should be at least 20,000 people there, so we will be freaking and >dropping the footbag everywhere.... excellent!! Naaaawww.. You guys will be busting Paradon Swirls and toe-set Blurs back and forth. :-) >Just thought I'd let u all know that footbag is still alive in New >Zealand :) Is it EVER! I highly recommend visiting these guys. :-) >PS. I said to the organiser on the phone "Im one of the guys doing >the footbag demo".. he goes "whaaa"... so I say.."oh... the hacky >sack demo"... he understood then.... Grr. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 02:39:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10481 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:39:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA10477 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:39:37 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10474) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA10472 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:39:36 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16958 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:39:23 -0800 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA24126; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:32:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970115212857.19ff0b3a@lrbcg.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:42:36 -0800 To: The Shithouse Philosopher From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Terminology Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:30 PM -0800 1/15/97, The Shithouse Philosopher wrote: >Hey people, >I've been kickin' for a long time (sporadically unfortunately), but must have >been in the Darklands. This is my sixth year kickin', and have no idea what >you people are talking about half the time. Is there an easily accessible >glossary I could get at somewhere? Yes -- http://www.footbag.org/faq/ >If anyone ever comes near Cedar Point and feels the need to kick, email me. >We have quite a good crowd around here. Love and creativity all! Great to see new players on the freestyle list! Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 04:32:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA10903 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:32:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA10899 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:32:25 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10896) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA10894 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:32:25 GMT Received: from juniper.Colorado.EDU (juniper.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.206]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA17487 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:32:12 -0800 Received: from juniper (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by juniper.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id VAA03126; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:31:54 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32DDAF39.10B5@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:31:53 -0700 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] I love this sport! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steven L. Goldberg wrote: > > Scott Davidson wrote: > >I would like to give it a better name > >than "Miraging Same-Side Butterfly". > Stepping sounds good to me. > I don't get it. I thought everyone called this move "Same-Side Ripwalk." > Is that what you're referring to? I guess that name's not great, though. Yes (I'm speaking for Scott here). But same side ripwalk isn't really fitting, because there's no "walk" to it, there are still 3 contacts after the set - but with ripwalk it's (it being the *sound* of the move = the footwork) more like set: one, two, three - whereas with the "stepping butterfly" it's just a set: one, two (the one is the "step"). > > >I was thinking it could be called "Stepping Butterfly" > > Stepping sounds cool (but read on). > > >I would > >like the name to be applicable to other moves, and make sense as a naming > >convention for the future. i.e. Stepping Blender, Stepping Butterfly, > >Stepping Double Leg Over. > > At first I thought you wanted "Stepping" to be the non-paradox equivalent > to "Blurry". But now it sounds like you're saying something else. Stepping is JUST miraging with an intentional double plant! NOT blurry, even though you could use the same set for a blur (or whatever blury move). > > I don't like this part: > > >It is a style, but in some cases (like the > >blender) it changes nothing on the cards > > In one case (butterfly) it's an extra dexterity, in another (blender) it's > just a way of hitting the move. That's scary from my standpoint. I'd much > rather see it be a consistent naming scheme. > I think maybe Scott was a little ahead of himself when he said stepping blender. It makes more sense if you say: *stepping osis* (equivelent to a blender with a step which is what I believe Scott was talking about) whereas *stepping blender* actually would be a *double* blender. > How about we just keep calling Same-Side Ripwalk by that name, and your > other moves (i.e., Early-set-blender) just by their real names, i.e., > Blender. Otherwise we'd get into nightmarish arguments over whether > something was stepping or not when it didn't make any difference, like > stepping osis versus torque, and the ambiguously-named stepping osis versus > blender. Grr. :-) OK, so a stepping osis is equivelent to a torque, and a stepping (new term added here:) *SWITCH* osis is equivelent to a blender (the switch meaning the bag swithed feet when going from set foot to catch foot) if we really want to get picky about it. You've also got stuff like stepping mirrage, equivelent to a barrage. Essentailly, stepping can be used just like the all popular POGO. You're ecact same argument above could also apply to pogo, except nobody has bothered to mention it, i.e., what's a pogo osis?? A symposium torque, or a funky looking blender????? At this point, according to our (backwards-assed ;->) naming system - nobody knows. > > Steve Daryl From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 19:50:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13322 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:50:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA13318 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:50:13 GMT Received: from 00201887@bigred.unl.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13315) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA13313 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:50:12 GMT Received: from bigred.unl.edu (bigred.unl.edu [129.93.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA04034 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:50:02 -0800 Received: (from 00201887@localhost) by bigred.unl.edu (8.8.4/8.8.2) id PAA20887 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:00:03 -0600 (CST) From: Theron A Troxel <00201887@bigred.unl.edu> Message-Id: <199701152100.PAA20887@bigred.unl.edu> Subject: [freestyle] being aware in cirles To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:00:03 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Just a quick question: What does loosing teeth and being kicked in various spots have to do with *FREESTYLE*? -- --------------------------- @ Theron Troxel \_|_/ 465-8363 | o UNLFC President /_\_ 00201887@bigred.unl.edu \ ------------------------------------- From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 20:34:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13512 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:34:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13508 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:33:59 GMT Received: from "tuanvu@erols.com"@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13505) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA13503 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:33:58 GMT Received: from mx04.erols.com (mx04.erols.com [205.252.116.114]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04178 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:33:52 -0800 Received: from tv ([207.96.125.212]) by mx04.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id PAA20658; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:33:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199701162033.PAA20658@mx04.erols.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:39:27 -0500 From: Tu Vu <"tuanvu@erols.com"@erols.com> Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Genz Daryl S CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] I love this sport! References: <32DDAF39.10B5@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Genz Daryl S wrote: > OK, so a stepping osis is equivelent to a torque, > and a stepping (new term added here:) *SWITCH* osis is equivelent to a > blender > (the switch meaning the bag swithed feet when going from set foot to > catch foot) > if we really want to get picky about it. Switch sounds very cool. Is this a new concept or part of this stepping stuff? > You've also got stuff like stepping mirrage, equivelent to a barrage. This reminds me of barrage block in team freestyle where one person sets it while the other person hoops and does a mirage with the same hooping leg. It also reminds me of pogo barrage! I really got to see this to understand it? Tu Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 20:42:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13565 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:42:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13558 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:42:01 GMT Received: from "tuanvu@erols.com"@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13552) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA13548 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:42:01 GMT Received: from mx04.erols.com (mx04.erols.com [205.252.116.114]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04221; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:41:54 -0800 Received: from tv ([207.96.125.212]) by mx04.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id PAA22059; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:41:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199701162041.PAA22059@mx04.erols.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:47:34 -0500 From: Tu Vu <"tuanvu@erols.com"@erols.com> Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: enlightener@footbag.org CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] I love this sport! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tu Vu wrote: > > Scott Davidson wrote: > > > Everyone, what do you think? > It sounds good to me but it reminds me of a couple of pogo tricks: pogo > barrage, shooting butterfly. I believe I have seen dozens of people do > this trick you described like I know Eric Wulff does this a lot. Scott, > can you explain the concept in more detail? Is it like a same side > ripwalk? > > > P.S. Valeria and myself will be in Nashville, TN until Monday, if anyone > > wants to shred with us while we are there, call our voicemail at: > > 773-237-9255 and we will contact you. > > If you can make your way to D.C. I'll love to jam with you. > > Tu HUge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 16 20:54:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13608 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:54:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA13604 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:54:07 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13601) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA13599 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:54:06 GMT Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04260 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:53:59 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA12641 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:53:58 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC03AD.68F69FB0@IBM2>; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:01:38 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC03AD.68F69FB0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] being aware in cirles Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:01:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>What does loosing teeth and being kicked in various spots have to do >>with *FREESTYLE*? It's part of the initiation ritual of the Big Add Posse... Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 17 08:08:36 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA16316 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:08:34 GMT Received: from knr@netcom.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for announce@majordomo.footbag.org (15176) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA15174 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:31:55 GMT Received: from tor-srs1.netcom.ca (tor-srs1.netcom.ca [207.93.1.148]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06327 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:31:51 -0800 Received: from capppknr by tor-srs1.netcom.ca (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA12538; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:31:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701170331.WAA12538@tor-srs1.netcom.ca> From: "Kevin Riemer & Sharon Speck" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Hivernal "Windchill" Tournament Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:31:32 -0500 Comment: Redirected to freestyle list by brat@footbag.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Planning to be at Montreal's Windchill Tournament, February 1 and 2? Competing freestyle? If you've answered yes to both questions, e-mail us and let us know. If you know others that aren't e-mail connected and will be attending, we'd like their names too. Yves promises the more freestylers, the better the venue. Looking forward to seeing you all in Montreal!! Sharon & Kevin From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 17 22:05:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02402 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:04:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02397 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:04:31 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2394) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02392 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:04:29 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11016 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:03:51 -0800 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15980; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:03:41 -0600 (CST) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id QAA28984; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:03:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:03:40 -0600 (CST) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Asmodeus cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Both feet; was: Thanks In-Reply-To: <32DCFFD9.18A3@fox.nstn.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Asmodeus wrote: snip > > I have a few more questions. I try and use both feet as equally as > possible, but still find myself using my right leg alot more than my > left. Do most people always do the majority of their kicks with the same > foot? I guess I was wrong, I can only think of 1 question right now. > Thanks again for all your replys and I hope I answered all the questions > asked of me in them. > > Steve (hacker wannabe) > It depends on who you talk to how important it is to equally use both feet. If you talk to me, it's extremely important. Also, it depends where you want to go with the sport. If you're just into hacking in circles & don't think you'll want to do much more than that, it may not be as important. But if you really want to learn to do some other stuff, get somewhere in consecutives or freestyle,say, then you really need to skool both feet & it's *much* easier if you do this from the beginning. You may have to work harder on your weak side at first - and it can be frustrating - but after a while you'll find the formerly weak side working just as smoothly as the other one. I've always made the attempt to learn everything I do both ways. There's my 2 cents on the subject. Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 17 22:40:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02690 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:40:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02686 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:40:36 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2683) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02681 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:40:36 GMT Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11260 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:39:58 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA19470 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:39:57 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0485.61877500@IBM2>; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:47:37 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC0485.61877500@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] RE: [footbag] being aware in circles Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:47:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Okay, airing a pet peeve. If a television camera crew was filming Kenny, >>then surely they had *good* footage of probably dozens of awesome combos >>they could have shown. Why did they pick the one time he fell to show on >>tv? Anyone can fall. Why didn't they focus on the stuff he did that not >>just anyone can do? >>Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu Don't *even* get me started on the media... Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 17 23:45:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA02977 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:45:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA02973 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:45:40 GMT Received: from brat@research.apple.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2970) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA02968 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:45:39 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11610 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:45:01 -0800 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA14341 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:38:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <32DCFFD9.18A3@fox.nstn.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:48:20 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Both feet; was: Thanks Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:03 PM -0800 1/17/97, Ida Bettis Fogle wrote: >skool both feet & it's *much* easier if you do this from the beginning. I concur -- the earlier you start using your bad side, the better. It's really hard to convince yourself to skool your bad side if your good side is hella better. This coming from a guy who's been considered "advanced" for years but has only recently really starting using his left. Thanks everyone for making me work on it. :-) I have so much more fun now. :-) But here's another method I use, which seems to work: When you want to learn your bad side (left) for any trick, try to do a trick you can do on your good side, and then *immediately* try it on the left. Somehow your brain is better at mirroring the motions if you do it on one side immediately followed by the other. In other words, if you have it reasonably mastered on your good side, do it on your good side once (or twice in a row) and then right away do it on the other side *instead* of just starting fresh on your bad side and drilling it. Reinforce the good behavior, think about every part of your body and where it is on your good side, and then force yourself to do the bad side right after, thinking the whole time about shifting everything to the other side -- your balance, you body position, how you have your legs bent, etc., etc. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 18 00:44:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03224 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:44:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03220 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:44:00 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3217) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03215 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:44:00 GMT Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11932 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:43:23 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA00171 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:42:50 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0496.8C0514C0@IBM2>; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:50:30 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC0496.8C0514C0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] RE: [footbag] being aware in circles Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:50:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >At 2:19 PM -0800 1/17/97, Ida Bettis Fogle wrote: >Okay, airing a pet peeve. If a television camera crew was filming Kenny, >then surely they had *good* footage of probably dozens of awesome combos >they could have shown. Why did they pick the one time he fell to show on >tv? Anyone can fall. Why didn't they focus on the stuff he did that not >just anyone can do? Then Steve Goldberg wrote: >>Well, Ida, we can't be too upset. The ESPN broadcast was definitely a >>*net*-centric show, which is fine because Net needs to be seen. Not every >>show can be about every aspect of the sport -- when that happens, usually, >>they dilute both sports. So this time they dissed freestyle a little (but >>not a lot, actually). So we win some, we lose some. Or, for every action >>there's an equal and opposite reaction. Or you get what you pay for. Or a >>penny saved is a penny earned. Oh, sorry. :-) OK, that's it - I'm started. :-o :-) So, did ESPN show a little freestyle with people falling on their face, and then show a lot of net with people falling on their face??? NO !!! They were trying to draw a contrast (in my opinion) between what they think is a (barely) acceptable sport (net), and a wacky punk-kid sport (freestyle) ! *That's* the image that they have, and it really upsets me. It just shows their total ignorance. Like Scott Davidson said, Freestyle is *so* much harder than net, but net, like sooooooo many other sports (soccer, football, baseball, etc.) can gain instant popularity. Why? The shallow learning curve, of course! "Hey, everybody can do it!" "Let's not run too much footage of something that we could *never* do, so we assume that the general population can never do either!" But they turn right around, "Hey, let's be sure to air that gymnastics competition", or, "that ice skating competition". It just doesn't make any sense... Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 18 01:36:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA03437 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 01:36:08 GMT Message-Id: <199701180136.BAA03437@eniac.yak.net.taz> From: Mike Niday To: "'Steven L. Goldberg'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Both feet Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:00:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>When you want to learn your bad side (left) for any trick, try to do a >>trick you can do on your good side, and then *immediately* try it on the >>left. Somehow your brain is better at mirroring the motions if you do it >>on one side immediately followed by the other. In other words, if you have >>it reasonably mastered on your good side, do it on your good side once (or >>twice in a row) and then right away do it on the other side *instead* of >>just starting fresh on your bad side and drilling it. Reinforce the good >>behavior, think about every part of your body and where it is on your good >>side, and then force yourself to do the bad side right after, thinking the >>whole time about shifting everything to the other side -- your balance, you >>body position, how you have your legs bent, etc., etc. >>Steve I *totally* agree with this. This technique has worked *wonders* for my game. Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com P.S. I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 18 08:09:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04569 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:09:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04565 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:09:15 GMT Received: from vern@lrbcg.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4562) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA04560 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:09:08 GMT Received: from portal.dx.net (portal.dx.net [199.190.65.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA13629 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:08:34 -0800 Received: from s15.lrbcg.com (s15.lrbcg.com [206.162.39.15]) by portal.dx.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA11657 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 03:14:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 03:14:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970118031301.1d57289e@lrbcg.com> X-Sender: vern@lrbcg.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: The Shithouse Philosopher Subject: Re: [freestyle] RE: [footbag] being aware in circles Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>>Okay, airing a pet peeve. If a television camera crew was filming Kenny, >>>then surely they had *good* footage of probably dozens of awesome combos >>>they could have shown. Why did they pick the one time he fell to show on >>>tv? Anyone can fall. Why didn't they focus on the stuff he did that not >>>just anyone can do? > >>>Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu > >Don't *even* get me started on the media... The sport is a bit too open minded, harmony inducing, and peaceful. Thus, it doesn't sell. Nothing that brings people together is condoned by the media. We're supposed to sit in front of our computer screens and be happy and complacent. There's an inherent paradox in this, but it has nothing to do with kickin'. So, I'll digress with the four cents... Feel, then see. It's time to evolve. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 19 04:46:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA08047 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 04:46:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA08043 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 04:46:27 GMT Received: from hungchang@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8040) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA08038 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 04:46:26 GMT Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA18345 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:45:59 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay4.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id XAA11557; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA18065; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:46:10 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA853652864; Sat, 18 Jan 97 20:34:00 PST Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 20:34:00 PST From: "HungChang" Message-Id: <9700188536.AA853652864@ca.slr.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle on ESPN Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mike Niday wrote: >So, did ESPN show a little freestyle with people falling on their >face, and then show a lot of net with people falling on their face??? ... >Davidson said, Freestyle is *so* much harder than net, but net, like >sooooooo many other sports (soccer, football, baseball,etc.) can gain >instant popularity. Why? The shallow learning curve, of course! .... > But they turn right around, "Hey, let's be sure to air that >gymnastics competition", or, "that ice skating competition". It >just doesn't make any sense... What in the world are you talking about, Mike ?! First of all, you totally contradicted yourself by blaming the lack of attention on freestyle due to its difficulties, and then compare it to the popularity of gymnastics and ice skating. The main reason freestyle is not attracting attention at the pro level is due to its visual presentation. Most non-footbaggers and many footbaggers can't tell the difference between a 5-add move and 2-add move other than that the legs are moving faster. They also have trouble differentiating different tricks. The other reason is that the bag is stalled low to the ground while eye level is better for attention getting (i.e. juggling). Also freestyling is rather static with the person standing in one spot most of the time. And of course you guys are all familiar with the inevitable drops. As far as "Freestyle is *so* much harder that net", you are comparing apples and oranges. You are also the first person I have heard to say that net has a shallow learning curve. Net has a steep learning curve like tennis. I just read somewhere that 60% of those that tried tennis quit because it's too hard. In my past 2 years with BAFL, many players try net and quit. I see many novice players can't even get a rally going, while intermediate have a very hard time with consistent bumps, sets, and spikes. Did you also see how many shanks were shown during the net coverage? Too many in other's opinion, however IMO it reflect the true nature of footbag net. Net is visually exciting, but it also has its problem, the small size of the ball, the shanks, and sometimes non-impressive spikes. BTW, Takraw is a great example of a visually exciting sport that net can emulate. Thumbs up to the Unbelievable Sport coverage. Hung in SJ,CA p.s. Mike, you should come out to play some net and show us how easy it is. :) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 19 17:50:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA09642 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:50:46 GMT Received: from "tuanvu@erols.com"@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (9484) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA09482 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:19:26 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20962 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:19:06 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as2s05.erols.com [207.172.127.89]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id LAA23660; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:21:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199701191621.LAA23660@mx05.erols.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:26:24 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: HungChang CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle on ESPN References: <9700188536.AA853652864@ca.slr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org HungChang wrote: > In my past 2 years with > BAFL, many players try net and quit. I see many novice players >can't > even get a rally going, while intermediate have a very hard time >with > consistent bumps, sets, and spikes. Did you also see how many shanks > were shown during the net coverage? Don't even dare compare the many shanks on the net finals on the ESPN spot to the 15 second shot of freestyle with Kenny dropping the very hard move(scorpions tail) and Peter Irish catching the footbag on the top of his head. At least they showed a few cool spikes in the net but they only showed one really hard freestyle move, Kenny doing a whirling swirl. I think it's great that they showed some excellent net footage btu with the announcer saying, "Everyone is fimilar with the freestyle event but few have seen the high flying net game," it makes freestyle look bad and net look good. > Net is visually exciting, but it also has its problem, the >small > size of the ball, the shanks, and sometimes non-impressive >spikes. > p.s. Mike, you should come out to play some net and show us how easy > it is. :) I don't think Mike every said anything about net being easier. All of footbag is hard. That's why this sport is not popular. I have seen TOO many people try to play net or freestyle and quit because "It's too hard" and "I'm not good enough". And yes you are right saying net is more visually appealing because it's more at eye level. ESPN did a good job showing net and a good job showing that at least freestyle exsists. TOO HUge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 19 18:06:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA09735 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:06:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA09731 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:06:46 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9728) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA09726 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:06:44 GMT Received: from [17.127.18.180] ([17.127.18.180]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21375 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:06:19 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701191621.LAA23660@mx05.erols.com> References: <9700188536.AA853652864@ca.slr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:05:58 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle on ESPN Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:26 AM -0800 1/19/97, Tu Vu wrote: >Don't even dare compare the many shanks on the net finals on the ESPN >spot to the 15 second shot of freestyle with Kenny dropping the very >hard move(scorpions tail) and Peter Irish catching the footbag on the >top of his head.... >......it makes freestyle look bad and net look good. Who cares? You guys are picking nits. The ESPN coverage clearly focussed on the singles net game -- we can complain for days and days (and I'm sure we will) about the other games not covered. For example, I'd personally like to see them cover doubles net more than singles net, and obviously I'd like to see freestyle treated better. But the fact is we have to take what we can get. If you realize they were only interested in singles net, and you factor out the video that doesn't relate to it, what's left is a nice piece that really shows singles net to be a cool sport. If I was going go to complain about that coverage, I'd say they needed more cameras and/or they should've been less creative with their photographic technique -- the way they followed the ball up and down from the post was dizzying and annoying. But all in all the coverage was great. Freestyle will be undoubtedly spotlighted in another show somewhere (I know I'm personally always trying to get that to happen, sometimes with more success than others). By the way, I helped set up the MTV coverage (thanks to a lot of other people eventually pointing them to me) and in that segment, they clearly focussed on freestyle (again, even that had problems). Within that story (albeit only 1 minute long total) there was a reference to the net game, and honestly that coverage made net look kind of uninteresting (I gave them the footage of net, so maybe the angry net players should all pounce on me). But at least they showed it. That's the nature of the game with the media -- they're *very* myopic and like to try to focus on one thing at a time. So if you get bent out of shape at all the things they could have done in a story, you'll go crazy. (Yes, I've gone crazy too many times. :-)) >ESPN did a good >job showing net and a good job showing that at least freestyle exsists. Yes. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 19 22:42:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA10493 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:42:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA10488 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:42:53 GMT From: kuchma@golden.net Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10481) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA10478 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:42:52 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA22444 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:42:34 -0800 Received: from [207.216.76.106] (cisco6-106.golden.net [207.216.76.106]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA04220 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:42:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:56:03 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] BAP Raw Shred video Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Does anybody know how to classify the trick Kenny Shults does at the end of the BAP Raw Shred video? It looks like a symposium paradox whirling swirl (7 adds I guess). -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 19 23:24:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA10868 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:24:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA10864 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:24:39 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10861) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA10859 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:24:37 GMT Received: from mx02.erols.com (mx02.erols.com [205.252.116.70]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22616 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:24:20 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as34s23.erols.com [207.172.117.191]) by mx02.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id SAA20030; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:24:07 -0500 Message-ID: <32E2AE73.EF0@erols.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:29:55 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kuchma@golden.net CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] BAP Raw Shred video References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org kuchma@golden.net wrote: > > Does anybody know how to classify the trick Kenny Shults does at the end of > the BAP Raw Shred video? It looks like a symposium paradox whirling swirl > (7 adds I guess). It's a blurry whirling swirl and it's six adds. TU HUge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 03:35:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA11756 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:35:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA11752 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:35:20 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11749) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA11747 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:35:19 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23592 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:35:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA24597; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:34:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:34:12 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne To: kuchma@golden.net cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] BAP Raw Shred video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 kuchma@golden.net wrote: > Does anybody know how to classify the trick Kenny Shults does at the end of > the BAP Raw Shred video? It looks like a symposium paradox whirling swirl > (7 adds I guess). > > -- Kuch > The very last trick in Raw Shred that Kenny does is a blurry (paradox) whirling swirl. 6 adds. Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 03:54:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA11792 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:54:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA11788 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:54:24 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11785) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA11783 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:54:24 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23714 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:54:09 -0800 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.4/8.8.3/SAS.03) id WAA23660 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:54:05 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Message-Id: <199701200354.WAA23660@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Difference in sets To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:54:04 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org If I remember correctly, in a competition it does not matter where the footbag is set from, only what you do after the set. An example would be that there is no difference between a clipper set mirage an a toe set mirage. You do not get a unique dexterity for the second of the two. Is that right? Does that mean that in a competition a pixie is the same as a mirage, and that an around-the-world is the same as a leg-over? The only difference between these moves is the location of the set. Anyways, jsut occured to me that if this is true, it would be very silly indeed, cause that would have major repurcussions for higher up moves (i.e. smear = blur) Thanks in advance. Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 08:44:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA14560 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:44:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA14556 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:44:11 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14553) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA14551 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:44:10 GMT Received: from [17.127.19.212] ([17.127.19.212]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA25095; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:43:55 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701200354.WAA23660@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:44:08 -0800 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Difference in sets Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:54 PM -0800 1/19/97, Alessandre S Naro wrote: You do not get a unique dexterity for the second of the two. >Is that right? That's right. >Does that mean that in a competition a pixie is the same as a mirage, and >that an around-the-world is the same as a leg-over? The only difference >between these moves is the location of the set. Well, first of all you're talking about "pixie nothing", which is a mirage. So I don't have a problem with that. If you do an around-the-world from out to in, it looks a lot like a legover and officially yes, it's the same move, but I fully agree that it's different (because you switch feet) and most judges (all?) would count it differently because both moves are well known and nobody thinks of them as the same. >Anyways, jsut occured to me that if this is true, it would be very silly >indeed, cause that would have major repurcussions for higher up moves >(i.e. smear = blur) Blur is different because it has the *paradox* element (yeah, let's get back into that debate!!). A pixie paradox mirage (aka "smear") doesn't. However, the big question I have is whether or not a toe-set blur (two full mirages in a row -- not pixie) is paradox; obviously it doesn't currently fit any of the definitions. Whoops -- rathole! That's the paradox debate. :-) I'd like to see us augment the existing system to somehow take into account all aspects of footwork required to hit a move. It shouldn't be about the set but about what you have to do to hit the move -- that was the original thinking for the current system, and I like it, but it's clearly missing a couple of things. What I see a need for is a concept of planting, when it happens, and if/when you switch feet thus causing you to deal with balance and timing issues. These aren't in the current system. I think they should be. They'd basically represent two new add categories. Get rid of "delays", and introduce "plants" and "shifts". Stomping moves would be worth more, as are blurs, than their non-planting analogs -- both would get adds in the "plant" category. And then paradox might map into the "shift" add.. Okay so it's just a dream. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 09:41:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA14677 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:41:51 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA14673 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:41:49 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14670) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA14668 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:41:49 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA25961; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:41:33 -0800 Received: from port917-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port917-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.155]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16003; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:44:28 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701200944.WAA16003@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: Steve Goldberg Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:03:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Difference in sets CC: freestyle@footbag.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Steve :) > >Does that mean that in a competition a pixie is the same as a mirage, and > >that an around-the-world is the same as a leg-over? The only difference > >between these moves is the location of the set. > > Well, first of all you're talking about "pixie nothing", which is a mirage. I think a pixie nothing is a switchover, because one leg isnt miraging it, its setting and circling it... > They'd basically represent two new add categories. Get rid of "delays", > and introduce "plants" and "shifts". Stomping moves would be worth more, > as are blurs, than their non-planting analogs -- both would get adds in the > "plant" category. And then paradox might map into the "shift" add.. Okay > so it's just a dream. I agree that there should be a method of rewarding points to extra plants, because of the extra time required. Comparing moves like: Eggbeater and Scrambled Eggbeater Pixie Mirage and Toe Set Blur Paradon and Stomping Paradon I guess ducking and diving could be thrown into the same category...as they arent a specific element but they make the move MUCH harder to hit... Maybe we should start splitting Adds :) Adrian. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 11:08:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA14895 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:08:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA14891 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:08:51 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (14888) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA14886 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:08:48 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA26252 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:08:31 -0800 Received: from port926-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port926-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.164]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10937; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:11:27 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701201111.AAA10937@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:30:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [freestyle] **Latest Online Footbag Move List** CC: the_sock@ihug.co.nz Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Greetings fellow Shredders! After much work by myself and Damian Coventry, Methinks its time to advertise our latest footbag freestyle moves list. Here you will find everything from Toe Delays to Pogo Voodoo! You will find it at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~the_sock/moves.htm Heres its features: - Over 180 Different Moves - Total adds for each move - A Breakdown of each Add contained in a move - Concise description of how to do each move - Complex description of how to do most moves - Definitions of each Add, and some concepts Comments, Critisisms, Insults, and Hate Mail all welcome :) Adrian Dick. Co-Sultan of the AFFC. the_sock@ihug.co.nz From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 15:40:06 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15418 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:39:50 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15414 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:39:48 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15411) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15409 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:39:47 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27045 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:39:37 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as29s26.erols.com [207.172.118.26]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id KAA27801; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:42:53 -0500 Message-ID: <32E39325.8C7@erols.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:45:41 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alessandre S Naro CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Difference in sets References: <199701200354.WAA23660@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Howdy Alex, > If I remember correctly, in a competition it does not matter where the > footbag is set from, only what you do after the set. An example would > be that there is no difference between a clipper set mirage an a toe set > mirage. You do not get a unique dexterity for the second of the two. > Is that right? That's right. > Does that mean that in a competition a pixie is the same as a mirage, and > that an around-the-world is the same as a leg-over? The only difference > between these moves is the location of the set. > > Anyways, jsut occured to me that if this is true, it would be very silly > indeed, cause that would have major repurcussions for higher up moves > (i.e. smear = blur) Alex, there are exceptions to the rule like around the world is a unique move to leg-over. Although the dex. are the same they are considered different moves. Smear is totally different than blur. You know blur is a unique move because there is a pardox element and there's none on smear. Any more scenarios? If you have any more questions on competeing, don't hesitate to drop a line. Tu Huge tuanvu@erols.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 15:58:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15478 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15471 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:24 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15465) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15463 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:23 GMT Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA27104 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:58:13 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA29864 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:58:10 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC06A8.C0958CB0@IBM2>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:05:51 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC06A8.C0958CB0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle on ESPN Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:39:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> First of all, you totally contradicted yourself by blaming the lack >> of attention on freestyle due to its difficulties, and then compare it >> to the popularity of gymnastics and ice skating. What I'm doing here is trying to point out the contradiction of the MEDIA by drawing a contrast between them *wanting* to show a difficult sport like gymnastics and ice skating, and *not wanting* to show a difficult sport like footbag freestyle. >> Net has a steep learning curve like tennis. During the last 5 years that I've been playing freestyle seriously, I've seen countless people show up to the jams knowing *nothing*, and now are playing good net. During those same 5 years I can count on one hand the number of people that have done the same for freestyle. >> p.s. Mike, you should come out to play some net and show us how easy >> it is. :) You know, I posted this same opinion last year on the internet, and got almost exactly the same response - isn't the internet great??? :-) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 15:58:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15485 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15473 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:24 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15469) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15462 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:23 GMT Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA27106 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:58:13 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA02204 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:58:12 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC06A8.C1BF8DC0@IBM2>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:05:53 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC06A8.C1BF8DC0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle on ESPN Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:44:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Freestyle will be undoubtedly spotlighted in another show somewhere (I know >>I'm personally always trying to get that to happen, sometimes with more >>success than others). >>Steve You're right Steve. It's just that sometimes I get in such a gripey mood... :-o :-) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 15:58:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15501 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA15491 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:27 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15484) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15481 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:58:26 GMT Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA27110 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:58:15 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA19145 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:58:14 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC06A8.C28F60E0@IBM2>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:05:54 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC06A8.C28F60E0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] BAP Raw Shred video Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:46:53 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Does anybody know how to classify the trick Kenny Shults does at the end of >>the BAP Raw Shred video? It looks like a symposium paradox whirling swirl >>(7 adds I guess). Blurry Whirling Swirl. Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 16:02:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA15547 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:02:47 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA15543 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:02:46 GMT Received: from swingert@creighton.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15540) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA15538 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:02:45 GMT Received: from bluejay.creighton.edu (bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA27146 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:02:24 -0800 Received: from [147.134.107.135] (kie135.creighton.edu) by bluejay.creighton.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA017786130; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:02:10 -0600 X-Sender: swingert@bluejay.creighton.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:10:10 -0600 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: swingert@creighton.edu (Sean Wingert) Subject: [freestyle] Motion in Freestyle Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org "HungChang" wrote: >Also freestyling is rather static with the > person standing in one spot most of the time. Hung, although I agree with most of your other commentary, I don't agree with this piece. Freestyle is anything but "static." Removing motion from freestyle is like playing tennis without a raquet - ridiculous. - Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 16:29:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA15658 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:29:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA15654 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:29:18 GMT Received: from ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15651) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA15649 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:29:17 GMT Received: from lotusbio.giv.com (lotusbio.giv.com [207.42.159.10]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA27224 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:29:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199701201629.IAA27224@Market.NET> Received: from ecrvich ([207.42.156.162]) by lotusbio.giv.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA071867743; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:29:03 -0500 X-Sender: ecrvich@lotusbio.giv.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:19:56 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] **Latest Online Footbag Move List** Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:30 AM 1/21/97 +0000, The Sock wrote: >After much work by myself and Damian Coventry, Methinks its time to >advertise our latest footbag freestyle moves list. Here you will >find everything from Toe Delays to Pogo Voodoo! > >You will find it at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~the_sock/moves.htm I must say this is very nice work! The format and descriptions are just the way it should be done. Well done, guys! It's definitely in my bookmarks! 8-) -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich #8^i Durham, NC Footbag Freestyle: Give your feet a challenge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 17:04:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA15766 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:04:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA15762 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:03:59 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15759) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA15757 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:03:58 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27347 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:03:48 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04644 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:03:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Difference in sets From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:03:01 +0000 Message-Id: <000000101182936602981@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, Jan 20, 1997, 8:44:08 AM GMT Steve Goldberg wrote: >Blur is different because it has the *paradox* element (yeah, let's get >back into that debate!!). I thought that debate was laid to rest for the remainder of our generation of footbag players. This is the result: Paradox: Body add. Requires that: set is cross-body; setting leg performs mirage or reverse mirage; final contact must either be the non-setting foot, or setting foot using cross-body concact. NOTE: Paradox is given an add in the body category for the unique double hip rotation / double momentum change required to execute the move. However, the definition requires specific foot/leg motions and positions so the move can be a clearly definable composition element. BODY: (insert all original definition text here); and all moves that fit the paradox definition (see paradox). Even though I disagree with this, it is what will show up in the rulebook unless a majority of IFAB members disagree. This is what everyone seems to believe/agree with, besides perhaps Steve and I. Note: the "note" in paradox definition is something I finally came up with because no one else who was arguing for this could come up with a (semi)sound reason to call a paradox a body add when the definition is based on leg motions/foot path constraints. I hope you like it (smirk!). Derrick Fogle Computer Support Services Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation 104 Portland, Columbia, MO 65201 VOX: 573-443-1471 FAX: 573-443-1657 dfogle@mlerf.org From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 17:16:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA15825 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:16:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA15819 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:16:16 GMT From: kuchma@golden.net Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (15816) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA15814 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:16:15 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27407 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:16:06 -0800 Received: from [207.6.168.53] (cisco1-53.golden.net [207.6.168.53]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA21489 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:15:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:29:39 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Freestyle 1st Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> Net has a steep learning curve like tennis. Although I agree that net does have a steep learning curve, I think that one must first become at least somewhat good at freestyle before giving net a try. The coordination etc. of freestyle translates over to net skills. For a "rookie" rookie (ie: first time even kicking a bag) net would be a lot more discouraging since a first-time freestyler will eventually get a few consecutive kicks, whereas the first-time net player will deal with shank after shank. This is not to say that a person must start pulling off 4 & 5 add moves before giving net a try.. however, I still think that any kicker must learn the basics of freestyle before trying net. -- Kuch p.s.: thanks to everybody who told me what kenny's trick was E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 19:07:29 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA16604 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:07:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA16600 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:07:26 GMT From: freefloe@continet.com Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16597) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA16595 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:07:26 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (WWW.FINF.COM [206.58.168.226]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA27934 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:07:18 -0800 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.168.80]) by falcon.continet.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10248) with SMTP id AAA76 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:22:15 -0800 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:22:15 -0800 Message-ID: <19970120192214522.AAA76@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Just a few comments... I think it's interesting that most folks commenting on whether Net is harder to learn than freestyle and vice-versa don't compete or train in both events. I think they actually take a similar amount of time, (hour for hour) to develop proficiency, though the way you practice for each is very different (as Hung says like comparing apples to oranges). Mike Niday wrote: >During the last 5 years that I've been playing freestyle seriously, I've seen >countless people show up to the jams knowing *nothing*, and now are >playing good net. During those same 5 years I can count on one hand the >number of people that have done the same for freestyle. Are you serious?? There are countless new freestylers who are hittting LOTS of very crazy and difficult tricks. Ryan Mulroney, Ahren German and are good examples. Mike is another example...where did you come from?? In my opinion there are fewer net players who can compete well in the open categories within 5 years. Ultimately, I think it is counterproductive to our sport for us to be arguing over which event is better, harder, or which should get more or less press, etc...Each event offers something different both to the players and spectators. swirling whirled peas to all, becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 19:45:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA16886 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:45:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA16882 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:45:12 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (16879) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA16877 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:45:11 GMT Received: from [17.127.19.212] ([17.127.18.15]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28118 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:45:01 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970120192214522.AAA76@LOCALNAME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:36:33 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:22 AM -0800 1/20/97, freefloe@continet.com wrote: >Mike Niday wrote: >>During the last 5 years that I've been playing freestyle seriously, I've seen >>countless people show up to the jams knowing *nothing*, and now are >>playing good net. During those same 5 years I can count on one hand the >>number of people that have done the same for freestyle. > >Are you serious?? There are countless new freestylers who are hittting LOTS >of very crazy and difficult tricks. I agree, Becca.. Sorry Mike but you're full of it on this point! There are *sooo* many more new freestylers than net players. I know 'cause I personally teach osis to all of them. :-) In addition to the success stories Becca mentioned, there are so many more names I can't begin, but I'll point out that most of the vocal members of this very list have really only been playing freestyle for a year or two. (And I can count at least 25 up-and-coming freestylers who I met for last year who I didn't know the year before, and who could hit Blur when I met them. Four years ago, there weren't 25 people on the planet who could hit Blur. That is growth, my friend. Ask me how many up-and-coming net players I met last year who could do a serious Toe Jam? Probably about 5, and believe me, they weren't hitting Blur. :-)) Do you see a net-only discussion list on majordomo at all? I don't think so. :-) If anyone was going to complain about anything, it'd be about the dominance of the old guard in net, and how difficult it is to get new net players trained because of the egocentricity built into net. :-) That's one thing freestyle has going for it -- because of the nature of the circle, as long as you don't have too many people in the circle, you don't really mind playing with new players. But in net, it drags the game down, making it hard for pros to want to train with new players. I kind of wish we could find balance this way. And in both cases people do often bail because they get frustrated -- both with net and freestyle. However, recently, with kids learning younger and younger and being exposed to both games more and more, it's really starting to take off. (I.e., the number of people who stick with it is increasing faster than the old fogies are retiring, in both sports, but especially in freestyle.) >Ultimately, I think it is counterproductive to our sport for us to be >arguing over which event is better, harder, or which should get more or less >press, etc...Each event offers something different both to the players and >spectators. Ditto. I hope nothing I said above was particularly inflammatory. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 22:02:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA17530 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:02:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA17526 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:02:44 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17523) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA17521 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:02:43 GMT Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com ([206.214.98.11]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28729 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:02:36 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA16653 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:01:54 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC06DB.8FDAFFF0@IBM2>; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:09:34 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC06DB.8FDAFFF0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:59:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>I agree, Becca.. Sorry Mike but you're full of it on this point! Ok, maybe I can count the new freestylers with *two* hands... :-) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 22:42:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA17783 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:42:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA17779 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:42:45 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17776) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA17774 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:42:45 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28887 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:42:38 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RiU09172; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:42:25 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:39:06 PST Subject: [freestyle] freestyle move? Message-ID: <19970120.173957.8550.3.dervish@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. What have I done? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 22:49:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA17810 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:49:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA17806 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:49:25 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (17803) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA17801 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:49:25 GMT Received: from cedar.Colorado.EDU (cedar.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.202]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28913 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:49:18 -0800 Received: from cedar (genz@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cedar.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA04063; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:49:04 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32E3F65E.95B@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:49:02 -0700 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? References: <19970120.173957.8550.3.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. > right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. > > What have I done? > > JP A spinning mirage. Three adds. (Even though I think it should be paradox ;->). Daryl Genz From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 23:07:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18009 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:07:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18005 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:07:21 GMT From: kuchma@golden.net Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18002) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17999 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:07:20 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA28999 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:07:13 -0800 Received: from [199.166.210.100] (swo-100.golden.org [199.166.210.100]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA02049 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:07:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:20:49 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Laver Modifications Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What is the general thought about removing the foam from underneath the tongue (at the end of the toe)? The instructions on the webpage treat this as an optional modification, but how helpful is it? Also, are there any other modifications that others have discovered not listed at the website? Thanks! =) -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 23:16:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18081 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:16:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18077 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:16:46 GMT From: kuchma@golden.net Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18074) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA18072 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:16:45 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29045 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:16:35 -0800 Received: from [199.166.210.100] (swo-100.golden.org [199.166.210.100]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA03242 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:16:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:30:12 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] new move? ('solsis'?) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. > right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. > >What have I done? > >JP My mind's a little fuzzy on terminology, but it sounds to me like a mirage (set from a clipper) with a spin. Now I'm going to describe this: set bag *high* and slightly to the left from an inside or toe delay (like an osis), spin right, sole delay (it essentially seems like an osis caught in a cross-body sole delay instead of a regular cross body delay) E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 23:29:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18146 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:29:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18142 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:29:17 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18139) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA18137 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:29:16 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu ([129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29086 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:29:09 -0800 Received: from skull.cs.uidaho.edu (skull.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.108]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.1) with ESMTP id PAA23486; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by skull.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.0) with SMTP id PAA23255; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:29:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: skull.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:29:07 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Hillebrand To: Josh Penney cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? In-Reply-To: <19970120.173957.8550.3.dervish@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. > right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. > > What have I done? Sounds like a paradox mirage to me.......what exactly do you mean by 'spin'? ******************************** Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 hootie AND phish blow ******************************** From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 23:40:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18201 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:40:04 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18197 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:40:03 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18194) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA18192 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:40:03 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29129 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:39:57 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SQO09172; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:39:13 EST To: genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:36:50 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? Message-ID: <19970120.183655.8550.6.dervish@juno.com> References: <19970120.173957.8550.3.dervish@juno.com> <32E3F65E.95B@bechtel.colorado.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-16 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:49:02 -0700 Genz Daryl S writes: >Josh Penney wrote: >> Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. >> right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. >> What have I done? > >A spinning mirage. Three adds. >(Even though I think it should be paradox ;->). > Okay, Daryl; let's say I do the same move into osis. Spinning torque? How about a gyro mirage dex before the spun mirage? Gyro Blur? paradox? yes, no, why? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 23:42:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18226 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:42:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18222 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:42:08 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18219) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA18217 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:42:07 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu ([129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29160 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:42:01 -0800 Received: from coffee.cs.uidaho.edu (coffee.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.77]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.1) with ESMTP id PAA23615; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by coffee.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.0) with SMTP id PAA07249; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:41:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: coffee.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:41:58 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Hillebrand To: kuchma@golden.net cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] new move? ('solsis'?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > set bag *high* and slightly to the left from an inside or toe delay (like > an osis), spin right, sole delay > > (it essentially seems like an osis caught in a cross-body sole delay > instead of a regular cross body delay) That name sounds cool! When I was in high school, I loved to kick footbags, but I never knew about WFA or footbag.org. I really thought that I invented a move: set bag to outside, twist the hell out of your ankle and carry the footbag into a clipper stall on your other side. Turns out it was just a deformed osis. Now I call it the Frosis (Fro is my nickname :) ******************************** Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 hootie AND phish blow ******************************** From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 20 23:50:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18285 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:50:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA18281 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:50:48 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18278) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA18276 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:50:48 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29190 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:50:41 -0800 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18933; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:49:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:49:27 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne To: kuchma@golden.net cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] new move? ('solsis'?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 kuchma@golden.net wrote: > >Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. > > right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. > > > >What have I done? > > > >JP > > My mind's a little fuzzy on terminology, but it sounds to me like a mirage > (set from a clipper) with a spin. > > > Now I'm going to describe this: > > set bag *high* and slightly to the left from an inside or toe delay (like > an osis), spin right, sole delay > > (it essentially seems like an osis caught in a cross-body sole delay > instead of a regular cross body delay) > Sounds right. Well since we are on the subject of moves I would like to describe one: right clipper, spin to the right, do a right swirl. Paradox swirl? paradox dyno? inspinning swirl? Any of these close? Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 00:32:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18444 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:32:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA18440 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:32:12 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18437) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA18435 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:32:12 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29346 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:32:06 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TsG09172; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:30:37 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Cc: marigold@vcn.bc.ca Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:29:01 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re new move? Message-ID: <19970120.192901.8550.11.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Well since we are on the subject of moves I would like >to describe one: right clipper, spin to the right, do a right swirl. >Paradox swirl? paradox dyno? inspinning swirl? Any of these close? spinning swirl. I'm assuming the bag travels behind you. xbody swirl would be set from your left clipper, in front of you. There's no pdx swirl and inspinning would be a spin to the left. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 01:30:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18693 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:30:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18689 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:30:05 GMT From: kuchma@golden.net Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18686) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18684 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:30:04 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29573 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:29:58 -0800 Received: from [199.166.210.21] (swo-21.golden.org [199.166.210.21]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA14310 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:58:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:12:22 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: solstice! Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Solstice! Sweet! Have you tried eclipsing osis or reverse eclipse? Solstice! It sounds beter than solsis. What a swell name! Can't really picture and eclispsing osis though, and I'd probably just fall on my ass if I tried a reverse eclipse. It's sometimes difficult enough to just do a reverse/backwards hopeover. -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 01:30:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18713 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:30:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18709 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:30:47 GMT From: kuchma@golden.net Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18706) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18704 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:30:47 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29581 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:30:40 -0800 Received: from [199.166.210.21] (swo-21.golden.org [199.166.210.21]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA14317 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:58:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:12:27 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] new move? ('solsis'?) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Sounds right. Well since we are on the subject of moves I would like to >describe one: right clipper, spin to the right, do a right swirl. >Paradox swirl? paradox dyno? inspinning swirl? Any of these close? > >Adrian > >-- >marigold@vcn.bc.ca How far a spin? Are we talking like a 1/4 spin, 1/2 or full 360=B0? In all likelihood, it basically sounds like a swirl with a spin (spinning swirl). E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 01:37:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18741 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:37:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18737 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:37:06 GMT From: kuchma@golden.net Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18734) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18732 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:37:05 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29605 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:36:51 -0800 Received: from [199.166.210.21] (swo-21.golden.org [199.166.210.21]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA14322 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:58:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:12:32 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Ankle contortions for circus freaks!? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Matt Hillebrand wrote>>> That name sounds cool! When I was in high school, I loved to kick >footbags, but I never knew about WFA or footbag.org. I really thought that >I invented a move: set bag to outside, twist the hell out of your ankle >and carry the footbag into a clipper stall on your other side. Turns out >it was just a deformed osis. Now I call it the Frosis (Fro is my >nickname :) I have a friend who can do a 'special' move involving strange ankle contortions. First, imagine the position your leg and foot are in to execute an outside delay. Once like that, keep your leg in the same position, but rotate your foot almost half way so that the bag is sitting on the inside delay area of your foot. It's hard to describe, but believe me, it looks painful. On the topic of ankle contortions, what does the WFA have to say about moves involving ankle positions that only a select group of individuals could do? (ie: people who have double/triple 'jointed' ankles or have torn ligaments in their ankles, thereby giving added flexibility) E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 01:37:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18758 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:37:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18754 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:37:55 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18751) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18749 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:37:55 GMT Received: from [17.127.18.15] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29614 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:37:49 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970120.173957.8550.3.dervish@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:38:18 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney asks: >Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. > right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. > >What have I done? Genzu responds: >A spinning mirage. Three adds. > >(Even though I think it should be paradox ;->). No, the move *is* a "Gyrating Paradox Mirage". 4 adds. PERIOD. All this business about "gyrating cancelling out paradox" is only meant to refer to moves that have the same clipper set but a spin in front, whereby the spin (body) is a substitution for the pivot (paradox) for the same move (arguably harder, but we'll let that slide). But for moves that are actually *different* from their non-spinning counterparts, clearly the extra reverse-pivot rotation required to hit the move *after* the spin still fits the definition of paradox, by any definition we've agreed on so far. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 01:44:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18786 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:44:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18782 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:44:45 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18779) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18777 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:44:44 GMT Received: from [17.127.18.15] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29649; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:44:30 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:44:47 -0800 To: kuchma@golden.net From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: solstice! Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 5:12 PM -0800 1/20/97, kuchma@golden.net wrote: >>Solstice! Sweet! Have you tried eclipsing osis or reverse eclipse? > >Solstice! It sounds beter than solsis. What a swell name! ** NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! ** NO. There's already a move called "Solstice" which is: sole set -> spinning cross-body rake It's my trademark, thank you very much. :-) Your move is just a spinning cross-body sole, if that. Call it what you like, but don't call it solstice or I'll have to come to Ontario and do a Ripwalk on your head! Steve P.S. Mike, you seem to be cc'ing the list with portions excerpted from private messages. It's not good netiquette to quote others in the public forum if they've sent you private e-mail, but I bet you (like others) assume that because the word "[freestyle]" is in the subject that the message was sent to the list. The fact is this is just where the original message originated; to see where a particular message was sent you have to examine the To: and Cc: lines of each message you reply to. Just another anal comment from Steve. :-) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 01:47:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18818 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:47:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA18814 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:47:57 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (18811) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18809 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:47:56 GMT Received: from [17.127.18.15] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29670 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:47:50 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:48:17 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Ankle contortions for circus freaks!? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mike Kuchma wrote: >I have a friend who can do a 'special' move involving strange ankle >contortions. First, imagine the position your leg and foot are in to >execute an outside delay. Once like that, keep your leg in the same >position, but rotate your foot almost half way so that the bag is sitting >on the inside delay area of your foot. It's hard to describe, but believe >me, it looks painful. Well, I'm not promising anything, but it *sounds* like my Frigidosis, which is really a "zoom freeze" by most people's reckoning. >On the topic of ankle contortions, what does the WFA have to say about >moves involving ankle positions that only a select group of individuals >could do? Sorry, but what does the WFA have to do with anything relating to freestyle? But if you're asking about the official rules (which is the "IFAB" -- International Footbag Advisory Board, http://ifab.footbag.org/) then the answer is: uniqueness is a virtue. Ask Daryl Genz. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 02:46:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA19121 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:46:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA19117 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:46:29 GMT Received: from hungchang@ca.slr.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19114) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA19112 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:46:28 GMT Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net (relay1.smtp.psi.net [38.8.14.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA29941 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:46:23 -0800 Received: from dns.slr.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.3/SMI-5.4-PSI) id VAA22769; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ca.slr.com ([158.116.9.16]) by dns.slr.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19515; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:46:18 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ca.slr.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA853818378; Mon, 20 Jan 97 18:25:08 PST Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 18:25:08 PST From: "HungChang" Message-Id: <9700208538.AA853818378@ca.slr.com> To: swingert@creighton.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] RE: Motion in Footbag Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I wrote: >Also freestyling is rather static with the >person standing in one spot most of the time. "Sean" wrote: >Hung, although I agree with most of your other commentary, I don't >agree with this piece. Freestyle is anything but "static." Removing >motion from freestyle is like playing tennis without a raquet - >ridiculous. Bad choice of word on my part. What I meant by "Static" is that in a routine the freestyler is doing the tricks in one spot. Compare this to ice skating where they are moving all over the ice. I believe some freestyle competition forces you to move all over the floor. For Singles freestyle, moving across the floor looks rather awkward. Many looked like they rather stand in one spot. Doubles Freestyle does a much better job of incorporating dynamic movements because they can pass to each other. Also, the traditional freestyle (footbag dance?) is better suited for dynamic movements. Hung From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 03:07:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19251 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:07:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19247 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:07:31 GMT Received: from ukickit@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19244) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA19242 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:07:29 GMT Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA30044 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:07:23 -0800 Received: from (ukickit@por-or6-11.ix.netcom.com [199.35.206.203]) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA28038 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:07:20 -0800 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:07:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199701210307.TAA28038@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: ukickit@ix.netcom.com (Ken Shults) Subject: [freestyle] Heart Tourney Schedule To: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello kickers, Here is the schedule for the Adidas Heart of Footbag Freestyle Competition. Saturday 2/15/97 9:00 am to 6:00 pm PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY’S MAIN GYM 9:00 am to 10:30 am Set up time at PSU’s Main Gym 9:30 am to 10:30 am Late Registration and Competitor Check In 10:30 am Player’s Meeting 11:30 am Skills Contest Round One 12:15 pm to 4:00 pm Singles Freestyle Round One 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 pm Doubles Freestyle Round One 8:00 pm Pasta Dinner for Competitors/Volunteers/ Sponsors at the Skoolhouse Sunday 2/16/97 9:00 am to 5:00 pm PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY’S MAIN GYM 9:00 am Gym open for warm up freestyle and net play 9:30 am Players Meeting 10:15 am Final Round of Skills Contest 11:00 am Mixed Doubles Freestyle 2:00 pm Singles Freestyle Finals Begins 3:00 pm All Pledges due to the American Heart Association for presentation of the SnakeBoard and prizes for pledge gathering 3:30 pm Doubles Freestyle Finals 5:00 pm to 6:00 pm Gym Clean up 8:00 pm Award Dinner for Competitors/Volunteers/ Sponsors at the Skoolhouse If you need directions to the Skoolhouse please let me know. Kendall KIC Tournament Director From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 03:21:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19305 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:20:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19301 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:20:19 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19298) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA19296 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:20:18 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA30090 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:20:14 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as27s43.erols.com [207.172.119.127]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id WAA02038; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:23:21 -0500 Message-ID: <32E43757.569D@erols.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:26:15 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Verhoef Anne CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] new move? ('solsis'?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Verhoef Anne wrote: > Sounds right. Well since we are on the subject of moves I would like to > describe one: right clipper, spin to the right, do a right swirl. > Paradox swirl? paradox dyno? inspinning swirl? Any of these close? Adrian, It's a spinning swirl. Rippin does it on Raw Shread. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 03:36:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19368 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:36:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA19364 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:36:12 GMT Received: from j1876@tir.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (19361) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA19359 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:36:11 GMT Received: from tir.com (sun.tir.com [205.138.41.6]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA30149 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:36:05 -0800 Received: from an62.tir.com (an62.tir.com [205.138.41.162]) by tir.com (8.7.5/8.7) with SMTP id WAA04340 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:35:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:35:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701210335.WAA04340@tir.com> X-Sender: j1876@mail.tir.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: j1876@tir.com (j1876) Subject: [freestyle] address change Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Please send all e-mail to this address j1876@tir.com from now on. Thank-you, Jay From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 18:14:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA22058 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:14:47 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA22054 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:14:46 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (22051) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA22049 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:14:45 GMT Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00967 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:14:47 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26295 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:14:45 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0784.FF6D1E30@IBM2>; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:22:26 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC0784.FF6D1E30@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] RE: [footbag] Bags falling apart Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:39:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Thank you FLYING CLIPPER for revolutionizing footbag freestyle! Hey, wouldn't it be really cool if Flying Clipper invested $199- in a "Snappy", then they could take pics of all of their new footbags that were for sale and present them on a web page - I think it would revolutionize footbag sales on the net ! :-) Just an idea... Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 18:26:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA22086 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:26:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA22082 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:26:00 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (22079) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA22077 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:26:00 GMT Received: from [17.127.18.15] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01031 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:25:58 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BC0784.FF6D1E30@IBM2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:26:24 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Flying Clipper (was RE: [footbag] Re: [freestyle] blah blah) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:39 AM -0800 1/21/97, Mike Niday wrote: >Hey, wouldn't it be really cool if Flying Clipper invested $199- in a >"Snappy", >then they could take pics of all of their new footbags that were for sale and >present them on a web page - I think it would revolutionize footbag sales on >the net ! :-) Cute idea, although it wouldn't be cost-effective since they sell so many footbags by the time they took a picture and uploaded it onto the web, the bag would be sold already. They'd just get a bunch of angry customers who wanted that particular bag that's no longer available... But it's a nice thought. :-) But of course they will have a web site soon with pictures of their product line -- not the same as what you're saying, but at least something. Steve P.S. I won't mention the cross-post, will I? Naw, I'll let it slide. Or will I? Grr. :-) C'mon folks get it right, please? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 21 22:49:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA23161 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:49:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA23157 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:49:51 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (23154) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA23150 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:49:49 GMT Received: from foss.Colorado.EDU (foss.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.85]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02374; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:49:53 -0800 Received: from foss (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by foss.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id PAA02632; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:52:20 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32E548A0.185F@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:52:16 -0700 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Goldberg CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve Goldberg wrote: > > Josh Penney asks: > >Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. > > right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. > > > >What have I done? > > Genzu responds: > > >A spinning mirage. Three adds. > > > >(Even though I think it should be paradox ;->). > > No, the move *is* a "Gyrating Paradox Mirage". 4 adds. PERIOD. > > All this business about "gyrating cancelling out paradox" is only meant to > refer to moves that have the same clipper set but a spin in front, whereby > the spin (body) is a substitution for the pivot (paradox) for the same move > (arguably harder, but we'll let that slide). But for moves that are > actually *different* from their non-spinning counterparts, clearly the > extra reverse-pivot rotation required to hit the move *after* the spin > still fits the definition of paradox, by any definition we've agreed on so > far. > > Steve That's what I thought is was too, only when I posted a question regarding **the exaxt same move** several months (maybe a year?) ago most everyone disagreed with me (I think you did too, Steve). It was back in the days of the infamous Great Paradox Debate. I thought it was four adds, but was corrected by many people (I know Scott D was one) saying that it was only three. Daryl From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 22 02:07:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA23935 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:07:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA23931 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:07:25 GMT Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (23928) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA23926 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:07:23 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA03382 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:07:24 -0800 Received: from [199.166.210.24] (swo-24.golden.org [199.166.210.24]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA00284 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:06:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:20:46 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: [freestyle] Raw Shred Again Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Please excuse my ignorance again, but I have two more questions if anybody could please answer them. The first one is in regards to the move that Ahren Gehrman does at the end of the video (before Ken Shults' Blurry Whirlin Swirl). Ahren's move looks like 2 Blurry Paradox Whirls linked together. The second concerns a segment featuring Greg Nelson (the 3rd or 4th segment of the Phat Combos and Hein Tricks section). Greg links together about 5-8 of the same move where he does (forgive my description) a spin with a 'leg-over' type motion and a cross body delay catch. Just curious -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 22 03:10:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA24202 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:10:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA24198 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:10:20 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (24195) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA24193 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:10:17 GMT Received: from [204.188.8.42] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03736 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:10:21 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32E548A0.185F@bechtel.Colorado.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:07:49 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:52 PM -0800 1/21/97, Genz Daryl S wrote: >most everyone disagreed with me (I think you did too, Steve). It >was back in the days of the infamous Great Paradox Debate. I thought >it was four adds, but was corrected by many people (I know Scott D was >one) saying that it was only three. No, Daryl, I was one of your supporters in that battle. I don't think people understand the issue. It's one thing to say that paradox can't exist if you spin into a move; it's another thing to say you can hit a paradox move *after* a spin. I still argue the latter is possible. The semantics are the meanings of the words "spin into" versus "spin before". I don't know if I really want to get into that now, though. So if nobody's up for the regurgitation of the Great Paradox Debate maybe we better just let it drop. :-) (Pun intended.) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 22 05:48:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA24942 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 05:48:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA24938 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 05:48:28 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (24935) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA24933 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 05:48:27 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04406 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:48:34 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id AmK12960; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:45:39 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org, genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU, brat@research.apple.com Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:43:24 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? Message-ID: <19970122.004324.5102.3.