From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 02:13:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06091 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:12:43 GMT Received: from adrabek@eagle.cc.ukans.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3558) Received: from eagle.cc.ukans.edu (adrabek@eagle.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.3]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA03555 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:06:54 GMT Received: from localhost by eagle.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA18720; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:06:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:06:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Andrew Drabek To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Freestyle judging In-Reply-To: <199709292350.XAA04479@eniac.yak.net.taz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Whats up freestylers! After a long shred session I started thinking about how freestyle is being judged and I think that there are some things that could be better and other things could be done to eliminate a lot of the conflicts. I plan on throwing a "freestyle only" tournament that separates the objective judging and the subjective judging. One will only be judged on the presentation and the aesthetic qualities of the routine; who ever puts on the best show wins. The second will be purely objective; who ever hits the longest guiltless string wins. The two scores will be avereged for an overall freestyle score. I don't care if this system doesn't conform to the "actual rules" I just want to see how it works or if freestylers like it better or worse. What do you guys think? Would this be a tournament that you would go to or would you shy away because of the judging system? Andrew Drabek Kansas University Ellsworth 3E From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 07:52:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA08466 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:52:37 GMT Received: from cfa@footbagcanada.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8418) Received: from srv1.reelwest.bc.ca (srv1.reelwest.bc.ca [207.194.197.238]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA08416 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:51:03 GMT From: Chard Cook Received: from chard (unverified [207.194.197.163]) by srv1.reelwest.bc.ca (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:50:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:50:56 -0700 Message-ID: X-Sender: cfa@intouch.bc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Keep it clean Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I read them all. I feel compelled to comment for the first time. Any who question Steve's whining should ask themselves: Am I ever in my lifetime,going to do as much for this sport as this man already has? I think not. I read profanity today on this digest for the first time. Made me not want to read it anymore. We are all working towards the same goal here! We need to keep in mind that we are being watched by future developers and potential sponsors. Keep it clean, don't say anything here that you wouldn't say to someones face. Scott Always kickin' Chard Cook Canadian Footbag Alliance, Inc. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 17:54:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01594 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:52:28 GMT Received: from footbag13@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (308) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00306 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:06:54 GMT From: Footbag13@aol.com Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23705 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:06:54 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA21638 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971001110309_354440366@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re:[freestyle] Freestyle judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 97-09-30 22:26:25 EDT, Andrew Drabek wrote: << One will only be judged on the presentation and the aesthetic qualities of the routine; who ever puts on the best show wins. The second will be purely objective; who ever hits the longest guiltless string wins. >> <> Iím not sure if I would like Andrewís proposed style of judging but then again I do support experiments in changing the way we judge. As competitive footbaggers, we can only learn from these kind of experiments right? I do see one major flaw thoughÖone half of the judging score is to be influenced by guilt-free strings? What about the beginners who might not even be able to do any 3 add moves, let alone 3 add strings. You didnít mention anything about having different level of play brackets either! Keeping in mind your basic structure for judging, hereís my suggestionÖ Beginners: One half of score is based upon longest dropless string (players who try to score high here with a string of 130 or so toe stalls in a row will score lowest on the other half of the scoring card - presentation) Intermediates: One half of score is based upon longest tilt-free string (no one add moves) Open: One half of score is based upon longest guilt-free string The thing I like most about this system is that there are some standards set here that will help guide players into the best bracket. One thing about competition (especially smaller tourneys) is that there are a lot of players not registering to kick at the level they should be at. There are often intermediates who hang back in the beginner bracketÖto ensure a win or because of nerves. There are also a few beginners and intermediates who try to move too fastÖtrying to pull of 3 and 4 add strings when they still have trouble with 1 and 2 add strings. Oh well, just a suggestionÖ Jason p.s. <> I would go to any tournament you hosted! A different judging style would only be more of a challenge..especially for those uf us who are set in our ways of looking at competition! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 18:31:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02165 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:31:47 GMT Received: from shahrayar@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2100) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02098 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:27:10 GMT From: SHAHRAYAR@aol.com Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27032 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:27:12 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA17913 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971001142534_157745382@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 97-10-01 14:14:37 EDT, you write: << Open: One half of score is based upon longest guilt-free string >> I'd have to disagree with this...the longest string doesn't mean a whole lot as we have found in the 45 second shred, where rules had to be devoloped to eliminate the cheap 10 infinities in a row type strings. Yeah, it was a long string, but who cares? It is the content of the string, not the length that would prompt me to give a higher score in judging. Quality, not quantity... Jim From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 19:00:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02528 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:00:45 GMT Received: from klein@proscape.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2401) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02399 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:50:45 GMT Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27489 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:50:46 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCCE79.0053FC40@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:47:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] musical accompaniment Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:47:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 7 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello all, I know that this thread has been beaten dead like a flattened highway roadkill, but it's something I have pondered for a while. I love to beat box (vocal jam) and often do it to the rhythm of my freestylin. Would this be totally out of the question in freestyle competition? I am not introducing this for the sake of argument, I REALLY enjoy and DO this. -Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 19:46:36 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02965 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:46:30 GMT Received: from footbag13@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2917) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02915 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:43:11 GMT From: Footbag13@aol.com Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28317 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:43:13 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA27310 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971001154115_1031366392@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] a footbag paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I've been watching a lot of arguing lately about rules and official decisions. I completely support these arguments as a tool to make sure that everyone (IFAB included) can see all sides of any and all arguments. But some arguments I have seen, seem to be moving away from what I believe footbag is all about. How many of us said to ourselves when we first tried footbag "I'm going to compete...and I'm going to win"? I, myself, like many/most people I know, started kicking just because it was fun...because it was what my friends did for fun...it was just something to do. Yes, I compete and yes, I support competitions and the idea that we should have a set of fair, universal and update-able rules and standards for judging. I would love to see footbag gain the respect and recognition that other sports have. But, we have to keep in mind that not only are we athletes and competitors...we are so much more. ...examples... How many professional sports teams are there that go out for a beer and dinner with the opposing team after winning/losing to them? What sport will let a 12 year old beginner practice with a bunch of 20-30 something year old pros? How many foreign gymnasts do you think crashed for the night in the homes of Atlanta gymnasts during the summer Olympics? What other athlete can be sponsored by Adidas, compete at an international level, being broadcast on ESPN2 and sneak around the corner for joint or a cigarette or coffee or a beer? Yes, we want big sponsorships; yes, we want comfortable training facilities; yes, we want people to know the word 'footbag'...we want all of these things, but do we really want to become what other sports are? ...examples... Do we want to lose the family feeling at tournaments and in circles? Do we want to end up doing underwear comercials? Do we want to be subject to the distrust and suspicion of mandatory drug testing? I just want to remind everyone of the bond that footbaggers everywhere share...no matter what age, sex, religion, ethnicity, appearance or style. We all kick. This posting isn't a response to any one posting nor is it any kind of attack on any one person. It is simply a statement of my feelings about footbag...and maybe a suggestion for everyone to remember your first footbag, your first stall and the first time you saw someone kicking at a level that you thought you never could attain. I welcome any comments/arguments or anyone to answer the question... "What is footbag?" (as asked by a footbagger) Jason Phillips Ground Phlor Digs From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 20:25:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03418 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:25:47 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3380) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03378 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:23:08 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28925; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:23:08 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <971001154115_1031366392@emout13.