From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 00:04:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA19854 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:04:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02220 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:28:32 -0800 Received: from jeremiah by mail.socket.net ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:01:45 -600 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:11:55 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Paradox- The set has to be a clipper, followed by the same [in/out] or >[out/in](not including legover dexs. ie. butterflys, and legovers) dexterity >with the bag ending on the opposite foot or the same foot in the cross-body >postion only. > >Clear enough? Under that definition, frontside paradox blur would get no paradox add. And I don't think that anyone thinks this move is not paradox. And what about paradox whirl, that ends on opposite foot cross-body, but that is left out in the definition. And that definition wouldn't work at all with paradox twirls. Later From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 00:04:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA19792 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:04:05 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02217 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:28:29 -0800 Received: from jeremiah by mail.socket.net ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:26:59 -600 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:37:09 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] getting technical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >they*ve been hiting going to keep it all strait? If anyone claims to be >an expert on this, please state breifly the definitions of these sets as >they now stand, so we can see how much of a ripple this would cause. Ok, I'll give it a shot. Blurry: a clipper set mirage followed by a paradox move. Blurry indicates paradox, so it would be redundant to say blurry paradox whirl, it is just blurry whirl, or clipper set miraging paradox whilr. clip > op in [dex] > paradox move Stepping: clipper set mirage to a plant to anything else. clip > op in [dex] > whatever Tapping: I wasn't aware that this is a set. I thought it was just one trick, the tapp. toe to rev mirage (plant) to same leg mirage to op toe. tap: toe > op out [dex] > same in [dex] > op toe [del] Bubba set: clipper set to op leg rev. mirage to anything clip > op out [dex] > whatever Gyrating: clipper set to a back spin to a same leg dex to anything. clip > (back) spin > same in/out [dex] > whatever Bock set: clipper set paradox rev. mirage to an inspin (I think) clip > same out [dex] > (in) spin > whatever Leaning Gyro: clipper set mirage to a back spin (or something like that, anyone else know???) clip > op in [dex] > (back) spin > whatever pixie: toe set to same in dex to anything toe > same in [dex] > whatever fairy: toe set to same out dex to anything toe > same out [dex] > whatever Well, that is all I can think of right now, it any of this is wrong please respond. I'm not sure about atomic, nuclear, tapping, bock set, and leaning gyro. later From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 00:04:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA19855 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:04:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02208 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:28:23 -0800 Received: from jeremiah by mail.socket.net ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:10:33 -600 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:20:42 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] somekindofaLegbeater? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Question: Correct me if I'm wrong, a leg beater is a reverse miraging >>butterfly? So I've been hitting this, except without the plant after the >>mirage. so...toe > op out > (no plant while) op out > op clip. Its really >>just one, swift motion. > >They trick your refering to is a reverse miraging refraction. Try it paradox. It can't be a refraction because there is no spin, it sounds like a reverse miraging symposium butterfly, or backside symposium legbeater. But the symposium add is discounted I'd imagine, just like in a dada curve. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 00:04:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA19794 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:04:05 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02213 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:28:26 -0800 Received: from jeremiah by mail.socket.net ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:24:37 -600 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:34:47 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: sets and moves - was Re: [freestyle] getting technical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I'm not trying to offend anyone. I have the utmost respect for all of >the people who have inspired me so much in this sport. But, everyone >has to admit that the naming of moves is a bit wacky as it stands. I >know most of the names of moves. If someone says ripwalk, legbeater, or >flux, I know what they mean. But, people who have never seen any of >these moves won't have a clue. Now, if you say "blurry set butterfly", >"atomic set butterfly", or "atomic set osis", people will understand. >That is if each of these sets has a definite meaning. To me, blurry set butterfly can't exists. Why not say clipper set miraging butterfly for ripwalk, or rev. miraging butterfly for legbeater, and rev miraging osis for flux. And if after the first part the second part could end on either side, specify which side it lands. Like pixie same side butterfly (parkwalk) and pixie butterfly. >The way things are now, if I say blurry set butterfly, people will start >freaking out because blury means paradox, or there isn't a real blurry >set, or ripwalk is a better sounding name, or whatever. Why can't we >get some kind of consistency? What is the harm in that? I don't care >if you don't like my way of naming or Andrew's or Aaron's, but pick some >way that is consistent. Everything is consistent if you name each element of the move at the most basic level. Does everyone see what I'm saying? For instance, you could say blurry whirl is a clipper set miraging paradox whirl. >One other thing.... I don't think any name should revolve around whether >or not a move is paradox. For adds, sure, but for naming, no. Why I don't understand why everyone has such a problem with blurry. It simply means clipper-set mirage to a paradox anything. That is what it means, why change it? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 01:26:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA11479 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:26:18 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f189.hotmail.com [207.82.251.78]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA03117 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:29:34 -0800 Received: (qmail 22841 invoked by uid 0); 1 Feb 1999 00:28:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19990201002854.22840.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.148.217.213 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:28:54 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.148.217.213] From: "KeN Somolinos" To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] sonic boom! Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:28:54 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi hi. Jeff wrote: > The move that I have been hitting starts with a right toe set then I >do a reverse mirage without ever planting the right foot. Anyone who knows >what this is please respond. Thanks! Symposium reverse mirage. A word of warning, though this move is pretty cool, don't ever do it in front of Josh Penney. Seriously though, as Eli mentioned, you can turn this into a really keen set if you skool it well. Ken "ceiling fan" somolinos nyfD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 03:52:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA27407 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:52:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: NikeekiN@aol.com Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04062 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:19:10 -0800 Received: from NikeekiN@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WVWOa20089 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:15:09 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <1060c910.36b50e2d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:15:09 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] Pogo paradox mirage Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 230 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey hey i was checking out the freestyle move list and found pogo paradox mirage, and was wandering why if the second dex was o-i it would only be four instead of five adds "Note: if second mirage done out to in the move is only worth four adds." thanks nick a From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 03:52:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA27413 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:52:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04140 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:40:19 -0800 Received: from hh1114112.direcpc.com ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA16970 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:40:49 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19990131214106.0092f9d0@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:42:29 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Matt Avery Subject: [freestyle] Im guessing theres no move? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What up guys? There sure is a lot of debate going on about move elements, legbeaters, mirages....the works. So you you just dont want to answer my question on this move or you dont know what you are talking about? SOMEONE OUT THERE....Lets hear a new move name...and if there isnt one I could brainstorm a couple good ones. toe> same in> op in>op out (no plant while)> op clip I dont think the no plant gets another add, clearly because its not harder to shred it without the plant. I just put it in for ya to see what Im talking about here: Not yoda, but a variation of it. Is there a name out there? Matt A PS- my cat was the only witness 30 minutes ago to my first 5 add combo. The "Yoda"move I was talking about to a pdox da da curve. hell. and yes. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 05:04:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA20958 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 05:04:14 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f79.hotmail.com [207.82.250.185]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05206 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:34:52 -0800 Received: (qmail 466 invoked by uid 0); 1 Feb 1999 04:34:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19990201043416.464.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.148.217.213 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:34:15 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.148.217.213] From: "KeN Somolinos" To: NikeekiN@aol.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Pogo paradox mirage Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:34:15 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hola! Nick wrote: >i was checking out the freestyle move list and found pogo paradox mirage, and >was wandering why if the second dex was o-i it would only be four instead of >five adds >"Note: if second mirage done out to in the move is only worth four adds." That would be because an out in dex makes it a shooting set. This is easier than the afore mentioned move, because the second dex is done with the help of the initial momentum. Look on the 96 shred video in the hotel lobby, where Tuan Vu is wearing Yellow shorts to see a shooting butterfly. Ken CF somolinos nyfD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 06:50:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA20291 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:50:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Aaron de Glanville Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com (smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05400 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:59:21 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld6di.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.153.178]) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA28659 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:59:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990131205454.006e7818@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:54:54 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? In-Reply-To: <19990131041927.20327.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Wasup y'all~ Ken wrote: >Some NC kickers tried to define paradox in the following manner: >> >>Paradox- The set has to be a clipper, followed by the same [in/out] or >>[out/in](not including legover dexs. ie. butterflys, and legovers) >dexterity >>with the bag ending on the opposite foot or the same foot in the >cross-body >>postion only. >> > >I disagree. what about paradox blur and paradox blizzard? Jeremiah wrote: >Under that definition, frontside paradox blur would get no paradox add. And I >don't think that anyone thinks this move is not paradox. > >And what about paradox whirl, that ends on opposite foot cross-body, but >that is left out in the definition. > >And that definition wouldn't work at all with paradox twirls. ...and then: >I don't understand why everyone has such a problem with blurry. It simply >means clipper-set mirage to a paradox anything. That is what it means, >why change it? Because of the lack of consensus over what paradox means or should mean, and the apparent impossibility of coming up with a clear, consistent definition (though I seem to recall Mr. Goldberg claiming to have formulated one--would you mind taking the time to post it?). Consider, too, that the current World Freestyle champion doesn't even subscribe to the above definition of "blurry". I recognize the above definition as being in consistent use, which is a small miracle in this fluxing, paradoxical realm of freestyle terminology. But I agree with Derric: "paradox" seems so poorly defined that integrating it into a 'set' definition might not be the best idea in the long run (I personally don't believe that a stepping *anything* should be considered paradox, since the set *automatically* places the footbag on the inside of the body). People are going to endlessly bitch and moan about *any* proposed change (change is uncomfortable), but the value I see in Derric's/Andrew's redefinition of blurry is that the term becomes more concretely defined, more applicable to more tricks, and more helpful in conveying tricks to novicies. Though, again, it's nice to see a certain amount of consensus already held in this case (blurry=stepping paradox). aa (Aaron de Glanville) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 06:53:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA25803 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:53:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.1.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05904 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:15:42 -0800 Received: from SPRYNETSPRY337196 (dd41-245.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.173.245]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA20403 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:15:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902010615.WAA20403@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Im guessing theres no move? Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:23:29 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org : What up guys? ah-hem...and gals... ;-) : toe> same in> op in>op out (no plant while)> op clip : I dont think the no plant gets another add, clearly because its not harder : to shred it without the plant. I just put it in for ya to see what Im : talking about here: Not yoda, but a variation of it. Is there a name out there? : : Matt A after the entire semantical debate on "blurry" and "stepping", I would have to call this a "smearing" butterfly. ;-) okay okay...I'm just messin' with you all, but that's how I would have to think of it if I was trying to pull it. man, I can't keep up with you guys no matter how much I skool! you footbaggers are insane that pull such difficult tricks that my hardest moves become sets to you! gonna kick tomorrow, Jane From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 17:06:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA05683 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:06:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [209.79.220.11]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10554 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:40:42 -0800 Received: from left (tc2-143.nccn.net [209.79.221.143]) by nccn.net (8.8.8/8.8.6-NR-RGS-99.01.05-) with SMTP id HAA24868 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:41:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000901be4df8$b759dae0$8fdd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: "footbag" Subject: [freestyle] Re:A New Miraje? Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:27:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I accidentaly invented a really cool move that I can't hit. But it's so cool that somebody has to hit it. toe set then do a superfast jump during that jump do a front back swirl or back front swirl(much harder) spin(gyro style) and do a pick up maybe do rake afterwards to keep the flow going from the pick up please hit this for me and for yourself and the whole footbaggin world to see. Has anyone thought of this move before or hit before? Thanks for the New Miraje? subject this list has gotten really interesting for me. Coolness LON From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 17:06:45 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA05696 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:06:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [209.79.220.11]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10561 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:40:43 -0800 Received: from left (tc2-143.nccn.net [209.79.221.143]) by nccn.net (8.8.8/8.8.6-NR-RGS-99.01.05-) with SMTP id HAA24871 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:41:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01be4df8$b86668e0$8fdd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: "footbag" Subject: [freestyle] 8 yes 8 ADDS Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:50:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This move is totally doable. Just incredibly hard and I've never done it. But someone can learn to hit this move. I call it Scrambler. set from left clipper do a gyro spin(only a 180) do a counterclockwise duck then on its way down do a butterfly symposium twirl ADDS 1 spin 2 duck 3 butterfly 4 front back swirl 5 symposium 8 osis Somebody please try this so you can see how possible it really is. There have been a lot of really cool moves on the list recently. Flux, New Mirages, symp atom smasher, royale, symp legbeater, tapping symp mirage, atomic whirl! If you're like me you can't do these moves and haven't even tried half of them. All the SHREDDERS should HIT THESE MOVES they're such cool ones. shredonLON From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 20:41:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA08078 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:41:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12783 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:47:25 -0800 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #33464) with SMTP id <0F6H00L01O6C4C@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:47:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:47:00 -0700 (MST) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: [freestyle] paradox and some other stuff To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Is it possible to have a paradox around the world? It would seem to me that a clip set> same in dex> same toe delay may as well be paradox. It involves the double hip pivot (I think). The only difference between it and a pdx mirage is the catch foot, but it's relation to a pdx mirage seems similar to the relationship between Around the World and Mirage: both two adds. I've been thinking about this for a while and didn't want to ask it knowing that paradox questions are always left with a bad taste in the mouth. Still, take this move for example (one which I've been hitting for a while) clip> op in dex> op in dex> same toe delay. It's just short of a Blur in that the catch doesn't go on the other foot, it stays on the last dex foot. Any thoughts? Also, there was a post about a month ago regarding the roster for the BAP. Someone wanted to know who was in it and I never saw a response, possibly due to the wholesale deleting I did after not checking my mail for a month. I'm aware of the big names and even a few of the smaller names, but I'd still like to see a listing if anyone feels up to it. One last thing, and this is for "The Enlightener". Have you hit tapping twirl? Toe set/ reverse mirage/ twirl as usual. If so, have you named it? I know there're all sorts of variations you've made on twirls and I'm quite proud of this one. I've only hit it about a half dozen (sounds better than 6) times and have played out of it only two of those times. Let me know. Eli, if tapioca isn't taken I'd like to use it here. Thanks, BRAD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 20:42:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA08099 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:42:20 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send101.yahoomail.com (send101.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.87]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13450 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:40:31 -0800 Message-ID: <19990201193859.19959.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.184.135] by send101.yahoomail.com; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:38:59 PST Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:38:59 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] somekindofaLegbeater? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey, hey Ken wrote: > I always had a problem classifying symposium moves where there are two > dexes. I have been hitting symposium atom smasher for a few weeks now, > but i do it with the second dex symposium. Nice! There are two ways to do symp asmasher; that is one of them. If you combine them, you can have a 'double symp asmasher' (2 symp adds). Do the first dex w/out the plant then quickly plant the opp leg and symp mirage. Never seen it hit before. -Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 20:42:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA08112 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:42:30 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send106.yahoomail.com (send106.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.43]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13473 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:42:25 -0800 Message-ID: <19990201194401.8316.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.184.135] by send106.yahoomail.com; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:44:01 PST Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:44:01 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] getting technical To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ---KeN Somolinos wrote: > Hey everyone. > Eli ended his e-mail about sets with: > >THE END... or is it? > > You honestly can't believe that, no matter how much anyone wants it. Sho nuf. I just meant the end of my posting. EZ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 20:42:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA08125 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:42:41 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA13711 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:01:30 -0800 Message-ID: <19990201200431.10861.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.184.135] by send103.yahoomail.com; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:04:31 PST Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:04:31 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] getting technical To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Bock set: clipper set paradox rev. mirage to an inspin (I think) > clip > same out [dex] > (in) spin > whatever Actually, that is called "Twin Spin". Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 23:20:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA24534 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:20:28 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send105.yahoomail.com (send105.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.128]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14980 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:55:29 -0800 Message-ID: <19990201205625.18077.rocketmail@send105.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.184.135] by send105.yahoomail.com; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:56:25 PST Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:56:25 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] re: BAP roster To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, I believe this is BAP in its entirety. Ahren "Torch" Gehrman Eric "Iron Man" Wulff Carol "She-Blade" Wedemeyer Ryan "Regulator" Mulroney Noah "Merlyn" DuBreil Scott "Enlightener" Davidson Paul "Hu-Mungis" Munger Josh "Chiseler" Casey Steve "Kosmo" Kramer Tuan "Disco Ninja" Vu Tu "Huge" Vu Eric "Wicked" Windsor "Big Add" Chad Devlahovic Tim "Stickman" Kelly Peter "Executioner" Irish Greg "GF Smoothie" Nelson Brian "Kamikenzie" McKenzie Red "Shred" Husted Dave "Highlander" Holton Eli "Monster" Piltz Daryl "Genzu" Genz "Rippin" Rick Reese "Kung Fu" Kyle Crawford Joey Schaffer Demitri -?- Dennis "D Money" Jones Kenny "Enforcer" Shults ... in no paricular order --Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 23:20:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA24540 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:20:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15332 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:20:18 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA25523 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:20:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox and some other stuff Message-Id: <000000502623000748809@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:20:09 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, Feb 1, 1999, 12:47:00 PM US CST KAPLAN BRADLEY M wrote: > Is it possible to have a paradox around the world? It would seem to >me that a clip set> same in dex> same toe delay may as well be paradox. >It involves the double hip pivot (I think). The only difference between Sorry I couldn't respond sooner, but the humor of the situation forced me to get out of my chair and fall to the ground, wrything in mirth. Three things: 1) I totally agree with you; I think if one gets paradox add, the other should, too; 2) It will never happen; 3) The popular reasoning seems to be that the difference in difficulty between either switching feet at the end or not switching feet at the end is the exact difference of difficulty that makes the move either deserve the extra add or not deserve the extra add (even though literally ALL the other elements of the move have already been performed). Paradox is a paradox because unlike any other move, the set matters and which side it is caught on after all other elements have been completed matters. It certainly makes freestyle exciting and wonderful, but I'm not sure I would want to run a business like that. And whoever asked about front-end paradox blur is right; because the bag should land back on original setting foot, the move isn't paradox according to the "Official Rules of Footbag Sports" written definition of paradox. So according to the definition and the above line (#3) of reasoning, a front-end paradox blur is only worth 3 adds. Can you say, "Ouch?" If any moves should qualify for TWO paradox adds, they are the 'front-end paradox blurry whatever' class of moves. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle the still-pliable (paradox) fossil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 23:20:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA24527 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:20:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14931 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:51:29 -0800 Message-ID: <19990201205434.26120.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.184.135] by send103.yahoomail.com; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:54:34 PST Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:54:34 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox and some other stuff To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Eli, if tapioca isn't taken I'd like to use it here. Tuff stuff, dude. Tapioca is a name for stepping mirage to tapdown (or vice versa), you know that, BIG Bad Brad. How about Tap Water, the move is just as sick/nasty as our Rocky Flats Plutonium Tap Water. Later Hosen, Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 1 23:20:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA24546 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:20:38 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA16162 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:32:31 -0800 Received: from alpha-1 by mail.socket.net ; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:20:45 -600 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:32:02 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] getting technical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> Bock set: clipper set paradox rev. mirage to an inspin (I think) >> clip > same out [dex] > (in) spin > whatever > >Actually, that is called "Twin Spin". > >Eli Ok, I wasn't sure. I think Red Fred told me it was a bock set. I thought that miraging in-spin was a bock set though. So what is a bock set? And does miraging inspin have a name? Thanks From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 00:01:45 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA01781 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:01:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Problems1@aol.com Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16882 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:23:53 -0800 Received: from Problems1@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id TFKUa03210 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:16:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:16:17 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] Useless Talents Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org 2 things: How is kicking a footbag any more useless than throwing a rubber-ish air filled ball through a hoop, or hitting a small fist sized ball with a stick? I think they all classify the same amount of uselessness. I would have been entertained to see Mark McGwire (sp?) sitting next to Eric the other day, had he been there and I was there to watch it, which brings me to my next point, Is Eric's big performance going to be put on any of the more popular footbag web pages? Matt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 00:04:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA10881 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:04:48 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from postal.interaccess.com (postal.interaccess.com [207.208.133.