From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 02:13:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06091 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:12:43 GMT Received: from adrabek@eagle.cc.ukans.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3558) Received: from eagle.cc.ukans.edu (adrabek@eagle.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.3]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA03555 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:06:54 GMT Received: from localhost by eagle.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA18720; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:06:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:06:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Andrew Drabek To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Freestyle judging In-Reply-To: <199709292350.XAA04479@eniac.yak.net.taz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Whats up freestylers! After a long shred session I started thinking about how freestyle is being judged and I think that there are some things that could be better and other things could be done to eliminate a lot of the conflicts. I plan on throwing a "freestyle only" tournament that separates the objective judging and the subjective judging. One will only be judged on the presentation and the aesthetic qualities of the routine; who ever puts on the best show wins. The second will be purely objective; who ever hits the longest guiltless string wins. The two scores will be avereged for an overall freestyle score. I don't care if this system doesn't conform to the "actual rules" I just want to see how it works or if freestylers like it better or worse. What do you guys think? Would this be a tournament that you would go to or would you shy away because of the judging system? Andrew Drabek Kansas University Ellsworth 3E From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 07:52:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA08466 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:52:37 GMT Received: from cfa@footbagcanada.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8418) Received: from srv1.reelwest.bc.ca (srv1.reelwest.bc.ca [207.194.197.238]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA08416 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:51:03 GMT From: Chard Cook Received: from chard (unverified [207.194.197.163]) by srv1.reelwest.bc.ca (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:50:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:50:56 -0700 Message-ID: X-Sender: cfa@intouch.bc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Keep it clean Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I read them all. I feel compelled to comment for the first time. Any who question Steve's whining should ask themselves: Am I ever in my lifetime,going to do as much for this sport as this man already has? I think not. I read profanity today on this digest for the first time. Made me not want to read it anymore. We are all working towards the same goal here! We need to keep in mind that we are being watched by future developers and potential sponsors. Keep it clean, don't say anything here that you wouldn't say to someones face. Scott Always kickin' Chard Cook Canadian Footbag Alliance, Inc. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 17:54:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01594 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:52:28 GMT Received: from footbag13@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (308) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00306 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:06:54 GMT From: Footbag13@aol.com Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23705 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:06:54 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA21638 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971001110309_354440366@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re:[freestyle] Freestyle judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 97-09-30 22:26:25 EDT, Andrew Drabek wrote: << One will only be judged on the presentation and the aesthetic qualities of the routine; who ever puts on the best show wins. The second will be purely objective; who ever hits the longest guiltless string wins. >> <> Iím not sure if I would like Andrewís proposed style of judging but then again I do support experiments in changing the way we judge. As competitive footbaggers, we can only learn from these kind of experiments right? I do see one major flaw thoughÖone half of the judging score is to be influenced by guilt-free strings? What about the beginners who might not even be able to do any 3 add moves, let alone 3 add strings. You didnít mention anything about having different level of play brackets either! Keeping in mind your basic structure for judging, hereís my suggestionÖ Beginners: One half of score is based upon longest dropless string (players who try to score high here with a string of 130 or so toe stalls in a row will score lowest on the other half of the scoring card - presentation) Intermediates: One half of score is based upon longest tilt-free string (no one add moves) Open: One half of score is based upon longest guilt-free string The thing I like most about this system is that there are some standards set here that will help guide players into the best bracket. One thing about competition (especially smaller tourneys) is that there are a lot of players not registering to kick at the level they should be at. There are often intermediates who hang back in the beginner bracketÖto ensure a win or because of nerves. There are also a few beginners and intermediates who try to move too fastÖtrying to pull of 3 and 4 add strings when they still have trouble with 1 and 2 add strings. Oh well, just a suggestionÖ Jason p.s. <> I would go to any tournament you hosted! A different judging style would only be more of a challenge..especially for those uf us who are set in our ways of looking at competition! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 18:31:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02165 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:31:47 GMT Received: from shahrayar@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2100) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02098 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:27:10 GMT From: SHAHRAYAR@aol.com Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27032 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:27:12 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA17913 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971001142534_157745382@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 97-10-01 14:14:37 EDT, you write: << Open: One half of score is based upon longest guilt-free string >> I'd have to disagree with this...the longest string doesn't mean a whole lot as we have found in the 45 second shred, where rules had to be devoloped to eliminate the cheap 10 infinities in a row type strings. Yeah, it was a long string, but who cares? It is the content of the string, not the length that would prompt me to give a higher score in judging. Quality, not quantity... Jim From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 19:00:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02528 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:00:45 GMT Received: from klein@proscape.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2401) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02399 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:50:45 GMT Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27489 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:50:46 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCCE79.0053FC40@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:47:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] musical accompaniment Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:47:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 7 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello all, I know that this thread has been beaten dead like a flattened highway roadkill, but it's something I have pondered for a while. I love to beat box (vocal jam) and often do it to the rhythm of my freestylin. Would this be totally out of the question in freestyle competition? I am not introducing this for the sake of argument, I REALLY enjoy and DO this. -Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 19:46:36 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02965 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:46:30 GMT Received: from footbag13@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2917) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02915 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:43:11 GMT From: Footbag13@aol.com Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28317 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:43:13 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA27310 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971001154115_1031366392@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] a footbag paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I've been watching a lot of arguing lately about rules and official decisions. I completely support these arguments as a tool to make sure that everyone (IFAB included) can see all sides of any and all arguments. But some arguments I have seen, seem to be moving away from what I believe footbag is all about. How many of us said to ourselves when we first tried footbag "I'm going to compete...and I'm going to win"? I, myself, like many/most people I know, started kicking just because it was fun...because it was what my friends did for fun...it was just something to do. Yes, I compete and yes, I support competitions and the idea that we should have a set of fair, universal and update-able rules and standards for judging. I would love to see footbag gain the respect and recognition that other sports have. But, we have to keep in mind that not only are we athletes and competitors...we are so much more. ...examples... How many professional sports teams are there that go out for a beer and dinner with the opposing team after winning/losing to them? What sport will let a 12 year old beginner practice with a bunch of 20-30 something year old pros? How many foreign gymnasts do you think crashed for the night in the homes of Atlanta gymnasts during the summer Olympics? What other athlete can be sponsored by Adidas, compete at an international level, being broadcast on ESPN2 and sneak around the corner for joint or a cigarette or coffee or a beer? Yes, we want big sponsorships; yes, we want comfortable training facilities; yes, we want people to know the word 'footbag'...we want all of these things, but do we really want to become what other sports are? ...examples... Do we want to lose the family feeling at tournaments and in circles? Do we want to end up doing underwear comercials? Do we want to be subject to the distrust and suspicion of mandatory drug testing? I just want to remind everyone of the bond that footbaggers everywhere share...no matter what age, sex, religion, ethnicity, appearance or style. We all kick. This posting isn't a response to any one posting nor is it any kind of attack on any one person. It is simply a statement of my feelings about footbag...and maybe a suggestion for everyone to remember your first footbag, your first stall and the first time you saw someone kicking at a level that you thought you never could attain. I welcome any comments/arguments or anyone to answer the question... "What is footbag?" (as asked by a footbagger) Jason Phillips Ground Phlor Digs From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 20:25:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03418 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:25:47 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3380) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03378 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:23:08 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28925; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:23:08 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <971001154115_1031366392@emout13.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:24:05 -0700 To: Footbag13@aol.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] a footbag paradox Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:43 PM -0700 10/1/97, Footbag13@aol.com wrote: >Yes, I compete and yes, I support competitions and the idea that we should >have a set of fair, universal and update-able rules and standards for >judging. I would love to see footbag gain the respect and recognition that >other sports have. But, we have to keep in mind that not only are we >athletes and competitors...we are so much more. Here, here! >This posting isn't a response to any one posting nor is it any kind of attack >on any one person. It is simply a statement of my feelings about >footbag...and maybe a suggestion for everyone to remember your first footbag, >your first stall and the first time you saw someone kicking at a level that >you thought you never could attain. Few of us who've been here a long time have forgotten that, Jason. But thanks for trying to bring the rest of the (newer) members of our community a little closer to home. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 20:25:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03429 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:25:49 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1834) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01832 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:59:59 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F102.hotmail.com [207.82.250.221]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26533 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:59:58 -0700 Received: (qmail 27484 invoked by uid 0); 1 Oct 1997 17:59:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19971001175958.27483.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 10:59:57 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] final 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 10:59:57 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Here are a few things I want to express as this topic is losing steam: 1. As bold as Ryan's statements were, at least he was honest. I'm sure that many other pros felt similarly, but Ryan was the only one with the balls to actually speak out. If I was in his lavers, training like a dog for worlds, to lose to someone who MAY have had an advantage by using live music - I would have been super-pissed. Losing to another kicker is one thing, losing to a musician is another. The players take competition seriously so we have to take judging seriously. Personally, I think Pete's intentions were true in nature and his victory should be respected. However, I'd rather not see it again. 2. Final Argument: The most powerful tool a judge has is the ability to compare. We don't have an absolute scale so we have to compare one's performance to another's to come up with accurate scoring. In bowling, it's how many pins you knock down. In baseball, it's how many runs you score. But presentation judges in footbag along with other performance driven sports don't have such luxuries. With this stated, how can you possibly compare a routine using live, perhaps improvised music to a routine using recorded music. The scoring category is called MUSIC and MOVEMENT - how a player reacts to the rhythym of the music. Using recorded music, it's easy to judge - the player reacts to the music, the music can't possibly react to the player. Using live music, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the judge to know one way or the other unless the judge had already heard the selection prior to competition and knew it thoroughly! End result: inability for comparison! Technically, we're talking about two different sports. If I was judging presentation for a player using live music, I would be forced to give that player 0 points for music & movement unless I was familiar with the music being performed. It has been mentioned that ridding the sport of live music would be Draconian. As far as I know we'd only be affecting one player - Peter, if he was even considering doing this again. One player...MAYBE (How Draconian is that?) Let it be gone. Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 20:40:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03552 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:40:36 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3493) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03491 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:35:53 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29154; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:35:55 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971001175958.27483.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:36:50 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:59 AM -0700 10/1/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >I'm sure >that many other pros felt similarly, but Ryan was the only one with the >balls to actually speak out. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this. I am almost positive that most of the other players who competed in the final round at Worlds were not at all annoyed by the Diggery Doo. >If I was in his lavers, training like a dog >for worlds, to lose to someone who MAY have had an advantage by using >live music - I would have been super-pissed. Then you would have been competing for all the wrong reasons. >Personally, I think >Pete's intentions were true in nature and his victory should be >respected. However, I'd rather not see it again. I'd *love* to see it again. So there's where we differ. I think it was a serious moment in footbag history -- and a good one, at that. >With this stated, how can you possibly compare a routine using live, >perhaps improvised music to a routine using recorded music. The scoring >category is called MUSIC and MOVEMENT - how a player reacts to the >rhythym of the music. Using recorded music, it's easy to judge - the >player reacts to the music, the music can't possibly react to the >player. Using live music, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the judge to know one way >or the other unless the judge had already heard the selection prior to >competition and knew it thoroughly! End result: inability for >comparison! Technically, we're talking about two different sports. That's a reasonable interpretation. However, I disagree that it's "IMPOSSIBLE" for a judge to judge this. I think it may be more difficult to judge, but nobody said judging should be trivial. Especially qualitative judging. >If I was judging presentation for a player using live music, I would be >forced to give that player 0 points for music & movement unless I was >familiar with the music being performed. That doesn't make much sense. >It has been mentioned that ridding the sport of live music would be >Draconian. As far as I know we'd only be affecting one player - Peter, >if he was even considering doing this again. One player...MAYBE (How >Draconian is that?) Let it be gone. Peter is not the only player to ever compete in the past to live music. And he won't be the last, as long as I'm an active member of the IFAB. :-) Look at the freestyle flying disc rules and get back to me. They are about ten years ahead of us. The parallels are uncanny. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 21:24:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA04195 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:24:09 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4088) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04086; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:14:55 GMT Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29844; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:14:53 -0700 Received: from station33.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-233.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.233]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09851; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971001141002.0068e888@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:10:02 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] NEW FOOTGAE AT LAST!!!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yes! For all you hardcore freestylers, THE TIME HAS COME!!! A new shred tape has just been finished by the Vu Bros. No this is not RAW SHRED 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7! This is an edited shred tape featuring The best tricks and combos from western regionals 97 and worlds 97. This is a service to YOU, the dedicated freestyler so no griping! The tape is not elaborate as a "RAW SHRED" quality tape but features *THIS* year's phattest stuff! The tape is over an hour long and does feature the sacred automotive jam that may be Kenny Shults Final JAM! The price is $15 US. So anyone intrested in getting this tape please feel free to e-mail me at: tuhuge@sfsu.edu or send a check or money order to: Freestyle Tape 4533 California Street San Francisco, CA 94118 Thanks to all! 2 huge P.S For you routine heads and NET fellows, A routine tape and Net finals tape are in the works! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:18:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04664 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:18:43 GMT Received: from casey@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4375) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04373 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:40:57 GMT Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA30264 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:41:00 -0700 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06183 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:40:41 -0500 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199710012140.QAA06183@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: [freestyle] that damned music To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:40:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just wanted to point out that the instrument is spelled "digeridoo." It was bothering me, so I looked it up. That is all. Whee. -- Casey Zacek Senior Systems Administrator * Programmer NETCOM Interactive From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:18:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04673 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:18:46 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4458) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04456 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:58:24 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F32.hotmail.com [207.82.250.43]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA30558 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:58:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 29695 invoked by uid 0); 1 Oct 1997 21:58:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19971001215859.29694.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:58:58 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:58:58 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I love it when my words are ripped apart and criticized. That was SUPPOSED to be my final word, but this will instead. Here it is: 1. Peter is awesome. He is the world champ. He is the best player in the world. He is very creative. 2. I believe that live music can be unfair in competition. 3. Competition isn't everything in footbag, in fact it's only a teenie, weenie part of it. However, if were going to have competition, and we want the sport to be popular, we need to keep it fair. 4. I believe in fair competition. That's all, nothing else. That's what I should've written when I started. Let's all take a chill pill, listen to each other's opinion and move on with our lives. (Steve). Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:22:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04714 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:22:47 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for footbag@majordomo.footbag.org (4632) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04630 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:17:35 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30849 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:17:37 -0700 Received: from coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08875; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:17:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.5) id RAA11458; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:17:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:17:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Footbag13@aol.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a footbag paradox In-Reply-To: <971001154115_1031366392@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Right on, Jason! I've had a lot of the same thoughts about footbag. As much as we focus on growing the sport, I hope we don't start to get "too big", ya know. I'd hate to see footbag changed into "not footbag" just to make it more popular. The appeal lies in the fact that it's not like a lot of other sports. Mother of Grace b.5-15-95 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:44:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04916 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:44:20 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4725) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04723 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:24:18 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA31007 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:24:22 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971001215859.29694.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:25:18 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:58 PM -0700 10/1/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >I love it when my words are ripped apart and criticized. That was >SUPPOSED to be my final word, but this will instead. Here it is: Told you not to post it. :-) >That's what I should've written when I started. Let's all take a chill >pill, listen to each other's opinion and move on with our lives. >(Steve). Hah hah! But my life *is* footbag (and annoying you). Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 1 22:44:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04934 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:44:28 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4762) Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04760 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:27:15 GMT Received: from coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10004; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:27:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.5) id RAA12578; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:27:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:27:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 To: Andrew Drabek cc: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Andrew Drabek wrote: > The second will be purely objective; who ever hits > the longest guiltless string wins. Should I muddy the waters by pointing out that choosing guiltlessness as a criteria is a subjective call? If it was me designing a judging system, I would put more emphasis on equal use of both sides of the body. Maybe matched pairs or combos or something .But that's just my own subjective opinion. I'm not saying you shouldn't try your judging system, just once again pointing out that freestyle judging, like journalism, can't be objective. Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 00:53:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05858 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:52:54 GMT Received: from proshred@ix.netcom.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5824) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05822 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:49:26 GMT Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00445 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:49:31 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA17967 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:49:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mod-ca5-24.ix.netcom.com(207.92.167.88) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016847; Wed Oct 1 19:44:52 1997 Message-ID: <3432EE60.6877@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:44:16 -0700 From: Mike Niday Reply-To: proshred@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] final 2 cents References: <19971001175958.27483.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> Here are a few things I want to express as this topic is losing >> steam: ( blah blah blah ) There is only *one* thing I want to express as this topic is losing steam: T H A N K G O O D N E S S ! ! ! ! ! Mighty Smile people - just teasing - go SHRED !! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 02:06:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06416 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:05:53 GMT Received: from regul8tr@uclink4.berkeley.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6203) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.12]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06179 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:41:20 GMT Received: from hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU (hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.101.78]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA27506 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU with Microsoft Mail id <01BCCE99.25FA2580@hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:38:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCCE99.25FA2580@hil-101-78.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU> From: Ryan Mulroney To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Hey Dan: AMEN!!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:37:51 -0700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Fellas, I would just like to thank Dan for his support....He is so special. Basically, I took a whole bunch of crap for being honest and it was nice to here that Dan felt similarly. That's about it, YOU DA MAN DAN!!! L8r, Regul8r From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 02:26:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06588 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:26:37 GMT Received: from j1876@tir.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6455) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA06453 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:09:33 GMT Received: from sun.tir.com (sun.tir.com [205.138.41.6]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01528 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:09:36 -0700 Received: from default (an169.tir.com [205.218.86.107]) by sun.tir.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12108 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> From: "Jay Moldenhauer" To: Subject: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:54:27 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of discussion. Jayman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 05:30:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id FAA07705 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:29:49 GMT Received: from eric@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7524) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA07522 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:04:41 GMT Received: from stick.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03289 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:04:47 -0700 Received: from localhost (eric@localhost) by stick.netcomi.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04227 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:04:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: stick.netcomi.com: eric owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:04:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change In-Reply-To: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Jay Moldenhauer wrote: > Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of > discussion. > Jayman well, i for one, feel really stupid for not thinking of this already. i think it's a great idea. eric dallas footbag club p.s. REMINDER to anyone who is anywhere close...the texas state championships are not this weekend, but the NEXT...the weekend of the 11th. if you can, SHOW UP! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 18:03:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01893 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:01:02 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10197) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA10195 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:01:46 GMT Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.137]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07397 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:01:56 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04883 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10351 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710021401.KAA10351@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] live music Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org in my previous letter, somehow much of what i intended to say didn't make it to the listserve. must of been a hiccup in the transalation from my editor. in any case, one idea that i felt a need to express was thatif the live music is what peop is what people think is great, and the element of team presentation iss what people hate, then why not stipulate that the musician not be able to see the performer during routine? also, has anyone actually tried to examine the cards to find out if pete was judged unfairly? did he score unusually higher in any of the music related fields? keeping in mind thathe always does anyway, it may be worthwhile to compare his scores this year with his scores in past years. These were points that Ryan developed, and we should explore them, if we are interested in resolving the issue. instead of endlessly comparing our opinions. l8r- procrastin8r From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 18:32:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02219 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:32:26 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2173) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02171 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:28:59 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11094; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:27:49 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710021401.KAA10351@rac2.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:28:39 -0700 To: Procrastinator the VIIIth From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 7:01 AM -0700 10/2/97, Procrastinator the VIIIth wrote: >in my previous letter, somehow much of what i intended to say didn't make it >to the listserve. must of been a hiccup in the transalation from my >editor. Maybe it was karma paying you back for all those places you should've used your backspace key. :-) >in any case, one idea that i felt a need to express was thatif the live >music is what peop >is what people think is great, and the element of team presentation >iss what people hate, then why not stipulate that the musician not >be able to see the performer during routine? We debated and discussed this at the IFAB meeting; it was generally agreed that this was a silly stipulation; the presentation judges are perfectly capable of making the appropriate judgment call. >also, has anyone actually tried to examine the cards to find out if >pete was judged unfairly? >did he score unusually higher in any of the music related fields? >keeping in mind thathe always does anyway, it may be worthwhile >to compare his scores this year with his scores in past years. The results have been on-line for a while now. Anyone can go look at them. But for the sake of this discussion, here are the details from the judging cards for the relevant (final) round: comp pres drops adds ctcts ratio total Kremer Steve 7.80 5.70 3 182 74 2.46 22.03 Nelson Greg 8.30 6.20 7 251 99 2.54 22.80 Gehrman Ahren 7.20 6.43 5 200 73 2.74 22.12 Mulroney Ryan 7.80 7.20 5 212 89 2.38 23.25 Irish Peter 7.90 8.70 0 225 89 2.53 26.38 Wulff Eric 8.60 8.10 4 210 85 2.47 25.27 Reese Rick 8.50 7.70 4 182 67 2.72 24.74 Davidson Scott 9.40 7.57 3 214 80 2.67 26.03 Composition delays dexterity x-body body unusual comp Kremer Steve 2.60 1.90 1.20 1.50 0.60 7.80 Nelson Greg 2.40 2.00 1.90 1.60 0.40 8.30 Gehrman Ahren 2.30 2.00 1.70 0.90 0.30 7.20 Mulroney Ryan 2.70 2.00 1.70 1.00 0.40 7.80 Irish Peter 2.50 2.00 1.40 1.50 0.50 7.90 Wulff Eric 2.50 2.00 1.90 2.00 0.20 8.60 Reese Rick 2.60 2.00 1.60 1.60 0.70 8.50 Davidson Scott 3.00 2.00 2.00 1.60 0.80 9.40 Presentation judge1 judge2 judge3 judge4 Kremer Steve 6.40 5.20 5.50 5.70 Nelson Greg 6.50 5.80 6.30 6.20 Gehrman Ahren 6.90 6.20 6.20 6.43 Mulroney Ryan 7.20 7.50 6.90 7.20 Irish Peter 8.70 8.70 8.70 8.70 Wulff Eric 8.30 8.10 7.90 8.10 Reese Rick 8.50 7.50 7.10 7.70 Davidson Scott 8.20 7.40 7.10 7.57 I think the numbers make it clear: Pete was the only dropless player, so obviously his routine will score higher on presentation as a result, as well as in the mathematical computation. I mean, he had *3* less drops than the next best player. That means a great deal in the open singles freestyle event. So sure, he may have gotten some presentation benefit (as I think he should have) for cavalier use of a live digeridoo, but it wasn't so much as to be "unfair". Unfair is that the other players had bad lighting conditions and a slight breeze since this year's freestyle finals, for the first time in my memory, weren't held indoors. If you want unfair, *that* was unfair. Perhaps the lighting and the outdoors conditions could be a more relevant contributing factor to Ryan, among others, having far too many drops. If Ryan had *hit* his routine we could actually compare the two. But how do you compare a 5-drop finals routine to a no-drop routine? I think it's a red herring to say it was the music. I'm on a mission to ensure that the freestyle competition at Worlds is never again held outdoors. Anyone want to join me in that mission? Those halogen lights were *terribly* annoying, ruined most of the videophotography, got in the eyes of the players, and created aweful shadows. The mats were great, but the underlying surface was slightly slanted, there was an occasional breeze which can sometimes throw people way off, and worst of all, there were EXTREMELY loud fireworks reverberating and reflecting all through the plaza during the doubles event, which basically RUINED it. Live music wouldn't have made much difference if the fireworks had been going on during the singles. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 18:57:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02736 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:57:56 GMT Received: from 00201887@bigred.unl.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2476) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02474 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:43:45 GMT Received: from bigred.unl.edu (bigred.unl.edu [129.93.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11411 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:43:44 -0700 Received: (from 00201887@localhost) by bigred.unl.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id NAA28530 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:43:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Theron A Troxel <00201887@bigred.unl.edu> Message-Id: <199710021843.NAA28530@bigred.unl.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:43:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, According to Steve's last post (the one with the individual scoring) I had a couple questions about it. From what I got from the info Pete might have had a dropless routine, but it was less contact add then 4 other people. What I'm trying to get at is when making a routine do you want to make it easier so there is no drop and your presentation scores increase. If so, this doesn't sound like the bap philosphy of pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other people's views on this? -- --------------------------- @ Theron Troxel \_|_/ UNLFC President | o 00201887@bigred.unl.edu /_\_ http://www.unl.edu/crec/SC/footbag \ ------------------------------------- From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 19:16:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03217 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:16:08 GMT Received: from casey@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3074) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03072 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:06:44 GMT Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12013 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:06:46 -0700 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00886 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:28 -0500 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199710021906.OAA00886@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Theron A Troxel spoke forth with the blessed manuscript: > According to Steve's last post (the one with the individual scoring) I > had a couple questions about it. From what I got from the info Pete > might have had a dropless routine, but it was less contact add then 4 > other people. What I'm trying to get at is when making a routine do > you want to make it easier so there is no drop and your presentation > scores increase. If so, this doesn't sound like the bap philosphy of > pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed > with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is > dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other > people's views on this? Basically, the judging system isn't based on bap philosophy. -- Casey Zacek Systems Administrator * Programmer NETCOM Interactive From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 19:16:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03270 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:16:48 GMT Received: from klein@proscape.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3188) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03186 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:15:49 GMT Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12194 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:15:51 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCCF45.AEDD4100@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:13:05 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Translating the Zone Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:12:49 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 23 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Often immediately after I complete a juggle, I can't quite recall the sensation and general awareness of my mental state during the juggle. In the midst of shredding, it's like part of my actions get determined by conscious thought while the other part simply flow out in a stream of unreflective habitual reaction. I am often not really thinking, I am just doing. So much mental energy gets consumed by the actual performance that little space is left for a reflective "pat on the back" or flash of one's girlfriend or some other extraneous rumination. My body just assumes this stream of actualizing energy, I feel as though I am slightly elevated from the ground, almost floating. I have heard fellow shredders say things such as, "I forgot to breath," and "I didn't even realize there was a fire alarm," after completing some deep, zone-realized shredding. People have asked me, and I have asked myself, "What does it feel like to do that?" Other than simple explanations such as; empowering, awesome, surreal, etc. I find it really difficult to articulate the mid-zone experience of shred. A heightened, ethereal, semi-conscious state of being mixed with an incredible outlay of energy and concentration is about the best one sentence attempt that I can think of right now. How do you all feel when you are WAY down in it. Not right after, but during. What goes through your heads, heads? Shred hard and long. Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 19:28:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA03433 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:28:29 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3405) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03403 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:27:58 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12406; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:27:58 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710021906.OAA00886@gravy.netcomi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:28:54 -0700 To: Casey Zacek From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] live music Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:06 PM -0700 10/2/97, Casey Zacek wrote: >Basically, the judging system isn't based on bap philosophy. Exactly. The system we use at Worlds is a "presentation-oriented" judging system. Scott Davidson proposed last year an entirely technical event that concentrates on add-contact ratios, specific strings that you tell the judges you're going to attempt, and a specific number of strings with kicks in between. If you want, I can repost Scott's message from last year. It's an interesting system, and is based on the system used in Diving. But more importantly, to address Theron's comments, the formula-based judging system used to compute the results that you saw *does* take technical difficulty into account along a couple of dimensions, and has been adjusted over the years to try to be the most reflective of who's the "best" at that given moment. Not only do you get "credit" for the total adds, but also for the "add/contact" ratio, as *well* as tick-marks on all the "comp" cards where your moves are unique. (So for instance, the dexterity part of a Torque is unique relative to the dexterity part of a Barfly.) But you can't look at just ONE part of the results to say so-and-so should have won. You have to look at the entire thing. In Mixed Doubles Freestyle, Lisa and Greg beat me and Sam because they had more *difficulty*, even though we beat them on both the Team and Presentation cards. (We had one more drop than them, too.) So the issue isn't cut and dried. But yes, drops are weighted heavily in the current system; and the rationale is that players should not attempt tricks they can't do consistently. Ryan proved in the second round that he *can* hit the tricks consistently; but he failed to do so in the final round. End of story. If he'd have hit his routine in the final round, he may very well have won, Pete playing to live music or not. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 20:00:17 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03714 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:00:10 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3542) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03540 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:41:11 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12698 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:41:12 -0700 Received: from skull.cs.uidaho.edu (hill9361@skull.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.108]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.1) with ESMTP id OAA18074 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by skull.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id MAA02170 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: skull.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Hillebrand To: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199710021906.OAA00886@gravy.netcomi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed > > with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is > > dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other > > people's views on this? I agree! I also think that it is too bad drops are so detrimental to your score....It kind of scared me my first time competing. I think I probably would have had fewer drops if I hadn't been worrying about it so much. > Basically, the judging system isn't based on bap philosophy. Well, there oughta be one that is. ______________________________________________________________________ Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 20:41:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA04223 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:41:51 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4149) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA04147 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:36:04 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13542 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:36:05 -0700 Received: from sp2n09.missouri.edu (sp2n09.missouri.edu [128.206.2.17]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA118576; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:35:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by sp2n09.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA34234; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:33:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: sp2n09.