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:24:05 -0700 To: Footbag13@aol.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] a footbag paradox Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:43 PM -0700 10/1/97, Footbag13@aol.com wrote: >Yes, I compete and yes, I support competitions and the idea that we should >have a set of fair, universal and update-able rules and standards for >judging. I would love to see footbag gain the respect and recognition that >other sports have. But, we have to keep in mind that not only are we >athletes and competitors...we are so much more. Here, here! >This posting isn't a response to any one posting nor is it any kind of attack >on any one person. It is simply a statement of my feelings about >footbag...and maybe a suggestion for everyone to remember your first footbag, >your first stall and the first time you saw someone kicking at a level that >you thought you never could attain. Few of us who've been here a long time have forgotten that, Jason. But thanks for trying to bring the rest of the (newer) members of our community a little closer to home. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 20:25:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03429 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:25:49 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1834) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01832 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:59:59 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F102.hotmail.com [207.82.250.221]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26533 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:59:58 -0700 Received: (qmail 27484 invoked by uid 0); 1 Oct 1997 17:59:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19971001175958.27483.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 10:59:57 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] final 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 10:59:57 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Here are a few things I want to express as this topic is losing steam: 1. As bold as Ryan's statements were, at least he was honest. I'm sure that many other pros felt similarly, but Ryan was the only one with the balls to actually speak out. If I was in his lavers, training like a dog for worlds, to lose to someone who MAY have had an advantage by using live music - I would have been super-pissed. Losing to another kicker is one thing, losing to a musician is another. The players take competition seriously so we have to take judging seriously. Personally, I think Pete's intentions were true in nature and his victory should be respected. However, I'd rather not see it again. 2. Final Argument: The most powerful tool a judge has is the ability to compare. We don't have an absolute scale so we have to compare one's performance to another's to come up with accurate scoring. In bowling, it's how many pins you knock down. In baseball, it's how many runs you score. But presentation judges in footbag along with other performance driven sports don't have such luxuries. With this stated, how can you possibly compare a routine using live, perhaps improvised music to a routine using recorded music. The scoring category is called MUSIC and MOVEMENT - how a player reacts to the rhythym of the music. Using recorded music, it's easy to judge - the player reacts to the music, the music can't possibly react to the player. Using live music, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the judge to know one way or the other unless the judge had already heard the selection prior to competition and knew it thoroughly! End result: inability for comparison! Technically, we're talking about two different sports. If I was judging presentation for a player using live music, I would be forced to give that player 0 points for music & movement unless I was familiar with the music being performed. It has been mentioned that ridding the sport of live music would be Draconian. As far as I know we'd only be affecting one player - Peter, if he was even considering doing this again. One player...MAYBE (How Draconian is that?) Let it be gone. Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 20:40:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03552 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:40:36 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3493) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03491 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:35:53 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29154; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:35:55 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971001175958.27483.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:36:50 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:59 AM -0700 10/1/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >I'm sure >that many other pros felt similarly, but Ryan was the only one with the >balls to actually speak out. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this. I am almost positive that most of the other players who competed in the final round at Worlds were not at all annoyed by the Diggery Doo. >If I was in his lavers, training like a dog >for worlds, to lose to someone who MAY have had an advantage by using >live music - I would have been super-pissed. Then you would have been competing for all the wrong reasons. >Personally, I think >Pete's intentions were true in nature and his victory should be >respected. However, I'd rather not see it again. I'd *love* to see it again. So there's where we differ. I think it was a serious moment in footbag history -- and a good one, at that. >With this stated, how can you possibly compare a routine using live, >perhaps improvised music to a routine using recorded music. The scoring >category is called MUSIC and MOVEMENT - how a player reacts to the >rhythym of the music. Using recorded music, it's easy to judge - the >player reacts to the music, the music can't possibly react to the >player. Using live music, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the judge to know one way >or the other unless the judge had already heard the selection prior to >competition and knew it thoroughly! End result: inability for >comparison! Technically, we're talking about two different sports. That's a reasonable interpretation. However, I disagree that it's "IMPOSSIBLE" for a judge to judge this. I think it may be more difficult to judge, but nobody said judging should be trivial. Especially qualitative judging. >If I was judging presentation for a player using live music, I would be >forced to give that player 0 points for music & movement unless I was >familiar with the music being performed. That doesn't make much sense. >It has been mentioned that ridding the sport of live music would be >Draconian. As far as I know we'd only be affecting one player - Peter, >if he was even considering doing this again. One player...MAYBE (How >Draconian is that?) Let it be gone. Peter is not the only player to ever compete in the past to live music. And he won't be the last, as long as I'm an active member of the IFAB. :-) Look at the freestyle flying disc rules and get back to me. They are about ten years ahead of us. The parallels are uncanny. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 21:24:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA04195 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:24:09 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4088) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04086; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:14:55 GMT Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29844; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:14:53 -0700 Received: from station33.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-233.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.233]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09851; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971001141002.0068e888@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:10:02 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] NEW FOOTGAE AT LAST!!!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yes! For all you hardcore freestylers, THE TIME HAS COME!!! A new shred tape has just been finished by the Vu Bros. No this is not RAW SHRED 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7! This is an edited shred tape featuring The best tricks and combos from western regionals 97 and worlds 97. This is a service to YOU, the dedicated freestyler so no griping! The tape is not elaborate as a "RAW SHRED" quality tape but features *THIS* year's phattest stuff! The tape is over an hour long and does feature the sacred automotive jam that may be Kenny Shults Final JAM! The price is $15 US. So anyone intrested in getting this tape please feel free to e-mail me at: tuhuge@sfsu.edu or send a check or money order to: Freestyle Tape 4533 California Street San Francisco, CA 94118 Thanks to all! 2 huge P.S For you routine heads and NET fellows, A routine tape and Net finals tape are in the works! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:18:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04664 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:18:43 GMT Received: from casey@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4375) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04373 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:40:57 GMT Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA30264 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:41:00 -0700 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06183 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:40:41 -0500 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199710012140.QAA06183@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: [freestyle] that damned music To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:40:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just wanted to point out that the instrument is spelled "digeridoo." It was bothering me, so I looked it up. That is all. Whee. -- Casey Zacek Senior Systems Administrator * Programmer NETCOM Interactive From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:18:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04673 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:18:46 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4458) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04456 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:58:24 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F32.hotmail.com [207.82.250.43]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA30558 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:58:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 29695 invoked by uid 0); 1 Oct 1997 21:58:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19971001215859.29694.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:58:58 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:58:58 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I love it when my words are ripped apart and criticized. That was SUPPOSED to be my final word, but this will instead. Here it is: 1. Peter is awesome. He is the world champ. He is the best player in the world. He is very creative. 2. I believe that live music can be unfair in competition. 3. Competition isn't everything in footbag, in fact it's only a teenie, weenie part of it. However, if were going to have competition, and we want the sport to be popular, we need to keep it fair. 4. I believe in fair competition. That's all, nothing else. That's what I should've written when I started. Let's all take a chill pill, listen to each other's opinion and move on with our lives. (Steve). Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:22:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04714 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:22:47 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4632) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04630 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:17:35 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30849 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:17:37 -0700 Received: from coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08875; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:17:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.5) id RAA11458; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:17:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:17:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Footbag13@aol.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a footbag paradox In-Reply-To: <971001154115_1031366392@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Right on, Jason! I've had a lot of the same thoughts about footbag. As much as we focus on growing the sport, I hope we don't start to get "too big", ya know. I'd hate to see footbag changed into "not footbag" just to make it more popular. The appeal lies in the fact that it's not like a lot of other sports. Mother of Grace b.5-15-95 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:44:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04916 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:44:20 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4725) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04723 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:24:18 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA31007 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:24:22 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971001215859.29694.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:25:18 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:58 PM -0700 10/1/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >I love it when my words are ripped apart and criticized. That was >SUPPOSED to be my final word, but this will instead. Here it is: Told you not to post it. :-) >That's what I should've written when I started. Let's all take a chill >pill, listen to each other's opinion and move on with our lives. >(Steve). Hah hah! But my life *is* footbag (and annoying you). Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:44:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04934 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:44:28 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4762) Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04760 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:27:15 GMT Received: from coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10004; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:27:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.5) id RAA12578; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:27:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:27:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Andrew Drabek cc: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Andrew Drabek wrote: > The second will be purely objective; who ever hits > the longest guiltless string wins. Should I muddy the waters by pointing out that choosing guiltlessness as a criteria is a subjective call? If it was me designing a judging system, I would put more emphasis on equal use of both sides of the body. Maybe matched pairs or combos or something .But that's just my own subjective opinion. I'm not saying you shouldn't try your judging system, just once again pointing out that freestyle judging, like journalism, can't be objective. Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 00:53:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05858 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:52:54 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5824) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05822 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:49:26 GMT Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00445 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:49:31 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA17967 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:49:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mod-ca5-24.ix.netcom.com(207.92.167.88) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016847; Wed Oct 1 19:44:52 1997 Message-ID: <3432EE60.6877@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:44:16 -0700 From: Mike Niday Reply-To: proshred@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents References: <19971001175958.27483.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> Here are a few things I want to express as this topic is losing >> steam: ( blah blah blah ) There is only *one* thing I want to express as this topic is losing steam: T H A N K G O O D N E S S ! ! ! ! ! Mighty Smile people - just teasing - go SHRED !! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 02:06:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06416 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:05:53 GMT Received: from regul8tr@uclink4.berkeley.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6203) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.12]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06179 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:41:20 GMT Received: from hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU (hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.101.78]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA27506 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU with Microsoft Mail id <01BCCE99.25FA2580@hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:38:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCCE99.25FA2580@hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU> From: Ryan Mulroney To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Hey Dan: AMEN!!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:37:51 -0700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Fellas, I would just like to thank Dan for his support....He is so special. Basically, I took a whole bunch of crap for being honest and it was nice to here that Dan felt similarly. That's about it, YOU DA MAN DAN!!! L8r, Regul8r From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 02:26:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06588 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:26:37 GMT Received: from j1876@tir.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6455) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA06453 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:09:33 GMT Received: from sun.tir.com (sun.tir.com [205.138.41.6]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01528 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:09:36 -0700 Received: from default (an169.tir.com [205.218.86.107]) by sun.tir.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12108 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> From: "Jay Moldenhauer" To: Subject: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:54:27 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of discussion. Jayman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 05:30:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA07705 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:29:49 GMT Received: from eric@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7524) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA07522 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:04:41 GMT Received: from stick.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03289 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:04:47 -0700 Received: from localhost (eric@localhost) by stick.netcomi.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04227 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:04:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: stick.netcomi.com: eric owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:04:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change In-Reply-To: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Jay Moldenhauer wrote: > Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of > discussion. > Jayman well, i for one, feel really stupid for not thinking of this already. i think it's a great idea. eric dallas footbag club p.s. REMINDER to anyone who is anywhere close...the texas state championships are not this weekend, but the NEXT...the weekend of the 11th. if you can, SHOW UP! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 18:03:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01893 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:01:02 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10197) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA10195 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:01:46 GMT Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.137]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07397 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:01:56 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04883 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10351 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710021401.KAA10351@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] live music Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org in my previous letter, somehow much of what i intended to say didn't make it to the listserve. must of been a hiccup in the transalation from my editor. in any case, one idea that i felt a need to express was thatif the live music is what peop is what people think is great, and the element of team presentation iss what people hate, then why not stipulate that the musician not be able to see the performer during routine? also, has anyone actually tried to examine the cards to find out if pete was judged unfairly? did he score unusually higher in any of the music related fields? keeping in mind thathe always does anyway, it may be worthwhile to compare his scores this year with his scores in past years. These were points that Ryan developed, and we should explore them, if we are interested in resolving the issue. instead of endlessly comparing our opinions. l8r- procrastin8r From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 18:32:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02219 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:32:26 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2173) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02171 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:28:59 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11094; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:27:49 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710021401.KAA10351@rac2.