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17061 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:31:28 -0800 Received: from [207.208.34.21] (d110.nhe2.interaccess.com [207.208.34.110]) by postal.interaccess.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA00580 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:31:26 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:28:35 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Enlightener (Scott Davidson)" Subject: [freestyle] Madds Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! WRL - PWRL - SPWRL - BLUR - PDON - BLIZ - PMR (Interested? Read on...) The upcoming issue of Kickers Quarterly will be featuring an article about a proposal for a new freestyle system that is subtractive as opposed to additive, the way it is now. Part of that system will require players, Pro's only (intermediates will be doing ranked component), to submit the key moves of their performances based on a requirement structure. ...and we have talked about "Madds" as a "Modified Adds" system to create add values that are more in line with the realities of difficulty. This "Madds" system would require a group of top players to determine a value for each move accepted into the system (which would, eventually, be all of the 3 add + moves) to create a cannonical list. The problems are always... "Where do we keep the list", "How do we memorize all these 'new' values"... and that's what this post is all about. (BTW, the system that is being suggested by KQ goes something like this: Players are required to do a certain number of strings, and those strings have required minimum values... the judges know what to expect, and if the players don't hit what they submitted then deductions from the max score of 10 are applied... there are points also allotted to presentation items, which the judges will deduct from if the player does not complete them satisfactorily... it is more complex than that, but this is in a nutshell). The reason for this system is to create a standard of zero drops, reasonable difficulty, variety of moves and flow of presentation. I suggest, that if we create a Madd system that would help to give higher values to shunned moves like "Atom Smasher" and the like, and at the same time, reshape what a freestyle performance looks like... then we need to come up with a nomenclature that describes the strings that are "required" by the system. This being so the judges can see A) that the strings meet the minimum requirements, B) that the proper consideration is given to moves above and beyond the minimums, and C) so the players themselves can see what others are doing, and D) so it doesn't take so long to write out what the strings are. So here goes... Any move accepted into the MADD system would be given an abbreviation that is has one character per add, and is all CAPS. Some moves, because the abbreviations would duplicate each other or cause confusion will have lowercase letters inserted that don't mean anything in terms of the accepted add value of the move. i.e. for Stepping Butterfly and Symposium Butterfly the abbreviations might seem obvious... "SBTF" but then they would be the same, so for special considerations, we might give moves like those a lowercase like "SyBTF" vs. "StBTF" to help differentiate them... but I digress... Some samples from the top of my head (see if you can figure out what they mean, and their MADD values) RIPW BLUR BLIZ WRL SWRL PWRL SPWRL BLWRL GWRL SpWRL TORQ PTORQ STORQ GTORQ SpTORQ SBLWRL ATOM PMR SPMR And the list goes on, but it seems to me to solve the nomenclature issue. Also, while talking on this very list, we can use it to describe strings. Please poke holes in it. See Ya! Scott Davidson HyperTyper (sorry for the bandwidth) Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 00:31:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA11529 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:31:04 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vcn.bc.ca (vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17548 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:05:25 -0800 Received: from localhost (marigold@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA23825; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:01:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:01:24 -0800 (PST) From: Verhoef Anne To: Problems1@aol.com cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Useless Talents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 Problems1@aol.com wrote: > How is kicking a footbag any more useless than throwing a rubber-ish air > filled ball through a hoop, or hitting a small fist sized ball with a stick? > I think they all classify the same amount of uselessness. Well, professional basketball and baseball players get paid millions of dollars for their career choice. In theory though, those sports are just as useless as footbag. The only difference is a lot more people enjoy playing/watching mainstream sports than footbag which results in money. Adrian V. -- marigold@vcn.bc.ca From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 01:51:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA07846 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:51:35 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hejira.hunter.cuny.edu (hejira.hunter.cuny.edu [146.95.128.97]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18176 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:05:51 -0800 Received: (from jpenney@localhost) by hejira.hunter.cuny.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA03757; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:14:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:14:01 -0500 (EST) From: Deliciously Saucy Josh Penney To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Useless Talents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > How is kicking a footbag any more useless than throwing a rubber-ish air > > filled ball through a hoop, or hitting a small fist sized ball with a stick? > > I think they all classify the same amount of uselessness. > > Well, professional basketball and baseball players get paid millions of > dollars for their career choice. In theory though, those sports are just > as useless as footbag. The only difference is a lot more people enjoy > playing/watching mainstream sports than footbag which results in money. A basketball game lasts 48 minutes. Free throws =1 point regular shots, goaltending= 2 points really far shots = 3 points. To save time I'll just say all these sports have a definite end- two teams in direct competition, with the major goal being points, scored by getting the ball in a hole, goal, or out of the park - I'll admit baseball is weird. The game where you try to get rid of the ball- it's like tag, really. This is what many peoiple like about net- there is an end, and a loser and a winner. You can play for three hours and say, okay, you win, nice game, let's go have a beer. Freestyle is great, and I don't knock it, but when do you stop? Who wins? are there teams? by what criteria do you pick members? It's like playing, when you were a child- no real point in it except to have fun. and what is there to sell? uniforms? all we wear are shorts, socks, and one of two kinds of shoes (sorry Red)- sometimes a Tee. Ooh, I've just gotta get those Frank Gutowski/ Peter Irish '95 peach umbros shorts with the purple trim~! Are the new Air Manu wrist guards on the shelves yet? Where did I put my credit card? I'm just kidding, I know about endorsements and banners and wham-o tattoos. Another major reason that other sports have done so well comparitively is, since there is a definite winner, you can *make a bet* and maybe *make some money*. Sure, you could theoretically bet on anything, but how much betting is there on ice skating and gymnastics? More than I imagine? probably.. but nowhere near as much as there is in the horses, and how many of you put ten in on the superbowl this year? Every bar I went to in the last six months had a pool goin- that's a lot of bars, too. Happy guzzling; JP c: dk knows all!! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 01:51:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA07856 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:51:42 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f272.hotmail.com [207.82.251.163]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA18209 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:09:20 -0800 Received: (qmail 28133 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 01:08:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19990202010846.28132.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.148.217.213 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:08:45 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.148.217.213] From: "KeN Somolinos" To: dfogle@mlerf.org, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox and some other stuff Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:08:45 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Stylers Derric wrote: > >Paradox is a paradox because unlike any other move, the set matters and which >side it is caught on after all other elements have been completed matters. Don't forget bubba. ken "Ceiling Fan" somolinos nyfD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 07:06:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA15802 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:06:42 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f65.hotmail.com [207.82.251.205]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA19411 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:13:41 -0800 Received: (qmail 886 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 02:13:08 -0000 Message-ID: <19990202021308.885.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.25.108.130 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:13:07 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.25.108.130] From: "James Holt" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] re: BAP roster Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:13:07 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I might be really wrong but I thought the nick names were: these two were the only I noticed you are probably right but when did they change? > >Well, I believe this is BAP in its entirety. > >Ahren "Torch" Gehrman >Eric "Iron Man" Wulff >Carol "She-Blade" Wedemeyer >Ryan "Regulator" Mulroney >Noah "Merlyn" DuBreil >Scott "Enlightener" Davidson >Paul "Hu-Mungis" Munger >Josh "Chiseler" Casey >Steve "Kosmo" Kramer >Tuan "Disco Ninja" Vu >Tu "Huge" Vu >Eric "Wicked" Windsor >"Big Add" Chad Devlahovic >Tim "Stickman" Kelly >Peter "Executioner" Irish >Greg "GF Smoothie" Nelson >Brian "Kamikenzie" McKenzie >Red "Shred" Husted >Dave "Highlander" Holton "Teva" Dave Holton >Eli "Monster" Piltz "Intergalactic" Eli Piltz >Daryl "Genzu" Genz >"Rippin" Rick Reese >"Kung Fu" Kyle Crawford >Joey Schaffer >Demitri -?- >Dennis "D Money" Jones >Kenny "Enforcer" Shults > > >... in no paricular order > > > >--Eli > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 07:06:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA15809 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:06:56 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f101.hotmail.com [207.82.250.220]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA19644 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:35:58 -0800 Received: (qmail 27191 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 02:35:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19990202023517.27190.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.25.108.130 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:35:16 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.25.108.130] From: "James Holt" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Useless Talents Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:35:16 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, professional basketball and baseball players get paid millions of dollars for their career choice. In theory though, those sports are just as useless as footbag. The only difference is a lot more people enjoy playing/watching mainstream sports than footbag which results in money. I agree but you also have to think how long have basket ball and base ball been around. also baseball and basketball have a set thing to do there is really no expression, you just hit or throw the ball but in footbag you have a much greater choice of what you want to do. so why is basketball and baseball players getting all the money and the attention? I love footbag and I think it needs more TV recognition. well I better shut up... James ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 07:07:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA15829 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:07:04 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f252.hotmail.com [207.82.251.143]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20290 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:45:58 -0800 Received: (qmail 10850 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 03:45:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19990202034528.10849.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.148.217.213 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:45:27 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.148.217.213] From: "KeN Somolinos" To: jpenney@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Useless Talents Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:45:27 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh wrote in regard to the marketability of freestyle: >all we wear are shorts, socks, and one of two kinds of shoes Well, at least in public. CF nyfD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 07:07:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA15842 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:07:43 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA205 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:32:24 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:32:49 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE4E32.CBFADFA0.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] up's then down's Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:32:47 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 43 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo yo yo... Something was mentioned a couple of times over the last few days and is part of where I'm coming from regarding the whole set thing which we've been boppin around lately. " ***If the bag is not on the way up following an element or group of components, it/these is not a set.*** If "blurry" is defined by a component which follows the initial set-dex component and the bag has reached its apex or is on its way down following the "blurry" than it is not a set. Blurry torque... Blurry DLO... These moves, as described, still begin with a stepping set. Regardless of what one wants to call a group of elements within the move or the move itself. Blurry, no matter how people want to define blurry, doesn't negate the step set. The step is incorporated within it. I don't particularly like "blurry-whatever" if I can describe as "stepping-paradox-whatever". Iz no big deal to me really... just not my style. Used to be. I have since changed. Believe it or not... this is a relatively NEW theory. Although change is something I fear, I handled it somehow... ?~? heh heh :) What is important, I think, is that people understand that the step is not negated within what many call blurry moves. I encourage feedback, to the list only please, in any form. If you can stomach it that is... heh heh.. Also, step is more than a simple... x-body-op-in dex(plant). As tap is more than simply toe-op-out dex(plant). That's why they are not simply called miraging or rev miraging when used as sets. More on that tomorrow... same Bat time... same Bat channel. with love & respect 5 O D B From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 07:39:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA25536 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:39:39 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send102.yahoomail.com (send102.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.90]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22247 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:02:46 -0800 Message-ID: <19990202070521.22114.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.194.50] by send102.yahoomail.com; Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:05:21 PST Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:05:21 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] re: BAP roster To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ---James Holt wrote: > these two were the only I noticed you are probably right but when did > they change? > > >Dave "Highlander" Holton "Teva" Dave Holton > >Eli "Monster" Piltz "Intergalactic" Eli Piltz Well, my good buddy Dave does not want his BAP name to be a brand name of shoe. And I don't want to be named after a Beastie Boys song (as JP so eloquently stated, "it's like being named 'hot blooded'.") Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 08:59:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA12739 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:59:49 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f151.hotmail.com [209.185.131.214] (may be forged)) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22620 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:11:45 -0800 Received: (qmail 27168 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 08:00:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19990202080048.27167.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 139.67.16.57 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:00:47 PST X-Originating-IP: [139.67.16.57] From: "Frank Gutowski" To: magician@nccn.net, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] 8 yes 8 ADDS Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:00:47 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Lon, Doable?,don't think that it is symp.,can you give a good notation of this 8 add. I'm not mocking ya, just don't believe its symp., I hit what I thought was a symp. butterfly twirl two years ago, only to learn that it aint symp. - just checken.(regardless, one hell of a move no matter what.) da guillotine >From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 01 08:57:30 1999 >Received: from [140.174.206.7] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id MHotMailB87F27F51F704D101707D8CAECE0710D80; Mon Feb 01 08:57:30 1999 >Received: (from majordom@localhost) > by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA05696 > for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:06:45 GMT >X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f >Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [209.79.220.11]) > by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10561 > for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:40:43 -0800 >Received: from left (tc2-143.nccn.net [209.79.221.143]) > by nccn.net (8.8.8/8.8.6-NR-RGS-99.01.05-) with SMTP id HAA24871 > for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:41:10 -0800 (PST) >Message-ID: <000a01be4df8$b86668e0$8fdd4fd1@left> >From: "Lon Smith" >To: "footbag" >Subject: [freestyle] 8 yes 8 ADDS >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:50:12 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > >This move is totally doable. Just incredibly hard and I've never done it. >But someone can learn to hit this move. I call it Scrambler. > >set from left clipper do a gyro spin(only a 180) >do a counterclockwise duck >then on its way down do a >butterfly symposium twirl > >ADDS >1 spin >2 duck >3 butterfly >4 front back swirl >5 symposium >8 osis > >Somebody please try this so you can see how possible it really is. There >have been a lot of really cool moves on the list recently. Flux, New >Mirages, symp atom smasher, royale, symp legbeater, tapping symp mirage, >atomic whirl! > If you're like me you can't do these moves and haven't even tried half >of them. >All the SHREDDERS should HIT THESE MOVES they're such cool ones. >shredonLON ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 09:00:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id JAA12759 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:00:01 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from one.mind.net (one.mind.net [206.99.66.5]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA22680 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:21:41 -0800 Received: from 206.151.158.55 (ip49.mind.net [206.151.158.55]) by one.mind.net (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA14783 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:21:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B6B653.7FCF@mind.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:24:54 -0800 From: Forest Schrodt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] re: BAP roster References: <19990202070521.22114.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ---James Holt wrote: > > these two were the only I noticed you are probably right but when did > > they change? > > >Dave "Highlander" Holton "Teva" Dave Holton > > >Eli "Monster" Piltz "Intergalactic" Eli Piltz ---Eli wrote: > Well, my good buddy Dave does not want his BAP name to be a brand name > of shoe. And I don't want to be named after a Beastie Boys song (as > JP so eloquently stated, "it's like being named 'hot blooded'.") > > Eli Dave will allways be "Die-Hard" Dave Holton to me. He's made the name for himself through his dedication and die hard loyalty to dancin with that funky old bag. And that is what I have to say about that. Forest. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 09:07:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id JAA21875 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:07:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f151.hotmail.com [209.185.131.214] (may be forged)) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA23806 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:36:45 -0800 Received: (qmail 1906 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 08:20:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19990202082042.1905.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 139.67.16.57 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:20:41 PST X-Originating-IP: [139.67.16.57] From: "Frank Gutowski" To: jpenney@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Useless Talents Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:20:41 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sauce, If you are really, really, really, nice to me I will let you borrow my peach umbros at the next tourney I see you. Also, you gots hella skillz at responding to this list serve. You da man, as always. guillotine From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 17:59:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA22979 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:59:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: (qmail 2389 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 17:21:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19990202172127.2388.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 142.104.2.133 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:21:23 PST X-Originating-IP: [142.104.2.133] From: "Allan Haggett" To: magician@nccn.net Cc: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] conceptualizing Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:21:23 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Lon, >But someone can learn to hit this move. I call it Scrambler. >.... >set from left clipper do a gyro spin(only a 180) >do a counterclockwise duck >then on its way down do a >butterfly symposium twirl >ADDS >1 spin >2 duck >3 butterfly >4 front back swirl >5 symposium >8 osis >..... ________________________________________ Discovered the wonderful world of twirl, eh?:) Anyone who was reading this listing a couple of months ago might recall that I posted a very similar move: lft clip> duck(body)> op. out(dex)> op.f-b(dex)>prdx(body)> symp.(body)> osis(body,x-body,delay) Yes, I have hit this. QT footage forthcoming. I appear to have lost it recently.... but it will be back. Anyone attempting this BE WARNED: STRETCH your upper torso (along with the rest of ya' of course!) THOROUGHLY before and after trying. The reason I have not hit this recently is because my body is starting to rebel. Nasty a*s contorsion! X-training is starting to build some strength.... But I digress.... I reply to this because I think it is important to point out that conceptualizing moves is half the battle. I don't need to say(but I will) that footbag is a bug that gets inside your head. Once there it tends to take over a good portion of thought processing. Personally, I think about it more than ANYTHING. Fighting w/girlfriend, NOT fighting w/girlfriend(AHEM...), working, skating, sleeping, eating...... point is is that if you don't have a clear picture in your head of what you want to do, even if you can't necessarily pull it off right now, then it makes it harder to be creative when actually playing. Ironically,I have found that if I try to think about a move more than just picturing it just before trying it, I can't do it. Down-time; when your not playing, is the time to conceptualize and work out the logistics of the particular move components. Work it through, mime the motion. Give your brain time to process the order in which to put things. Then, when actually playing "let it all hang out" DON'T think about it, "just do it"(sorry) but it works for me. I think it has something to do with the meditative quality of footbag and the relation of thought process and muscle memory. Theorizing. On another note: Real-time(cable or fibre optic connection) international internet tournaments. MAD organizing and possibly unfeasible at this date and time, but possibly the future of tournaments(or a variety thereof..). Do your run in the comfort of your home town in front of a camera that broadcasts live across the planet! NOT at all suggesting that this should replace worlds or anything of the kind. Personal interaction in the communal sense is always the way it should be for deciding a world champion. Lets talk about it though. I'm getting kicked off this infernal machine now, sooooo....... for now, Allan Haggett Victoria, BC, CA PS. Lon, scrambling is exactly what that move will do to your spine if you don't stretch(even then, be really careful please!:)). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 2 18:34:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA04989 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:34:01 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Nageylum@aol.com Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28345 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:04:38 -0800 Received: from Nageylum@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id RECZa19752 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:01:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:01:25 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] # of tripless players Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey hey kickers, recently i was wondering about the # of people that are kicking tripless, and guiltless, i'm just looking for ballpark figures. also with gimpy moves, do they count as 2 moves, or is it just one move? Josh Childs From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 03:51:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA20850 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:51:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA32028 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:20:18 -0800 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA17396 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:20:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from dal-tx2-06.ix.netcom.com(207.94.120.134) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017308; Tue Feb 2 16:19:31 1999 Message-ID: <36B77D26.2B63@utdallas.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 16:33:10 -0600 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: scalf@utdallas.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] # of tripless players References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Nageylum@aol.com wrote: > > hey hey kickers, > > recently i was wondering about the # of people that are kicking tripless, and > guiltless, i'm just looking for ballpark figures. > I've been wondering about this too. In Dallas, there are three totally guiltless players. One half way guiltless, and one tiltless. As far as world wide numbers... who knows? Hundreds I'm guessing. > also with gimpy moves, do they count as 2 moves, or is it just one move? > I was talking with Matt about this just last night. Technically, a move is anything between two contacts. So, if you do a blurry knee kick (isn't that a gimp?) to a butterfly, that would be a one add move to a three add move. Since you can't have a pdx knee kick, gimps really make it hard to go guiltless. I think that a gimpy butterfly should be 4 adds though... I think that it should all count as just one move. That's my opinion. Anyone else? -Derric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 03:51:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA20853 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:51:53 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from smtp3.mindspring.com (smtp3.mindspring.com [207.69.200.33]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01187 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:56:38 -0800 Received: from smegma (user-38ld9ss.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.167.156]) by smtp3.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21501 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:56:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990202185633.007ddcb0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: ecrvich@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:56:33 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] re: BAP roster In-Reply-To: <19990202070521.22114.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:05 PM 2/1/99 -0800, Eli Piltz wrote: >> >Eli "Monster" Piltz "Intergalactic" Eli Piltz > >of shoe. And I don't want to be named after a Beastie Boys song (as I agree with your choice; being named after a Flotsam & Jetsam song is preferable. And no, there's no sarcasm this time...just egoism. Sorry folks. -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich Durham, NC, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~ecrvich Have footbag, will shred From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 03:51:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA20858 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:51:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send101.yahoomail.com (send101.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.87]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01500 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:28:41 -0800 Message-ID: <19990203002708.5767.