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,8,10,12-15,17-25,27-28,30-31,40-42 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Genzu responds: >>A spinning mirage. Three adds. >>(Even though I think it should be paradox ;->). >No, the move *is* a "Gyrating Paradox Mirage". 4 adds. PERIOD. >All this business about "gyrating cancelling out paradox" is only meant to >refer to moves that have the same clipper set but a spin in front, whereby >the spin (body) is a substitution for the pivot (paradox) for the same move >(arguably harder, but we'll let that slide). But for moves that are >actually *different* from their non-spinning counterparts, clearly the >extra reverse-pivot rotation required to hit the move *after* the spin >still fits the definition of paradox, by any definition we've agreed on so >far. >>That's what I thought is was too, only when I posted a question >>regarding **the exaxt same move** several months (maybe a year?) ago >>most everyone disagreed with me. I thought >>it was four adds, but was corrected by many people (I know Scott D was >>one) saying that it was only three. I thought Derrick's current definition classified pdx as 'body.' So this argument can be diffused for another year. >The semantics are the meanings of the words "spin into" versus "spin before" Okay, whatever. But let's get on with where I was going with this. I don't want to argue semantics, I want to talk about sickness of the shredded kind. If I (somehow) manage a gyrated mirage before said 'spinning mirage' [gyro pdx mirage (or gpm) for Steve;] would it be gyro blur? Or would we have to call it gyro miraging spinning mirage? Who cares? What's important is I''m gonna start skooling like mad and try to hit that sucker. I have hit both gyro m. and the gpm so let me drill them for a week or so and we'll see what happens at windchill. I'll be sure to let you know. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 22 06:42:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA25231 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:42:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA25227 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:42:11 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (25224) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA25222 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:42:11 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04600 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:42:16 -0800 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA04670; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:41:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne To: Mike Kuchma cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Raw Shred Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Mike Kuchma wrote: > Please excuse my ignorance again, but I have two more questions if anybody > could please answer them. > > The first one is in regards to the move that Ahren Gehrman does at the end > of the video (before Ken Shults' Blurry Whirlin Swirl). Ahren's move looks > like 2 Blurry Paradox Whirls linked together. That's right: blurry whirl to blurry whirl > The second concerns a segment featuring Greg Nelson (the 3rd or 4th segment > of the Phat Combos and Hein Tricks section). Greg links together about 5-8 > of the same move where he does (forgive my description) a spin with a > 'leg-over' type motion and a cross body delay catch. > I don't quite remember, but I think it's torque. Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 22 17:26:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA26923 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:26:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA26919 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:26:26 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (26916) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA26914 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:26:25 GMT Received: from psycfrnd.interaccess.com (psycfrnd.interaccess.com [207.208.45.26]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07531 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:26:37 -0800 Received: from [207.70.66.87] (d87.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.87]) by psycfrnd.interaccess.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA26842; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:26:29 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:32:39 -0500 To: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney), genz@bechtel.Colorado.EDU From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle move? Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Josh! >On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:49:02 -0700 Genz Daryl S > writes: >>Josh Penney wrote: >>> Okay, I'm going to describe this; give me your ideas/concepts/. >>> right clipper, spin right, left leg inside out dex, right toe stall. >>> What have I done? >> >>A spinning mirage. Three adds. >>(Even though I think it should be paradox ;->). I agree on all three points there. It sure feels paradox. >Okay, Daryl; let's say I do the same move into osis. >Spinning torque? Yep. Ain't it a shame. Talk about reverse of direction... I have hit it a few times, but it is one of those moves you have to skool til you get it, then keep skoolin' it so you don't lose it. >How about a gyro mirage dex before the spun mirage? >Gyro Blur? >paradox? yes, no, why? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 22 21:48:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA27971 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:48:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA27967 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:48:27 GMT Received: from nbpayne@osprey.smcm.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (27964) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA27962 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:48:27 GMT Received: from osprey.smcm.edu (osprey.smcm.edu [138.78.1.14]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09071 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:48:40 -0800 Received: from smcm-Message_Server by osprey.smcm.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:51:49 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:50:55 -0500 From: Neil Payne To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] back on line Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org 'Stylers, I just wanted to say hello since I have just gotten back to school for my last! semester. I had a great time kicking with some of you at the 'East Must Jam'. Thanks to Tu for organizing it and everyone who came to represent for the audience in the Old Post Office Pavillion's food court. Take care, Neil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 07:37:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA30368 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:37:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA30364 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:37:40 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (30361) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA30359 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:37:40 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11556 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:37:56 -0800 Received: from port811-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port811-Auck.ihug.co.nz [203.29.161.49]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA13986 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:39:52 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701230739.UAA13986@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:35:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [freestyle] Move Queries Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Heya ppl I have recieved a few messages about my list... some of the moves I am unsure of.. so can anyone help me out with the following: Is a Dragon 3 adds? (Unusual Surface?) Is Clipper set Blizzard 4 adds? I have it as having [DEX] [DEX] [DEL].. is there a paradox in there somewhere? What is an Omlette, Scrambled Eggbeater and Smudge? And how the hell do I hit a symposium double legover without defying Gravity? I have hit it twice and I have a suspicion both times were fluke... L8r! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 07:55:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA30427 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:55:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA30423 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:55:33 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (30420) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA30418 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:55:33 GMT Received: from [204.188.8.42] (dialup3.Market.NET [204.188.8.42]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11645; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:54:58 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701230739.UAA13986@ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:55:24 -0800 To: "The Sock" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Adrian writes: >Is Clipper set Blizzard 4 adds? I have it as having [DEX] [DEX] >[DEL].. is there a paradox in there somewhere? Yes, Blizzard has a paradox just like Paradox-Reverse-Mirage has one. A Blizzard is a "miraging paradox-reverse-mirage" just like a Blur is a "miraging paradox-mirage". Make sense? You can have paradox on an out-in dexterity as long as the next thing after the dexterity is an opposite toe delay. That's one of the many rules listed. :-) There are other ways to get paradox off out-in dexterities as well but I don't want to go into it or I'd fill the page. :-) The question *I* have is how many adds are "Toe-Set Blur" and "Toe-Set Blizzard" (not to be confused with Smear (pixie-mirage) and Smudge (pixie-reverse-mirage). So I hope that answered your question about Smudge. :-) It's a reverse dexterity version of Smear, which is a (hard) 3-add move [toe > same in dex > op in dex > op toe]. Smudge is [toe > same in dex > op OUT dex > op toe]. ("Pixie" anything means [toe > same in dex > ...]) Someone else will have to answer your other questions... They're good ones, too. :-) And I hope someone answers my toe-set-blur question. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 08:20:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA30583 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:20:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA30579 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:20:07 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (30576) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA30574 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:20:06 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11746; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 00:20:19 -0800 Received: from port85-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port85-Auck.ihug.co.nz [202.49.254.85]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA26721; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:23:12 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701230823.VAA26721@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: Steve Goldberg Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:18:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries CC: freestyle@footbag.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > The question *I* have is how many adds are "Toe-Set Blur" and "Toe-Set > Blizzard" (not to be confused with Smear (pixie-mirage) and Smudge > (pixie-reverse-mirage). I think 3 plants in a move + either two dexterities going from in to out, or 2 dexterities going from out to in should = 4 adds Toe Set Blur smeggin feels like a 4 add move anyways... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 15:04:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA31588 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:04:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA31584 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:03:57 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (31581) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA31579 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:03:56 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13627 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:04:17 -0800 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id KAA03182; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:04:08 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Message-Id: <199701231504.KAA03182@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries To: the_sock@ihug.co.nz (The Sock) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:04:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199701230739.UAA13986@ihug.co.nz> from "The Sock" at Jan 23, 97 08:35:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Is a Dragon 3 adds? (Unusual Surface?) Yes. It is [x-body] [body] [delay] > Is Clipper set Blizzard 4 adds? I have it as having [DEX] [DEX] > [DEL].. is there a paradox in there somewhere? Yes. It is [dex] [body] [dex] [delay] > What is an Omlette, Scrambled Eggbeater and Smudge? Omelette: Reverse Miraging Reverse Mirage. 3 adds [dex] [dex] [delay] Smudge: Pixie Reverse Mirage. 3 adds [dex] [dex] [delay] > And how the hell do I hit a symposium double legover without defying > Gravity? I have hit it twice and I have a suspicion both times were > fluke... Well you did it twice, you tell me! Lators, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 15:12:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA31659 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:12:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA31655 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:12:36 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (31652) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA31650 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:12:35 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13654; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:12:57 -0800 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id KAA05672; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:12:56 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Message-Id: <199701231512.KAA05672@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries To: brat@footbag.org (Steve Goldberg) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:12:55 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Steve Goldberg" at Jan 22, 97 11:55:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > The question *I* have is how many adds are "Toe-Set Blur" and "Toe-Set > Blizzard" (not to be confused with Smear (pixie-mirage) and Smudge > (pixie-reverse-mirage). It seems VERY clear that toe-set blur is 3 adds currently. I also think that if you wish to grant a paradox add for these toe moves then you have to give adds for the other permutations of mirage and rev mirage. Which are: Atom Smasher (rev mirage mirage) Omelette (rev mirage rev mirage) After all it's only fair. I mean paradox atom-smasher and paradox omelette both exist, and are equivalent to their toe counterparts just like blur and blizzard. Steve, fact is, to give these moves their true add value according to the move difficulty you have to play with Scott Davidson's system. By the way Scott, how many adds are these moves getting? The toe version of blur BETTER get more adds than the clipper version or I'll have to bring up that non-honorable blurry paradox dyno of yours! ;') Later, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 16:51:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA31917 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:51:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA31913 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:51:40 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (31910) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA31908 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:51:40 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13976; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:52:01 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LtH03016; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:50:16 EST To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu Cc: brat@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:47:26 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries Message-ID: <19970123.114727.3286.1.dervish@juno.com> References: <199701231512.KAA05672@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5,7-13,15-17 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> The question *I* have is how many adds are "Toe-Set Blur" and "Toe-Set >> Blizzard" (not to be confused with Smear (pixie-mirage) and Smudge >> (pixie-reverse-mirage). > >It seems VERY clear that toe-set blur is 3 adds currently. I also think >that if you wish to grant a paradox add for these toe moves then you have >to give adds for the other permutations of mirage and rev mirage. >Atom Smasher (rev mirage mirage) >Omelette (rev mirage rev mirage) >After all it's only fair. Come now, my dear boy, you should know by now that life isn't Fair!! Let's please not get involved in this discussion as I will undoubtedly have to kill the lot of you... JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 17:12:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA32037 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA32033 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:14 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (32030) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA32028 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:14 GMT Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14068 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:12:36 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA09599 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:12:24 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC090E.9DB861F0@IBM2>; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:20:03 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC090E.9DB861F0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Move Queries Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:12:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Come now, my dear boy, you should know by now that life isn't Fair!! >>Let's please not get involved in this discussion as I will undoubtedly >>have to kill the lot of you... >>JP But Josh, I thought we all *lived* to have freestyle debates like this ! :-) :-) Personally, I think that paradox should be worth ZERO adds. Any comments, Steve G. ? ( heh heh heh ) :-)) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 17:51:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA32135 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:51:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA32131 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:51:25 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (32128) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA32126 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:51:24 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14234 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:51:46 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09645 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:51:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:51:04 +0000 Message-Id: <000000103782936865064@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, Jan 23, 1997, 9:12:24 AM GMT Mike Niday wrote: >Personally, I think that paradox should be worth ZERO adds. Any comments, > Steve G. ? Mike, whether you are joking or not, I agree with that statement. Call 'em paradox, but blow off the add. Derrick Fogle Computer Support Services Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation 104 Portland, Columbia, MO 65201 VOX: 573-443-1471 FAX: 573-443-1657 dfogle@mlerf.org From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 17:54:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA32164 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:54:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA32160 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:54:51 GMT Received: from kwireboy@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (32157) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA32155 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:54:51 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14255 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:55:12 -0800 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 23 Jan 1997 17:55:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 23 Jan 1997 17:55:11 -0000 Received: from Belahaar.cc.utexas.edu (slip-h-10.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.253.90]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id LAA31611; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:55:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <33382F9B.3EC5@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:03:39 -0800 From: Jay X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries References: <199701231512.KAA05672@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> <19970123.114727.3286.1.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > >> The question *I* have is how many adds are "Toe-Set Blur" and "Toe-Set > >> Blizzard" (not to be confused with Smear (pixie-mirage) and Smudge > >> (pixie-reverse-mirage). > > > >It seems VERY clear that toe-set blur is 3 adds currently. I also > think > >that if you wish to grant a paradox add for these toe moves then you > have > >to give adds for the other permutations of mirage and rev mirage. > >Atom Smasher (rev mirage mirage) > >Omelette (rev mirage rev mirage) > >After all it's only fair. > > Come now, my dear boy, you should know by now that life isn't Fair!! > Let's please not get involved in this discussion as I will undoubtedly > have to kill the lot of you... > > JP Hey that sounds like fun!! Wheeeee!!! Death!!!! -Jay From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 19:06:36 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32425 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:06:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32421 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:06:28 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (32418) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA32416 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:06:26 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14661 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:06:47 -0800 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id OAA18334; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:06:35 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Message-Id: <199701231906.OAA18334@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:06:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <000000103782936865064@mlerf.org> from "Derrick Fogle, MLERF" at Jan 23, 97 11:51:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > On Thu, Jan 23, 1997, 9:12:24 AM GMT Mike Niday wrote: > > >Personally, I think that paradox should be worth ZERO adds. Any comments, > > Steve G. ? > > Mike, whether you are joking or not, I agree with that statement. Call > 'em paradox, but blow off the add. Agreed. Paradox was just a cheap concept to give a harder move an extra add. Either we create something new for hard toe moves, or paradox keeps the name, looses the add. It will never happen. Later, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 19:20:34 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32477 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:20:33 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32473 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:20:32 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (32470) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA32468 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:20:32 GMT Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA14753 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:20:55 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA26483 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:20:54 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0920.90F7BE90@IBM2>; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:28:33 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC0920.90F7BE90@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Again... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:28:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org You know, the post I previously made was intented to be a JOKE, but, since everybody's so excited about debating paradox some more, hey, I'm all for it !! :-) First of all, just because a particular move can be done from a toe set as well as a clipper set, doesn't imply that the clipper set version is automatically paradox. Let's take a simple case: mirage. There is toe mirage and there is clipper mirage. The clipper mirage is NOT paradox. The "paradox mirage" as we all know it is MUCH harder than a clipper mirage, and MUCH different. I just don't see how anybody can convince anybody else that paradox mirage gets only two adds ! So I guess this means that paradox double leg overs are only 3 adds, paradox whirls are 3 adds, etc. I just don't see it. Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com P.S. HEY STEVE !! Where are you?? You better back me up on some of this ! :-) :-) :-) HELP !! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 19:53:29 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32575 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:53:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32571 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:53:22 GMT Received: from schneija@ucsu.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (32568) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA32566 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:53:22 GMT Received: from ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ucsu.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.83]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14991 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:53:45 -0800 Received: (from schneija@localhost) by ucsu.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) id MAA26729 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:53:39 -0700 (MST) From: Freestyle Jedi (Shpater Dude) Message-Id: <199701231953.MAA26729@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Subject: [freestyle] Move Queries To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:53:38 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ain't it funny how noone can seem to agree on the nature of a paradox? but then, isn't that just the nature of a paradox? anyway, my ever so humble opinion is that some of you HAVE LOST YOUR BLOODY MINDS! cause paradox does exist and it does add an element of difficulty to almost any move that can concievably be done paradox style. for any non-believers, i ask you to try this: first, do a torque. okay, that being done, next, do a paradox torque. now, who among you paradox dissers out there feel that this second move was not more difficult than the first? now, don't you think that doing a move in this more difficult manner doesn't deserve an extra add, for all of you competitors out there obsessed with scoring every move? okay, whatever. i don't really care about adds that much, as i've never competed. my real concern here is this: now that i know what an omlette is, how is this different from an egg-beater? it has to do with what toe you start on and which you finish on, right? if this is so, it will help me alot of all of you footbag educators out there would include these simple details in your move definitions. thank you ever so much, and i'll catch ya'll Shpater, Dudes Jonathan Schneider may the force be with us From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 19:57:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32611 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:57:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA32607 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:57:31 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (32604) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA32602 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:57:30 GMT Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15015 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:57:53 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701231906.OAA18334@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> References: <000000103782936865064@mlerf.org> from "Derrick Fogle, MLERF" at Jan 23, 97 11:51:04 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:01:10 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:06 AM -0800 1/23/97, Alessandre S Naro wrote: >Agreed. Paradox was just a cheap concept to give a harder move an extra >add. Either we create something new for hard toe moves, or paradox >keeps the name, looses the add. Alex, some day you will really understand the issue here. Listen, I know Mighty was kidding, but if you're going to make sweeping statements like the above, Alex, you better know what you're talking about. For the hundredth time... Paradox is not an add category and it was not invented after the fact. As Mike says: >>>> There is toe mirage and there is clipper mirage. The clipper mirage is NOT paradox. The "paradox mirage" as we all know it is MUCH harder than a clipper mirage, and MUCH different. <<<< The fact is that paradox mirage is a unique move, entirely different than mirage, and what makes it "paradox" is unimportant in some sense. The term "paradox" is not at issue here, honestly. The *actual* add-category components that go into making a move harder than another move are the issue. Everyone agrees that the extra pivot and change of direction required to pull, say, a "paradox mirage" off is a body add. There is no paradox add. There are just paradox versions of other moves, which merit a body add. The debate I raised and tried to carry on before (until it fell apart due to overwhelming randomness and divergence) was with respect to the true nature of paradoxness, since it's obvious it exists for a certain class of moves but there are questions about other very similar moves. I just wanted to find an easier way to define it than the way it was (and is) currently defined. But I ain't willing to drag up that argument right now. Maybe later. And there ain't no doubt that paradox mirage is 3 adds. If we want to reinvent the whole system, let's do that. Let's do what I recommend and consider plants and windows in our difficulty assessments. But if we're going to keep with the current system on into the near future, there just is not argument that paradox moves by the current IFAB definition are worth an extra add.. So get off it. Steve P.S. For those of you new to the list, you have to read all my e-mail with a grin on your face or you won't get half my jokes. :-) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 20:46:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA00078 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:46:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA00074 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:46:38 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (71) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA00069 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:46:37 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA15249 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:47:00 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15301 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:46:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:46:19 +0000 Message-Id: <000000106582936875579@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, Jan 23, 1997, 8:01:10 PM GMT Steve Goldberg wrote: >"paradox" is not at issue here, honestly. The *actual* add-category >components that go into making a move harder than another move are the >issue. Everyone agrees that the extra pivot and change of direction >required to pull, say, a "paradox mirage" off is a body add. Wait, Steve, not everybody . I still contend that the body pivot is merely incidental to the dexterous leg motions required to execute a paradox. And for those of you who say, "but your foot doesn't circle the bag," the definition of dexterity has always contained carries, not just legovers. There's your constrained foot path allowance already in the "stands the test of time" dexterity definition. There definitely are moves that do not fit the commonly accepted definition of paradox that most certainly do have the same 'double pivot' element that the classic paradox mirage does. That 'spin to paradox mirage (rt clip > cw spin > lft in-out dex > rt toe del)' is one of them. It ain't paradox. But unless anyone else really raises a stink about the wording for this year's rulebook I posted a few days ago, that's just the way its gonna be. >And there ain't no doubt that paradox mirage is 3 adds. If we want to >reinvent the whole system, let's do that. Let's do what I recommend and Here here! I've said for years that we need to consider foot plants - essentially weight shifts - as criteria for whether or not a move is unique. I've also said that windows should certainly be considered. The vortex is a perfect example of a 'window problem' move that maybe should be considered for an extra add. Reverse paradox mirages are really window problems more than dexterity or body problems, too. >P.S. For those of you new to the list, you have to read all my e-mail with >a grin on your face or you won't get half my jokes. :-) It'll never work Steve. You are way too dry and pompous (oh wait, did *I* just call *YOU* pompous?!? ;) Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 21:50:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA00368 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:50:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA00364 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:50:47 GMT Received: from kwireboy@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (361) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA00359 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:50:46 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA15596 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:51:09 -0800 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 23 Jan 1997 21:48:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 23 Jan 1997 21:48:47 -0000 Received: from Belahaar.cc.utexas.edu (slip-8-7.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.204.119]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id PAA04588; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:48:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <32E7FABC.556C@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:56:44 -0800 From: Jay X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries References: <199701231512.KAA05672@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> <19970123.114727.3286.1.dervish@juno.com> <33382F9B.3EC5@mail.utexas.edu> <19970123.152855.21494.0.