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:28:39 -0700 To: Procrastinator the VIIIth From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:01 AM -0700 10/2/97, Procrastinator the VIIIth wrote: >in my previous letter, somehow much of what i intended to say didn't make it >to the listserve. must of been a hiccup in the transalation from my >editor. Maybe it was karma paying you back for all those places you should've used your backspace key. :-) >in any case, one idea that i felt a need to express was thatif the live >music is what peop >is what people think is great, and the element of team presentation >iss what people hate, then why not stipulate that the musician not >be able to see the performer during routine? We debated and discussed this at the IFAB meeting; it was generally agreed that this was a silly stipulation; the presentation judges are perfectly capable of making the appropriate judgment call. >also, has anyone actually tried to examine the cards to find out if >pete was judged unfairly? >did he score unusually higher in any of the music related fields? >keeping in mind thathe always does anyway, it may be worthwhile >to compare his scores this year with his scores in past years. The results have been on-line for a while now. Anyone can go look at them. But for the sake of this discussion, here are the details from the judging cards for the relevant (final) round: comp pres drops adds ctcts ratio total Kremer Steve 7.80 5.70 3 182 74 2.46 22.03 Nelson Greg 8.30 6.20 7 251 99 2.54 22.80 Gehrman Ahren 7.20 6.43 5 200 73 2.74 22.12 Mulroney Ryan 7.80 7.20 5 212 89 2.38 23.25 Irish Peter 7.90 8.70 0 225 89 2.53 26.38 Wulff Eric 8.60 8.10 4 210 85 2.47 25.27 Reese Rick 8.50 7.70 4 182 67 2.72 24.74 Davidson Scott 9.40 7.57 3 214 80 2.67 26.03 Composition delays dexterity x-body body unusual comp Kremer Steve 2.60 1.90 1.20 1.50 0.60 7.80 Nelson Greg 2.40 2.00 1.90 1.60 0.40 8.30 Gehrman Ahren 2.30 2.00 1.70 0.90 0.30 7.20 Mulroney Ryan 2.70 2.00 1.70 1.00 0.40 7.80 Irish Peter 2.50 2.00 1.40 1.50 0.50 7.90 Wulff Eric 2.50 2.00 1.90 2.00 0.20 8.60 Reese Rick 2.60 2.00 1.60 1.60 0.70 8.50 Davidson Scott 3.00 2.00 2.00 1.60 0.80 9.40 Presentation judge1 judge2 judge3 judge4 Kremer Steve 6.40 5.20 5.50 5.70 Nelson Greg 6.50 5.80 6.30 6.20 Gehrman Ahren 6.90 6.20 6.20 6.43 Mulroney Ryan 7.20 7.50 6.90 7.20 Irish Peter 8.70 8.70 8.70 8.70 Wulff Eric 8.30 8.10 7.90 8.10 Reese Rick 8.50 7.50 7.10 7.70 Davidson Scott 8.20 7.40 7.10 7.57 I think the numbers make it clear: Pete was the only dropless player, so obviously his routine will score higher on presentation as a result, as well as in the mathematical computation. I mean, he had *3* less drops than the next best player. That means a great deal in the open singles freestyle event. So sure, he may have gotten some presentation benefit (as I think he should have) for cavalier use of a live digeridoo, but it wasn't so much as to be "unfair". Unfair is that the other players had bad lighting conditions and a slight breeze since this year's freestyle finals, for the first time in my memory, weren't held indoors. If you want unfair, *that* was unfair. Perhaps the lighting and the outdoors conditions could be a more relevant contributing factor to Ryan, among others, having far too many drops. If Ryan had *hit* his routine we could actually compare the two. But how do you compare a 5-drop finals routine to a no-drop routine? I think it's a red herring to say it was the music. I'm on a mission to ensure that the freestyle competition at Worlds is never again held outdoors. Anyone want to join me in that mission? Those halogen lights were *terribly* annoying, ruined most of the videophotography, got in the eyes of the players, and created aweful shadows. The mats were great, but the underlying surface was slightly slanted, there was an occasional breeze which can sometimes throw people way off, and worst of all, there were EXTREMELY loud fireworks reverberating and reflecting all through the plaza during the doubles event, which basically RUINED it. Live music wouldn't have made much difference if the fireworks had been going on during the singles. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 18:57:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02736 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:57:56 GMT Received: from 00201887@bigred.unl.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2476) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02474 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:43:45 GMT Received: from bigred.unl.edu (bigred.unl.edu [129.93.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11411 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:43:44 -0700 Received: (from 00201887@localhost) by bigred.unl.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id NAA28530 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:43:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Theron A Troxel <00201887@bigred.unl.edu> Message-Id: <199710021843.NAA28530@bigred.unl.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:43:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, According to Steve's last post (the one with the individual scoring) I had a couple questions about it. From what I got from the info Pete might have had a dropless routine, but it was less contact add then 4 other people. What I'm trying to get at is when making a routine do you want to make it easier so there is no drop and your presentation scores increase. If so, this doesn't sound like the bap philosphy of pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other people's views on this? -- --------------------------- @ Theron Troxel \_|_/ UNLFC President | o 00201887@bigred.unl.edu /_\_ http://www.unl.edu/crec/SC/footbag \ ------------------------------------- From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 19:16:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03217 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:16:08 GMT Received: from casey@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3074) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03072 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:06:44 GMT Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12013 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:06:46 -0700 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00886 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:28 -0500 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199710021906.OAA00886@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Theron A Troxel spoke forth with the blessed manuscript: > According to Steve's last post (the one with the individual scoring) I > had a couple questions about it. From what I got from the info Pete > might have had a dropless routine, but it was less contact add then 4 > other people. What I'm trying to get at is when making a routine do > you want to make it easier so there is no drop and your presentation > scores increase. If so, this doesn't sound like the bap philosphy of > pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed > with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is > dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other > people's views on this? Basically, the judging system isn't based on bap philosophy. -- Casey Zacek Systems Administrator * Programmer NETCOM Interactive From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 19:16:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03270 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:16:48 GMT Received: from klein@proscape.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3188) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03186 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:15:49 GMT Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12194 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:15:51 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCCF45.AEDD4100@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:13:05 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Translating the Zone Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:12:49 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 23 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Often immediately after I complete a juggle, I can't quite recall the sensation and general awareness of my mental state during the juggle. In the midst of shredding, it's like part of my actions get determined by conscious thought while the other part simply flow out in a stream of unreflective habitual reaction. I am often not really thinking, I am just doing. So much mental energy gets consumed by the actual performance that little space is left for a reflective "pat on the back" or flash of one's girlfriend or some other extraneous rumination. My body just assumes this stream of actualizing energy, I feel as though I am slightly elevated from the ground, almost floating. I have heard fellow shredders say things such as, "I forgot to breath," and "I didn't even realize there was a fire alarm," after completing some deep, zone-realized shredding. People have asked me, and I have asked myself, "What does it feel like to do that?" Other than simple explanations such as; empowering, awesome, surreal, etc. I find it really difficult to articulate the mid-zone experience of shred. A heightened, ethereal, semi-conscious state of being mixed with an incredible outlay of energy and concentration is about the best one sentence attempt that I can think of right now. How do you all feel when you are WAY down in it. Not right after, but during. What goes through your heads, heads? Shred hard and long. Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 19:28:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03433 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:28:29 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3405) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03403 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:27:58 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12406; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:27:58 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710021906.OAA00886@gravy.netcomi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:28:54 -0700 To: Casey Zacek From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:06 PM -0700 10/2/97, Casey Zacek wrote: >Basically, the judging system isn't based on bap philosophy. Exactly. The system we use at Worlds is a "presentation-oriented" judging system. Scott Davidson proposed last year an entirely technical event that concentrates on add-contact ratios, specific strings that you tell the judges you're going to attempt, and a specific number of strings with kicks in between. If you want, I can repost Scott's message from last year. It's an interesting system, and is based on the system used in Diving. But more importantly, to address Theron's comments, the formula-based judging system used to compute the results that you saw *does* take technical difficulty into account along a couple of dimensions, and has been adjusted over the years to try to be the most reflective of who's the "best" at that given moment. Not only do you get "credit" for the total adds, but also for the "add/contact" ratio, as *well* as tick-marks on all the "comp" cards where your moves are unique. (So for instance, the dexterity part of a Torque is unique relative to the dexterity part of a Barfly.) But you can't look at just ONE part of the results to say so-and-so should have won. You have to look at the entire thing. In Mixed Doubles Freestyle, Lisa and Greg beat me and Sam because they had more *difficulty*, even though we beat them on both the Team and Presentation cards. (We had one more drop than them, too.) So the issue isn't cut and dried. But yes, drops are weighted heavily in the current system; and the rationale is that players should not attempt tricks they can't do consistently. Ryan proved in the second round that he *can* hit the tricks consistently; but he failed to do so in the final round. End of story. If he'd have hit his routine in the final round, he may very well have won, Pete playing to live music or not. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 20:00:17 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03714 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:00:10 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3542) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03540 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:41:11 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12698 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:41:12 -0700 Received: from skull.cs.uidaho.edu (hill9361@skull.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.108]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.1) with ESMTP id OAA18074 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by skull.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id MAA02170 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: skull.