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.250.164.121] by send101.yahoomail.com; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 16:27:08 PST Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:27:08 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] getting technical To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org --Jeremiah wrote: > Ok, I wasn't sure. I think Red Fred told me it was a bock set. I thought that > miraging in-spin was a bock set though. So what is a bock set? And does > miraging inspin have a name? Red Fred don't know no jive; he ain't gots no clue. A Bock (or Bach?, not sure) set *is* a miraging (stepping) in-spin. -Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 03:53:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA20889 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:53:21 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: SuperOwen@aol.com Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02428 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:55:55 -0800 Received: from SuperOwen@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 8YTQa23166 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:48:56 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <498f4e1f.36b7ab08@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:48:56 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] Bum a ride Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey guys and girls. I recently hit my parents up with the idea of spending summer vacation in Chi Town for worlds. That doesn't seem like it went over too well. And I was wondering if maybe someone that going to be passing through the Western Pennsylvania area if I can hitch a ride. Owen "Total Package" Parrish From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 03:53:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA20902 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:53:24 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jrichter (dal-tsa33-39.cyberramp.net [209.196.80.39]) by mailhost.cyberramp.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/ler-19990112-0936) with SMTP id UAA09483 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:14:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36B7B04A.1A23@cyberramp.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 20:11:22 -0600 From: Joe Richter Reply-To: jrichter@cyberramp.net Organization: Me X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] TRIP(ped) (Stupid Attempt at Play on Tripless) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello All, Well, there's been a great deal of talk here lately about 'tripless', BAP guys (gotta luv 'em), and other topics above the head of a mere mortal such as myself. So, I'll throw in an easier one for you guys, and hope to get a few tips : I've been flailing away at a Paradox Whirl for the past couple of months (OK - The winter has really cut back on my bagging time, but when I've gotten out, I give the PWhirl a try). I *feel* like I'm pretty close, but I've never actually gotten the bag to actually land on my catching foot. I think I'm missing some subtle delay or body twist somewhere in the whole deal. I generally seem to be trying the whirl dexterity while the bag is still too high. My question - Anybody got any good tips for what the 'secret' to the move is? Something I need to practice at strengthening? Or just a general, "Wait for the d**n bag stupid!". Give me a bit of a hand here in the cold, dark, dreary winter Derric, Eli, etc. If nothing else, be aware that I'll be asking you for tips if you make it for the Southern Regionals in April (I know Derric will be there, hope the rest of you make it too). Hope to see you all in April, Joe Richter Dallas, Texas From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 07:46:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA32565 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:46:39 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Allman144@aol.com Received: from Allman144@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id UPJCa01428 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:22:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <132d549c.36b7eb0e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:22:06 EST To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Useless Talents Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, one reason that baseball is more popular is that it is a past time. It has been around for almost 100 years. Has anyone seen "Field of Dreams?" That movie puts chills down my spine. James Earl Jones says (this isn't word for word) "Over the years the one constant has been baseball." He is right. I am not taking ANYTHING away from footbag at all. Most people don't know what footbag even is. In fact, the guy who lives next to me laughed when I said that footbag should be in the X-Games because he thinks it is boring to watch. I love footbag, I am addicted to it, and I hope that I will be kicking for a long time. But some sports just aren't embraced by the American public, like soccer. Think there is a relation there? That is my opinion. Kick on! Tony Glick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 16:39:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA06175 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:39:08 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA44 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:08:58 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:09:22 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE4F11.D5998900.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] freestyle "Tech Talk" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:09:21 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 87 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi everyone out there... Andrew McCarger, I apologize for loosin whatever cool I've got via your direction last week. Kinda makes me ill thinkin about it. Next time I'll try and be a little more tactful or at least put in a few he heez or ha haaz Now for anyone that wants to read on and on... I'm gonna throw a HEAP 'O' CRAP on this here steptapblurrynuclearatomic debate/discussion/tirade... So... If you're not sleepin already... this might help... haha I do not necessarily disagree with the LOGIC behind some attempted definitions for blurry, atomic, nuclear... etc. I do disagree with them being considered "sets" and exclusive of "tap" or "step". Why? I gave 1 point of my reasoning in a post yesterday. Today... 2. There is only one component in all these descriptions/definitions which start with the x-body-op in dex(plant). What is that component? It is not simply the x-body-op in dex (plant), although those are the add components, it is the x-body op in dex (plant) executed in the motion/style which some freestylers call, most likely named by Scott Davidson, the "step". THIS IS THE KEY TO MY POINT OF VIEW The x-body op-in dex plant can be mistakenly described as a mirage. The add components are the same. However, the components are executed completely differently. That is why it is not a "miraging" set. Someone could practice mirage for years and still have no clue how to execute a x-body-op-in dex plant in the "stepping" style. Trust me.. myself and a whole generation of freestylers are the supporting evidence. We did mirages for a long time. It still took a significant amount of time to learn x-body-op-in dex plant in the "stepping" motion necessary to execute moves like blur, ripwalk, blurry whirl and on and on. That is also why, when I responded to the list regarding someone's inquiry about the components of a step being the same as a mirage, I said.. "Yes. BUT, DON'T practice your mirages to improve moves with a step set. Practice your steps." Step, tap, nor many other components of moves and moves themselves can be fully described when simplified, broken down or abbreviated. That is part of the beauty of freestyle. Can't be put in a box. It's @#%&ing CRAZY! JUST LOOK AT THIS POST! O.K., I'm gonna wind this thing up with a little more evidence of how awesome freestyle is and how crazy I am... Break this down... STEP - Eric Wulff's description... x-body set from a DELAY(a flyer might be possible but hasn't been done yet) in which your op-in dex leg bares the brunt of the bodies weight during the launch. In other words, you begin jumping off your support/dex leg while your setting the bag. Therefore, assistance in the jump/launch is not provided by the set leg until the body's spring has been initiated by the support/launch/dex leg. The goal of this motion... too perform the launch of the bag, the body, and execute the in dex as close to the same time as possible "WITHOUT" pulling the bag under the dex leg before the dex actually happens. When executed well, the bag is still on it's way UP after this motion is completed. Hence, the bag has been SET. Why different than a mirage, which can also be x-body op-in dex plant? Mirage would be x-body set from a delay or "FLYER" in which the set is complete before initiating any dex or jump. Set foot is planted and bares the body's weight-(or.. does the jumping) so that the op leg can perform the in dex. ***The bag is on it's way down after the dex . NOT a set... it's a move.** Rinse theory and apply again to "reverse mirage vs tap" if desired. Eric 'iman' Wulff I know what you might be thinkin... Duh... who out there didn't know this already? Sure... ya say that now... heh heh Any and all comments welcome. Not to my e-mail directly... please... to the list only. anything? does anyone care about this topic anymore?? Did anyone to begin with.. sniff.. sniff From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 3 23:30:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA02137 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:30:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA12826 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:49:14 -0800 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #33464) with SMTP id <0F6L00H01GEBWA@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:49:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:49:22 -0700 (MST) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? In-reply-to: <3124beef.36b23892@aol.com> To: Damon Mathews Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Damon Mathews wrote: > Paradox- The set has to be a clipper, followed by the same [in/out] or > [out/in](not including legover dexs. ie. butterflys, and legovers) dexterity > with the bag ending on the opposite foot or the same foot in the cross-body > postion only. How about spin moves that have paradox in them? For example, spinning paradox mirage. Usually the set is (let's say) right foot clipper, spin to the right, in/out dex with the left, catch right toe. Wouldn't you still get the paradox if you set right toe, spin right, left in/out dex, catch right toe? I was practicing these two last night and it seemed to me that the spin element can take the place of needing to set clipper for a paradox. Try it and tell me what you think, I believe it's open to a certain amount of interpretation. ta ta for now, BRAD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 00:07:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA21179 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:07:25 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15564 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:32:53 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA26648 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:32:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Message-Id: <000000518303000929566@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:32:45 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Feb 3, 1999, 1:49:22 PM US CST KAPLAN BRADLEY M wrote: >in/out dex, catch right toe? I was practicing these two last night and it >seemed to me that the spin element can take the place of needing to set What Steve Goldberg, myself, and a few other IFAB members worked out awhile ago regarding this is that the spin element basically overwhelmed the paradox element; after spinning around like that and switching feet and all, the paradox element got lost. So we wrote a definition for paradox that says a spin before a paradox "subsumes" the paradox. This makes both paradox mirage and your "clipper-set-backspin-to-opposite-leg-mirage-to-opposite-foot- contact" moves both worth 3 adds. Eric "Ironman" Wulff, however, states flatly that it is paradox, making it 4 adds. And maybe it depends on the execution. I usually see people do the set and the spin and literally stand still on both feet for a fraction of a second, and then do a mirage. To me, that is NOT paradox. But I have seen people have to really contort to pull off the move, too, making it seem quite paradox. So what do you think: Should paradox be based on the execution, where it looks like poor timing that makes the move more difficult should be awarded an add, or should it just be one way or the other, 3 or 4 add, regardless? Who do you want to believe? Its not just a paradox, its also an enigmatic oxymoron! ______________________________________ Derrick "the fossilized paradoxical enigmatic oxymoron" Fogle for everyone else, it only matters what they do in life; for me, it matters where I was born and on which foot I will die From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 00:33:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA23428 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:33:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15987 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:57:43 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16170; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:58:03 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000518303000929566@mlerf.org> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:58:09 -0800 To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 5:32 PM -0600 2/3/99, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > What Steve Goldberg, myself, and a few other IFAB members worked out awhile > ago regarding this is that the spin element basically overwhelmed the paradox > element I actually never put my name on that particular tidbit. I have always agreed with Wulffie that paradox isn't "negated" by spins, but that *GYRO* moves (moves that follow the model of the original "gyro" in the loosest interpretation -- spins with an initial dexterity with the plant foot) are necessarily never paradox. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 01:46:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA17708 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:46:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA49 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:52:50 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:53:15 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE4F95.B10D1AA0.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] "Hot Blooded"... cool Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:53:13 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 5 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo Eli... Hey Josh... Everybody... I think "Hot Blooded" would be a cool BAP name. Just like "Intergalactic" was... "Ironman" ?~?~?~ From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 05:44:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA30277 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:44:39 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18933 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:02:53 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA16987 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:02:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Message-Id: <000000519163000942175@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:02:55 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Feb 3, 1999, 5:58:09 PM US CST Steve Goldberg wrote: >original "gyro" in the loosest interpretation -- spins with an >initial dexterity with the plant foot) are necessarily never paradox. Thanks for setting the record straight, except that you've got me totally confused now. Do you mean the initial dexterity with the setting foot? Or do you mean exactly what you say, which to me means that the move I described in the previous post is "necessarily never paradox?" What about a blurry gyro? ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle with the fossilized brain From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 05:45:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA30292 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:45:41 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send105.yahoomail.com (send105.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.128]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19626 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:38:48 -0800 Message-ID: <19990204034005.27974.rocketmail@send105.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.250.162.148] by send105.yahoomail.com; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:40:05 PST Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:40:05 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] "Hot Blooded"... cool To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Eric & y'all, > I think "Hot Blooded" would be a cool BAP name. Just like "Intergalactic" was... Yeah, reeaal cool. You might as well be named after a Black Sabbath song, er sumthing... ooh, wait, I take it back, oh no how could I, D'oh!, please Eric forgive me. Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 05:45:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA30305 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:45:44 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Damon Mathews Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20531 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:59:07 -0800 Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id IDYEa07005 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:57:52 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <68a9b921.36b928d0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:57:52 EST To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] An end to paradox Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org After several replies of obvious exceptions to my paradox definition, I now will lay to rest any last impressions of paradox from this side of the continent. First of all the style here in Charlotte NC is fast,( Double dexs and up, no more than one or two 3 adds between long strings of 4 and 5 adds.) Moves are sick ex.)) Jason's pulling fairy whirls, fairy paradons, and fusion all in one string, after numerous ripwalks, blurs, legbeaters, and paradox whirls BOTH SIDES. He pumps me up for pixie-paradons and pixie-double legovers, after long strings of pixie butterflies, ripwalks, blurs,paradons, double-over- downs, paradons, blizards, paradox whirls, paradox symposium mirages, etc... We have a fair understanding of tricks and concepts. Secondly by submitting a defintion for paradox we were beating a dead horse, I apologize. I have landed paradox: legbeater, atom smasher, symposium reverse whirling x-body rake, whirl, symposium whirl, drifter, dada curve, torque, symposium mirage, blender, double legover, blur, .......you get the point. We know a little bit about paradox, but to classify it by a single definition seems like a circular argument.... IT'S PARADOX BECAUSE IT"S PARADOX. Third we agree with Eric Wulff about paradox changing direction after a spin. Not negating the spin by actually adding another degree of difficulty to the move. EX.)) Gyro paradox mirage-4adds , gyro paradox whirl-5adds, gyro paradox torque-6adds. The gyro add is the same body add given in an osis, while the paradox add would be determined from where an osis would end had it been done instead of a gyro. Giving a gyro paradox move 2 adds of difficulty to build off of. Fourth, sorry for misleading any impressionable styler's searching for truth. Paradox is an advanced concept that well deserves the attention of freestylers, however its not worth beating into the ground. We are working hard everyday to explode on the scene at Worlds 99'. For those who don't know me, which is quite a few, I'm 23 years old and have been shredin' for over two years now. I went from toe stalls to tripless strings, with practice, study, more study, more practice, streching, sheer will, ambition, and speed!.............. Wish you could see the glory from such a boring axx town! As for PARADOX- RIP Damon "The Dominator" From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 05:52:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA30836 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:52:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20717 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:26:37 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18768; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:24:25 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000519163000942175@mlerf.org> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:24:33 -0800 To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 9:02 PM -0600 2/3/99, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > Do you mean the initial dexterity with the setting foot? Yeah, sorry, I meant "setting foot". Thanks. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 08:20:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA02296 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:20:36 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Aaaron de Glanville Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11314 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:48:41 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld625.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.69]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12403 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:48:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990203094426.006bc238@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:44:26 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] moves and sets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derric wrote: >Each move - or trick - has two parts. One is while the bag is on the >way up. This is what I think of as a set. The other part of the trick >is done while the bag is on the way down. This part, I think of as the >actual move. I-man wrote: >***If the bag is not on the way up following an element or group of components, >it/these is not a set.*** That sounds logical; I for one wouldn't mind seeing that provisio generally adopted. But I'm guessing that not *anything* performed "on the way up" necessarily qualifies as a set, as D.S. is suggesting (e.g. how much of a triple-a.t.w. is the 'set'?). And I can already see possibilities for gray area...I imagine someone could pull off a double-pixie 'set' by this definition, though the bag might not always be obviously "on the way up". >I do not necessarily disagree with the LOGIC behind some attempted >definitions for blurry, atomic, nuclear... etc. I do disagree with them >being considered "sets" and exclusive of "tap" or "step". It does seem, though, that people generally recognize "blurry" as meaning "stepping paradox". Though "stepping>[op side component]" seems more useful. And if 'atomic' and 'nuclear' simply meant 'rvs miraging [plant]' and 'pdx rvs miraging [plant]' respectively, as Eli seemed to suggest that they could, then they *could* be considered sets by your definition. On another matter: >The x-body op-in dex plant can be mistakenly described as a mirage. The >add components are the same. However, the components are executed >completely differently. That is why it is not a "miraging" set. I imagine that this is very much a minority opinion, which I believe to be right on target. The implications for how it would change move descriptions, however, are enormous. Freestyle theory...gotta love it... aa (Aaron de Glanville) From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 08:20:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA02299 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:20:36 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Aaaron de GLAnVille Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05321 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:51:30 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld77g.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.156.240]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA28963 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:51:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990202224713.006e8360@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:47:13 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] getting technical In-Reply-To: <19990203002708.5767.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > A Bock (or Bach?, >not sure) set *is* a miraging (stepping) in-spin. > I always thought Red was saying "BOX set", as in music (*bock*???). Who came up with the name? aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 17:19:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA12803 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:19:15 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Message-ID: <19990204162135.27035.rocketmail@send206.yahoomail.com> Received: from [209.108.197.65] by send206.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:21:35 PST Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:21:35 -0800 (PST) From: cory current Subject: [freestyle] Re: TRIP(ped) (Stupid Attempt at Play on Tripless) To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Howdy all! Greetings from a remote windy suburb of the windy city, and I do mean windy! Joe Richter wrote: > hope to get a few tips : > I've been flailing away at a Paradox Whirl for the > past couple of months....... I *feel* like I'm pretty > close, but I've never actually gotten the bag to > actually land on my > catching foot. I think I'm missing some subtle delay > or body twist > somewhere in the whole deal. I generally seem to be trying the whirl > dexterity while the bag is still too high. My question - Anybody got any > good tips for what the 'secret' to the move is? Something I need to > practice at strengthening? Or just a general, "Wait for the d**n bag > stupid!". "Wait for the d**n bag stupid!." Just kiddin. Here's some things that I've drilled and they seem to help. Try a *simple* toe set whirl. When I skooled the paradox whirl, I would toe set with right foot, dex with left, stall right. I usually set about chest height, possibly lower. You could really give yourself 2 angles of sets from the toe: 1. You could toe set directly in front of you, pivot your body about 45 degrees clockwise (so the bag is suddenly on the left side) finish dex/stall. 2. Instead of setting directly in front of you, start with your toe exaggerated to your right side, and set the bag kind of across your body, so it's parallel with your chest and crosses your lap. This will simulate a set from left clipper, but gives you more time 'cause you don't have to worry about getting your left leg from the set all the way to the other side for the dex. Once you get that motion, you should be able set from clipper and hit it. Also, when I do it, just before my left leg does the whirl dex, I jump off my right foot to position it for the stall. (not so much a jump, more like leaving the ground for a brief second, so i am actually completely in the air for a moment.) I like to do a x-body rake sometimes instead of the clipper stall for variety sake. (paradox whirling x-body rake, a.k.a Joey Marschal killer) Hope this helps in the crusade. Kickers, flame away == kick. Cory Current 1999 Chicago World's Director _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 17:19:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA12809 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:19:19 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: (from jpenney@localhost) by hejira.hunter.cuny.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA25457; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:38:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:38:33 -0500 (EST) From: Deliciously Saucy Josh Penney To: "'freestyle'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] "Hot Blooded"... cool In-Reply-To: <01BE4F95.B10D1AA0.ewulff@jsishipping.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Eric Wulff wrote: > Yo Eli... Hey Josh... Everybody... > > I think "Hot Blooded" would be a cool BAP name. Just like "Intergalactic" was... > In *that* case, I'd like to be known as Josh "Elderly Woman Behind the Counter In A Small Town" Penney. not. JP From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 17:27:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA12880 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:27:07 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27567 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:57:57 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18532 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:58:24 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:58:31 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Some freestyle list policies -- again Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Okay, one more time: (1) PLEASE don't make up your own subject lines unless you're starting a new thread. If you're replying to a message or a series of messages, always make sure the Subject: field of your outgoing message contains the same subject as the incoming message, with the possible exception of the "Re: " that goes in front. If you use your e-mail program's "reply to all" function to reply to messages that you want to go to the whole list, it will do everything right on this front. NEVER MANUALLY ADD "(freestyle)" OR "[freestyle]" to your subject line. It gets added automatically. (2) YOU MUST make your return address (the From: field on your outgoing e-mail) contain your *REAL NAME*. Only in cases where I know you cannot change your name will I allow you to post to the list; and in those cases you must sign your name to the end. The purpose of this list is not as an anonymous chat -- this is a way for freestylers to meet and learn from each other, etc. If nobody knows your name, the list is useless in my opinion, and since I'm the one who spends time processing requests to join and leave, I don't want to waste my time. (3) PLEASE don't include the *entire* message you're replying to when you reply to a message on this list. Always *edit* the message to remove all the comments you're not specifically replying to, and interleave your comments (separated by blank lines from the text you're replying to) with the most specific quoted comments from the previous message possible. And use one of the *standard* quoting mechanisms for e-mail replies; don't invent your own. (Angle-brackets ">" are the most common, but there are others and it's okay if you use them as long as they make it easy for readers to parse your reply out of the message.) (4) YOU MUST NOT reply to a digest. Compose a new message and follow (1) above to set the subject line correctly. (5) YOU MUST NOT post to the wrong list. This list (freestyle) is for freestyle. There are several other lists. When you mail to "list-name"@footbag.org, your mail is posted to the list named "list-name". THIS list is freestyle@footbag.org. So if you want to post to this list, send to freestyle@footbag.org. Don't send to some other address @footbag.org. Am I making sense? Read the info at http://www.footbag.org/discussion.html for more. Thanks. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 17:30:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA12901 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:30:08 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from ra.nilenet.com (root@ra.nilenet.com [204.227.31.