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Nice! do me a favor and change your system date so I don't get royally > confused in two months. > Your post says March 25th. > Thanks, > > JP Ack... ug... urg... My sincerest apologies about my computers screwed up date... Precautions were taken not too long ago to avoid a rumored virus and I never undid them... They have now (quite obviously) been fixed... Just so everyone knows, I'm relatively a beginner still working on his three adds and even a few twos... If I ask a stupid question please be patient with me... I only ask them because I am stupid... hehehe... Much thanks, Jay From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 21:55:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA00395 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:55:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA00391 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:55:19 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (388) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA00386 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:55:19 GMT Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15625 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:55:43 -0800 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id QAA29454; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:55:32 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Message-Id: <199701232155.QAA29454@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries To: schneija@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Freestyle Jedi) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:55:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199701231953.MAA26729@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> from "Freestyle Jedi" at Jan 23, 97 12:53:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > anyway, my ever so humble opinion is that some of you > HAVE LOST YOUR BLOODY MINDS! > cause paradox does exist and it does add an element of difficulty to > almost any move that can concievably be done paradox style. Yes, I agree on both counts. Paradox does exist, and the move is harder. > difficult than the first? now, don't you think that doing a move in > this more difficult manner doesn't deserve an extra add? Try a toe-blur. Try a toe-blizzard. They are even harder than their clipper counterparts, and yet they get one LESS add. Therefore your "doing the move in a more difficult manner deserves an add" logic failed! Also consider eggbeater and clipper set eggbeater (not the paradox one). They get equal adds, but the clipper set eggbeater is much harder. Whatever, I think it's agreed no one is serious about abolishing paradox. The question is whether someone wants to brain storm a new system that will make up for the short comings of the current one. > whatever. i don't really care about adds that much, as i've never > competed. Me neither! > my real concern here is this: now that i know what an omlette is, > how is this different from an egg-beater? it has to do with what toe > you start on and which you finish on, right? Correct. Eggbeater starts from right toe, ends right toe. Omelette starts right toe, ends left toe. Later, Alex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 22:00:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA00415 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:00:00 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA00411 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:00:00 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (408) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA00406 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:59:59 GMT Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15651 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:00:21 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000106582936875579@mlerf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:01:48 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:46 AM -0800 1/23/97, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: >Wait, Steve, not everybody . I meant we'd agreed on it for now -- i.e., that's what the IFAB rules are for this year. Like I said, I really don't want to get back into it right now. >That 'spin to paradox mirage >(rt clip > cw spin > lft in-out dex > rt toe del)' >is one of them. It ain't paradox. Oh yes it is. It is, it is, it is, it is. Stop saying it isn't. >Here here! I've said for years that we need to consider foot plants - >essentially weight shifts - as criteria for whether or not a move is >unique. I've also said that windows should certainly be considered. >The vortex is a perfect example of a 'window problem' move that maybe >should be considered for an extra add. Reverse paradox mirages are >really window problems more than dexterity or body problems, too. Great.. So you go off and design the system and get back to us. :-) That's what Reed and Kenny and others did many years ago... It's not like we designed it by consensus or anything... >It'll never work Steve. You are way too dry and pompous (oh wait, did *I* >just call *YOU* pompous?!? ;) Ha ha ha! :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 22:24:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA00541 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:24:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA00537 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:24:07 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (534) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA00532 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:24:07 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15751 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:24:31 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19560 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:24:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:23:53 +0000 Message-Id: <000000106722936881433@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, Jan 23, 1997, 10:01:48 PM GMT Steve Goldberg wrote: >>That 'spin to paradox mirage >>(rt clip > cw spin > lft in-out dex > rt toe del)' >>is one of them. It ain't paradox. > >Oh yes it is. It is, it is, it is, it is. Stop saying it isn't. OK, it is. But it doesn't fit the definition, so it isn't (but wait! THAT's a paradox!) Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 23:02:36 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00698 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:02:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00694 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:02:33 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (691) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00689 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:02:32 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15947 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:02:56 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20583 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:02:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:02:17 +0000 Message-Id: <000000106952936883737@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Jan 24, 1997, 1:50:59 AM GMT Josh Penney wrote: >that adds aren't a true measure of difficulty anymore. Sure, not every >move is exactly the same, but there's no way butterfly and gyro mirage >are the same level of effort. How could flurry and torque be on the Almost everyone is willing to concede this point, but few are willing to accept changes. It may be like the name: its way to damn late now! Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 23:09:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00771 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:09:37 GMT Message-Id: <199701232309.XAA00771@eniac.yak.net.taz> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:31:32 +0000 Organization: MLERF To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, Jan 23, 1997, 10:01:48 PM GMT Steve Goldberg wrote: >Great.. So you go off and design the system and get back to us. :-) That's >what Reed and Kenny and others did many years ago... It's not like we You know I can't do that - I'm a stark raving lunatic within the footbag community! Whatever I came up with, people would be sure to avoid like the plague. :) Anyway, there really doesn't have to be any changes to the system except to "see" weight shifts, rather than slap the blinders on. That way, ripwalks and dadas would each be unique moves, and so would barfly and paradon. The problem is that it makes hundreds of one and two add moves have several unique variations, too. Same side butterfly, knee-bump butterfly, and infinity butterfly would each be considered unique. You could sure fill out the comp cards fast like that! So actually, you would have to "de-value" each unique move within the Worlds judging system to say, 1/2 point each rather than 1 point each. There, I've gone off and done it. Expect this to appear in the next rulebook! Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 23 23:27:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00879 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:27:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00875 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:27:30 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (872) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00870 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:27:29 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16076 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:27:50 -0800 Received: from coinc0 (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14915; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:27:46 -0600 (CST) Received: by coinc0 (SMI-8.6) id RAA11771; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:27:44 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:27:44 -0600 (CST) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: dfogle@mlerf.org cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest In-Reply-To: <199701232309.XAA00771@eniac.yak.net.taz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 dfogle@mlerf.org wrote: > On Thu, Jan 23, 1997, 10:01:48 PM GMT Steve Goldberg wrote: > > >Great.. So you go off and design the system and get back to us. :-) That's > >what Reed and Kenny and others did many years ago... It's not like we > > You know I can't do that - I'm a stark raving lunatic within the footbag community! Whatever I came up with, people would be sure to avoid like the plague. :) > Why is this a problem? They *are* uniques moves. The bag starts from a different place, takes a different path to its destination, crosses behind your leg at a different place/angle, you use your feet differently, your body moves differently. I don't understand why they are all considered one & the same move (especially when they didn't use to be.) Ida Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 14:35:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA08289 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:35:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA08285 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:35:26 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8282) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA08280 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:35:25 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA20731 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:35:57 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20678 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:35:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:35:18 +0000 Message-Id: <000000107102936939718@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Jan 24, 1997, 2:29:01 AM GMT Josh Penney wrote: >I know all the double-downs are the same, but I was not aware ripwalk and >dada were considered the same as well.... what's up with that? According to conventional wisdom, the uniqueness of a move is determined by the add components. Here's a quick rundown of what is unique: Each side of the body is considered unique; there's a 'whatever to left' and 'whatever to right.' There are three types of dexterities: in-out, and out-in, and carries. There are two types of spins: clockwise and counter clockwise. There are five different basic surfaces, and about 8 different unusual surfaces. There is one type of cross-body. There is one type of delay. There are two types of modifiers: paradox and symposium (both considered body adds) The set is never considered, except in for determining if a move is paradox. That's it. I think it's been 3 years ago now that Kenny at Worlds judging clinics drilled this into everyone's head: only unique add component combinations get unique points. Here's Dada and ripwalk dissected: SET (not considered) ADD COMPONENTS FINAL CONTACT xb ins del > op out-in dex > op in-out dex > op xb ins del xb ins del > op out-in dex > op in-out dex > op xb ins del The ONLY difference is foot plants, and foot plants are not supposed to be considered. >Either that or just have unlimited card scores... why have only 30 of >this or 10 of that? Leave them open... besides, I feel it should weigh >more on the 'presentation', whatever that is. This is a viable idea, although I still think there should be a "max" number of points for composition, since this is also true for presentation. It could easily be 'graded on a curve' to show everyone's relative position in comp cards. Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 17:24:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00614 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:23:32 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00610 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:23:31 GMT Received: from kwireboy@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (607) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00605 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:23:30 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21291 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:22:35 -0800 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 24 Jan 1997 17:13:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 24 Jan 1997 17:13:15 -0000 Received: from Belahaar.cc.utexas.edu (slip-f-14.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.253.62]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id LAA20328; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:13:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <32E90B9D.4D89@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:21:01 -0800 From: Jay X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Moldenhauer CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries References: <199701241649.LAA21195@tir.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jay Moldenhauer wrote: > > Hello Jay, > > This is Jay and if you are new to the whole footbag scene, I would really > appreciate it if we could call you something else like Jay2, seems how I > have been involved in footbag, (albeit off and on) since Worlds of 1985. > (BIG, BIG Grin) =-) > > Thank-You and warm wishes, > > Jay Moldenhauer, circa 11-2-1956 No problem... respect to the elders... hehehe... I'll go by my initials... JTM... The number thing just doesn't suit me... Simply too concentration camp-esque for my tastes... -JTM From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 20:08:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01203 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:08:16 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01198 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:08:10 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1195) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA01193 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:08:03 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22299 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:07:08 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as21s07.erols.com [207.172.121.175]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id PAA21343; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:07:12 -0500 Message-ID: <32E917E0.7DBC@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:13:20 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Derrick Fogle, MLERF" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries References: <000000103782936865064@mlerf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 23, 1997, 9:12:24 AM GMT Mike Niday wrote: > > >Personally, I think that paradox should be worth ZERO adds. Any comments, > > Steve G. ? > > Mike, whether you are joking or not, I agree with that statement. Call >'em paradox, but blow off the add. Whoa, Derrick man that's pretty harsh! Paradox mirage, paradox whirl, paradox torque, paradox drifter, and any paradox trick is at least twice as hard as there counterparts mirage, whirl, torque, and drfiter. Your body has to do some mosh twisting that you at *least* deserve the extra add. Oh, well that's just one person's opinon and I didn't intend to start more paradox wars. Tu Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 20:30:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01324 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:30:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01320 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:30:10 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1317) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA01315 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:30:09 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22425 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:29:16 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as21s07.erols.com [207.172.121.175]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id PAA26306; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:29:30 -0500 Message-ID: <32E91D1A.2B53@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:35:38 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries References: <199701232155.QAA29454@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> <32E91C4E.EA2@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Alessandre S Naro wrote: > > > difficult than the first? now, don't you think that doing a move in > > > this more difficult manner doesn't deserve an extra add? > > > > Try a toe-blur. Try a toe-blizzard. They are even harder than their > > clipper counterparts, and yet they get one LESS add. Therefore your > > "doing the move in a more difficult manner deserves an add" logic failed! > > Also consider eggbeater and clipper set eggbeater (not the paradox one). > > They get equal adds, but the clipper set eggbeater is much harder. > I agree. I think that toe-blur and those tricks are harder than > clip-set blurs but I still think paradox is an extra add in most cases > (Paradox torque, paradox drifter, paradox whirl). > Thanks for sheading some light on the eggbeater and clipset egg beater > and I'm sure Jim will thank you too (As clipset eggbeater is one of his > favorite moves.) > > Whatever, I think it's agreed no one is serious about abolishing > > paradox. The question is whether someone wants to brain storm a new > > system that will make up for the short comings of the current one. > I think we should brain storm on a new system or some major revisons on > the old. But in any case, There MUST be the extra add for paradox! > We will have to think about atom smasher, toe blur, and the rest. > > Tu HUge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 20:41:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01351 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:41:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01347 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:41:21 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1344) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA01342 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:41:21 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22533 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:40:27 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as21s07.erols.com [207.172.121.175]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id PAA28908; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:40:38 -0500 Message-ID: <32E91FB5.20D4@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:46:45 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Derrick Fogle, MLERF" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queriest References: <000000107102936939718@mlerf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick, That's the *FIRST* time I have ever heard ripwalk and DADA curve being different. What you said makes a lot of sense but those two tricks are just so damm different that they *SHOULD* be considered unique moves. Oh well, I don't do Dada's anyway! Tu HUge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 20:59:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01395 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:59:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01391 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:59:07 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1388) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA01386 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:59:07 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22654 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:58:14 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as21s07.erols.com [207.172.121.175]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id PAA32748; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:58:19 -0500 Message-ID: <32E923D7.6C28@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:04:23 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dfogle@mlerf.org CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries References: <000000107912936960236@mlerf.org> <32E9224D.61FF@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tu Vu wrote: > Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > > I don't really think there's much difference between the mirages, but there's more with alot of other moves. I also think that an outside set 'paradox-but- n You can only get a Paradox add for doing if from a cross-body move, that's why you don't recieve those extra adds but I agree that an outside set is much harder than a regular paradox mirage. That's what sucks about the system. It doesn't fully consider for the difficulity of a trick like there's billions of examples of some tricks being harder than others ang getting less adds for it. I don't think there's anyway we can change the system. > > But I guess I'm just a pretty harsh individual :) Nobody ever said that!!! Tu HUge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 21:00:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01430 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:00:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01425 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:00:21 GMT Received: from genz@bechtel.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1422) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA01420 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:00:20 GMT Received: from foss.Colorado.EDU (foss.Colorado.EDU [128.138.228.85]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22659 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:59:27 -0800 Received: from foss (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by foss.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) with SMTP id OAA04601 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:02:14 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32E92352.FD0@bechtel.Colorado.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:02:10 -0700 From: Genz Daryl S X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) References: <199701231504.KAA03182@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Alessandre S Naro wrote: > > > Is a Dragon 3 adds? (Unusual Surface?) > > Yes. It is [x-body] [body] [delay] No, it aint!** ;-> There's no body add for a dragon delay. There's nothing (;->) unusual about a dalay on the outside of one's foot!! It's only worth two adds: delay and cross body. Though it is UNIQUE it is not (as per the strict IFAB definition) UNUSUAL. **Unless you're referring to the "dragon osis" (the definition of which I personally disagree with) without the dexterity - but I've still got a problem with this (though I have LOTS of problems ;->). Humm, this whole concept needs some discussion (IMHO) so let me just lay out the groundwork. The so-called "dragon osis" as described on the move's list on footbag.org (Kudos to Adrian, Damian & Steve ;->>> just had to say that) goes as follows: 4 adds (x-body, delay, dex, body). >From a clip set, circle the footbag from back, up and over the footbag (Swirl motion) while twisting you ankle into a x-body outside stall (dragon). First of all, the move described has NOTHING to do with an osis!! Second, the move described is ONLY 3 adds - it's simply a swirl that's caught on the outside surface, rather than the inside. However, (I'm just reading this in - please correct me if it's wrong) I believe the move they were intending to describe started the same, only as you catch the bag in the x-body outside position, you turn your body so your foot ends up in the standard (non-x-body) outside position (this is sort of like an osis, only instead of starting non-x-body and going to x-body, you do it in reverse). Ok, so here's my problem. There are two ways to end this move, (this move being a swirl into a dragon, or actually any move you want, it could even be a paradon caught in a dragon ...) One: a dragon where the bag stays in the x-body position. Two: a "dragon osis" where the bag sort of osises to the outside delay. Consider the swirl to dragon for now. Above, One: is worth three adds. (Period!) Two: is worth ??? adds. It seems to me that technically Two should be considered 4 adds but 2 moves, one 3 add and 1 ONE add move (1 add for the sort of reverse wrap motion). One could also look at it (Two) as one continuous move that's worth a total of four adds. The only problem with this (IMO) is that it's yet another case where our beloved add system FAILS miserably. For example consider paradon to dragon. It's *WAY* more difficult to hold the bag in the x-body position than to spin out of it with a "dragon osis" motion. So why should you get 5 adds for copping out when it's harder to do the 4 add version?? I guess by my own arguments, I think there's no such move as a dragon osis - but I'm still feeling wishywashy about it, 'cause it would be nice to get that extra little easy add... What does everyone think (besides the fact that I tend to ramble endlessly ;->)?? Daryl From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 24 21:50:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01632 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:50:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01628 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:50:36 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1625) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA01623 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:50:36 GMT Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA23018 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:49:43 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA08364 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:49:42 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC09FE.84EAE120@IBM2>; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:57:21 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC09FE.84EAE120@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Move Queriest Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:56:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>That's the *FIRST* time I have ever heard ripwalk and DADA curve being >>different. What you said makes a lot of sense but those two tricks are >>just so damm different that they *SHOULD* be considered unique moves. >>Oh well, I don't do Dada's anyway! While we're on the subject, is anybody out there hittin' dada swirls??? Scott?? Josh C.?? Don't worry - I'm sure not. Have never even tried, but I'm hittin' ripwalk swirls though. :-)) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 25 02:48:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA00178 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:48:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA00174 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:48:39 GMT Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (171) Received: from Market.NET ([140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA00169 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:48:33 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24457 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:47:25 -0800 Received: from [199.166.210.125] (swo-125.golden.org [199.166.210.125]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA04437 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:47:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:01:07 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Alessandre S Naro wrote: > > > Is a Dragon 3 adds? (Unusual Surface?) > > Yes. It is [x-body] [body] [delay] Daryl Genz wrote: >No, it aint!** ;-> Well Daryl, ya beat me to it. I was going to write asking about the 3add dragon query. Although I do agree that dragon is not an unusual surface, it is nonetheless more difficult than a regular cross body delay, but it probably just isn't that much more difficult to warrant an extra add than a regular clipper delay. Daryl also wrote: >First of all, the move described has NOTHING to do with an osis!! >Second, the move described is ONLY 3 adds - it's simply a swirl >that's caught on the outside surface, rather than the inside. Once more, I agree again. I also wondered about the add count for this so-called 'dragon osis' --- where the hell does that body add come from??!! Daryl then proceeded to write: >Two: a "dragon osis" where the bag sort of >osises to the outside > delay. This move totally sounds like 4 adds: [dex] for the swirl motion [delay] obviously [body] for the twist to outside non-x-body delay......hmmm.. now where does the fourth add come from? maybe another [body] for the 'wrap'? I also had another question concerning what an actual dragon osis would be. You described it as like a regular osis, except doing it in reverse. I don't quite understand how that would work. An osis done backwards would be like a clipper set, spin, non-x-body delay.. An actual 'dragon' osis would consist of doing a regular osis, except the scooping action would be performed on the outside of the foot (hence the dragon) and ending in a x-body dragon delay. Thoughts? -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 25 03:07:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA00330 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:07:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA00325 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:07:35 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (322) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA00320 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:07:33 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA24539 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:06:33 -0800 Received: from [202.49.254.64] (port64-Auck.ihug.co.nz [202.49.254.64]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22643 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:09:32 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701250309.QAA22643@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:54:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Once more, I agree again. I also wondered about the add count for this > so-called > 'dragon osis' --- where the hell does that body add come from??!! Hmm, I think I am the culprit behind the Dragon Osis scheme... I was the one who gave it the bonus add on that move list without discussing it... I never added it to my new move list coz its so bizarre... I think Dragon should get an extra add (probly as unusual surface) tho... and if anyone thinks otherwise, try setting a paradox mirage off a dragon, then try setting one off a clipper.. (I cant hit anything of a dragon anyways..cept a x-body sole) Maybe all paradox moves and x-body outside delays should be banned from freestyle ;) (just kidding Steve, get your finger off that mail bomb button) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 25 03:36:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA00405 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:36:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA00401 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:36:05 GMT Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (398) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA00396 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:36:05 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA24634 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:35:08 -0800 Received: from [207.216.116.47] ([207.216.116.47]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA10057 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:35:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:48:59 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: [freestyle] dragon unusual surface?! Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org by what definition would the dragon be an unusual surface!? it makes absolutely no sense! just because its a somewhat awkward position, the dragon does not require an extra add. i do however think it's more difficult than a regular clipper, but by using the current 'add grading' system, there is no logical way to give a dragon more than 2 adds (there may be a *slight* *SLIGHT!!!* argument for an extra body add, just as a way of bending the rules to give the extra difficulty of a dragon a more benificial add total). -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 25 04:08:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA00536 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:08:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA00530 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:08:32 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (527) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA00525 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:08:25 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA24738 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:07:27 -0800 Received: from [202.49.254.64] (port64-Auck.ihug.co.nz [202.49.254.64]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA08036 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:30 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701250410.RAA08036@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:55:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [freestyle] Last message Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry bout my last message's date being set so far back... It must be as annoying as those messages with about 40 words per line... Later! PS. I hit left and right Paradon Swirl, and Left and Right Double over down swirl :) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 25 21:52:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03079 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:52:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03075 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:52:16 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3072) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03070 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:52:10 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29590 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:51:22 -0800 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA18556 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:51:22 -0500 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199701252151.QAA18556@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:51:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <32E92352.FD0@bechtel.Colorado.edu> from "Genz Daryl S" at Jan 24, 97 02:02:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Genz Daryl S: > > Alessandre S Naro wrote: > > > > > Is a Dragon 3 adds? (Unusual Surface?) > > > > Yes. It is [x-body] [body] [delay] > > No, it aint!** ;-> > > There's no body add for a dragon delay. There's nothing (;->) > unusual about a dalay on the outside of one's foot!! > It's only worth two adds: delay and cross body. Though it > is UNIQUE it is not (as per the strict IFAB definition) UNUSUAL. > > What does everyone think (besides the fact that I tend to ramble > endlessly ;->)?? I (perhaps erroneously) believed that a dragon received an extra body add for the "unique" ankle and knee twist that was necessary to execute it. On the topic of dragon osis - wouldn't this be a better name for the move done without a dexterity? Then if there is a dex before the osis, it could be called a swirling dragon osis (dragon twirl??). On determining if it was one move or two - I see it kind of analogous to the inside delay case with wrap and osis. If it is done fluidly as a move or at the end of a move (i.e. osis, torque, blender) then it should only be one move, whereas if it is done after a hesitation or a pause (like a wrap) then it is two moves. I can see how this second move would be considered one add, but I think it could be argued to be two as well (whether or not it gets a Xbody add, because it is carried FROM a cross body position). Does a reverse wrap get one add or two? Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 25 23:08:04 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03312 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:07:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03307 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:07:55 GMT Received: from kwireboy@mail.utexas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3304) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA03302 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:07:52 GMT Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29913 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:07:05 -0800 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 25 Jan 1997 23:07:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 25 Jan 1997 23:07:04 -0000 Received: from Belahaar.cc.utexas.edu (slip-d-4.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.113.116]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id RAA04253; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:07:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <32EAB018.5886@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:15:04 -0800 From: Jay Merritt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sunil Jani CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) References: <199701252151.QAA18556@dept.english.upenn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sunil Jani wrote: Does a reverse > wrap get one add or two? > > Sunil Two... [x-body] [delay]... How could it be one? Jay Merritt PS: I get everything right yet Steve? If not please let me know... thanks... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jan 25 23:44:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03374 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:44:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA03370 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:44:26 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3367) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA03365 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:44:26 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA30045 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:43:38 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SsN09172; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:43:09 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:40:33 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) Message-ID: <19970125.184034.3334.2.dervish@juno.com> References: <199701252151.QAA18556@dept.english.upenn.edu> <32EAB018.5886@mail.utexas.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,8,10-15 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Sunil Jani wrote: >> Does a reverse wrap get one add or two? > >Two... [x-body] [delay]... How could it be one? > Jay Merritt > whoops! the clipper delay is two adds, but a wrap in either direction by itself is only one. Wrap is s special dexterity, like a pendulum or rake. If you delay inside and wrap to clipper, it's a total of 2 adds. [delay] [dex] If you delay xbody and unwrap to inside, it's 3. [xbody] [delay] [dex] And my name ain't Steve it's... JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 26 07:36:19 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA04486 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:36:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA04482 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:36:00 GMT Received: from jboy123@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4479) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA04477 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:35:58 GMT From: Jboy123@aol.com Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA31765 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:35:13 -0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA13488 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:35:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:35:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970126023513_505769788@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] wraps Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Im new to this list, but I know a lot about footbag (at least i think i do), and have been playing seriously for about 6 months. im only sixteen, but i think ive been learning pretty fast and that i can contribute to the list. im from the SF bay area and am good friends w/Steve G, and he's sort of been my teacher since the beginning. Josh Penny wrote: >If you delay inside and wrap to clipper, it's a total of 2 adds. [delay] >[dex] >If you delay xbody and unwrap to inside, it's 3. [xbody] [delay] [dex] wrong. don't we count adds by what the final delay is, not the initial (set)? i think that if you catch the bag on a clipper, that in itself is a two add move, and then if you wrap it around to an inside, you get two more [dex][del]. going back the other way would be three [dex][xbd][del]. jboy From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 26 10:19:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA04997 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:19:13 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA04993 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:19:11 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4990) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA04988 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:19:10 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA32469 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:18:28 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id FDY19987; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 05:18:01 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 04:39:52 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] wraps Message-ID: <19970126.051604.3358.2.dervish@juno.com> References: <970126023513_505769788@emout15.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-4,6-11,13,15-24,26,28,31,34-35,37-39 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, JBoy! Steve has been raving up and down the internet about how fast you're learning... can't wait for a lesson. >Josh PennEy wrote: >>If you delay inside and wrap to clipper, it's a total of 2 adds. [delay][dex] >>If you delay xbody and unwrap to inside, it's 3. [xbody] [delay] >[dex] > >don't we count adds by what the final delay is, not the initial (set)? Well, generally, yes. but not in the case of a special dexterity like wrap. The whole move is a weight shift, moving your delay foot around your support leg. The bag never leaves the initial surface after the delay. There is only one delay. [see below] > i think that if you catch the bag on a clipper, that in itself is a >two add move, and then if you wrap it around to an inside, you get two >more [dex][del]. >going back the other way would be three [dex][xbd][del]. After the "set" delay, there isn't another time you have to stall the footbag. Once the foot is 'wrapped' then you don't delay it again, the bag doesn't move, just your foot. I also feel if you delay inside and wrap to clipper you shouldn't get the xbody add, because the contact has already occured and you're just waving your leg. Delay, then dexterity - 2 adds. Clipper (un)wrapped (to inside) would be three adds because of the extra difficulty involved in a clipper delay. It's much easier to wrap to xbody then to delay there. Like in a hopover. You delay the bag, then do the jump. [delay] [dex] . You don't get a xbody add for hopover because the contact occured on the inside. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 26 19:23:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA06268 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:23:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA06264 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:23:24 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6261) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA06257 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:23:24 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01922 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:22:44 -0800 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA15362; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:22:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:22:39 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne To: Josh Penney cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] wraps In-Reply-To: <19970126.051604.3358.2.dervish@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Josh Penney wrote: > > >Josh PennEy wrote: > >>If you delay inside and wrap to clipper, it's a total of 2 adds. > [delay][dex] > >>If you delay xbody and unwrap to inside, it's 3. [xbody] [delay] > >[dex] I don't understand how you can get a delay add for this move because the bag never leaves your foot in the first place. I think a wrap is 2 adds [dex] [crs body]. A reverse wrap is different I think you would only get *one add* [dex]. Neither of these tricks would get a delay add because the bag doesn't leave your foot. You wouldn't get a xbody add for reverse wrap because it doesn't end in a xbody. Adrian From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jan 26 22:51:14 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06997 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:51:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06993 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:51:05 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6990) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA06988 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:51:05 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02713 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:50:28 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RTO19987; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:49:39 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:38:49 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] wraps Message-ID: <19970126.174653.17486.0.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Josh PennEy wrote: >>If you delay inside and wrap to clipper, it's a total of 2 adds. >>[delay][dex] >>If you delay xbody and unwrap to inside, it's 3. [xbody] [delay] >>[dex] >Neither of these tricks would get a delay add because >the bag doesn't leave your foot. How does it get there? You have to delay it first, right? That's the add. >You wouldn't get a xbody add for reverse >wrap because it doesn't end in a xbody. No, it starts there and moves to an inside position. The only moves other than wrap that START on a delay are pendulum and rake, to which this special dexterity applies. Generally, the dexterity is before the delay, whereas in these cases it follows. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 03:54:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07867 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 03:54:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07863 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 03:54:11 GMT Received: from jboy123@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7860) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA07858 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 03:54:10 GMT From: Jboy123@aol.com Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03834 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:53:35 -0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA01550 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:53:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:53:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970126225332_174442946@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle-wraps Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Adrian wrote: >I don't understand how you can get a delay add for this move because the bag >never leaves your foot in the first place. I think a wrap is 2 adds >[dex] [crs body]. A reverse wrap is different I think you would only get >*one add* [dex]. Neither of these tricks would get a delay add because >the bag doesn't leave your foot. You wouldn't get a xbody add for reverse >wrap because it doesn't end in a xbody. I agree with this. the move is two different moves, one after the other. a wrap being one fluid move would be a refraction. I was wrong when i said that the three adds for a wrap were [dex][xbd][del], because there is no add for delay because you dont delay the bag during the move. Josh Penny wrote: >Clipper (un)wrapped (to inside) would be three adds because of the extra >difficulty involved in a clipper delay. It's much easier to wrap to >xbody then to delay there. now remember, just because a move is more difficult it doesn't mean its worth more adds. it *is* much easier to wrap to a xbody than to delay there, so it should be one add less. as for pendulums, they are different than wraps. if you never stop moving your foot after the bag is delayed, it is worth two adds [del][dex]. however, if you stall it, then stop and do a pendulum, it is two different moves, one add each. the toe delay is one for [del] and the pendulum is one for [dex]. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 05:38:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA08267 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 05:38:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA08263 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 05:38:39 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8260) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA08258 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 05:38:38 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04382 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:38:04 -0800 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA33988; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:38:01 -0500 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199701270538.AAA33988@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] wraps To: Jboy123@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:38:01 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <970126225332_174442946@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "Jboy123@aol.com" at Jan 26, 97 10:53:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Jboy123@aol.com: > > Adrian wrote: > > >I don't understand how you can get a delay add for this move because the bag > >never leaves your foot in the first place. I think a wrap is 2 adds > >[dex] [crs body]. A reverse wrap is different I think you would only get > >*one add* [dex]. Neither of these tricks would get a delay add because > >the bag doesn't leave your foot. You wouldn't get a xbody add for reverse > >wrap because it doesn't end in a xbody. > > I agree with this. the move is two different moves, one after the other. a > wrap being one fluid move would be a refraction. I was wrong when i said > that the three adds for a wrap were [dex][xbd][del], because there is no add > for delay because you dont delay the bag during the move. > > as for pendulums, they are different than wraps. if you never stop moving > your foot after the bag is delayed, it is worth two adds [del][dex]. however, > if you stall it, then stop and do a pendulum, it is two different moves, one > add each. the toe delay is one for [del] and the pendulum is one for [dex]. I think that the situation for wrap mirrors that for pendulum (rather than being different). A fluid wrap seems (to me at least) to be different than a refraction. Thus, if you never stop moving your foot on the delay it would be all part of one move (including the delay), but if you stop and stall it it would be a separate move. For example... if you do a double pickup and catch it on the inside of your foot, hesitate and then do a wrap, you get three adds for the double pickup (dex dex delay) and two adds for the wrap (dex xbod). If you do this fluidly you would get one five add move (dex dex delay dex xbod). I do not agree with the criteria that the add for delay is counted on a wrap (the logic given that it is a unique move that the dex follows the delay) because this would count the delay TWICE... in the example above it would be a delay to end the double inside pickup, and a delay in the wrap. Anyway, I am still not sure whether or not the move should be given an XBODY add in either direction. It is a unique move in which I think that the set from Xbody (in a reverse wrap) should be counted as much as the move done to cross body (in a wrap). What does everyone else think on this issue?? This applies to the dragon osis discussion as well (as that is why I began thinking about all of this). Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 06:56:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA08534 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:56:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA08530 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:56:13 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8527) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA08525 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:56:12 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04682 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:55:38 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BVG19987; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:54:17 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:51:33 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle-wraps Message-ID: <19970127.015134.3582.12.dervish@juno.com> References: <970126225332_174442946@emout09.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-5,7-9,11-17,19-21,23-26,28-31,33,35-38,40-41, 43-45,47-48,50,52-60 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I don't understand how you can get a delay add for this move because the bag >never leaves your foot in the first place. I think a wrap is 2 adds >[dex] [crs body]. A reverse wrap is different I think you would only get >*one add* [dex]. Neither of these tricks would get a delay add because >the bag doesn't leave your foot. You wouldn't get a xbody add for reverse >wrap because it doesn't end in a xbody. If wrap, pendulum and delay are the examples of 'carry dexterity', then the delay counts in the beginning. Why would there be a crossbody add for a move that does not contact crossbody? Is there one for hopover? >> You wouldn't get a xbody add for reverse >>wrap because it doesn't end in a xbody. > >I agree with this. the move is two different moves, one after the other. a >wrap being one fluid move would be a refraction. A refraction is not a wrap without the pause. A refraction has a turn into it, contacting crossbody. >Josh Penney wrote: >>Clipper (un)wrapped (to inside) would be three adds because of the extra >>difficulty involved in a clipper delay. It's much easier to wrap to >>xbody then to delay there. > >now remember, just because a move is more difficult it doesn't mean its worth >more adds. it *is* much easier to wrap to a xbody than to delay there, so it >should be one add less. Sorry, but to digress: As I said re: gyro paradox mirage, the add system does not rate the difficulty of all the moves. GPM and flurry are the same add value. But since the delay (I *think*)counts at the start, and xbody adds count at the contact it would be the other way around. >as for pendulums, they are different than wraps. if you never stop moving >your foot after the bag is delayed, it is worth two adds [del][dex]. >however, if you stall it, then stop and do a pendulum, it is two different >moves, one add each. the toe delay is one for [del] and the pendulum is one for >[dex]. The bag never leaves your foot, so the delay add has to be accounted for in the beginning. I think the question here really is, would you give a delay add for holding on to the bag after a carry? I say, no. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 14:42:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09889 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:42:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09885 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:42:38 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9882) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA09880 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:42:38 GMT Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.135]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA07188 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:42:07 -0800 Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.104]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.8.3/8.8.0) with ESMTP id JAA11610 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:42:01 -0500 (EST) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.8.5/8.8.0) id JAA08699 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:41:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:41:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701271441.JAA08699@rac4.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] toe sets versus others Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org how many people hit toe set versions beforer their counterparts? how does this affect the comparative difficulty interpretations? the natural implications is that the one hit sooner is the easier to learn. the counter argument is that the extra time learning either variation is not d due to the paradox aspect. i thought after all the voluminous arguments on paradox that there was actually a general consensus on the description as to what makes a move paradox, just not necessarily an agreement as to what moves fit the description. toe sets and't entered the picture, but i thought the agreed on description did involve a cross body set in order to produce the necessary difficulties that deserve the add. had to do with window size from my interpretation, specific aspects of dexterity motion according to others. so i guess it has to happen, the paradox debate rages in an avalanche of backsliding- now it's questionable as to the need for a preceding cross body set. if it must happen, can we try something new? like sticking to one aspect of the argument? i mean, discussion? perosnally, ithink the argument that there is no paradox in toe set mves is fair. truth said, of the toe set versions, i have only hit atom smasher, and that not well. there is no paradox element in the experience of the toe set moves. no body/momentum shifts. but there is an element to skinny winodw timing on the reverse miraging sets to mirging pickups. my two cents, and 2 dollars of typos. gotta go. jp, i guess you've found a new hobby for that free time... l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 14:44:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09910 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:44:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09906 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:44:56 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9903) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA09901 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:44:55 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA07199 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:44:24 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA09804 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:44:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: [freestyle] Wraps, Carries From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:43:50 +0000 Message-Id: <000000108782937199430@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The IFAB has discussed the wrap / carry issue at length before. Since we = were unable to resolve anything new, the old ways still prevail. Here's = how to count these things: A "move" is everything from just after one set, up to the point of the = next set. So the dexterity of a carry is appended to the move. It is not = currently counted as a separate move. Anytime you execute a delay, it it counted as a delay add. If you execute = a delay cross-body, you get a cross-body add. if you execute a wrap, you = get a dexterity add. Regular Wrap: Delay, dexterity. You execute an inside delay, and carry the = bag to the cross-body position. The add for the dexterity is the = difficulty element you are awarded rather than another delay or a = cross-body add. A cross-body add is only awarded when the initial contact = of the bag occurs cross-body. Reverse Wrap: X-Body, Delay, Dexterity. You execute a cross-body delay, = and carry the bag to a regular inside delay position. Note that there is no spinning or such going on in these moves. These are = "catch, carry" moves only. Of course, the problem with the "append-to" scoring of the carry is = runaway adds. Conceivably, you could tack on an extra add to everything = you do by executing some type of carry after the delay. Is that really = cool? What about executing two or three carries back and forth? Can you = imagine a butterfly stall with a reverse wrap, then a wrap, then a reverse = wrap again? Wow, a 6-add move! That's kinda cheesy, you know? I think that's where all this confusion is coming from. Some people have = already started distinguishing between 'fluid carries' where the delay and = carry motion are really integrated, and the 'isolated carry' moves where = the carry is kind of in it's own little world. That's really OK with me, = because I think that's the way it should be. BUT - Getting that simple = concept into a actual written rule that everyone can live with is a = different matter. You should really attend an IFAB meeting sometime = (insert derisive snorts of laughter here). Derrick Fogle= From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 17:40:22 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA10676 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:40:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA10672 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:40:12 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10669) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA10667 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:40:01 GMT Received: from mx05.erols.com (mx05.erols.com [205.252.116.249]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07961 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:39:31 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as13s27.erols.com [207.172.123.27]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id MAA01241; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:41:10 -0500 Message-ID: <32ECE9C7.5D1A@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:45:43 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Procrastinator the VIIIth CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] toe sets versus others References: <199701271441.JAA08699@rac4.wam.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up Vince? I hit inside delay to wrap to toe delay. 4 ADDS in yo Face!!!! 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 19:58:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA11322 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:58:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA11318 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:58:08 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11315) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA11313 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:58:08 GMT Received: from mx03.erols.com (mx03.erols.com [205.252.116.75]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08640 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:57:39 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as4s47.erols.com [207.172.126.47]) by mx03.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id OAA07099 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:57:45 -0500 Message-ID: <32ED0A30.4009@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:04:00 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] blurry eclipse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi people, I was wondering how many adds is blurry eclipse? Do you recieve a paradox add for it? Thanks, 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 20:55:34 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA11519 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:55:32 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA11515 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:55:30 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11512) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA11510 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:55:30 GMT Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09015 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:55:02 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32ED0A30.4009@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:57:05 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] blurry eclipse Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:04 PM -0800 1/27/97, Tu Vu wrote: >I was wondering how many adds is blurry eclipse? Do you recieve a >paradox add for it? Depends on what you call blurry eclipse. Actually, I think you're talking about miraging eclipse, i.e., no paradox. (But clarify for me which legs do which motions... I could imagine two different moves called blurry eclipse.) But in my opinion, the only way to make an eclipse "paradox" (that I can think of) is to throw another dexterity into the move... That's "paradox lunar eclipse", so if you can blur that one, it'd be a "blurry lunar eclipse" (since "blurry" implies "paradox"). Let's see if I can make that a more cogent response: blurry ... = "miraging paradox ..." But I think "blurry eclipse" is a misnomer. It's not paradox by itself. But let's take a step back and forget (for a minute) about blurry moves. In general, I believe it's safe to say that for any move to be paradox, it must contain at least one [non-carry] dexterity (I believe everyone would agree with this). (So eclipse by itself doesn't contain a non-carry dexterity, just a carry dexterity.) This gets back to my earlier theory about the true "nature" of paradox -- that it is a modifier that describes the way a dexterity has to be performed. (Harken back to my S and alpha theories.) Oopss.. There I go again. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 21:16:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11651 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:16:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11647 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:16:13 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11644) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA11642 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:16:13 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09119 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:15:44 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA25283 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:15:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] blurry eclipse From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:15:17 +0000 Message-Id: <000000109682937222917@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, Jan 27, 1997, 8:57:05 PM GMT Steve Goldberg wrote: >agree with this). (So eclipse by itself doesn't contain a non-carry >dexterity, just a carry dexterity.) This gets back to my earlier theory So what happened to the butterfly dexterity in that eclipse? One foot is doing a flying stall (which I don't consider a dexterity, but it is 2 adds [del, bdy]) while the other one is doing an out-in dexterity. A true 'blurry eclipse' would be: xb ins del (set) > op in-out dex [1 add] > op in-out dex (pdx) [2 adds] > op ins del (flying) [2 adds] > op out-in dex (while still in air) [1 add] For a total of six very sick and twisted adds. BTW, anyone hitting this move, I will have to kill the lot of you :) Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 21:48:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11737 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:48:29 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11733 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:48:28 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11730) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA11728 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:48:28 GMT Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09279 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:48:01 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000109682937222917@mlerf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:51:08 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] blurry eclipse Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:15 AM -0800 1/27/97, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: >So what happened to the butterfly dexterity in that eclipse? No, no, no, "eclipse" is not a flying butterfly -- it's a flying REFRACTION. >A true 'blurry eclipse' would be: > >xb ins del (set) > > op in-out dex [1 add] > > op in-out dex (pdx) [2 adds] > > op ins del (flying) [2 adds] > > op out-in dex (while still in air) [1 add] > >For a total of six very sick and twisted adds. I *think* you're describing "blurry lunar eclipse" which is what I was saying. It can also be thought of as a *very* similar move to blurry-dada-curve -- the difference is the same as the difference between refraction and butterfly... >BTW, anyone hitting this move, I will have to kill the lot of you :) I can hit the non-blurry version (i.e., paradox-lunar-eclipse) and I believe it's 5 adds, if that helps. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 22:11:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA11837 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:11:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA11833 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:11:38 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11830) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA11828 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:11:36 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09384; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:11:08 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RWG23743; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:05:31 EST To: brat@footbag.org Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:00:07 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] blurry eclipse Message-ID: <19970127.170329.22446.1.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-11,13-15,17,19-21,24,27-29,32-47 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:57:05 -0800 Steve Goldberg writes: >At 12:04 PM -0800 1/27/97, Tu Vu wrote: >>>I was wondering how many adds is blurry eclipse? Do you recieve a >>>paradox add for it? > >>Depends on what you call blurry eclipse. >>But in my opinion, the only way to make an eclipse "paradox" (that I >>can think of) is to throw another dexterity into the move... >>But I think "blurry eclipse" is a misnomer. It's not paradox by >>itself. Okay, clipper or toe-set miraging eclipse has no 'paradox' and gets 4 adds. >>In general, I believe it's safe to say that for any move to be >>paradox, it must contain at least one [non-carry] dexterity (I believe everyone >>would agree with this). (So eclipse by itself doesn't contain a non-carry >>dexterity, just a carry dexterity.) No, my friend, I think you're confusing 'carry dexterity' (In the cases of pendulum, wrap and rake as have been discussed at lenght here) with the 'hopover dexterity' of the eclipse. The delay of eclipse is one boring lil' delay. The body is the enourmous jump, and the dex is the "support" leg going from behind to in front of the active leg - the one performing the delay. > A true 'blurry eclipse' would be: > xb ins del (set) > op in-out dex [1 add] >op in-out dex (pdx) [2 adds] >op ins del (flying) > [2 adds] > op out-in dex (while still in air) [1 add] > For a total of six very sick and twisted adds. > BTW, anyone hitting this move, I will have to kill the lot of you :) Okay - I have hit something similar, but the non-set foot doing the eclipse: [ clip>op in> op in > same legged eclipse] I hadn't thought of the paradox add, like a blur with eclipse pickup. I *was* calling it 'blurry lunar,' as Steve says.. But Vince tells me the pdx'ing dex is shaky at best, so I never counted higher than five. Or 'Stepping atw into eclipse.' And so I stave off the Grim Reaper from The midwest yet again. Sorry, DF. ha ha ha. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 22:30:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA11942 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:30:38 GMT Received: from research.apple.com (research.apple.com [17.255.4.30]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09417 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:19:16 -0800 Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by research.apple.com (8.7.