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Hillebrand To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199710021906.OAA00886@gravy.netcomi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed > > with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is > > dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other > > people's views on this? I agree! I also think that it is too bad drops are so detrimental to your score....It kind of scared me my first time competing. I think I probably would have had fewer drops if I hadn't been worrying about it so much. > Basically, the judging system isn't based on bap philosophy. Well, there oughta be one that is. ______________________________________________________________________ Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 20:41:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA04223 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:41:51 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4149) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA04147 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:36:04 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13542 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:36:05 -0700 Received: from sp2n09.missouri.edu (sp2n09.missouri.edu [128.206.2.17]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA118576; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:35:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by sp2n09.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA34234; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:33:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: sp2n09.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:33:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@sp2n09.missouri.edu To: Jay Moldenhauer cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change In-Reply-To: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of > discussion. > > Jayman That is the best idea I have heard in a long, long, time. Joe Marschall From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 21:28:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA04805 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:28:09 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4746) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04744 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:27:38 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14347 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:27:41 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:28:29 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:33 PM -0700 10/2/97, Joe Marschall wrote: >> Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of >> discussion. >That is the best idea I have heard in a long, long, time. This idea (of having the musician(s) facing away) was brought up at the IFAB meeting, and most everyone on the committee agreed (at the time) that it was a little bit extreme. If we're going to allow live music, then we have to rely on the presentation judges to take this into account. There were too many possibilities of problems with making the wording clearly indicate that the music couldn't follow the player, and we ended up by agreeing that the judges can always make the call. It seemed overkill to enforce a "no see" policy. It also seems like such a rule would put a chilling effect on live music, and we weren't sure that's what we wanted. It may turn out that all choreographed freestyle in the future is performed to live music; why nip that trend in the bud if it ends up being the wave of the future? We thought, too, that this type of thing happens so rarely right now, that we wanted to avoid making a hard-and-fast rule disallowing anything until we (as a community) had more experience with the matter. I agreed with the bulk of the other committee-members, and I think it's frequently better to take things slowly than to be reactionary. Yes, the fairness issue is very important, but perhaps we still haven't come up with a good compromise. I'm personally willing to reconsider the "musician faces the other way" idea, although I have several reservations. Either way, let's get one thing straight: the IFAB has ruled on this issue, and, like all other IFAB rules, the period of validity is January to December, 1998. (There was an even more controversial change in the net rules this year, but again, we will stick to it and reconsider it at the next meeting for the '99 rulebook.) I and the other IFAB members are always open to ideas and willing to discuss any rules or proposed rules; I hope nobody has taken my participation in this discussion the wrong way. IFAB is also open to bringing new members onto the committee (but remember, it's a thankless job!). Just realize that any changes in the existing rules won't go into effect until January, 1999. I urge everyone to understand and accept this. Live music will be allowed at next year's Worlds; but perhaps because of the controversy, nobody will choose to take advantage of the option. That would be fine with me. :-) By the way, the floor is open to suggestions as to whether or not the freestyle format at Worlds should even use the formula-based judging system. What do people think of the ranked-component system? I think IFAB has a long way to go to rework the freestyle rules to make things more clear-cut for the competitors. I'm prepared to try to help do that. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 21:49:05 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA05059 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:48:52 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4995) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04993 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:46:20 GMT Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14625 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:46:23 -0700 Received: from station10.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-210.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.210]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09690 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971002144204.0069912c@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 14:42:04 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] A CORRECTION!!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971001141002.0068e888@sfsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org A change from the last message! >send a check or money order to: > >Freestyle Tape >4533 California Street >San Francisco, CA 94118 A HUGE Correction!!!! You should make checks payable to: Tuan Vu If anyone sent us a check already that isn't addressed to him we'll send it back to you with our apologies!!! Sorry for the mishap!!!! 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:55:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02067 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:54:22 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10309) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10307 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:19 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24909 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:22:28 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.176] (d176.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.176]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA14691; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:18:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:27:53 -0700 To: Andrew Drabek , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Andrew and Everyone! >judging and the subjective judging. One will only be judged on the >presentation and the aesthetic qualities of the routine; who ever puts on >the best show wins. The second will be purely objective; who ever hits >the longest guiltless string wins. The two scores will be avereged for an >overall freestyle score. I don't care if this system doesn't conform to >the "actual rules" I just want to see how it works or if freestylers like >it better or worse. > >What do you guys think? Would this be a tournament that you would go to >or would you shy away because of the judging system? I would be there in a heartbeat. I have been a proponent of exploring different ways of judging in competition for many years. Although, I am not sure if Andrew has thought through the rules yet, but we could use such an event to test all kinds of different freestyle formats. My latest favorite is like this... No competition. Instead of a prize pool, the money would be divided evenly amongst the "invited" shredders. They would then work for their money by performing whenever necessary... to the highest professional standards. Sure, we could do a "mock" tourney to figure out who "won" for the audience... that would be fun. But this way, we could have a tourney that could feature the likes of "Tim Kelly," and "Josh Casey" and those who choose not to compete under the current system for a variety of reasons. Now to find a sponsor... See ya! Scott Davidson enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:55:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02058 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:54:21 GMT From: samuelj@HUTCHCC.EDU Received: from samuelj@hutchcc.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10017) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10015 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:52:03 GMT Received: from axp21.hutchcc.edu ([207.49.201.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA24000 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:52:11 -0700 Received: by hutchcc.edu (MX V4.2 AXP) id 19; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:50:41 CST Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:50:41 CST To: FREESTYLE@footbag.org Message-ID: <009BB359.82BCDA33.19@hutchcc.edu> Subject: [freestyle] COMPETITION Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I would just like to ask all you kickers what level of play were you at when you went to your first tournament. Were you already doing 3 and 4 add moves? And what level should I be at before I go to my first tournament? Jeremy Samuel SAMUELJ@HUTCHCC.EDU From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:55:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02078 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:54:23 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10323) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10321 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:23 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24921 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:22:32 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.176] (d176.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.176]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA14719; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:18:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:28:01 -0700 To: Ida Bettis Fogle , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Ida! >On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Andrew Drabek wrote: >> The second will be purely objective; who ever hits >> the longest guiltless string wins. Then Ida wrote: >Should I muddy the waters by pointing out that choosing guiltlessness as a >criteria is a subjective call? If it was me designing a judging system, I >would put more emphasis on equal use of both sides of the body. Maybe > matched pairs or combos or something .But that's just my own subjective >opinion. Then I'm saying: Design an event, submit it to Andrew, then go to the event and compete in it. What a great opportunity to shape freestyle to your way, Ida! Then everyone else can compete in the event you designed, that would be fun. See ya! Scott From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02119 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:30 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10318) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10314 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:22 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24916 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:22:32 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.176] (d176.