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20832 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:38:00 -0800 Received: from unknown (slip27.den.nilenet.net [206.247.98.27]) by ra.nilenet.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id WAA20989 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:35:46 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Daryl Genz" Subject: [freestyle] '99 Heart of Vegas Jam Update Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 22:54:08 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id GAA30874 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Freestylers: Just a "quick" update on the 99 Heart of Vegas Freestyle Jam. As a reminder, this is a Non-Competetive Event! There is no "sanctioned competition", though, as in any event with players of this caliber, I would guess that there might be a hint of competition in the circles. ;-> Up-to-date info is always at: http://www.footbag.org/events/ Dates: Feb 19,20,21 (Fri Night, Sat, Sun) Host Hotel: Stratosphere Hotel: 1-800-998-6937 Alt Hotel: (Across Street from Strat) Aztec Inn: 1-702-385-4566 Alt Alt Hotel: As is standard at all tourneys, there will be x-tra floor space available in many player's rooms (possibly for a small % of the room cost). Contact players when you get out there and well work it out. Current Attendees: Adrian Dick (Yes, from New Zeland!!) Stuart McFerson (Yes, from New Zeland!!) Rippin' Rick Reese Richard Abshire Big Add Chad Ryan Sanders (The Tattoo Guy) Eli Piltz David Holton (?) Eric Windsor Kyle Crawford Ariel Santesteban Steve Goldberg Forest Schrodt Joe Marshall (?) Eric Livesay (??) Derrick Scalff (?) Canyon (Abshire's Friend) Jonathan Schneider Mike Joust (sp?) Chris Greycheck (sp?) Steve (From Idaho Falls w/2-3 other shredders) Brian Fouria Itay Kahaner Gordon Gilges (net player) Ryan Mulroney & Kenny Shultz (Possible but not likely). Myself (Daryl Genz) And ... YOU. Order your ticketes today. You can still generally get decent deals on plane tickets w/a two week advanced notice. Jam Times: Friday Night @ 9:00 pm (For All players that are still sober after the wedding) Saturday "Morning", Early Riser Jam 1:00 p.m. Sunday, 1:00 pm Saturday & Sunday Night Jams As Required All Jams will be located in the parking lot across from the Stratospphere (Weather & Light Permitting) or in the Stratosphere Parking Lot Structure 3rd +/- Floor (Weather & Light Not Permitting). For Specific Info: Posting event info in the Stratosphere Casino Lobbie is prohibited. (I found this out last year.) If you need to find out more specific info, your best bet is to try and contact one of the players. Contact myself (Daryl Genz), Richard Reese, Adrian Dick, or Stuart McFerson by asking for the room # at the front desk of the Stratosphere or Eric Windsor at the Aztec Inn. (These are people I know are comming for sure and I will keep them informed). I will also keep Mr. Goldberg informed so we can post times/locations on the www. Footbag Net? Gordon Gilges is planning on being in the area and wants to play some net. I don't recall there being any good grassy areas adjacent to the hotel, but if anyone is interested, maybe we can work something out. If you think you might want to turn to the "dark side" and play net, be sure and give Gordon an e-mail: Gilges@hotmail.com Special Event: What: Rippin Rick Reese's Wedding to Sherri Rutledge When: Friday @ 2:30 pm Where: Las Vegas Wedding Garden 200 W Sahara (Appearantly quite close to Stratosphere) All Jam attendees are invited. No special attire or gifts are necessary! There will be several family members in attendance as well. Reception location has yet to be decided (& will probably be a last minute decision) I'll be arriving around 7-8 on Thursday evening and there may be a small, short jam that night depending on who's up for it. Hope to see you there, Genzu Daryl Genz P.S. Sorry for the long post. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 22:12:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA11667 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:12:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Problems1@aol.com Received: from Problems1@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id FEOYa20089 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:12:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:12:52 EST To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [freestyle] "Hot Blooded"... cool Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dear Footbag Discussion Group, In a message dated 2/4/99 12:00:39 PM, jpenney@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu writes: << On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Eric Wulff wrote: > Yo Eli... Hey Josh... Everybody... > > I think "Hot Blooded" would be a cool BAP name. Just like "Intergalactic" was... > In *that* case, I'd like to be known as Josh "Elderly Woman Behind the Counter In A Small Town" Penney. not. JP >> Sounds good, as long as I get to be Matt "We Threw Gasoline on the Fire and Now We Have Stumps for Arms and No Eyebrows" Cross (It's a NOFX song) matt cross From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 4 22:12:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA11661 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:12:15 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mc-qout2.whowhere.com ([209.1.236.38]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA30768 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:21:56 -0800 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by theglobe.com; Thu Feb 4 13:21:31 1999 To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:21:31 -0000 From: "Ian Dubman" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets X-Sender-Ip: 128.206.120.62 Organization: E-Mail @ The Globe (http://www.globe-mail.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>The x-body op-in dex plant can be mistakenly described as a mirage. The >>add components are the same. However, the components are executed >>completely differently. That is why it is not a "miraging" set. Hehe...So, is this a stepping toe delay?? That just seems funny... I agree with Aaron on this, I think you just call it a mirage and be done with it. I don't even want to get into the whole blurry-stepping-bubba jazz. Late, Ian MUFF "Free web-based email available now at http://www.theglobe.com" From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 01:48:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA14285 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:48:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01056 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:18:53 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld60e.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.14]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06554 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:19:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990204171431.006e9078@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:14:31 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Hehe...So, is this a stepping toe delay?? That just seems funny... I agree with Aaron >on this, I think you just call it a mirage and be done with it. I don't even want to >get into the whole blurry-stepping-bubba jazz. That's not *my* position, just for the record. I'm acknowledging that most *do* call it a mirage, but agree with I-man that this is problematic, from a "freestyle theory" angle. Not everyone finds these terminology discussions useful, but I think most of it is ultimately aimed at improving our communication. aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 06:44:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA13219 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:44:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA43 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:34 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:36 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5086.2966DF40.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:34 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 137 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Y'll, Brad wrote... >Wouldn't you still get the paradox if you set right toe, spin right, left >in/out dex, catch right toe? I was practicing these two last night and it >seemed to me that the spin element can take the place of needing to set >clipper for a paradox. > Try it and tell me what you think, I believe it's open to a certain >amount of interpretation. Interesting... I haven't done spins from a toe in such a long time I almost forgot. This is a good insight. I have posted my theory on paradox within spins before and I believe it applies to any set... Sounds CRAZY... right? Perhaps? BUT Check Dis Out!.... Try this in your head.... a. Set... Any set... b. Spin 180 degrees (Don't in-spin if your x-body setting. Theory worked for that AND stepping/blurry's also but lets not get into it yet.) O.K.- so back to SPIN 180 degrees c. STOP - Where is the bag? WHERE IS THE BAG AT THIS POINT? d. It is right where it would be if you set from a x-body. You now must make the paradox adjustment as you would normally if you wanted to do a paradox. That is the second 1/2 of the spinning paradox. Most spinning moves aren't actually 360 degrees between contacts as it is. Especially if the spin is not paradox. From a x-body set the spin puts the paradox on the other side of the body. From any set the paradox is on the side of the counter spin. Try spinning paradox DLO or tork and you will really feel it. Don't have to really try it. VISUALIZE... I am convinced that anyone who takes the time to think about this and TRY IT will see, feel and understand what I'm talking about. Let me know... Also, the Gyro concept as currently loosely understood just screws with so many freestyle theories. I don't get it. When referring to a paradox within a "Gyro" as currently defined Derrick wrote... >What about a blurry gyro? Exactly!! what about it. Couldn't be. I say.. No Gyro mang... I say.. Spins and paradox spins only This is another reason "Gyro" as a concept is really weird. I don't know where this came from. Anyone? Gyro is Gyro butterfly... period. To me anyway. Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 06:48:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA13255 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:48:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA43 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:34 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:36 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5086.2966DF40.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:34 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 137 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Aaron wrote.. >It does seem, though, that people generally recognize "blurry" as meaning >"stepping paradox". Though "stepping>[op side component]" seems more useful. Actually, I've heard significant #'s of both. I for one originally thought blurry did not imply paradox although the move BLUR does. also said... >And if 'atomic' and 'nuclear' simply meant 'rvs miraging [plant]' and 'pdx >rvs miraging [plant]' respectively, as Eli seemed to suggest that they >could, then they *could* be considered sets by your definition. right... BUT that is not what Eli suggested. He suggested that the atomic/nuclear set is defined by the element which follows the initial out dex. Right Eli?? i.e. - tap mirage is neither nuclear or atomic. Therefore, both nuclear and atomics begin with a tap or paradox tap according to my theory. I think you gotta rinse and lather again my man Aaron. also said... >I imagine that this is very much a minority opinion, which I believe to be >right on target. The implications for how it would change move >descriptions, however, are enormous. Cool! But why are they enormous? A blur is still a blur. A mirage is still a mirage. you lost me here. Examples please. Ian wrote... >Hehe...So, is this a stepping toe delay?? That just seems funny... I agree with Aaron on this, I think >you just call it a mirage and be done with it. I don't even want to get into the whole blurry-stepping->bubba jazz. Too late my friend. You're In! Hah! Some of y'll ain't reading very carefully. There is NO "step" in a "mirage" and there is NO "mirage" in a "step". A stepping toe delay is a different move than a mirage and it is a move. Just like a stepping-op-osis is not a tork. Moves are not discriminated by there add components or there "Job" abbreviations. They are discriminated by what we do with their components. How we execute em. Why do you think a symposium mirage is not a mirage? Not because it's another add. The extra add came after someone figured out that the... toe>op in>op toe.......... with this "jumpy no set-foot plant thing" was different than a... toe>op in>op toe.......... with a plant. STEP is NOT MIRAGE... MIRAGE is NOT STEP... whew... Heapin it on... y'll eric "Smoke on Da Wata" wulff From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 06:48:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA13750 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:48:39 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA43 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:34 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:36 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5086.2966DF40.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] getting technical Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:34:34 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 137 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Aaron said.... >I always thought Red was saying "BOX set", as in music (*bock*???). Who >came up with the name? Peter came up with the set and the name. Bock... like Sam Adams Double Bock. What he was drinking the night before said "set" was invented I believe. Your Basic Bock - x-body>op in>in-spin... not >paradox in-spin... just in-spin... I'm serious about that paradox comment there... heh heeeeeeeeeeee weeeeeeehooooooo Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 07:30:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA23478 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:30:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA04402 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:03:18 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld60e.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.14]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA19794 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:03:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990204225910.006e4854@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:59:10 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets In-Reply-To: <01BE5086.2966DF40.ewulff@jsishipping.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>It does seem, though, that people generally recognize "blurry" as meaning >>"stepping paradox". Though "stepping>[op side component]" seems more >useful. > >Actually, I've heard significant #'s of both. I for one originally thought >blurry did not imply paradox although the move BLUR does. I am definitely partial to a definition of "blurry" that does *not* imply paradox (i.e. blurry butterfly = ripwalk). >also said... > >>And if 'atomic' and 'nuclear' simply meant 'rvs miraging [plant]' and 'pdx >>rvs miraging [plant]' respectively, as Eli seemed to suggest that they >>could, then they *could* be considered sets by your definition. > >right... BUT that is not what Eli suggested. He suggested that the >atomic/nuclear set is defined by the element which follows the initial out >dex. Right Eli?? i.e. - tap mirage is neither nuclear or atomic. > Therefore, both nuclear and atomics begin with a tap or paradox tap >according to my theory. I think you gotta rinse and lather again my man >Aaron. I'm wid ya, my man. This was Eli's *original* suggestion. But his last post carefully qualified his suggestion, saying that the definition could well be expanded; this was all I was referring to. >also said... > >>I imagine that this is very much a minority opinion, which I believe to be >>right on target. The implications for how it would change move >>descriptions, however, are enormous. > >Cool! But why are they enormous? A blur is still a blur. A mirage is >still a mirage. you lost me here. Examples please. Examples: toe blur, which is defined as such *because* of the so-called "miraging" set. Smear is actually the true toe-set correspondent, as is smudge for blizzard (which motion resembles a blur more, smear or toe blur? And why...?) This is why Sunil insists that my "outside>same in-out dex>same swirl" is not a swifter (swirling drifter), because a drifter, set from a clipper, is supposedly a miraging clipper. Are or aren't these moves defined by their sets? >Some of y'll ain't reading very carefully. There is NO "step" in a >"mirage" and there is NO "mirage" in a "step". I wish. But a "step" for many is necessarily a mirage. > A stepping toe delay is a >different move than a mirage and it is a move. Shouldn't stepping toe be "clip>op in-out dex[plant]>same toe" and *blurry* toe "clip>op in-out dex[plant]>*op* toe"? Just asking. More than enough for now. Peace aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 16:11:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA00447 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:11:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA09713 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:21:12 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA10243 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:21:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox? Message-Id: <000000526893001072881@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:21:21 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org ('freestyle') Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, Feb 4, 1999, 11:34:34 PM US CST Eric Wulff wrote: >c. STOP - Where is the bag? WHERE IS THE BAG AT THIS POINT? >d. It is right where it would be if you set from a x-body. You now must What I get from this analysis is that the actual set does not matter, but where the set comes from - or really, what the set forces your body to do - does. So try this for just a regular paradox mirage: instead of a cross-body set, set from an outside delay on that side of the body. Still paradox? My point is that if you allow one to be paradox, you should allow the other to be paradox as well. PS: what I meant regarding Blurry Gyro is CrossBody Set -> Back Spin -> SameLeg In-Out dex -> OppositeLeg In-Out Dex -> Opposite leg contact/delay. A blur prefaced with a backspin; normally set from a cross-body; the leading "set-backspin-leadingleg mirage" is often referred to as a gyro. It does not negate the paradoxness of the 'switched side' paradox after the backspin. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 16:11:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA00463 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:11:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hejira.hunter.cuny.edu (hejira.hunter.cuny.edu [146.95.128.97]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA09803 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:27:01 -0800 Received: (from jpenney@localhost) by hejira.hunter.cuny.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA10736; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:35:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:35:35 -0500 (EST) From: Deliciously Saucy Josh Penney To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990204225910.006e4854@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Aaron mumbled something to the effect of: > This is why Sunil insists that my "outside>same in-out > dex>same swirl" is not a swifter (swirling drifter), because a drifter, set > from a clipper, is supposedly a miraging clipper. Are or aren't these moves > defined by their sets? They are for the purpose of building add components. But if you can't agree with this: Eric tooted: > > A stepping toe delay is a different move than a mirage and it is a move. Then there's no way you'll accept the idea that moves with different sets, or moves that are executed differently [i.e. stepping clipper vs drifter or, for that matter, anything 'extra crispy' vs. 'original recipie' (see Sunil about that)] are moves all to themselves. > Shouldn't stepping toe be "clip>op in-out dex[plant]>same toe" I thought the move you referred to was just called a 'pickup' or a 'toe pickup'. Of course, with the above tenet, I suppose it should be 'pickup truck'. This idea really adds lots of complexity to the naming convention; what was once individual preference and style now becomes an exhausting list of nearly identical movements. A bluury torque by any other name... J'LWBTCIAST'P But Matt Gross has a much cooler name than I. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 16:11:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA00453 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:11:24 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f76.hotmail.com [207.82.250.182]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA08607 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:28:32 -0800 Received: (qmail 18589 invoked by uid 0); 5 Feb 1999 12:28:20 -0000 Message-ID: <19990205122820.18588.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 141.84.137.139 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 05 Feb 1999 04:28:20 PST X-Originating-IP: [141.84.137.139] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 04:28:20 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi stylers, Aaron wrote: >>I imagine that this is very much a minority opinion, which I believe >>to be right on target. The implications for how it would change move >>descriptions, however, are enormous. To which Eric responded: >Cool! But why are they enormous? A blur is still a blur. A mirage >is still a mirage. you lost me here. Examples please. and later to a different post: >There is NO "step" in a "mirage" and there is NO "mirage" in a >"step". A stepping toe delay is a different move than a mirage and >it is a move. Just like a stepping-op-osis is not a tork. Moves are >not discriminated by there add components or there "Job" >abbreviations. They are discriminated by what we do with their >components. How we execute em. Now I think I finally understand what you are talking about, and let me atemt to try and explain. I fully agree that a set is what we do while the bag is on the way up and there fore a steping toe stall is different than a miraje by the way they are performed, however I don't think they should be counted as sepperate moves. Just like I consider a torque to be the same move as a big steping blur like set to an osis, I consider this personal style, but important when describing the move. I do think is is important to be able to describe the way in which a move is done. What I meant in trying to redefine blurry was to have it extend to all moves with the same type of set and therefore be more of a descriptive tool than it is now. For example the sets for blurriest and blurry whirl are very much the same and there fore one would think would be under the same set deffenition, so that the way in which the move is being performed could be better explained. However with that said if you simply think that blurry should not be a set name than you've really lost me, it is a very descriptive consept, that helps players to visualy describe many modern moves. All of this merges into one of my personal interests of freestyle, which is how we distinguish between moves. Something like a big steping type set to a clipper bares almost no resemblance to a whirl but they are counted as the same move. And of course the absolute freak of the indicators for what makes a move unique is paradox, whose idea is that moves can be distinguished by their difficulty instead of more reliable physical indicators. One of my complaints of paradox is that is doesn't always take into acount the physical changes in the move. For example paradox drifter looks and feels very different than drifter, but para dlo feels a lot like a toe set dlo that's been set too high. If someone could give me a solid deffinition of the boundry that seperates personal style and actual physical changes of moves we might even be able to clear up this set/paradox confusion, but then I'm not quite that optomistic. But I digress lest I start another debate worse than this one. -Andrew "Bela Legosi's dead" McCargar P.S. Whoever took "we threw gasoline on the fire and now we have stumps for arms and no eyebrows" first I hate you. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 5 16:31:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA01078 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:31:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f217.hotmail.com [207.82.251.108]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10413 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:04:01 -0800 Received: (qmail 26500 invoked by uid 0); 5 Feb 1999 16:03:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19990205160350.26499.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.190.1 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:03:50 PST X-Originating-IP: [152.163.190.1] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:03:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello footbag community. This message is in response to all of the recent discussion concerning move and set clarification. Through intense research and a bit of soul-searching, I have come up with what will no doubt be considered the single most revolutionary change in footbag nomenclature. I live in New York City. One of the most convenient aspects of the Big Apple, especially for tourists, is the numbered streets and avenues. As long as you're not being pummeled by hoodlums, it's as easy as pie to make it from 84th St. and 2nd Avenue to 8th St. and 7th Avenue. Then there's footbag. I propose that all moves be codified by...yes, you got it...a number! What could be simpler? Around-the-World would be known simply as "1," mirage as "2," butterfly as "3," all the way up to spinning paradox torque, which by the way would be called "537." I can't believe how smart I am. Dan Kramer NYFA(D) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 6 00:46:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA02315 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:46:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Nageylum@aol.com Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13044 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:28:59 -0800 Received: from Nageylum@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id LBNFa20554; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:27:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <222dad81.36bb460a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:27:06 EST To: grandincredible@hotmail.com, freestyle@footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org sup kickers, grandincredible@hotmail.com spoketh: > Then there's footbag. I propose that all moves be codified by...yes, you > got it...a number! What could be simpler? Around-the-World would be > known simply as "1," mirage as "2," butterfly as "3," all the way up to > spinning paradox torque, which by the way would be called "537." > > I can't believe how smart I am. i would agree but i think for this to work every possible move must already be made, and then you have people, they just tend to ruin good ideas, people would have to remember every single one and plus saying "damn did you just see that man/women hit a 19 - 82 -73 - etc.!!!!" it just doesn't sound as cool as saying mobious, or blurry whirl, or vortex. i think footbag was really invented so people can use all these weird cool words in one sentence. Josh "bbf" Childs From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 6 00:45:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA02297 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:45:09 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11719 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:58:34 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld7fi.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.157.242]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01628 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:58:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990205095428.006f5558@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:54:28 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990204225910.006e4854@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Josh hiccuped: >They are for the purpose of building add components. But if you can't >agree with this: > >> > A stepping toe delay is a different move than a mirage and it is a move. > >Then there's no way you'll accept the idea that moves with different >sets, or moves that are executed differently [i.e. stepping clipper vs >drifter or, for that matter, anything 'extra crispy' vs. 'original >recipie' (see Sunil about that)] are moves all to themselves. I personally think that 'stepping' moves should *all* be recorded separately (from their no-plant counterparts) on the comp card, if this is not already the case (as it is now with ripwalk and dada). Same with anything with a different set. But as far as naming goes...? I would just like to see a little more consensus and consistency, that's all. I don't think that there's any one "right way" to get this--it doesn't matter whether we call "outside>same in/out dex>same clip" a 'drifter' or not, as long as we're consistent, and know why we're doing it. I think part of the naming problem stems from recognizing *three* kinds of mirages: 1) clip set>op leg dex 2) clip set>same leg dex ("paradox") 3) toe set>op leg dex But no "toe set>same leg dex"--that's a pixie or fairy. Recognizing *two* of these (#2 & #3)--or all four--seems more logical (in terms of movement, pixie is to clipper mirage as mirage is to paradox mirage). I think that this could eventually improve the naming/describing process quite a bit. Just some thoughts. Andrew "Bela Lugosi's Dead" McCargar said: >a steping toe stall is different >than a miraje by the way they are performed, however I don't think they >should be counted as sepperate moves. Just like I consider a torque to >be the same move as a big steping blur like set to an osis, I consider >this personal style, but important when describing the move. I do think >is is important to be able to describe the way in which a move is done. That's what I like about Sunil's "extra crispy"--a very useful modifier, I think. >paradox drifter looks and feels very different than drifter, but para >dlo feels a lot like a toe set dlo that's been set too high. Paradox drifter *does* resemble its toe counterpart, though (miraging clipper): "toe>op in/out dex>same clip". So not so different than dlo, no? >If someone >could give me a solid deffinition of the boundry that seperates personal >style and actual physical changes of moves we might even be able to >clear up this set/paradox confusion How about anything that doesn't show up in notation is purely personal style? E.g. the full-body vs. "hippy" legbeater (Wulff vs Ninja), the simultaneous-plant vs. the original "walking" ripwalk (Wulff vs Genzu). Or my favorite, the "reverse whirl" vs butterfly (Forrest "Fastfoot" Schrodt vs. the rest of the world [hi Forrest! ;) ] ). Anything that you can clearly, objectively notate seems to deserve both recognition on the comp card, and a unique name, if only *slightly* different or modified. Just ideas. Just freestylin' (and freestyle is for fun, right?) peace, Aaron "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict" de Glanville From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 6 00:45:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA02304 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:45:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11832 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:12:26 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld7fi.