From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jul 3 07:56:40 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA02721 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:56:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mailqueue.netcomi.com (root@mailqueue.netcomi.com [204.58.155.200]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA11787 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:48:44 -0700 Received: from big-d (dal-tx9-11.ix.netcom.com [207.94.123.139]) by mailqueue.netcomi.com (8.8.7/8.8.5.fogel) with SMTP id CAA27677 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:50:02 -0500 x-queue: mailqueue.netcomi.com at Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:50:02 -0500 Message-ID: <359B3D7A.4CCE@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 02:57:46 -0500 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: derric@dallasfootbag.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] unique moves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org With worlds coming up and all, I thought it would be good to clear up some stuff. Is a pogo paradox mirage (no plant for the set foot) a distinct move from blur (plant the set foot)? I'm trying to think of a way to get as much variety as possible in my routine. Also, what about moves that land on different surfaces? Is a blur ending on toe distinct from a blur ending on an inside? I just want to know what the people actually doing the judging will mark as seperate moves. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks -D From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jul 3 08:03:24 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA02752 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:03:24 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA11911 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:02:13 -0700 Received: from [205.180.137.245] (dhcp103 [206.66.71.103]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14595; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <359B3D7A.4CCE@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:02:08 -0700 To: derric@dallasfootbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] unique moves Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:57 AM -0700 7/2/98, Derric Scalf wrote: >Is a pogo paradox mirage (no plant for the set foot) a >distinct move from blur (plant the set foot)? Yes, definitely. >Also, what about >moves that land on different surfaces? Is a blur ending on toe distinct >from a blur ending on an inside? Yes, definitely. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jul 5 03:00:27 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA07676 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 03:00:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from 56K-067.MaxTNT5.pdq.net [209.144.24.67] (HELO default) by rcr.wt.net (AltaVista Mail V2.0/2.0 BL23 listener) id 0000_008c_359c_de15_5d45; Fri, 03 Jul 1998 08:35:17 -0500 Message-ID: <007a01bda68a$a033f820$431890d1@default> From: "Jay T. Merritt" To: Subject: [freestyle] Kickin' in H-Town? Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:58:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org okay... I'm here in houston... having moved from austin where I got to kick and play net with Tina, James, Ariel, Ross and the rest of the Austin Crew... but now I'm back home in H-Town and a bit overwhelmed by the difficulty I've found in trying to find people to kick with... I'm aware of the existence of the 'Houston Flyers' or something like that... but my efforts to get in contact with them or getting any info whatsoever has so far been VERY unrewarding... Perhaps someone could shed some light on the Houston scene? thanks, Jay T. Merritt jtm@systemsevolution.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Jul 5 17:48:11 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA09085 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 17:48:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (root@diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06571 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 08:50:05 -0700 Received: from tuhuge.sfsu.edu (madmax-91.sfsu.edu [130.212.201.91]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16809; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 09:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980705094828.0069d78c@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 09:48:28 -0700 To: derric@dallasfootbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org From: tu Subject: Re: [freestyle] unique moves In-Reply-To: <359B3D7A.4CCE@dallasfootbag.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 02:57 AM 7/2/98 -0500, Derric Scalf wrote: >With worlds coming up and all, I thought it would be good to clear up >some stuff. Is a pogo paradox mirage (no plant for the set foot) a >distinct move from blur (plant the set foot)? It is but if the judge can't tell the difference then you are screwed. 2 Huge From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jul 7 15:14:11 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id PAA24042 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:14:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from footbag.pp.kolumbus.fi (hki-dk5260-8-211.kolumbus.fi [193.229.113.211]) by mail3.kolumbus.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA14527 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:27:17 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <35A1DC50.4360@pp.kolumbus.fi> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 11:29:05 +0300 From: Justin Sexton Reply-To: footbag@pp.kolumbus.fi Organization: Kolumbus X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-KBUS (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] London Freestyle Jam! References: <199711302350.XAA02132@eniac.yak.net.taz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Finnish Footbag Association Presents: ____________________________________________________________________ Name: The London Freestyle Jam When: 9.7.1998, at 12.00 (noon) Where: Downtown London, England Contact: Justin Sexton, footbag@kolumbus.fi, p. +++-358-9-342 2216. ____________________________________________________________________ The Team Finland (there are 10 of us this year) is traveling to the worlds this thursday and we will have a 7 hour layover on the Heathrow Airport, so we decided go and have a two-hour freestyle shred in downtown London. So anyone in London or nearby come on and join the shred. You will need to contact me soon because we are leaving early thursday morning. We won't know the ecxact place yet because none of us have ever been in London, but I bet we can easily find a nice spot. Don't know how the "Tommys" (the local police) will react, but if there are any problems we'll just play dum Finns who don't understand anything (shouldn't be too hard ;>). We will begin at noon. Even if you don't want to join the shred, come on and meet us, it is always fun to meet people around footbag. See you all in a week, (Can't wait!) Justin From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jul 7 15:15:18 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id PAA24062 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:15:18 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01204 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 00:01:09 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld6bk.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.153.116]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA02374 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980707005850.00688a38@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 00:58:50 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: [freestyle] Adds vs. DAFTT In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Adds? Accurately reflective of difficulty??? I developed an alternate, systematic rating system about a year ago--it would be great to hear anyone's feedback on it. Its actual adoption would have to involve many other changes in the judging system overall (including mandatory video-scoring, which we should have anyway), which most top players that I've spoken with seem very reluctant to tamper with (?!?!?!) But anyway, the actual ratings are 1) formula-based and 2) though not "perfect", more accurately reflective of difficulty by a very significant margin. (DK's post) >OK, everyone needs to try this experiment. Next time you kick, do >butterfly into osis into paradox mirage. Then do in-spinning mirage into atom->smasher, into double switch-over > >The add system leaves many moves with the short end of the stick. >"Adds are (mostly) bunk" I agree. THE D-GLANVILLE ALTERNATE FREESTYLE TRICK TABULATOR (D.A.F.T.T.): A trick, for purposes of both individual distinction AND rating, is defined here as WHAT OCCURS BETWEEN TWO CONTACTS (so clipset osis and toeset osis are here considered two different "tricks"). Difficulty ratings for individual tricks become more accurate since a set often has much to do with difficulty, even if the add system pretends not to count it. Unique tricks are thus also finally recognized as such; the current comp card would be replaced by a similar but new "variety" dimension. Note that individual trick ratings can't just be added up like adds, since the catch and set would be counted twice--so "don't count the set" still applies in a sense (totalling points ONLY--NOT in terms of rating individual tricks for difficulty or counting unique tricks). With this method, point scoring becomes virtually impossible to tabulate in "real time", but I strongly contend that this should all be done on video anyway, even for the existing system. * * * No points for delays. Shouldn't this be obvious? Delays make long strings MUCH easier, and also make virtually all tricks MUCH easier to hit (are you going to end your flurry with a toe kick?). And especially since most of y'all play with catcher's mitts on your toes. There are no "add categories", but most other things that presently rate an "add" in the current system rate a [0.5]. UNUSUAL, CROSS-BODY (that is, tricks ending X-body, sorry to X-body-rake enthusiasts), and most BODY moves ALL RATE [0.5]. (Including PARADOX: must be set X-body, and {NEW provisio!} the paradox dexterity must be the first dex to occur! No extra "body" points for flyers; the difficulty of interspersing flyers into combos would instead be reflected by the new "variety" dimension). Dexes and spins are a different matter. SPINS RATE [0.5], INSPINS OR SPINS DONE IN MULTIPLES RATE [1.0]. SINGLE DEXES RATE [0.5]. DEXES DONE IN MULTIPLES (OR WITH SPINS) RATE [1.0]. DUCKS/DIVES RATE [1.0]. "Dubbed" moves denote double-dex moves with a "floating" dexterity (e.g. butterfly swirl, dada) or have the bag passing one-way behind both legs (e.g. double-legover, dada, ripwalk). "DUBBED" DOUBLE DEXES RATE ONLY [1.5] FOR THEIR TWO DEXES, INSTEAD OF THE FULL DOUBLE-DEX SCORE [2.0]. EXAMPLES: tricks below are preceded with their most commonly used set (t/s = toeset, c/s = clipset) (tricks listed below all rate 3 adds) t/s butterfly stall [1.0] t/s osis [1.0] c/s paradox mirage [1.5] c/s whirl [1.5] t/s double-legover [1.5] t/s double-switchover [2.0] t/s atom smasher [2.0] c/s inspinning mirage [2.5] (tricks listed below all rate 4 adds) t/s butterfly swirl [2.0] c/s torque [2.0] c/s ripwalk [2.5] c/s blur [2.5] c/s down-double-down [3.0] c/s barfly [3.0] c/s flurry [3.5] c/s fog [3.5] You should be able to figure out and compare the rest for yourself. Questions and comments are very welcome. Freestyle Forever, aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jul 7 15:50:33 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id PAA16459 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:50:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05267 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:47:43 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld6fi.