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:33:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@sp2n09.missouri.edu To: Jay Moldenhauer cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change In-Reply-To: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of > discussion. > > Jayman That is the best idea I have heard in a long, long, time. Joe Marschall From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 21:28:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA04805 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:28:09 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4746) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04744 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:27:38 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14347 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:27:41 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199710020209.WAA12108@sun.tir.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:28:29 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle 2 cents & change Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:33 PM -0700 10/2/97, Joe Marschall wrote: >> Have the live musician play with his back to the competitor. End of >> discussion. >That is the best idea I have heard in a long, long, time. This idea (of having the musician(s) facing away) was brought up at the IFAB meeting, and most everyone on the committee agreed (at the time) that it was a little bit extreme. If we're going to allow live music, then we have to rely on the presentation judges to take this into account. There were too many possibilities of problems with making the wording clearly indicate that the music couldn't follow the player, and we ended up by agreeing that the judges can always make the call. It seemed overkill to enforce a "no see" policy. It also seems like such a rule would put a chilling effect on live music, and we weren't sure that's what we wanted. It may turn out that all choreographed freestyle in the future is performed to live music; why nip that trend in the bud if it ends up being the wave of the future? We thought, too, that this type of thing happens so rarely right now, that we wanted to avoid making a hard-and-fast rule disallowing anything until we (as a community) had more experience with the matter. I agreed with the bulk of the other committee-members, and I think it's frequently better to take things slowly than to be reactionary. Yes, the fairness issue is very important, but perhaps we still haven't come up with a good compromise. I'm personally willing to reconsider the "musician faces the other way" idea, although I have several reservations. Either way, let's get one thing straight: the IFAB has ruled on this issue, and, like all other IFAB rules, the period of validity is January to December, 1998. (There was an even more controversial change in the net rules this year, but again, we will stick to it and reconsider it at the next meeting for the '99 rulebook.) I and the other IFAB members are always open to ideas and willing to discuss any rules or proposed rules; I hope nobody has taken my participation in this discussion the wrong way. IFAB is also open to bringing new members onto the committee (but remember, it's a thankless job!). Just realize that any changes in the existing rules won't go into effect until January, 1999. I urge everyone to understand and accept this. Live music will be allowed at next year's Worlds; but perhaps because of the controversy, nobody will choose to take advantage of the option. That would be fine with me. :-) By the way, the floor is open to suggestions as to whether or not the freestyle format at Worlds should even use the formula-based judging system. What do people think of the ranked-component system? I think IFAB has a long way to go to rework the freestyle rules to make things more clear-cut for the competitors. I'm prepared to try to help do that. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 2 21:49:05 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA05059 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:48:52 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4995) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04993 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:46:20 GMT Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14625 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:46:23 -0700 Received: from station10.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-210.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.210]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09690 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971002144204.0069912c@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 14:42:04 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] A CORRECTION!!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971001141002.0068e888@sfsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org A change from the last message! >send a check or money order to: > >Freestyle Tape >4533 California Street >San Francisco, CA 94118 A HUGE Correction!!!! You should make checks payable to: Tuan Vu If anyone sent us a check already that isn't addressed to him we'll send it back to you with our apologies!!! Sorry for the mishap!!!! 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:55:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02067 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:54:22 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10309) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10307 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:19 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24909 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:22:28 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.176] (d176.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.176]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA14691; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:18:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:27:53 -0700 To: Andrew Drabek , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Andrew and Everyone! >judging and the subjective judging. One will only be judged on the >presentation and the aesthetic qualities of the routine; who ever puts on >the best show wins. The second will be purely objective; who ever hits >the longest guiltless string wins. The two scores will be avereged for an >overall freestyle score. I don't care if this system doesn't conform to >the "actual rules" I just want to see how it works or if freestylers like >it better or worse. > >What do you guys think? Would this be a tournament that you would go to >or would you shy away because of the judging system? I would be there in a heartbeat. I have been a proponent of exploring different ways of judging in competition for many years. Although, I am not sure if Andrew has thought through the rules yet, but we could use such an event to test all kinds of different freestyle formats. My latest favorite is like this... No competition. Instead of a prize pool, the money would be divided evenly amongst the "invited" shredders. They would then work for their money by performing whenever necessary... to the highest professional standards. Sure, we could do a "mock" tourney to figure out who "won" for the audience... that would be fun. But this way, we could have a tourney that could feature the likes of "Tim Kelly," and "Josh Casey" and those who choose not to compete under the current system for a variety of reasons. Now to find a sponsor... See ya! Scott Davidson enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:55:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02058 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:54:21 GMT From: samuelj@HUTCHCC.EDU Received: from samuelj@hutchcc.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10017) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10015 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:52:03 GMT Received: from axp21.hutchcc.edu ([207.49.201.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA24000 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:52:11 -0700 Received: by hutchcc.edu (MX V4.2 AXP) id 19; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:50:41 CST Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:50:41 CST To: FREESTYLE@footbag.org Message-ID: <009BB359.82BCDA33.19@hutchcc.edu> Subject: [freestyle] COMPETITION Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I would just like to ask all you kickers what level of play were you at when you went to your first tournament. Were you already doing 3 and 4 add moves? And what level should I be at before I go to my first tournament? Jeremy Samuel SAMUELJ@HUTCHCC.EDU From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:55:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02078 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:54:23 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10323) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10321 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:23 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24921 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:22:32 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.176] (d176.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.176]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA14719; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:18:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:28:01 -0700 To: Ida Bettis Fogle , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Ida! >On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Andrew Drabek wrote: >> The second will be purely objective; who ever hits >> the longest guiltless string wins. Then Ida wrote: >Should I muddy the waters by pointing out that choosing guiltlessness as a >criteria is a subjective call? If it was me designing a judging system, I >would put more emphasis on equal use of both sides of the body. Maybe > matched pairs or combos or something .But that's just my own subjective >opinion. Then I'm saying: Design an event, submit it to Andrew, then go to the event and compete in it. What a great opportunity to shape freestyle to your way, Ida! Then everyone else can compete in the event you designed, that would be fun. See ya! Scott From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02119 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:30 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10318) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10314 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:22 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24916 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:22:32 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.176] (d176.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.176]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA14704; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:18:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:27:56 -0700 To: SHAHRAYAR@aol.com, freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Freestyle judging Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Everyone! ><< Open: One half of score is based upon longest guilt-free string >> > >I'd have to disagree with this...the longest string doesn't mean a whole lot >as we have found in the 45 second shred, where rules had to be devoloped to >eliminate the cheap 10 infinities in a row type strings. Yeah, it was a long >string, but who cares? It is the content of the string, not the length that >would prompt me to give a higher score in judging. Quality, not quantity... Contrair, contrair!!! The "Longest Guiltless String" contest has an "Honor" rule that prohibits players from exhibiting the lowest form of "winning at any cost" method mentioned above. It states (something along the lines of) that if players don't make an effort to have a non-repeating string, that the competitors can have a conference and disqualify the run, or if that doesn't work, then lash them with wet lasagna noodles. (Or something like that). There is no honor in winning in the style mentioned above. However there may be money in it. (which, i believe, would make it "less" honor.) It is a fun contest, and easy to judge. We have run it a bunch of times and it works wonderfully! See ya! Scott From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02140 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:34 GMT Received: from rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (415) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00413 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:47:54 GMT Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.70.137]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26911 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:40:50 -0700 Received: from rac2.wam.umd.edu (rvbpaco@rac2.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.142]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11655 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:40:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac2.wam.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22400 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710031540.LAA22400@rac2.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] IFAB. live music, ramifications... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey again all, Dan, Ryan- would the lack of view for the musician solve your problems with live music in competition? Are there other problems? I think the goal with any judging system should be to eliminate as much as possible the responsibility the judges have to be less subjective. It's human nature to be subjective, and a players wish to be judged fairly. Ideally, rules are created to allow athletes to compete at their highest skill level in order to determine who has the greatest skill. The decision to allow live music is NOT A RULE. The decision was made to allow the exploration of a new development in the sport. To see how it affects fair play. To give it a chance. To see what rules may be needed. The directors are left with the responsibility to set the rule for the players to ensure skill levels are compared accurately. And the competitors have the responsibility to find out what rules they are being governed under by the tournament directors to best represent themselves in competition. There is nothing wrong with the IFAB decision. All it ultimately does is encourage controversy to develop the sport. It is the players responsibility to ask the directors what rules they are being evaluated within their contests of skills. And it is the sanctioned tournament directors responsibility to represent the IFAB rulings in whatever fashion the players deem is most fair. Because both exist as an entity for the sport, and the players. at least i think thats the way its supposed to work... 'm sure i'll find out where i am wrong soon. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02153 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:36 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1519) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01517 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:41:15 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F59.hotmail.com [207.82.250.145]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28295 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:34:23 -0700 Received: (qmail 19886 invoked by uid 0); 3 Oct 1997 17:34:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19971003173422.19885.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:34:22 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Difficulty in Routines Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:34:22 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Theron Troxel wrote: >According to Steve's last post (the one with the individual scoring) I >had a couple questions about it. From what I got from the info Pete >might have had a dropless routine, but it was less contact add then 4 >other people. What I'm trying to get at is when making a routine do >you want to make it easier so there is no drop and your presentation >scores increase. If so, this doesn't sound like the bap philosphy of >pushing the level of footbag. I would rather see a routine packed >with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is >dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. What are some other >people's views on this? Dan Kramer writes: One of the problems with current worlds judging is that it gives very little incentive to try more difficult moves. For a prime example, let's look at Ryan's second round at worlds (ya know, the dropless super-hein routine from hell) Afterwards, the overwhelming concensus was that it was certainly the best routine of the entire second round and some even thought it might have been the best routine ever! So why wasn't Ryan ranked first going into finals..or even second? If I remember correctly, he was ranked towards the middle of the pack! The reason is Ryan didn't do a lot of the easier moves that score very well in exchange for some super-huge moves. Here's an example: Ryan hit flurry (for those who don't know, triple dex - basically a barrage with another leg-over) in the middle of his routine. Let's compare the scoring of a flurry to an around the world. For an around the world, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .02 for the adds = .22. For a flurry, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .04 for the adds = .24 Only .02 difference when your total score can be up to 30.0! If more reward was given for bigger moves, you will see bigger moves. Nuff said. Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:57:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02169 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:39 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1577) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01575 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:51:25 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F100.hotmail.com [207.82.250.219]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28447 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:44:32 -0700 Received: (qmail 26347 invoked by uid 0); 3 Oct 1997 17:44:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19971003174404.26346.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:44:04 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Translating the Zone Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:44:04 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Often immediately after I complete a juggle, I can't quite recall the >sensation and general awareness of my mental state during the juggle. In >the midst of shredding, it's like part of my actions get determined by >conscious thought while the other part simply flow out in a stream of >unreflective habitual reaction. I am often not really thinking, I am >just doing. So much mental energy gets consumed by the actual >performance that little space is left for a reflective "pat on the back" >or flash of one's girlfriend or some other extraneous rumination. My >body just assumes this stream of actualizing energy, I feel as though I >am slightly elevated from the ground, almost floating. I have heard >fellow shredders say things such as, "I forgot to breath," and "I didn't >even realize there was a fire alarm," after completing some deep, >zone-realized shredding. People have asked me, and I have asked myself, >"What does it feel like to do that?" Other than simple explanations such >as; empowering, awesome, surreal, etc. >I find it really difficult to articulate the mid-zone experience of >shred. A heightened, ethereal, semi-conscious state of being mixed with >an incredible outlay of energy and concentration is about the best one >sentence attempt that I can think of right now.How do you all feel when >you are WAY down in it. Not right after, but during. What goes through >your heads, heads? >Shred hard and long. >Ethan When I'm kicking, I think of how much higher my underwear is wedging up my ass with every move. That's when I know I'm in the zone. Obligatory :>) DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 18:59:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA02188 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:59:00 GMT From: Becca English-Ross Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1819) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01817 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:17:49 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28853 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:10:56 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.97]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAA161 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:11:42 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] freestyle finals Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:11:42 -0700 Message-ID: <19971003181141396.AAA161@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Theron wrote: >I would rather see a routine packed >with four and five add moves with four drops then a routine that is >dropless with all threes and a couple of fours. As a player this may be cool, however, if we ever want freestyle to be a performance sport appreciated by non-players it is VERY important that the routines are dropless or near perfect (this doesn't mean they can't be packed with 4 or 5 add moves) because that's what sports fans are expecting. Watch gymnastics where the commentators freak out if someone steps on the line in the floor exercise or diving where the move was performed well but there was a splash. Audiences are typically more impressed by a dropless, easier routine than a more difficult routine with drops. Steve wrote: >Unfair is that the other players had bad >lighting conditions and a slight breeze since this year's freestyle finals, >for the first time in my memory, weren't held indoors. If you want unfair, >*that* was unfair. FYI, for many years in Colorado the freestyle finals were held outside. There was one year where the wind was so bad during freestyle finals that the giant Hacky Sack balloon blew away (I wasn't there but it's a great image). So, in the middle of the final round they moved the finals to a prison (lots of prisoners for spectators). The three people who didn't have to kick in the wind outside won. I agree that it is much more difficult to freestyle outside and conditions are harder to control. So, Steve will you ever move freestyle at Western Regionals indoors? also in my opinion if Ryan had his second round routine in the finals, I think he would've won. If this had happened would we be having this discussion now? peace, becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:29:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02598 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:29:24 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2549) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02547 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:27:33 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30142; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:20:37 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971003173422.19885.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:21:26 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Difficulty in Routines Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:34 AM -0700 10/3/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >Afterwards, the overwhelming concensus was that it was certainly the >best routine of the entire second round and some even thought it might >have been the best routine ever! So why wasn't Ryan ranked first going >into finals..or even second? If I remember correctly, he was ranked >towards the middle of the pack! For the record (and again, all the details are on the website), Ryan came in 2nd in his pool after the second round, having been beaten by Scott Davidson who also hit one of the best routines of his life. We have to remember that everyone hit well that round. It was a truly amazing day the likes of which we may not see again for a long time. Don't tell me Scott Davidson's routine didn't also have a high level of difficulty. >The reason is Ryan didn't do a lot of the easier moves that score very >well in exchange for some super-huge moves. Here's an example: Ryan hit >flurry (for those who don't know, triple dex - basically a barrage with >another leg-over) in the middle of his routine. Let's compare the >scoring of a flurry to an around the world. There is no disagreement on this -- the current system does not necessarily *emphasize* difficulty; but it certainly takes it into account. It is (for the tenth time in this discussion) a *presentation-based* judging system. That's what the players agree to when they compete at Worlds. I would *love* to see a purely (or mostly) technical competition emerge as a separate event. And if that event ends up being well-attended while the presentation event falls flat, that's FINE. I believe in evolution. But let's never lose sight of why we're where we are, and let's avoid trying to retrofit new ideas into old systems. (I recommend rereading this paragraph.) Ryan failed to hit his routine in the final round and he didn't win. Pete hit his routine better than anyone else (which is definitely debatable, but let's stick to this part of the subject for now), whether it was easy or not, and won. In the *current*, "presentation-based" system: The winner is determined, usually, to be the one who "best performs the best routine", where "best performs" = "has best presentation (use of surface and space, movement with the music, etc.) and execution (drops)" and "best routine" = "with the highest difficulty and most variety" All of these factors weigh essentially equally in the current system. >For an around the world, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .02 >for the adds = .22. >For a flurry, .1 on the dex card, .1 on the delay card, .04 for the adds >= .24 >Only .02 difference when your total score can be up to 30.0! These numbers are not exactly right (but close), and are certainly misleading. First of all, the "dex card" and "delay card"s are part of "composition" which is the other word for "variety of tricks in the routine" which is part of the "best routine" determination. They may add directly into the final score, but they're part of determining VARIETY, not difficulty. If you want to argue that difficulty should have more weight, you could probably skip this part of your argument. Secondly, you get points for "adds" *and* "add/contact" ratio. Not just "adds". I don't have the formula in front of me, but surely that will ultimately make more of a difference in the results than a measely 0.02; but even if it didn't at least they *did* score higher. It's hyperbole to say that a harder trick is only .02 difference when the total score can be 30.0 when we all know good and well that difficulty is a priori only one part of the score. >If more reward was given for bigger moves, you will see bigger moves. We are not necessarily looking for bigger moves in and of themselves. We are looking for better routines. If we're going to have a "choreographed freestyle competition event", we have to make it fun to watch. The player who can do the hardest tricks *and* be fun to watch wins. And now I'd like to introduce you to: Pete Irish. (And Eric Wulff, and Scott Davidson, and Rick Reese, and Greg Nelson, and Ryan Mulroney, and on and on...) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:38:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02699 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:37:56 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2670) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02668 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:37:14 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30346; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:30:13 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971003181141396.AAA161@LOCALNAME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:31:07 -0700 To: Becca English-Ross From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle finals Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:11 AM -0700 10/3/97, Becca English-Ross wrote: >I agree that it is much more difficult to freestyle outside and conditions >are harder to control. So, Steve will you ever move freestyle at Western >Regionals indoors? I'd love to. Obviously, I only made my pledge for Worlds since Worlds actually has a budget (of time and money). Western Regionals, like most other "local" tournaments (although it's pretty big) operates on a shoestring budget and in a smaller space of time than the World Championships. Moving in and out of a gym in the middle of the event is usually a lose for a small event; in terms of time, money, and keeping the crowds focussed. I think it's always better to have freestyle indoors, but I know that few events can afford to do it. (I like the Heart of Footbag concept because it's a freestyle-only tournament so the whole event can be set up and run in a gym; but most tournaments like to be outdoors because of the net and because of the better visibility (on a good day).) I do make an effort, which I'd like to see more tournament directors do, to have the freestyle be on a suitable surface (in our case, we use a volleyball court that is pretty good for freestyle) and in a central location relative to the rest of the event (again, we picked our site because it has the volleyball court right there, next to the main booth and only a few yards from the finals net court). However, I feel strongly that the World Championships, which are the showcase event for the sport and the most likely to attract big media and the top players, should no sooner make freestylers compete outdoors than make net players compete on sand courts. Oh, wait, Portland is famous for both. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:46:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02793 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:45:59 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2765) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02763 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:45:19 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F9.hotmail.com [207.82.250.20]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA30551 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:38:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 13243 invoked by uid 0); 3 Oct 1997 19:38:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19971003193826.13242.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:38:26 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] IFAB. live music, ramifications... Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:38:26 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Dan, Ryan- would the lack of view for the musician solve your problems with live music in competition? Are there other problems? l8r- vince Telling a musician to face a wall when he plays, as wierd as it sounds, would be an adequate solution. Eliminating or modifying Music and Movement could also work. DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 19:56:54 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02905 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:56:36 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2877) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02875 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:55:57 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30805 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:49:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:50:11 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Purely Technical Judging Format proposal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Here's a copy of last year's submission to this list by Scott Davidson . It is a tiny bit out of date, since people did submit comments, but I thought it would serve as a good point of reference for this discussion of technical vs. presentation freestyle judging: Steve ------ Original From: Scott Davidson Original Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:55:12 -0500 Original To: freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Here is a new Idea... please read it and give me a critique! FIVE POINT SHRED EVENT Objective: To obtain the most points. Highest score wins. Why do we need a new event? Freestyle players are being pulled in two directions. On one hand, the "Worlds Style" judging system asks players to mix elements of dance, choreography, variety and execution, while simultaneously penalizing them for drops (and IFAB is considering stronger drop penalties, so heavy that one drop would predetermine that that player could not win the event). On the other hand, the shredders and BAP are pushing the edge of difficulty and forcing the level of play towards such a difficult level that inserting these moves into strings in the "Worlds Style" system is counterproductive. When the top level players get together, they NEVER practice strings that would satisfy the "Worlds Style" scoring, they show off new combos and strings. Big tricks, back to back. Many of the best freestylers in the world choose not to compete because of the current judging system. The Comprimise: The Five Point Shred event allows players a structured opportunity to compete, while not removing them from their element. The event focuses on difficulty, execution and variety, scoring players in the same style as Olympic Diving. Rewarding players for difficulty and focusing on the style of play that the best players enjoy. Description: * Each player will perform 3 different strings of 5 contacts each. * Tricks are submitted in advance, and must be performed in order. * If a drop occurs during a string, it is the end of that attempt. * Players must be kicking the footbag prior to the start of their string attempt. * The first add contact must be the the first trick in the players selected string. * To cleanly end a string, a player must show control immediately following the fifth add contact by kicking the footbag at least twice. * Judges will score everything up until the drop. * The player can choose to make another attempt, but the second attempt becomes the final score. Player CANNOT choose the better score if a drop also shortens the second attempt. * Adjusted Adds (i.e. Barfly = 4.3) are determined for each trick. * A canonical list will be created of tricks and their Adjusted Add Value. This will be attained through discussion of top players then published on paper and on the internet. * An add/contact ratio is calculated by dividing the total adds by the number of tricks (5). Judging (similar to diving system) * Six judges. * Each trick is allowed 1 point. 5 points possible from each judge. * A drop is the end of the string. Judges will score up until the drop. * Judges must come up with their own scores without discussion. * Criteria for judging (iron this out through discussion, here are examples suggested so far): * Mandatory deductions: - Poor set, -.1 - Slop (upper body contact), -.5 - Motions that do not meet their catagorical criteria. Non-circling dexterities, "the's", -.25 Delay foul, kick more than delay, -.25 - General control, range -.1 to -.3 - Balance, range -.1 to -.3 - ????? * ??? Possible Additional value for doing 4 add moves on both sides.? Like .2 mandatory additional value for equal use? Do we want to promote equal use? This would be a good way. * Drop the high and low scores. Example string for judging: L Butterfly - R Ripwalk - L Barfly - R Paradox Whirl - L Paradox Whirl Add computation: 3 + 4 + 4.3 + 4.3 + 4.3 = 19.9 Add/Contact Ratio: 19.9 / 5 = 3.98 For example's sake, lets say the above string was performed flawlessly, except for 1 poor set from the Barfly: Judge 1 = 4.9 (correct score) Judge 2 = 5.0 (this judge missed the poor set deduction) Judge 3 = 4.7 (bad score for reasons unknown) Judge 4 = 4.9 Judge 5 = 5.0 Judge 6 = 4.9 Throw away the high (5.0) and the low (4.7) and here is the result: 4.9 + 4.9 + 5.0 + 4.9 = 19.7 Soften the score by multiplying it by .75 (I would like to know the reasoning behind this in diving, I believe it is to reduce the point spreads by 25% so that players leads don't look insurmountable): 19.7 * .75 = 14.775 Round that up to the hundredth: 14.78 Multiply that by the add/contact ratio: 14.78 x 3.98 = 58.8244 Round that up to the hundredth: 58.82 Raw score of 58.82 for that string. Players and judges do three strings per round, the scores are entered into a computer program developed in Filemaker Pro v.1.2 for Mac by Enlightener. Computer will do all calculations. After three strings, the per-round score is added up, lets say this player scored the same on each string in this round (very unlikely), 58.82 x 3 = 176.46, that would be a very good score. Two rounds of this (one per day in a 2 day tourney) would be plenty for a good event. The second round, players cannot use any of the same strings from first round. We need to discuss if we will be doing cumulative score for second round, that could make it interesting! _________=====-=---0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0- Okay, what do you think? This is a text file on my mac, so I can edit it. I did not write this in my email program so there might be some funny characters in there. I envision this as the raging shred event of the future, and Kenny likes it, so what do you think? It is totally up for discussion, everything is. So give me feedback, be harsh if you need be. See ya@ Scott Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 20:32:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03246 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:32:55 GMT From: swingert@creighton.edu Received: from swingert@creighton.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3079) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03077 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:13:05 GMT Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.15]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA31372 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:06:13 -0700 Received: from bluejay.creighton.edu by mailjay.creighton.edu with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA247149172; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:06:12 -0500 Received: from localhost by bluejay.creighton.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA159149171; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:06:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:06:11 -0500 (CDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Tapping Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Has anyone ever hit: Tapping double down? Pixie Paradon? Pixie Butterswirl? Pixie Blender? Pixie Osis? How about fairy in any of those combos? Any secrets? Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 20:42:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03506 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:42:00 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3457) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03455 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:37:00 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA32103 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:30:07 -0700 Received: from crater.cs.uidaho.edu (hill9361@crater.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.110]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.1) with ESMTP id PAA12856; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by crater.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id NAA22140; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: crater.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Hillebrand To: samuelj@HUTCHCC.EDU cc: FREESTYLE@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] COMPETITION In-Reply-To: <009BB359.82BCDA33.19@hutchcc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At my first tournament (worlds '97), I was hitting mostly 3s, 4s, and one 5, but it didn't matter since I had no experience performing...I still bit the big one. I guess if I want to do better in the future at competitions, I will have to practice going solo in front of an audience. Not that I will easily find a similar audience (made up of BAPers/idols who are keeping score with a pencil). On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 samuelj@HUTCHCC.EDU wrote: > I would just like to ask all you kickers what level of play were you at when you went to your first tournament. Were you already doing 3 and 4 add moves? And > what level should I be at before I go to my first tournament? > Jeremy Samuel > SAMUELJ@HUTCHCC.EDU > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 3 20:53:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03555 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03551 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:23 GMT Received: from hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3548) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03546 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:22 GMT Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.177]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA32467 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:46:30 -0700 Received: from skull.cs.uidaho.edu (hill9361@skull.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.55.108]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.1) with ESMTP id PAA13351 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hill9361@localhost) by skull.cs.uidaho.edu (8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id NAA22996 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: skull.cs.uidaho.edu: hill9361 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Hillebrand To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] IFAB. live music, ramifications... In-Reply-To: <19971003193826.13242.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Telling a musician to face a wall when he plays, as wierd as it sounds, > would be an adequate solution. Eliminating or modifying Music and > Movement could also work. > > DK But would anyone be encouraged to use live music if the musicians couldn't watch the player? The player might also have to worry about the musician(s) goofing up, replacing the advantage of live music with a big disadvantage. Maybe it is a good idea, and that will keep people from doing it very often? ______________________________________________________________________ Matt P. Hillebrand hill9361@cs.uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill9361 From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 00:51:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05723 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:51:39 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05719 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:51:37 GMT Received: from scalf@utdallas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5716) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05714 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:51:36 GMT Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02422 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:44:46 -0700 Received: from apache.utdallas.edu (scalf@apache.utdallas.edu [129.110.16.9]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09052 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:44:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (scalf@localhost) by apache.utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19787 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:44:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: apache.utdallas.edu: scalf owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:44:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Derric Scalf To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re... COMPETITION Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org It is never too early to compete. My first competition - April 97 - I could do an occasional butterfly into paradox mirage. A few twos, etc. Nothing that great. But I got up there and had a great time. The hardest part about competing is standing in front of everyone. I always get nervous, but the only way I can think to get over that is to compete more often. I have never heard anyone make fun of a player for competing. If you go up and give it your best, who cares what you hit. Everyone will just see how much better you have gotten the next time they see you compete. That is my opinion. Later. -D From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 03:44:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06790 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 03:44:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06786 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 03:44:26 GMT Received: from iguana04@sprynet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6783) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA06781 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 03:44:25 GMT Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.1.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA04628 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:37:37 -0700 Received: from newmicronpc (dd80-023.compuserve.com [199.174.169.23]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA04402 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:37:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199710040337.UAA04402@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Elizabeth Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Re: Level of Skill to Compete Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:51:17 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org | I would just like to ask all you kickers what level of play were you at when you went to |your first tournament. |Were you already doing 3 and 4 add moves? And | what level should I be at before I go to my first tournament? | Jeremy Samuel | SAMUELJ@HUTCHCC.EDU Hi, I don't have a ton of experience as far as freestyle competition is concerned, however, I was able to compete at novice net at a time when I could only toe stall. This gave me the courage to compete at an unintimidating level and build courage to compete in other competitions. ...compete enough times and before you know it, you're competing intermediate and advanced. I think that you should just go for it if your interested in competing; the level of your playing will improve with the experience. More incentive to skool harder than you already do when you kick with all of the incredible kickers. Anyway, I'll refrain from saying more because I haven't competed for over a year or two, but wanted to put in a woman's opinion for competing at freestyle at a non-advanced level. When I finally had the nerve to do a single routine, they didn't have any woman's intermediate or novice(do they have novice freestyle at tourney's yet?) so I had to compete in men's intermediate. As you can imagine...I was definitely lacking some of the comparable moves. I think at most I pulled a few 3 add moves...mostly one and two, dropped a million times because i had never choreographed anything. Sort of a shotgun routine. Now, realizing that there isn't really enough competition for woman's freestyle, I'll probably just continue to compete woman's advanced rather than compete Men's intermediate again. I think, as you can tell by these ongoing debates over preformance vs. technical difficulty being the virtue of any routine, you could kick ass just by hitting a lower add routine with fewer drops (in most cases). so, if you can just pull a few moves, skool them long and good and you'll be better off than alot of people going into competition. Anyway, I may be over-generalizing. I think, currently, the sport is new enough that it encourages any level competitor to help spread the good word. who knows, maybe someday there will be tournaments for different leagues of players. Like soccer, for example, ...premiere, select, club, varsity, state, districts, little league, whatever... blab blab blab adios, Jane From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 04:01:43 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06880 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:01:41 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06876 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:01:39 GMT Received: from iguana04@sprynet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6873) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA06871 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:01:38 GMT Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.1.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA04781 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:54:50 -0700 Received: from newmicronpc (dd80-023.compuserve.com [199.174.169.23]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA12831 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:54:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199710040354.UAA12831@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Re: Woman's Freestyle Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:08:33 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey everyone, I was just thinking, after that last letter... What's the turn-out for women freestylers at tournaments these days anyway? okay, let's say, for World's 97 for example. Has the number increased enough yet that there is novice, intermediate and advanced bracket? Am I pushing it with even a women's intermediate bracket? Seems to me, we'd be more likely to increase the women's kicking population if we could have a trial women's novice or int. category so that they wouldn't be led astray by having to compete in men's intermediate. It shouldn't matter, but maybe it does.