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA09761 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970127.170329.22446.1.dervish@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:22:37 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] blurry eclipse Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 5:00 PM -0800 1/27/97, Josh Penney wrote: >No, my friend, I think you're confusing 'carry dexterity' (In the cases >of pendulum, wrap and rake as have been discussed at lenght here) with >the 'hopover dexterity' of the eclipse. Well, the problem is that it has to be differentiated from the "butterfly" dexterity (which would be the way "dada" is done). The key is this: you catch the footbag on the inside (not in the cross-body position) before the hop-over. Yes, you're right, I'll agree it's probably not exactly a carry. But even if you say the other leg is doing a dexterity, it's not doing a dexterity with a bag in the air -- the bag is securely stalled at the point of the jump, so it looks more like a hop-over than anything (which is, I guess, what you're saying). But you still can't have a paradox hop-over. Doesn't make any sense. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 22:53:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA12038 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:53:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA12034 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:53:25 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12031) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA12029 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:53:25 GMT Received: from mx02.erols.com (mx02.erols.com [205.252.116.70]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09629 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:52:59 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as3s68.erols.com [207.172.127.236]) by mx02.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id RAA26479; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:52:53 -0500 Message-ID: <32ED3349.3916@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:59:21 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle-wraps References: <970126225332_174442946@emout09.mail.aol.com> <19970127.015134.3582.12.dervish@juno.com> <32ECE91E.5689@erols.com> <19970127.170329.22446.2.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > I don't care if you can hit blurriest to scorpion tail. Three. > It's like saying you'd get a delay add twice for toe stall into spin with > the bag still on your foot. Why add a delay for something that's already > delayed? I don't there is a delay add but a cross-body and dex. It's two separate moves: 1: A inside delay (1 ADD) 2: To wrap another two adds (dex and crossbody) If I'm wrong let me know, I don't care about criticism. 2 huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 22:56:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA12062 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:56:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA12058 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:56:44 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12055) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA12053 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:56:44 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09654; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:56:17 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RyP23743; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:51:42 EST To: brat@footbag.org Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:49:47 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] blurry eclipse Message-ID: <19970127.174947.22446.6.dervish@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-8,10-13,17-19 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>No, my friend, I think you're confusing 'carry dexterity' (In the cases >>of pendulum, wrap and rake as have been discussed at lenght here) with >>the 'hopover dexterity' of the eclipse. > >Yes, you're right, I'll agree it's probably not exactly a carry. But >even if you say the other leg is doing a dexterity, it's not doing a >dexterity with a bag in the air -- the bag is securely stalled at the point of >the jump, so it looks more like a hop-over than anything (which is, I >guess, what you're saying). But you still can't have a paradox hop-over. >Doesn't make any sense. > True, and that is what I said. But it *is* possible to do the dexterity and jump before the contact, it's just very, very hard to make it look like a really good eclipse (which is, I guess, what _you're_ saying). [snicker =] JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 23:03:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12107 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:03:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12103 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:03:00 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12100) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA12098 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:03:00 GMT Received: from mx02.erols.com (mx02.erols.com [205.252.116.70]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09702 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:02:33 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as3s68.erols.com [207.172.127.236]) by mx02.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id SAA29358; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32ED3587.7534@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:08:55 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Derrick Fogle, MLERF" CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] blurry eclipse References: <000000109642937219451@mlerf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 27, 1997, 8:04:00 PM GMT Tu Vu wrote: > > >I was wondering how many adds is blurry eclipse? Do you recieve a > >paradox add for it? > > xb ins del > op in-out dex [1] > op in-out dex (pdx) [2] > op ins del (flying) [2] > op out-in dex (while still in air) [1]. Now that's six sick adds. Anyone h Derrick, I was referring to miraging eclipse which Josh and Steve tell me it's only 4 adds. My friend Devin is hitting it. I can't even do eclipse let alone add mirage or blur in front of it. I agree that blurry eclipse(blur in front of an eclipse) is truly sickness. 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Jan 27 23:23:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12226 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:23:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12222 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:23:09 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12219) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA12217 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:23:09 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09799 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:22:42 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SNU23743; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:19:51 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:17:55 PST Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle-wraps Message-ID: <19970127.181756.22446.8.dervish@juno.com> References: <970126225332_174442946@emout09.mail.aol.com> <19970127.015134.3582.12.dervish@juno.com> <32ED3349.3916@erols.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-15,17-18,20-21,23-25 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Josh Penney wrote: >> I don't care if you can hit blurriest to scorpion tail. Three. >> It's like saying you'd get a delay add twice for toe stall into spin with >> the bag still on your foot. Why add a delay for something that's already >> delayed? > >I don't there is a delay add but a cross-body and dex. It's two >separate moves: > >1: A inside delay (1 ADD) >2: To wrap another two adds (dex and crossbody) >If I'm wrong let me know, I don't care about criticism. You're wrong... This is what I've been saying for two days here. A xbody add is given in the case of a xbody *contact* which there is none. The dexterity in wrap is the carry, like in pendulum or rake. The contact for wrap is the initial delay. The components of wrap are dex and delay. How could a delay add be given for just keeping the bag on your foot? The delay must be the contact. I refuse to reiterate these same points again. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 00:14:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA12551 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:14:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA12547 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:14:47 GMT Received: from jboy123@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12544) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA12542 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:14:46 GMT From: Jboy123@aol.com Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10133 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:14:20 -0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA09471 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:14:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:14:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970127184946_1859863727@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] wraps Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sunil Jani wrote: >It is a unique move in which I think that >the set from Xbody (in a reverse wrap) should be counted as much as the >move done to cross body (in a wrap). If you do this move from xbody, you get the [xbd] add from the delay in the first place, so the combination of moves gets all the adds. going the other way you get the same [xbd] add from the carry dex to the xbody. so in esscence they are worth the same amount of adds. Jboy From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 02:57:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA13335 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:57:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA13331 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:57:17 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13328) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA13326 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:57:17 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA10781 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:56:51 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VMZ23743; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:53:32 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:51:29 PST Subject: [freestyle] Apology (was Re: Freestyle-wraps) Message-ID: <19970127.215129.3518.1.dervish@juno.com> References: <970126225332_174442946@emout09.mail.aol.com> <19970127.015134.3582.12.dervish@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:59:21 -0500 Tu Vu writes: >Josh Penney wrote: > >> I don't care if you can hit blurriest to scorpion tail. I'd like to call all of your attentions to this. This is an excerpt from a private message to Tu from me. It was a personal comment -- not intending to offend, because I knew he'd know it was a private note. But when Tu cc'ed (carbon-copied) it to the group, he left out the original script of the conversation. Being out of context, it makes me look bad, like I was being a jerk in public, which I wasn't. So this is an apology to anyone who read that thought I was insulting Tu, who happens to be a good friend. Please be careful when you Cc to the listserve. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 03:15:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13469 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:15:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13463 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:15:01 GMT From: mstrong@ix.netcom.com Received: from mstrong@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13460) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA13458 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:15:00 GMT Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA10865 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:14:36 -0800 Received: from dal-tx16-40.ix.netcom.com (dal-tx16-40.ix.netcom.com [207.94.125.168]) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA19136 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:14:27 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:14:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com: Host dal-tx16-40.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-Id: <1997127211518241@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Recently, me and my friends have been trying this move, we haven't actually landed it, but one of us has made contact. I think it's a paradox da da curve. clipper > same in dex > opp out dex > opp clipper delay Originally we thought it was 5 adds. 2 dex + 1 paradox + xbdy + delay, but now I'm wondering if there should be a symposium add counted since you stall the bag on the same foot as you set it from and the opposite leg does a dexterity without the setting/stalling leg being planted. I also noticed on the huge moves list with like 186 moves (great list by the way), that a pogo paradox da da curve gets 7 adds. clip > (no plant while) op in dex > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip 3 dex + 1 symposium + 1 paradox + xbdy + delay. Should this also get an extra syposium add because of the extra symposium move? -Matt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 03:24:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13510 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:24:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA13506 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:24:07 GMT Received: from jboy123@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (13503) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA13501 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 03:24:06 GMT From: Jboy123@aol.com Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA10899 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:23:39 -0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA08278 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:23:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:23:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970127222334_1144963752@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] twirl? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org this is Jboy, starting yet another conversation. This is something i hit and i want to know if ive invented it or if it already exists. here it is: toe> op swirl [dex] > op in [dex] > op toe [del]. im not sure if it counts as a twirling mirage or something, 'cause i don't really know what that is. feedback? Jboy ps if it is new, do i get to name it? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 14:27:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA01319 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:27:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA01315 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:27:38 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1312) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA01310 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:27:36 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA13888 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:27:37 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01396 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:27:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle-wraps From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:27:12 +0000 Message-Id: <000000109982937284832@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Jan 28, 1997, 2:17:55 AM GMT Josh Penney wrote: >A xbody add is given in the case of a xbody *contact* which there is >none. This is correct. There is a big difference between what you execute and where the bag ends up. Doing a regular wrap, you execute an inside delay and a carry, but you don't ever execute a cross-body contact. It is the execution of the carry that causes the bag to end up in the cross-body position. Silly, maybe, but them's the rules. Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 14:34:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA01339 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:34:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA01335 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:34:30 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1332) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA01330 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:34:29 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA13914 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:34:31 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01513 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:34:29 -0600 (CST) From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:34:07 +0000 Message-Id: <000000110002937285247@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, at least one of you has been complaining about those monster "40 words per line" email messages. It has come to my attention that I appear to be one of the offenders. My email program doesn't insert line breaks, and I = can't seem to figure out how to make it do so automatically. I know in programs like Netscape 3.0x, you can set a "wrap long lines" = option to correct this, but on others, I don't know. Sorry for the trauma. Derrick Fogle= From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 16:31:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA01749 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:31:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA01745 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:31:21 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1742) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA01740 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:31:20 GMT Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [205.252.116.102]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA14403 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:31:22 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as16s20.erols.com [207.172.122.20]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00733; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:31:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32EE2B74.4E2F@erols.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:38:12 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Penney CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Apology (was Re: Freestyle-wraps) References: <970126225332_174442946@emout09.mail.aol.com> <19970127.015134.3582.12.dervish@juno.com> <19970127.215129.3518.1.dervish@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:59:21 -0500 Tu Vu writes: > >Josh Penney wrote: > > > >> I don't care if you can hit blurriest to scorpion tail. > > I'd like to call all of your attentions to this. > This is an excerpt from a private message to Tu from me. > It was a personal comment -- not intending to offend, because > I knew he'd know it was a private note. > But when Tu cc'ed (carbon-copied) it to the group, he left out the > original script of the conversation. Being out of context, it makes me > look bad, like I was being a jerk in public, which I wasn't. > So this is an apology to anyone who read that thought I was > insulting Tu, who happens to be a good friend. Please be careful > when you Cc to the listserve. I also would like to apologize to anyone who was offended my the message. It was not my intention to make my east coast buddy look bad. I shouldn't have Cc: the message. It was a private note between Josh and myself and I didn't realize it. Again, I would like to apologize to Josh and anyone else who was offended. 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 21:35:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03456 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:35:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03452 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:35:28 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3449) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03447 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:35:28 GMT Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.70.126.131]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16085 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:35:29 -0800 Received: from [207.70.67.61] (d61.cloud2.interaccess.com [207.70.67.61]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.8.4-IA/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA21916; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:35:07 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:41:50 -0500 To: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro), freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Everyone! >> The question *I* have is how many adds are "Toe-Set Blur" and "Toe-Set >> Blizzard" (not to be confused with Smear (pixie-mirage) and Smudge >> (pixie-reverse-mirage). > >It seems VERY clear that toe-set blur is 3 adds currently. I also think >that if you wish to grant a paradox add for these toe moves then you have >to give adds for the other permutations of mirage and rev mirage. >Steve, fact is, to give these moves their true add value according to the >move difficulty you have to play with Scott Davidson's system. > >By the way Scott, how many adds are these moves getting? The toe >version of blur BETTER get more adds than the clipper version or I'll >have to bring up that non-honorable blurry paradox dyno of yours! ;') Well, first off, Blurry Dyno is not "the". Although a relatively easy 6 add move, as 6 add moves go... it is not the. (Daryl, I have hit Double Blender using the stepping method, what else can we hit?) Anyway, like I mentioned to Goldberg, the true toe set blur is actually only worth 3 adds. Doesn't that suck? It is a truly worthy move, and friggin difficult for a 3, but thats the way the adds fall. Don't be confused between Smudge and Toe-Set-Blur, they are very different. Paraphrasing the Ironman... "It isn't what the trick is worth, but how you use it!" Under my proposed "Full Shred" event, (and I don't have control over what the tricks are worth, that is complicated, but we are working on it) the Toe-Set-Blur would inevitably be a 3.9. Anyway, See ya! Scott. Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jan 28 22:39:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03819 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:39:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03808 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:39:26 GMT Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3805) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03803; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:39:25 GMT Received: from golden.net ([199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16479; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:39:26 -0800 Received: from [207.216.76.104] (cisco6-104.golden.net [207.216.76.104]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA06887; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:26:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:40:40 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org, footbag@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Apology Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On the topic of apologies, I would like to offer my apologies to anybody whose private messages I may have Cc'd. I'm kind of new to the whole discussion group thing, and in the beginning I think I probably quoted a few personal messages. Thanks to Steve for setting my netiquette straight, and once again, I'm sorry for any problems or misunderstandings my Cc'ing may have caused. -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 00:01:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04246 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:01:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04242 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:01:45 GMT Received: from the_sock@ihug.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4239) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA04237 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:01:44 GMT Received: from ihug.co.nz (ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16890 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:01:45 -0800 Received: from port293-Auck.ihug.co.nz (port293-Auck.ihug.co.nz [202.49.255.39]) by ihug.co.nz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA04882 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:04:46 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199701290004.NAA04882@ihug.co.nz> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Sock" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:02:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Problems Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Heya all, tis just me ready to stir up some Paradox talk... Myself and my good friend Stuart were discussing Blizzard compared to Paradox Blizzard... and we couldnt decide how many adds Paradox Blizzard should get... Blizzard CLIP > OP IN [DEX] > OP OUT [DEX] [BOD] > OP TOE [DEL]. Paradox Blizzard CLIP > SAME IN [BOD] [DEX] > OP OUT [DEX] > OP TOE [DEL]. According to the above both get 4 adds? As you cant award a move 2 paradox adds, and clearly there is only one paradox in each of the moves... The same goes with Blur and Paradox Blur: Blur CLIP > OP IN [DEX] > OP IN [DEX] [BOD] > OP TOE [DEL]. Paradox Blur CLIP > SAME IN [DEX] [BOD] > OP IN [DEX] > OP TOE [DEL]. If this is correct, Its madness, because Paradox Blur is so much harder than a normal Blur, it should get 5 adds. Same goes for Paradox Blizzard. Anyone else got any thoughts on this? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 00:04:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04274 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:04:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04270 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:04:24 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4267) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA04265 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:04:21 GMT Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.70.126.131]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16904 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:04:23 -0800 Received: from [207.70.67.61] (d112.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.112]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.8.4-IA/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA22153; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:04:07 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:10:46 -0500 To: Genz Daryl S From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Everyone! On the Dragon issue, I still think a cross-body outside delay should be called "Quipper", then everything would follow suit. Quifter (drifter), Quirl (whirl to Quipper), Quark (torque to quipper), Quosis (osis to quipper) On another note, I have coined a name for the move formerly known as "Whirl to Cross body sole"... it is now "Squirrel". I have been skoolin' it, mostly because one of my prodigees (Nate) hit Symposium Squirrel. So I figured it was time for a name, it is close to a whirl, but the x-body sole is a low catch requiring an extra special crouch. It even sounds like it's little brother, whirl. I also hit Drifter to a cross body sole, and I am calling it: Squifter. I believe if any other moves are modified to end in cross-body sole, they too should follow the naming suit of adding "SQ" to the beginning of the brethern word and maybe drop the first letter or two of the source word. Keep shredding! Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 00:04:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04294 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:04:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04289 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:04:54 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4286) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA04284 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:04:54 GMT Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.70.126.131]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16914 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:04:56 -0800 Received: from [207.70.67.61] (d112.cloud.interaccess.com [207.70.66.112]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.8.4-IA/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA22255; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:04:37 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:11:17 -0500 To: "HungChang" , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle on ESPN Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Everybody! > Mike Niday wrote: > > >So, did ESPN show a little freestyle with people falling on their > >face, and then show a lot of net with people falling on their face??? > ... > >Davidson said, Freestyle is *so* much harder than net, but net, like > >sooooooo many other sports (soccer, football, baseball,etc.) can gain > >instant popularity. Why? The shallow learning curve, of course! Rebuttal: This is one of those times that I wish people would be more careful how they paraphrase people. If you look at my original message, I eloquently spent a whole paragraph explaining myself. And how, while net is hard in its own way, it is played by using the same maneuvers over and over with minor variations, and I mentioned how a lot of it is a head game... strategy and the like. I, a person who has not mastered net, cannot say how much harder freestyle is than net. I am a meager freestyler, who humbles himself against the aerial spiking lot. Katch air, and skool hard at whatever you choose to do. Everything is hard if you think about it too much. Nuff said. See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 01:01:04 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04656 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:01:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04652 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:01:01 GMT Received: from dervish@juno.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4649) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04647 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:01:00 GMT Received: from x5.boston.juno.com (x5.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.23]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17172 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:01:02 -0800 Received: (from dervish@juno.com) by x5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TwR13790; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:59:09 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:57:12 PST Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Problems Message-ID: <19970128.195712.3358.12.dervish@juno.com> References: <199701290004.NAA04882@ihug.co.nz> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8 From: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Paradox Blizzard >CLIP > SAME IN [BOD] [DEX] > OP OUT [DEX] > OP TOE [DEL]. Well, close. You have for pdx blizz..: Paradox mirage with reverse mirage pickup when in actuality it's: paradox *reverse* mirage with mirage pickup. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 01:07:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04725 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:07:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04721 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:07:06 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4718) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04716 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:07:05 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17197 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:07:07 -0800 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id UAA13393; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:07:05 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Message-Id: <199701290107.UAA13393@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Problem To: dervish@juno.com (Josh Penney) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:07:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <19970128.195712.3358.12.dervish@juno.com> from "Josh Penney" at Jan 28, 97 07:57:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh Penney wrote: > > >Paradox Blizzard > >CLIP > SAME IN [BOD] [DEX] > OP OUT [DEX] > OP TOE [DEL]. > > Well, close. You have for pdx blizz..: > Paradox mirage with reverse mirage pickup > when in actuality it's: > paradox *reverse* mirage with mirage pickup. Nope that would be paradox atom smasher. He was right in the beginning. paradox blizzard = paradox mirage with reverse mirage pickup. ALex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 01:29:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04827 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:29:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04823 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:29:44 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4820) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04818 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:29:43 GMT Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17290 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:29:43 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA02284 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:29:32 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0D41.E02CD0C0@IBM2>; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:37:04 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC0D41.E02CD0C0@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Net vs Freestyle on ESPN Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:37:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mike Niday said: >> >> >So, did ESPN show a little freestyle with people falling on their >> >face, and then show a lot of net with people falling on their face??? >> ... >> >Davidson said, Freestyle is *so* much harder than net, but net, like >> >sooooooo many other sports (soccer, football, baseball,etc.) can gain >> >instant popularity. Why? The shallow learning curve, of course! Then Scott said: >This is one of those times that I wish people would be more careful how >they paraphrase people. Now Mike says: OOPS !! I did Scott an injustice. The only thing I quoted Scott on was how freestyle was harder than net, and NOT all the other stuff in the same sentence. Even so, I quoted him out of context anyways. Now Mike will do 500 inside stalls for penance. :-) Sorry Scott ! :-o :-) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 01:39:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04881 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:39:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04875 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:39:00 GMT Received: from schneija@ucsu.colorado.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4871) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04864; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:38:59 GMT Received: from ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ucsu.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.83]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17348; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:38:59 -0800 Received: (from schneija@localhost) by ucsu.