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.153.242]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA23835 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980707084424.00692a44@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:44:24 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: [freestyle] DAFTT correction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org A correction to the "DAFTT" explanation: paradox must be set from the OUTSIDE of the body, but not necessarily CROSS-BODY (as it currently reads). aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 02:14:43 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA19085 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:14:43 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mailqueue.netcomi.com (root@[204.58.155.200]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11558 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:01:02 -0700 Received: from big-d (dal-tx5-34.ix.netcom.com [207.94.121.162]) by mailqueue.netcomi.com (8.8.7/8.8.5.fogel) with SMTP id RAA03513; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:01:44 -0500 x-queue: mailqueue.netcomi.com at Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:01:44 -0500 Message-ID: <35A14A70.B2B@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 17:06:40 -0500 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: derric@dallasfootbag.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aaron de Glanville CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DAFTT correction References: <3.0.1.32.19980707084424.00692a44@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Aaron de Glanville wrote: > > A correction to the "DAFTT" explanation: paradox must be set from the > OUTSIDE of the body, but not necessarily CROSS-BODY (as it currently reads). > > aa I think this is a good point. It seems that the only reason for the paradox add is to give a little bonus to the harder moves. Personally, I think that if you set the bag from an outside, it is just as hard as a clipper set. Try mirage from an outside and then paradox mirage from a clipper. They feel the same. The same holds true for torque, whirl, etc. Just a thought. later. -D From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 06:03:21 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA14804 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:03:21 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Allman144@aol.com Received: from Allman144@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id IOGFa29473 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:32:59 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <4e0a4073.35a2e86d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:32:59 EDT To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle Digest V1 #422 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 72 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, due to all of this talk about adds and this and that, I need to put my two cents in. Although you all probably will cut my head off, I guess it is worth a try. When it all comes down to it, it is skill that wins. If someone goes out there and hits twenty four add moves in a row, it LOOKS beautiful and smooth, but we ALL know he has skill. If you have the skill, you will win. I don't care if you hit an osis from a toe or not, those little differences don't make a difference when it all comes down to it. I am sorry if this is hard to understand, I just think this whole dilemma is a lot simpler than everyone is making it out to be. See what I mean? If not, just kick me in the head in Montreal next week. Sincerely, Tony Glick Cleveland, Ohio From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 06:09:17 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA14822 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:09:17 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: JSBX@aol.com Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17769 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:49:03 -0700 Received: from JSBX@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id OXJPa11468 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:46:36 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <6177c2f4.35a2eb9d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:46:36 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] DAFTT is daft Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org No point for stalling? "No points for delays. Shouldn't this be obvious? Delays make long strings MUCH easier, and also make virtually all tricks MUCH easier to hit (are you going to end your flurry with a toe kick?). And especially since most of y'all play with catcher's mitts on your toes." That's bull. My friend Bruce has kicked Smudge a million times but hasn't stalled it, and you better believe it is harder to stall an atom smasher than it is to kick it. Another flaw with this system is the video component. Do you have any idea how long it would take to get the results of a round of freestlye much less an entire tournament? And getting rid of the paradox point may work for some moves, but definitely not all of them. The add- system is dated and has some serious flaws, we've agreed on that. But DAFTT is even more complicated and sounds like it is made to favor lower level kickers who don't want to put in the time to learn the more difficult aspects of the sport. Maybe I'm just bitter that my girlfriend is on vacation miles away from me. KeN From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 06:09:20 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA14835 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:09:20 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18902 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:52:32 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld675.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.229]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA23213 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980707224920.00695a9c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:49:20 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: [freestyle] Adds vs. DAFTT In-Reply-To: <35A1501B.119C@dallasfootbag.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19980707005850.00688a38@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19980707090238.006a3b6c@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Aaron de Glanville wrote: (responding to questions about new "paradox" definition in DAFTT) >> >> It may seem harsh at first glance, but let the proof be in the final >> ratings. My modified paradox definition (as with all other nuances of the >> system) is specifically in service of ending up with a more accurate >> difficulty score. The most important question should be: are the new scores >> significantly more accurate? >> >> One reason why this new definition may work for this system is that >> "paradox" as currently defined is actually made a little easier by a blurry >> set; the footbag is no longer "outside" of the body after a blurry set. >> (Derrick Scalf wrote:) > >If you think of a blur as a paradox mirage after a mirage set, that >seems to warrant the extra add for paradox. Sure, but that's the add system. Defining paradox a bit differently just happened to be necessary for arriving at this new (and more accurate) formula. But why theorize? Tabulate for yourself using my specifications, and tell me if the scores fit the tricks. > On to other stuff >though... I don't know if the true difficulty of moves can be broken >down into bits and pieces. For example, an in to out dex with your >right leg is easier if set from right toe than it is if set from right >foot clipper. (DAFTT ratings: [0.5] vs. [1.0]) >Or, it is easier after a pixie set than it is after a >reverse miraging set. (DAFTT ratings: [1.5] vs. [2.0]) >Because the same component dexterity (in to out >in this case) has different difficulty depending on what is done before >or after it, I find it hard to believe that any type of add system will >ever work completely. Derrick, you're just theorizing! Why aren't you trying the math before saying that it won't work? DAFTT was actually developed with the very concerns you're raising in mind--hence its no-contest superiority to the add system (in all but simplicity--and it's not even that complex). I'm the first to agree that no formula will ever be perfect. But I would go on to say that no rating system (even a figure-skating rating assignment) whatsoever will be perfect--there are too many nuances, discrepancies, and disagreements involved. What IS possible is a system more accurate than the add system (which even King Goldberg calls "broken"), and I believe that I've found a formula that "fixes" the most egregious problems in the current system. This is of course open for public dispute, but (once again) the operative question should be: are the DAFTT scores significantly more accurate? >Maybe we need some kind of system that looks at the order of the >components. Take a smear for example. In Job's notation, it is : >toe > same in [dex] > op in [dex] > op toe. >Instead of looking at the things in brakets as the components, a more >thorough system might be made by looking at the order of the >components. Say that a "toe > same in [dex]" (or pixie) is worth a >given amount. Then, look at the next step "same in [dex] > op in [dex]" >is worth another given amount. This would be a different amount from >"same in [dex] > op out [dex]", or "same in > same in". Do you see what >I'm getting at? A legover is harder to do after a spin than after a >pixie set. (c/s "spinning legover": [2.0]. Pixie-legover: [1.5]) The current system assigns them equivalent ratings (3 adds). We're not going to account for every nuance of difficulty, but we can cover a heck of a lot more. Look again at the end of my original post (comparing adds to DAFTT scores for typical 3 and 4 add moves). > Maybe some kind of system could even >take into account the difficulty of linking different moves. That's an excellent idea, and one that could definitely be developed (as with the new variety component, acknowledging so many more unique moves) around DAFTT scoring. If you have any questions about how to tabulate scores, or find any glaring discrepancies, please let me know! (But so far, you seem only to have said that formulas won't work; I may indeed need "fine tuning", but you'll have to tell me specifically what doesn't work, so I can tune). Thanks for all the conscientious feedback, Derrick! bye aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 06:54:40 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA23882 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:54:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19813 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:52:03 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld6j7.