(?) Okay, I guess it doesn't have to work that way, but something about it must be keeping more women from competing, or even picking up the sport in general...or, maybe there are just more closet kickers than I think... ... How are tournaments set up these days anyway? Is it set up so that,like net, you generally begin novice or intermediate and then as you begin winning matches, you step up a level to harder competition? Or is freestyle difficult enough that you just compete where ever you feel comfortable? Are there any Official IFAB words on this? I suppose I could just go read it online, right, Steve? :-) www. I'll do that! Adios, Jane From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 07:14:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA07685 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:14:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA07677 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:14:17 GMT From: freefloe@continet.com Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7674) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07672 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:14:17 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA06223 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:07:29 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.77]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAB95 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:08:36 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] women in freestyle Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:08:36 -0700 Message-ID: <19971004070833240.AAB95@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jane Jones wrote: >What's the turn-out for women freestylers at tournaments these days anyway? >okay, let's say, for World's 97 for example. >Has the number increased enough yet that there is novice, intermediate and >advanced bracket? I haven't seen the numbers increase and I wonder if perhaps they've decreased. I attribute this mainly to several top women discontinuing their freestyle in competition (for a variety of reasons)...Jody Welch, Julie Symons, Constance Constable, Heather Muggleton, and several others. There hasn't been the influx of new women freestylers to even or increase the numbers. However, I do want to recognize Christy Rapp and Wendy Currin (friends and Free FLOE members) who competed in freestyle for the first time at Worlds and Ann Kaplan, Evanne LaMarche and other women who are filling the void. >Am I pushing it with even a women's intermediate bracket? It would be great to see an intermediate women's freestyle event and may encourage more women to try, as it has in Singles women's intermediate net at worlds. I worry about having enough women to run freestyle at all though. THis is a great question...women, what would it take to get more of you competing in freestyle? I suggest that women host freestyle clinics and regular (even if it's only once a month) kicks with only women. I've come to believe that the men are doing generally what they can to encourage, teach, and bring women into the sport. From experience I find that when we have Betty Jams or all women in a circle women tend to watch and it's pretty easy to get them to join us. MAny of us women in footbag have competed against and with men for much of our lives and are comfortable in doing so, though there's a large group of women who for many reasons don't like playing sports with mainly men. The energy of circles does tend to be different. Do people have other ideas to encourage more women to compete? We seem to have a lot of new women tearing it up on the net court, but we are in danger of losing our representation in freestyle. peace, becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 07:54:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA07832 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:54:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA07827 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:54:49 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7824) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07822 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:54:49 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA06457 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:48:01 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971004070833240.AAB95@LOCALNAME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:48:58 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] women in freestyle Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:08 AM -0700 10/4/97, Becca wrote: >Do people have other ideas to encourage more women to compete? We seem to >have a lot of new women tearing it up on the net court, but we are in danger >of losing our representation in freestyle. Just keep being there to set that example. I can tell you from my many years of experience at the grass-roots level trying to recruit freestylers that women very rarely join a circle with only men in it. But when we get a woman in the circle, even (especially?) one of the top women, women are *remarkably* more likely to come up and ask us questions, and eventually to join us. While there are probably a *lot* of women circle-kickers, the number of women (and men) who actually play competitively is very very low; the number of women who actually drill freestyle moves is countable on one hand. It's gone up a lot recently for men, but since the pool of women was already smaller to start with, and since there are so few role models remaining out there, female participation in the organized freestyle sport is definitely going down; I don't think women's freestyle has really ever reached "critical mass", but I think it can. In general, this sport (male + female) is TINY compared to the casual recreational "hacky-sackers" out there. I know there are a lot of females who kick, but it is still no easy task converting hacky-slackers into freestylers. I suspect the more we focus on difficulty (for better or worse), the more it will take a very specific type of person to enter the competitive arena. That type of person, male or female, will need to be obsessive, extremely athletic, and absolutely insane. :-) Maybe once the transition is complete (to high-tech freestyle, a totally different sport than when many of us started), if there are still women playing, we will start to recruit more new-skoolers of the feminine persuasion. Steve P.S. Jane, we've missed you. Does this mean you're back in the sport? We don't have enough women to spare right now, so get yourself back into skool, sistah. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 18:17:43 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01323 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:16:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01319 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:16:55 GMT From: swingert@creighton.edu Received: from swingert@creighton.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1316) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01314 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:16:54 GMT Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.15]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10360 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:16:54 -0700 Received: from bluejay.creighton.edu by mailjay.creighton.edu with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA002209012; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:16:53 -0500 Received: from localhost by bluejay.creighton.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA283599012; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:16:52 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:16:52 -0500 (CDT) To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Move Name Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Does anyone know the name for these moves... 1. clip. op in. op. out. op. osis (ripwalk that bails to opp. osis) 2. clip. op. in. op. in. op. op. out. op. clip (blurry ripwalk?) Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 18:23:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01389 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:23:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01385 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:23:53 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1382) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01380 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:23:53 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F34.hotmail.com [207.82.250.45]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA10433 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:23:55 -0700 Received: (qmail 13112 invoked by uid 0); 4 Oct 1997 18:23:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19971004182354.13111.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.196.104.50 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 04 Oct 1997 11:23:53 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.196.104.50] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: COMPETITION Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 11:23:53 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org There was a kid at Muckfest II (the Albany Tulipfest part 2 , 1996).. I think it was 1996, anyway. He must have dropped over a dozen times, his only add contact was a flying clipper in the last two seconds of his routine. No secondary contact there, either. The moral? you will probably get embarrased the first time, unless your name is Mika or you;re from New Zealand or something. JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 18:36:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01448 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:36:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01444 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:36:42 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1441) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01439 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 18:36:42 GMT Received: from f85.hotmail.com (F85.hotmail.com [207.82.250.191]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10542 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:36:44 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by f85.hotmail.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04467 for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710041837.LAA04467@f85.hotmail.com> Received: from 208.196.104.50 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 04 Oct 1997 11:37:22 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.196.104.50] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Name Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 11:37:22 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Does anyone know the name for these moves... > > 1. clip. op in. op. out. op. osis > (ripwalk that bails to opp. osis) I don't understand this, Sean. If I've just done the 2nd dex (butterfly-like) then doing an osis with the opposite foot would be really, really hard. *Really* hard. But if you do a butterfly and bail to osis it's sorta refraction - so 'stepping refraction,' okay? > 2. clip. op. in. op. in. op. op. out. op. clip > (blurry ripwalk?) Can you hit any of these moves, or do you just sit in front of the terminal doing bong hits saying, "wait... no, wait! I got it now..." I GUESS you could do a blurry paradox ripwalk, like blur with a butterfly back to the set clipper.. If you were Bruce Lee from Nebraska or maybe if your name was Daryl...something. Then you could name this move... Freakazoid. And do me one more favor, Sean. Don't say "op op" because you're making my head inspin. Just one will do fine. You could say left or right leg, but If I start on my left clipper and said,"op in,op in,op in,op in,op in, op toe" then I should obviously have a problem walking straight, but the bag will be resting on my left toe. right? JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 19:00:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01537 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:00:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01533 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:00:07 GMT Received: from ericwindsor@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1530) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA01528 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:00:06 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F61.hotmail.com [207.82.250.147]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10808 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:00:07 -0700 Received: (qmail 4139 invoked by uid 0); 4 Oct 1997 19:00:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19971004190006.4138.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.155.18.101 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 04 Oct 1997 12:00:06 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.155.18.101] From: "Eric Windsor" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Name Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 12:00:06 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Does anyone know the name for these moves... > > 1. clip. op in. op. out. op. osis > (ripwalk that bails to opp. osis) -------blurry flux-------woa, very phat > > 2. clip. op. in. op. in. op. op. out. op. clip > (blurry ripwalk?) >------------blurry paradox ripwalk. Isnt a ripwalk already blurry? >Sean > Eric Windsor O /|\ o \\ _// ` > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 20:05:17 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01894 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 20:05:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01889 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 20:05:11 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1886) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA01884 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 20:05:10 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11460 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:05:12 -0700 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA27304; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne To: Eric Windsor cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Name In-Reply-To: <19971004190006.4138.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Eric Windsor wrote: > > 1. clip. op in. op. out. op. osis > > (ripwalk that bails to opp. osis) > > -------blurry flux-------woa, very phat Sounds right to me; although it could be a miraging refraction. I think it's blurry flux (like blurry torque, only the second dex is reversed). > > 2. clip. op. in. op. in. op. op. out. op. clip > > (blurry ripwalk?) > > >------------blurry paradox ripwalk. Isnt a ripwalk already blurry? Ripwalk isn't blurry because the second dexterity isn't paradox. Blurry ripwalk is a blur bail to a butterfly which is paradox. You'd have to have pretty fast feet for this one. Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 4 21:36:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA02329 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:35:59 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA02325 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:35:57 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2322) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA02320 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:35:57 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F91.hotmail.com [207.82.250.197]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA12489 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 14:36:00 -0700 Received: (qmail 3344 invoked by uid 0); 4 Oct 1997 21:35:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19971004213559.3343.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.196.104.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 04 Oct 1997 14:35:58 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.196.104.156] From: "Josh Penney" To: marigold@vcn.bc.ca, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] An argument in semantics [sorta was : Move Name] Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 14:35:58 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>In a moment of Pain,Eric Windsor stammered: Isnt a ripwalk already blurry? >>In Wisdom quoth the Verhoef: >Ripwalk isn't blurry because the second dexterity isn't paradox. Thank you Adrian. This brings up a point I've been think'n about for a couple o' weeks now. Physically, there is no discernable difference (at least to me) between a "stepping" and a "blurry" set. Now obviously, the difference is contextual but what I'm tired of hearing are statements like blurry legover - come on man - that's double legover, blurry eclipse, and blurry butterfly. Can we please straighten this out for once and for everybody? Technically, a blur could be described as a 'stepping paradox mirage', but since it is followed by a mirage deemed by the gods as "paradox" then instead we say "blurry paradox mirage". Now I don't know why this is, because if the p@ is already inclusive with the term "blurry" then it should just be called "blurry mirage", right? It's got to be some sort of irregular freestyle verb because, I guess mainly from overusage. "Blurry mirage" sounds wrong. Maybe it means pogo-same side mirage... I don't know;This is very confusing. I think this may be one of the only cases where this happens -generally the way it works out is: blurry whirl = stepping (or miraging) p@ whirl. stepping whirl = stepping (or miraging) *same side* whirl, also called 'double whirl' blurry drifter = stepping (or miraging) p@ drifter. stepping drifter = stepping (or miraging) drifter, also called 'high plains drifter'. Is everyone okay with this? Will I go to a tournament and have someone ask me to hit 'blurry eclipse' again? Probably. But I can hit it ["it" being what I've heard called _The Stepping Lunar Eclipse] that way, too. (that's a good thing, boys and girls_) aside : [ I realize the difference in style b'tween stepping mirage and barrage, and other moves which are similar in that the dexterity is performed mainly around the calf of the leg (barrage style) in opposition with the first dexterity performed by the thigh (stepping or "blurry" style) but this post is concerned simply with the matter of a naming convention and not those differences presented. Just adding to the maelstorm of chaos when it's needed most; JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 5 04:08:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA04295 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:07:58 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA04290 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:07:55 GMT Received: from fdtd81d@prodigy.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4287) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA04285 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:07:53 GMT Received: from pimaia2w.prodigy.com (pimaia2w.prodigy.com [198.83.19.115]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17046 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:07:58 -0700 Received: from mime2.prodigy.com (mime2.prodigy.com [192.168.253.26]) by pimaia2w.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA71896; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:07:57 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by mime2.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id AAA42038; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:07:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199710050407.AAA42038@mime2.prodigy.com> X-Mailer: Prodigy Internet GW(v0.9beta) - ae01dm04sc03 From: FDTD81D@prodigy.com ( JEREMY C KELLER) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:07:56, -0500 To: swingert@creighton.edu cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Tapping Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tapping double down? pixie set to tap to same leg double (fairy direction) opp clip? I'm very close. Pixie Paradon? very close again. Pixie Butterswirl? A few times. Pixie Blender? pixie set to same leg blender? once. pixie set to opp blender? I'll try tomarrow. Pixie Osis? which side? pixie to same side is toe blender(I think), to opp is like toe set torque. I have hit both (not to hard). any secrets? sell your joints to science, and replace them w/ rubber :-) an extremely high pixie set is the answer. try pixie diving butterfly or pixie eggbeater. fun, fun, fun :-) later, Jeremy From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 5 04:12:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA04344 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:12:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA04340 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:12:04 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4337) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA04335 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:12:02 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17076 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:12:07 -0700 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA20606; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:12:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne To: Josh Penney cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: An argument in semantics [sorta was : Move Name] In-Reply-To: <19971004213559.3343.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Josh Penney wrote: > Technically, a blur could be described as a 'stepping paradox mirage', > but since it is followed by a mirage deemed by the gods as "paradox" > then instead we say "blurry paradox mirage". Now I don't know why this > is, because if the p@ is already inclusive with the term "blurry" then > it should just be called "blurry mirage", right? It's got to be some > sort of irregular freestyle verb because, I guess mainly from overusage. A blur is not defined as a *stepping* paradox mirage, it's defined as a miraging paradox mirage(blurry mirage). I'm pretty sure that stepping refers to a blurry set trick that ends up on the same side of the body or refers to the same leg doing the dex a 2nd time . It doesn't have to be paradox. I'm trying to make a clear defintion of what I think is stepping but I'm finding it really hard to explain:-) An example of some stepping moves would be: stepping whirl (double whirl done with blurry style): clip> op inout dex> same inout dex> op clip stepping butterfly swirl: clip> op inout dex> same outin dex> op swirl The only problem is that we haven't come up with a concrete definition of stepping vs. blurry. For example, a blurry drifter = stepping paradox drifter. I think Stepping:- should only refer to non-paradox moves - has to end on the same side of the body (set w right, end with right) Blurry -a clipper set mirage to a *paradox* move See ya, Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 5 04:21:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA04418 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:21:18 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA04414 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:21:14 GMT Received: from marigold@vcn.bc.ca () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4411) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA04409 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:21:11 GMT Received: from vcn.bc.ca (opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17172 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:21:16 -0700 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22379; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:21:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Verhoef Anne To: JEREMY C KELLER cc: swingert@creighton.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping In-Reply-To: <199710050407.AAA42038@mime2.prodigy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, JEREMY C KELLER wrote: > > Tapping double down? pixie set to tap to same leg double (fairy > direction) opp clip? I'm very close. Huh??? what are you talking about?? I think Sean was talking about the move fusion: a reverse miraging double down toe> op outin dex> op outin dex> same outin dex> op clip Adrian -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 5 15:46:43 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00338 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:45:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00334 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:45:55 GMT Received: from ericwindsor@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (331) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00329 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:45:54 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F27.hotmail.com [207.82.250.38]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21476 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 08:45:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 10006 invoked by uid 0); 5 Oct 1997 15:45:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19971005154550.10005.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.155.18.101 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 08:45:50 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.155.18.101] From: "Eric Windsor" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 08:45:50 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jeremy said: >Tapping double down? pixie set to tap to same leg double (fairy >direction) opp clip? I'm very close. >Pixie Paradon? very close again. >Pixie Butterswirl? A few times. >Pixie Blender? pixie set to same leg blender? once. pixie set to >opp blender? I'll try tomarrow. >Pixie Osis? which side? pixie to same side is toe blender(I think), >to opp is like toe set torque. I have hit both (not to hard). > Damm! Where were you at worlds? >any secrets? sell your joints to science, and replace them w/ rubber >:-) an extremely high pixie set is the answer. >try pixie diving butterfly or pixie eggbeater. fun, fun, fun :-) >later, I got it! how about a pixie eggbeating atom smashing blended swirling osis bail to other foot! Ummmm, not quite yet there! Eric Windsor O /|\ o \\ _// ` > Jeremy > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 5 16:00:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00398 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:00:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00394 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:00:00 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (391) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00389 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:00:00 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F43.hotmail.com [207.82.250.54]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA21594 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 09:00:00 -0700 Received: (qmail 14382 invoked by uid 0); 5 Oct 1997 16:00:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19971005160000.14381.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.93.51.100 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 08:59:58 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.93.51.100] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 08:59:58 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> Tapping double down? pixie set to tap to same leg double (fairy >> direction) opp clip? I'm very close. LIES AND BLASPHEMY. If you are, then I kneel before your all-powerful bufu 'shooting-set-from-toe' . Tell me where you live and I'll come and sleep on your front lawn for a hope of glimpsing the power. >I think Sean was talking about the move fusion: a reverse miraging double >down > >toe> op outin dex> op outin dex> same outin dex> op clip See, That's what *I* was thinking, but 'tapping' style instead of 'reverse mirage' Ergh. Maybe I shouldn't have gotten out of bed this morning, eh, Adrian? It's personally making my legs ache just trying any of those... But now I have a little more dreaming material - I'll try a pixie double legover today if the ol' smear is working smooth. JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 5 22:41:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02357 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:41:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA02353 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:41:07 GMT Received: from adriand@callplus.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2350) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02348 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:41:06 GMT Received: from inetsrv.callplus.co.nz (mail.callplus.co.nz [203.98.15.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27422 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:41:07 -0700 Received: by mail.callplus.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id <4D18WKGQ>; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:40:49 +1300 Message-ID: <11FA7FAAAED1D01194C700203573F13C03E0A3@mail.callplus.co.nz> From: Adrian Dick To: "'Josh Penney'" Cc: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Re: COMPETITION Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:40:47 +1300 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Good call :) The first tournament myself Damian and Stuart entered, the best stuff we could hit was a 3 stall combo (inside delay, toe delay, outside delay)... and we could get 100 "hackys" in 3 minutes... (we thought we could take advantage of New Zealands advanced scoring system)... >From memory we all got in the top 5 (yes Josh, there was more than 5 people who entered) Later! > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Penney [SMTP:kilobit@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 1997 7:24 AM > To: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: [freestyle] Re: COMPETITION > > There was a kid at Muckfest II (the Albany Tulipfest part 2 , 1996).. > I think it was 1996, anyway. > > He must have dropped over a dozen times, his only add contact was a > flying clipper in the last two seconds of his routine. No secondary > contact there, either. > > The moral? you will probably get embarrased the first time, unless > your > name is Mika or you;re from New Zealand or something. > > JP > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 00:39:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03025 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:39:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03021 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:39:46 GMT Received: from fdtd81d@prodigy.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3018) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03016 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:39:44 GMT Received: from pimaia2w.prodigy.com (pimaia2w.prodigy.com [198.83.19.115]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29817 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 17:39:47 -0700 Received: from mime2.prodigy.com (mime2.prodigy.com [192.168.253.26]) by pimaia2w.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA79380; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:39:45 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by mime2.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id UAA23214; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:39:45 -0400 Message-Id: <199710060039.UAA23214@mime2.prodigy.com> X-Mailer: Prodigy Internet GW(v0.9beta) - ae01dm04sc03 From: FDTD81D@prodigy.com ( JEREMY C KELLER) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:39:45, -0500 To: kilobit@hotmail.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Tapping double down? pixie set to tap to same leg double (fairy >> direction) opp clip? I'm very close. LIES AND BLASPHEMY. If you are, then I kneel before your all- powerful bufu 'shooting-set-from-toe' . Tell me where you live and I'll come and sleep on your front lawn for a hope of glimpsing the power. I tried again today and couldn't quite hit it. so, I have not hit it yet, but I'm very close(I can get all the dex's but can't get it to stay on my foot) But now I have a little more dreaming material - I'll try a pixie double legover today if the ol' smear is working smooth. pixie double legover - toe> same inout>(tap) same inout>opp outin>same toe or toe>same inout>(tap) opp inout> opp outin>same toe I think both are pixie double legover and I hit both after reading your post and both are very hard although I think the first is harder as for smear I hit it pretty well, in fact last weekend in carbondale at the chaos tournament I hit a personal record of 5 in a row(no pause just smear to same smear) but I still have a lot of trouble w/ weak side. jeremy From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 13:31:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA06817 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:29:02 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA06813 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:29:01 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6810) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA06808 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:29:00 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA05444 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:29:09 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id na071981 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:38:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] IFAB. live music, ramifications... Message-Id: <000000350342958989525@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 08:32:05 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Oct 3, 1997, 3:46:24 PM US CST Matt Hillebrand wrote: >But would anyone be encouraged to use live music if the musicians couldn't >watch the player? The player might also have to worry about the Yes, I would. And the liveness of the music is what motivates me to play my best. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 13:59:06 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA07065 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:56:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA07061 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:56:34 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7058) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA07056 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:56:33 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA05810 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:56:43 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id fa072025 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:05:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle finals Message-Id: <000000350442958991182@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 08:59:42 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Oct 3, 1997, 1:11:42 PM US CST Becca English-Ross wrote: >the giant Hacky Sack balloon blew away (I wasn't there but it's a great >image). So, in the middle of the final round they moved the finals to a >prison (lots of prisoners for spectators). The three people who didn't have I remember that! But as I recall, the freestyle round was started from scratch, and everyone competed on the gym surface. What sticks in my mind the most was watching Kenny ripping out this hein freestyle - hurricane gusts and all - before the competition was moved. The place was a juvenile detention center, and the lighting sucked. I think it was the last year Andy Linder competed in Singles Freestyle. The really ironic part was that, by the time we got moved and set up in the gym, the little storm had passed, and the weather turned off beautiful. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 14:11:29 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA07187 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:10:13 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA07183 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:10:10 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7180) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA07178 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:10:07 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F44.hotmail.com [207.82.250.55]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA05986 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:10:17 -0700 Received: (qmail 1691 invoked by uid 0); 6 Oct 1997 14:10:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19971006141016.1690.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 07:10:16 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Move Name Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 07:10:16 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Does anyone know the name for these moves... > > 1. clip. op in. op. out. op. osis > (ripwalk that bails to opp. osis) > > 2. clip. op. in. op. in. op. op. out. op. clip > (blurry ripwalk?) > >Sean Eep-op-ork-ah-ah ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 20:37:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03062 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:35:38 GMT Received: from derric@dallasfootbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2994) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02992 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:27:20 GMT Received: from k9gw.corp.netcom.com (k9.corp.netcom.com [204.58.155.100]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11983 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:27:15 -0700 Received: by k9gw.corp.netcom.com; id NAA03048; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ts035.corp.netcom.com(10.2.1.56) by k9gw.corp.netcom.com via smap (3.2) id xma003039; Mon, 6 Oct 97 13:26:46 -0700 Message-ID: <199703081519360660.364F7C9D@smtp.ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.30.23 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 15:19:36 -0600 From: "Derric Scalf" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] paradox rev. mirage? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I've seen a lot of talk about paradox reverse mirages, so I always assumed they existed. clip > same out > op toe I have two questions. First, on blur, it is miraging pdx. mirage, right? clip > op in > op in > op toe Why is a blizzard, as defined on that bitchin' moves list (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~the_sock/movelist.htm) only three adds? clip > op in > op out > op toe Wouldn't that be miraging *paradox* reverse mirage? Same adds as a blur? I'm just wondering how the paradox rev mirage comes in. Now my other question... clip > op out > anything That first little dexterity is killing me. I think I was hearing people call that a 'bubba?' set. Any advice on that? I have a hard enough time just landing clip > op out > op toe, but I would like to play that into something else. And about that crack smoking blurry paradox ripwalk... any advice on hitting that? hehe... Maybe I'll try to hit a ripwalk first... -D From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 20:47:54 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03146 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:47:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03142 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:47:52 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3139) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03137 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:47:51 GMT Received: from [207.94.249.55] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12352; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:47:52 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703081519360660.364F7C9D@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:48:56 -0700 To: "Derric Scalf" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox rev. mirage? Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:19 PM -0700 3/8/97, Derric Scalf wrote: >I've seen a lot of talk about paradox reverse mirages, so I always assumed >they existed. > >clip > same out > op toe Yes, that is paradox reverse mirage. >I have two questions. First, on blur, it is miraging pdx. mirage, right? > >clip > op in > op in > op toe To avoid confusion, could you please try to stick to the full currently-accepted move notation syntax? There's an important word missing from each component above (which I notice people have been doing a lot recently). It's "DEX", meaning "dexterity", because there are other types of components. So, written correctly, the above should say (to avoid confusion): clip > op in dex > op in dex > op toe Yes, this is blur. >Why is a blizzard, as defined on that bitchin' moves list >(http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~the_sock/movelist.htm) only three adds? > >clip > op in dex > op out dex > op toe Blizzard is paradox. Just like Blur, Blizzard is 4 adds. >Wouldn't that be miraging *paradox* reverse mirage? Same adds as a blur? >I'm just wondering how the paradox rev mirage comes in. I'm unclear why you're asking this question. Did someone tell you Blizzard wasn't 4 adds? >Now my other question... >clip > op out > anything >That first little dexterity is killing me. I think I was hearing people >call that a 'bubba?' set. Yes, because the move, "Bubba", is a clipper-set reverse mirage. (clip > op out dex > op toe) >Any advice on that? It's all in the hip. Try drilling same-side butterfly, i.e., "clip > op out dex > op clip" until you can hit it ten times in a row on both sides. Then try Bubba again. The other problem with Bubba (as with most reverse-mirage dexterities) is that you have to start the mirage sooner than with in-out mirage dexterities. So you start the motion as soon as you set instead of waiting a beat. Make any sense? Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 20:52:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03184 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:52:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03180 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:52:35 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3177) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03175 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:52:35 GMT Received: from [207.94.249.55] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12444; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:52:29 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703081519360660.364F7C9D@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:53:27 -0700 To: Adrian Dick From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox rev. mirage? Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:19 PM -0700 3/8/97, Derric Scalf wrote: >..Blizzard.. >Wouldn't that be miraging *paradox* reverse mirage? Same adds as a blur? Ah, I just went and looked at Adrian's move list. Sorry, I must have missed this one when editing the list for Adrian last year. Adrian, "Blizzard" is 4 adds. :-) Please update the list. It is "miraging paradox reverse mirage". Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 21:17:34 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03359 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:17:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03355 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:17:28 GMT Received: from adriand@callplus.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3352) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03350 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:17:26 GMT Received: from inetsrv.callplus.co.nz (mail.callplus.co.nz [203.98.15.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12867 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:17:27 -0700 Received: by mail.callplus.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id <4D18WKJC>; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:17:08 +1300 Message-ID: <11FA7FAAAED1D01194C700203573F13C0512C9@mail.callplus.co.nz> From: Adrian Dick To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: FW: [freestyle] paradox rev. mirage? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:17:06 +1300 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Whoopsie... The big listing has it wrong... the other 1-7 add listings are the most up to date... will fix it now! ( what list am I talking about? the one at http://www.callplus.co.nz/Footbag ) > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Goldberg [SMTP:brat@footbag.org] > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:53 AM > To: Adrian Dick > Cc: freestyle@footbag.org > Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox rev. mirage? > > At 2:19 PM -0700 3/8/97, Derric Scalf wrote: > >..Blizzard.. > >Wouldn't that be miraging *paradox* reverse mirage? Same adds as a > blur? > > Ah, I just went and looked at Adrian's move list. Sorry, I must have > missed this one when editing the list for Adrian last year. > > Adrian, "Blizzard" is 4 adds. :-) Please update the list. It is > "miraging > paradox reverse mirage". > > Steve > From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 21:39:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03464 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:38:37 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03460 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:38:34 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3457) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03455 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:38:29 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13228 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:38:32 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA23980; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:38:27 -0400 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199710062138.RAA23980@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping To: FDTD81D@prodigy.com (JEREMY C KELLER) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Cc: swingert@creighton.edu, freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199710050407.AAA42038@mime2.prodigy.com> from "JEREMY C KELLER" at Oct 5, 97 00:07:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to JEREMY C KELLER: > > > Tapping double down? pixie set to tap to same leg double (fairy > direction) opp clip? I'm very close. I assume that Jeremy is referring to a pixie double over down. I just wanted to say a note on the terms tap and tapping. There is a move called tap which consists of toe set> op out dex [plant] > same in dex > op toe stall This can be visualized as a reverse miraging mirage (with one leg doing both dexterities). So when a person says something is tapping, it is referring to something which has a TOE SET REVERSE MIRAGING MIRAGE element in it... for example ... Tuan can hit a tapping torque... toe set > op out dex [plant] > same in dex> op osis... this is a sick move. However, fusion (while still a sick-ass move), is not a tapping move... it is a move with a reverse miraging set... toe set > op out dex> op out dex > same out dex > op clipper stall Visualized as a reverse miraging double over down. Tapping does not mean stepping. Neither does it mean that there is simply a plant in a move. On the concept of stepping. I think this refers to the set in a move which involves a quick in out dex from a clipper (much like a blurry move) but what happens after the set is not paradox. For example, a stepping mirage (similar to a barrage with a plant in between the dexes) has no paradox element (but otherwise has a set similar to a blur). I do not believe that it has to end up on the same side of the body that it starts. Just trying to straighten out some semantics so we all know what we each of us is saying. Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 22:06:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03669 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:05:59 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03664 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:05:56 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3661) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03659 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:05:55 GMT Received: from [207.94.249.55] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13659 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:05:58 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710062138.RAA23980@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <199710050407.AAA42038@mime2.prodigy.com> from "JEREMY C KELLER" at Oct 5, 97 00:07:56 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:06:56 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Stepping Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:38 PM -0700 10/6/97, Sunil Jani wrote: >On the concept of stepping. I think this refers to the set in a move >which involves a quick in out dex from a clipper (much like a blurry >move) but what happens after the set is not paradox. Exactly. "Stepping" is the identical concept to "Blurry" except that "Blurry" always means paradox, and "stepping" moves are not. To reiterate what I said a while back: stepping = miraging non-paradox ... blurry = miraging paradox ... >Just trying to straighten out some semantics so we all know what we each >of us is saying. Agreed. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 22:18:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03767 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:18:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03763 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:18:21 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3760) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03758 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:18:20 GMT Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.70.126.131]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13870 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:18:22 -0700 Received: from [207.208.4.2] (d2.maxtnt.interaccess.com [207.208.4.2]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA14955; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:17:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:23:30 -0700 To: Verhoef Anne , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: An argument in semantics [sorta was : Move Name] Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi freestylers! Steve G. wrote: >I think > >Stepping:- should only refer to non-paradox moves > - has to end on the same side of the body (set w right, end with > right) > >Blurry -a clipper set mirage to a *paradox* move Well, Steve. Your definition is mostly similar to mine. But you don't need to put the "Has to end on the same side of the body" part, because that would eliminate the "Stepping Double Whirl" which is a lot of fun to do, and certainly a stepping move. The definition should read: Stepping - A modifier to existing trick names, indicating an initial non-paradox in-out leg dexterity by the support leg, followed by the existing trick. Note: The Stepping concept covers all non-paradox "blurry" style moves, like Blurriest which is actually a Stepping Barfly. I still don't have Jehovah's Notation down, so here goes: Stepping Double Whirl (Right side) Left clipper set, right leg in-out dex, right leg blender motion ending in right clipper. Sorry all you young geniouses that have oooooodles of time to invest in some nomenclature that doesn't encompass all the moves. I prefer to spell it out long hand. P.S. I pretty much skip all messages containing Jehovah's Notation because it is all jibberish to me. JSYK. See ya! Scott Davidson From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 6 23:08:29 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04101 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:08:16 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04097 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:08:13 GMT Received: from fdtd81d@prodigy.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4094) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04092 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:08:12 GMT Received: from pimaia2y.prodigy.com (pimaia2y.prodigy.com [198.83.18.95]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14790 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:08:15 -0700 Received: from mime2.prodigy.com (mime2.prodigy.com [192.168.253.26]) by pimaia2y.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA26440 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:08:14 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by mime2.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id TAA16140 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:08:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199710062308.TAA16140@mime2.prodigy.com> X-Mailer: Prodigy Internet GW(v0.9beta) - ae01dm04sc03 From: FDTD81D@prodigy.com ( JEREMY C KELLER) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:08:13, -0500 cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I assume that Jeremy is referring to a pixie double over down. I assume I was also. what I have been refering to as a pixie tap is nothing more than a pixie set then a plant of that same foot followed by a dex of the same foot into whatever. for example I can hit what I call a "tapping" double atw(this is not a real tapping move) it is toe> same inout dex> (plant) same inout dex> same toe (no extra adds, I just kinda like the way it looks) Thanks for the insight and I hope I havn't confused anyone Jeremy From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 00:04:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04723 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:04:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04718 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:04:03 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4715) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA04713 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:04:01 GMT Received: from [207.94.249.55] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15716; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:03:57 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:05:10 -0700 To: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: An argument in semantics Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 5:23 PM -0700 10/6/97, Scott Davidson wrote: >Well, Steve. Your definition is mostly similar to mine. But you don't >need to put the "Has to end on the same side of the body" part, because >that would eliminate the "Stepping Double Whirl" which is a lot of fun to >do, and certainly a stepping move. The definition should read: Scott, maybe you need to have your eyes examined. :-) I never wrote anything of the sort. You are attributing Josh Penney's comments to me. I never said anything about "ending on the same side of the body". That's ludicrous (sorry, Josh). >Stepping - A modifier to existing trick names, indicating an initial >non-paradox in-out leg dexterity by the support leg, followed by the >existing trick. Note: The Stepping concept covers all non-paradox "blurry" >style moves, like Blurriest which is actually a Stepping Barfly. I agree with this definition. >I still don't have Jehovah's Notation down, so here goes: How hard can it be? >Sorry all you young geniouses that have oooooodles of time to invest in >some nomenclature that doesn't encompass all the moves. I don't know why you say this, exactly. I know it's not perfect, but Job's notation works fine for over 90% of the cases we discuss on this list and is really quite easy to understand, read, and write. I have been promoting its usage on this list to make it easier for people to ask questions and discuss moves. I see it as a major part of advancing this sport online. If you can come up with a better notation, believe me, I'm all ears, but for now, let's stick to what's generally working. Why don't you take *5* minutes (since you don't have "oodles of time") to read the following tutorial which I just wrote. I think you will understand it: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Steve's 5-minute tutorial on Job's notation for e-mail freestyle talk: -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is "Blur" in Ben Job's notation, as a point of reference for the rest of the tutorial: clip > op in dex > op in dex > op toe (1) Ben Job realized (and it wasn't so obvious before, believe it or not) that moves basically start with one of two sets: either a toe or a clipper, so each move in his notation is "clip >" or "toe >" meaning "clipper set into" or "toe set into"; and moves basically end with one of two contacts (toe or clipper). So in the case of Blur, the move usually starts with a set out of a clipper delay and ends with a toe.. Hence: "clip > ... > ... toe". (2) The ">" can be read as "into" or "followed by", but is a special symbol because if you say "into" or "followed by" people aren't sure if you mean there's a contact in between or not. The ">" expressly means "without contacting the bag between the things on either side of the > symbol". So when we use ">" we are never talking about "strings" of moves; only about "components" that go into the moves. Hence I tend to refer to each thing after a ">" but before the next ">" as a "component". (3) Ben further noticed that in a huge percentage of the moves (and all of the basic ones), you can easily describe a move in terms of the dexterities involved -- i.e., whether a leg goes "in-out" (mirage-style) around/over the bag, or "out-in" (butterfly-style, reverse-mirage style). To avoid verbosity, these are shortened to just "in" for "in-out" and "out" for "out-in". And the word "dexterity" is shortened to "dex". So in the case of Blur, the notation would give us "... in dex > ... in dex ..." to represent that there are two sequential in-out dexterities in the move. For this tutorial, let's ignore moves like "pogo" and "symposium" and other moves where plants and spins (gyrating, in-spinning, etc.) are significant. They *are* handled by the notation, but it's best to understand the BASIC form of the notation before getting into that stuff, so I'll leave it for another tutorial. (Some of that notation is also open to debate as to whether or not it covers every case.) (4) The only other confusion might be "opposite" versus "same". We decided that, to avoid having to write a move description twice, once for the left side and one for the right, and since people aren't always in agreement about which side is which (don't ask), everything would be "relative". What I mean by "relative" is, when we say "opposite" ("op"), we mean "opposite to the leg/foot referred to just before the ">", and when we say "same", we mean "same as the leg/foot referred to just before the ">". So Blur set from either clipper would be: clip > op in dex > op in dex > op toe (The non-setting foot does the first in-out dexterity; the foot that didn't do that dexterity then does another in-out dexterity; and you catch the bag on the toe of the foot that didn't just do that final dexterity.) (5) Why do we use "relative" meanings for "op" and "same", and not use them to refer to "opposite of setting foot" or "same as setting foot"? The answer is, it really doesn't make a big difference which way we use them, but we have to be consistent and agree to a particular meaning, and most people have accepted the convention in (4) above. I personally think the one we're using now is more sensible, and if you want to spent 1 more minute, read this reasoning. Otherwise, skip it and you're done with the tutorial. Reasoning: if we write everything relative to the setting foot, it confuses the issue for variations on moves (such as "paradox" or "gyrating") where the components are exactly the same, but the set is different. So we (I?) prefer to be able to see the similarity in two moves by comparing their inner components without having to go and figure out which leg is which. If everything is relative ("opposite of or same as leg referred to in the previous component") then things are generally simpler to cut and paste in e-mail. :-) NOTE: Moves can start and end with other surfaces than toes and clippers, including insides (used like toes), dragons (used like clippers), and soles (used either way depending on whether they're cross-body or not), but the description would otherwise be identical. So a move could be "inside > ... > dragon" if it started with an inside set and ended in a dragon, for example. But the key is, regardless of which surface you use, all the stuff in the middle (after the set and before the pick-up) is the same. But let's ignore those cases for the sake of understanding the basic notation. The terms at the beginning and end of the move description are really the least interesting (especially since most of us agree the set isn't really part of the move, again not wanting to open a can of worms onto the great paradox debate :-)). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- End of Tutorial -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 01:39:34 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05550 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:39:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05546 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:39:23 GMT Received: from iguana04@sprynet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5543) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA05541 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:39:22 GMT Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17668 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:39:26 -0700 Received: from newmicronpc (hd53-083.hil.compuserve.com [199.174.233.83]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA10501 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:39:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199710070139.SAA10501@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: Fw: [freestyle] paradox rev. mirage? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:53:23 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sorry Steve, I think I sent this to your address by accident. I bet you just love it when that happens! :-) -------- Hey everyone, (I hate to do this to you Scott, but...) I deleted the Ben Job's code for Blizzard to soon. Someone was saying it was like blur only with the with the miraging paradox "reverse" mirage, rather than miraging paradox mirage. So, was it clip>op in dex>op out dex>toe ? I was going to go try skooling that tonight, but then I was thinking...Isn't that really just like a clipset double legover. Or Is it only clipset double legover if you finish on the toe of the leg doing the second dexterity. Hmmm, perhaps I just answered my own question. Adios, Jane Oh yeah, one more question... I forgot what mobius is. Did that incorporate any part of the blizzard or blur? I better just stick to what's feasible for me now, rather than knot my brain up thinking about this. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 03:24:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06601 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:24:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06597 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:24:18 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6594) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA06592 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:24:18 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F35.hotmail.com [207.82.250.46]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA19613 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:24:22 -0700 Received: (qmail 16546 invoked by uid 0); 7 Oct 1997 03:24:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19971007032418.16545.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.183.204.130 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 20:24:17 PDT X-Originating-IP: [199.183.204.130] From: "Josh Penney" To: brat@footbag.org Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: An argument in semantics Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 20:24:17 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Scott, maybe you need to have your eyes examined. :-) I never wrote >anything of the sort. You are attributing Josh Penney's comments to me. I >never said anything about "ending on the same side of the body". That's >ludicrous (sorry, Josh). Where is this coming from? I said nothing like that; I merely said I'm tired of being asked to hit blurry eclipse! If I DID say that then I'm terribly sorry - But I don't think that was me. I also said that basically blurry and stepping are the same set. The difference between them is what happens *afterward*... you guys know I have no desire to define that mess. That's for Scott, Steve and Bock-Bock to worry about. JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 03:33:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06695 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:33:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06691 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:33:47 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6688) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA06686 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:33:47 GMT Received: from [207.94.249.55] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA19794 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:33:52 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710070139.SAA10501@m9.sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:34:30 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox rev. mirage? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:53 PM -0700 10/6/97, Jane Jones wrote: >Sorry Steve, I think I sent this to your address by accident. I bet you >just love it when that happens! :-) Normally I will resend it for you, so usually it's a good idea to let me do that instead of resending it yourself; that may end up with two copies which might annoy people. So for the rest of you, if that happens, let me take care of it. I can usually resend it so it looks exactly like the original but is addressed correctly. > I was going to go try skooling that tonight, but then I was > thinking...Isn't that really just like a clipset double legover. Or Is it > only clipset double legover if you finish on the toe of the leg doing the > second dexterity. Hmmm, perhaps I just answered my own question. You just answered yourself. That's why we have to be careful about the very end of the notation. You wrote: "clip>op in dex>op out dex>toe" when the actual notation for Blizzard would be: clip > op in dex > op out dex > op toe (you missed the final "op") Double Leg-Over is: clip > op in dex > op out dex > same toe Some folks like to visualize Blizzard as a "Double Leg-Over, bail to opposite toe", so you're on the right track. > Oh yeah, one more question... > I forgot what mobius is. Mobius is a "gyrating torque", which without going into a long-winded definition for "gyrating" means a spinning torque, where you set it with the same foot you do the dexterity with and then spin away, doing the dexterity as you spin, and finishing with an osis. You should try to get in the habit of looking most moves up on the online move list before querying the e-mail list... It's at http://callplus.co.nz/footbag/ Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 03:50:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06774 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:50:33 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA06770 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:50:33 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6767) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA06765 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:50:32 GMT Received: from [207.94.249.55] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20069; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:50:36 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971007032418.16545.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:50:31 -0700 To: "Josh Penney" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: An argument in semantics Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:24 PM -0700 10/6/97, Josh Penney wrote: >Where is this coming from? I said nothing like that; I merely said I'm >tired of being asked to hit blurry eclipse! Okay, well you didn't say it and I didn't say it. So Scott's definitely confused. :-) Heh heh. Either way, yes, "blurry eclipse" is a misnomer. It's "stepping eclipse" -- however, I think this name is ambiguous. It's unclear which leg does the eclipse (the setting leg or the dexterity leg). I think maybe this is where Scott inferred you were saying which side had to do the delay. Maybe someone already has a way of discriminating the two cases? I'd be willing to believe I just don't see something obvious. There is a move "blurry lunar eclipse" if you're interested... clip > op in dex > same in dex > same "eclipse" >I also said that basically blurry and stepping are the same set. The >difference between them is what happens *afterward*... That is correct. Ripwalk, Blur, and Stepping Eclipse all start exactly the same way (although the height and angle of the set may vary slightly) -- the timing, footing, and components are the same. What happens next determines the name of the move. As with almost every other move, it's not any part, but the whole thing that determines what type of move it is (i.e., a move may not be "paradox" until the final contact). But in reality it's all just a convention we've adopted, and it's probably going to change. Eventually, I suspect, "blurry" will lose its "paradox" implication and the common oversimplification people make today by calling "stepping" moves "blurry" will take over, and people will just call everything starting with a mirage "blurry"... Oh well, what can you do? :-) For me, the biggest issue is being able to talk about moves (on e-mail, in casual conversation, or in an official judged competition context) and have everyone understand what's being talked about. For that reason a lot of us harp on the subtle differences in these terms -- to try to find order in an otherwise complex and slightly chaotic evolution of moves. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 04:10:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06981 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:10:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06977 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:10:03 GMT Received: from s9709652@jacaranda.civgeo.rmit.edu.au () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6974) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA06972 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:10:02 GMT Received: from rmit.EDU.AU (voga.rmit.EDU.AU [131.170.1.20]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20391 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:09:55 -0700 Received: from jacaranda.civgeo.rmit.edu.au (jacaranda.civgeo.rmit.EDU.AU [131.170.36.250]) by rmit.EDU.AU (8.8.7/8.7.3/voga/ram3/anti-SPAM) with ESMTP id OAA23711 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:09:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from POISSON/SpoolDir by jacaranda.civgeo.rmit.edu.au (Mercury 1.21); 7 Oct 97 14:11:46 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by POISSON (Mercury 1.21); 7 Oct 97 14:11:11 +1100 From: "LYNTON STEPHENS" Organization: Civil & Geological Engineering RMIT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:11:08 EST-10 Subject: [freestyle] live music X-Confirm-Reading-To: "LYNTON STEPHENS" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: <41675FF5851@jacaranda.civgeo.rmit.edu.au> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all, Yes, I know this topic has been flogged senseless, but here goes. The Jayman came up with a suggestion to have musicians turn away from the player during the routine (the `no see' policy). While this is a good suggestion, it has a few problems. The musician can still react to the crowd, possibly sensing drops and making a pause. Although it is unlikely, a dishonest competitior could have a friend in the crowd give signals to the musician. Unlikely, but possible. It's just a bit too messy and a slightly ridiculous image for the sport, but worth considering. Few would disagree that to perfectly synchronise a freestyle routine to recorded music is much much harder than it is to perfectly synchronise to a live musician. Reasons: one drop and you are in trouble, you have to set and adjust your tempo and timing to the music, rather than the music adjusting to you. Simply, playing to recorded music is harder. But, as many have pointed out live music allows for a greater spectacle. It makes for better synchronised routines for all players who can have it arranged and adds an extra dimension to the performance. So, it seems there needs to be a compromise between fairness in judging and the spectacle for the audience. So, how about this: * Players who use live music are judged to a maximum score for music and movement below the possible 2.0. For example, they can score a max of 1.5 points. i.e. a penalty of 0.5. * Players who use recorded music can gain the max 2.0 points if they are good enough and as Ryan Mulroney suggested they can have the music paused and restarted for drops. This might sound harsh, but I thinks it's fair. As long as the live musician is half-decent, a player is likely to score very close to or exactly 1.5 points in the M&M category. This is a good score, providing an incentive for many players to use live music, which adds to the appeal of the sport to the audience, ESPN viewers and whatever. BUT top level players who want to do really well and/or feel comfortable with recorded music also have an incentive to use a CD or tape in order to demonstrate their timing & tempo skills to the judge and possibly gain a higher score than the others. Any thoughts? This is just an idea I had, feel free to agree with or bag the idea. I have never been to freestyle tournament so maybe you think I ought to shut up? Anyway, shred on regardless. Lynton From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 14:08:04 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09880 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:07:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09875 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:07:42 GMT From: swingert@creighton.edu Received: from swingert@creighton.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9872) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA09870 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:07:41 GMT Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.15]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25728 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:07:50 -0700 Received: from bluejay.creighton.edu by mailjay.creighton.edu with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA163683269; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:07:49 -0500 Received: from localhost by bluejay.creighton.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA276113268; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:07:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:07:48 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: swingert@creighton.edu To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Tapping--Reworked Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What I meant to say (via Jobs' notation) was this: clip > op. in dex > op. in dex > op. out dex > op. clip It seems to me that this would start like blur, but end like butterfly. No Josh, I can't hit it (nor was the bong my inspiration :-). The other trick (pixie double down?) should have been: toe > same in dex > same out dex > same out dex > op. clip Regarding Fusion: I know about that sick move, and I saw Brian McKenzie hit that last weekend (ouch!!!!); a very sick move. :-) Josh Penny wrote regarding pixie double down: >LIES AND BLASPHEMY!!! I've almost hit this move too. What is a pixie same side double down? Doesn't it involve a tap of the foot? According to jobs' notation: toe > same in dex > [same foot plant] > same out dex > same out dex > op. clip I know that it does NOT fit the definition of a true "tap," but who could deny that there is the same characteristic plant of the foot involved in a TRUE tap. Is the above move just a pixie? Or is it something else? Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 16:01:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00562 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:59:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00558 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:59:12 GMT Received: from footbag13@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (555) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00553 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:59:11 GMT From: Footbag13@aol.com Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27295 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:59:12 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA18520 for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971007115606_1898444982@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] contortion question Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok, here it is... The Bizarre question/move of the day. Here's the move: Starting with a right dragon (cross body outside), I place the right foot on the ground (while still doing a dragon delay) and then I step backwards over it with my left foot. This could be described as a dragon>reverse walk-over. (yes, I am flexible) Here's the question: After doing this move, I end up with kind of a "non-cross-body" dragon. I'm almost to the point where I can pull off this delay without the reverse walk over. I'm sure someone has done this delay before. Is it an unusual surface? Does it have a name? Let me know... Jason Phillips From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 16:17:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00830 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:17:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00826 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:17:27 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (823) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00821 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:17:26 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F59.hotmail.com [207.82.250.145]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA27635 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:17:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 16299 invoked by uid 0); 7 Oct 1997 16:17:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19971007161725.16297.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.92.153.160 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:17:23 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.92.153.160] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping--Reworked Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:17:23 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Heeey, Nebraska! >What I meant to say (via Jobs' notation) was this: > clip > op. in dex > op. in dex > op. out dex > op. clip > It seems to me that this would start like blur, but end like >butterfly. No Josh, I can't hit it (nor was the bong my inspiration :-). Good. Then I'm not so depressed after all, because that's blurry Dada. >The other trick (pixie double down?) should have been: > toe > same in dex > same out dex > same out dex > op. clip Right. > >What is a pixie same side double down? Doesn't it involve a tap of the >foot? It's what you described above. I strongly reccomend reading Sunil's post about the 'tap'. Tap is a reverse mirage and a mirage, set from toe with a plant in between. Tap is like starting atom smasher, but planting the dex foot and then miraging with the same back to the set. > toe > same in dex > [same foot plant] > same out dex > same out dex > op. >clip > > I know that it does NOT fit the definition of a true "tap," but who >could deny that there is the same characteristic plant of the foot >involved in a TRUE tap. Is the above move just a pixie? Or is it something >else? A rose by any other name would still be the hein. Pixie double down doesn't infer the use of a tap by any means, but if you wanna throw one in there, then git it! I like watching pixie-atw and fairy-atw, which are essentially double around the world, except for the difference in style. But let's remember this thread started because of a miscommunication within 'the notation'. Someone said they were hitting *pixie* fusion, which is just plain wrong. JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 16:21:19 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00890 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:21:18 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00886 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:21:16 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (883) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00881 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:21:15 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA27722 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:21:15 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id za072851 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:30:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] contortion question Message-Id: <000000353992959086257@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 11:24:17 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Oct 7, 1997, 10:59:08 AM US CST Footbag13@aol.com wrote: >the ground (while still doing a dragon delay) and then I step backwards over >it with my left foot. This could be described as a dragon>reverse walk-over. Sorry, but there's no 'contortion' add in the current system (although I think it is as valid as paradox! 8{). The add count for the move is 2: 1-XB, 1-Del. There is no add specifically for a walkover; it is considered a sylistic variation of the basic delay. And no, a dragon is just an outside delay; there is no unusual surface, but you do get a cross-body add when the contact is done cross body. (note that you do not get a cross-body add when the contact is made in front, and then carried [wrap] or walked over to the cross-body position. Cross-body is point- of-contact dependent) Walkover is 1 add for the delay Hopover is 2 adds for delay and (either body or dexterity) Eclipse is 3 adds for delay, flying contact, and (either body or dexterity) -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 16:23:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00912 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:23:24 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00908 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:23:23 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (905) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00903 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:23:23 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F76.hotmail.com [207.82.250.182]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA27779 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:23:24 -0700 Received: (qmail 23183 invoked by uid 0); 7 Oct 1997 16:23:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19971007162319.23182.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.92.153.160 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:23:18 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.92.153.160] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] contortion question Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:23:18 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Here's the question: >After doing this move, I end up with kind of a "non-cross-body" dragon. I'm >almost to the point where I can pull off this delay without the reverse walk >over. I'm sure someone has done this delay before. Is it an unusual >surface? Does it have a name? Hey Jason and all pretzels concerned: It's not unusual, as an unusual surface is anything that isn't one of the four surfaces - inside, outside, toe and knee. It isn't cross body, because it's not tucked behind your supporting leg. What it is called is frontside Dragon, and while it is one add, it is probably the nastiest thing you could do to yourself. I reccommend consulting an orthapedist before attempting this move. Just remember that adds don't mean difficulty - they mean 'add categories.' Anyone who puts butterfly, atom smasher and toe blur on the same level is cruisin' for a bruisin'. JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 18:55:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01876 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:55:56 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01872 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:55:55 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1869) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01867 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:55:55 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA31125 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:55:56 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19971007032418.16545.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:57:02 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] An argument in semantics Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:50 PM -0700 10/6/97, Steve Goldberg wrote: >There is a move "blurry lunar eclipse" if you're interested... > clip > op in dex > same in dex > same "eclipse" Whoops, sorry, as Adrian Dick pointed out to me, I made a mistake above. (After all that, too.. :-)) Blurry Lunar Eclipse is: clip > op in dex > OP in dex > same "eclipse" Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 22:40:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03902 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:40:03 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03896 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:40:01 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3893) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03891 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:40:00 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02054 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:39:59 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA68932; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:39:42 -0400 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199710072239.SAA68932@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping To: swingert@creighton.edu Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: from "swingert@creighton.edu" at Oct 7, 97 08:44:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to swingert@creighton.edu: > > Okay, now what if you pixie, then do a dex or two with the pixie foot? I > know that wouldn't fit the definition of tapping, but there is the same > [plant] element *required* in order to stop the foot's momentum, right? Is > it pixie or something new/different? > A pixie is just the name of the set from a toe which involves a quick in out dex with the setting foot. It implies nothing about a plant or not. Anytime this quick in out dex is don with wa setting toe... the name is pixie. Now a second issue... when you say double down... it can refer to two moves... double over down is set from a toe... down double down is set from a clipper (abbreviated as down double... not ambiguous). So pixie double over down can be done with a plant (please do not call it a tap because this just confuses the issue) or without a plant, but it is still the same move... regardless of style. Along these lines the actcual move TAP can be done with and without a plant, as well... but it is still a tap. Personally I think it looks cleaner with a big phatty plant. Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 22:56:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04016 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:56:21 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04012 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:56:21 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4009) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04007 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:56:20 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02364 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:56:24 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA88762 for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:56:23 -0400 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199710072256.SAA88762@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Pros and cons about naked feet... To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:56:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all freestylieners: Okay, something I have been meaning to ask for a while. I have a major weakness in my game when it comes to left foot in -out dexes (ie pixies, barrages and whirls, not even beginning to think about doing blurry or stepping stuff on that side). In an effort to remedy this hole in my game, I have recently started to school pixies barefoot on this side in order to get the motion down, and improve some of my muscle memory with my left in-outs. It seems to be working, but I am not sure just quite yet. I was worried that maybe the pixie set would be too different barefoot compared to in lavers (because of the flaps on the toe box) and this way of schooling may be detrimental. Now to my question, does anyone else practice new moves or weak side moves barefoot? Anyone have any input on doing moves barefoot as opposed to in lavers (does it help? do the toe flaps make a big difference on pixie and fairies?). Teva kickers please send some input. I was thinking, that if I do decide to continue with this method of schooling, that I may actually buy a pair of tevas to practice solo in (when learning new moves). Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 7 23:15:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04225 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:15:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04221 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:15:52 GMT Received: from sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4218) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04216 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:15:51 GMT Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02730 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:15:54 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA50364; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:15:44 -0400 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199710072315.TAA50364@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping To: kwiyah@kwiyah.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: swingert@creighton.edu, freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <01bcd373$9a476040$6afb91cc@Tech6.pdq.net> from "Jay" at Oct 7, 97 05:51:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Jay: > > I believe what he was referring to, was performing the pixie, planting, then > performing a dexterity with the same foot... > > toe set -> same in out -> [plant] --> some same foot dex > > He wasn't calling the pixie tapping, but asking if the above was tapping... > I see. Hmmm... first of all... no it is not tapping... the method that I have taken to refer to these move is just to call them pixie same side... ie... toe set> same in dex [plant]>same out dex>op clipper stall = pixie same-side butterfly (or PARKwalk)... toe set>same in dex [plant] > same out dex> op toe stall = pixie same side reverse mirage (or squash)... toe set > same in dex [plant] > same out dex > same toe stall = pixie same side leg over (aka magellan - he's the one who went around the world and back) I think this might be the easiest and clearest way to handle these moves. However, it is redundant to say pixie same side double over down because double over down already implies that the same toe which sets does the dexes... so pixie double over down is enough. The same move with the exceptionof the opposite foot doing the second and third dexes is just called a pixie paradon... toe set > same in dex > op out dex>same out dex> op clipper stall Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 01:53:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05232 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:52:35 GMT Received: from kwiyah@kwiyah.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3970) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03968 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:54:42 GMT Received: from linux1.pdq.net (linux1.pdq.net [208.142.200.100]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02327 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:54:45 -0700 Received: from Tech6.pdq.net (tech6.pdq.net [204.145.251.106]) by linux1.pdq.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA14930; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:01:01 -0500 From: "Jay Merritt" To: "Sunil Jani" , Cc: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Tapping Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:51:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcd373$9a476040$6afb91cc@Tech6.pdq.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> Okay, now what if you pixie, then do a dex or two with the pixie foot? I >> know that wouldn't fit the definition of tapping, but there is the same >> [plant] element *required* in order to stop the foot's momentum, right? Is >> it pixie or something new/different? >> >A pixie is just the name of the set from a toe which involves a quick in >out dex with the setting foot. It implies nothing about a plant or not. >Anytime this quick in out dex is don with wa setting toe... the name is >pixie. I believe what he was referring to, was performing the pixie, planting, then performing a dexterity with the same foot... toe set -> same in out -> [plant] --> some same foot dex He wasn't calling the pixie tapping, but asking if the above was tapping... -Jay From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 02:16:22 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05408 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:16:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05403 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:16:16 GMT Received: from j1876@tir.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5400) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA05398 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:16:14 GMT Received: from sun.tir.com (sun.tir.com [205.138.41.6]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05779 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:16:18 -0700 Received: from default (an250.tir.com [205.218.86.60]) by sun.tir.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18256 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710080216.WAA18256@sun.tir.com> From: "Jay Moldenhauer" To: Subject: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:17:22 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org O.K. once and for all it was a joke..... as far as having a live musician playing with his back to the performer. As someone has mentioned in the past, Peter has won , um-m-m-m-m, (who knows how many titles?), point being if you let the judges do the job that they have been assigned, then they will do the job..........right ?, well???, ....right. And the rest will take care of itself, cream rising to the top, so to speak! Peter knows the cards and he also knows how to play to the cards. Ryan will learn how to play to the cards, and um, uh, Ryan, I am not dissing what you did, because, well first off, I was not there and second off, well..... who cares what the second off is. Hit it and you let the cards fall where they may. One more thing, I am not saying that Ryan did not know the cards, beacuse from what I gather reading this stuff-f-f-f-f, his second round routine would have won the whole thing. Going back, hit it and let the cards fall where they may. The old man is done and going to bed! Jayman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 04:02:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06056 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:01:13 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA06052 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:01:07 GMT Received: from neon088@pacbell.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6049) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA06047 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:01:05 GMT Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07178 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:01:11 -0700 Received: from neon (ppp-206-170-217-35.nhwd02.pacbell.net [206.170.217.35]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.7/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id VAA26387 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:01:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sam Colclough" To: Subject: [freestyle] I hate being a newbie Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:00:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01bcd39e$aa8a11c0$23d9aace@neon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCD363.FE2B39C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCD363.FE2B39C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, I hate being new to the sport of footbag. I have played football = and baseball and basketball all at some point in my short life. (I'm = 14) Nothing, (let me say that again) nothing, compares with freestyle = footbag. I have been practicing whenever I can. Lunch, after school, = between classes, in class (wanna know how to lose footbags? play in = class :) ). Anyway, point is, I have been playing for two months and I = can still only barily do a Jester. I had a short correspondence with = Steve from footbag.org and he told me how he could just do wonders on me = if I could spend a week with him or anyone else good at footbag for that = matter. I really with I had someone to teach me. Common Obi-wan I = wanna learn the ways of the force. I'm calling out for anyone that = lives or can come or whatever to the North Hollywood/Burbank Area in Los = Angeles California, OR that can explain it to me, now, granted, in the = freestyle e-mail messages that I get from this newslist ya all say stuff = like: toe set -> same in out -> [plant] --> some same foot dex and blah blah,=20 well that isn't to mind numbing but I have seen some weird stuff like = that, you all know what I am talking about. Now I may be dumb when it comes to those terms but I really want to = learn. Thank you for reading my post, I hope I didn't waste your time. Thanks, Sam "Ne0N" Colclough PS: Duh, so If you want to help me, then actually E-mail me at: neon088@pacbell.net thanks again party people HACK THE PLANET (and I don't mean computers) ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCD363.FE2B39C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, I hate being new to the sport of footbag.  = I have=20 played football and baseball and basketball all at some point in my = short=20 life.  (I'm 14)  Nothing, (let me say that again) nothing, = compares=20 with freestyle footbag.  I have been practicing whenever I = can. =20 Lunch, after school, between classes, in class (wanna know how to lose = footbags?=20 play in class :) ).  Anyway, point is, I have been playing for two = months=20 and I can still only barily do a Jester.  I had a short = correspondence with=20 Steve from footbag.org and he told me how he could just do wonders on me = if I=20 could spend a week with him or anyone else good at footbag for that=20 matter.  I really with I had someone to teach me.  Common = Obi-wan I=20 wanna learn the ways of the force.  I'm calling out for anyone that = lives=20 or can come or whatever to the North Hollywood/Burbank Area in Los = Angeles=20 California, OR that can explain it to me, now, granted, in the freestyle = e-mail=20 messages that I get from this newslist ya all say stuff = like:
toe set -> same in out -> [plant] --> some = same foot=20 dex
and blah blah,  
well that isn't to mind numbing but I have seen some = weird=20 stuff like that, you all know what I am talking about.
 
Now I may be dumb when it comes to those terms but I = really=20 want to learn.  Thank you for reading = my post, I=20 hope I didn't waste your time.