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.176]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA14704; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:18:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:27:56 -0700 To: SHAHRAYAR@aol.com, freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Everyone! ><< Open: One half of score is based upon longest guilt-free string >> > >I'd have to disagree with this...the longest string doesn't mean a whole lot >as we have found in the 45 second shred, where rules had to be devoloped to >eliminate the cheap 10 infinities in a row type strings. Yeah, it was a long >string, but who cares? It is the content of the string, not the length that >would prompt me to give a higher score in judging. Quality, not quantity... Contrair, contrair!!! The "Longest Guiltless String" contest has an "Honor" rule that prohibits players from exhibiting the lowest form of "winning at any cost" method mentioned above. It states (something along the lines of) that if players don't make an effort to have a non-repeating string, that the competitors can have a conference and disqualify the run, or if that doesn't work, then lash them with wet lasagna noodles. (Or something like that). There is no honor in winning in the style mentioned above. However there may be money in it. (which, i believe, would make it "less" honor.) It is a fun contest, and easy to judge. We have run it a bunch of times and it works wonderfully! See ya! Scott From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02140 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:34 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (415) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00413 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:47:54 GMT Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.137]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26911 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:40:50 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11655 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:40:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22400 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710031540.LAA22400@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] IFAB. live music, ramifications... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey again all, Dan, Ryan- would the lack of view for the musician solve your problems with live music in competition? Are there other problems? I think the goal with any judging system should be to eliminate as much as possible the responsibility the judges have to be less subjective. It's human nature to be subjective, and a players wish to be judged fairly. Ideally, rules are created to allow athletes to compete at their highest skill level in order to determine who has the greatest skill. The decision to allow live music is NOT A RULE. The decision was made to allow the exploration of a new development in the sport. To see how it affects fair play. To give it a chance. To see what rules may be needed. The directors are left with the responsibility to set the rule for the players to ensure skill levels are compared accurately. And the competitors have the responsibility to find out what rules they are being governed under by the tournament directors to best represent themselves in competition. There is nothing wrong with the IFAB decision. All it ultimately does is encourage controversy to develop the sport. It is the players responsibility to ask the directors what rules they are being evaluated within their contests of skills. And it is the sanctioned tournament directors responsibility to represent the IFAB rulings in whatever fashion the players deem is most fair. Because both exist as an entity for the sport, and the players. at least i think thats the way its supposed to work... 'm sure i'll find out where i am wrong soon. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02153 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:36 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1519) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01517 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:41:15 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F59.hotmail.com [207.82.250.145]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28295 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:34:23 -0700 Received: (qmail 19886 invoked by uid 0); 3 Oct 1997 17:34:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19971003173422.19885.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:34:22 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Difficulty in Routines Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:34:22 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Theron Troxel wrote: >According to Steve's last post (the one with the individual scoring) I >had a couple questions about it. From what I got from the info Pete >might have had a dropless routine, but it was less contact add then 4 >other people. What I'm trying to get at is when making a routine do >you want to make it easier so there is no drop and your presentation >scores increase. If so, this doesn't sound like the bap philosphy of >pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed >with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is >dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other >people's views on this? Dan Kramer writes: One of the problems with current worlds judging is that it gives very little incentive to try more difficult moves. For a prime example, let's look at Ryan's second round at worlds (ya know, the dropless super-hein routine from hell) Afterwards, the overwhelming concensus was that it was certainly the best routine of the entire second round and some even thought it might have been the best routine ever! So why wasn't Ryan ranked first going into finals..or even second? If I remember correctly, he was ranked towards the middle of the pack! The reason is Ryan didn't do a lot of the easier moves that score very well in exchange for some super-huge moves. Here's an example: Ryan hit flurry (for those who don't know, triple dex - basically a barrage with another leg-over) in the middle of his routine. Let's compare the scoring of a flurry to an around the world. For an around the world, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .02 for the adds = .22. For a flurry, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .04 for the adds = .24 Only .02 difference when your total score can be up to 30.0! If more reward was given for bigger moves, you will see bigger moves. Nuff said. Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02169 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:39 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1577) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01575 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:51:25 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F100.hotmail.com [207.82.250.219]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28447 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:44:32 -0700 Received: (qmail 26347 invoked by uid 0); 3 Oct 1997 17:44:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19971003174404.26346.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:44:04 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Translating the Zone Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:44:04 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Often immediately after I complete a juggle, I can't quite recall the >sensation and general awareness of my mental state during the juggle. In >the midst of shredding, it's like part of my actions get determined by >conscious thought while the other part simply flow out in a stream of >unreflective habitual reaction. I am often not really thinking, I am >just doing. So much mental energy gets consumed by the actual >performance that little space is left for a reflective "pat on the back" >or flash of one's girlfriend or some other extraneous rumination. My >body just assumes this stream of actualizing energy, I feel as though I >am slightly elevated from the ground, almost floating. I have heard >fellow shredders say things such as, "I forgot to breath," and "I didn't >even realize there was a fire alarm," after completing some deep, >zone-realized shredding. People have asked me, and I have asked myself, >"What does it feel like to do that?" Other than simple explanations such >as; empowering, awesome, surreal, etc. >I find it really difficult to articulate the mid-zone experience of >shred. A heightened, ethereal, semi-conscious state of being mixed with >an incredible outlay of energy and concentration is about the best one >sentence attempt that I can think of right now.How do you all feel when >you are WAY down in it. Not right after, but during. What goes through >your heads, heads? >Shred hard and long. >Ethan When I'm kicking, I think of how much higher my underwear is wedging up my ass with every move. That's when I know I'm in the zone. Obligatory :>) DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:59:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02188 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:59:00 GMT From: Becca English-Ross Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1819) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01817 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:17:49 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28853 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:10:56 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.97]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAA161 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:11:42 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] freestyle finals Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:11:42 -0700 Message-ID: <19971003181141396.AAA161@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Theron wrote: >I would rather see a routine packed >with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is >dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. As a player this may be cool, however, if we ever want freestyle to be a performance sport appreciated by non-players it is VERY important that the routines are dropless or near perfect (this doesn't mean they can't be packed with 4 or 5 add moves) because that's what sports fans are expecting. Watch gymnastics where the commentators freak out if someone steps on the line in the floor exercise or diving where the move was performed well but there was a splash. Audiences are typically more impressed by a dropless, easier routine than a more difficult routine with drops. Steve wrote: >Unfair is that the other players had bad >lighting conditions and a slight breeze since this year's freestyle finals, >for the first time in my memory, weren't held indoors. If you want unfair, >*that* was unfair. FYI, for many years in Colorado the freestyle finals were held outside. There was one year where the wind was so bad during freestyle finals that the giant Hacky Sack balloon blew away (I wasn't there but it's a great image). So, in the middle of the final round they moved the finals to a prison (lots of prisoners for spectators). The three people who didn't have to kick in the wind outside won. I agree that it is much more difficult to freestyle outside and conditions are harder to control. So, Steve will you ever move freestyle at Western Regionals indoors? also in my opinion if Ryan had his second round routine in the finals, I think he would've won. If this had happened would we be having this discussion now? peace, becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:29:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02598 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:29:24 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2549) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02547 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:27:33 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30142; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:20:37 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971003173422.19885.