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.154.103]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA13151 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980707233732.006a90c0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:37:32 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle Digest V1 #422 In-Reply-To: <4e0a4073.35a2e86d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tony Glick wrote: >Well, due to all of this talk about adds and this and that, I need to put my >two cents in. Although you all probably will cut my head off, I guess it is >worth a try. When it all comes down to it, it is skill that wins. If someone >goes out there and hits twenty four add moves in a row, it LOOKS beautiful and >smooth, but we ALL know he has skill. If you have the skill, you will win. I >don't care if you hit an osis from a toe or not, those little differences >don't make a difference when it all comes down to it. I am sorry if this is >hard to understand, I just think this whole dilemma is a lot simpler than >everyone is making it out to be. See what I mean? If not, just kick me in >the head in Montreal next week. Since I'm promoting a new (and arguably more complicated!) system, I'll retort: How much do you know about the current judging system? In a perfect world, everyone would know exactly whose routine was "The Best" simply by watching all competitors. But life (and freestyle) is unfortunately a little more complicated than that. How do we determine, objectively, who has more "skill"? Compare Ryan Mulroney's and Scott Davidson's routines in the semifinals at Worlds last year. Ryan had a dropless routine, more adds, and badass choreography. Scott's routine was amazing, too, but won mainly due to technical details on the composition cards. There's a lot to be said for ranked component judging (as it sounds like you advocate)--but as long as the current judging system rules the day, routines will hinge on tiny details as much as raw "skill" (and hey, what about style, choreography...?). Regards, aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 07:23:14 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA16276 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:23:14 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20133 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:15:34 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld6j7.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.154.103]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA30817 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980708001341.006a81f4@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 00:13:41 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: [freestyle] DAFTT vs. adds In-Reply-To: <6177c2f4.35a2eb9d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org JSBX wrote: >No point for stalling? >"No points for delays. Shouldn't this be obvious? Delays make long strings >MUCH easier, and also make virtually all tricks MUCH easier to hit (are you >going to end your flurry with a toe kick?). And especially since most of >y'all play with catcher's mitts on your toes." >That's bull. My friend Bruce has kicked Smudge a million times but hasn't >stalled it, and you better believe it is harder to stall an atom smasher than >it is to kick it. Arguing this point would be a bit tedious. Simply put, delays make difficult combos easier to hit (a point beyond dispute). But the reasoning doesn't even hinge on this. Awarding no points for delays is actually one of the least controversial aspects of my system (even Steve Goldberg has backed me up on this, and he and I don't agree on ANYTHING...!). Awarding points for delays is without a doubt one of the most superfluous and outdated aspects of the current add system. >Another flaw with this system is the video component. Do >you have any idea how long it would take to get the results of a round of >freestlye much less an entire tournament? It already takes hours. Simplifying other things about the overall judging process, and using several VCRs (with "fast" slo-mos) could actually take less time. But more importantly, people don't get ripped off. It's too easy to make mistakes counting adds and doing the comp card--people do get shorted, all the time. By the way, did you know that video scoring IS mandatory at Worlds? > And getting rid of the paradox >point may work for some moves, but definitely not all of them. ??? Who's getting rid of paradox? > The add- >system is dated and has some serious flaws, we've agreed on that. But DAFTT >is even more complicated and sounds like it is made to favor lower level >kickers who don't want to put in the time to learn the more difficult aspects >of the sport. You're just theorizing. Talk to me after you've computed a few difficulty ratings. The system "favors" nobody, it's simply a formula that can provide a more accurate indication of a trick's difficulty than adds do (see examples at end of original DAFTT post) > Maybe I'm just bitter that my girlfriend is on vacation miles >away from me. I hear that one, dude. Thanks for the feedback aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 07:25:45 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA16310 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:25:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20208 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:21:24 -0700 Received: from [206.66.71.172] (dhcptest13 [206.66.71.172]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA25273; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980707233732.006a90c0@pop.mindspring.com> References: <4e0a4073.35a2e86d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:21:24 -0700 To: Aaron de Glanville From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds vs. DAFTT Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:37 PM -0700 7/7/98, Aaron de Glanville wrote: >How do we determine, objectively, who has more "skill"? That's the million-dollar question, but it makes no sense without the other part -- "...at shredding" vs "...at showcasing/competing"? There are two different dynamics at work here. One is determining how to truly classify moves so people can know how hard a trick or set of tricks is to execute. The other is determining how well a particular routine, done in competition, shows the player's mastery of *all* aspects of freestyle, not just difficulty. (Yes, there are other aspects.) I believe our need to categorize and score freestyle is artificial... that the sport will exist happily without a clear measure of who's better. We use the difficulty and composition system as means to get ourselves in the mindset of improving our games -- adding new components to tricks and combos to keep pushing ourselves and improving the sport and our own abilities. In addition, we use the competition format as a way for showcasing the sport to the public and giving ourselves a forum for focussing on the freestyle discipline in an otherwise net-dominated structured format. Freestyle competition is a moment in the limelight for freestylers, who would otherwise just shred all day on the sidelines (or off in another location where many would-be freestyle devotees won't happen to be inspired by them). I don't necessarily think the showcase format can be fully reconciled with the self-improvement, move-analysis tools we are discussing. The idea behind competitive freestyle has always been to bring a more classical air to the sport -- like figure skating or rhythmic gymnastics -- where the audience watches a structured show around the sport and where players actually spend time gearing routines to audiences (of all types of spectators) as opposed to other players. I don't really think it matters to most of the top players in the sport (whether they enter competitions or not) exactly who gets first, second, third, etc. More important to everyone is how well they hit their routine. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 14:45:49 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id OAA00128 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:45:49 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20649 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:58:18 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld6j7.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.154.103]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA25687 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980708005625.006a2328@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 00:56:25 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: [freestyle] DAFTT clarification: COUNT THE SET! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The DAFTT difficulty scores INCLUDE THE SET! Sorry if this wasn't clear. aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 15:07:57 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id PAA00232 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:07:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from fwns2.raleigh.ibm.com (fwns2d.raleigh.ibm.com [204.146.167.236]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24907 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:22:10 -0700 Received: from rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.172.47]) by fwns2.raleigh.ibm.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/RTP-FW-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA07038 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:22:14 -0400 Received: from ode1.raleigh.ibm.com (ode1.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.56.229]) by rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/RTP-ral-1.1) with SMTP id KAA35346 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:22:14 -0400 Received: from odent1.raleigh.ibm.com by ode1.raleigh.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-RAL) id AA25972; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:22:13 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980708102045.0091bb90@ode1> X-Sender: crvich@ode1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:20:45 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] Looking for a spot of fun Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'll soon be taking a few weeks off and travelling through the following states: Kentucky (Mammoth Caves), Indiana (Indianapolis/Lafayette), and Wisconsin (Milwaukee for the Metalfest!). My quad has healed well enough to shred again (with fear I kiss the burning darkness!), so I will be bringing my gear with me and looking for those of nimble toes. So if you're in any of these areas and want to do some styling of the foot-kind, let me know ASAP (after Friday afternoon, my journey begins). -- Ernest M. Crvich Have footbag, will shred. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 19:23:13 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id TAA21112 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:23:13 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from Au.oro.net (root@Au.oro.net [198.68.62.48]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29531 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:03:25 -0700 Received: from rcohn.oro.net (i389.oro.net [204.119.229.89]) by Au.oro.