Thanks,
Sam "Ne0N" Colclough
 
PS: Duh, so If you want to help me, then actually = E-mail me=20 at:
neon088@pacbell.net
thanks again party people
HACK THE PLANET (and I don't mean=20 computers)
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCD363.FE2B39C0-- From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 15:22:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00379 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:21:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00375 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:21:12 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (371) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00369 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:21:11 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F68.hotmail.com [207.82.250.154]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA13417 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:20:53 -0700 Received: (qmail 6822 invoked by uid 0); 8 Oct 1997 15:20:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19971008152052.6821.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:20:52 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:20:52 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >And the rest will take care of itself, cream rising to the top, so to >speak! Peter knows the cards and he also knows how to play to the >cards. Ryan will learn how to play to the cards... Does playing to the cards result in the best possible performance? >One more thing, I am not saying that Ryan did not know the cards, >beacuse from what I gather reading this stuff-f-f-f-f, his second >round routine would have won the whole thing. The fact is that Ryan wouldn't have finished first or even second according to second round judging results. There lies the problem. Dan Kramer Intel Inside ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 17:00:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00829 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:00:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00825 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:59:59 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (822) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00820 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:59:59 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net ([12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14878 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:00:00 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ja073953 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:08:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Message-Id: <000000391732959174944@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 12:02:24 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Oct 8, 1997, 10:20:52 AM US CST Daniel Kramer wrote: >Does playing to the cards result in the best possible performance? The act of measuring alters that which is measured. If you are competing to win, you should tailor your performance to the judging system. That judging system is completely, totally arbitrary. No matter what criteria might be used for judging, competetive freestyle would change to fit that criteria. If you think that footbag's popularity and future depend on competition, get used to it. Don't think that subjectivity is absent in composition cards and add counting and such, either; it exists. Newer players have never been given the same level of attention or graded as enthusiastically as the veterans, and this includes composition judges watching for unique moves. What should you do? First, advocate random competition order. Seeded competition order is nothing more than a pre-announced and condoned form of bias for judges to use when evaluating competitors. Second, become a good judge yourself. Pay as much attention to someone you don't know as the world champions. Ask to judge what you think is important. I always ask to judge presentation, because that is what is important to me. In fact, I think the music & movement is the single most important component of freestyle. I don't care how many adds or drops they do. While I've proven myself to be an accurate composition judge, I would prefer not to do it, because it isn't that important to me. Third, apply to be on the IFAB. IFAB members can suggest, promote, and vote for changes. You might also pick up more background about why the 'rules' are the way they are. Fourth, if you don't like it, maybe you shouldn't compete. There are some very awesome freestylers out there that don't compete because they would rather do their own thing with freestyle than try to conform to judging criteria. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 18:39:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01710 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:39:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01706 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:39:15 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1703) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01701 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:39:14 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16846; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:39:16 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971008152052.6821.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:39:26 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:20 AM -0700 10/8/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >The fact is that Ryan wouldn't have finished first or even second >according to second round judging results. There lies the problem. First of all, I want to say a big huge DITTO to everything Derrick just wrote. I totally agreed with everything he said (except for his idea of random seeding, which I personally find ridiculous). Now, Dan, I have to correct you on this point... Ryan *did* finish 2nd in his pool (and Scott Davidson, who beat him that round, *did* hit an EXCELLENT routine with a tremendous amount of difficulty and choreography -- he could just as easily have won this entire tournament [see the results]). Ryan had a hard pool; and he did *amazingly* well for his first open Worlds competition. But as for whether or not Ryan beat the guys in the *other* pools, you simply cannot compare or attempt to compare results between pools. Since the second round was *not* the final round, Ryan wasn't competing against anyone but the other players in his pool. This is especially important to understand given that we had different judges for each pool of open players (since the open players judge each other). So the numbers simply don't compare, since they're all relative within a pool, and since the judges are different. The main reasons we hold the second round are: (1) to weed out all but the best players from going on to finals, and (2) to determine some relative ordering for the players going into finals. So whether or not you think Ryan beat everyone second round, that wasn't what was being measured, and you simply cannot attack the system for this. I'd recommend that you take some time with me or others to better understand the system, and *then* start helping improve it. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 19:12:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02183 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:12:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02178 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:12:33 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2175) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02173 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:12:32 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA17846 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:12:34 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id sa074066 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:21:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Message-Id: <000000392802959182943@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:15:43 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Oct 8, 1997, 1:39:26 PM US CST Steve Goldberg wrote: >wrote. I totally agreed with everything he said (except for his idea of >random seeding, which I personally find ridiculous). To Clarify: It is _not_ random seeding; it is random _competition order_. If you don't think competition order has any effect, then there is absolutely no harm in using random order, so why not? -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 19:35:14 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02343 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:34:50 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02339 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:34:48 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2336) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02334 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:34:47 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18450 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:34:49 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:35:46 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick wrote: >To Clarify: It is _not_ random seeding; it is random _competition order_. Fine. >If you don't think competition order has any effect, then there is absolutely >no harm in using random order, so why not? I didn't say I didn't believe competition order has any effect. On the contrary, I think "competition order" is the most important part of freestyle competition after "how well you execute". And I think, to the mast part, this is rightly so. (1) Judges are biased by nature (as you said a minute ago), and are accustomed to there being a relationship between seeding and playing order. When we've played with random competition order, the first players up have traditionally been screwed by the order.. Yes, this is changeable, but the culture is strongly biased (as you know), so why not play to the bias rather than deny it exists. Denial is our enemy. We should understand the natural bias (and there are SEVERAL good reasons for the bias based on order of competition), and admit it exists, and structure a system to be as fair as possible in light of such bias. Competitive freestyle is a subjective sport, judged by humans. (2) Most competitive formats have the concept of seeding relating to competition order (viz. footbag net). And for good reason: in general, in competition, you only have *one* chance to do well any given round. In other words, if you happen to spaunch one round, you're out. But "seeding" tries to make up for that -- it gives some intentional bias and benefit to the player(s) who have demonstrated in the past that they are likely to do very well in the event (and to put on a good show during finals, which is part of our goal, I think). Seeding itself helps balance the pools, but seeding-based competition order also gives the best players a slightly better chance of making it out of the pools in the case that they just plain bomb one round. (This is true in many, many sports.) It definitely puts a burden on the newer players, but I think this makes sense. The newer players, like Ryan, have to really impress people to make it to the next level. (And Ryan has, by the way, and will be seeded quite high at the next Worlds.) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 20:02:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02738 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:02:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02734 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:02:17 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2731) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02729 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:02:16 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA18951 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:02:18 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ya074098 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:11:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Message-Id: <000000393142959185925@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 15:05:25 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Oct 8, 1997, 2:35:46 PM US CST Steve Goldberg wrote: >contrary, I think "competition order" is the most important part of >freestyle competition after "how well you execute". And I think, to the >mast part, this is rightly so. Ryan's stats: Round 1: 3rd seed, 2nd place Round 2: 2nd seed, 2nd place Round 3: 5th seed, 5th place Other factors aside, I am simply trying to answer (in part) the question of 'why _didn't_ Ryan take a higher place?' And to offer a solution that would remove the possibility of that being a factor. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 20:15:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02871 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:15:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02866 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:15:31 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2863) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02861 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:15:30 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F105.hotmail.com [207.82.250.224]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19162 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:15:33 -0700 Received: (qmail 18145 invoked by uid 0); 8 Oct 1997 20:15:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19971008201533.18144.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:15:30 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:15:30 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I wrote: >>The fact is that Ryan wouldn't have finished first or even second >>according to second round judging results. There lies the problem. Then Steve Wrote: >Now, Dan, I have to correct you on this point... Ryan *did* finish >2nd in his pool (and Scott Davidson, who beat him that round, *did* >hit an EXCELLENT routine with a tremendous amount of difficulty and >choreography -- he could just as easily have won this entire >tournament [see the results]). Ryan had a hard pool; and he did >*amazingly* well for his first open Worlds competition. >But as for whether or not Ryan beat the guys in the *other* pools, >your simply cannot compare or attempt to compare results between >pools. Since the second round was *not* the final round, Ryan wasn't >competing against anyone but the other players in his pool. This is >especially important to understand given that we had different judges >for each pool of open players (since the open players judge each >other). So the numbers simply don't compare, since they're all >relative within a pool, and since the judges are different. I write: I agree that my argument had that fault. Presentation, being judged on different scales by different judges doesn't allow for comparison. But the component cards, add counts and add ratios (60% of total score) should be relatively constant between pools. Removing presentation scoring, which I have few problems with, let's see what happened in the second round: (1) Scott Davidson with 19.28 (2) Rick Reese with 18.71 and then (3) Ryan Mulroney with 18.45. I can't sit here and tell you that Ryan should've been ranked over Scott or Rick, simply because they all shred super-hard. But what I can say is that the cards along with add counts and add ratio provide disincentive for players to attempt some of the harder moves, namely all moves with more than one dexterity especially those that end in a toe delay (whether this example demonstrates it or not). Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 20:36:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03034 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:36:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03030 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:36:11 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3027) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03025 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:36:10 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19590; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:36:12 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971008201533.18144.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:33:55 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:15 PM -0700 10/8/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >I can't sit here and tell you that Ryan should've been ranked over Scott >or Rick, simply because they all shred super-hard. But what I can say >is that the cards along with add counts and add ratio provide >disincentive for players to attempt some of the harder moves, namely all >moves with more than one dexterity especially those that end in a toe >delay (whether this example demonstrates it or not). You seem to be arguing from very little data. Did you go back and count adds, contacts, and comp categories for each of the competitors to verify your hypothesis? Do you even have any idea what tricks Rippin' and Scott performed? Are you so sure that Rippin' and Scott didn't hit a comparable number of double-dexterity moves? There is nothing about the current system that clearly dissuades players from hitting harder moves. If a player *can* hit the moves, he will score better than a player who can't. I am completely unconvinced by what you've said so far. The players motivate each *other* to try harder tricks in competition. We don't need some formula to motivate people to play better, and nothing you've said has proven to me that the current system is a true detractor from good freestyle. It will happen naturally. In the last 5 years, I've watched the level of play in choreographed freestyle competition go *way* up, while the system has remained essentially the same. I'm happy with what I see. I am not in the least afraid that the quality of play won't continue to rise. >From my recollection, all three of the guys you mention hit very well, and had extremely difficult routines. But as I've said before and will say yet again, harping on individual results where they're "close enough" is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. We will *never* have a PERFECT system. Our system works pretty damn well and is the results of years of iterative refinement. The only really good thing we can do is throw it away altogether, and use basic ranking. But then, more than ever, will subjectivity be the big issue. We'll be right back where we started, and next year we'll be arguing over whether or not X or Y player was judged fairly for some *other* reason. Be happy that we even HAVE freestyle as part of the World Championships. Do your best to support it, to judge it, and to compete in it if you like. If you don't like, that's fine. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 20:36:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03068 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:36:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03064 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:36:22 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3061) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03059 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:36:22 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19594; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:36:15 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000393142959185925@mlerf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:37:16 -0700 To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents and change Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:05 PM -0700 10/8/97, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: >Round 1: 3rd seed, 2nd place >Round 2: 2nd seed, 2nd place >Round 3: 5th seed, 5th place > >Other factors aside, I am simply trying to answer (in part) the question of >'why _didn't_ Ryan take a higher place?' And to offer a solution that would >remove the possibility of that being a factor. Ryan did close to what he "should" have. He *definitely* did not do well his final round, and he knows it, and we all know it. So his 5th place ranking is perfectly fine, considering the amazing array of players he was up against who hit better than him. The only issue I can see is in the SECOND round, and whether or not Ryan should have won that round. But let's get off it! 1st, 2nd, what the hell? He did damn well, Scott did damn well, and that's that! But Derrick, as I just finished saying, there is no doubt in my mind that competition order plays a role in the judges' evaluations. So what exactly is your point? (On second thought, don't answer that. :-)) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 21:55:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03573 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:55:38 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03569 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:55:36 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3566) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03564 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:55:35 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA21087 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:55:34 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ma074190 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:04:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Message-Id: <000000406442959192716@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:58:36 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Oct 8, 1997, 3:15:30 PM US CST Daniel Kramer wrote: >the component cards, add counts and add ratios (60% of total score) >should be relatively constant between pools. Removing presentation >scoring, which I have few problems with, let's see what happened in the >second round: (1) Scott Davidson with 19.28 (2) Rick Reese with 18.71 >and then (3) Ryan Mulroney with 18.45 If you look at composition alone, Scott consistenly outscored Ryan by a point to a point and a half (if there's something to be bummed about, it is having to compete against the same player in both 1st and 2nd round!). Scott is the only one scoring in the 9.+ range in competition. He has incredible variety, and uses it in competition. Scott tailors his performace to the cards, making sure he has 30 delays, 20 of everything else, and 10 unusuals. OTOH, Pete is about the only one to consistenly score in the 9.+ range in Presentation. His ability to charm the judges can't be dissected, but you have to remember that he performs for a living! Ryan has a few things going for the future: a higher seed, notoriety - we'll all be watching next year!, and experience. If he chooses to tailor his performace to the judging system, watch out! -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 22:07:41 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03766 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:07:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA03762 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:07:36 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3759) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA03757 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:07:35 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F88.hotmail.com [207.82.250.194]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA21437 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:07:39 -0700 Received: (qmail 23515 invoked by uid 0); 8 Oct 1997 22:07:38 -0000 Message-ID: <19971008220738.23514.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 15:07:38 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 15:07:38 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >There is nothing about the current system that clearly dissuades >players from hitting harder moves. As far as the comp cards and add counts, the following remains true (presentation, as it is defined, should not be modified by the perceived difficulty of moves): atom smasher = 0.23 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .03 for the adds) flurry = 0.24 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .04 for the adds) around the world = 0.22 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .02 for the adds) butterfly = 0.33 pts (1 dex, 1 delay, 1 x-body + .03 for the adds) I challenge Steve to dispute these numbers. It's true that the difficulty in routines has skyrocketed in recent years. But that's only a testimony to the strength and will of our athletes - not to the validity of our system. Dan Kramer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 8 22:59:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04250 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:59:23 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04246 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:59:21 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4243) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04241 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:59:20 GMT Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23071; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:59:23 -0700 X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971008220738.23514.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:00:24 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:07 PM -0700 10/8/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >As far as the comp cards and add counts, the following remains true >(presentation, as it is defined, should not be modified by the perceived >difficulty of moves): > >atom smasher = 0.23 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .03 for the adds) >flurry = 0.24 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .04 for the adds) > >around the world = 0.22 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .02 for the adds) >butterfly = 0.33 pts (1 dex, 1 delay, 1 x-body + .03 for the > >adds) > >I challenge Steve to dispute these numbers. Thanks for the challenge. Okay, the numbers above are completely wrong. I told you before when you brought this up that you'd ignored the "add/contact" ratio and its impact on the difficulty score. Below is the correct tabulation of the same numbers, however, please note that they are not valid until all adds in the routine are taken into account (since the add/contact ratio is for the entire routine, not for a given trick). But assuming the routine only had on trick in it, and no drops, and no choreography, here're the same results: Using the formula: score = variety + difficulty + 0 (exec) + 0 (pres) difficulty = (adds X multiplier) + (adds / contacts) multiplier = 0.01 for singles, 0.0067 for doubles In a singles routine consisting only of the following: atom smasher = 3.23 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .03 adds + 3 add/contact) flurry = 4.24 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .04 adds + 4 add/contact) around the world = 2.22 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .02 adds + 2 add/contact) butterfly = 3.33 pts (1 dex, 1 delay, 1 x-body + .03 adds + 3 a/c) That said, everyone agrees and has agreed for a long time that "butterfly" is not as hard as "atom-smasher", but that they are the same add-value because we have to draw the line somewhere. Without reinventing the add system, I challenge you to come up with a simple fix to this that everyone will agree to. We've debated this issue ad nausem on this list in the last two years. You've just pointed out a very specific case, of which I'm sure there are several, but my point is still valid: as a rule, harder routines executed well usually win. And, as a rule, harder tricks will score the player higher when executed correctly, even if your opinion of "how much higher it should be" is different. In the above example, the players *are* credited for hitting harders moves, although I totally agree that double-dex moves are not counted as high as they should be. But hang on. I think now's a good time to stop, pull back, and examine what we're arguing about. I think we're arguing past each other because there are too many issues wrapped up in this one discussion. In this thread: (1) You started by saying Ryan's routine was underrated relative to the other players; and *that* is what I've been arguing isn't true. (2) Now you're saying that the "comp" cards, which measure "variety of tricks", are just plain wrong. That they count the number of unique add-categories a trick is involved with, which, given the flurry (no pun intended) of double- and triple-dexterity moves is no longer a very good representation of "variety". On the surface, I'd agree with your take on this. I still stick to my argument on topic (1) that nothing was "unfair" in Ryan's placings in this year's event, and the issues in (2) had little or *no* bearing on that result. Now, if you want to change the subject to (2), that's fine. I'd love to talk about this, constructively, and come up with a way to fix it. Here's my "2 cents": Take your Atom Smasher breakdown: >atom smasher = 0.23 pts (1 dex, 1 delay + .03 for the adds) You have a wierd way of looking at this. It reminds me of a statistician who plays around with the numbers til they turn out his way. Let's compare two routine consisting of the following moves: (1) atom smasher >> paradon >> ripwalk >> flurry (2) mirage >> butterfly >> paradox mirage >> around-the-world I picked these two on purpose: (1) has all four moves double-dexterities; (2) has no double-dexterities and all lower-add moves. Obviously, (1) should score a lot higher than (2) because it's a lot harder; let's see how they compare on the cards (again, I'm completely willing to ignore the drop and presentation scores): (1) atom smasher >> paradon >> ripwalk >> flurry adds = 4+3+4+4 = 15, contacts = 4 difficulty = 0.15 + 15/4 = 3.90 variety = dex unu del xbd bod atom smasher 1 1 paradon 1 1 1 ripwalk 1 1 1 flurry 1 1 = 0.1 x (4+4+2) = 1.00 TOTAL = difficulty + variety = 3.90 + 1.00 -----> = 4.90 (2) mirage >> butterfly >> paradox mirage >> around-the-world adds = 2+3+3+2 = 10, contacts = 4 difficulty = 0.10 + 10/4 = 2.60 variety = dex unu del xbd bod mirage 1 1 butterfly 1 1 1 pdx mirage 1 1 1 atw 1 1 = 0.1 x (4+4+1+1) = 1.00 TOTAL = difficulty + variety = 2.60 + 1.00 -----> = 3.60 A *significantly* lower number. >It's true that the difficulty in routines has skyrocketed in recent >years. But that's only a testimony to the strength and will of our >athletes - not to the validity of our system. As I implied previously, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 00:32:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05191 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:31:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05187 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:31:13 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5184) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05182 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:31:13 GMT Received: from baygate.bayarea.net (baygate.bayarea.net [204.71.212.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14095 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:31:17 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by baygate.bayarea.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25184 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:35:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19971008220738.23514.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:32:24 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I guess by the lack of response that either (a) nobody has had the time to read my long-winded rebuttal, or (b) I'm right. :-) But seriously, I did find a minor mistake in my calculations (as I figured would happen) although it actually was to my detriment; correcting it just bolsters my argument more... I mistakenly said "paradon" was a 3-add move; it's 4 (dex,dex,xbd,del). So the final totals in my last message should have been: String (1) score = 5.00 String (2) score = 3.60 Clearly the harder string wins; regardless of whatever inequity exists on the "comp" cards, since the add/contact ratio plays heavily in its favor. I should probably reiterate that these examples are not exactly great science because rarely is a routine so short and without "fluff". So obviously, the difference between the add/contact ratios of any given routines will be less pronounced. I also got wrapped up in the numbers (if you know me well, you know I actually *hate* numbers) and forgot the other thing I wanted to mention: ==> The "comp" cards measure "variety", not difficulty. If nobody gets anything else from this thread, I hope they understand the basic framework of the current system. It's just not that complicated at the surface: score = variety + difficulty + execution + presentation The issue I am totally open to is whether or not the currently system for computing the "variety" score is adequate, or even correct. --------- read this if you're interested in the "comp" cards: ---------- The real meat of Dan's question (I think) was that double- and triple-dexterity moves only get one "tick-mark" on the comp cards, and that this dissuades people from trying these types of moves. I think Dan raises a completely valid issue -- should the "comp" score be based on add categories, should it be a *simple* count of all unique tricks done in a routine, or should it be somewhere in between? The rationale behind the current "comp" system is this: The "composition" of a routine, i.e., the variety of tricks that compose the routine, should not just count how many unique tricks are done, but should in essence require the performer to hit a *variety* of tricks, i.e., tricks of different "types". How do we define "type"? Well, we currently do so by looking at which add-categories a trick falls into; a trick involving delays is a "delay-type" trick; a trick involving unusual surfaces is an "unusual surface" type trick; etc., for all 5 add categories. A trick can be of several types at once, so a player who hits a trick that has elements in several add categories will get a tenth of a point (in general) for each add category the trick falls into, UP TO A LIMIT based on the add-category. (That limit is currently 1.0 for unusual surfaces, 3.0 for delays, and 2.0 for everything else.) This kind of makes sense.. Imagine if a player only uses toes, and does all his/her tricks with his toes. Then obviously his routine doesn't have as much variety as a player who uses toes *and* cross-body moves. Further imagine that Mr. Toe only uses kicks; no delays. Whereas Mr. Variety can do toe delays, cross-body delays, and other crazy stuff. Using the add categories to determine variety is basically taking advantage of the basic analysis of move components, as it currently stands for the difficult system, to also determine "types" of moves. In the existing system, then, only giving 1 tick-mark for double-dexterity moves on the comp card is not really "punishment". Remember first that for each *unique* double-dexterity move, you get a tick-mark in the dexterity category (as well as in whatever other categories the move may involve). (Remember, if you do the same move several times in a row, you just get one tick-mark for the first one, and none for the rest.) Now, remember that the "comp" system is judging "variety" and not difficulty. If all you do is double-dexterity moves involving the toes, you'll come out worse in the "variety" part of the competition against someone who mixes it up -- doing double-dexterity moves *and* cross-body-flyers *and* so on. The issue is variety, not difficulty, when measuring composition! Oh, no, look what I've gone and done... I've written another book. Damn, sorry. I was just writing to clarify my previous message, and now look what I did.. Shoot. Sorry again. Bad Steve... Bad boy. Ah, what the hell, I'll throw in a smiley face and call it quits for now.. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 15:23:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00473 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:22:12 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00469 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:22:09 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (466) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00464 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:22:08 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F94.hotmail.com [207.82.250.200]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA22152 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:22:03 -0700 Received: (qmail 13790 invoked by uid 0); 10 Oct 1997 15:22:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19971010152202.13789.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:22:02 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:22:02 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I still stick to my argument on topic (1) that nothing was "unfair" >in Ryan's placings in this year's event,... I was trying to use Ryan's placement for the finals only as a starting point for a comp card/difficulty debate. I'd rather not go back to the Ryan issue as it's debatability is limited. Let's continue. >Let's compare two routines consisting of the following moves: >(1) atom smasher >> paradon >> ripwalk >> flurry > > TOTAL = difficulty + variety > = 3.90 + 1.00 >-----> = 4.90 > >(2) mirage >> butterfly >> paradox mirage >> around-the-world > > TOTAL = difficulty + variety > = 2.60 + 1.00 >-----> = 3.60 > Talk about a statistician who moves around numbers to say what they want...Jheeesh! Adding on the add/ratio result in the vacuum of only a 4 move string gives add/ratio too much weight, skewing the results. Let's make a more realistic comparison: 2 competitors have the exact routine up to the last 10 seconds. Up to this point, each has 140 adds/60 contacts (2.33 add ratio) Player (1) decides he will go for the gusto and try atom smasher, paradon, ripwalk, and flurry. Player (2) decides he will go for the safer route and go for osis, butterfly, paradox mirage, and around the world. If each hits all of the moves mentioned, the rusults are: (1)155 adds/64 contacts = 2.42 add/contact ratio (2)151 adds/64 contacts = 2.36 add/contact ratio The tenths that are given for moves on the comp cards are constant for the entire routine, while the extra points in add/contact ratio for harder moves becomes less and less significant as the routine is completed. Only 0.06 difference! In total player (1) would receive: atom smasher .23(.1 dex, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) paradon .34(.1 dex, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .04 for the adds) ripwalk .34(.1 dex, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .04 for the adds) flurry .24(.1 dex, .1 delay, .04 for the adds) total of 1.15 + 0.06(add/contact ratio bonus) = ***1.21*** Player (2): osis .33(.1 body, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) butterfly .33(.1 dex, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) paradox mirage .33(.1 dex, .1 body, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) around the world .22(.1 dex, .1 delay, .02 for the adds) total of ***1.21*** End result: a tie!!!! Ripley wouldn't believe this one. >As I implied previously, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. > > Steve It's broke. To be continued... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 18:23:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01765 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:23:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01760 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:23:16 GMT From: freefloe@continet.com Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1757) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01755 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:23:15 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24848 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:23:15 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.66]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAA162 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:21:51 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] difficulty/variety debate Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:21:51 -0700 Message-ID: <19971010182150123.AAA162@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Daniel Kramer wrote: But what I can say is that the cards along with add counts and add ratio provide disincentive for players to attempt some of the harder moves, namely all moves with more than one dexterity especially those that end in a toe delay Steve G.. wrote: >There is nothing about the current system that clearly dissuades >players from hitting harder moves. I think that it's important to note that difficulty is also measured on the presentation card; in the linking and distribution category. You can earn 2 points in this area. So, if I judge a routine that is linked with easier moves they would get a lower score here than someone who linked harder moves (assuming their linking was similar in percentage of their routine). The distribution part can lower someone's score here, however, if they do not cover the composition cards (delay, dex, crossbody, body, unusual) peas, becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 19:39:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02320 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:38:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02316 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:38:52 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2313) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02311 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:38:51 GMT Received: from baygate.bayarea.net (baygate.bayarea.net [204.71.212.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26013 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:38:53 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) by baygate.bayarea.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04757; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:42:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971010152202.13789.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:39:53 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:22 AM -0700 10/10/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >I was trying to use Ryan's placement for the finals only as a starting >point for a comp card/difficulty debate. I'd rather not go back to the >Ryan issue as it's debatability is limited. Let's continue. But it's a bad starting point based on a false assumption. First of all, you never answered my question -- are you so sure Ryan did harder moves than the other guys in question? Is there really any basis for this argument!? I think you might be unnecessarily "raking the muck" in an anotherwise positive atmosphere. If you want to discuss the math behind the judging system, I'm all ears, but let's do so in a way that doesn't rake any of the players over the coals. (So far, if I were Scott Davidson or Eric Wulff or Peter Irish, I'd be taking some serious offense right about now.) It's just bad medicine to use this example as a starting point for debating the system. This year's Worlds was amazing, and the top players all deserved their placings, and nobody (else) has disputed them. By the way, Dan, have you even seen each of the routines you're comparing to Ryan's? Just curious. (Not an accusation.) I tried to scan in all the finals routines and selected semifinals routines and put them up on the web but damn it takes forever and I just haven't had time. The files are ending up about 16MB per file; if people are willing to download them I'll put them up at some point. I can't make them much smaller without losing the footbag. >Talk about a statistician who moves around numbers to say what they >want...Jheeesh! But unlike your earlier message, I stated my assumptions and clearly articulated that the numbers weren't accurate outside the vacuum. If I recall, your original set of numbers were completely wrong because you intentionally left out a relevant part of the math and failed to mention why. I'm glad at least you took the time to do it better in this last message. (But the thanks I get for setting you straight and for clearly admitting that my numbers were also not valid is for you to pounce down my throat for those very reasons?!) :-) >Adding on the add/ratio result in the vacuum of only a 4 >move string gives add/ratio too much weight, skewing the results. Wait -- that's what *I* said. Don't attack me with my own arguments. You'd get a lot farther if, in your rhetoric, you tried to work *with* me to figure out how to resolve the system, instead of just refuting everything I say. I am telling you I am interested in reexamining the variety scoring system. Let's do it in a constructive manner. >2 competitors have the exact routine up to the last 10 seconds. Up to >this point, each has 140 adds/60 contacts (2.33 add ratio) Good -- I like this as a starting point. But you have to be very very clear that to have 140 adds and 60 contacts, this player has done a *lot* of tricks up until this point. (On average, finals routines in open singles at Worlds top out at between 180 and 220 adds.) So we're talking about 10 seconds of a 2-minute routine,and we're talking about two players who, up until now, did *exactly the same* level of difficulty (i.e., for the bulk of their routine). So this last ten seconds is the only discriminator in the example, so far. (If the routine is 2 minutes, and this stuff takes ten seconds, then the difficulty score shouldn't count for more then about 1/12 of the total difficulty score.. Let's keep that in mind.) >Player (1) decides he will go for the gusto and try atom smasher, >paradon, ripwalk, and flurry. >Player (2) decides he will go for the safer route and go for osis, >butterfly, paradox mirage, and around the world. Okay, I'm with you. >If each hits all of the moves mentioned, the rusults are: >(1)155 adds/64 contacts = 2.42 add/contact ratio >(2)151 adds/64 contacts = 2.36 add/contact ratio Yep. But let's all realize that this is only a very small string of tricks in what's now a much larger routine; so the relative significance of this string should not be overstated. Okay.. that said.. >The tenths that are given for moves on the comp cards are constant for >the entire routine, while the extra points in add/contact ratio for >harder moves becomes less and less significant as the routine is >completed. Only 0.06 difference! Wait, now I'm a little confused as to your point. First, I don't get why you think that 0.06 is too small of a difference. It's statistically significant, and is large in the realm of the total score (see the end). This is a long routine. If both players are identical up until now (in the difficulty realm), then this is not particularly unexpected. Second, you say "..moves on the comp cards are constant for the entire routine". Actually, *this* is the crux of the issue! They are *not* constant, as we will see below when I redo your math for you! (You may still be missing this subtlety in the concepts of "variety" versus "difficulty".) >In total player (1) would receive: >atom smasher .23(.1 dex, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) >paradon .34(.1 dex, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .04 for the adds) >ripwalk .34(.1 dex, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .04 for the adds) >flurry .24(.1 dex, .1 delay, .04 for the adds) > >total of 1.15 + 0.06(add/contact ratio bonus) = >***1.21*** I think it would help to stop using this format where you are mixing "difficulty" with "variety"; it only muddies the waters and makes it harder to see clearly the issue at the foundation. If we're going to fix the system, we have to understand it and clearly articulate each component of a computation. So, Dan, I'm going to make your point for you so we can get to the real discussion of whether or not the system is wrong and, if so, how to fix it (the real goal). Please bear with me: [If you're not mathematically inclined, and don't want to step through the reasonings below, skip to the "** **"s for the executive summary.] Here is a clearer computation of the effect you're trying to show, using all of your data. But instead of just showing the results for the segment, I'm going to compute the result for both *entire* routines, where the only difference is in the last 10 seconds... player 1 hits the moves listed above, and player 2 hits the moves listed below. (Note that I take you through every calculation, not skipping any steps or assumptions): SCORE = DIFFICULTY + VARIETY + EXECUTION + PRESENTATION DIFFICULTY = ADDS x 0.01 + ADDS/CONTACTS Assuming PRESENTATION=0, EXECUTION=0, adds up to now=140, and contacts up to now=60: ADDS(1) = 140 + 15 = 155 CONTACTS(1) = 60 + 4 = 64 DIFFICULTY(1) = 1.55 + 155/64 = 3.9719 For the VARIETY score, let's say they did exactly the same tricks across the board up until just before this string, so they now have equal variety scores; and for simplicity's sake, let's assume they haven't maxed out any of the cards (this assumption shouldn't affect the results in either direction, since it's applied equally to both). An arbitrary "variety" score, which is the sum of tick-marks of each add-category trick performed by both players up until now, is 3.5 (so they've done 35 unique moves each up until this point). So, given: variety up to now = 3.5 VARIETY(1) = 3.5 + 1.0 = 4.5 Then: SCORE(1) = DIFFICULTY(1) + VARIETY(1) = 3.9719 + 4.5 = 8.4719 Then you wrote: >Player (2): >osis .33(.1 body, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) >butterfly .33(.1 dex, .1 xbody, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) >paradox mirage .33(.1 dex, .1 body, .1 delay, .03 for the adds) >around the world .22(.1 dex, .1 delay, .02 for the adds) Okay, for this guy: new adds = 11, new contacts = 4, new variety = 1.1 ADDS(2) = 140 + 11 = 151 CONTACTS(2) = 60 + 4 = 64 DIFFICULTY(2) = 1.51 + 151/64 = 3.8694 ** lower score than DIFFICULTY(1) ** VARIETY(2) = 3.5 + 1.1 = 4.6 ** higher score than VARIETY(1)!! ** SCORE(2) = DIFFICULTY(2) + VARIETY(2) = 3.8694 + 4.6 = 8.4694 ** ** ** ** Skip to here for the executive summary: ** ** ** ** The result, as Dan tried to say, is: SCORE(1) SCORE(2) 8.47 8.47 (after rounding) These two scores are identical, plus or minus round-off. (The fact is, without round-off, player 1 wins by 2/1000ths of a point). Now, we can look back at my numbers above and see why. Clearly, player 1 got a significantly higher DIFFICULTY score than player 2, which he should have. I say "significantly" because, even though it is small, it is not that small relative to the total difficulty of the routine. REMEMBER: these guys had identical difficulty except for the last string of 4 tricks. And those tricks were, on average, only one add harder. Remember that. It is a significant point. Now, player 2 had a slightly (significantly?) higher VARIETY score than player 1, but for seemingly no reason. This is what I believe to be the ENTIRE point of Dan's argument, and what I've been saying all along I am totally willing to look at. But let's not crack that open quite yet. I know Dan's interested in exposing this particular issue, so we will get to it. But what's *especially* strange is that this *minor* difference in VARIETY is given MORE WEIGHT in the formula than a relatively *large* difference in DIFFICULTY. Now, before we try to address how to fix this, if it's in fact a problem, I'll stop here and let everyone digest this. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 21:04:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03040 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:03:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03036 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:03:49 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3033) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03031 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:03:48 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F102.hotmail.com [207.82.250.221]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27355 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:03:50 -0700 Received: (qmail 9439 invoked by uid 0); 10 Oct 1997 21:04:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19971010210407.9437.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:04:06 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:04:06 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >But it's a bad starting point based on a false assumption. First of >all, you never answered my question -- are you so sure Ryan did >harder moves than the other guys in question? Is there really any >basis for this argument!? After finding out the results from round 2 seeing that Ryan was ranked down on the list, my gut feeling was that he, a bit moreso than other players, was hurt by certain faults in the comp cards and difficulty category. Many thought it was the best routine of the tournament and he wasn't ranked at the top. That's why I thought it was a reasonable place to start. You disagree. To answer your question, I don't know exactly who performed the "harder" moves nor would I want to research it. The disadvantage Ryan may have received only resulted in a few tenths off where he should've been. That probably wouldn't have put him ahead of Scott or Rick, but the problem could arise in the future where it COULD make a difference in the standings. >(So far, if I were Scott Davidson or Eric Wulff or Peter Irish, I'd >be taking some serious offense right about now.) It's just bad >medicine to use this example as a starting point for debating the >system. I don't think any of them were too hurt. If any of them did take offense at anything I've written, I hope they understand that my goal was to point out an inadequacy in the judging system, and nothing more. Apologies to anyone I've offended. >By the way, Dan, have you even seen each of the routines you're >comparing to Ryan's? Just curious. (Not an accusation.) Yes. Your question wasn't an accusation, but it's still offensive. Do you think I would be writing all this stuff if I didn't see it? In past writings, you've told me that before I continue debating, I should take the time and ACTUALLY learn the judging rules. You've insinuated that my intention is to "kill off the sport of footbag as we know it." And now you say that I might be PERSONALLY offending many players with my letters. Rosemary's baby wasn't named Daniel. >But what's *especially* strange is that this *minor* difference in >VARIETY is given MORE WEIGHT in the formula than a relatively *large* >difference in DIFFICULTY. Now that you agree there's a problem, what's to be done? What's your opinion? We'd like to know. DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 22:34:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04184 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:34:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04169 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:34:23 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4166) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04164 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:34:22 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28664 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:34:24 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.90] (d80.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.80]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA26938; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:30:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:40:14 -0700 To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF), freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derrick and Freestylers! >If you look at composition alone, Scott consistenly outscored Ryan by a point >to a point and a half (if there's something to be bummed about, it is having >to compete against the same player in both 1st and 2nd round!). Scott is the >only one scoring in the 9.