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.157.242]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22389 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:12:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990205100820.006f2424@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:08:20 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] moves and sets In-Reply-To: <19990205160350.26499.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I propose that all moves be codified by...yes, you >got it...a number! What could be simpler? Around-the-World would be >known simply as "1," mirage as "2," butterfly as "3," all the way up to >spinning paradox torque, which by the way would be called "537." Seeing as how the nickname craze is starting to really take off, I say we codify them by song titles. We could still use U2's "One" for an around-the-world, maybe Van Halen's "Jump" for a flying clipper, etc up to "We Threw Gasoline on the Fire and Now We Have Stumps for Arms and No Eyebrows" for Lon's spinning ducking symposium butterfly twirl. Whadaya say? aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 6 06:35:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA20742 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:35:48 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [209.79.220.11]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19031 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:06:06 -0800 Received: from left (tc2-176.nccn.net [209.79.221.176]) by nccn.net (8.8.8/8.8.6-NR-RGS-99.01.05-) with SMTP id TAA26119 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:07:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001601be517d$2f57d600$a1dd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: "footbag" Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox? Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:27:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Eric wrote... >d. It is right where it would be if you set from a x-body. You now must >make the paradox adjustment as you would normally if you wanted to do a >paradox. That is the second 1/2 of the spinning paradox. Most spinning >moves aren't actually 360 degrees between contacts as it is. Especially if >the spin is not paradox. From a x-body set the spin puts the paradox on >the other side of the body. From any set the paradox is on the side of the >counter spin. >Try spinning paradox DLO or tork and you will really feel it. Don't have >to really try it. VISUALIZE... >I am convinced that anyone who takes the time to think about this and TRY >IT will see, feel and understand what I'm talking about. >Let me know... I completely agree. A few questions though. What about off of a kick or a flyer and toe stalls? I know, because I spin a lot, that some spins are normal feeling and others are like inspins. With inspins you have to kinda stutter step to get going. What I'm wondering is how tell people the difference between normal spins and stutter step spins when I'm refering to off of kicks, flyers, and toes? For me, a normal spin is easy to keep going and you can just keep on doing right outsides, left insides, left toe stalls, right dragonflys, or left butterflys. Off any of those moves it is no very hard to keep on spinning counterclockwise. Let me know if you agree that that is a correct grouping of moves? Just to reiterate that same point. It is harder to spin clockwise off right outsides, left insides, left toe stalls, right dragonflys, or left butterflys than it is to spin counterclockwise. ShredOnLON From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 6 08:19:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA17453 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:19:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA198 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:49:52 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:49:53 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5159.D86E5080.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox? Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:49:52 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 58 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ellow... Derrick "da Shreddin Maniac Fossil" Fogle said... >So try this for just a regular paradox mirage: instead of a cross-body set, >set from an outside delay on that side of the body. Still paradox? >My point is that if you allow one to be paradox, you should allow the other to >be paradox as well. I can dig it... and see where you're comin from. But, in regular paradoxes, without a spin I mean, the dex which is paradox begins with the "same" leg which set the bag from X-Body. The fact that it is the same leg doing the in-dex out of a X-body set is a critical element to the paradox "body pivit thing". To me anyway... Being able to set, even with an outside, into an op-in dex, as apposed to a same in dex from x-body, gives you that little extra balance luxury of setting with one foot and than doing the dex with the other. Everything is shared. To me a spin actually makes the paradox even more "true". Once you do that 180 degree turn, from any set, you are committed to a truer "STOP" and "COME BACK" adjustment or "change of direction" that is the essence of a paradox feel. To me. also said... >PS: what I meant regarding Blurry Gyro is CrossBody Set -> Back Spin -> >SameLeg In-Out dex -> OppositeLeg In-Out Dex -> Opposite leg contact/delay. A >blur prefaced with a backspin; normally set from a cross-body; the leading >"set-backspin-leadingleg mirage" is often referred to as a gyro. It does not >negate the paradoxness of the 'switched side' paradox after the backspin. Gotcha... I like to describe moves in order. So that would be a gyro blurry to me. Blurry gryo would have the stepping set before the spin. Anyway, i see what you're saying and according to the official definition of paradox now, correct me if I'm wrong... a gyro blur is worth 4 adds. body-dex-dex-delay (No paradoxes in any spins) and a blur is worth 4 adds dex-(body)paradox-dex-delay To me.. that is a bit outa whack. More support that a paradox can be apart of a spin. just reverses the side as without a spin. spinning blur would now get 5 adds in this order... body(spin?)-body(paradox)-dex-dex-delay. The first dex is now pardox instead of the 2nd. Funky but True... Watcha Think? eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 6 08:19:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA17461 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:19:14 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA198 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:27:10 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:27:11 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5156.AC652660.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: moves & sets Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:27:09 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 61 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo aaron wrote some examples.... >Examples: toe blur, which is defined as such *because* of the so-called >"miraging" set. Smear is actually the true toe-set correspondent, as is >smudge for blizzard (which motion resembles a blur more, smear or toe blur? >And why...?) This is why Sunil insists that my "outside>same in-out >dex>same swirl" is not a swifter (swirling drifter), because a drifter, set >from a clipper, is supposedly a miraging clipper. Are or aren't these moves >defined by their sets? Some of what you're saying here is quite debatable. A smear is a same in-dex while a blur is an op in dex. A toe blur is also an op-in dex. My theory on step and tap change only the description of those moves which contain a step or a tap. For many this changes nothing because they already use it that way. As far as the outside set same drifter swirl thing is concerned... I don't see why this wouldn't be a swifter. As far as I know, a drifter can be set from anywhere. out-dex>same clipper. So much of freestyle terms are assumed or guessed at because there really is no standard. For the most part we're sittin here comparing personal styes. mentally and physically. also said... >Shouldn't stepping toe be "clip>op in-out dex[plant]>same toe" and *blurry* >toe "clip>op in-out dex[plant]>*op* toe"? Just asking O.K. , then I'm just answering.... This is really simple... it really is... not easy... but simple... check dis out... Both of what you described are stepping toes. One is a stepping-op toe and one is a stepping same toe. If folks want to make the descriptions shorter, for whatever reason, then go out and define blurry as "whatever" y'll want. Even if blurry was defined as stepping op anything than a blurry toe could still be broken down to it's most basic elements as - stepping>op-toe. Blurry DLO - stepping paradox DLO Blurry Whirl - stepping pardox whirl Blur - stepping paradox mirage Rip walk - stepping op butterfly Blurriest - stepping paradon Blurrier - stepping double down Ripped Warrior (Rip walk with a duck in the middle) - Stepping-zulu warrior Blurry Dragonflyer - stepping paradox dragonflyer I could go on and on... Already have.. Later iman Dig It? From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 6 21:28:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id VAA06386 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:28:53 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26845 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:01:56 -0800 Received: from SPRYNETSPRY337196 (sfr-qbu-pqq-vty182.as.wcom.net [209.154.103.182]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03823 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:01:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902061901.LAA03823@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Competition Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:10:15 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey there everyone. I'm getting a late start here, but I've been trying to write down a routine to skool for World's and wonder how most of you go about your performances. After trying to read up on all of the components, I'm beginning to think I won't bother trying to max out a card (if that's even possible for me--gotta skool those flyers, ya know...). I think I might just choreograph something that feels natural and try to use up every move I know solidly (hopefully both sides) and practice it enough until I don't drop that many times. Anyway, I'm just curious about how many of you actually tried to fill up a comp. card when you thought of your routine and how many of you just made it up as you went along by what you thought would be cool. Or, perhaps some of you have a better approach... I think I'm more inclined to really sit down and plan a doubles routine, but for singles, I think I kind of like the idea of having freedom to improv. as I'm working on it. Adios, Jane From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 9 09:07:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id JAA09871 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:07:30 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f129.hotmail.com [207.82.251.8]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA32207 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:32:20 -0800 Received: (qmail 20299 invoked by uid 0); 9 Feb 1999 03:32:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19990209033202.20298.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 153.35.237.155 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:32:01 PST X-Originating-IP: [153.35.237.155] From: "Daniel Guarda" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Toy Fair Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:32:01 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello Everybody! A couple of URGENT things. One: Josh Penney, I know you're out there, please contact me ASAP! Also, as I need to talk to Josh about, there is a Toy Fair coming up this weekend in NYC, and Infinity Juggling Co. is in need of ONE and only ONE more person other than JP and myself to work at their huge booth at the fair. BAsically, it is demoing footbags (Adidas I think) for hours on end. It starts Friday, and ends Monday. I'll be there Sat -Mon. If anyone is interested, I'll give more details. Please respond ASAP!! I need to know by tomorrow, Tuesday Feb. 8th if possible who will be going with us ( if JP can go at all?). Well, other than that, the New Ro Footbag Club seems to be doing great, and we are begging to raise money for some purpose or another. We drill moves left and right (so far few kids have gotten past clippers, but still, none of these kids have ever kicked before) and we have a regular attendence of 14 kids (which is a lot for a club) and membership of over 30. Thanks everybody + keep kickin it wild ---------Dan--------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 10 02:02:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA03641 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:02:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send105.yahoomail.com (send105.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.128]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15614 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:58:28 -0800 Message-ID: <19990210005845.16155.rocketmail@send105.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.250.164.231] by send105.yahoomail.com; Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:58:45 PST Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:58:45 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Vegas- Dave update To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey, shredders Just want to remove the question mark from Dave's name on the Vegas Jam list. The one and only "Teva" "Die Hard" David "Highlander" Holton will definitely be at the jam. late Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 10 09:02:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id JAA08695 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:02:42 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA127 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:36:56 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:36:57 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5485.1526CB00.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: move & sets Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:36:56 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 56 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derric wrote... >This has been my point all along. With current definitions of stepping, >some obviously unique moves share names. These are not the names of the moves which we're talking about. We are talking about the elements. As far as I know, a stepping-toe has no "name". Perhaps an "Extra Crispy Toe" or "Extra Crispy Pick-up" would better box it for you. When a move has no "name" people usually refer to it by it's elements. If your really confused, all you have to do is ask... which toe? also said... >Yes! That is what I advocate. I like the idea of stepping op anything >to mean 'blurry'. Drifter could also be looked at as a blurry clipper. >Or, if you like it better, a stepping op drifter. Since you were replying to my post with this comment, I must say that this is not necessarily what I advocate regarding this def of blurry. Just used as an example. and... DRIFTER could NEVER be looked at as BLURRY or STEPPING anything. Drifter neither has "blurry" or "stepping" in it. It has a mirage and a clipper in it. I think you are confused here Derric. Also, I am talking about elements/components of moves and how the elements/components are different. It doesn't matter what a move's name happens to be. I'm not saying that a "blurry whirl" by "name" should be changed. ***I'm saying that it's components Are - stepping-paradox whirl. Not simply x-body>op in>op-in>op x-body because that is too simplified. The first dex is not a mirage, it is a step. I'm not suggesting that names should be changed for rip-walk, blurry dragonfly, fog(blurry-dlo) and others with the stepping/blurry component. In my post on Friday 2/5 I listed some moves with their common names followed by the basic elements which make them up. common name - element/components >Blurry DLO - stepping paradox DLO >Blurry Whirl - stepping paradox whirl >Blur - stepping paradox mirage >Rip walk - stepping op butterfly >Blurriest - stepping paradon - or perhaps a stepping barfly >Blurrier - stepping double down >Ripped Warrior (Rip walk with a duck in the middle) - Stepping-zulu warrior - stepping-ducking butterfly >Blurry Dragonflyer - stepping paradox dragonflyer Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 10 17:24:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA16330 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:24:58 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26056 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:51:42 -0800 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #33464) with SMTP id <0F6Y008016UG30@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:51:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:51:52 -0700 (MST) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: [freestyle] paradox once again To: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org About a week ago I made a bid for paradox around the world. It didn't take very well and I believe was even laughed at by some. I suggested that it's relationship to a paradox mirage would be the way a regular ATW is to a regular mirage. HA HA silly me. With some insight from a friend let me try and rephrase my point. Let's use a Double Pick-up. All familiar? Clip>op in dex>same in dex>same toe. Well what if you do this Clip>SAME in dex>same in dex>same toe. Would you then call THAT a paradox double pick-up? I sure would. Now make it only one dex and make it a plain old pick-up. clip>op in dex>same toe. Now (dare I say) using the same explanation as above make it a paradox pick-up. clip>same in dex> same toe. This concept works for barrages, both regular and paradox. We call clip>op in dex>same in dex>op toe a barrage, and clip>same in dex>same in dex> op toe a paradox barrage. And so on with only one dex. So where exactly is the dividing line in this case? It can't be a difficulty thing because I've seen it posted a million times that what's difficult for some is not difficult for all and is thereby not a reliable argument. Any good thoughts or objections? BRAD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 10 17:24:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA16324 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:24:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25119 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:22:19 -0800 Received: from SPRYNETSPRY337196 (sfr-qbu-pqe-vty12.as.wcom.net [206.175.225.12]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04935 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:22:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902101522.HAA04935@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: [freestyle] Spins Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:31:19 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey hey hey, Does anyone have some theory behind the placement of your steps for spins? A plain spin from a clipper set is killin' me. My feet are the main problem...I usually step on my toes or lose my balance while I'm trying to spot. I thought it would be simpler to just spin than to torque or gyro mirage, but little did I know... Is this like asking how to do a legover after busting barfly to down-double-down or something? ;-) (no, for the record, I haven't hit that combo yet...just have the components to it...must....skool....harder.....) See ya, Jane oh yeah, it only took a light year to beat it into me, but most of my problems have been resolved with skooling just a set and nothing else over and over again. Finally hitting blur after skooling blur set a hundred times both sides before work each morning last week. well, the online video of Carol effortlessly busting blur helped too. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 10 17:51:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA26079 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:51:32 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26499 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:22:32 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA20987 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:22:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox once again Message-Id: <000000550953001512169@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:22:49 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Feb 10, 1999, 10:51:52 AM US CST KAPLAN BRADLEY M wrote: > So where exactly is the dividing line in this case? It can't be a >difficulty thing because I've seen it posted a million times that what's Dude, I've been pounding the table on this exact subject for years (and I totally agree with you). Ledgend has it that Kenny Shults once said that he just thought it shouldn't get the extra add if you didn't have to switch feet. So your dividing line might be one person's opinion, echoed by many. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 10 23:19:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA01503 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:19:21 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA25088; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:30:52 -0500 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199902102130.QAA25088@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: move & sets To: ewulff@jsishipping.com (Eric Wulff) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:30:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org In-Reply-To: <01BE5485.1526CB00.ewulff@jsishipping.com> from "Eric Wulff" at Feb 9, 99 11:36:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Quoth the Wolfy: > "name". Perhaps an "Extra Crispy Toe" or "Extra Crispy Pick-up" would > better box it for you. When a move has no "name" people usually refer to I do not want to get dragged into this discussion... but I do care to qualify that "extra crispy" vs. "original" style is JOSH PENNEY's concept (for better or worse). I read my name attached with it in previous posts, but that was just a misunderstanding. Josh was directing people to me since I understand (and kinda agree with) his concept. ***************************** Some possibility I may see a lot of you heads in VEGAS... I hope I can make it. Oh yeah... and Steve G. is the one who repeatedly defined blurry and stepping to us new-skoolers. Enough havoc for one day. Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 10 23:23:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA02031 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:23:46 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA197; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:05:15 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:05:15 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE54FE.6200D280.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'Sunil Jani'" Cc: "freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Re: move & sets Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:05:14 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 35 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Quoth the who?? thanx Mr. Sunil Johnny... :) Eric -----Original Message----- From: Sunil Jani [SMTP:sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 1:31 PM To: Eric Wulff Cc: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: move & sets Quoth the Wolfy: > "name". Perhaps an "Extra Crispy Toe" or "Extra Crispy Pick-up" would > better box it for you. When a move has no "name" people usually refer to I do not want to get dragged into this discussion... but I do care to qualify that "extra crispy" vs. "original" style is JOSH PENNEY's concept (for better or worse). I read my name attached with it in previous posts, but that was just a misunderstanding. Josh was directing people to me since I understand (and kinda agree with) his concept. ***************************** Some possibility I may see a lot of you heads in VEGAS... I hope I can make it. Oh yeah... and Steve G. is the one who repeatedly defined blurry and stepping to us new-skoolers. Enough havoc for one day. Sunil From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 11 01:53:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA17811 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:53:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from ems.salk.edu (ems.salk.edu [198.202.69.12]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA32684 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:39:16 -0800 Received: from [198.202.67.148] (198.202.67.148) by ems.salk.edu (Worldmail 1.3.167) for freestyle@footbag.org; 10 Feb 1999 15:41:21 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:48:12 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Cameron D Kennedy Subject: [freestyle] vegas '99 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have a single room @ the stratosphere. I am more than happy to offer floor space to straglers who, like myself are traveling alone. So uh, don't let lack of a place to stay keep you from coming to this monumental jam session. let me know if this would help you out at all, cameron From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 11 01:53:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA17817 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:53:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from one.mind.net (one.mind.net [206.99.66.5]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA32619 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:36:13 -0800 Received: from 206.151.159.158 (ip227.mind.net [206.151.159.158]) by one.mind.net (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA11025 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:36:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36C218C2.2C0A@mind.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:39:52 -0800 From: Forest Schrodt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Spins References: <199902101522.HAA04935@m9.sprynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Jane and fellow freestylers, Jane said: > Does anyone have some theory behind the placement of your steps for spins? > A plain spin from a clipper set is killin' me. My feet are the main > problem...I usually step on my toes or lose my balance while I'm trying to spot. I found that a clipper set spin to be more difficult to learn but in the long run provides a much better set than a toe. In a clipper set spin you must use your set to pull the bag behind you so that you only have to spin 180 degree's. The hard part is staying squared up(not being of ballance) after you have turned to the bag. Over time you will learn to know where to expect the bag to be after your spin. The placement of your steps should not be that difficult, unless you are trying an inspinn which I asume you are not, much, much harder. You should be pulling your setting foot back under you almost as if you have done an exagerated set for a blurr(a move not a sett te.. he! :) Let your heel lead your foot in the sett, carying the foot underneath the plant foot and lett the foot come down about two feet from the plant foot so that you are standing with your feet about shoulder width appart. While you are doing the set you should be turning your body the same direction that you caried your set foot under you. ex: left foot clipper sett you would turn left. Try to spot the bag as soon as possible, learning to know where to expect it to be. The sooner you turn to face the bag during your sett the easier it will be to spot the bag and the more time you will have to do a trick off the spin ie.. spinning mirage, spinning clipper, spinning butterfly, spinning osis, spinning legover...... Good luck, I hope that I was some help. Forest "I'm too sexy for this discussion group" Schrodt From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 11 17:16:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA22529 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:16:18 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f166.hotmail.com [209.185.131.229]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA08007 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:27:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 27130 invoked by uid 0); 11 Feb 1999 09:18:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19990211091806.27129.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.156.10.111 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:18:03 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.156.10.111] From: "jon nagela" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox once again Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:18:03 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Whats up kickers, I also agree that if Pdox mirage gets a paradox add that the same motion in a leg over which doesnt change sides at the end IE:clip, same out-in, same toe delay. should get the add. Three weeks ago I asked Scott D. and he told me it had to change feet and to look up a definition of pdox., at this time I thought I already understood paradox(Is this ever going to be possible) So I was thinking to myself why does "blurry" blender, and pdox blender get the pdox designation and add. So yesterday i figured out that blenders include the spin which changes which side of your body the final delay is. So anyway what really got me thinking was- is my reefracion which is set from a R. clip, and then dexed, and delayed, on the same r. leg and foot, on the left side of the body, a paradox move. I think it looks the same in notation as the "Royale"(Im trying) would except it has a spin- does the spin cancel the pdox- then why doesnt the spin cancel the pdox in blender. Is it the out-in dex which eliminates the possibility of pdox- what about Royale, pdox flux, pdox legbeater. Or is it a combionation of the two factors whic makes my pdox reeferaction not paradox.-(because it doesnt seem like its pdox to me. This paradox stuff is confusing and if you think about it and spend time writing about it it seems really stupid Later Jon Nagela From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 05:44:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA03334 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:44:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send104.yahoomail.com (send104.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.122]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA17192 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:59:15 -0800 Message-ID: <19990211213951.10213.rocketmail@send104.