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11208 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:02:52 -0700 From: "Reuben Cohn" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds vs. DAFTT Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:59:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01bdaaa2$82756f00$59e577cc@rcohn.oro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I will have to agree with Steve Goldberg that people shouldn't get too hung up on the technicality of the sport. it doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how much fun you have when you play the game. people should worry less about adds and start measuring yourself with (this may be a little hard to grasp) YOURSELF!! I don't think there is a way to objectively tell who is more skilled, and I really don't think it matters. There is always room for improvement, and I think that you CAN objectively determine if you are better than YOU were a few weeks ago. I find it very satisfying just knowing that I can rely on a new combo, or that I can go longer without dropping the bag than a week ago. Freestyle competition should be about hanging out with your friends and having a good time. Part of that good time, of course, is the Compitition, but that should be secondary. I feel that this sport is one of the most appealing in the world to me simply because everyone has their own style, whether you're trying to hit egg-beater, leg-beater, blurry-whirl, mobius, or if you just want to hit a 23 move combo that consists only of flying moves. It's all about getting together and having a kick ass time with your friends. I know that everyone wants to be recognized for their spectacular combos, and NO ONE wants to get ripped off when it comes to judging. When it all comes down to it, just because you came in dead last doesn't mean that you're the worst player in the world (YOU know you could have hit that ONE combo and impressed the hell out of them) it just means that you didn't have a very good two minutes of compitition. but you just shouldn't let it bother you. I feel that if we start being too obsessive about compitition, then somebody is going to get Nancy Kerriganned, and I don't think any of us want that. :-) ps. if you want to kick me in the head, you'll have to come to NEVADA CITY!!!! -$treet From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 21:59:48 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id VAA15463 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:59:48 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA30335 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:52:03 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62) id <01BDAA87.9326C3A0@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:46:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle list'" Subject: [freestyle] World's Weekend Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:46:29 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello fellow freestyle fabulosos This post stems somewhat from my insular knowledge of the "goings on" at footbag tournaments but... A friend and myself are planning on rolling up to Worlds (10 hour drive) for just Friday and Saturday and I was wondering what the frequency and quantity of shred circles will be?? Will many people be too sore and fatigued from the initial few days to want to rip near the end of the week (but not the very end of the week)? Will we be left playing two-man and watching net matches while the rest of the freestylers lounge/practice routines/play net?? One of the reasons I ask this is that the first time my friends and I voyaged to a tourny (Funtastic '95) we were dumbfounded and deflated to see that EVERYBODY was playing net (a game we didn't even know existed) and NOONE was shredding. Expectations and fantasies about fields of footbag circles (hundreds of stylers) came crashing down. Anyway - I know that World's will be phatty!!!!!!! - I'm just prodding for some encouragement that we will be swamped with perpetual shredding outlets and will be consistently paralyzed and thrashed with random/unknown gnarly/contorted, master-spanking Fins and such. Basically - WORLDS!!!!! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 22:09:29 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA23845 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:09:29 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA31239 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:29:58 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA15612 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:29:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dal-tx50-12.ix.netcom.com(198.211.45.204) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015578; Wed Jul 8 15:29:01 1998 Message-ID: <004001bdaaae$387eafe0$cc2dd3c6@matt> From: "Matt Strong" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds vs. DAFTT Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:23:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org It seems to me that adds (no matter how you determine them) only matter at two competitions; Westerns and Worlds. I know that going guiltless, and probably eventually tripless, is a big deal to a lot of people. I can understand this. It is a way to judge how well you are doing and to get respect from your peers, but when I hit my first atom smasher, I'm going to feel a lot better about it then when I hit blizzard. My point is that we all know what moves are hard and what moves get shorted on the current add system. We also know what the cheesy moves are ( i.e. butterfly, osis, pdx mirage), but it took me a while before these moves became reliable, and I was damn happy when I could start going guiltless, even though at first that meant a lot of butterflies, osi ( or osis's), and pdx mirages. Now I try combos with 4's and harder 3's and try to reduce the number of easy 3's, and I also try linking moves together that I've never tried linking together. Freestyle is about pushing yourself and seeing what you can do. This may mean trying long strings with easy moves, or strings with hard moves, or strings with weird combos. In all 3 cases, adds have very little to do with it. When we change the add system (and it will probably go through some changes), we need to keep a few things in mind. Make sure the new system doesn't make judging harder, and try not to make it more complicated than the current one. Right now I know ripwalk is 4 adds because there are 2 dex's, a xbdy and a delay. In the DAFTT system, Aaron has it listed as 2.5, but according to the DAFTT description, I thought it was 2 (1.5 for the dex's and .5 for the xbdy), and I don't understand why flurry and fog are 3.5 instead of 3. Sorry for being so longwinded and rambling. Hope to see all of y'all ( the real debate should be why the rest of the country won't accept y'all as a real word) at worlds. -Matt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 22:39:54 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA16138 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:39:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU (hejira.hunter.cuny.edu [146.95.128.97]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00354 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:08:51 -0700 Received: from sara (nyc-ny82-32.ix.netcom.com [209.109.230.160]) by hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU (8.8.5/george96) with SMTP id SAA06468 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980708180914.007d93a0@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu> X-Sender: jpenney@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 18:09:14 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Overweight Josh Penney Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds vs. DAFTT In-Reply-To: <01bdaaa2$82756f00$59e577cc@rcohn.oro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:59 AM 7/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >just want to hit a 23 move combo that consists only of flying >moves. Ken Somolinos, NYFA. >It's all about getting together and having a kick ass time with your >friends. To quote Dennis J: There is much wisdom in these words my friends. >because you came in dead last doesn't mean that >you're the worst player in the world That player in particular will not be attending the world championships this year. I will see the rest of you there. >ps. if you want to kick me in the head, you'll have to come to NEVADA >CITY!!!! That reminds me.. does anyone know where the 'mazin Dave Hillis has been? JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 8 23:03:03 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA08487 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:03:03 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00763 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:39:49 -0700 Received: from [206.66.71.131] (dhcp131 [206.66.71.131]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18599; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:10:27 -0700 To: Ethan Klein From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] World's Weekend Cc: "'freestyle list'" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:46 PM -0700 7/8/98, Ethan Klein wrote: >Will we be left playing two-man and watching net matches >while the rest of the freestylers lounge/practice routines/play net?? As Eric Cote said in the posting he sent out the other day to the announcements list, freestyle will be RAGING on Sunday afternoon at the Tam Tam drum circle at Mount Royal in Montreal (yes, there's a reason those two names sound similar). Be there or be square. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 9 06:25:08 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA15808 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:25:08 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05875 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:52:22 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld68u.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.153.30]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA01030 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980708225028.0069e390@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:50:28 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds vs. DAFTT In-Reply-To: <004001bdaaae$387eafe0$cc2dd3c6@matt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 03:23 PM 7/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >It seems to me that adds (no matter how you determine them) only matter at >two competitions; Westerns and Worlds. I know that going guiltless, and >probably eventually tripless, is a big deal to a lot of people. I can >understand this. It is a way to judge how well you are doing and to get >respect from your peers, but when I hit my first atom smasher, I'm going to >feel a lot better about it then when I hit blizzard. My point is that we >all know what moves are hard and what moves get shorted on the current add >system. We also know what the cheesy moves are ( i.e. butterfly, osis, pdx >mirage), but it took me a while before these moves became reliable, and I >was damn happy when I could start going guiltless, even though at first that >meant a lot of butterflies, osi ( or osis's), and pdx mirages. Now I try >combos with 4's and harder 3's and try to reduce the number of easy 3's, and >I also try linking moves together that I've never tried linking together. >Freestyle is about pushing yourself and seeing what you can do. This may >mean trying long strings with easy moves, or strings with hard moves, or >strings with weird combos. In all 3 cases, adds have very little to do with >it. > >When we change the add system (and it will probably go through some >changes), we need to keep a few things in mind. Make sure the new system >doesn't make judging harder, and try not to make it more complicated than >the current one. Right now I know ripwalk is 4 adds because there are 2 >dex's, a xbdy and a delay. In the DAFTT system, Aaron has it listed as 2.5, >but according to the DAFTT description, I thought it was 2 (1.5 for the >dex's and .5 for the xbdy), and I don't understand why flurry and fog are >3.5 instead of 3. DAFTT counts the set in determining an individual trick's difficulty rating. DAFTT complicates things a bit with the "half-points" but the huge increase in accuracy of difficulty scores just seems worth it to me. But perhaps the assigned-rating "ice-skating" method is indeed the scoring method of the future. At any rate, implementation of DAFTT would involve simplifications in other judging areas (DAFTT, as it stands, is just a formula for more accurately rating a trick's difficulty; it's not an alternative to the entire add system). Thanks a lot for the excellent feedback, and your concerted analysis of DAFTT. See you at Worlds aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 9 06:53:12 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA08211 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:53:12 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (root@coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA06316 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:49:12 -0700 Received: from sloppo (Mizzou-AS6-31.missouri.edu [128.206.209.31]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA07079 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:49:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980709014641.006b6444@pop.coin.missouri.edu> X-Sender: jriely@pop.