+ range in competition. He has incredible variety, >and uses it in competition. Scott tailors his performace to the cards, making >sure he has 30 delays, 20 of everything else, and 10 unusuals. Thanks to Derrick who wrote so positively about my game. First off, after reviewing my finals performance on video, I found that I am the luckiest person alive to have placed 2nd. I believe I should have taken somewhere between 5th and 8th, but maybe I am just seeing all the little things that only I would see. So (live music or not), I had top seed advantage at worlds, and I blew it. Sure my back hurt that morning, but excuses aside, I played my best for that moment, and I lucked into 2nd position. I am *very* lucky for this, and I recognize this. Second, I must correct Derrick on how he see's me "tailoring" my performance... blah, blah, blah. Certainly, I am aware of what the comp requirements are, and I do my best to fulfill them. Also, though often overlooked, I have been influenced by Derrick's love for M&M especially this last two years. I go to about 10 FB events annually, and I have not used the same song at any two events... EVER! To me, Derrick's differentiation between a "Routine" and a "Performance" is tantamount. It has shaped my game forever. One thing you will see in my performances, is that there is a pretty good balance on the Comp cards, this is for no other reason than I have trained myself to put "Segments" into my performance. "Segments" of Unusuals, "Segments" of Fliers, "Segments" of Spinning moves. I use segments to ensure that I fulfill the cards, but they are by no means choreographed down to the microsecond. I use the ebb and flow of the bag, my knowledge of the music and of my abilities to concoct a performance that is well rounded in terms of compositon, and hopefully well received by the (sometimes mysterious) Presentation judges. >OTOH, Pete is about the only one to consistenly score in the 9.+ range in >Presentation. His ability to charm the judges can't be dissected, but you have >to remember that he performs for a living! I wish I had just 1% of Peter's personality on-stage. That is really a talent that is hard to learn. You either have it or you don't. (That isn't stopping me from studying, though). Peter RULZ! See ya! Scott Davidson (Oh, we will be in Austin, TX for the "El Nino Open" this weekend) :-) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 22:34:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04183 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:34:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04178 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:34:24 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4175) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04173 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:34:24 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28666 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:34:25 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.90] (d80.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.80]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA26946 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:30:11 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:40:17 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] Quantification of Presentation Cards Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! I move that we seriously consider "Quantifying" the Presentation cards. Presentation judges are seriously overburdened in competion. THEY are the reason for alternating pools (and slow judging in general), because Presentation judges take sooooooo long to make up their minds (and they have too much to make up their minds about). This overburdening is unnecessary. Break them down from having each judge give a possible 10 points, to putting 1 judge on each of the 5 categories and having each person give up to 2.0 for their respective categories. NO TALKING amongst judges, and NO mandatory "Ranges" for scores. (This is something I would like to see *anyway*) Take each of the 5 subdivisions of the P card and spell out exactly what they are looking for. For instance, the "Floor, Planes and Travel" category should really be either: Floor and Planes or Planes and Travel (Because "Floor" and "travel" mean the same thing) Then, instead of giving the judge any lee way, we make it completely objective. i.e. 1 point for "Floor" and 1 point for "Planes" If the player uses 100% of the available floor, then they get a 1.0 If they use 50% of the available floor, they get a 0.5 and If the player uses all three planes exquisetly, then they get a 1.0. If they do all low moves and no medium or high, they get a .3 or .4. Combine the two to get a score, and the judge isn't overburdened. Very possible to do this for each category. I don't know why everyone resists this concept, it is soooooooo simple. BTW, can anyone define "Personality and Originality" (and I don't mean "what does it say in the rulebook", I mean we need a new definition! (Finally, a thread that *can't* contain Job's notation) :-) So anyway, See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 10 22:54:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04300 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:54:25 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04296 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:54:25 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4293) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04291 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:54:24 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28939 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:54:27 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04288; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:54:20 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971010210407.9437.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:54:51 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:04 PM -0700 10/10/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >After finding out the results from round 2 seeing that Ryan was ranked >down on the list, my gut feeling was that he, a bit moreso than other >players, was hurt by certain faults in the comp cards and difficulty >category. Your gut feeling was not substantiated by the evidence. There was nothing apparently incorrect about the open singles results at this year's Worlds, from round 2 or round 3. If you really think there was something wrong, then bring forward specific evidence. So far you have just waved your hands about this. That said, remember, I'm not disputing there could be something wrong with the judging system -- it's definitely prone to errors. And *I* certainly didn't invent it (and have barely influenced it) so I certainly have no pride in it nor a stake in it -- but I understand it very well. I want to go about evaluating possible problems/solutions in a careful and deliberate fashion, not based on "gut feelings" in reaction to specific events. What I meant was that you shouldn't imply, without looking at the data, that Ryan didn't get a fair shake. It's just inflammatory and serves no useful purpose unless backed up by facts. >Many thought it was the best routine of the tournament and he >wasn't ranked at the top. He was VERY close to the top. He was ranked 2nd in his pool. But as I explained before and don't know how many more times I have to say it before it sinks in: the SECOND ROUND is NOT the FINAL ROUND. You CANNOT compare players' placings across pools. That's why we have seeding, pools, and multiple rounds. If you want to complain about anything that went wrong for Ryan at Worlds, complain about the fact that he got in the same pool with Scott Davidson. :-) Scott kicked butt on the comp cards, definitely did more variety than Ryan, in my opinion, and beat him in adds/contact flat out. So difficulty, schmifficulty... The areas Ryan scored higher than Scott in round 2 were PRESENTATION and EXECUTION, the two areas we've specifically blown off in this discussion! >That's why I thought it was a reasonable place >to start. You disagree. I disagree because I don't think it has any bearing on the issue you want to debate. So let's debate that issue without referring to that specific round at Worlds, okay? There is no reason to say that Ryan didn't win because of these issues unless you've actually examined the routines and concluded this for fact. It's a red herring and it's potentially inflammatory -- that's all I'm saying. >Yes. Your question wasn't an accusation, but it's still offensive. Do >you think I would be writing all this stuff if I didn't see it? In past >writings, you've told me that before I continue debating, I should take >the time and ACTUALLY learn the judging rules. You clearly weren't using the correct formulas in your arguments, and by correcting you I'm also educating the others on this list who care to read my drivel. :-) I'm perfectly entitled to point out where I think you don't understand the system. I'm an expert on it, have been actively involved in its implementation for the last 10 years, and have a lot of experience with it. There is nothing wrong with me correcting your misinterpretations. I have definitely tried to do so in an even-handed manner (go re-read my messages if you can stomach it) and I've gone far beyond the call of duty by writing detailed explanations of this stuff for the rest of the readers. Don't bag on me for that (pun intended, Josh). You seem to keep wanting to pick fights with me instead of working with me to elucidate the real issues you have. >You've insinuated that my >intention is to "kill off the sport of footbag as we know it." How am I supposed to respond to that? Of course I have made no such insinuation. I think we should discuss this in private e-mail if you want to continue along this vain -- most people do not want to read our personal flame war. But I think there's value in an open discussion of the technical issues in question if we can stick to them. >And now >you say that I might be PERSONALLY offending many players with my >letters. Rosemary's baby wasn't named Daniel. You are evil incarnate. :-) >>But what's *especially* strange is that this *minor* difference in >>VARIETY is given MORE WEIGHT in the formula than a relatively *large* >>difference in DIFFICULTY. > >Now that you agree there's a problem, what's to be done? I have always agreed there was a problem. But it's not clear it's the same problem you think it is. This is why I have wanted to clearly separate the two issues: (1) Is the "variety" scoring system, based on add categories, the right way to compare the "composition" of a routine? (2) Are the relative weights of "difficulty", "variety", "execution", and "presentation" right? We have to take these two issues separately or we will never get anywhere. >What's your opinion? We'd like to know. Really? -- My feeling for (1) is that the current way of tabulating variety is completely wrong. I am not sure at all how to fix it. I don't think adding up which add categories a trick falls into is the correct formula. The double- and triple-dexterity disparity is only a small part of the problem and is commonly misunderstood. It's not that someone doing a double-dex move should get two tick-marks, it's that by doing a move that *doesn't* double a particular category, you shouldn't get an extra tick-mark over one that does! (There are double-body moves, for example, that also only get one tick-mark on the comp cards.) A butterfly (which is a particular type of move -- let's call it a "single-dexterity-cross-body-stalling-move") counts as *3* unique types of move, whereas double switch-over -- which is a "double-dexterity-stalling-move" counts as only *2* unique types of move!) It's just the wrong way to compute variety, plain and simple. But what *is* a good way? Can we possibly fix the current system to better categorize tricks? The answer lies somewhere in not adding up the add-categories, but I don't know what the formula really is. However, note that on (1), the fact that most top players MAX OUT several of the cards, the actual effect of the comp card is generally not such a huge discriminator in the open singles finals. So this is why I'm not entirely keen on perfecting what's otherwise a reasonable foundation for categorizing moves. -- My feeling for (2) is that, for *this* particular event (generic freestyle competition), we want these ratios to stay pretty much as they are. In other words, we want to promote good presentation, good execution, good variety, *and* good difficulty all at the same. We want everyone to perform routines like Peter Irish and Eric Wulff, two of the absolute best all-around freestyle performers who almost always show wonderul choreography, a high level of difficulty, flawless execution, and unparalleled variety of tricks, at every event they enter. If we are considering changing the relative weight of "difficulty" (again, on issue (2)), then we should really think about creating a NEW system, like Scott's proposed diving clone, and rename this one the "all-around round". Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 11 06:23:21 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA07408 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:23:07 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA07404 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:23:03 GMT Received: from fishboy@sttl.uswest.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7401) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA07399 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:23:00 GMT Received: from sttl1.sttl.uswest.net (sttl1.sttl.uswest.net [206.81.192.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02497 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:23:06 -0700 Received: from bob (dial155.sttl.uswest.net [207.109.86.155]) by sttl1.sttl.uswest.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA19479 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343F1C4C.93F33AA7@sttl.uswest.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:27:24 -0700 From: Rick Weber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle footbag Subject: [freestyle] got any tips? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello everyone. I'm sorta new to this list and I still suck at freestyle footbag. I was just wondering if any of you more experienced players could answer a couple of questions for me. 1.) When doing an around the world is the foot supposed to circle the footbag over and under or is it supposed to revolve around it? 2.) Is there any special tricks or methods to learning the osis stall, or should I just keep trying? And how long did it take you to get this move down pretty solid? Thanks in advance if you have any advice. Rick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 11 15:59:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00374 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:58:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00370 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:58:53 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (367) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00365 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:58:52 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F81.hotmail.com [207.82.250.187]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA06048 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:58:53 -0700 Received: (qmail 15136 invoked by uid 0); 11 Oct 1997 15:58:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19971011155852.15135.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.196.104.38 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:58:52 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.196.104.38] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org, fishboy@sttl.uswest.net Subject: [freestyle] Re: freestyle tips? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:58:52 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Rick! >1.) When doing an around the world is the foot supposed to circle the >footbag over and under or is it supposed to revolve around it? Your foot is supposed to revolve around it. It might seem tricky at first, but see if you can point your toe downward as you circle the bag. After you get the hang of that, it will make life much easier when you try double around-the-world. Don't try to throw your leg around the bag after you set, just wait a moment for the bag to get completely away from your foot. Then start the circling motion. >2.) Is there any special tricks or methods to learning the osis stall, >or should I just keep trying? And how long did it take you to get this >move down pretty solid? It took awhile to get it really the way I wanted it, and the left is still coming along. Osis is sorta tricky. One good way to picture it is thinking of it as a behind-the-back clipper stall, so working on your clippers *really* helps your osis. Many folk try to push the bag out from behind them, or around their bodies, but theoretically, the bag (and your stalling foot) should only be going straight up and down. Persistence is the real key, so don't give up. Seeya! JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 11 17:34:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00848 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:34:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00844 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:34:28 GMT Received: from brc@ameritech.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (841) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00839 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:34:27 GMT Received: from mailhost.chicago.il.ameritech.net (mpdr0.chicago.il.ameritech.net [206.141.192.243]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07067 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:34:27 -0700 Received: from 206.141.214.142 (dyn-max14-142.chicago.il.ameritech.net [206.141.214.142]) by mailhost.chicago.il.ameritech.net (8.8.3/8.8.3-AIMS) with SMTP id MAA14540 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:34:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710111734.MAA14540@mailhost.chicago.il.ameritech.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail & News for Macintosh - 3.0c (405) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:35:20 -0500 Subject: [freestyle] Key moves From: Brian Carstensen To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello all. I'm like really new new to freestyle. I've mostly been using inside, outside, and toe kicks to keep the thing in the air. I'd like to learn freestyle. Are there any important moves I should get down before trying to do anything too hard? Thanks a ton, - Brian From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 11 17:57:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00934 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:57:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA00930 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:57:29 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (927) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00925 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:57:29 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07466 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:57:30 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00922; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:57:26 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710111734.MAA14540@mailhost.chicago.il.ameritech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:58:26 -0700 To: Brian Carstensen From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Key moves Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:35 AM -0700 10/11/97, Brian Carstensen wrote: >Hello all. I'm like really new new to freestyle. I've mostly been using >inside, outside, and toe kicks to keep the thing in the air. I'd like to >learn freestyle. Are there any important moves I should get down before >trying to do anything too hard? The fundamental kicks (which it sounds like you've pretty much mastered) are Step 1. Step 2 is the basic delays (stalls) -- toe delay, inside delay, and switching feet back and forth -- and flying kicks (like flying clippers aka "jesters"). Before you move on to step 3, you should *really* have mastered both side toe and inside delays, and you should be able to go back and forth with them (i.e., left toe delay directly into right toe delay, directly into left...). The key to this level is the "magic hop", which is where you actually spring off your support slightly (you really leave the ground, but only very slightly), timing the *landing* of that hop exactly with the delay on the other foot. This is a key to the sport that applies to every move but is not at all natural. So if you don't know what I mean, follow up directly with me. Maybe I'll put together an on-line video-based tutorial of the magic hop. :-) It's something you really need to see to understand, but it's ultra important. It helps with your rhythm, balance, body positioning, and shock absorption for delays. Step 3 is the basic moves -- 2-add moves to start with. Step 4 is the hard moves (3-adds and above). There are several ways to reach this destination: (1) Play regularly with members of a footbag club near you where they already know a lot of the moves; most advanced players are happy to teach what they know, and since we do it all the time we can tell you exactly what you need to do differently to get a particular trick or basic move down. You can find out about footbag clubs by going to http://www.footbag.org/clubs/ -- if you don't see a club in your area, write me directly and remind me where you live. (2) Get the video: TRICKS OF THE TRADE, by the inventor of most of the tricks, Kenny Shults. This video is still the absolute best introduction to the game for new players and takes you all the way through some of the hardest moves in the sport. It's a little dry, but it's absolutely worth the $20 or so. Get it via mail-order from the World Footbag Association by calling 800-878-8797 or by using their website to order it online with a credit card, http://worldfootbag.com (3) See the online FAQ (Frequently-Asked Questions) for more references to more information: http://www.footbag.org/faq/ Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 11 19:44:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01495 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:44:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA01491 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:44:45 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1488) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA01486 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:44:45 GMT Received: from orion.sfsu.edu (orion.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.236]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08764 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:44:46 -0700 Received: from station10.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-210.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.210]) by orion.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12223 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971011124010.0069216c@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:40:10 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] There Should be more people in the finals! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At Worlds, there is simply way too many good freestylers who are getting cut from finals that shouldn't be. Before, the finals usually consisted of 4 or 5 top freestylers and a few others who weren't as good making up a total of 8. The level of play was lower then and not that many people were able to do the really hard tricks. Now, everyone and there uncle can hit these super hard tricks and still have good presentation. The times are changing and I think we should chance with it. I propose changing the number of people making it to the finals from 8 to 12. Instead of having only 2 people making it from a pool of 6 there should be 3 out of 6. I'm sure you will find that the usual 8 finalists will agree that the cut is too harsh. It's also not hard to change the format. Just add an extra person from a pool. I personally like the challenge of trying top make the top 8 but when people like Noah who nailed a awesome 1 drop routine and daryl who did a great routine himself shouldn't be cut form an old rule. It's time for your comments. 2 huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 11 20:17:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01695 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:17:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01691 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:17:07 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1688) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA01686 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:17:06 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F81.hotmail.com [207.82.250.187]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09182 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:17:07 -0700 Received: (qmail 3994 invoked by uid 0); 11 Oct 1997 20:17:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19971011201707.3993.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.196.104.220 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:17:06 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.196.104.220] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: More people in the finals! Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:17:06 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:40:10 -0700 >At Worlds, there is simply way too many good freestylers who are getting cut >from finals that shouldn't be. Yeah, like ME! ; ! >Now, everyone and there uncle can hit these super hard tricks and still have >good presentation. My Uncle came and watched and had no idea how we could do an osis while staying on our feet. But everyone and their GRANDMOTHER is a different story altogether. > >I propose changing the number of people making it to the finals from 8 to 12. >I personally like the challenge of trying top make the top 8 but when >people like Noah >who nailed a awesome 1 drop routine and daryl who did a great routine >himself shouldn't be cut form an old rule. It's time for your comments. > I agree with the large one. If competitive freestyle is going to stay the way I think it was meant to be, which is not only a matter of cutting the chaff from the wheat, but a showcasing of the folks who have put the most work into their game and routines then more folks should be in the finals. The only problem I could see arising from this is the time it would take to run twelve singles routines. Those things always run ate as is, and as much as I love judging, making me sit there and count contacts or whatever for half again as long would be an even more serious commitment on my part, which I'm personally willing to do (because we know I'm not making finals just yet), but then there are the folks who are judging who have to compete directly afterward and need to warm up, hit the bathrooms and throw up,etc, etc. JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 12 00:26:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03052 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:26:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03048 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:26:41 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3045) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03043 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:26:41 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11673 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:26:45 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03040 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:26:40 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971011124010.0069216c@sfsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:26:05 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] More people in the finals! Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:40 PM -0700 10/11/97, Tu Vu wrote: >I propose changing the number of people making it to the finals from 8 to 12. Interesting idea, but the problem has always been **pool size** for the judges. Especially presentation judges; it's very hard to rank 12 people -- it's hard enough to rank 8. I don't know if you remember, Tu, how the Intermediate finals went at worlds this year.. There were 12 finalists, and it was really hard for the presentation judges to rank folks. I personally though the intermediate singles finals were a big joke (uh-oh, don't want to start any more controversies), and it was mostly due to the unwieldy size of the final pool. Yes, I thought Mikka probably should have won, but there were a few others who were ranked way down on the list of 12 who should have at least been top 5. I think part of this was the presentation judges being overloaded with 12 competitors. I think a more palatable scheme would be to have *2* pools in the finals, judged by two separate pools of judges, and have all scores be cumulative (from the beginning of the event through the finals). Then you could compare (total ranks) across pools and all rounds. Just a thought. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 12 01:49:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA03404 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:49:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA03400 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:49:53 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3397) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA03395 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:49:52 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F14.hotmail.com [207.82.250.25]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12587 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:49:57 -0700 Received: (qmail 22013 invoked by uid 0); 12 Oct 1997 01:49:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19971012014957.22012.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.183.204.115 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:49:55 PDT X-Originating-IP: [199.183.204.115] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] More people in the finals! Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:49:55 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >At 12:40 PM -0700 10/11/97, Tu Vu wrote: >>I propose changing the number of people making it to the finals from 8 to 12. >Then Stevie G said: >I don't know if you remember, Tu, how the Intermediate finals went at >worlds this year.. There were 12 finalists, and it was really hard for the >presentation judges to rank folks. I personally thought the intermediate >singles finals were a big joke > And so this congealed from the depths: You bet! I would have *loved* another opportunity to show my incredible Origami-like mastery of folding! >I think a more palatable scheme would be to have *2* pools in the finals, >judged by two separate pools of judges, and have all scores be cumulative >(from the beginning of the event through the finals). Then you could >compare (total ranks) across pools and all rounds. Didn't you say something earlier about not being able to compare pools because there are different people judging, thereby making all scores relative only to each other? And even if you are only comparing ranks (did I just pull a JaneJones and answer my own question?) Then you'd still need to hold another round unless you want two first place winners, two seconds, two thirds, etc. The other possibility would be to just play all day long and forget the whole final round competition and just have 'singles exhibition freestyle', where everyone in the top 12 splits the prize money and the rest is a show... naah. That would lead to stagnation, which, as we all can verify, leads to lots of unneccesary email. JP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Oct 12 06:11:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA04643 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:11:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id GAA04638 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:11:39 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4635) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA04633 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:11:34 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14573 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:11:40 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA04630; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:11:31 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971012014957.22012.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:11:17 -0700 To: "Josh Penney" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] More people in the finals! Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:49 PM -0700 10/11/97, Josh Penney wrote: >Didn't you say something earlier about not being able to compare pools >because there are different people judging, thereby making all scores >relative only to each other? And even if you are only comparing ranks >(did I just pull a JaneJones and answer my own question?) Then you'd >still need to hold another round unless you want two first place >winners, two seconds, two thirds, etc. You sort of pulled a Jane Jones there, yes.. I said if we're gonna have two pools in finals, then the whole event (from start to finish) has to be "cumulative" instead of "winner takes all". Then, we'd compare ranks (as we would from round to round) between pools and rounds; most of the error supposedly being amortized (?) over the entire set of rounds and pools. However, I am not particularly saying I *really* want to do this. Just that it'd be one avenue to explore for solving this. There would be a way to resolve ties (as with any cumulative system we'd use) that relied on objective results that would presumably have fewer biases from pool to pool. A lot of folks have suggested we go to a "cumulative" score system; so if we adopted one, we wouldn't need to make the finals a head-to-head, winner-takes-all round (since it wouldn't be one anyway). If we did that, then we could have as many players as we wanted in the finals.. or, more precisely, as many players as we had time for. The huge downside to cumulative scoring, though, is that the "winner" of a particular round, especially the final round, may not end up on top. That is somewhat counterintuitive (as we've seen with the results from 2nd round this year) and crowds hate it. But we could play it up -- doing like they do in figure skating and other sports -- posting each player's current total cumulative score and telling the audience what score they have to have to make it, etc. But never mind; this is a huge can of worms. :-) >The other possibility would be to just play all day long and forget the >whole final round competition and just have 'singles exhibition >freestyle', where everyone in the top 12 splits the prize money and the >rest is a show... naah. That would lead to stagnation, which, as we all >can verify, leads to lots of unneccesary email. That's basically what we already do. 8.. 12.. not that big of a difference. The competition is just a way to give a point of focus and a spotlight to the freestyle event for the players. It also gives closure to have a final round and the declaration of winners. I think it's kind of cool the way it is. I still get goosbumps watching on finals night. Something about this being a spotlight on the best of the best... If anything, I'd get rid of doubles freestyle on finals night and just have singles be the spotlighted event. Then maybe we could afford the time to have more players in the finals (kind of like figure skating). So who's up for just 2 rounds of doubles until the level of play reaches that of singles? (I'd definitely be up for having the top 1 or 2 teams of men and women do demos on finals night if possible; but doubles competition is long and sometimes boring,and usually that's when we lose most of the crowd anyway.) In fact, doubles freestyle is a big joke. We should just can it altogether. Oops, I know this one's gonna get Jayman's goat.. Better shut up now, Steve. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 13 02:49:14 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA04169 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:47:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA04163 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:47:20 GMT Received: from iguana04@sprynet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4160) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA04158 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:47:19 GMT Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA25380 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:47:24 -0700 Received: from newmicronpc (dd36-174.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.153.174]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA11271 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:47:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199710130247.TAA11271@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Elizabeth Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Re: Final Rounds Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:01:47 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi there, I'll try not to answer any questions here, but doesn't this "cumulative" instead of "winner takes all" approach kind of seem like Final Jeopardy? I like the idea of not having the scores cumulative. What if they just do another round of 2 pools of 6 (so JP doesn't have to sit through the 12 preformances that Tu proposed) before doing finals. This would give anyone deserving of being in the final round a second chance if they flailed in a previous round. It may seem too much to add another round of freestyle, but if the number of competitors is becoming greater, then maybe the sport needs to flex accordingly. I must say, it does seem like some sort of security guard to protect the rulers of shread from having to step down...premeditating who is expected to make finals. Is it fair then to consider any of the above then? Maybe 8 should be a set standard and then only however many rounds necessary to have a final pool of 8. Maybe there shouldn't be any consideration of expanding the final pool to 12 when it seems it is only to ensure that the people who are expected to make finals do. That may seem kind of harsh, but hey, a lot of teams/players lose to people they know they could have beat all the time. Just remember to have good sportsmanship about it. All things considered, I think I like the cut throat-ness of not having scores cumulative. For example, I can't imagine being in the championship game for a soccer tournament and losing...but still getting the trophy because our team previously won more games than our rival team...even if we were a better team. Adios, Jane From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 13 07:35:22 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA05827 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:35:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA05823 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:35:18 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5820) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA05818 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:35:17 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA28632 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:35:24 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA05815; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:35:15 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971010210407.9437.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:36:31 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:04 PM -0700 10/10/97, Daniel Kramer wrote: >...certain faults in the comp cards... Okay, I've been thinking about this comment a lot. And those of you who haven't been reading the "2 cents" thread, please read this message anyway... I want your opinions. I think Dan's convinced me that maybe the right solution to the "composition" score calculation problem is a simple change to the system and not a major overhaul (just yet). I'm not sure that this is exactly what you had in mind, but I think you'll like this (and it's a little obvious once you see it): ---------- Proposed modification to COMPOSITION judging: ----------- | | | Composition judges would be required to count EACH ELEMENT IN THEIR | | CATEGORY for EACH UNIQUE MOVE they see in their category. | | | | In other words, the "dexterity" judge would count EACH dexterity in | | a multi-dexterity move, not just one! Similarly for the "body" judge | | and for any other judge for an add-category that may be doubled in a | | single move. | | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The rationale here is that the comp judges should be counting unique moves ranging across the various categories. The assumption when the system was invented was that a move would only ever have a single element in a particular add-category, so the formula was simple: just add up the categories a trick falls into (as long as it's a unique trick). But we all agree that moves with multiple dexterities (or multiple body components) are yet *different* types of moves! So as such, they *should* be counted in the composition score! (So the second tick-mark the dexterity judge puts down for the second dexterity in a particular trick is essentially Dan's "double-dexterity" tick-mark; but we just don't need to special-case it!) By George I think we've got it! What do folks think? Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 13 14:36:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA07708 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:36:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA07704 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:36:33 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7701) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA07699 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:36:32 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F5.hotmail.com [207.82.250.16]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA31591 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:36:42 -0700 Received: (qmail 20161 invoked by uid 0); 13 Oct 1997 14:36:40 -0000 Message-ID: <19971013143640.20160.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:36:40 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] There Should be more people in the finals! Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:36:40 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I propose changing the number of people making it to the finals from >8 to 12. > >2 huge I totally agree. As far as the footbagger is concerned, the cut is way way harsh. Merlin, Tuan, and Genz should've been there. As far as the sport is concerned, more quality kickers in the finals means a better product. The logistical problems that may arise with an extended finals roster are mostly due to our cumbersome judging system. Hopefully, judging will soon be modified to allow for more kickers in finals - and all the other rounds for that matter. DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 13 15:10:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00235 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:10:55 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00231 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:10:51 GMT Received: from casey@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (228) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00226 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:10:50 GMT Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31969 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:10:45 -0700 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26316 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:10:36 -0500 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199710131510.KAA26316@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] More people in the finals! To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:10:36 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve Goldberg spoke forth with the blessed manuscript: > At 12:40 PM -0700 10/11/97, Tu Vu wrote: > >I propose changing the number of people making it to the finals from > >8 to 12. > > Interesting idea, but the problem has always been **pool size** for the > judges. Especially presentation judges; it's very hard to rank 12 people > -- it's hard enough to rank 8. I haven't ever judged (or competed) freestyle at worlds, but I don't think that matters when I say that the chance that players have getting into the finals shouldn't be determined by "how hard it is to judge." If this is the case, then the judging system is lacking (uhoh). Scott Davidson wrote (in "[freestyle] Quantification of Presentation Cards") that the presentation card should be split into more judges, and it sounds like that could help out a lot. Everyone knows it's a lot easier to work with a single component that is well-defined (hehe) than a whole slew of stuff that you have to "rank" players with. I think this could speed up the judging process by something close to a shitload. Even though I haven't competed at worlds (in freestyle anyway), I have been twice, and I have watched freestyle competition both times so I know the judging takes way too long, and I have overheard people bitching about being a P judge, and people bitching about the P judges' decisions. I think Scott's idea is a good one. I also think Tu's proposition is a good one. um yeah thassit bye -- Casey Zacek Systems Administrator * Programmer NETCOM Interactive From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 13 17:20:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01159 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:20:30 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01155 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:20:27 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1152) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01150 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:20:26 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F54.hotmail.com [207.82.250.65]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00973 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:20:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 26440 invoked by uid 0); 13 Oct 1997 17:20:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19971013172022.26439.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:20:21 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] More people in the finals! Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:20:21 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Casey wrote: >I haven't ever judged (or competed) freestyle at worlds, but I don't >think that matters when I say that the chance that players have >getting into the finals shouldn't be determined by "how hard it is to >judge." If this is the case, then the judging system is lacking >(uhoh). How dare you!!! No one criticizes the judging system except for me. Mine, mine, mine!!! Otherwise I agree. (: DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 13 17:41:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01284 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:41:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01280 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:41:08 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1277) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01275 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:41:07 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F47.hotmail.com [207.82.250.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01235 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:41:08 -0700 Received: (qmail 12267 invoked by uid 0); 13 Oct 1997 17:41:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19971013174107.12266.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:41:07 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: Proposed Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:41:07 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >---------- Proposed modification to COMPOSITION judging: >----------- >Composition judges would be required to count EACH ELEMENT IN THEIR >CATEGORY for EACH UNIQUE MOVE they see in their category. >In other words, the "dexterity" judge would count EACH dexterity in >a multi-dexterity move, not just one! Similarly for the "body" >judge and for any other judge for an add-category that may be >doubled in a single move. I think this would be a good next step. It would definitely give ample reward for multiple dexterity (or body) moves. The only this that I don't like is that it makes the judges' jobs more difficult. Not impossible, just more difficult. I would eventually like to replace the comp cards with the Variety category to be judged subjectively. But anyway, kudos to Steve. I hope his suggestion will be adopted ASAP. How soon is it possible? Can any rules be voted upon before Worlds next year? Two years is too long to wait. DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 16:02:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00625 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:57:34 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00621 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:57:32 GMT Received: from j1876@tir.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (618) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00616 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:57:21 GMT Received: from sun.tir.com (sun.tir.com [205.138.41.6]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16137 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:50:03 -0700 Received: from default (port60.flint07.tir.com [206.101.120.61]) by sun.tir.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29857; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710141550.LAA29857@sun.tir.com> From: "Jay Moldenhauer" To: "Steve Goldberg" Cc: Subject: Re: [freestyle] More people in the finals! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:09:21 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve, It is obvious to me that you have not seen the size of my girth (huh?) lately. I am at about 200lbs and if I recall correctly, you are still a little man. GOT IT???? I would be inclined to agree with you though. Doubles has a long way to go. I was never really pleased with our level of play, meaning a couple times I was pleased. I ramble, therefore I am. Sam & Lisa's routine back in 93,94 (your mind goes after your weight) when they had the 1 drop in the prelim's, is where we all would like to be, along with a good choreographed routine, of course. Point being, the singles play is the highlight and when you have competitors hitting smooth, flowing rounds, well, that is when we stay and watch. As far as having more people in the finals, well.......... Jayman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 17:08:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01203 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01199 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:44 GMT From: freefloe@continet.com Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1196) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01194 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:42 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17127 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:00:26 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.117]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAA218 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:01:56 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Quantification of Presentation Cards Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:01:56 -0700 Message-ID: <19971014170155643.AAA218@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Scott Davidson wrote; >Break them down from having each judge give a possible 10 points, to >putting 1 judge on each of the 5 categories and having each person give up >to 2.0 for their respective categories. This is an interesting idea. >Take each of the 5 subdivisions of the P card and spell out exactly what >they are looking for. I agree that we need more clarity and specifics of what we are we judging, and then discussions as to how we interpret these specifics. ie what qualifies for a high kick?...shoulders high, above head, five feet, ten feet... >For instance, the "Floor, Planes and Travel" category should really be either: >Floor and Planes >or >Planes and Travel >(Because "Floor" and "travel" mean the same thing) what? >Then, instead of giving the judge any lee way, we make it completely >objective. i.e. 1 point for "Floor" and 1 point for "Planes" >If the player uses 100% of the available floor, then they get a 1.0 >If they use 50% of the available floor, they get a 0.5 >and >If the player uses all three planes exquisetly, then they get a 1.0. >If they do all low moves and no medium or high, they get a .3 or .4. >Combine the two to get a score, and the judge isn't overburdened. This is pretty much the philosophy I apply to the current system. If someone did a good variety of high, medium, low kicks yet didn't move anywhere; I'd give them a .8-1.0. >BTW, can anyone define "Personality and Originality" (and I don't mean >"what does it say in the rulebook", I mean we need a new definition! I hate this category. It's the most ambiguous and unless judges hold each other accountable to explaining their reasoning for their numbers it can throw things off a lot. I've never been sure what it's supposed to cover. I view it sort of as presentation, meaning; how does the performer interact with the audience?, how well do they engage the audience?, is there a beginning and end?, what does performer look like? (Sam and Lisa always look great and it worked for Iron Maiden too) how does the performer keep their composure? (or do they walk away swearing)? becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 17:08:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01214 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01210 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:47 GMT From: freefloe@continet.com Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1207) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01205 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:46 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17132 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:00:30 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.117]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAC218 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:02:01 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] judging Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:02:01 -0700 Message-ID: <19971014170155643.AAC218@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:40 PM -0700 10/11/97, Tu Vu wrote: >I propose changing the number of people making it to the finals from 8 to 12. Steve G. wrote >Interesting idea, but the problem has always been **pool size** for the >judges. Especially presentation judges; it's very hard to rank 12 people >-- it's hard enough to rank 8. > There were 12 finalists, and it was really hard for the >presentation judges to rank folks. I judged presentation this round and it was difficult! Partially because most of us were not familiar with many of the kickers so trying to remember who the first several kickers were compared the the last five was brutal. 