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:21:26 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Difficulty in Routines Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:34 AM -0700 10/3/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >Afterwards, the overwhelming concensus was that it was certainly the >best routine of the entire second round and some even thought it might >have been the best routine ever! So why wasn't Ryan ranked first going >into finals..or even second? If I remember correctly, he was ranked >towards the middle of the pack! For the record (and again, all the details are on the website), Ryan came in 2nd in his pool after the second round, having been beaten by Scott Davidson who also hit one of the best routines of his life. We have to remember that everyone hit well that round. It was a truly amazing day the likes of which we may not see again for a long time. Don't tell me Scott Davidson's routine didn't also have a high level of difficulty. >The reason is Ryan didn't do a lot of the easier moves that score very >well in exchange for some super-huge moves. Here's an example: Ryan hit >flurry (for those who don't know, triple dex - basically a barrage with >another leg-over) in the middle of his routine. Let's compare the >scoring of a flurry to an around the world. There is no disagreement on this -- the current system does not necessarily *emphasize* difficulty; but it certainly takes it into account. It is (for the tenth time in this discussion) a *presentation-based* judging system. That's what the players agree to when they compete at Worlds. I would *love* to see a purely (or mostly) technical competition emerge as a separate event. And if that event ends up being well-attended while the presentation event falls flat, that's FINE. I believe in evolution. But let's never lose sight of why we're where we are, and let's avoid trying to retrofit new ideas into old systems. (I recommend rereading this paragraph.) Ryan failed to hit his routine in the final round and he didn't win. Pete hit his routine better than anyone else (which is definitely debatable, but let's stick to this part of the subject for now), whether it was easy or not, and won. In the *current*, "presentation-based" system: The winner is determined, usually, to be the one who "best performs the best routine", where "best performs" = "has best presentation (use of surface and space, movement with the music, etc.) and execution (drops)" and "best routine" = "with the highest difficulty and most variety" All of these factors weigh essentially equally in the current system. >For an around the world, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .02 >for the adds = .22. >For a flurry, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .04 for the adds >= .24 >Only .02 difference when your total score can be up to 30.0! These numbers are not exactly right (but close), and are certainly misleading. First of all, the "dex card" and "delay card"s are part of "composition" which is the other word for "variety of tricks in the routine" which is part of the "best routine" determination. They may add directly into the final score, but they're part of determining VARIETY, not difficulty. If you want to argue that difficulty should have more weight, you could probably skip this part of your argument. Secondly, you get points for "adds" *and* "add/contact" ratio. Not just "adds". I don't have the formula in front of me, but surely that will ultimately make more of a difference in the results than a measely 0.02; but even if it didn't at least they *did* score higher. It's hyperbole to say that a harder trick is only .02 difference when the total score can be 30.0 when we all know good and well that difficulty is a priori only one part of the score. >If more reward was given for bigger moves, you will see bigger moves. We are not necessarily looking for bigger moves in and of themselves. We are looking for better routines. If we're going to have a "choreographed freestyle competition event", we have to make it fun to watch. The player who can do the hardest tricks *and* be fun to watch wins. And now I'd like to introduce you to: Pete Irish. (And Eric Wulff, and Scott Davidson, and Rick Reese, and Greg Nelson, and Ryan Mulroney, and on and on...) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:38:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02699 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:37:56 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2670) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02668 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:37:14 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30346; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:30:13 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971003181141396.AAA161@LOCALNAME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:31:07 -0700 To: Becca English-Ross From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle finals Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:11 AM -0700 10/3/97, Becca English-Ross wrote: >I agree that it is much more difficult to freestyle outside and conditions >are harder to control. So, Steve will you ever move freestyle at Western >Regionals indoors? I'd love to. Obviously, I only made my pledge for Worlds since Worlds actually has a budget (of time and money). Western Regionals, like most other "local" tournaments (although it's pretty big) operates on a shoestring budget and in a smaller space of time than the World Championships. Moving in and out of a gym in the middle of the event is usually a lose for a small event; in terms of time, money, and keeping the crowds focussed. I think it's always better to have freestyle indoors, but I know that few events can afford to do it. (I like the Heart of Footbag concept because it's a freestyle-only tournament so the whole event can be set up and run in a gym; but most tournaments like to be outdoors because of the net and because of the better visibility (on a good day).) I do make an effort, which I'd like to see more tournament directors do, to have the freestyle be on a suitable surface (in our case, we use a volleyball court that is pretty good for freestyle) and in a central location relative to the rest of the event (again, we picked our site because it has the volleyball court right there, next to the main booth and only a few yards from the finals net court). However, I feel strongly that the World Championships, which are the showcase event for the sport and the most likely to attract big media and the top players, should no sooner make freestylers compete outdoors than make net players compete on sand courts. Oh, wait, Portland is famous for both. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:46:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02793 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:45:59 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2765) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02763 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:45:19 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F9.hotmail.com [207.82.250.20]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA30551 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:38:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 13243 invoked by uid 0); 3 Oct 1997 19:38:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19971003193826.13242.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:38:26 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] IFAB. live music, ramifications... Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:38:26 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Dan, Ryan- would the lack of view for the musician solve your problems with live music in competition? Are there other problems? l8r- vince Telling a musician to face a wall when he plays, as wierd as it sounds, would be an adequate solution. Eliminating or modifying Music and Movement could also work. DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:56:54 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02905 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:56:36 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2877) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02875 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:55:57 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30805 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:49:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:50:11 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Purely Technical Judging Format proposal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Here's a copy of last year's submission to this list by Scott Davidson . It is a tiny bit out of date, since people did submit comments, but I thought it would serve as a good point of reference for this discussion of technical vs. presentation freestyle judging: Steve ------ Original From: Scott Davidson Original Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:55:12 -0500 Original To: freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Here is a new Idea... please read it and give me a critique! FIVE POINT SHRED EVENT Objective: To obtain the most points. Highest score wins. Why do we need a new event? Freestyle players are being pulled in two directions. On one hand, the "Worlds Style" judging system asks players to mix elements of dance, choreography, variety and execution, while simultaneously penalizing them for drops (and IFAB is considering stronger drop penalties, so heavy that one drop would predetermine that that player could not win the event). On the other hand, the shredders and BAP are pushing the edge of difficulty and forcing the level of play towards such a difficult level that inserting these moves into strings in the "Worlds Style" system is counterproductive. When the top level players get together, they NEVER practice strings that would satisfy the "Worlds Style" scoring, they show off new combos and strings. Big tricks, back to back. Many of the best freestylers in the world choose not to compete because of the current judging system. The Comprimise: The Five Point Shred event allows players a structured opportunity to compete, while not removing them from their element. The event focuses on difficulty, execution and variety, scoring players in the same style as Olympic Diving. Rewarding players for difficulty and focusing on the style of play that the best players enjoy. Description: * Each player will perform 3 different strings of 5 contacts each. * Tricks are submitted in advance, and must be performed in order. * If a drop occurs during a string, it is the end of that attempt. * Players must be kicking the footbag prior to the start of their string attempt. * The first add contact must be the the first trick in the players selected string. * To cleanly end a string, a player must show control immediately following the fifth add contact by kicking the footbag at least twice. * Judges will score everything up until the drop. * The player can choose to make another attempt, but the second attempt becomes the final score. Player CANNOT choose the better score if a drop also shortens the second attempt. * Adjusted Adds (i.e. Barfly = 4.3) are determined for each trick. * A canonical list will be created of tricks and their Adjusted Add Value. This will be attained through discussion of top players then published on paper and on the internet. * An add/contact ratio is calculated by dividing the total adds by the number of tricks (5). Judging (similar to diving system) * Six judges. * Each trick is allowed 1 point. 