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:46:41 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Jeremiah Riely Subject: [freestyle] I need help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I've been playing footbag for a while and have been shredding for about 6 months. I've made a lot of improvement over the last few months but now I'm in a slump. I can hit a lot of 2 add tricks and a few 3s. I'm having trouble learning new tricks. I haven't learned a new trick for a long time and it's getting to me. I don't know what I should do to improve my game anymore. For a while I was in the "zone" and learning a new trick every couple of weeks but now I'm stuck. I can hit osis, butterfly, and whirl (sometimes). And those are all the 3 add moves I can do. I've been trying to learn whirl better and drifter and doulbe-leg over but I can't. When I practice I usually try to work on new moves but I get nothing out of that anymore, so I've just been trying to hit longer strings with as few toe stalls as possible in there. I can hit fairly long strings, 10-20 tricks. I was wondering if any of you can give me some advice on what I should do to learn more tricks. Thanks From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 9 07:01:47 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA12683 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:01:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Colin Dees Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01864 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:25:50 -0700 Received: from Pro2222@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id OOWDa06640 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1f510b4b.35a3ffe4@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:25:22 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] footbag shoe lacing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org unfortunatly, i can't get any Lavers, but i do have some ok skate shoes for now. and since i'm a dumb kid, i don't understand that lacing guide in www.footbag.org, so if anyone can dumb it down a bit for me, please reply directly to me. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 9 16:05:34 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA22294 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:05:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.70.126.131]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09491; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:08:18 -0700 Received: from [207.208.101.89] (d218.tcg1.interaccess.com [207.208.101.218]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA15825; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:08:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:08:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Steve Goldberg , Ethan Klein From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson at CopySetCenter) Subject: Re: [freestyle] World's Weekend Cc: "'freestyle list'" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! At 3:10 PM 7/8/98, Steve Goldberg wrote: >At 12:46 PM -0700 7/8/98, Ethan Klein wrote: >>Will we be left playing two-man and watching net matches >>while the rest of the freestylers lounge/practice routines/play net?? > >As Eric Cote said in the posting he sent out the other day to the >announcements list, freestyle will be RAGING on Sunday afternoon at the Tam >Tam drum circle. I'm there. Also, I hear, that park with the Tam Tam is a very short walk from the dorms (UQAM residences). Very convenient. However, I think Ethan was saying that he will be there on the Saturday and Sunday of finals. And yes, we will be shredding then too. At least I plan to be! (Can't wait to see you again Ethan, and everyone!) Worlds is such a blast, I can't wait to shred!!!!! See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 9 18:35:52 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA28115 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:35:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from proxyserv.proscape.com (mail.proscape.com [205.147.246.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13381 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:37:27 -0700 Received: by proxyserv.proscape.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62) id <01BDAB3D.EFB9D510@proxyserv.proscape.com>; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:31:53 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ethan Klein To: "'freestyle list'" Subject: [freestyle] Lalas Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:31:53 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org First of all - thanks for the responses to my last post about quantity/frequency of shredding during the Friday/Saturday/Sun morn of Worlds. I'm now more psyched than ever to roll up to Montreal for the Grand Daddy of all gatherings. I was just checking out the Adidas Footbag site and noticed that Alexi Lalas was pictured on the cover of the packaging. Does anyone know if he plays/knows about footbag? Is that nothing but a measly, manipulative marketing ploy? Also - Will there be tripless circles at Worlds this year? Is triplessness inevitable as the next evolutionary stage of high-level freestyle? (it might be a shame to see the absence of beasts such as toe blizzard and diving mirage) Has anyone (Ryan,PI,Aaron,Scott,Daryl,etc.) committed themselves to the insanity of forgoing moves 3 add or below ABSOLUTELY? Also - has anyone ever hit a quadruple dexterity move? (pixie paradon swirl, nemesis, barraging paradox barrage, blurriest swirl, gimpy paradon swirl, blurry legbeating swirl, etc.) Hasn't Eric W. hit blurry ducking barfly? Is that considered quad dexterity? Have those dudes (Tuan/Eric) tried shooting down doubles?? (Tu?) I GUESS?? That would count as quad dex?? I have yet to hit a triple dex but tried a ton of pixie paradons last night - to no avail:-( What do y'all think the easies triple dex is? Flurry? Paradon swirl? Blurries? Haze? Is there a special name for juggles within which every move is triple dex? I.e. "Wow, way to go duodexless!" I guess that sometimes I go "monodexless," which is pretty cool because it forces you to avoid butterfly/osis/p-dox mirage/whirl etc. and catapults you into trying those ripwalk-barrage-paradon-double leg over-smear-etc. combos - which require more energy but just feel so nasty. It's obviously all good though. It would also be cool/interesting/slightly bizarre to go guiltless while going dexless. In other words - maintaining guiltlessness while not performing any dexterities. I.e. osis - spinning clipper - eclipse - ducking clipper - osis - cross body soul stall - etc. Just letting loose some footbag thoughts. What are some of the cusp level (event horizon) moves that should be expected next week? Are we going to get a North Carolina raking showcase? Ethan This email morphed into a work-avoiding ramble-fest so feel free to flame or respond to any part of it. Peace...Yeast...Crease... Sheesh! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 9 18:59:04 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA28907 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:59:04 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14992 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:46:43 -0700 Received: from [206.66.71.131] (dhcp77 [206.66.71.77]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01502; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:46:40 -0700 To: Ethan Klein From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Lalas Cc: "'freestyle list'" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:31 AM -0700 7/9/98, Ethan Klein wrote: > I was just checking out the Adidas Footbag site and noticed that >Alexi Lalas was pictured on the cover of the packaging. Does anyone >know if he plays/knows about footbag? Is that nothing but a measly, >manipulative marketing ploy? Marketing. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 9 20:26:19 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA32433 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:26:19 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.70.126.131]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16357; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:04:29 -0700 Received: from [207.208.101.9] (d9.tcg1.interaccess.com [207.208.101.9]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA25570; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:04:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:04:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Steve Goldberg , Ethan Klein From: enlightener@footbag.org (Scott Davidson at CopySetCenter) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Lalas Cc: "'freestyle list'" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! At 11:46 AM 7/9/98, Steve Goldberg wrote: >At 10:31 AM -0700 7/9/98, Ethan Klein wrote: >> I was just checking out the Adidas Footbag site and noticed that >>Alexi Lalas was pictured on the cover of the packaging. Does anyone >>know if he plays/knows about footbag? Is that nothing but a measly, >>manipulative marketing ploy? Steve Wrote: >Marketing. Ya, well Val and I met him at the SuperShow in Atlanta last year at adidas house, and got to have dinner with him, and he is a very nice guy. He has played footbag, and knew that his picture was on the packaging, and I played with him for a short while. So he has played, but yes, it was a marketing decision. See ya! Scott. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jul 21 16:25:02 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA14316 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:25:02 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU (hejira.hunter.cuny.edu [146.95.128.97]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02115 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:22:00 -0700 Received: from sara (nyc-ny86-19.ix.netcom.com [209.109.231.211]) by hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU (8.8.5/george96) with SMTP id MAA12611 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980721122537.007db680@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu> X-Sender: jpenney@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:25:37 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Honored Josh Penney Subject: [freestyle] the BAP.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello freestylers and freestyle afficionados; Well, worlds has come and gone once again. We have seen the order and chaos, the comedy and tragedy and of course, a new side of Jason Langis. Thanks, nerd. Every year the Big Add Posse inducts the bright new stars into its roster; its ranks swell annually with fresh blood from the cutting edge. Unfortunately, I have prior commitments so I won't be joining them this year: ) Perhaps if I lose a few pounds the reigning champ will return some of my phone calls... In any case the Posse has taken on five new members, and they are (in no particular order): 'KaMcKenzie' Brian McKenzie, long overdue. Intergalactic Eli Piltz (That's "el-ee", like in the bible, folks) Kyle ( What's your last name, buddy? I know it ain't Crawford) Eric Windsor And introducing the first female of the squad; Carol Wedemeyer - How long has she been busting torque to paradox drifter? Congratulations to all of you for your hard work, you have been recognized among the best. see you on the playing fields, Sarcastin8r From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Jul 21 17:58:17 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA17996 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:58:17 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from trib1.trib.net (trib1.trib.net [12.10.112.