12 routines in a row, that is two normal pools!! We did have a qualified group of judges so if it didn't work in people's opinion something would need to change to make it work in the future. I think it would be cool to have a system that didn't rely on ranking players. The presentation card would need to be extremely clear in definition and maybe the comp cards need to be open ended (or more difficult to max anyway) rather than limited by earning only 3.0 or 2.0 points. I know that the top players often max out most of the comp cards and the presentation or add/contact ratio seems to determine the outcome. Regarding only doing two rounds of team freestyle: I like this idea, the women only do two rounds and it's fine. becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 21:06:33 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03406 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:05:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03402 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:05:48 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3399) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03397 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:05:47 GMT Received: from apollo.sfsu.edu (apollo.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.167]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20967 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:58:32 -0700 Received: from station36.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-236.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.236]) by apollo.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28279 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971014115026.0069a504@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:50:26 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change In-Reply-To: References: <19971010210407.9437.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:36 AM 10/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 2:04 PM -0700 10/10/97, Steve Goldberg wrote: >---------- Proposed modification to COMPOSITION judging: ----------- >| | >| Composition judges would be required to count EACH ELEMENT IN THEIR | >| CATEGORY for EACH UNIQUE MOVE they see in their category. I think it's fine except counting cards will get a lot harder (just like counting 4 extra people would make it harder for the presenatation judges). I know people will get confused and start asking how many dexterities were in a combo. A good example of this was when Ryan Mulroney hit those 5 FOUR ADDER'S in a row in the second round at worlds. Judge 1: O.K. he hit a ripwalk and that is 3 dex or was it 2 and he did another one oh and then he did a blur and i think that's 2 or 4 dex and then a double down I think that's 2 dex and a blizzard that ahhh umh 3 dex.I count those up but wait he's still going and hitting a paradox whirl is that another 2 dexterities or 3. O.K. maybe that little skit was out of hand but you get the point. And there's nothing wrong with Dan and Steve's proposal. I just think before we add a new change, we should make sure everyone learns how to do it. I see judges who can barely handle the system we have now. We would have to have BETTER and more involved freestyle clinics at worlds. But then again we already need Better and More involved freestyle clinics anyway. I think we should go with the new system. Afterall, If I hit a flurry in my routine than i want credit for it!!! 2 huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 21:07:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03439 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:07:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03435 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:07:41 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3432) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03430 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:07:40 GMT Received: from apollo.sfsu.edu (apollo.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.167]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21001 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:00:24 -0700 Received: from station36.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-236.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.236]) by apollo.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28630 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971014115026.0068c018@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:50:26 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change In-Reply-To: References: <19971010210407.9437.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:36 AM 10/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 2:04 PM -0700 10/10/97, Steve Goldberg wrote: >---------- Proposed modification to COMPOSITION judging: ----------- >| | >| Composition judges would be required to count EACH ELEMENT IN THEIR | >| CATEGORY for EACH UNIQUE MOVE they see in their category. I think it's fine except counting cards will get a lot harder (just like counting 4 extra people would make it harder for the presenatation judges). I know people will get confused and start asking how many dexterities were in a combo. A good example of this was when Ryan Mulroney hit those 5 FOUR ADDER'S in a row in the second round at worlds. Judge 1: O.K. he hit a ripwalk and that is 3 dex or was it 2 and he did another one oh and then he did a blur and i think that's 2 or 4 dex and then a double down I think that's 2 dex and a blizzard that ahhh umh 3 dex.I count those up but wait he's still going and hitting a paradox whirl is that another 2 dexterities or 3. O.K. maybe that little skit was out of hand but you get the point. And there's nothing wrong with Dan and Steve's proposal. I just think before we add a new change, we should make sure everyone learns how to do it. I see judges who can barely handle the system we have now. We would have to have BETTER and more involved freestyle clinics at worlds. But then again we already need Better and More involved freestyle clinics anyway. I think we should go with the new system. Afterall, If I hit a flurry in my routine than i want credit for it!!! 2 huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 22:34:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04176 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:34:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04172 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:34:40 GMT Received: from fishboy@sttl.uswest.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4169) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04167 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:34:39 GMT Received: from sttl1.sttl.uswest.net (sttl1.sttl.uswest.net [206.81.192.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22373 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:27:25 -0700 Received: from bob (dial116.sttl.uswest.net [207.109.86.116]) by sttl1.sttl.uswest.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21635 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3443F2D1.9749345D@sttl.uswest.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:31:45 -0700 From: Rick Weber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle footbag Subject: [freestyle] freestyle music X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just got that Raw Shred video. The footage is awesome, but the music, in my opinion, sucked. I was just curious, is that type of music is considered good by most freestylers? And is it common for someone to perform to it? (I've never been to a competition, I'm relatively new at this) To sum it up I guess, is there a "type" of music that most freestylers enjoy or like to perform with? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 23:22:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04577 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:22:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04573 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:22:40 GMT Received: from mint@canews.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4570) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04568 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:22:39 GMT Received: from aimhi2.aimhi.com ([205.243.42.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23097 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:15:22 -0700 Received: from Hopkins4N.urh.uiuc.edu (crh2207.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.193.217]) by aimhi2.aimhi.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA12856; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:12:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <325C343C.194@canews.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 18:24:45 -0500 From: min X-Sender: min X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Weber CC: freestyle footbag Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle music X-Priority: Normal References: <3443F2D1.9749345D@sttl.uswest.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------21372E6B4DF30" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ------------21372E6B4DF30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Cure ------------21372E6B4DF30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The Cure 
------------21372E6B4DF30-- From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 14 23:53:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04924 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:53:11 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04920 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:53:10 GMT Received: from adriand@callplus.co.nz () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4917) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04915 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:53:10 GMT Received: from inetsrv.callplus.co.nz (mail.callplus.co.nz [203.98.15.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23575 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:45:54 -0700 Received: by mail.callplus.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <46J55BGM>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:45:12 +1300 Message-ID: <11FA7FAAAED1D01194C700203573F13C05A2B4@mail.callplus.co.nz> From: Adrian Dick To: Rick Weber Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: RE: [freestyle] freestyle music Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:45:10 +1300 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think they chose that music because it wasn't copyrighted (ie. it was free to use). I guess they couldve made like Microsoft and spent $40 Million for one cool song, but they wouldnt make much from it (and itd probly be full of errors). Later > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Weber [SMTP:fishboy@sttl.uswest.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 11:32 AM > To: freestyle footbag > Subject: [freestyle] freestyle music > > I just got that Raw Shred video. The footage is awesome, but the > music, > in my opinion, sucked. I was just curious, is that type of music is > considered good by most freestylers? And is it common for someone to > perform to it? (I've never been to a competition, I'm relatively new > at > this) > To sum it up I guess, is there a "type" of music that most freestylers > enjoy or like to perform with? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 01:32:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05818 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:32:27 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA05814 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:32:25 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5811) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA05809 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:32:25 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25034 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:25:12 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA05806; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:32:23 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3443F2D1.9749345D@sttl.uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:26:28 -0700 To: Rick Weber From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle music Cc: freestyle footbag Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:31 PM -0700 10/14/97, Rick Weber wrote: >I just got that Raw Shred video. The footage is awesome, but the music, >in my opinion, sucked. It was "public domain" music; no license fee. Just like porno movies. :-) >I was just curious, is that type of music is >considered good by most freestylers? And is it common for someone to >perform to it? (I've never been to a competition, I'm relatively new at >this) You HAVE to be kidding here, right, Rick?! You don't *really* think we play to that crap do you? >To sum it up I guess, is there a "type" of music that most freestylers >enjoy or like to perform with? People play to music that's rhythmic, usually rock/rap/reggae/pop/etc.. Although they have been known to perform in competition to classical, jazz, and various obscure types (like Sam Conlon at this year's Worlds played to a Scottish jig). But by and large most people play to the latest "cool" music with a beat... The video of finals at Worlds will be online at some point. But if you want to see some examples, check out what I've got on my website; some of it has more reasonable background music, still not exactly what we play to, but you'll get the idea. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 01:53:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA06016 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:53:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA06012 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:53:43 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6009) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06007 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:53:42 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25381 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:46:30 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06004; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:53:36 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971014115026.0069a504@sfsu.edu> References: <19971010210407.9437.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:47:28 -0700 To: Tu Vu From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:50 AM -0700 10/14/97, Tu Vu wrote: >I think it's fine except counting cards will get a lot harder >(just like counting 4 extra people would make it harder for the >presenatation judges). (Jab. :-)) Well, actually, I don't think I buy this. First of all, assuming we have QUALIFIED judges on comp cards (a big assumption, I know), there's little extra difficulty involved with knowing that a particular move is a double- or triple-dexterity move. Comp judges are already required to recognize and understand every move in their category. A comp judge is inadequate if he/she can't recognize every move. (I know this is harsh, but the system assumes they are capable. Perhaps the system is already making too many assumptions, but this one change is not a big one, I don't think.) Secondly, for those of you who don't know, a lot of judges in past events *were* counting this way -- i.e., dexterity judges were putting down a tick-mark for each dexterity in a trick, as I'm proposing, only they weren't *supposed* to be doing it! This led to many erroneous results, where some judges were counting them double, and some weren't. Either way we need to clarify what they're supposed to do, and my theory is, if we're gonna do it, we should do it the right way. >I know people will get confused and start asking >how many dexterities were in a combo. A good example of this was when Ryan >Mulroney hit those 5 FOUR ADDER'S in a row in the second round at worlds. We're not talking combos, per se. A comp judge's job is to watch every trick performed, and identify it. If it's in his category, e.g., if he's a dexterity judge and sees a move that contains a dexterity, his job is to put a tick-mark down on his card for each dexterity WITHIN the trick, IF the move hasn't been hit before (where moves on the left and right sides of the body are different moves). >Judge 1: O.K. he hit a ripwalk and that is 3 dex or was it 2 and he did > another one oh and then he did a blur and i think that's 2 or 4 > dex and then a double down I think that's 2 dex and a blizzard > that ahhh umh 3 dex.I count those up but wait he's still going > and hitting a paradox whirl is that another 2 >dexterities or 3. Nah, the judge goes: "Ok, Ripwalk, 2. There's another Ripwalk, other side. 2. There's a blur, hasn't done it yet, 2. Here's a blizzard, hasn't done it, 2. Paradox whirl, 1." He doesn't keep a running total, he just puts down tick-marks. There are very few tight strings of high-add-value moves in competition (unfortunately), but even if there were his job is not nearly as hard as the add-counter's job, though it's *very* similar. >And there's nothing wrong with Dan and Steve's proposal. I just think >before we add a new change, we should make sure everyone learns how to do >it. I see judges who can barely handle the system we have now. Absolutely. >We would have to have BETTER and more involved freestyle clinics >at worlds. But then again we already need Better and More involved >freestyle clinics anyway. I couldn't agree more with you. When I first started going to Worlds, everyone had to be ready to judge everything. In the last two years, we've improved it so that everyone is expected become an expert at only ONE or possibly two categories, and each judge told what they are judging *before* the judging instruction meeting (he gets to list his first choice on the entry form, too, though this isn't working out that well). Eventually I would like us to go the next step -- perhaps at this year's Worlds -- where judges are CERTIFIED in their categories. Further, people are certified as INSTRUCTORS. My goal is the following: The official judging clinic starts earlier (6:30, eat beforehand) and ends by 8pm at the absolute latest. The reason for this is so that the freestyle staff can have the 8-9pm time to do the final bit of work (to be explained below). The freestyle clinic is a serious sit-down meeting with each player being CERTIFIED in a particular area by a certified instructor. (It is not held outside in the dark, and it's not held in a pizza restaurant, and it's not a free-for-all). It's a very methodical meeting where the instructors are given all the information they need beforehand to hold their sessions, and the players are only required to learn *one* category. At the end of the meeting, each player is TESTED (somehow) on his understanding of the category to be judged as defined by the current official rules. If he doesn't understand, he is required to stay at the meeting for further instruction. If he still doesn't understand, he is disqualified from judging or possibly reassigned to another category that he can understand and be certified in on short notice. The freestyle tournament staff will, as a result of the meeting, then have a list of all the certified judges for each category, organized by category. Hopefully with the help of (simpler) computer software, the staff can then draw up the official judging assignments for the next day, and be done with the entire process by 9pm. Official judging assignments will be posted at the host hotel by 10pm that night, and all players are expected to show up by the check-in deadline the the next morning, 30 minutes before their competition time, or 30 minutes before their judging assignment, whichever comes first. How does that sound? Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 16:27:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00944 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00940 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:28 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (937) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00935 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:27 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F41.hotmail.com [207.82.250.52]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00908 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:25:22 -0700 Received: (qmail 7556 invoked by uid 0); 15 Oct 1997 16:25:21 -0000 Message-ID: <19971015162521.7555.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:25:21 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] freestyle music Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:25:21 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I just got that Raw Shred video. The footage is awesome, but the >music, in my opinion, sucked. I was just curious, is that type of >music is considered good by most freestylers? Yes, it is. What's it to you, PUNK! When I really want to rock out, I hook up my VCR to my stereo, pop in my Raw Shred, turn up the volume all the way and turn off the TV. Just that pedal-pumpin' music baby! And when I drive, I'm drivin at 80. Makes that McDonalds drive-thru a bitch, but how am I supposed to slow down - I'm livin' Raw Shred style! Cause if you wanna be shreddin' in your Lavers, you gotta be shreddin' in your car. While listening to that funky Munger music, of course. Are you IN THE RAW? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 15 17:33:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01505 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:33:44 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01501 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:33:43 GMT From: freefloe@continet.com Received: from freefloe@continet.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1498) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01496 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:33:42 GMT Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02112 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:33:43 -0700 Received: from LOCALNAME ([206.58.169.111]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0121 ID# 0-32324U2000L100S10000) with SMTP id AAB220 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:34:48 -0700 X-Sender: freefloe@continet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] judging clinics Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:34:48 -0700 Message-ID: <19971015173445750.AAB220@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve wrote; >Eventually I would like us to go the next step -- perhaps at this year's >Worlds -- where judges are CERTIFIED in their categories. Further, people >are certified as INSTRUCTORS. I think this is a great idea. I think for best results a somewhat standardized training that could ideally take place before worlds would be best. The meetings at worlds have always been lame and disorganized. I would like to see videos of past routines to teach others and "test" judges. They would have to meet within a certain acceptable range in judging a certain number of routines. Then you could be certified in that particular card. Maybe instructors need to demonstrate competency in a certain number of judging assignments. I suppose you could use this format at worlds if everyone could see the tv or there were more than one. You could clump people by cards and do some verbal explaination, then point out how you'd score to a routine on video, and then have people practice on their own and give them feedback. Even having a few routines on-line with the correct scores for each card would allow people to learn on their own (more or less). Since you shredders are into gathering for "Jams" why not organize freestyle clinics and judging clinics together with your jams? comments?? peace, becca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 16 17:13:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01405 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:13:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01401 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:13:07 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1397) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01394 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:13:05 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18206; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:13:05 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.132] (d132.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.132]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA18737; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:08:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:19:14 -0700 To: Steve Goldberg , freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! >But we all agree that moves with multiple dexterities (or multiple body >components) are yet *different* types of moves! So as such, they *should* >be counted in the composition score! (So the second tick-mark the dexterity >judge puts down for the second dexterity in a particular trick is >essentially Dan's "double-dexterity" tick-mark; but we just don't need to >special-case it!) > >By George I think we've got it! What, are you nuts? The dexterity card, at 2 points (or 20 unique moves), is still the easiest card to fulfill. If you did that, then everyone would max the dex card, thereby reducing the spread on the comp cards, and hence, giving ALL the power to decide an event over to the (ill-defined cards of...) presentation judges. If you did what dan suggests, then the dex card should be bumped up to 3 [or even 4] (like delays was) and take 1 point from the "drops" (because before you start your routine, you are given 5 points for not dropping, then as you drop, they deduct .25 for each. I am saying that if someone drops 16 times, or if they drop 20 times, either way, with or without those points there is NO WAY that person should win, so what does it matter if they start you out with 4, or 5 points in drops). Increasing the number of total dex's needed to max the card is the only way that I will even think about dan's proposal. "Drops" is the only place I can think of to steal from peter to give to paul. My two sense, Enlightener Scott Davidson From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Oct 16 17:21:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01479 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:21:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01475 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:21:25 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1472) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01470 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:21:22 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18348; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:21:24 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01467; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:21:22 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:22:30 -0700 To: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:19 PM -0700 10/16/97, Scott Davidson wrote: >What, are you nuts? The dexterity card, at 2 points (or 20 unique moves), >is still the easiest card to fulfill. Oh, sorry, I forgot to send out the followup: This obviously changes the maxima. In fact, I'm thinking we should reexamine exactly how we "max out" cards as well. But in the short term we could just adjust the maxima to better accommodate this. Take some 1 point away from "body", for instance, which is another of those categories that is rarely maxed. But I'm just thinking out loud. None of this is cast in stone. >If you did what dan suggests, then the dex card should be bumped up to 3 >[or even 4] (like delays was) and take 1 point from the "drops" (because >before you start your routine, you are given 5 points for not dropping, >then as you drop, they deduct .25 for each. I don't like this as much. >Increasing the number of total dex's needed to max the card is the only way >that I will even think about dan's proposal. And it's not Dan's proposal, >it's mine. Of course. >"Drops" is the only place I >can think of to steal from peter to give to paul. Body, body, body. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 03:04:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07170 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:04:04 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07166 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:04:00 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7163) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA07161 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:03:59 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F70.hotmail.com [207.82.250.156]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA27011 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:04:04 -0700 Received: (qmail 23427 invoked by uid 0); 17 Oct 1997 03:04:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19971017030402.23425.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.214.136.66 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:54 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.214.136.66] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:54 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:22:30 -0700 >At 12:19 PM -0700 10/16/97, Scott Davidson wrote: >>What, are you nuts? The dexterity card, at 2 points (or 20 unique moves), >>is still the easiest card to fulfill. > >Oh, sorry, I forgot to send out the followup: > >This obviously changes the maxima. In fact, I'm thinking we should >reexamine exactly how we "max out" cards as well. > Obviously. Why have a maximum at all? If I go out there and do 496 different moves in two minutes, don't penalize me for going over your 'limits'. You could say it was choppy or full of frowns but let variety go the distance, if that *is* one of the major components in competitive freestyle. JP Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they really aren't all out to get you - A.E. Newman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 03:48:59 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07420 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:48:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA07416 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:48:55 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7413) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA07411 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:48:55 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27527 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:49:00 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA07408; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:48:48 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971017030402.23425.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:49:54 -0700 To: "Josh Penney" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:03 PM -0700 10/16/97, Josh Penney wrote: >Why have a maximum at all? If I go out there and do 496 different moves >in two minutes, don't penalize me for going over your 'limits'. Oh, it's just a matter of math. We need a formula where we can get the right results. Actually, you're completely right that there are other ways to do it. I've asked Derrick to come up with a specific proposal and he'll e-mail it out when he's got it.. So stand by. >Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they really aren't all out to >get you - A.E. Newman I used to think everyone was out to get me, now I *know* it. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 04:10:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07596 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:10:26 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07592 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:10:23 GMT Received: from eric@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7589) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA07587 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:10:22 GMT Received: from stick.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA27738 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:10:27 -0700 Received: from localhost (eric@localhost) by stick.netcomi.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA29467 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:09:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: stick.netcomi.com: eric owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:09:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] a couple of questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey guys...the first question i have is about timing during freestyle routines. it was stated at the texas state tournament (which rocked by the way--scott davidson *enlightened* us all, and in case anyone was wondering, kyle is hitting some *sick* stuff) anyway, where was i? oh yeah, it was stated that at worlds the timing started with the music, rather than with the first kick. personally, i think it should be the other way, which is how it was handled at the TX tourney. if we wanted to get anal about it, we could specify some maximum delay, like 15 seconds or something, but i doubt that would become necessary. i think if we do it this way, it'll increase the variety of music that can be used for a freestyle routine. my other question is about the various composition categories in freestyle judging. why do they have a maximum? at first i thought it was for variety, so that one area won't become the sole focus of a routine, but since duplicate moves don't count, i don't see how this would be a problem. i'm sure steve can explain it to me ;) eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 04:40:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07798 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:40:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07792 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:39:59 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7789) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA07787 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:39:59 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28029 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:40:05 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA07784; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:39:56 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:41:10 -0700 To: Eric From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] a couple of questions Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 9:09 PM -0700 10/16/97, Eric wrote: >...specify some maximum delay, like 15 seconds or >something, but i doubt that would become necessary. i think if we do it >this way, it'll increase the variety of music that can be used for a >freestyle routine. This is probably the tenth thread treating this topic. :-) First of all, the rule is "timer starts with music"; it was changed only 3 years ago. Before that, it was "timer starts with first contact" (basically). The problem was Ted Fritsch. Well, not exactly, but it's one excuse. He (among others) took FOREVER to start his routine. The music started, but instead of leading into his routine, he chose to do a Tai-Chi demonstration. Needless to say, it wasn't really in the "spirit" of the rules, so the IFAB in what I considered to be an overreaction, removed any concept of a "lead-in" to a routine, and said the timer should start with the music from then on. I think it's a fine rule -- it's really arbitrary in the greater scheme of things, just so that it's fair and even. In other words, as long as everyone gets the same amount of time, and knows what it is, they can choose to use some of it for lead-in or not. It's up to them. However, personally, I've fought to change this rule every year I've been on the committee (I wasn't on the IFAB when they passed the rule). My rule proposal was to add a 15-second (or 10-second, doesn't make much difference) "lead-in" to routines, whereby the clock starts either: (1) with the first contact, or (2) after 10 (or 15) seconds have elapsed from the start of the music. .. whichever comes first. The arguments I heard (which were overwhelmingly against the idea) had to do again with our old friend, "judging difficulty". Most people thought that it was too much added complexity to have the person running the stopwatch (that being their only responsibility at Worlds, by the way) hit the reset button after 15 seconds or when the first contact is made. (Okay, so maybe I'm hinting that I disagree strongly with this and I think it's trivial to implement. :-)) >my other question is about the various composition categories in freestyle >judging. why do they have a maximum? It's just for the math. >i'm sure steve can explain it to me ;) How did I do? :-) (By the way, I *hate* math.) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 04:52:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07926 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:52:09 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA07922 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:52:08 GMT Received: from eric@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7919) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA07917 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:52:08 GMT Received: from stick.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28118; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:52:13 -0700 Received: from localhost (eric@localhost) by stick.netcomi.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA29624; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:51:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: stick.netcomi.com: eric owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:51:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric Reply-To: Eric To: Steve Goldberg cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a couple of questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I said: > >...specify some maximum delay, like 15 seconds or > >something, but i doubt that would become necessary. i think if we do it > >this way, it'll increase the variety of music that can be used for a > >freestyle routine. Then Steve said: > The arguments I heard (which were overwhelmingly against the idea) had to > do again with our old friend, "judging difficulty". Most people thought > that it was too much added complexity to have the person running the > stopwatch (that being their only responsibility at Worlds, by the way) hit > the reset button after 15 seconds or when the first contact is made. (Okay, > so maybe I'm hinting that I disagree strongly with this and I think it's > trivial to implement. :-)) i fully agree with you steve. if any of the judges are not competent to run a stopwatch in that manner, then i don't want them judging any other aspect of my routine, either. and even if they're not, we ARE living in 1997...it's not hard to show a computer how to do this, in case a suitably talented human is not available. just hit the space bar when they kick it, and as long as we have at least a 486, the computer *should* be able to figure out if it was before or after the magic 15 seconds, and how to deal with it. then again, maybe such sophisticated artificial intelligence is beyond the computers that footbaggers can afford...maybe in a few more years... eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 12:23:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA10115 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:23:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA10110 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:23:15 GMT Received: from ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10107) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10105 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:23:09 GMT Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA31458 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:23:17 -0700 Received: from coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (coinc0 [198.209.253.6]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05867 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:23:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coinc0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.5) id HAA07292; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:23:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:23:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Ida Bettis Fogle X-Sender: ifogle@coinc0 cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a couple of questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Steve Goldberg wrote: > At 9:09 PM -0700 10/16/97, Eric wrote: > > >my other question is about the various composition categories in freestyle > >judging. why do they have a maximum? Then Steve wrote: > > It's just for the math. > I always thought it was to maintain a balance between the presentation & comp cards. Ida Bettis Fogle; ifogle@mail.coin.missouri.edu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 14:12:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA10853 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:12:17 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA10849 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:12:14 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (10846) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA10844 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:12:13 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F61.hotmail.com [207.82.250.147]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA32377 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:12:16 -0700 Received: (qmail 8076 invoked by uid 0); 17 Oct 1997 14:12:15 -0000 Message-ID: <19971017141215.8075.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:12:14 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Fwd: FW: Actual Subtitles (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:12:14 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Ah yes, the "language barrier." > >Sometimes it gives more than it takes away. > >The following are actual subtitles from Hong Kong Action Movies: > > 1. I am damn unsatisfied to be killed in this way. > > 2. Fatty, you with you thick face have hurt my instep. > > 3. Gun wounds again? > > 4. Same old rules: no eyes, no groin. > > 5. A normal person wouldn't steal pituitaries. > > 6. Damn, I'll burn you into a BBQ chicken! > > 7. Take my advice, or I'll spank you without pants. > > 8. Who gave you the nerve to get killed here? > >10. You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice > chicken. > >11. I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out! > >12. You daring lousy guy. > >13. Beat him out of recognizable shape! > >14. I have been scared shitless too much lately. > >15. I got knife scars more than the number of your leg's hair! > >16. Beware! Your bones are going to be disconnected. > >17. The bullets inside are very hot. Why do I feel so cold? > >18. How can you use my intestines as a gift? > >19. This will be of fine service for you, you bag of the scum... > I am sure you will not mind that I remove your manhoods and > leave them out on the dessert floor for your aunts to eat. > >20. Yah-hah, evil spider woman! I have captured you by the short > rabbits and can now deliver you violently to your > gynecologist for a thorough extermination. > >21. Greetings, large black person. Let us not forget to form a > team up together and go into the country to inflict the pain > of our karate feets on some ass of the giant lizard person. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 15:58:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00631 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:56:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00627 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:56:21 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (624) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00622 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:56:20 GMT Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00841; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:56:21 -0700 Received: from station34.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-234.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.234]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13181; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971017085106.00699b8c@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:51:06 -0700 To: Steve Goldberg From: Tu Vu Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:22 AM 10/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 12:19 PM -0700 10/16/97, Scott Davidson wrote: >>What, are you nuts? The dexterity card, at 2 points (or 20 unique moves), >>is still the easiest card to fulfill. > >Oh, sorry, I forgot to send out the followup: > >This obviously changes the maxima. In fact, I'm thinking we should >reexamine exactly how we "max out" cards as well. But in the short term we >could just adjust the maxima to better accommodate this. Take some 1 point >away from "body", for instance, which is another of those categories that >is rarely maxed. But I'm just thinking out loud. None of this is cast in >stone. I don't agree with using "body" to fill the void. I think 5 of those points should be from unsual surface. If you can name one person who maxed unsual surface, I would like to known who it is? No one wants to see people doing 10 diffenrt types of lap catchs or pinchs or even soles just to fill that lame card that noone pays attention to anymore. >>"Drops" is the only place I >>can think of to steal from peter to give to paul. > >Body, body, body. > Unsual, unsual, and maybe some from drops. 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 17:33:05 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01554 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:33:01 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01550 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:32:59 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1547) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01545 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:32:58 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02411 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:33:00 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ka079752 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:41:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Proposed "comp card" change Message-Id: <000000422002959954574@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:36:14 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Oct 17, 1997, 10:51:06 AM US CST Tu Vu wrote: >Unsual, unsual, and maybe some from drops. I agree that a few more tenths could probably be taken from unusual, but I'd like to see a few of them left there. There are several variations of sole, calf, and shin contacts that can easily make for 6-10 unique moves. You could easily take 2 full points from the Drops category without affecting much. That would leave 3 points in Drops, meaning that it would take 12 drops to lose all your drops points. The reality is (at least in pro) that presentation judges will hammer you on drops: Drops "Zone" 0 White 1-2 Green 3-4 Yellow 4-5 Red 5-8 Black So why allot enough points for 20 drops when 8 is enough to differentiate between pros and 12 is enough for intermediate? Of course, maybe if we ever do 'quantify' the presentation card, it might reduce the presentation card impact of drops. -- Derrick Fogle *** dfogle@mlerf.org *** 573.443.1471 -- From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Oct 17 22:40:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04540 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:40:31 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA04536 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:40:29 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4533) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA04531 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:40:29 GMT Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.70.126.131]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06787 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:40:18 -0700 Received: from [207.208.103.90] (d90.vn1.interaccess.com [207.208.103.90]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA13174 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:39:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:46:31 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Someone wrote: >multiple rounds. If you want to complain about anything that went wrong >for Ryan at Worlds, complain about the fact that he got in the same pool >with Scott Davidson. :-) Scott kicked butt on the comp cards, definitely >did more variety than Ryan, in my opinion, and beat him in adds/contact >flat out. So difficulty, schmifficulty... If I could complain about 1 thing, it would be having EXACTLY the same top players in my pool in both the first and second rounds. First round was: Ryan, Daryl, Scott... My second round pool was Ryan, Daryl, Scott. There should be some safeguard against this. Mix it up or something. >>you say that I might be PERSONALLY offending many players with my >>letters. Rosemary's baby wasn't named Daniel. > >You are evil incarnate. :-) Who is rosemary and daniel? No, wait... don't answer that, I don't think I want to know. >>>But what's *especially* strange is that this *minor* difference in >>>VARIETY is given MORE WEIGHT in the formula than a relatively *large* >>>difference in DIFFICULTY. >> >>Now that you agree there's a problem, what's to be done? I don't agree that there is a problem here. >I have always agreed there was a problem. But it's not clear it's the same >problem you think it is. This is why I have wanted to clearly separate the >two issues: > > (1) Is the "variety" scoring system, based on add categories, > the right way to compare the "composition" of a routine? Yes, no problem here. > (2) Are the relative weights of "difficulty", "variety", "execution", and > "presentation" right? Yes, no problem here. >We have to take these two issues separately or we will never get anywhere. Where exactly do you want to go with this? See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Oct 18 16:09:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA01961 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:08:57 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA01957 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:08:54 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1954) Received: from Market.NET ([140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA01952 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:08:52 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F36.hotmail.com [207.82.250.47]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14859 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:08:17 -0700 Received: (qmail 14402 invoked by uid 0); 18 Oct 1997 16:08:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19971018160817.14401.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.196.105.75 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:08:13 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.196.105.75] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a couple of questions Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:08:13 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I said: >> >...specify some maximum delay, like 15 seconds or >> >something, but i doubt that would become necessary. >Then Steve said: >> The arguments I heard (which were overwhelmingly against the idea) had to >> do again with our old friend, "judging difficulty". Okay, >> so maybe I'm hinting that I disagree strongly with this and I think it's >> trivial to implement. :-) > Not only that, but every tournament I've ever been to no one ever declared any trouble with this issue. Even when 'Fresh' was there. May I remind that Rick's routine from '96 had a 2-second intro? The real problem with this earth-shattering scenario is, considering the delay between routines because of judges' tabulations, we're all patient enough to wait that extra ten seconds or so while the song cues, or the styler get his 'mad' on, or whatever. And if she/he took too long, we'd all start yelling anyway. Okay? JP Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they really aren't all out to get you - A.E. Newman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 20 07:49:36 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA05762 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:49:15 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA05758 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:49:13 GMT Received: from c655664@showme.missouri.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5755) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA05753 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:49:12 GMT Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04892 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:49:10 -0700 Received: from sp2n17.missouri.edu (sp2n17.missouri.edu [128.206.2.27]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA763334 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:48:59 -0500 Received: from localhost (c655664@localhost) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA155126 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:46:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: sp2n17.missouri.edu: c655664 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:46:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Marschall X-Sender: c655664@sp2n17.missouri.edu To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] mirrors Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey list, it's 2:30 AM, and I'm in the computer lab doing a paper (due in a few hours), so naturally my mind is on footbag. Lately in an attempt to work my weak side I have been trying to work mirroring patterns of moves. I find great delight in coming up with mirror combos. An example of this is: whirl, para whirl, whirl, para whirl. Usually you can simply attempt to do each move alternately on each side and have a mirror combo as a result. But, not always, i.e.: to do both sides of ripwalks and para whirls you need to put the para whirls back to back (ripwalk, para whirl, para whirl, ripwalk). Finding different variations for different mirroring combos has been helping my freestyle considerably lately. Who else out there thinks about this and wants to share some of their favorite mirroring combos? Joe Marschall ps: one that I dream is : whirling swirl, blurry whirl, whirling swirl, blurry whirl. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 20 13:55:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA07687 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:55:33 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA07683 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:55:31 GMT Received: from klein@proscape.