5 points possible from each judge. * A drop is the end of the string. Judges will score up until the drop. * Judges must come up with their own scores without discussion. * Criteria for judging (iron this out through discussion, here are examples suggested so far): * Mandatory deductions: - Poor set, -.1 - Slop (upper body contact), -.5 - Motions that do not meet their catagorical criteria. Non-circling dexterities, "the's", -.25 Delay foul, kick more than delay, -.25 - General control, range -.1 to -.3 - Balance, range -.1 to -.3 - ????? * ??? Possible Additional value for doing 4 add moves on both sides.? Like .2 mandatory additional value for equal use? Do we want to promote equal use? This would be a good way. * Drop the high and low scores. Example string for judging: L Butterfly - R Ripwalk - L Barfly - R Paradox Whirl - L Paradox Whirl Add computation: 3 + 4 + 4.3 + 4.3 + 4.3 = 19.9 Add/Contact Ratio: 19.9 / 5 = 3.98 For example's sake, lets say the above string was performed flawlessly, except for 1 poor set from the Barfly: Judge 1 = 4.9 (correct score) Judge 2 = 5.0 (this judge missed the poor set deduction) Judge 3 = 4.7 (bad score for reasons unknown) Judge 4 = 4.9 Judge 5 = 5.0 Judge 6 = 4.9 Throw away the high (5.0) and the low (4.7) and here is the result: 4.9 + 4.9 + 5.0 + 4.9 = 19.7 Soften the score by multiplying it by .75 (I would like to know the reasoning behind this in diving, I believe it is to reduce the point spreads by 25% so that players leads don't look insurmountable): 19.7 * .75 = 14.775 Round that up to the hundredth: 14.78 Multiply that by the add/contact ratio: 14.78 x 3.98 = 58.8244 Round that up to the hundredth: 58.82 Raw score of 58.82 for that string. Players and judges do three strings per round, the scores are entered into a computer program developed in Filemaker Pro v.1.2 for Mac by Enlightener. Computer will do all calculations. After three strings, the per-round score is added up, lets say this player scored the same on each string in this round (very unlikely), 58.82 x 3 = 176.46, that would be a very good score. Two rounds of this (one per day in a 2 day tourney) would be plenty for a good event. The second round, players cannot use any of the same strings from first round. We need to discuss if we will be doing cumulative score for second round, that could make it interesting! _________=====-=---0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0- Okay, what do you think? This is a text file on my mac, so I can edit it. I did not write this in my email program so there might be some funny characters in there. I envision this as the raging shred event of the future, and Kenny likes it, so what do you think? It is totally up for discussion, everything is. So give me feedback, be harsh if you need be. See ya@ Scott Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 20:32:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03246 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:32:55 GMT From: swingert@creighton.edu Received: from swingert@creighton.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3079) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03077 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:13:05 GMT Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.15]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA31372 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:06:13 -0700 Received: from bluejay.creighton.edu by mailjay.creighton.edu with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA247149172; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:06:12 -0500 Received: from localhost by bluejay.creighton.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA159149171; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:06:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:06:11 -0500 (CDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Tapping Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Has anyone ever hit: Tapping double down? Pixie Paradon? Pixie Butterswirl? Pixie Blender? Pixie Osis? How about fairy in any of those combos? Any secrets? Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 20:42:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03506 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:42:00 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3457) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03455 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:37:00 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA32103 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:30:07 -0700 Received: from crater.cs.uidaho.edu (hill9361@crater.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.110]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.1) with ESMTP id PAA12856; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by crater.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id NAA22140; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: crater.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Hillebrand To: samuelj@HUTCHCC.EDU cc: FREESTYLE@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] COMPETITION In-Reply-To: <009BB359.82BCDA33.19@hutchcc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At my first tournament (worlds '97), I was hitting mostly 3s, 4s, and one 5, but it didn't matter since I had no experience performing...I still bit the big one. I guess if I want to do better in the future at competitions, I will have to practice going solo in front of an audience. Not that I will easily find a similar audience (made up of BAPers/idols who are keeping score with a pencil). On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 samuelj@HUTCHCC.EDU wrote: > I would just like to ask all you kickers what level of play were you at when you went to your first tournament. Were you already doing 3 and 4 add moves? And > what level should I be at before I go to my first tournament? > Jeremy Samuel > SAMUELJ@HUTCHCC.EDU > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 20:53:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03555 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03551 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:23 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3548) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03546 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:22 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA32467 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:46:30 -0700 Received: from skull.cs.uidaho.edu (hill9361@skull.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.108]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.1) with ESMTP id PAA13351 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by skull.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id NAA22996 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: skull.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Hillebrand To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] IFAB. live music, ramifications... In-Reply-To: <19971003193826.13242.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Telling a musician to face a wall when he plays, as wierd as it sounds, > would be an adequate solution. Eliminating or modifying Music and > Movement could also work. > > DK But would anyone be encouraged to use live music if the musicians couldn't watch the player? The player might also have to worry about the musician(s) goofing up, replacing the advantage of live music with a big disadvantage. Maybe it is a good idea, and that will keep people from doing it very often? ______________________________________________________________________ Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 00:51:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05723 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:51:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05719 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:51:37 GMT Received: from scalf@utdallas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5716) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05714 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:51:36 GMT Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02422 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:44:46 -0700 Received: from apache.utdallas.edu (scalf@apache.utdallas.edu [129.110.16.9]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09052 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:44:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (scalf@localhost) by apache.utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19787 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:44:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: apache.utdallas.edu: scalf owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:44:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Derric Scalf To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re... COMPETITION Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org It is never too early to compete. My first competition - April 97 - I could do an occasional butterfly into paradox mirage. A few twos, etc. Nothing that great. But I got up there and had a great time. The hardest part about competing is standing in front of everyone. I always get nervous, but the only way I can think to get over that is to compete more often. I have never heard anyone make fun of a player for competing. If you go up and give it your best, who cares what you hit. Everyone will just see how much better you have gotten the next time they see you compete. That is my opinion. Later. -D From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 03:44:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06790 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 03:44:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06786 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 03:44:26 GMT Received: from iguana04@sprynet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6783) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA06781 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 03:44:25 GMT Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.1.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA04628 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:37:37 -0700 Received: from newmicronpc (dd80-023.compuserve.com [199.174.169.23]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA04402 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:37:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199710040337.UAA04402@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Elizabeth Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Re: Level of Skill to Compete Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:51:17 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org | I would just like to ask all you kickers what level of play were you at when you went to |your first tournament. |Were you already doing 3 and 4 add moves? And | what level should I be at before I go to my first tournament? | Jeremy Samuel | SAMUELJ@HUTCHCC.EDU Hi, I don't have a ton of experience as far as freestyle competition is concerned, however, I was able to compete at novice net at a time when I could only toe stall. This gave me the courage to compete at an unintimidating level and build courage to compete in other competitions. ...compete enough times and before you know it, you're competing intermediate and advanced. I think that you should just go for it if your interested in competing; the level of your playing will improve with the experience. More incentive to skool harder than you already do when you kick with all of the incredible kickers. Anyway, I'll refrain from saying more because I haven't competed for over a year or two, but wanted to put in a woman's opinion for competing at freestyle at a non-advanced level. When I finally had the nerve to do a single routine, they didn't have any woman's intermediate or novice(do they have novice freestyle at tourney's yet?) so I had to compete in men's intermediate. As you can imagine...I was definitely lacking some of the comparable moves. I think at most I pulled a few 3 add moves...mostly one and two, dropped a million times because i had never choreographed anything. Sort of a shotgun routine. Now, realizing that there isn't really enough competition for woman's freestyle, I'll probably just continue to compete woman's advanced rather than compete Men's intermediate again. I think, as you can tell by these ongoing debates over preformance vs. technical difficulty being the virtue of any routine, you could kick ass just by hitting a lower add routine with fewer drops (in most cases). so, if you can just pull a few move