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03510 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:33:22 -0700 Received: from www.mlerf.org (www.mlerf.org [12.10.114.3]) by trib1.trib.net (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.adoc) with ESMTP id ya281292 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:32:44 -0500 Subject: [freestyle] Lavers: A Failure Story Message-Id: <000000419182983869272@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:34:32 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.9 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id RAA17174 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, first off, welcome back from Worlds (to those that attended). It musta been a blast! On to the Lavers... I tried. I really tried. As I recover from my ankle injury, I decided I might as well switch to Lavers as long as I was gonna have to re-learn so much anyway. So I ordered my pair. I kicked with them for 4 or 5 months. They aren't that bad, they just don't measure up to the surface and stability of the kind of shoes I've kicked in for umpteen years. I never did get the hang of hanging onto a bag with those shoes. So much for the promise of instant gratification. I bought a pair of (eek) Nike Air Structure Triax shoes. Yes, the evil company itself. Not only that, but I bought them from a business in town I swore I would never do business with (the guy's wife is rather racist and ran for school board once). He was the only one that was willing to order the right size; everyone else just told me, "Sorry, we don't have any of that size, why don't you try this size?" Well, because I had tried on 4 pairs of that size and they don't feel right! It took almost 5 more weeks for the shoes to arrive. And then I played. I held the bag. My osis sets suddenly started coming back in to me instead of away from me. Those things have an inside surface almost as smooth and large as an aircraft carrier. I smiled. I shouted! YES!!! In the dozen or so sessions since I got the shoes and in between having another kid and all, I've suddenly sprung back to the level I was at before hurting my ankle. Those shoes are the closest thing to footbag magic I've ever experienced. I'm gonna go order another pair now, so I still have another when the style gets changed. And they'll be great for net, too. I didn't learn in Lavers or anything like the design. I'm not gonna try to adjust now. I like my massive running shoes and they aren't any heavier if you're wondering. I've even started hitting double dexterity moves (been working on those for about 10 years now). So sorry I can't be with all you young punks on the Lavers thing, but I've found something that is far superior for my use. The people that I kick with will testify: Lavers must not be right for everyone. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle - the "Computer Guy" Missouri Lions Eye Research Foundation Heartland Lions Eye Banks dfogle@mlerf.org - www.mlerf.org From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 22 02:32:01 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA06680 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:32:01 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11770 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:57:45 -0700 Received: from [199.212.154.185] (jhs.interlog.com [199.212.154.185]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10158 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:57:44 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Zac Howarth Subject: [freestyle] Re: Lavers Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org That is truely a masterful tale of footbag footwear. I personally don't have a clue about where to get lavers, and I'm reluctant to order shoes by mail, as sizes vary form company to company. So I went looking around for suitable footbag shoes. Most shoes suck. But the other day I saw a pair that looked absolutely perfect. I haven't tried them on, but I will. Anyways, they wer Vans TBs. I looked a little heavy (well, they're skater shoes, but whaddya gonna do), but what caught my eye was the surfaces. they have veritable cups on the inside and outside surfaces, along with a not-too-shabby toe box. So if anyone uses these shoes, I would love to hear about them. And some of you footbaggers out there might wanna take a lokk at them too. -Zacho. >Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > > Well, first off, welcome back from Worlds (to those that attended). It >musta > been a blast! > > On to the Lavers... > > I tried. I really tried. As I recover from my ankle injury, I decided I >might > as well switch to Lavers as long as I was gonna have to re-learn so much > anyway. So I ordered my pair. > > I kicked with them for 4 or 5 months. They aren't that bad, they just >don't > measure up to the surface and stability of the kind of shoes I've >kicked in > for umpteen years. I never did get the hang of hanging onto a bag with >those > shoes. So much for the promise of instant gratification. > > I bought a pair of (eek) Nike Air Structure Triax shoes. Yes, the evil >company > itself. Not only that, but I bought them from a business in town I swore I > would never do business with (the guy's wife is rather racist and ran for > school board once). He was the only one that was willing to order the >right > size; everyone else just told me, "Sorry, we don't have any of that >size, why > don't you try this size?" Well, because I had tried on 4 pairs of that >size > and they don't feel right! It took almost 5 more weeks for the shoes to > arrive. > > And then I played. I held the bag. My osis sets suddenly started coming >back > in to me instead of away from me. Those things have an inside surface >almost > as smooth and large as an aircraft carrier. I smiled. I shouted! YES!!! > > In the dozen or so sessions since I got the shoes and in between having > another kid and all, I've suddenly sprung back to the level I was at >before > hurting my ankle. Those shoes are the closest thing to footbag magic >I've ever > experienced. I'm gonna go order another pair now, so I still have >another when > the style gets changed. > > And they'll be great for net, too. > > I didn't learn in Lavers or anything like the design. I'm not gonna try to > adjust now. I like my massive running shoes and they aren't any heavier if > you're wondering. I've even started hitting double dexterity moves (been > working on those for about 10 years now). > > So sorry I can't be with all you young punks on the Lavers thing, but I've > found something that is far superior for my use. The people that I kick >with > will testify: Lavers must not be right for everyone. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 22 06:40:08 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA16304 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:40:08 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from firewall.telecom.co.nz (ingate.telecom.co.nz [146.171.254.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA17941 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:48:23 -0700 Received: by firewall.telecom.co.nz (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/940406.SGI.AUTO) for id QAA16888; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:48:57 +1200 Received: from ish.telecom.co.nz(146.171.1.1) by firewall.telecom.co.nz via smap (3.1) id xma003607; Wed, 22 Jul 98 15:47:12 +1200 Received: from telecom.co.nz ([146.171.53.205]) by ish.telecom.co.nz (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA20223 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:44:07 +1200 Received: from DOM#u#AKGATE-Message_Server by telecom.co.nz with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:49:50 +1200 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:54:22 +1200 From: Stuart MacFerson To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: Lavers -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Zac, Steve G has proberly had enough of explaining the virtues of Lavers....so it's my turn. It seems everytime we get together and shred there is some crazy ass stall by one of us which is a blatant advert for buying Lavers. They're light, cool (especially once some lining is removed), pretty cheap, durable and have just about unbeatable surfaces. Okay some people may for one reason or another don't use Lavers, and I'm not saying Lavers are the option. Some such as "Teva" Dave and Red Fred don't seem to be inhibited by not using Lavers. Derrick has been using his Nikes or whatever for a long time now so it's quite understandable a change at this point wouldn't feel right. Please take my advice Zac and order a pair of Lavers from from the WFA. The sizing seems fairly standard, we've ordered 3 different sizes and all fit as snug as a bug...no probs. So order some Lavers ASAP, modify them a tad (instructions included if ordered from the WFA), slap in a decent pair of inner soles and your'e away! Trust me, save yourself a lot of time and possible disappointment and get some Lavers now. Your footbag game will thank you. Stuart AFFC >>> Zac Howarth 22/July/1998 10:57am >>> That is truely a masterful tale of footbag footwear. I personally don't have a clue about where to get lavers, and I'm reluctant to order shoes by mail, as sizes vary form company to company. So I went looking around for suitable footbag shoes. Most shoes suck. But the other day I saw a pair that looked absolutely perfect. I haven't tried them on, but I will. Anyways, they wer Vans TBs. I looked a little heavy (well, they're skater shoes, but whaddya gonna do), but what caught my eye was the surfaces. they have veritable cups on the inside and outside surfaces, along with a not-too-shabby toe box. So if anyone uses these shoes, I would love to hear about them. And some of you footbaggers out there might wanna take a lokk at them too. -Zacho. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 22 18:33:33 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA08674 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:33:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from gravy.netcomi.com (fit.netcomi.com [204.58.155.64]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA31045 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:05:44 -0700 Received: (from casey@localhost) by gravy.netcomi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) id NAA11201 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:05:36 -0500 From: Casey Zacek Message-Id: <199807221805.NAA11201@gravy.netcomi.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] the BAP.. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980721122537.007db680@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu> from Honored Josh Penney at "Jul 21, 98 12:25:37 pm" To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:05:36 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Honored Josh Penney spoke forth with the blessed manuscript: > Hello freestylers and freestyle afficionados; < snip > > Kyle ( What's your last name, buddy? I know it ain't Crawford) It's Crawford, even though Eric introduced him as Kyle Coleman. < snip > -- Casey Zacek Senior Systems Administrator ICG Netcom Hosting From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 22 20:55:31 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA14364 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:55:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail.accnorwalk.com (mail.accnorwalk.com [207.87.221.24]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01594 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:44:48 -0700 Received: from vernd.geotrac.com ([207.87.222.34]) by mail.accnorwalk.com (Post.Office MTA v3.0 release 0122 ID# 564-48782U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA192 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:47:35 -0400 Received: by vernd.geotrac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDB58F.8BA46700@vernd.geotrac.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:41:16 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDB58F.8BA46700@vernd.geotrac.com> From: Vern DeHaven To: "'freestyle@footbag.org'" Subject: [freestyle] Thanks for the memories Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:41:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id UAA13951 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello everybody, I just want to thank all those at Worlds for an amazing weekend. Seeing what the sport is really about for the first time, I had to pick my jaw up off the ground numerous times, especially during that surreal Saturday night/early Sunday morning at Jardin des Etoiles and wherever we were in Chinatown. You people have more than just athletic ability... (Husted, Windsor, Irish, and Davidson, we hope you came in peace!) Yves, Steve, and crew, your work is appreciated! If you have never been to a tournament, go to one. Join circles you think you don't belong in. Never hitting either whirl or osis solidly, I nailed both the day after I got back because of what was learned from those circles. No one was a rock star there, just real people who want to see others succeed too. It was a cool shock to see the competitors getting excited about each others' routines. Cooperation ruled over competition. It seems some people already get the point. :) Hooked for good, Vern Some confuse being outwitted with insanity, most often when an absolute definition of sanity eludes them. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 22 23:03:38 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA19508 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:03:38 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from Au.oro.net (root@Au.oro.net [198.68.62.48]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03298 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:32:55 -0700 Received: from rcohn (i381.oro.net [204.119.229.81]) by Au.oro.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05699 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:32:52 -0700 From: "Disappearing Boy" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Thanks for the memories Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:23:14 -0700 Message-ID: <01bdb5bf$51513760$51e577cc@rcohn.oro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Vern DeHaven Wrote: >If you have never been to a tournament, go to one. Join circles you think you don't belong in. Never hitting >either whirl or osis solidly, I nailed both the day after I got back because of what was learned from those >circles. No one was a rock star there, just real people who want to see others succeed too. It was a cool >shock to see the competitors getting excited about each others' routines. Cooperation ruled over >competition. It seems some people already get the point. :) I LOVE YOU MAN!!!! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 22 23:04:03 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA19521 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:04:03 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f234.hotmail.com [207.82.251.125]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA01940 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:10:10 -0700 Received: (qmail 27435 invoked by uid 0); 22 Jul 1998 21:09:40 -0000 Message-ID: <19980722210940.27434.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.205.47 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:09:38 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.205.47] From: "Andrew Feuerdrache" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Lavers Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:09:38 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Zac, As much as I hate lavers, I too must admit they are probably the best all around freestyle shoe on the market. However if you are one of the few to hold out the best walking/skating shoe I've found is Jaunt from Vans. The toes could be better but I've found that I can get much more precise sets from them than Lavers, and they are fine to play with so long as you don't mind sacrificing some foot speed. Good luck. -Andrew P.S. congrats to the new members of B.A.P. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 22 23:50:07 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA21506 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:50:07 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from pilot009.cl.msu.edu (pilot009.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.109]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05222 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:46:28 -0700 Received: (from kenned57@localhost) by pilot009.cl.msu.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA25592 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:46:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199807222346.TAA25592@pilot009.cl.msu.edu> Subject: [freestyle] Freestyle in San Diego? To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:46:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cameron Dean Kennedy" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Greetings freestylers! i have just moved into the San Diego area, and was wondering if there are any players out there. I know when i was out here last year there was a few people, but not an overwhelming number. Also, does anyone know if George Rothrock still lives in the area, and does he still play ? A number with which to contact him ? later cameron d kennedy -- neXt shred: Saturday, july 25, 10:45 AM balboa park, museum of art From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 23 00:50:11 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA24092 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:50:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from node21.frontiernet.net (root@node21.frontiernet.net [209.130.129.196]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05817 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:21:26 -0700 Received: from default (srv-5-20.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [209.130.131.29]) by node21.frontiernet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA231456 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:15:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199807230015.UAA231456@node21.frontiernet.net> Reply-To: <@frontiernet.net> From: "sean barron" To: Subject: [freestyle] lavers Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:19:59 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org i personally use airwalk jim shoe suedes there extremley light and give you a good feal for where the bag is but everyones got htere own opinion i neeeded to weigh in with mine From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Jul 23 14:33:12 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id OAA24127 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:33:12 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12636 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:11:42 -0700 Received: from ms569185 (user-38ld6ev.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.153.223]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA05539 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980723020932.0068e800@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:09:32 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: [freestyle] worlds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org An enthusiastic ditto to Vern's well-spoken sentiment (was that *you* that I jammed with up on the 6th floor...?) WORLDS '98!!!!!!!! O * -+- '--^--' Love you all, thanks for the amazing party... aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jul 24 00:28:49 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA15420 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:28:49 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mailhost.onramp.net (mailhost.onramp.net [199.1.11.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14011 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:13:21 -0700 Received: from acsdallas.com (ppp15-19.dllstx.onramp.net [206.50.201.83]) by mailhost.onramp.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25360 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:13:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from james [144.19.62.4] by acs_dc [144.19.62.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP3.R) for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:13:14 -0500 Received: by james with Microsoft Mail id <01BDB607.FE0049E0@james>; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:03:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01BDB607.FE0049E0@james> From: James Roberts To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] TX on the freestyle map Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:03:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: footbag@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Way to go, Kyle, for getting us there. OK, you too, Eli. Are you still a Texan? Congratulations to both of you; and, to you again, Kyle, for Southern Regionals. Here comes D, E, & Matt -- Ross, if he'd get his knee cut - ~Chicken~ JR From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jul 24 00:46:26 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA16259 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:46:26 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from golden.net (golden.net [199.166.210.183]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24551 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:22:01 -0700 Received: from [209.183.132.189] (AS52-24-189.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.189]) by golden.