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (7680) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA07678 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:55:30 GMT Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA07369 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:55:40 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCDD3D.E6AC8220@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:52:39 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] mirroring Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:52:37 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 9 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org One of my favorite mirroring drills consists of attempting to hit both side double leg over, both side paradox mirage, both side whirl and both side drifter in the same juggle. I'm currently one drifter away from hitting it. That dream combo of Joe's is SICKY!! Josh Penney came close to a nice mirroring combo with torque-->ripwalk-->torque-->ripwalk, which would be niceness. I like whirl-->opp. butterfly-->whirl-->opp. butterfly. Symmetry never fails in beautifying juggles. Ethan From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 20 15:25:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00430 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:23:49 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00426 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:23:46 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (423) Received: from Market.NET ([140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00421 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:23:43 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA08292 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:23:06 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ma080638 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:31:57 -0500 Subject: [freestyle] Lead-In Time Message-Id: <000000427542960205990@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:26:30 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org When the IFAB originally made the "2 minutes, timer starts on first performance sound or motion" rule, I advocated allowing a lead-in time. = Since then, I've come to appreciate the beauty of such a simple, straightforward approach. Unfortunately, many people misinterpret the "you get 2 minutes to do = whatever you want, including leading into kicking if you want to" concept to mean = that you can't have a lead-in to your performance. Since most people seem to = want this, and I don't see any real harm in it besides giving people something = else to be confused about, I am willing to support it in IFAB. But I think 10 seconds is plenty - 10 seconds is a damn long time when you = are watching someone stand there and snap thier fingers to the beat of the = music as they 'lead in' to their performance. I watch freestyle to see people = play footbag, and I like it when they pretty much get down to business right = away. -- Derrick= From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 20 16:21:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00840 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:21:22 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00836 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:21:19 GMT Received: from crvich@raleigh.ibm.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (833) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00831 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:21:18 GMT Received: from fwns1.raleigh.ibm.com (fwns1d.raleigh.ibm.com [204.146.167.235]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09032 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:20:50 -0700 Received: from rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.172.47]) by fwns1.raleigh.ibm.com (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7RTP-FW1.1) with ESMTP id MAA25070 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ode1.raleigh.ibm.com (ode1.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.178.164]) by rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/RTP-ral-1.1) with SMTP id MAA26992 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:20:28 -0400 Received: from odent1.raleigh.ibm.com by ode1.raleigh.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-RAL) id AA36794; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:18:20 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971020121641.00908d90@ode1> X-Sender: crvich@ode1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:16:41 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] New move? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I recently hit what I believe will open up a whole new set of freestyle moves. Here's the breakdown of its simplest form: toe > same rump I call it a Rump Stall, and I think you'll agree it's a phat move. In fact, the more phat you have, the better. Now, granted, this is only two adds (thanks to the Unusual Surface category), but think of the possibilities: Fairy Rump (3 adds, not to be confused with Hairy Rump [zero adds]) Ducking Rump (I call this Rump Roast, 3 adds) Flying Rumper (only 2 adds, but a real crowd pleaser) Rumpwalk (4 totally *sick* adds) I'm working on a cross-body version, but it's quite a stretch. Call me cheeky, but I predict these types of moves will change the face of freestyle as we know it. I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. -- Ernest M. Crvich Durham, NC, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~ecrvich Have footbag, will shred. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 20 17:24:54 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01400 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:24:36 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01394 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:24:33 GMT Received: from grandincredible@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1388) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01382 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:24:31 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F12.hotmail.com [207.82.250.23]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA10712 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:24:28 -0700 Received: (qmail 21301 invoked by uid 0); 20 Oct 1997 17:24:23 -0000 Message-ID: <19971020172423.21300.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.249.188.156 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:24:23 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.249.188.156] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] New move? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:24:23 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'm trying to get the hang of that freestyle move notation. op>toe>in>rump How's that? DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Oct 20 20:47:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02961 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:47:14 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02957 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:47:12 GMT Received: from tuhuge@sfsu.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2954) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02952 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:47:11 GMT Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14396; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:47:11 -0700 Received: from station23.sfsu.edu (24hrlab-223.sfsu.edu [130.212.37.223]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20736; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971020134116.0069fb78@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:41:16 -0700 To: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) From: Tu Vu Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 cents Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 05:46 PM 10/17/97 -0700, Scott wrote: >Someone wrote: >>multiple rounds. If you want to complain about anything that went wrong >>for Ryan at Worlds, complain about the fact that he got in the same pool >>with Scott Davidson. :-) Scott kicked butt on the comp cards, definitely >>did more variety than Ryan, in my opinion, and beat him in adds/contact >>flat out. So difficulty, schmifficulty... >If I could complain about 1 thing, it would be having EXACTLY the same top >players in my pool in both the first and second rounds. First round was: >Ryan, Daryl, Scott... My second round pool was Ryan, Daryl, Scott. There >should be some safeguard against this. Mix it up or something. I know why don't we add another player from every pool so the cuts to make finals aren't so ruthless :-) 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 00:54:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05360 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:53:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA05356 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:53:09 GMT Received: from mendon@sound.net () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5353) Received: from echo.sound.net (echo.sound.net [205.242.192.21]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA05351 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:53:08 GMT Received: (qmail 29007 invoked from network); 21 Oct 1997 00:48:00 -0000 Received: from tnt2-cdf2c9c2.kc.sound.net (HELO mendon) (205.242.201.194) by echo.sound.net with SMTP; 21 Oct 1997 00:48:00 -0000 Message-ID: <344BFC96.9AFEEA78@sound.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:51:35 -0500 From: Mendon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] nebraska weekend X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just wanted to let all you Huskers know that I (Jeff Mendon) will be up in Lincoln, Neb. this weekend. I have relatives that live just blocks away from the campus, so if you want to hack on Saturday just give me an email at "mendon@sound.net" thanks, Jeff From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 02:30:06 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06110 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:29:52 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA06106 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:29:50 GMT Received: from gimmiezo@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (6103) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA06101 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:29:48 GMT From: GimmieZo@aol.com Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19655 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:29:52 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA06183 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971020221932_-897123855@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Paradox element Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I am having some trouble understanding what a "paradox" move is. I always thought that it was just circling the bag to opposite way but apparently I am wrong. Could someone give me a really simple definition and example of this. thanks a lot. Joey From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 09:45:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA08764 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:45:06 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA08760 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:45:04 GMT Received: from gimmiezo@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8757) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA08755 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:45:03 GMT From: GimmieZo@aol.com Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23476 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:45:10 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id FAA08119 for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971020220131_26469073@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Facile Footbags Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I am going to order a new footbag and I decided that I am going to buy a Facile made footbag. I am aware of the Juice Facile but i was wondering if anyone knows of some other designs that are available in facile. Any suggestions or comments are apprecitated. thanks Do competition judges take into consideration the softness of the footbag(s) being used in a routine? Joey Wilson Salt Lake City, UT From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 09:56:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA08835 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:56:43 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA08831 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:56:42 GMT Received: from eric@netcomi.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (8828) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA08826 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:56:41 GMT Received: from stick.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23555 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:56:49 -0700 Received: from localhost (eric@localhost) by stick.netcomi.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA22604; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:56:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: stick.netcomi.com: eric owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:56:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric To: GimmieZo@aol.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Facile Footbags In-Reply-To: <971020220131_26469073@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 GimmieZo@aol.com wrote: > I am going to order a new footbag and I decided that I am going to buy a > Facile made footbag. I am aware of the Juice Facile but i was wondering if > anyone knows of some other designs that are available in facile. Any > suggestions or comments are apprecitated. thanks i have a facile legend (42-panel) that has served me very well for over a year. of course, the majority of the surface is glue now, but that just makes for better traction :) > Do competition judges take into consideration the softness of the footbag(s) > being used in a routine? not as far as i know. they might hear the difference between a sand- or dirtbag and judge differently (then again they may not, i've never been a presentation judge) but it's almost a certainty that they won't know if your bag is made of leather (ouch!), synthasuede, or facile. besides, EVERYBODY uses facile. eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 13:55:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA09821 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:55:19 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA09817 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:55:17 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9814) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA09812 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:55:16 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA25333 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:55:24 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id la081313 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:04:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox element Message-Id: <000000429372960287132@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:58:52 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, Oct 20, 1997, 9:29:51 PM US CST GimmieZo@aol.com wrote: >I am having some trouble understanding what a "paradox" move is. I always >thought that it was just circling the bag to opposite way but apparently That's the simple explanation. A paradox move must: 1) be set from a cross-body 2) the setting foot must perform a dexterity 3) the final contact must either be with the setting foot cross-body again, or with the non-setting foot 4) if the final contact is with the non-setting foot cross-body, only mirage/whirl-type dexterities are considered paradox (butterfly-style dexterities are excluded). Don't try to "understand" what a paradox is until you can do 8 or 10 different paradox moves and draw your own conclusion. Its more like memorizing "I before E except after C". Standard disclaimer: this is the 'standard, accepted' definition of paradox; I don't agree with it, I am just telling you what it is. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 13:58:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA09838 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:58:48 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA09834 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:58:47 GMT Received: from enlightener@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9831) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA09829 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:58:47 GMT Received: from neuman.interaccess.com (neuman.interaccess.com [207.70.126.130]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA25372 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:58:56 -0700 Received: from [207.208.4.23] (d23.maxtnt.interaccess.com [207.208.4.23]) by neuman.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA18986 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:54:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:05:20 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson) Subject: [freestyle] Re: (freestyle) More people in the finals! Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Josh wrote: >The other possibility would be to just play all day long and forget the >whole final round competition and just have 'singles exhibition >freestyle', where everyone in the top 12 splits the prize money and the >rest is a show... naah. Hey, didn't I propose something like this about a month ago? Invitation Shreds where "everyone" wins. At least those that are invited get paid, everyone is welcome. Anyway, See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 14:12:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09913 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:12:40 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09909 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:12:39 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9906) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA09904 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:12:38 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA25499 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:12:47 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ia081336 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:22:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox element Message-Id: <000000429452960288171@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:16:11 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Oct 21, 1997, 8:58:52 AM US CST Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: >1) be set from a cross-body >2) the setting foot must perform a dexterity >3) the final contact must either be with the setting foot cross-body again, > or with the non-setting foot >4) if the final contact is with the non-setting foot cross-body, only > mirage/whirl-type dexterities are considered paradox (butterfly-style > dexterities are excluded). Oh, I forgot 5) no spin element can occur before the critical dexterity occurs (but can occur afterwards). >Standard disclaimer: this is the 'standard, accepted' definition of paradox; > I don't agree with it, I am just telling you what it is. Still holds. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 14:20:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09962 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:20:08 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA09957 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:20:07 GMT Received: from stoler@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (9954) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA09952 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:20:06 GMT Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25577 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:20:15 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA10408 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:20:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lax-ca19-03.ix.netcom.com(204.31.253.35) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma010390; Tue Oct 21 09:20:03 1997 Received: by lax-ca10-16.ix.netcom.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDDF1.D561E230@lax-ca10-16.ix.netcom.com>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:20:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCDDF1.D561E230@lax-ca10-16.ix.netcom.com> From: Mike Stoler To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] some thoughts on freestyle rule changes Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:20:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello. I'm not an open-level freestyler. It may very well be that I don't understand the issues involved. Still, I offer these observations on some of the changes to freestyle judging rule changes that have been discussed. 1. There are no more points to be taken from any aspect of the comp card. Already Scott D. got a 9.2, 9.6, and 9.4 on his worlds routines. I bet he can nail a 10.0 on the comp card next year in some round. 2. Adding more judges to the presentation card will yield mixed results. Sure, if you give each judge less to think about, they will be able to do their job better and quicker. But, the downside is that requiring more judges will make tournaments harder to run and more judges will mean there will be more bad judges. 3. Counting multiple dexterity tricks as multiple "ticks" on the dexterity card will make it more desirable to do high-add tricks. But, I think it will make judging more difficult to do. There's no way I could do that. 4. Having more people make the finals will make the finals harder to judge. IMO, it's great the way it is now, that it's hard as hell to make the finals. This way, you know that the people that make the finals are definitely worthy. It also forces the best players to play hard in the second round. There is no easy-ride into the finals for anybody. 5. IMO, the add ratio doesn't weigh enough for what it measures. Someone who does a routine with an add ratio of 2.5 has done something much more significant than someone who does a routine with an add ratio of 2.0, something more significant than the point spread would indicate. But there is good news here. Since the add ratio cannot be less than 1, the range is always between 1.0 and around 2.5+. I recommend that we subtract 1.0 from the add ratio. Now there's a point to add to somewhere else. However, I recommend is that we double what remains of the add ratio, making it range from 0 to 3+. (I leave the math to others, Steve. :-) 6. I've heard someone suggest that the time has come for Paradox and Symposium components on the comp card. Since these are currently counted in the body column (yes?) and most players don't max out this component, then maybe it's not necessary yet. 7. IMO, there is something very right about 3 x 10 point cards to judge freestyle. I'm not sure how much one can tinker with it and still be left with something as "balanced" as the current system. Talk to you all later, Rex From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 14:52:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00131 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:51:05 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00127 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:51:03 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (124) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA00122 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:51:02 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA25884 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:51:02 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id la081365 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:00:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [freestyle] some thoughts on freestyle rule changes Message-Id: <000000429532960290467@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:54:27 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org ('freestyle@footbag.org') MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Oct 21, 1997, 9:20:31 AM US CST Mike Stoler wrote: > But there is good news here. Since the add ratio cannot be less than >1, the range is always between 1.0 and around 2.5+. I recommend that >we subtract 1.0 from the add ratio. Now there's a point to add to Wow, this had never occurred to me. Technically, it isn't correct, because if someone does two toe delays, but the second one rolls off the foot, that person is given 1 add for the good toe delay, but assessed 2 contacts - one for each of the attempted add-value contacts. Its another hidden drop penalty, actually. But anyway, for the most part I agree; we can offset the ratio by 1 and give more room there. The adds and add ratio together can be up to 5 points, meaning that a short routine with only 100 adds but an incredible 4-add ratio would still get the 5 full points. If someone could rifle off 400 toe delays in two minutes, they would also get 5 points.Offsetting the ratio by 1 would not change the relative score of these two extremes - they would both end up with a 4.0 diffuculty score. I can see that, while it hasn't been done yet, the future of freestyle could go beyond a 200 add, 3.0 ratio performance. Making this 1-point offset change would make sure we have some breathing room for expansion. Then the 'ultimate' performance would be more like 250 adds at a 3.5 ratio. That will be a difficult goal to attain in 120 seconds, even if players are allowed and extra 10 seconds lead-in. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 15:22:14 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00295 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:22:13 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA00291 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:22:12 GMT Received: from klein@proscape.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (288) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA00286 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:22:11 GMT Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA26233 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:22:11 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCDE13.2792D390@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:19:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: FW: [freestyle] Paradox element Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:19:10 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 40 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello, I forwarded Derrick's definition of paradox to a friend of mine who is a beginning freestyler but enjoys discussing freestyle technicalities and he pointed out a seemingly obvious and overlooked error in the accepted definition of paradox. What do you think? -----Original Message----- From: Xaq Pitkow Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 11:01 AM To: Ethan Klein Subject: RE: [freestyle] Paradox element I agree with the FREESTYLE part! But a swirl, by Derrick's definition, IS a paradox move. Derrick's def: 1) be set from a cross-body 2) the setting foot must perform a dexterity 3) the final contact must either be with the setting foot cross-body again, or with the non-setting foot 4) if the final contact is with the non-setting foot cross-body, only mirage/whirl-type dexterities are considered paradox (butterfly-style dexterities are excluded). Swirl: 1) set from cross-body 2) setting foot performs a dexterity 3) final contact is setting foot cross-body 4) (not relevant, since final contact is not with non-setting foot) By this definition, a swirl is a paradox move. But since, as we know, a swirl is not paradox, therefore there is a contradiction. Derrick's definition cannot be correct. Q.E.D. -xaq From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 16:06:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00699 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:06:35 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA00695 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:06:34 GMT Received: from klein@proscape.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (692) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00690 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:06:34 GMT Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA26762 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:06:34 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCDE19.5AEB73E0@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:03:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Paradoxity's paradox - from Derrick Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:03:32 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 26 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org -----Original Message----- From: dfogle@mlerf.org [SMTP:dfogle@mlerf.org] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 11:45 AM To: Ethan Klein Subject: Re: FW: [freestyle] Paradox element On Tue, Oct 21, 1997, 10:19:10 AM US CST Ethan Klein wrote: >But a swirl, by Derrick's definition, IS a paradox move. Rats! You got me! But... Remember, that's not MY definition of paradox. That is the 'generally accepted' definition of paradox, and contradictions like this are included among the reasons that I personally don't agree with it. Anyway, the official rulebook definition does pay specific lip service to the idea that a pardox is a body move that involves a quick double opposing pivot of the hips, and I think it even states that nefarious, undefinable element must be present for a move to be paradox. I've always thought that the swirl, a combined element move (executing a dexterity while in the cross-body position), is as worthy of an extra add as almost any paradox move, so I find your exposure of this contradiction very interesting. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 17:52:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01597 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:51:46 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01593 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:51:45 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1590) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01588 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:51:45 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28363 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:51:46 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01585 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:51:44 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <971020220131_26469073@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:22:57 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Facile Footbags Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:56 AM -0700 10/21/97, Eric Burgess wrote: >i have a facile legend (42-panel) that has served me very well for over a >year. of course, the majority of the surface is glue now, but that just >makes for better traction :) Yeah, but almost every pro freestyler prefers a 32-panel facile Juice or similar footbag. The thing you have to remember, Joey, is that facile is a much less durable material than the other synthetics used for modern-day footbags. So you must expect a panel or two to "disintegrate" while you're kicking it. When beads start flying out (which they almost always will -- just expect it and you'll be happily surprised if they don't), just dab some rubber cement or other glue on the hole and try to keep from getting it all over the place. Just try to make sure the glue doesn't weigh too heavily in one spot (for a couple of reasons) and that you don't scrunch or change the shape of the bag by dabbing the glue. >> Do competition judges take into consideration the softness of the footbag(s) >> being used in a routine? > >not as far as i know. they might hear the difference between a sand- or >dirtbag and judge differently (then again they may not, i've never been a >presentation judge) but it's almost a certainty that they won't know if >your bag is made of leather (ouch!), synthasuede, or facile. besides, >EVERYBODY uses facile. Actually, most experienced freestylers can tell not only what type of bag you're using from 20 feet, but on close inspection can usually tell you exactly who sewed the bag you're using. :-) But that has no bearing on the judging of freestyle. Sometimes, however, if you use a really gross and disgustingly dark, gnarly old ratty footbag to do your routine, a judge might give you less presentation points. Not typical, though. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 18:05:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01719 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:05:53 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01715 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:05:52 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1712) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01710 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:05:52 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28595 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:05:53 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01707 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:05:51 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:07:26 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: FW: [freestyle] Paradox element Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 8:19 AM -0700 10/21/97, Ethan Klein wrote: >Hello, I forwarded Derrick's definition of paradox to a friend of mine who >is a beginning freestyler but enjoys discussing freestyle technicalities >and he pointed out a seemingly obvious and overlooked error in the accepted >definition of paradox. What do you think? I think I wish I was never born. First of all, Ethan you may not have been here for the first THREE round of the great paradox debate. So maybe you're not sensitive to the issue of even beginning to try to poke holes in The Holy Definition. So I'll forgive you and your friend Xaq, right or wrong. :-) [And for the record, I absolutely disagree with the "official" definition, whether Derrick got it right or not, though it is definitely close.] Second, the reason Joey asked for an explanation was innocent enough. Instead of quoting "official" definitions and setting up for an ensuing argument, it probably would have been more efficient to just describe it in English -- i.e., what it is, why it is called "paradox", etc. (which I'll do below). Third, the "agreed upon" definition is *not* the thing you tell a new player when describing the concept (counterintuitive as that may seem). It is a much-debated attempt at coming up with a simple technical rule to differentiate paradox moves from non-paradox moves. It doesn't do the unintiated much good at all. :-) Okay, that said, I'll put my money where my mouth is, and give the *basic* introduction to the "paradox" concept for those of you who have never really gotten it. It will be in the next message so it's not lost like all my other long-winded explanations that nobody ever reads (except Josh and Derrick). :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 18:27:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01850 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:27:45 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA01846 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:27:44 GMT Received: from dfogle@mlerf.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (1843) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01841 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:27:44 GMT Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28867 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:27:45 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id pa081499 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:36:20 -0500 Subject: Re: FW: [freestyle] Paradox element Message-Id: <000000429982960303469@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:31:08 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.5 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Oct 21, 1997, 1:07:26 PM US CST Steve Goldberg wrote: >I think I wish I was never born. I'm so glad I can do that for you, Steve. 8{) >Third, the "agreed upon" definition is *not* the thing you tell a new >player when describing the concept (counterintuitive as that may seem). I'll let that statement speak volumes. -- Derrick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 20:13:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02735 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:13:28 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA02726 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:13:26 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (2723) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02721 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:13:25 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA30540 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:13:28 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02718 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:13:23 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:14:50 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Tutorial v1.0a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org For those of you who don't know what "paradox" means, the following is a basic tutorial (written by yours truly). For those of you who are experts, it may be a good way for you to explain the concept to others, so I invite you to read it. But please don't pick nits with it (corrections are fine, but perhaps they're better done in private e-mail; I will post a corrected or updated tutorial later if necessary, given whatever feedback I get from experts). The idea is to explain the basic concepts, and not to get into the gnarly details. It is also hoped that the following tutorial can evolve and live on the website and be posted to this list when people ask this question (which they will) into the future: ----- WHAT IS PARADOX? The first thing to do to understand "paradox" is to look at one of the basic paradox moves and see exactly how it differs from the "non-paradox" version of the same move. In this case, we'll compare "mirage" with "paradox mirage". For the purposes of this discussion, consider "mirage" from a "clipper" set. That is: clip > op in dex > op toe "mirage" (from clipper set) Concretely, let's say you set the bag straight up, out of your right clipper delay. To do a "mirage", you would then plant your right foot (the one that just did the clipper set), and jump over the bag with your left leg (we call this an "in-out" dexterity), catching the bag on the toe of your right foot. Now, the "paradox" version of the same mirage would be have exactly the same ending, (i.e., in-out dexterity to opposite toe) but with the *other* leg doing the initial clipper set. In other words, instead of setting the exact same left-leg in-out dexterity using your right clipper, you start out with a set from your LEFT clipper. This makes the move APPRECIABLY HARDER: clip > SAME in dex > op toe "paradox mirage" Why is it harder? Well, this is the essence of "paradox", and I'll get to it below. Try to do this yourself and I think you'll see it is harder. [Instruction: The standard way to hit a paradox mirage is not to plant the setting foot (since that just makes the timing harder). Instead, you do a set, and IMMEDIATELY "snake" your setting leg out from behind the leg you set with (this implies that paradox moves are always set from a cross-body, because it's the snaking motion that partly defines what a paradox is) and without planting you throw the leg over the bag from in to out. Then you do the delay on your opposite toe. Consider that since the motion was "in-out", you had to really get your leg around the bag when doing the dexterity. This is *part* of what makes the move harder than the non-paradox version of the same move.] So for this example, "paradox mirage" is considered the "paradox" version of "mirage" because, technically, it is a mirage, except that it is *harder* because of set is from the "wrong clipper"! ****** Therein lies the paradox -- in freestyle footbag, it has always been the common thinking that "the set doesn't affect the difficulty". But we all know it does for "paradox" moves. ****** So the essence of "paradox" is that, by changing the set from one side to the other, but keeping the rest of the move the same, you make the move appreciably harder to execute. This is not true of *all* moves -- just of those moves that *are* harder as a result of the set. [For the sake of this explanation, assume that paradox only makes sense for "cross-body" (or "clipper") sets.] There is nothing in the *basic* definition of "paradox" that implies anything about whether a dexterity is "in-out" or "out-in". In other words, there are paradox versions of out-in dexterity moves, just as with in-out moves; for example, "paradox reverse-mirage". However, there is a class of moves starting with a clipper set for which the difficulty of executing the move is *not* appreciably different for *either* side set. Such moves generally involve OUT-IN dexterities, but that's a red herring. The fact is that "paradox" *doesn't* mean "set from the opposite clipper from the regular move"... People frequently try to define "paradox" in a way where it stands alone, instead of in simpler terms of the non-paradox versions of the same move. Here is a simple way to look at "paradox": "Paradox" as a term only makes sense when used to describe a move that is more difficult than, but otherwise identical to another move -- wherein the difference is entirely attributed to the *set*. Furthermore, the set for a paradox move is always from the cross-body position. That said, the actual determination of which moves are harder because of the different cross-body set is the ultimate issue behind the "great paradox debate". Suffice it to say that, in general, if the move doesn't *require* the "double-hip-pivot" to execute, it's not paradox but rather just the other-side set. Examples of moves that *can't* be made "paradox" are: butterfly, switch-over, leg-over, and swirl. (This is not an exhaustive list.) Paul Munger sent out a reasonably good list of criteria for whether or not a move is paradox. This tutorial is not meant to propose any standard for measuring such, but rather to give the reader a basic understanding of the concept. The rest of this tutorial gets into the contentious issues around why paradox moves are "appreciably harder". You can skip it if you don't care. It is not intended to stimulate discussion or argument, but to simply orient the reader as to the issues involved. Most advanced freestylers agree that the paradox mirage is harder than the mirage for a couple of reasons: "paradox mirage" is harder than "mirage" because: (1) you have to "snake" your setting leg out from the cross-body position quickly and precisely in order to get back under the bag for the initial dexterity; (2) you have to really pivot your hips (more than usual) to perform the move -- first in one direction, then in the other. Therefore, in the current difficulty-rating system, a "paradox" move is awarded an extra "body" add (for the double-hip-pivot). You can probably see that this is a contentious issue -- since most players believe paradox moves are harder than their non-paradox counterparts, really defining why is important. The "double-hip-pivot" standard is not particularly well accepted and people frequently come up with moves that don't fit this standard but which they believe are paradox. We won't address these cases in this tutorial. Further, certain spinning (or gyrating) moves are thought of as "taking the place" of paradox in most cases. It is important that you understand that spins or gyrations don't necessarily "negate" paradox -- they don't "cancel it out". They simply "subsume" it. If you think back to the earlier description of paradox mirage, it's the "snaking dexterity motion" and the "body" hip-pivot required to hit the move that make it "paradox" as a result of setting from the "wrong side" and going the "long way around the bag". Spinning or gyrating is just another such added level of difficulty... A good example is "vortex". At first glimpse, "vortex" looks like a "gyrating paradox drifter". But this is not correct; "vortex" is a "gyrating drifter" (non-paradox). The reason is simple: the spin of the gyrating motion is a "body" motion; once the spin is complete the remaining work is very similar to the work required to hit a drifter from the "simple" set. The spin made the move harder, not the same-side set. (This gets into the argument about switching feet in spins/gyros; I will leave that for a separate thread.) That's enough for now. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 20:55:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03080 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:55:42 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA03076 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:55:41 GMT Received: from gimmiezo@aol.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3073) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03071 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:55:40 GMT Received: from imo09.mx.aol.com (imo09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.101]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA31285; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:55:42 -0700 From: Gimmie Zo Message-ID: <76d88319.344d16be@aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:56:06 EDT To: brat@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Tutorial v1.0a Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv10) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thanks a ton for the explanation Steve. You were right when you said that is no way to treat a new comer. Hheheh :P Lemme get this straight. Just for the sake of example ill use a whirl. If i wanted to do a Paradox Whirl would I: >From a left clipper delay, circle the bag with my left from out to in, then land the left to support a right clipper delay? thanks. -Joey From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 21:03:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03158 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:03:10 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA03154 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:03:09 GMT Received: from brat@footbag.org () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (3151) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03149 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:03:09 GMT Received: from eniac.yak.net (eniac.Yak.NET [140.174.206.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA31450 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:03:12 -0700 Received: from [205.219.91.196] (brat_196.bayarea.net [205.219.91.196]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA03145; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:02:59 GMT X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <76d88319.344d16be@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:04:24 -0700 To: Gimmie Zo From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox Tutorial v1.0a Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 1:56 PM -0700 10/21/97, Joey wrote: >Lemme get this straight. Just for the sake of example ill use a whirl. >If i wanted to do a Paradox Whirl would I: >From a left clipper delay, circle the bag with my left from out to in, then >land the left to support a right clipper delay? *VERY* close! Almost right except for the "out to in" part. :-) The terms "in to out" and "out to in" are sometimes confusing. In fact, we refer to the "whirl" motion as "in-out". Otherwise, you're right. You got it. :-) Note, to hit paradox whirl (as most paradox moves), you have to set the bag straight up and then PIVOT your body sharply to get the in-out whirl motion to happen with the setting foot. That (plus the added difficulty required for the snake-like dexterity with the setting foot) makes it harder than a same-side set regular whirl. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Oct 21 23:41:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04433 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:41:16 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04429 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:41:15 GMT Received: from scalf@utdallas.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4426) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04424 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:41:14 GMT Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00915 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:41:18 -0700 Received: from apache.utdallas.edu (scalf@apache.utdallas.edu [129.110.16.9]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA28330 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:41:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (scalf@localhost) by apache.utdallas.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00755 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:41:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: apache.utdallas.edu: scalf owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:41:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Derric Scalf To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] swirls Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok. Who can give me the magic key for doing swirls? I see people do it and make it look so easy, but if I ever hit it, it looks retarded. Makes me think I'm doing something wrong. Any advice? -Derric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 22 00:46:43 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04935 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:46:20 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA04931 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:46:19 GMT Received: from nhall@ncsa.uiuc.edu () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (4928) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA04926 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:46:18 GMT Received: from ncsa.uiuc.edu (sdgmail.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.103.66]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01865 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:46:22 -0700 Received: from void.ncsa.uiuc.edu (void [141.142.103.20]) by ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21132 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:47:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nhall@localhost) by void.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.8.2/8.8.2) id TAA09047; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:49:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:49:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Nicholas Hall To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Sole purpose- Avoiding me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hiya- This message is specifically for Portland area footbaggers. When I first moved out here, I called the contact number for the Sole Purpose footbag club, and found out that the meeting is on Wednesday evenings at 7, at the gym in reed college. I then proceeded to go there for four weeks, and haven't seen so much as sipa sipa bag. I looked for footbaggers at the saturday market, to no avail, and called and annoyed Kenny some more, and was assured that Wednesday at seven was the real meeting time. However, I still haven't managed to find anyone out here kicking. Since I'm fresh out from the midwest, and have never seen a tournament or anyone who could compete "open", and am thus inexperienced, I have arrived at two possible conclusions, to wit: 1) A massive conspiracy amongst kickers is attempting to keep me from kicking. Sole Purpose members with walkie-talkies track my movements, and talented footbaggers hide in janitorial closets until I leave the area. 2) This whole listserv is lying, there are no great kickers, and everybody just makes up moves like blurry whirls and atom smashers and snickers while people like me try to figure out how someone could move their legs that fast. In any event, this obviously affects everyone, because either way, if I ever register for an event the tournament will have to be "mysteriously cancelled" to keep me from finding out the truth. Personally, I tend to lean towards the first assumption- a big conspiracy. As such, I probably place my life in my hands by exposing them. Maybe someone coule assuage my fears by just telling me when, at their best guess, footbaggers will start showing up at the weekly meeting again? Intensely paranoid, Nick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 22 02:39:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05431 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:38:44 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA05427 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:38:43 GMT Received: from ericwindsor@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5424) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA05422 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:38:42 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F103.hotmail.com [207.82.250.222]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA03369 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:38:47 -0700 Received: (qmail 26183 invoked by uid 0); 22 Oct 1997 02:39:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19971022023926.26182.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 204.30.73.239 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:39:26 PDT X-Originating-IP: [204.30.73.239] From: "Eric Windsor" To: scalf@utdallas.edu Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] swirls Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:39:26 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Ok. Who can give me the magic key for doing swirls? I see people do it >and make it look so easy, but if I ever hit it, it looks retarded. Makes >me think I'm doing something wrong. Any advice? >-Derric First what you must do is get clipper stall to clipper stall. Try to do it without planting your set foot. Do it over and over again. Next step is to try to swirl. What I did was set the bag not to high and lift my foot up so I could see my sole, as if I was doing a cross body sole. Imediatly after I made the sole I brought my foot back down as soon as possible, catching the bag. I would note that this is the way I did it doing the outside-in direction. The inside-in direction is is the same height, but the legmotion is different. I didnt point my sole up at all. Getting it over the bag seems harder the in-out direction. What do you think? Eric Windsor O /|\ o \\ _// ` ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Oct 22 03:05:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA05686 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 03:04:50 GMT Received: (from bin@localhost) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA05682 for freestyle@eniac.yak.net; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 03:04:49 GMT Received: from kilobit@hotmail.com () via =-=-=-=-=-= for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org (5679) Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) (fnord) by eniac.yak.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA05677 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 03:04:48 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (F5.hotmail.com [207.82.250.16]) by Market.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA03693 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:04:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 18355 invoked by uid 0); 22 Oct 1997 03:04:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19971022030449.18354.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.92.153.228 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:04:48 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.92.153.228] From: "Josh Penney" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] swirls Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:04:48 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Ok. Who can give me the magic key for doing swirls? Eric Windsor's advice is sound, except for this part: >I would note that this is the way I did it doing the outside-in >direction. The inside-in direction is is the same height, but the >legmotion is different. I didnt point my sole up at all. Getting it >over th