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) id SAA10207; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:38:58 -0700 (MST) From: Freestyle Jedi (Shpater Dude) Message-Id: <199701290138.SAA10207@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Subject: [freestyle] HEY FOOTBAG PROMOTERS! To: footbag@footbag.org Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:38:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hi everybody, i had an idea for promoting our sport, any discipline. I'll let the individuals decide if its brilliant or stupid, or just embarrassing. here it is: we could send any video-taped screw-ups and bloopers, etc, to America's Funniest Home Videos. Okay, so its not the classiest exposure, but just think, what if the footbag video took first place? think of the Footbag Festival/Tournament that we could throw with ten thousand dollars, and everyone who saw it on T.V. would want to come. the only drawback to appearing on that show, that i can think of, is that someone would ACTUALLY have to WATCH it to see if we get on the air. anyway, catch y'all.. shpater, dudes Jonathan Schneider may the force be with us From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 01:51:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04949 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:51:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04945 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:51:18 GMT Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4942) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04940 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:51:18 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17408 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:51:16 -0800 Received: from [207.216.76.67] (cisco5-67.golden.net [207.216.76.67]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA08679 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:50:58 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: kuchma@golden.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:05:07 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: [freestyle] Funtastik: Novice? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello Kickers! This is a question directed to anybody who has attended the Funtastik Summer Classic in recent years, or for that matter, any tournament with a so-called *novice* category. My question is: what is the skill level of novice? Are we essentially talking about first timer kickers, or people with at least a little bit of ability? I ask this because I've never been in a tournament before, but I hope to enter Funtastik's this year, but I don't know how to guage my abilities against other kickers since I've never been to a tournament before. I'd like to think that I can at least compete (hopefully somewhat successfully) at the intermediate level, but I can't be too sure. Thoughts? Comments? -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 01:58:06 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04996 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:58:05 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA04991 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:58:03 GMT Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4986) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04979; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:58:02 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17443; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:58:01 -0800 Received: from [207.216.76.67] (cisco5-67.golden.net [207.216.76.67]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA09486; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:57:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:11:40 -0500 To: Freestyle Jedi (Shpater Dude) , footbag@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: Re: [freestyle] HEY FOOTBAG PROMOTERS! Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well Jonathon, the only problem I can see with that is that basically, the exposure would be excellent for the sport.... *however*... such TYPE of exposure would offer a less than favourable view of footbag, as it would serve to lead the public to believe footbag might be: a) so difficult that everybody falls on their ass b) an embarassing sport for beginners Other than that, it's not TOO bad an idea.. kind of crazy, and it shows that you're always thinking, but I still stand by my arguments. -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 02:08:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05136 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:08:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05131 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:08:32 GMT Received: from kuchma@golden.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5127) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA05120; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:08:31 GMT Received: from golden.net (golden.org [199.166.210.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17478; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:08:28 -0800 Received: from [207.216.76.67] (cisco5-67.golden.net [207.216.76.67]) by golden.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA10967; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:08:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:22:31 -0500 To: footbag@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: [freestyle] EXPOSURE!! --> suggestion.... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This message is kind of in reference to Jonathan Schneider's suggestion of sending in some footbag blooper footage to America's funniest home videos. This lead me to want to suggest my own idea for promoting footbag: if somebody lives in a small town (or relatively small... kind of like mine where footbag is still known as hacky-sack---like it is everywhere!) and there are very few kickers around, then I have an idea for at least SOME promotion of the sport. At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I would say that many towns have annual events which bring together many people from around the city (ie: a fireworks display on Independence Day). On such days, I think it would be prudent for as many local kickers to get together and perhaps set up a little display showing off footbag as a sport. I'm sure we're all familiar with how much attention some people can get by just kicking in a small circle, but imagine how much more attention one could get if there was an actual formal demonstration etc... Footbag net, as I have experienced, really draws the inquiring eyes.... much like some pro freestyle shredding. This is basically an alternative to holding tournaments: it wouldn't cost anything, and it would expose more of the general public to the sport. Canada (where I live) celebrates it's 'birthday' every July 1st, and every July 1st, there is a fireworks display at the base of the one of the lakes on the fringes of my city. Last year approximately 5000 people attended the display, and my friends and I kicked up a small freestyle storm which drew some good attention without even meaning to... so come on kickers, if you don't have the intitiative or the funds or a lack or interest to put on a tournament (or similar function), the least we can do is put on a free public display where we show the public what the sport is all about and answer questions etc. -- Kuch E-mail: kuchma@golden.net From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 03:46:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA05808 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:46:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA05804 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:46:36 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5801) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA05799 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:46:36 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA17879 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:46:36 -0800 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA05319; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:46:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:46:27 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne To: mstrong@ix.netcom.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <1997127211518241@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 mstrong@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Recently, me and my friends have been trying this move, we haven't actually landed it, but one of > us has made contact. I think it's a paradox da da curve. > > clipper > same in dex > opp out dex > opp clipper delay That's right, it's a paradox dada. Probably one of the hardest moves to do without "the" ing it (screw it up). Wait, I guess it could be paradox ripwalk but I'm guessing it's dada. That's a very fun move, I do it all the time. Try to set it high so you have plenty of time after the paradox part to jump high enough; if you jump high the move looks so huge!! > Originally we thought it was 5 adds. 2 dex + 1 paradox + xbdy + delay, but now I'm wondering if > there should be a symposium add counted since you stall the bag on the same foot as you set it > from and the opposite leg does a dexterity without the setting/stalling leg being planted. No, for some reason, dada and paradox dada don't get a symp add. I think it's fair because otherwise paradox dada would be a very pathetic *6* add move! > I also noticed on the huge moves list with like 186 moves (great list by the way), that a pogo > paradox da da curve gets 7 adds. > > clip > (no plant while) op in dex > op in dex > (no plant while) op out dex > op clip > > 3 dex + 1 symposium + 1 paradox + xbdy + delay. Should this also get an extra syposium add > because of the extra symposium move? No, but a move that hard should. Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 04:36:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07464 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:36:16 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07460 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:36:14 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7455) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA07452 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:36:13 GMT Received: from [17.255.70.146] ([17.255.70.146]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA18111 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:36:14 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:35:28 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] EXPOSURE!! --> suggestion.... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Mike, great idea, but most of us already do that when we can. Anyway, listen, let's only carry on a conversation on one group at a time. Issues about gaining exposure for the sport really belong on "footbag".. Let's keep this already very active mailing list for freestyle discussion only. Please don't cross-post another reply to this thread or Jonathan's, thanks. (That includes this message -- I intentionally posted it on the freestyle list and not on the footbag list.) Thanks. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 06:37:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA00771 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:37:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA00767 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:37:09 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (764) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA00762 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:37:08 GMT Received: from [17.255.70.146] ([17.255.70.146]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA18558 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:36:03 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:35:50 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Queries (Dragon) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:10 PM -0800 1/28/97, Squott Davidson wrote: >.."Quipper..Quifter (drifter), >..Quirl (whirl to Quipper), Quark (torque to quipper), Quosis (osis to >quipper)...now "Squirrel"....Symposium Squirrel..special crouch. >...calling it: Squifter.. adding "SQ" to the beginning of Squott, Sqwat the SQUCK are you squalking about?! Squeve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 14:16:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA02572 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:16:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA02568 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:16:22 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2565) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA02563 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:16:22 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [206.27.194.1]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA20813 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:16:23 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [206.27.195.3]) by trib1.trib.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20879 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:16:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Problems From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:15:59 +0000 Message-Id: <000000110592937370559@mlerf.org> Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.1.1 To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Jan 29, 1997, 1:02:48 PM GMT The Sock wrote: >Heya all, tis just me ready to stir up some Paradox talk... Yep, that's the difference between putting paradox on the front end (damn difficult moves from my perspective), and putting paradox on the back end (just difficult, drop the 'damn' part). Yep, they are all worth the same amount of adds . Although they all have their own names, the generic descriptors are to specify "frontside" this or "backside" that to say in what order the moves were done. Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 19:39:34 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03892 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:39:33 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03881 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:39:30 GMT Received: from aloe@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3878) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03876; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:39:25 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22201; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:39:22 -0800 Received: (from aloe@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA25766; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:39:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:39:00 -0800 (PST) From: Juliet Pendray Subject: [freestyle] Demos at civic events To: Mike Kuchma cc: footbag@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Definitely a good idea ... we've done a few here. Not that I was part of it actually, but some of the more ambitious of our group have organized net and freestyle demos at sports events, exhibitions and stuff. And out of that, We've had new kickers join us ...AND have had local media come seek US out to do a story on this "strange" sport as a result of them seeing us kick for the public. Personally, when I have the time...:-)...I'd like to do a few impromptu demos at events/festivals where you don't need permission to set up: Make a small yet spiffy & readable sign that could be set up next to the circle or net, telling folks that wouldn't want to ask us - what the hell we are playing at! Very low key, easy to organize type of thing. juliet From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jan 29 19:49:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03959 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:49:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03948 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:49:05 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3945) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03943; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:49:04 GMT Received: from [17.255.70.146] ([17.255.70.146]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22262; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:49:04 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:48:22 -0800 To: footbag@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Re: Demos at civic events Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Another netiquette message from the list manager... Please don't cross-post messages between footbag@footbag.org and freestyle@footbag.org. If you feel they're important enough to be on both lists, they're probably "announcements" and you should send them to announce@footbag.org. Otherwise, if they're just discussion messages, then people who are on both lists end up getting two copies of every message, and nobody can keep track of which thread is on which list, as the memberships of the two lists are different. A general discussion about the sport (such as "Demos at civic events") belongs on the "footbag@footbag.org" list, in my opinion.. So let's just keep it there. If there are freestylers who want to participate in that discussion, they should feel free to join that list (see http://www.footbag.org/discussion.html for simple instructions and a form interface for joining and leaving lists). Thanks. Steve PS Again, see http://www.footbag.org/discussion.html -- if you have any questions about how to subscribe or unsubscribe from a footbag list, or switch your status, please read this document first, then write me directly if you still have questions. Thanks. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 30 20:39:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA10329 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:38:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA10325 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:38:53 GMT Received: from edwin@griggs.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10322) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA10320 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:38:53 GMT Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29930 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:38:53 -0800 Received: from webserver.griggs.com (griggs.vip.best.com [204.156.141.105]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA19186 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from webserver.griggs.com by webserver.griggs.com (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ha000631 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:40:00 +0100 X-Sender: edwin@192.168.0.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: edwin@griggs.com (edwin) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Funtastik: Novice? Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:40:00 +0100 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> My question is: what is the skill level of >>novice? ... I'd like to think that I can at least compete >>(hopefully somewhat successfully) at the intermediate level, but I can't be >>too sure. Thoughts? Comments? >>- -- Kuch By all means, play intermediate if you have the basics down. Ideally, probably with any sport, you should play with people at or above your level. You'll be amazed at how much your game will improve after just a couple of hours of play. -edwin From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jan 30 22:05:19 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA10644 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:05:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA10640 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:05:14 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10637) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA10635 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:05:11 GMT Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA30391 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:05:12 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:08:39 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Funtastik: Novice? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:05 PM -0800 1/28/97, Mike Kuchma wrote: >My question is: what is the skill level of >novice? I assume you're talking about freestyle competition (net is a different story).\ There is no novice freestyle category at any footbag tournament that I know of. Competitive freestyle is a time-consuming event, and "novice" implies first-time players, not first-time competitors, so having folks kick a footbag around for a minute is not necessarily the most interesting event, so most event directors choose not to do it. Now, some tournaments (i.e., Schwa '96 in Illinois) have had "hacky slackers" competitions, which are totally different than the IFAB freestyle events referred to above. These are typically structured like a dance contest, with groups of 3-5 people kicking in circles, and pro freestylers go through and tag the better players, who, if they earn enough tags, get to advance to the next round, etc., etc. But that's not something offered at Funtastik, and it's also time-consuming so it's not likely to pop up at many events (most of which are already stressed for time). Clearly if you're entering a freestyle competition, you should enter as "intermediate", regardless of whether you've competed before or not. (In fact, an annoying trend recently is players who have been freestyling for several years, but never competed until now, wanting to go "intermediate" when they really should go "open", just because they've never competed before. Hint, hint, to those of you who are in that category. :-)) Steve P.S. Mike, surely you're not going to wait until September for your first footbag tournament?! There will be so many other events between now and then, including at least 3 on the east coast in April, May, and/or June. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 01:18:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA11509 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:17:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA11505 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:17:51 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11502) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA11500 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:17:51 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu ([129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA31493; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:17:52 -0800 Received: from skull.cs.uidaho.edu (skull.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.108]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.1) with ESMTP id RAA09767; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by skull.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.0) with SMTP id RAA11396; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:17:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: skull.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:17:42 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Hillebrand To: Steve Goldberg cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Funtastik: Novice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > when they really should go "open", just because they've never competed > before. Hint, hint, to those of you who are in that category. :-)) > > Steve > I guess I am in that category. What does this mean? That you aren't really competing (still)? __________________________________________________________________________ Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 hootie AND phish blow From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 01:25:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA11559 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:25:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA11555 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:25:55 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (11552) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA11550 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:25:55 GMT Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA31568; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:25:46 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:29:23 -0800 To: Matt Hillebrand From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Funtastik: Novice? Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Matt Hillebrand asks: >I guess I am in that category. What does this mean? That you aren't really >competing (still)? "Open" is a *category* of competition -- it is the top level of competition, i.e., "open to all players". So the best players in the world compete in "open". Sometimes people call it "pro", but that's really a designation for whether or not you're eligible for prize money (if any) rather than your status as a player. An "open" player is playing to compete against the absolute best players at a tournament. In the World Champioships, for example, you can compete in: Intermediate Women's Intermediate Women's Open Open and your player status can be Professional Amateur So you tend to register as "intermediate amateur", or "women's open professional", etc. However, it really doesn't make any sense to register as an "intermediate professional", for example, since there's no prize money (so far) for intermediate events. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 04:32:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA12280 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:32:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA12276 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:32:32 GMT Received: from april@bayou.uh.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (12273) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA12271 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:32:32 GMT Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA32339 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:32:32 -0800 Received: from Sharber.uh.edu (SIP-16686.Public-Dialups.UH.EDU [129.7.65.46]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA09244 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:32:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:32:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701310432.WAA09244@Bayou.UH.EDU> X-Sender: april@bayou.uh.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: april@bayou.uh.edu (April Sharber) Subject: [freestyle] hello Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all!! Since my wife is going to school now that I have graduated, I am back online using her address!!! So I'm happy to once again be "in touch" with the sport, so to speak. Anyway...I'll see y'all around... Later, Dan (no longer danzilla) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 19:33:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01380 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:33:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01376 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:33:26 GMT Received: from swingert@creighton.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1373) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA01371 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:33:20 GMT Received: from bluejay.creighton.edu ([147.134.2.20]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03719 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:33:19 -0800 Received: from [147.134.107.135] (kie135.creighton.edu) by bluejay.creighton.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA203459174; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:32:54 -0600 X-Sender: swingert@bluejay.creighton.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:41:38 -0600 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: swingert@creighton.edu (Sean Wingert) Subject: [freestyle] Paradox ATW Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Is there such a move as Paradox Around the World Stall? (Dex foot is the clipper set foot?) -Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 20:24:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01643 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:24:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01639 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:24:35 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1636) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA01634 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:24:35 GMT Received: from [17.255.9.137] (microbrat.research.apple.com [17.255.9.137]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04039 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:24:34 -0800 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:27:42 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox ATW Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:41 PM -0800 1/30/97, Sean Wingert wrote: >Is there such a move as Paradox Around the World Stall? >(Dex foot is the clipper set foot?) Oh, no -- that question again. Maybe I'll just go back a few month and copy all the mail on that subject back to the list.. :-) That's the fundamental question of the "Great Paradox Debate". Do you really want to get us back into it?! The short answer is, no. But *I* think it should be "yes". You can discuss this off-line directly with me if you want, unless others really want to get back into this debate. (History will prove me right, by the way. :-) Heh heh.) But the current definition of paradox requires (among other things) that you set from a clipper and then change feet after the dexterity (i.e., you can't catch with the same foot you do the dexterity with), thereby ruling out atw. That's the shortest answer I can give. :-) (Yes, there are other rules for paradox, but this is the applicable one to your question.) BTW, Derrick recently sent out the official definition of paradox to this list; if you want, I can resend it. But it'll be on-line soon when we finish updating the IFAB rulebook for '97. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 21:01:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01760 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:01:47 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01756 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:01:45 GMT Received: from kenned57@pilot.msu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1753) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA01751 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:01:44 GMT Received: from pilot06.cl.msu.edu (pilot06.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.16]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04235 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:01:44 -0800 Received: (kenned57@localhost) by pilot06.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id QAA37777; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:01:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199701312101.QAA37777@pilot06.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox ATW To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:01:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Cameron Dean Kennedy" In-Reply-To: from "Sean Wingert" at Jan 31, 97 01:41:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > Is there such a move as Paradox Around the World Stall? > (Dex foot is the clipper set foot?) > > -Sean > >i personally believe this move should be paradox, but i don't think it qualifies under the current definition of paradox. the way i understand the current definition is that the dex foot is the set foot, but the catch foot has to be the support leg's foot. it seems that the paradox element is complete and the move should be counted as paradox , in my opinion, but i don't think it gets the add for it. i may be wrong. > -- _______________________________________________________________________________ Cameron D Kennedy | | Michigan state 1668 E Grand river | curb crime, arm the citizens. | biochem apt 155 ph 337-9470 | | genetics E Lansing MI 48827 | | footbag ______________________|_http://pilot.msu.edu/~kenned57/______________________ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 21:03:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01783 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:03:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01779 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:03:40 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1776) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA01774 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:03:39 GMT Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA04245 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:03:39 -0800 Received: from IBM2 ([207.92.232.219]) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA03943 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:03:31 -0800 Received: by IBM2 with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0F78.3A266C20@IBM2>; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:11:10 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC0F78.3A266C20@IBM2> From: Mike Niday To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox ATW Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:02:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Is there such a move as Paradox Around the World Stall? >>(Dex foot is the clipper set foot?) >>-Sean Why yes Sean, there is ! :-)) It's called Paradox Guay, and it's worth 3 ADDS. ( I'm putting on my proximity suit now... ) :-)) ( Steve, tell 'em what a proximity suit is... ) Mighty proshred@ix.netcom.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 21:11:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01860 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:11:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01856 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:10:58 GMT Received: from anaro@sas.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1853) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA01851 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:10:55 GMT Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04269 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:10:55 -0800 Received: (from anaro@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id QAA20074; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:10:52 -0500 (EST) From: anaro@sas.upenn.edu (Alessandre S Naro) Message-Id: <199701312110.QAA20074@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox ATW To: swingert@creighton.edu (Sean Wingert) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:10:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "Sean Wingert" at Jan 31, 97 01:41:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sean Wingert wrote: > > Is there such a move as Paradox Around the World Stall? > (Dex foot is the clipper set foot?) > > -Sean NOOOOOOOO!!!!! Not that again!! The answer is currently no. WE had a ragin debate over that question a few months ago, and the conclusion was that no, there is no such thing. Alex p.s. Woudln't it really be a paradox leg-over? Assuming paradox mirage is set from the left side and ends on left toe, I would think that a move set from left side that ends on right toe is a leg-over. No? p.s.s. Notice the use of left side as opposed to right clipper or right dragon, or god forbid paradox set from left outside! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jan 31 22:22:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02179 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:22:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02175 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:22:43 GMT Received: from tuanvu@erols.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2172) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02170 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:22:42 GMT Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [205.252.116.101]) by Market.NET (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04607; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:22:43 -0800 Received: from tv (spg-as23s75.erols.com [207.172.120.159]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28118; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:22:29 -0500 Message-ID: <32F271F4.7534@erols.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:28:04 -0500 From: Tu Vu Organization: Immediate Temporaries X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Goldberg CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Funtastik: Novice? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve Goldberg wrote: > There is no novice freestyle category at any footbag tournament that I >know > of. Competitive freestyle is a time-consuming event, and "novice" >implies > first-time players, not first-time competitors, so having folks kick a > footbag around for a minute is not necessarily the most interesting >event, > so most event directors choose not to do it. Steve and Novice freestylers, There are sometimes novice freestyle at east coast tournaments. This includes East Coast and Albany tulip festival. I also known that this year at the Heart of freestyle tournament there will be a beginner category. My first tournament I won novice at the Albany Tulip Festival and ever since than I have always felt that Novice was an important category at small tournaments as it eases first timers to compete. See ya in Portland 2 Huge