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA00169 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freestyle@footbag.org From: kuchma@golden.net (Mike Kuchma) Subject: [freestyle] Routine hints Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey gang! I was wondering if any freestyle veterans (or semi-veterans) out there could extoll a few hints on a kicker who plans to enter his first tournament soon. Basically, I'm looking for some general tips as to how I should plan my routine. My basic questions are: a) do drops really make that much of a difference? b) should I use up all of my allotted routine time? c) What are the judges looking for? Any helpful hints would be greatly appreciated. -- Mike From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jul 24 00:48:45 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA16277 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:48:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Damon Mathews Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16254 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:26:22 -0700 Received: from PRODIDFB@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id OFEPa04161 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <316cd98d.35b755ef@aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:25:34 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] Still on fire to the point that the faint hearted turn away from the Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org With one member down the Charlotte triad has been reduced to two. We are sorry to regret that Barrett Long no longer kicks with the Charlotte Shredders. Instead he has been working to reduce his strokes on the golf course.????.... We are sad to see him leave the sport but he is burnt slap out. Since the proclaimation of rake tricks less than a month ago certain members (now that there is only two I'll just say me) have once again exploited the add system to create even more interesting and crazy looking tricks. For those of you who are not trick oriented in the head may not understand what I 'm about to say, but I'm hoping those of you who are advanced will catch on without me having to list trick notation or make up names for these tricks. The add I have exploited this time is the reverse whirling dex. The following tricks are currently being hit daily in Charlotte town and I'm having damn fun hitting each and every one. 1. rev. whirl(3adds) paradox(4dds) add a xbd rake(5adds) 2. Blurry rev. whirl(5 adds) backside(6adds) add a rake(7adds)OUCH,HOT!!!!!!!!!!! 3. Paradox symposium rev. whirl(5adds) add a rake(6 adds) 4. rev. whirling swirl(4adds) paradox(5adds) Blurry(6adds) Backside(7adds) WOULD MAKE KENNY SHULTZ SHIT HIS PANTS. (A personal note to Scott Davidson-----This trick will not cause LOCK UP) 5. Pixie rev. whirl(4adds) add a rake(5adds) I just love seeing numbers over 5, It makes me proud to be a shredder. I would also like to Congradulate the new members of BAP. Great work guys and gal. Especially Brian Mckenzie who should have been inducted last year and Carol wedemeyer who has been shredding mad crazy for years. (When are you getting in Steve?) Watch out, the blades get sharper everyday, Damon from Charlotte ps. Anyone out there besides myself that can hit barfly to barfly. Reply we've got lots to discuss. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Jul 24 07:31:10 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA00370 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:31:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU (hejira.hunter.cuny.edu [146.95.128.97]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA26904 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:23:45 -0700 Received: from sara (nyc-ny67-13.ix.netcom.com [209.109.225.141]) by hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU (8.8.5/george96) with SMTP id WAA14365 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723222827.007f29d0@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu> X-Sender: jpenney@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:28:27 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Honored Josh Penney Subject: [freestyle] Flaming (was: Still on fire, yadda yadda yadda) In-Reply-To: <316cd98d.35b755ef@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Primer to all readers: Generally I let things like this go but I was just ready for it tonight. I hope no one (esp Damon) takes offense at this but you just can't quite hear me giggle over the internet. I plan on setting up a site where you can click a button and hear the guffaws. At 11:25 AM 7/23/98 EDT, you wrote: >I'm having damn fun hitting each and every one. Glad to hear it. Now re-read the guidelines that define paradox and try this again. >1. rev. whirl(3adds) paradox(4dds) Hm. Butterfly. >2. Blurry rev. whirl(5 adds) Gee, this reminds me of ripwalk so much... I wonder why? >backside(6adds) add a rake(7adds)OUCH,HOT!!!!!!!!!!! You're making me LOL. What's a backside? Are you sure this isn't coming from that huge pit of poison in Butte, Montana?? (Dan, stay out of this!) >3. Paradox symposium rev. whirl(5adds) add a rake(6 adds) >4. rev. whirling swirl(4adds) paradox(5adds) Blurry(6adds) Backside(7adds) >WOULD MAKE KENNY SHULTZ SHIT HIS PANTS. >(A personal note to Scott Davidson-----This trick will not cause LOCK UP) >I just love seeing numbers over 5, It makes me proud to be a shredder. I just love reading it, I get reminiscent of 'Weird' Al Yankovich. God, that man is funny. At least he doesn't curse. Overtly. >I would also like to Congradulate the new members of BAP. (When are you >getting in Steve?) Steve Goldberg will be shooting for BAP when there are fifty more motivated and dedicated harder working sumbiat-ches than him pushing the sport forward, organizing tournaments and info services and media connections Basically, Steve spends his time making sure there's milk on the cold cereal that happens to be footbag. Want to contribute? Run a tournament. Teach kids to play. Promote the game. Put on demonstrations. >Watch out, the blades get sharper everyday, I couldn't have said it better. l8r- Sarcastin8r From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Jul 25 16:59:22 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA16604 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:59:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f215.hotmail.com [207.82.251.106]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA12406 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:57:30 -0700 Received: (qmail 21387 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jul 1998 08:56:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19980725085659.21386.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.205.69 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:56:58 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.205.69] From: "Andrew Feuerdrache" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Flaming (was: Still on fire, yadda yadda yadda) Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:56:58 PDT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu, 23 Jul 1998 the "Sarcastin8r" wrote: "Steve Goldberg will be shooting for BAP when there are fifty more motivated and dedicated harder working sumbiat-ches than him pushing the sport forward, organizing tournaments and info services and media connections Basically, Steve spends his time making sure there's milk on the cold cereal that happens to be footbag. Want to contribute? Run a tournament. Teach kids to play. Promote the game. Put on demonstrations." Some one tell me if I've got this wrong but isn't part of the idea behind the B.A.P not just that they are the best in the world, which is fairly undisputed, but also that they are pushing freestyle to its very limits. One could argue that Steve, and many others, just by organizing, teaching and encouraging, besides their talents actually playing are doing as much to advance play as many top players. However more importantly Steve in particular doesn't really need the recognition of the B.A.P. He has proven himself as a player by being there and competing year after year. Also I hope we all know that he is the reason that we are able to talk to one another right now about the sport that we love (and besides all that he has to put up with people like me). To all of you behind the scenes I thank you, I however due to scheduling difficulties will have to wait till world's 2000 to be ( hopefully ) the first player to compete totally guiltless. Soon to disappear off the face of the earth and nearly tripless -Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 29 15:39:44 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id PAA01565 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:39:44 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from firewall.telecom.co.nz (ingate.telecom.co.nz [146.171.254.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20670 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:03:19 -0700 Received: by firewall.telecom.co.nz (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/940406.SGI.AUTO) for id KAA24716; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:03:28 +1200 Received: from ish.telecom.co.nz(146.171.1.1) by firewall.telecom.co.nz via smap (3.1) id xma024479; Wed, 29 Jul 98 10:02:16 +1200 Received: from telecom.co.nz ([146.171.53.205]) by ish.telecom.co.nz (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA4821 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:59:01 +1200 Received: from DOM#u#AKGATE-Message_Server by telecom.co.nz with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:05:03 +1200 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:09:49 +1200 From: Stuart MacFerson To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] News Headline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Laver Suffers Stroke Australian tennis great Rod Laver was last night fighting for his life after suffering a stroke while doing an interview in Los Angeles with American television sports channel ESPN. The 59-year-old, whose 11 Grand Slam titles are one fewer than all-time leader Roy Emerson (makes a mean shoe also), was in critical condition in UCLA Medical Centre. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Jul 29 15:44:52 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id PAA01988 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:44:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from fwns2.raleigh.ibm.com (fwns2d.raleigh.ibm.com [204.146.167.236]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28280 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:39:17 -0700 Received: from rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.172.47]) by fwns2.raleigh.ibm.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/RTP-FW-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA22738 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:39:01 -0400 Received: from ode1.raleigh.ibm.com (ode1.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.56.229]) by rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/RTP-ral-1.1) with SMTP id KAA18040 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:39:02 -0400 Received: from odent1.raleigh.ibm.com by ode1.raleigh.ibm.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03-RAL) id AA32786; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:39:00 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980729103649.0092acb0@ode1> X-Sender: crvich@ode1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:36:49 -0400 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: [freestyle] The Midwest is alive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, I'm back from my journey and have some stuff to report: 1. In Columbus, Indiana, an up-and-coming shredder named Sam Andrew Hires lives and breathes the style. He spends his college days in Boston at MIT, where he reports the scene is dead. So if you're heading to either of these locations, make sure you contact him first (he's reading this list)...he's a rising star! 2. In beautiful Madison, Wisconsin, there's a team of dedicated, hard-working shredders (and all-around hoopy froods) that you simply *must* check out if you're up there. There's Matt (I'm not a cracker!), Ben (Benstein/Benfly), Adrian (Gumby-knee), and Jake (master of all things Pendular)...even more exist, but were not around during my visit. Keep an eye on the club list, they *should* be creating one soon. These guys were so inspirational that we were all hitting moves we'd never hit before (for me, it was Blurriest, woo hoo!). They were originally skooled by Scott Davidson, so they'll be pros in no time. 3. Suffocation blew me away at Metalfest...they are truly gods of their own kind of shred. By the way, Matt-san, you were absolutely right about Milwaukee. -- Ernest M. Crvich Durham, NC, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~ecrvich Have footbag, will shred.