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.194.247] by send104.yahoomail.com; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:39:51 PST Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:39:51 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox once again To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org jon nagela wrote: > Or is it a > combionation of the two factors whic makes my pdox reeferaction not > paradox. "reefer-action"? Is that what you were doing before this posting? ;) Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 05:45:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA03352 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:45:14 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (root@diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18253 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:22:49 -0800 Received: from default (madmax-63.sfsu.edu [130.212.201.63]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25367; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:18:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990211151116.006a4090@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:11:16 -0800 To: Forest Schrodt , freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: Re: [freestyle] Spins In-Reply-To: <36C218C2.2C0A@mind.net> References: <199902101522.HAA04935@m9.sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Forest "I'm too sexy for this discussion group" Schrodt that makes "TWO" of us. Tu Suave From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 05:44:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA03328 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:44:30 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17337 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:13:30 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA18790 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:13:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox once again Message-Id: <000000559923001616033@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:13:53 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, Feb 11, 1999, 3:18:03 AM US CST jon nagela wrote: >same in notation as the "Royale"(Im trying) would except it has a spin- >does the spin cancel the pdox- then why doesnt the spin cancel the pdox >in blender. Is it the out-in dex which eliminates the possibility of >pdox- what about Royale, pdox flux, pdox legbeater. Or is it a It seems to be standard mantra that all paradoxes have something in common. The fact is, they don't. A paradox mirage and a paradox reverse mirage are two totally different body-motion "problems" that everyone has glommed into one idea. Too busy creating new moves to create good analysis of them, I guess. Paradox moves are really a number of different body motion difficulties that everyone seems to believe hold some common element, kind of like the scientific community's search for one theory (Unified Theory) that explains all particle interactions both large (planets/galaxies) and small (atomic/ subatomic). But at least most scientists don't think they've found a unified theory yet. The generally accepted idea is that paradox is a quick back-and-forth hip rotation or hip pivot. This can be pretty readily seen in paradox mirages; It can also be seen in paradox reverse mirages, for different reasons. Lets examin the paradox mirage first. It is a dexterity-based problem because of the classic "S-Curve" of the foot that does the dexterity. Your body tends to pivot the hips first toward the origin of the set to get the outside of the leg between you and the bag, and then back away from the initial set as the dexterity actually happens. This hip pivot is the reason pardox is awarded a body add. But my own refutation of that reasoning is that the hip pivot is simply caused by a constrained motion of the foot (i.e. dexterity) - it is a result of something else, not the root cause. To address the switch-foot issue, the "Must Switch Feet" camp claim that to truly seal the 'back and forth' motion, the bag has to end up back on the same side of the body that the bag came from in the first place. There are two distinct reasons this reasoning collapses under scrutiny: First, the 'return' pivot of the hips happens as the leg does the dexterity over the bag, not afterwards. Once you have done the dexterity, you have done the entire hip pivot motion. Thus paradox around-the-world should get a paradox add just as paradox mirage does. Secondly, the application of the 'back where it came from' idea is conveniently ignored for paradox whirls and paradox blenders. Paradox whirls and paradox blenders go back to the other foot, but that other foot has moved to the other side of the body. When you watch someone do one of these moves, you realize that any 'back-and-forth' motion of the hips is at best vestigal and usually undetectable. Again this bolsters the idea that a paradox mirage is a dexterity-based problem, because the constrained foot-path is still there although the hip rotation is largely absent. What about paradox REVERSE mirage? It is a timing/window problem. The difficulty of the paradox reverse mirage is not in the dexterity itself, but in the fact that after you go OVER the bag, you still must bring your foot back BETWEEN the bag and your final destination. Now consider the hip rotation of the reverse version: your hips pivot toward where the set came from as you complete the dexterity, then they pivot back when you go back between the bag and the delay foot. So both versions have back-and-forth pivot movements, but for completely different reasons. In the reverse version, it is clear that the second opposing hip rotation does not need to take place if the destination of the bag is not the other foot, because the act of bringing the dexterity leg back between the bag and the other foot is the action that results in the pivot back. Notice, again, that the pivot action is a result of another action, not the root of the action itself. So the "Must Switch Foot" concept is valid for paradox reverse mirages, but only because the difficulty involved in the move is strictly because the dexterity leg is brought back between the bag and the final delay foot (sort of a second "leg-under" dexterity). Here are three inconsistencies of the unified "double-pivot" theory: 1) Outside-set paradox mirages and paradox around-the-worlds both contain the double-pivot element, but are not awarded a paradox add. 2) Paradox mirage-style (whirl) dexterities that end up on the other side of the body (cross-body delay) don't really contain the double-pivot element, but are awarded a paradox add. 3) The generally accepted definition of paradox is all about where your foot must start and where it must end up. The definition itself is a constraint on foot paths that require dexterous leg motion, and never addresses gross body motion. Chew on this, and maybe I'll be back with more in-depth paradox analysis later. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle the fossil thats having fun with paradox again! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 05:47:45 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA03413 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:47:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18585 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:38:31 -0800 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA16084 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:38:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from dal-tx46-54.ix.netcom.com(198.211.44.182) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016006; Thu Feb 11 17:38:30 1999 Message-ID: <36C36D35.5D75@utdallas.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:52:21 -0600 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: scalf@utdallas.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Spins References: <199902101522.HAA04935@m9.sprynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jane Jones wrote: > > Hey hey hey, > > Does anyone have some theory behind the placement of your steps for spins? > A plain spin from a clipper set is killin' me. My feet are the main > problem...I usually step on my toes or lose my balance while I'm trying to > spot. Steve G. gave me the best advice on spins. He said to spin faster. At first, I thought it was pretty crappy advice, but now I understand. Try to set and spin fast. At first, you lose your balance, or set the bag sideways. That is where practice comes in. As with all tricks, try to set the bag straight up and down. You go around the bag... the bag shouldn't ever go around you. After you start getting the feel of the set, try to keep it under control. Try to set between waist and chest high every time. If you have been practicing fast spins, then when the set clicks into place, you'll already be turned around with plenty of time to do what you want. Hope this helps. -Derric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 05:47:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA03432 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:47:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA160 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:43:58 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:43:59 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE55D5.575A8E20.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox? Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:43:58 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 75 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derrick & all, My explanation below was definitely incomplete. Talkin Tech with freestyle can be a very touchy thing. I agree that the first dex in a spinning blur would not be the paradox but the second. However, I believe you can do a spinning "blur" type trick where the first dex is paradox. Perhaps it would be a spinning-paradox-pixie-mirage?? None the less, a paradox can and should be realized within spins. Do you agree? Regarding the outside set paradox thing, the tech difference would be that the setting foot might or might not plant but "it" is the one doing the dex. In the outside set example the setting foot is not doing the dex. However, I agree that we are "grasping at intellectual straws". Also, I'm not gonna argue with you on the feel of outside sets as it is one of your specialties. I would rather see a paradox from an outside set to op-mirage and see a paradox within spins than to see no paradox at all in both these areas. I will say though, that an outside set to blur would be outside-op-in not same-in. Same-in is an outside set-pixie mirage. A pixie set has come to be understood as a same-in dex "set". Of course this is usually from toe but could be from an outside. There is a move called the "toe blur" which is toe>op in>op in>toe. That's why I say a blur from an outside would be a outside>op in>op in>op toe. Watcha think? Eric -----Original Message----- From: Derrick Fogle, MLERF [SMTP:dfogle@mlerf.org] Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 6:48 AM To: Eric Wulff Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox? On Sat, Feb 6, 1999, 12:49:52 AM US CST Eric Wulff wrote: >spinning blur would now get 5 adds in this order... > body(spin?)-body(paradox)-dex-dex-delay. The first dex is now pardox >instead of the 2nd. Funky but True... So what happened to the 'reverses the side of the paradox' idea? To me the first dex would not be paradox, just a gyro; the second dex followed by the opposite side contact, forcing the 'stop and pivot the other way' motion, would be the paradox part. (body, dex, dex-and-body[paradox], delay) On the outside-set paradox matter: there are lots of examples, including blurs, where the setting foot is planted before the dexterity occurs. Whats the technical difference between the second part of a blur where the setting foot has planted and an outside-set 'paradox' mirage? The differences appear, to me, to be intellectual straws being grasped at. Setting from an outside forces you to start with a larger handicap in terms of initial hip placement and required hip rotation to complete the move. Blurs can be done from the outside set, too: Ouside-set -> Same In-Out dex -> Opp In-Out dex -> Opp toe. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle ...the fossil that's still stuck on a 5-year old debate... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 05:47:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA03445 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:47:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18476 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:30:13 -0800 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA14617 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:30:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from dal-tx46-54.ix.netcom.com(198.211.44.182) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014538; Thu Feb 11 17:30:02 1999 Message-ID: <36C36B39.149C@utdallas.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:43:54 -0600 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: scalf@utdallas.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox once again References: <19990211091806.27129.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org jon nagela wrote: > > Whats up kickers, I also agree that if Pdox mirage gets a paradox add > that the same motion in a leg over which doesnt change sides at the end > IE:clip, same out-in, same toe delay. should get the add. I agree that clipper set same legover IS harder than a clipper set op legover. But, if you give this paradox, do you also give a clipper set double legover paradox? > So anyway what really got me thinking was- is my reefracion which is > set from a R. clip, and then dexed, and delayed, on the same r. leg and > foot, on the left side of the body, a paradox move. Here, I would have to say no. I did a lot with refractions for a while, and I was told that you don't get the paradox add because the initial contact with the bag is not done cross body. I'm assuming you are throwing a little dex in there... like a pdx mirage bail to refraction? Clip > same in > same refraction. It would be a really cheesy pdx dada that would technically be 5 adds - if it gets pdx. I guess in this rambling, I'm trying to say that a refraction should *never* get pdx. > does the spin cancel the pdox- then why doesnt the spin cancel the pdox > in blender. Right now, a spin *before* the dex negates pdx. A pdx dex done *before* a spin is still pdx - ex. pdx torque. > Is it the out-in dex which eliminates the possibility of > pdox- what about Royale, pdox flux, pdox legbeater. What is a Royale? Since you put it in that list of moves, I'm guessing it is pretty sweet... About the pdx flux and legbeater, the pdx reverse miraging dex is done *before* any spinning. So, it gets both adds. Now, I think everyone should go back and read Eric's posts about spinning pdx. With the current system, you can get a pdx add and a spinning (body?) add ONLY if you do the pdx first. Why is this? Hopefully, in Chicago people will want to change that. Aren't rule changes and stuff made at the IFAB meeting after worlds? Either way, it is important to remember that all of this paradox stuff matters only at Worlds and Western - a total of two times a year. No other tournament that I know of actually uses add counts in determining winners. So, if you don't feel guilty doing an easy 3 add move , you are going guiltless. Who cares whether or not it is paradox? You know how hard the move is when you do it. Refractions can add a cool unexpected look to moves - do them pixie or blurry or stepping or atomic. It's all good. Shred hard. -Derric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 16:34:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA17708 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:34:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mcfeely.interaccess.com (mcfeely.interaccess.com [207.208.133.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA27763 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 04:05:45 -0800 Received: from [207.208.34.50] (d50.nhe2.interaccess.com [207.208.34.50]) by mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA19473; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:06:10 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36C36D35.5D75@utdallas.edu> References: <199902101522.HAA04935@m9.sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:08:49 -0500 To: scalf@utdallas.edu, freestyle@footbag.org From: "Enlightener (Scott Davidson)" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Spins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! >Steve G. gave me the best advice on spins. He said to spin faster. Good advice. I think, however, that I would say "spin sooner", not necessarily faster. And, oh, don't look up... that will throw you into the spiral of death, possibly crashing violently into the earth with legs twisted into an undiscernable mesh of searing flesh. See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 17:11:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA30348 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:11:29 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send101.yahoomail.com (send101.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.87]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA00756 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:36:12 -0800 Message-ID: <19990212163410.25574.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.184.193] by send101.yahoomail.com; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:34:10 PST Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:34:10 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] Spins To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Scott D wrote: > And, oh, don't look up... that will throw you into the > spiral of death, possibly crashing violently into the earth with legs > twisted into an undiscernable mesh of searing flesh. Yeah, I hit that once; I call it "suicide cyclone". I think it's 6 adds, sorry I can't jive no notation. Cool move. Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 17:15:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA30429 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:15:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00945 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:48:52 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02670 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:49:06 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <36C36D35.5D75@utdallas.edu> <199902101522.HAA04935@m9.sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:49:18 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Spins Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 6:08 AM -0500 2/12/99, Enlightener (Scott Davidson) wrote: >>Steve G. gave me the best advice on spins. He said to spin faster. > > Good advice. I think, however, that I would say "spin sooner", not > necessarily faster. I actually disagree with the "sooner" part, Scott. I know what you mean, but a lot of folks learning spins get confused as to exactly what this means. They think they need to rush the set... My advice is to push-set the bag slightly behind you (depends on what you're really going for, of course) so you don't have to spin so far (you can adjust the set over time to make the spin more pure once you learn how to spin). But before you spin, *make sure you get your set*. A lot of folks learning spins try to spin out of the set, and end up rushing the set so that they don't actually get a good set at all. So, *get your set*. That means, mentally, there's a 2.5-millisecond pause after the set and before the spin. During those 2.5 milliseconds, spot the bag with your eyes, as it is leaving your foot. Then, *leading with your head* (which means, "don't lean back with your head up and keep your eyes focussed"), spin *really fast*... Don't waste time doing the spin itself. Then, coming out of the spin, SPOT THE BAG and finish the move (whatever the next component is). Something Eric Wulff told me recently that definitely helps with moves like Mobius with a spinning dex is -- *don't start the dexterity too early*. If you're spinning into a trick, such as mobius or spinning mirage, don't lift your dexterity leg to do the spinning dex too early. So: (1) As your first thought, get your set; (2) Then, focus on the spin, and do it really fast; (3) Finally, finish the move out of the spin, spotting the bag ASAP. The spinning-fast part is basically so that the spin doesn't take you off-balance and so that you end up with your eyes retaining their focus on the bag. It will become natural and after a while. Work both sides. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 22:26:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA30347 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:26:04 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02825 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:17:37 -0800 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #33464) with SMTP id <0F7200E012X1OR@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:17:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:17:25 -0700 (MST) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox once again In-reply-to: <36C36B39.149C@utdallas.edu> To: Derric Scalf Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I feel a bit responsible here because I started this discussion and now I have a few provisional points to raise which I believe are mostly if not entirely in agreement with one of Derric Fogle's later posts. Here goes.... > jon nagela wrote: > > Whats up kickers, I also agree that if Pdox mirage gets a paradox add > > that the same motion in a leg over which doesnt change sides at the end > > IE:clip, same out-in, same toe delay. should get the add. > > legover. But, if you give this paradox, do you also give a clipper set > double legover paradox? I made the distinction in my original post that the paradox comes in with an in-out dex from same clipper. Out-in dex from same clipper to me doesn't seem to possess the more or less agreed upon elements of a paradox which at the very least might include the double hip-pivot. Okay so let's say the double pivot isn't necessary as D. Fogle points out in the case of pdx whirl. There is at least the switching of feet, which is also not a necessity as pointed out with pdx blender, drifter, and others landing on the same foot as the set. And there is the clipper set, which many deem necessary to have a pdx (I am not sure on this but will go with it for now). So where are we as concerning the paradox legover? I think the Dex is a defining charcteristic here. Butterfly from clipper set in this way, clip> same out dex> op clip, isn't a paradox butterfly because of the direction of the dex. but if you flip the dex the other direction, clip>same in dex> op clipper, you get pdx whirl. What I'm essentially trying to say getting to the nitty gritty is that in order to have a paradox which involves a clipper set followed by the same leg out-in dex there needs to be either a switching of the feet immediately following or a landing of the bag on the same foot/same side of the body as the set. For example Pdx reverse drifter, pdx legbeater, and Blizzard. Both have pdx in them with out-in dex, I believe for the above reason. They also create the hip-pivot by making you switch feet whereas setting clip followed by in-out dexes usually (not always) have the pivot in place without necessitating switching feet or landing on the same side of the body as the set. > > So anyway what really got me thinking was- is my reefracion which is > > set from a R. clip, and then dexed, and delayed, on the same r. leg and > > foot, on the left side of the body, a paradox move. Pdx? Not necessarily but is capable of getting 4 adds in my opinion if done this way, clip> same out dex> PLANT> same osis. Basically what you do with the plant is give the dex a defining character to give 1 and the osis gives you the other 3. Now if you do, clip> same out dex> op osis, the you get pdx reverse torque AKA pdx. flux. It's kind of like getting pdx for whirl but not barfly, or better yet being able to get a pdx for blender but not pdx for motion. Okay my Brain is officially on strike so I better quit while I still have at least two active cells. Life is short...just do it hard!!! BRAD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 22:26:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA30348 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:26:05 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f190.hotmail.com [207.82.251.79]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03293 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:58:50 -0800 Received: (qmail 20563 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 1999 19:58:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19990212195818.20562.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 141.84.137.131 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:58:14 PST X-Originating-IP: [141.84.137.131] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox(oh no) once again Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:58:14 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick Fogle wrote: >It seems to be standard mantra that all paradoxes have something in >common. The fact is, they don't. Am I really responding to a posting about Paradox? Maybe all that Bier I've been drinking has been killing too many brain cells. Anyway as much as I hate to admit it all paradox moves do have something in common, they start with the bag on the wrong side of the body. If we compare paradox whirl with paradox reverse miraje the dexs seem almost totally different, and they are, what is important is where the dex is performed. Personal style throws a lot of this off, but in theory in both moves the dex leg has to reach over on top of the set leg, please note this does not necesitate a double pivot, s curve or what ever you want to call it. For example in a paradox blender there is no double curve, however it is difficult for the exact same reason as the other two moves, the dex is set on the "wrong" of the plant leg. Also with paradox twirl, the bag is still set to the "wrong" side of the plant leg, however the side has changed. The only things missing from this are moves starting with a reverse miraje which also put the bag on the "wrong" side of the of the plant leg. That said clip>same io>same toe should not get paradox. Why, the set is nulified because the window was not compleated, that is in the other paradox moves the dex was started on the wrong side of the plant leg and then compleated on the right side, for cliper set leg over the dex leg just sort of stops half way, which does not sugnificantly differentiat it. That's as close to a deffinition as I can get, feel free to punch it full of holes. Important Disclaimer. By what I have just written I am in no way supporting the theory of Paradox, if for no other reason than I have not yet seen a concreat way to define this, also because even by my definition paradox moves are not always sugnifficantly more difficult. I do not want to redefine it (if it is defined now) neither do I want to start a debate. However for the sake of discussion if you aren't already totaly sick of this topic read on. Now for my opinion. Using non blurry moves as a model blurry (or stepping paradox) moves should almost never get the paradox add. After the first dex the bag is on the "right" side of the plant leg there fore all bets are off. The only exception I can think of would be blurry twirl. Also after a spin there should almost never be paradox, simply because if you have just compleated a full spin the bag should be huvering right in front of you, on the right side of both legs. The only way to put the bag in paradox position would be not to spin fully, which would seem to say that we should differentiat full and half spins, which you all seemed unwilling to do. >Paradox moves are really a number of different body motion >difficulties that everyone seems to believe hold some common element, >kind of like the scientific community's search for one theory >(Unified Theory) that explains all particle interactions both large >(planets/galaxies) and small (atomic/ subatomic). But at least most >scientists don't think they've found a unified theory yet. Actually I have slowly been working on a unified theory of footbag, however unlike most of my crackpot ideas brought up for descussion you all don't get to see it untill it's finnished. Wow did I really write that much about paradox, I need to lay down now. -Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 23:48:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA26439 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:48:43 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05123 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:35:53 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA16413 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:35:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox(oh no) once again Message-Id: <000000565833001703747@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:35:47 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Feb 12, 1999, 1:58:14 PM US CST Andrew McCargar wrote: >I've been drinking has been killing too many brain cells. Anyway as much >as I hate to admit it all paradox moves do have something in common, >they start with the bag on the wrong side of the body. If we compare Fairly good analysis, all said. But if your crux of paradox is that it comes from the wrong side of the body, it fails to explain why doing an outside set on that "wrong" side of the body, rather than a cross-body set on that "wrong" side of the body, does not get paradox. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 12 23:59:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27050 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:59:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05905 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:33:38 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29602; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:33:50 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000565833001703747@mlerf.org> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:34:08 -0800 To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox(oh no) once again Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 4:35 PM -0600 2/12/99, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > Fairly good analysis, all said. But if your crux of paradox is that it comes > from the wrong side of the body, it fails to explain why doing an outside set > on that "wrong" side of the body, rather than a cross-body set on > that "wrong" > side of the body, does not get paradox. I admit I haven't had time to read all the e-mail on this subject, but I have to say I'm a little confused as to why you're all debating these same points that are (I think) pretty clearly explained in my Paradox Tutorial that's been on the website for a looong time. Have many of you read it? And, can someone please read it and give me very explicit reasons what points it is inaccurate, unclear, or incorrect on? I thought it was pretty complete. The only issue it leaves unanswered is that of spinning/gyro, which I now have a strong opinion on and have written about since. I can try to update it to include that if necessary. Find it at http://www.footbag.org/freestyle/ under "Paradox Tutorial" in the Resources section. This is the freestyle home page on footbag.org. It's also included below for you web-challenged among us. Thanks. Steve --- cut here: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:14:50 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Tutorial v1.0a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Status: For those of you who don't know what "paradox" means, the following is a basic tutorial (written by yours truly). For those of you who are experts, it may be a good way for you to explain the concept to others, so I invite you to read it. But please don't pick nits with it (corrections are fine, but perhaps they're better done in private e-mail; I will post a corrected or updated tutorial later if necessary, given whatever feedback I get from experts). The idea is to explain the basic concepts, and not to get into the gnarly details. It is also hoped that the following tutorial can evolve and live on the website and be posted to this list when people ask this question (which they will) into the future: ----- WHAT IS PARADOX? The first thing to do to understand "paradox" is to look at one of the basic paradox moves and see exactly how it differs from the "non-paradox" version of the same move. In this case, we'll compare "mirage" with "paradox mirage". For the purposes of this discussion, consider "mirage" from a "clipper" set. That is: clip > op in dex > op toe "mirage" (from clipper set) Concretely, let's say you set the bag straight up, out of your right clipper delay. To do a "mirage", you would then plant your right foot (the one that just did the clipper set), and jump over the bag with your left leg (we call this an "in-out" dexterity), catching the bag on the toe of your right foot. Now, the "paradox" version of the same mirage would be have exactly the same ending, (i.e., in-out dexterity to opposite toe) but with the *other* leg doing the initial clipper set. In other words, instead of setting the exact same left-leg in-out dexterity using your right clipper, you start out with a set from your LEFT clipper. This makes the move APPRECIABLY HARDER: clip > SAME in dex > op toe "paradox mirage" Why is it harder? Well, this is the essence of "paradox", and I'll get to it below. Try to do this yourself and I think you'll see it is harder. [Instruction: The standard way to hit a paradox mirage is not to plant the setting foot (since that just makes the timing harder). Instead, you do a set, and IMMEDIATELY "snake" your setting leg out from behind the leg you set with (this implies that paradox moves are always set from a cross-body, because it's the snaking motion that partly defines what a paradox is) and without planting you throw the leg over the bag from in to out. Then you do the delay on your opposite toe. Consider that since the motion was "in-out", you had to really get your leg around the bag when doing the dexterity. This is *part* of what makes the move harder than the non-paradox version of the same move.] So for this example, "paradox mirage" is considered the "paradox" version of "mirage" because, technically, it is a mirage, except that it is *harder* because of set is from the "wrong clipper"! ****** Therein lies the paradox -- in freestyle footbag, it has always been the common thinking that "the set doesn't affect the difficulty". But we all know it does for "paradox" moves. ****** So the essence of "paradox" is that, by changing the set from one side to the other, but keeping the rest of the move the same, you make the move appreciably harder to execute. This is not true of *all* moves -- just of those moves that *are* harder as a result of the set. [For the sake of this explanation, assume that paradox only makes sense for "cross-body" (or "clipper") sets.] There is nothing in the *basic* definition of "paradox" that implies anything about whether a dexterity is "in-out" or "out-in". In other words, there are paradox versions of out-in dexterity moves, just as with in-out moves; for example, "paradox reverse-mirage". However, there is a class of moves starting with a clipper set for which the difficulty of executing the move is *not* appreciably different for *either* side set. Such moves generally involve OUT-IN dexterities, but that's a red herring. The fact is that "paradox" *doesn't* mean "set from the opposite clipper from the regular move"... People frequently try to define "paradox" in a way where it stands alone, instead of in simpler terms of the non-paradox versions of the same move. Here is a simple way to look at "paradox": "Paradox" as a term only makes sense when used to describe a move that is more difficult than, but otherwise identical to another move -- wherein the difference is entirely attributed to the *set*. Furthermore, the set for a paradox move is always from the cross-body position. That said, the actual determination of which moves are harder because of the different cross-body set is the ultimate issue behind the "great paradox debate". Suffice it to say that, in general, if the move doesn't *require* the "double-hip-pivot" to execute, it's not paradox but rather just the other-side set. Examples of moves that *can't* be made "paradox" are: butterfly, switch-over, leg-over, and swirl. (This is not an exhaustive list.) Paul Munger sent out a reasonably good list of criteria for whether or not a move is paradox. This tutorial is not meant to propose any standard for measuring such, but rather to give the reader a basic understanding of the concept. The rest of this tutorial gets into the contentious issues around why paradox moves are "appreciably harder". You can skip it if you don't care. It is not intended to stimulate discussion or argument, but to simply orient the reader as to the issues involved. Most advanced freestylers agree that the paradox mirage is harder than the mirage for a couple of reasons: "paradox mirage" is harder than "mirage" because: (1) you have to "snake" your setting leg out from the cross-body position quickly and precisely in order to get back under the bag for the initial dexterity; (2) you have to really pivot your hips (more than usual) to perform the move -- first in one direction, then in the other. Therefore, in the current difficulty-rating system, a "paradox" move is awarded an extra "body" add (for the double-hip-pivot). You can probably see that this is a contentious issue -- since most players believe paradox moves are harder than their non-paradox counterparts, really defining why is important. The "double-hip-pivot" standard is not particularly well accepted and people frequently come up with moves that don't fit this standard but which they believe are paradox. We won't address these cases in this tutorial. Further, certain spinning (or gyrating) moves are thought of as "taking the place" of paradox in most cases. It is important that you understand that spins or gyrations don't necessarily "negate" paradox -- they don't "cancel it out". They simply "subsume" it. If you think back to the earlier description of paradox mirage, it's the "snaking dexterity motion" and the "body" hip-pivot required to hit the move that make it "paradox" as a result of setting from the "wrong side" and going the "long way around the bag". Spinning or gyrating is just another such added level of difficulty... A good example is "vortex". At first glimpse, "vortex" looks like a "gyrating paradox drifter". But this is not correct; "vortex" is a "gyrating drifter" (non-paradox). The reason is simple: the spin of the gyrating motion is a "body" motion; once the spin is complete the remaining work is very similar to the work required to hit a drifter from the "simple" set. The spin made the move harder, not the same-side set. (This gets into the argument about switching feet in spins/gyros; I will leave that for a separate thread.) That's enough for now. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 13 02:38:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA19126 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:38:04 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06119 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:54:07 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA24035 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:54:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox(oh no) once again Message-Id: <000000566143001708442@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:54:02 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Feb 12, 1999, 5:34:08 PM US CST Steve Goldberg wrote: >And, can someone please read it and give me very explicit reasons >what points it is inaccurate, unclear, or incorrect on? I thought it OK, lets start here... >those moves that *are* harder as a result of the set. [For the sake of >this explanation, assume that paradox only makes sense for "cross-body" (or >"clipper") sets.] Then this... >of "mirage" because, technically, it is a mirage, except that it is >*harder* because of set is from the "wrong clipper"! Then this >that's a red herring. The fact is that "paradox" *doesn't* mean "set from >the opposite clipper from the regular move"... And this... >to the *set*. Furthermore, the set for a paradox move is always >from the cross-body position. Summed up, you're saying that this is what paradox is, but that not actually what paradox is. Yes, I do have a problem with that. Next I'll address this: >paradox debate". Suffice it to say that, in general, if the move doesn't >*require* the "double-hip-pivot" to execute, it's not paradox but rather I'm not the only one willing to admit that a number of paradox moves don't really contain that magical double-hip pivot. Its existence is at best vestigal, and more likely not there at all. And now I'll harp on this a bit... >(1) you have to "snake" your setting leg out from the cross-body >position quickly and precisely in order to get back under >the bag for the initial dexterity; You're describing dexterity here, not body motion, and... >(2) you have to really pivot your hips (more than usual) to >perform the move -- first in one direction, then in the other. The alleged hip pivot is a result of your leg motion, not the source of it. My point is that paradox isn't really a body move; it is either a dexterity problem or an interference problem. More analysis later... ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 13 02:42:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA19183 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:42:58 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07860 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:17:30 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25368; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:17:44 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000566143001708442@mlerf.org> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:18:00 -0800 To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox(oh no) once again Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 5:54 PM -0600 2/12/99, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > The alleged hip pivot is a result of your leg motion, not the source of it. I guess I've evolved a lot in my thinking on this since we last debated it (you and I). I absolutely *do not* contend that paradox is a "body" ad. It's a "paradox" add. Most of what makes paradox hard is the dexterity. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 13 05:11:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA02361 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:11:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA252 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:33:06 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:33:18 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE56B6.28EB52E0.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] paradox once again Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:33:14 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 7 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The "Monster" cuts to the chase with... >"reefer-action"? Is that what you were doing before this posting? ;) he he he... that was the best post I've seen in a while... ;) Eric " I am Ironamn... nahnah nahnah nahnah nah.. NAH NAH NAH" Wulff From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 13 05:13:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA02394 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:13:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [209.79.220.11]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08991 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:32:26 -0800 Received: from left (tc2-141.nccn.net [209.79.221.141]) by nccn.net (8.8.8/8.8.6-NR-RGS-99.01.05-) with SMTP id UAA04850 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:33:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001901be5709$ab24f240$8ddd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox Once Again Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:09:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org HELLO DISCUSIONISTS, MERLF FOGGLE wrote: >Here are three inconsistencies of the unified "double-pivot" theory: >1) Outside-set paradox mirages and paradox around-the-worlds both contain the double-pivot element, but are not awarded a paradox add. >2) Paradox mirage-style (whirl) dexterities that end up on the other side of the body (cross-body delay) don't really contain the double-pivot element, but are awarded a paradox add. >3) The generally accepted definition of paradox is all about where your foot must start and where it must end up. The definition itself is a constraint on foot paths that require dexterous leg motion, and never addresses gross body motion. >Chew on this, and maybe I'll be back with more in-depth paradox analysis >later. Right on. I couldn't agree with you more. The thing is that paradox is the fact that it is a dexterity that goes under then over the bag(inside out) not an over then under action. Because many feel that going over and then under the bag is more of a struggle to complete because the first part of the action is the most difficult part. I agree with Derrick that >The definition itself is a constraint on foot paths that require dexterous leg motion, and never >addresses gross body motion. Enough on that. Talk more later when someone expands on this. LON From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 13 09:30:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id JAA15093 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:30:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f123.hotmail.com [209.185.131.186]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA10628 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:21:52 -0800 Received: (qmail 7332 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 1999 08:21:23 -0000 Message-ID: <19990213082123.7331.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.156.10.208 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:21:22 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.156.10.208] From: "jon nagela" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox once again Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:21:22 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hows it goin y'all, I just wanted to clear up that In my druken posting on Pdox In the 1st sentence I meant to say that I had thought originally that an in-out ( not out-in) leg over was Pdox. I should have noticed the misprint but I was just practicing my refractions- eric was probably doing spinning Pdox Refraction before he wrote about "quiltless" flyers. Later, Jon (small add) Nagela From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 15 03:17:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA09204 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:17:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from inetsrv.callplus.co.nz ([202.27.103.146]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA31158 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:50:41 -0800 Received: by INETSRV with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id <19LVBL1N>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:48:14 +1300 Message-ID: <8186832B88B9D211959E002035F378230271FB@INETSRV> From: Adrian Dick To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Spinning Paradox Solution Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:48:12 +1300 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org For spinning moves, perhaps Paradox could be simply explained as any dexterity where your leg goes in the opposite direction of your spin? I can't think of any exceptions... except maybe spinning swirls, which shoodnt get paradox... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 15 04:11:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA28513 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 04:11:46 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail-smtp.socket.net (mail-smtp.socket.net [216.106.1.15]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA31717 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:43:13 -0800 Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by mail-smtp.socket.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23917 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:03:32 -0600 Received: from alpha-1 by mail.socket.net ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:22:52 -600 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:40:10 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox(oh no) once again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Now for my opinion. Using non blurry moves as a model blurry (or >stepping paradox) moves should almost never get the paradox add. After >the first dex the bag is on the "right" side of the plant leg there fore >all bets are off. The only exception I can think of would be blurry So your saying that a blur should be the same amount of adds as a paradox mirage. And a blurry whirl should be the same amount of adds as a paradox whirl. I don't think anyone will accept that, although it would make frontside paradox blur worth one more add than regular blur, which is probably valid. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 15 04:11:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA28526 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 04:11:53 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail-smtp.socket.net (mail-smtp.socket.net [216.106.1.15]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA31712 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:43:08 -0800 Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by mail-smtp.socket.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23914 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:03:28 -0600 Received: from alpha-1 ([216.106.19.78]) by mail.socket.net ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:33:52 -0600 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:44:07 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Spinning Paradox Solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >For spinning moves, perhaps Paradox could be simply explained as any >dexterity where your leg goes in the opposite direction of your spin? > >I can't think of any exceptions... except maybe spinning swirls, which >shoodnt get paradox... what about spinning rev. mirage? But I bet that gyro rev. mirage is harder than spinning rev. mirage. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 15 18:07:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA04852 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:07:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f151.hotmail.com [207.82.251.30]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04978 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:16:12 -0800 Received: (qmail 15995 invoked by uid 0); 15 Feb 1999 17:15:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19990215171550.15994.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.190.163 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:15:50 PST X-Originating-IP: [152.163.190.163] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Paradox and Outside Sets Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:15:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Can moves set from the outside, kick or stall, be paradox? DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 15 18:19:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA05406 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:19:05 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05348 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:51:39 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24657; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:52:04 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990215171550.15994.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:52:15 -0800 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox and Outside Sets Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 9:15 AM -0800 2/15/99, Daniel Kramer wrote: > Can moves set from the outside, kick or stall, be paradox? Sure, no problem. The essense of paradox is that the dexterity is started and completed on the far side of the support leg by the other leg. As long as the set is on the outside of the support leg (even if the support leg performed the set), the move can be paradox (if the other elements are present). We've had this discussion before, of course. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 15 21:22:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id VAA30960 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:22:46 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07331 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:40:18 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA08379 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:40:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Paradox and Outside Sets Message-Id: <000000575303001938151@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:42:31 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, Feb 15, 1999, 5:52:15 PM GMT Steve Goldberg wrote: >The essense of paradox is that the dexterity is started and completed >on the far side of the support leg by the other leg. As long as the >set is on the outside of the support leg (even if the support leg >performed the set), the move can be paradox (if the other elements >are present). We've had this discussion before, of course. :-) This is gibberish, Steve. Could you explain in plain english, please? ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 16 03:31:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA17058 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 03:31:15 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA260 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:05:51 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:05:53 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5916.357894C0.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: spinning paradox solution Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:05:52 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 15 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Adrian Wrote... >For spinning moves, perhaps Paradox could be simply explained as any >dexterity where your leg goes in the opposite direction of your spin? Yes... but it would be better to specify that the dex "finishes" going in the opposite direction of your spin. As simple and true as it gets. Hey , I thought you didn't want to get into this debate... Regarding out-in dexes... they were always bogus paradox adds. Just as "bogus" in a spin as anywhere else. They shouldn't be considered a factor here. iman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 16 08:27:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA15554 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:27:18 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA227 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:31:40 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:31:42 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5919.D0D188C0.ewulff@jsishipping.com> From: Eric Wulff To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:31:41 -0800 Organization: JSI Shipping X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 31 TEXT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Steve wrote... >The essense of paradox is that the dexterity is started and completed >on the far side of the support leg by the other leg. As long as the >set is on the outside of the support leg (even if the support leg >performed the set), the move can be paradox (if the other elements >are present). We've had this discussion before, of course. :-) To which Derrick replied... >This is gibberish, Steve. Could you explain in plain english, please? To which I say... What?! Steve's basic explanation supports what you(Derrick) have been tauting for the last week or so about paradox from an outside set. Seems pretty clear to me what both of you have had to say. What you have said and what Steve, more simply, has summarized(copied above) makes as much sense as freestyle can make. Which ain't much... heh heh ;) Paradox From An Outside Set... Is it that big of a deal? It's paradox from an outside set for cryin out loud... This is so "old school" I'm supprised it is still in debate. I support the outside set to paradox. Is anybody objecting to this? Anybody?? i-man From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 16 18:25:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA12993 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:25:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mc-qout2.whowhere.com ([209.1.236.38]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA18104 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:08:00 -0800 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by theglobe.com; Tue Feb 16 07:07:36 1999 To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:07:36 -0000 From: "Ian Dubman" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution X-Sender-Ip: 128.206.120.62 Organization: E-Mail @ The Globe (http://www.globe-mail.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo Iman, you said... >Regarding out-in dexes... they were always bogus paradox adds. Just as >"bogus" in a spin as anywhere else. They shouldn't be considered a factor >here. Could you please explain why you think paradox out-in does not deserve the paradox?? I remember sometime in the past, you discussed how if you skool a move it seems easier than if you don't. I have skooled this for a while and it isn't getting any easier. I can bust reverse miraging osis(flux), reverse miraging butterfly(legbeater), and reverse miraging opp mirage (atomsmasher) all pretty consistently--I defined these for others, I am not trying to insult your knowledge of the sport. So, to get to the friggin' point, I think it deserves that extra add, because there is some measurable amount of increased difficulty present. Be it not under the paradox definition, it has got to be somewhere. And those are the thoughts of Eons... Ian Dubman MUFF "I am not just the president, I am a member" "Free web-based email available now at http://www.theglobe.com" From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 16 18:41:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA22212 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:41:02 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23416 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:15:03 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11591; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:15:32 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:15:44 -0800 To: "Ian Dubman" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:07 PM +0000 2/16/99, Ian Dubman wrote: > Could you please explain why you think paradox out-in does not > deserve the paradox?? I am not sure what Eric's referring to, but I can tell you this: the term "completing the dexterity" is the key. There's been a lot of discussion in the past about the fact that there are actually 4 types of (single-) dexterities: 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full. It's hard to have an out-in full dexterity, but when it exists, it can be paradox. (So I personally have no problem with paradox reverse mirage. It's certainly not under dispute (is it?) that blizzard and blur are both the same level of difficult -- 4 adds in the current system). Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 16 22:07:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA25101 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:07:51 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA25430 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:37:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets Message-Id: <000000582663002045850@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:37:29 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org ('freestyle') Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, Feb 15, 1999, 9:31:41 PM US CST Eric Wulff wrote: >Paradox From An Outside Set... Is it that big of a deal? It's paradox >from an outside set for cryin out loud... This is so "old school" I'm Since I never had time to respond to your earlier post, I'll try to summarize what I'm working on here. There are 3 "forks" involved in the definition of paradox: 1) It is a body add amounting to some nefarious double-hip pivot. This is the 'commonly accepted' explanation of paradox *** I disagree with this and am trying to debunk it. 2) It is actually an additional element of dexterity difficulty. This can best be explained by the "S" and "Alpha" curves of paradox moves. The "S" curve is essentially a dexterity around the support foot; the "Alpha" curve is essentially an "Over the bag and then back under it between the bag and the final contact foot" dexterity. *** This is what I propose as as the true "root" of paradox, but it is really two very different elements 3) Paradoxes are THIS move, and THIS move, and THIS move.... ad nauseum. *** No explanation of paradox has ever escaped this pre-defined "List" of what is, and isn't, paradox. Instead, all conceptual definitions of paradox must offer some kind of weak excuse why this or that move is or isn't paradox that doesn't really fit with the conceptualization of what the move is. To a certain extent, I am 'working' both sides of the debate between #1 and #2 trying to get at the inconsistencies of each theme. It seems that the overriding goal of explaining paradox is adherence to #3. I've pointed out that the prevalent theory #1 is pretty poor regarding #3, the outside set being an example move that has all the classic body pivot elements but lacks that magical cross-body set. My arguments don't really center around that particular move either, but use it as a glaring example of one particular theory's inadequecies. At the same time, I do feel strongly that even "old school" moves deserve the same care and attention that bleeding-edge stuff does. Everyone has to start somewhere. Paying attention to such 'lower-level' moves helps let newer players realize that they are considered. What people currently use to define paradox is roughly this: It starts with a cross-body contact, that setting leg must do an in-out or out-in dexterity, and end up either on the other foot or on the same side as the set came from. Butterfly-style dexterities are not included. There is no conceptualization in here; it is simply a set of rather arbitrary rules. Once someone tries to conceptualize paradox, nothing seems to explain this arbitrary set of rules. I think my "paradox is a dexterity" theory comes alot closer than "paradox is a body add" theory because everything that previous paragraph is doing is putting specific limits on where and how the legs are moved. To me that means dexterity. So in one instance, I'm harping on "why the heck isn't outside set considered paradox when it contains all the body-add conceptualization elements?" And in another instance, I'm harping on "why do we keep insisting this is a body movement element?" I'm maneuvering for the classic Tic-Tac-Toe position, where I've got two possible wins an you can only cover one. If paradox is a body element, you've got to accept paradox from an outside set. If you accept paradox as a dexterity element, you DON'T necessarily have to accept paradox from an outside set. Furthermore, if you accept paradox as being, in actuality, several different 'problems' that really shouldn't be unified, maybe we can get down to the nitty gritty and come up with solid conceptualizations of what Paradox Type A is and what Paradox Type B is. I still think Steve's explanation is essentially gibberish. It leaves too many questions un-answered. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 16 22:23:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA25713 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:23:05 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26851 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:56:39 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21059 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:57:05 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000582663002045850@mlerf.org> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:57:22 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 3:37 PM -0600 2/16/99, Derrick Fogle, MLERF wrote: > I still think Steve's explanation is essentially gibberish. It > leaves too many > questions un-answered. Some day, my son, you will see the light. :-) It's all about Occam's Razor. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 16 22:23:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA25726 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:23:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26618 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:46:59 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA27247 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:47:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution Message-Id: <000000582713002046432@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:47:12 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Feb 16, 1999, 9:07:36 AM US CST Ian Dubman wrote: >deserves that extra add, because there is some measurable amount of increased >difficulty present. Be it not under the paradox definition, it has got to be >somewhere. And those are the thoughts of Eons... I don't have any problem with the idea that these moves are more difficult. I feel like a paradox reverse mirage is harder than a paradox mirage by a wide margin. The key is they are different. Paradox reverse mirage is difficult because you are doing what amounts to two dexterities: one over the bag and one back under the bag, going between the bag and the final destination. I don't have any reservations about awarding it some type of add. I just don't think its a body add. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 01:40:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA28307 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:40:02 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27148 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:13:40 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld61i.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.50]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA14266 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:13:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990216140927.006f2d6c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:09:27 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets In-Reply-To: References: <000000582663002045850@mlerf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> I still think Steve's explanation is essentially gibberish. It >> leaves too many >> questions un-answered. > >Some day, my son, you will see the light. :-) It's all about Occam's >Razor. Occam's Razor?! Are you saying that your paradox definition is "parsimonius"??? =) aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 01:40:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA28321 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:40:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26911 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:58:37 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld61i.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.50]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15202 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:58:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990216135423.006f4144@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:54:23 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] paradox(oh no) once again In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Someone said: >> Can moves set from the outside, kick or stall, be paradox? Steve said: >Sure, no problem. >The essense of paradox is that the dexterity is started and completed >on the far side of the support leg by the other leg. As long as the >set is on the outside of the support leg (even if the support leg >performed the set), the move can be paradox Someone also said: >>Now for my opinion. Using non blurry moves as a model blurry (or >>stepping paradox) moves should almost never get the paradox add. After >>the first dex the bag is on the "right" side of the plant leg there fore all bets >> are off. As I've said, this seems right, all the more so as I study the amorphous definition (an oxymoron? a paradox?) that is emerging mainly from the Goldberg/Fossil dialogue (after a stepping set, the bag is *not* on the outside of the support leg). Right now the moves that do and don't get the paradox add are not consistent under the best definitions that have come up. "Paradox" as currently applied seems to deconstruct under scrutiny as an arbitrarily applied bonus add. In the unlikely event that an actual definition of paradox is applied to the current system, add counts would of course change, but I don't think anyone should be too concerned with that until we know what *all* the changes would be. My own solution for keeping add counts fair is to keep paradox set from a clipper, stipulate that the "paradox dex" must be the first to occur, and award a bonus dex add for non-complementary multi-dex moves. Just in case y'all forgot... =) Because of my unmodified shoes, I end up setting LOTS of things from my outsides. Under current definitions, my smear would now be paradox, as would my d.l.o., and any number of other things. I would love the extra add, but I find it a little hard to swallow... peace aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 01:40:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA28338 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:40:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27627 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:32:44 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA04920 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:33:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets Message-Id: <000000583233002049181@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:33:01 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org (Freestyle Listserve) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Feb 16, 1999, 4:20:30 PM US CST Sunil Jani wrote: >curve (for out-in dexes) in order to be paradox (not just part of it). >An outside set paradox mirage is missing the first curve of the S (where I'm glad someone brought that up. To be brutally honest, a blur does not, either. A typical blur is this: Set from a cross-body Put that foot directly on the ground Lift the first dexterity leg over the bag and over the now-planted set foot Put the first dexterity leg down and do a regular mirage If you are talking about that S-curve, it does not exist in blur because executing a dexterity with the support leg removes the obstacle that you are going around. As a result, the dexterity of the first leg is also doing the dexterity over the was-set/now-support foot, rather than that set foot doing some s-curve behind the support leg. The fact is once the original setting foot has been planted in a blur there is absolutely no difference in it as opposed to a set from an outside (or a toe for that matter). Especially if you go ahead and do a pixie set from the outside (or toe). So for the sake of consistency in the application of an idea, are you ready to say blur is not paradox? ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 01:40:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA28341 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:40:55 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from ems.salk.edu (ems.salk.edu [198.202.69.12]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28406 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:20:15 -0800 Received: from [198.202.67.148] (198.202.67.148) by ems.salk.edu (Worldmail 1.3.167) for freestyle@footbag.org; 16 Feb 1999 15:22:11 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000000582663002045850@mlerf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:29:26 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Cameron D Kennedy Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id XAA21941 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >2) It is actually an additional element of dexterity difficulty. This can > best be explained by the "S" and "Alpha" curves of paradox moves. The > "S" curve is essentially a dexterity around the support foot; the "Alpha" > curve is essentially an "Over the bag and then back under it between > the bag and the final contact foot" dexterity. > *** This is what I propose as as the true "root" of paradox, but it is > really two very different elements Since the basis for the 'S' type paradox is in negotiating around the initial support leg, would it not make sense to say that for the 'S' type paradox the catch could be with any foot in any position, and on any side of the body ? Since the basis for the 'S; type is in negotiating around the initial support leg. While the alpha type of dexterity is more tightly regulated by the catch, since the essense of this move is the complete over and under dexterity? Thus a clipper set leg over will never get a paradox add, but reverse mirage from clipper will. 2¢, *plink plink* cameron From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 01:40:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA28360 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:40:59 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id RAA80840; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:20:32 -0500 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199902162220.RAA80840@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets To: dfogle@mlerf.org Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:20:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org In-Reply-To: <000000582663002045850@mlerf.org> from "Derrick Fogle, MLERF" at Feb 16, 99 03:37:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > > On Mon, Feb 15, 1999, 9:31:41 PM US CST Eric Wulff wrote: > > >Paradox From An Outside Set... Is it that big of a deal? It's paradox > >from an outside set for cryin out loud... This is so "old school" I'm > > > 2) It is actually an additional element of dexterity difficulty. This can > best be explained by the "S" and "Alpha" curves of paradox moves. The > "S" curve is essentially a dexterity around the support foot; the "Alpha" > curve is essentially an "Over the bag and then back under it between > the bag and the final contact foot" dexterity. > *** This is what I propose as as the true "root" of paradox, but it is > really two very different elements I cannot believe I am posting on this thread... Here goes... I like this idea of S and ALPHA descriptors for paradox concepts. However, I feel that if you go by this, then you must say that a move must have the FULL S curve (for in-out dexes) or the FULL ALPHA curve (for out-in dexes) in order to be paradox (not just part of it). An outside set paradox mirage is missing the first curve of the S (where the setting leg comes out from behind the support leg). A "paradox around the world" does not complete the final portion of the S dexterity. So I say there is no such thing as paradox from outside set and not such thing as paradox around the world (or whatever you want to call it). This does explain well the differences in a paradox motion vs a paradox reverse motion. I do not think a paradox is a dexterity per se (paradox mirage is not a double dex move, neither is paradox whirl). Though it does not perfectly fit in body, I think it fits there better. I am babbling... and I do not care to think about how this relates to spinning... sorry... Sunil I can feel a fossil, a brat, and a superhero taking aim on me as I type...gotta go hide... From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 01:42:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA28373 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:42:14 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f265.hotmail.com [207.82.251.156]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA28967 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:04:34 -0800 Received: (qmail 1483 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 1999 00:04:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19990217000417.1482.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.190.123 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:04:16 PST X-Originating-IP: [152.163.190.123] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:04:16 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Paradox From An Outside Set... Is it that big of a deal? It's >paradox from an outside set for cryin out loud... This is so "old >school." True dat. But it's still important to know what is and what isn't paradox. Paradox has two meanings to us footbaggers as eluded to by Derrick: 1. Paradox is an element of difficulty. 2. Paradox is a means of communication. Methinks it is best to concentrate on the latter rather than the former. Because paradox, and symposium, atomic, pogo, nuclear, pixie, stepping, etc., etc., are best left as means of communication. Forget about whether a move "deserves" the paradox add. Just figure out whether the darn thing is paradox or not by existing definitions so at least we can have some consistency. The add system's accuracy in judging difficulty has diminished markedly and will continue to do so as players continue to push the envelope. Dan Kramer NYFA(D) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 01:54:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA28960 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:54:14 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from kaos.atext.com (kaos.atext.com [204.62.245.13]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29947 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:28:25 -0800 Received: from [206.66.71.130] (dhcp130 [206.66.71.130]) by kaos.atext.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22600; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:28:49 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: brat@market.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990217000417.1482.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:29:11 -0800 To: "Daniel Kramer" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox and Outside Sets Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 4:04 PM -0800 2/16/99, Daniel Kramer wrote: > 1. Paradox is an element of difficulty. > 2. Paradox is a means of communication. Yes, exactly. 100% right. Steve From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 02:41:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA15155 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:41:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from ra.nilenet.com (root@ra.nilenet.com [204.227.31.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA30418 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:11:47 -0800 Received: from unknown (slip43.den.nilenet.net [206.247.98.45]) by ra.nilenet.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id TAA22768 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:09:40 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Daryl Genz" Subject: [freestyle] Vegas Jam Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 19:26:59 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id CAA15136 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey All, Just a qiuck last little note before I head out for Vegas! The turnout is HUGE and seems to keep growing day by day. New (or Corrected) attendees include: Sunil Jani Ethan Klein Derric Scalf Cameron D Kennedy Bob Green and Steve Howland (from Idaho Falls) I don't plan on spending much time away from the Strat, so it shouldn't be too difficult to locate at least one of the many attendees. You will likely find Rippin or Myself at the BlackJack tables right in the main lobby of the Stratosphere. For those of you that have never met us, just look for the Lavers and the footbags on the table (next to my huge pile of winnings ;->). Everyone seemed to find everyone else last year. I hope it works out this year too. The parking lot (re: www.footbag.org/events/) mentioned is directly across from the Strat's main entry, and the Parking Structure is out the door and to the LEFT from the main entry. Note that it was not a problem to kick there last year (don't try kicking in front of the main entry though ;-<) so HOPEFULLY it won't be one this year either. We can always pitch in for a conference room if worst comes to worst. See you there. Genzu From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 02:49:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA15692 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:49:49 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from ra.nilenet.com (root@ra.nilenet.com [204.227.31.1]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA30537; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:23:17 -0800 Received: from unknown (slip58.den.nilenet.net [206.247.98.60]) by ra.nilenet.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id TAA23247; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:21:10 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Daryl Genz" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Vegas Jam Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 19:38:30 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id CAA15181 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Left one out ... > New (or Corrected) attendees include: > > Sunil Jani > Ethan Klein > Derric Scalf > Cameron D Kennedy > Bob Green and Steve Howland (from Idaho Falls) **AND** the infamous James Roberts! From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 03:06:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA25099 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:06:02 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f89.hotmail.com [209.185.131.152]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA30710 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:40:17 -0800 Received: (qmail 23325 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 1999 02:40:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19990217024007.23324.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 139.67.16.81 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:40:06 PST X-Originating-IP: [139.67.16.81] From: "Frank Gutowski" To: ezian@theglobe.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:40:06 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ian, Are you saying you should get an extra add for a move simply because it is out-in, and not in-out? Frank From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 05:15:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA31320 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 05:15:46 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA232 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:32:35 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: (Ironman)spinning paradox solution Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:32:29 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be5a2e$8b35b1e0$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ian wrote.... > Could you please explain why you think paradox out-in does not deserve the >paradox?? I remember sometime in the past, you discussed how if you skool a >move it seems easier than if you don't. I have skooled this for a while and >it isn't getting any easier. I can bust reverse miraging osis(flux), >reverse miraging butterfly(legbeater), and reverse miraging opp mirage >(atomsmasher) all pretty consistently--I defined these for others, I am not >trying to insult your knowledge of the sport. So, to get to the friggin' >point, I think it deserves that extra add, because there is some measurable >amount of increased difficulty present. Be it not under the paradox >definition, it has got to be somewhere. And those are the thoughts of >Eons... Wassup Ian, you are certainly not "insulting my knowledge of the sport". Although I've heard of and seen flux before I wouldn't have remembered it's components if you didn't state them. Thanx.. As for your questions to me.. 1st My comment regarding the "bogus" paradox in reverse mirage was inspired by those who have commented to me that, "in a spin, the reverse mirage is not any harder on either side... So why make one of them paradox?" I say, the reverse mirage isn't harder on either side when set from a cross body either, so why worry about it in a spin. I don't think that "paradox" reverse mirage really has anything "paradox" about it and I don't feel that it is that much harder than a reverse mirage from x-body or any other set. I see these moves "the'd" all the time anyway but that's besides the point. Also, why isn't a barfly paradox then? I don't think it should be paradox, just using as another example of how weak the current paradox "definition" is. If a reverse mirage is paradox than how did a barfly ever get left out? Just cause it's got a butterfly after what would be the paradox dex? WEAK! 2nd The moves you described are not paradox. However, I'm assuming you knew that but are referring to the fact that their "paradox" counterparts are significantly harder. I AGREE But, and here's "The Friggin Point" my friend... these are not moves which start with reverse mirage. They start with "TAP". To me, saying a "reverse mirage", the move, is equivalent to "reverse mirage", as a set-(TAP), is like saying a symposium mirage and a mirage are the same thing. I talked about this at length some time ago and ain't doin it again now. Sorry... Anyway, the only out-in dex that I think feels paradox is the paradox tap.. move & set. To try and define paradox I will not. Not here & now anyway. Derrick is taking another "all inclusive" whack at it... more power to him. I've tried before and there's always been exceptions. I'm trying to include what seems obviously paradox based on the "Original" paradox mirage. Not what seems subtly paradox. Later Ironman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 05:28:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA31870 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 05:28:09 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Allman144@aol.com Received: from Allman144@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id MRLEa23166 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:01:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <468fa844.36ca4d1a@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:01:14 EST To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [freestyle] patching my bag Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey guys and gals, I am gonna make this quick. What should I use to patch up my Carol bag? It is my main bag that I kick with so I would appreciate it if you could reply ASAP. Thanks again! Tony Glick From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 08:12:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA23901 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:12:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA216 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:15:03 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:15:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01be5a3c$db4321a0$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hi Derrick, you said.. >I do feel strongly that even "old school" moves deserve the same care >and attention that bleeding-edge stuff does. Everyone has to start somewhere. >Paying attention to such 'lower-level' moves helps let newer players realize >that they are considered. I agree... just surprised that this hasn't been cleared up yet. Has this outside example been shot down in the past? That and spins are pretty obvious paradoxes which have been left out of the equation. Dex or Body... >If paradox is a body element, you've got to accept paradox from an >outside >set. If you accept paradox as a dexterity element, you DON'T necessarily >have >to accept paradox from an outside set. Furthermore, if you accept >paradox as >being, in actuality, several different 'problems' that really shouldn't be >unified, maybe we can get down to the nitty gritty and come up with solid >conceptualizations of what Paradox Type A is and what Paradox Type B >is. I don't think we should have to accept paradox as one or the other or the other anything. Perhaps you can get to the "nitty gritty" and come up with the definitionS. I'm not interested in working on it. Paradox defined "all inclusively" just ain't a priority for me at da moment. I'd just like to get rid of the "glaring" weaknesses. I'd like to see what your coming up with as you come up with it though. I'll certainly pitch in my thoughts regarding. In fact... here's one now... the "hips" do lead the way. I don't think the pivot is a result of the dex. I think we pivot with closed hips in order to execute the dex. But, perhaps I'm "grasping at those"... what was that you said last time??? I think you get the idear... Thanx for your thorough response Derrick... Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 16:47:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA06239 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:47:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mc-qout2.whowhere.com ([209.1.236.38]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA05316 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:17:38 -0800 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by theglobe.com; Wed Feb 17 08:17:30 1999 To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:17:30 -0000 From: "Ian Dubman" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution X-Sender-Ip: 128.206.236.67 Organization: E-Mail @ The Globe (http://www.globe-mail.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org -- On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:40:06 Frank Gutowski wrote: >Ian, >Are you saying you should get an extra add for a move simply because it >is out-in, and not in-out? >Frank No, definitely not. I am saying paradox reverse mirage is more difficult than reverse mirage. Do you agree?? I mean I think a paradox legbeater is much harder to bust than a legbeater. So, I beleive the extra add is justified for the paradox. It sounded like Eric was saying it was not. So, I just wanted to know how he could possibly NOT justify giving the add for the paradox version of the move. It had nothing to do with the direction of the dex, except that Iman said something like(I am not quoting)that paradox out-in is bogus, whether in a spinning move or not. So, why should you only consider the in-out a paradox?? Get it?? Good. Late, Ian Oh and uh Frank, I am still wanting that pillowcase. "Free web-based email available now at http://www.theglobe.com" From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 17:26:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA16540 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:26:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05626 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:57:56 -0800 Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (root@rac3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.143]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.0.Beta6/8.9.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id LAA00989 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:58:11 -0500 (EST) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.0.Beta6/8.9.0.Beta6) with SMTP id LAA03531 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.0.Beta6/8.9.0.Beta6) id LAA03527 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:58:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:58:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902171658.LAA03527@rac3.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] paradox Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org yeah, Right!!! AS IF !!!!!!!! oh, DanK, you da man. the great INstig8r strikes again. l8r homeys, don't take yourselves so seriously. we are talking bean bags here. -procrastan8r From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 18:21:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA03282 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:21:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA11762 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:40:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets Message-Id: <000000587913002118010@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:40:10 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org ('freestyle') MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Feb 17, 1999, 12:15:01 AM US CST Eric Wulff wrote: >regarding. In fact... here's one now... the "hips" do lead the way. I >don't think the pivot is a result of the dex. I think we pivot with closed >hips in order to execute the dex. But, perhaps I'm "grasping at those"... That's OK, hey. To a certain extent, I don't mind if paradox is defined as that hip-pivot body add. If it is, though, I want all the moves that contain the element to be included, which they currently aren't. And the moves that don't contain that element to be excluded, too. On the other hand, I don't really mind if paradox is two totally different things: one type of paradox (Type A) is the hip pivot classic paradox mirage- style move. a second type of paradox (Type B) is the "more than a full circle kind of dex" type of dexterity that is seen in paradox reverse mirage. That's part of what I've been driving at, and what you seem to be saying too, is that these two moves are totally different, and the reverse mirage is not necessarily a paradox-class move. Most people (including me) seem to think the reverse mirage style move is worthy of some kind of additional difficulty assignment, especially if the Type A paradox gets some kind of additional difficulty assignment. And I agree that paradox reverse mirage and regular reverse mirage are somewhat indistinguishable. Both seem more difficult that thier non-reverse counterparts. But where do you draw that line of distinction? (haven't I asked that before?) I personally think Clipper -> Opp Out-In -> Opp Toe is just as "paradox" as paradox reverse mirage. But man does that open up a can of worms! But really truly settling on the hip pivot as the definition of paradox type A opens up cans of worms too. I also agree that you can have paradox after a spin if the dexterity really opposes the spin motion. That seems to be consistent with the Paradox Type A concept, where the the direction of the dexterity opposes the direction of the pivot you have to make to get around the bag. In the spinning variety, you're just opposing a much larger gross body movement. And what about paradox dragonfly, for those that argue that the S-curve style needs to end up all the way on the ground? It sure doesn't in paradox dragonfly. Yet that move is commonly considered paradox. Oohhh... I think I'm wearing myself out in this paradox thing. Remember, I'm an old fossil that can't quite keep it up like I used to... ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Wed Feb 17 19:13:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id TAA22336 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:13:30 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from ems.salk.edu (ems.salk.edu [198.202.69.12]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07794 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:45:56 -0800 Received: from [198.202.67.148] (198.202.67.148) by ems.salk.edu (Worldmail 1.3.167) for freestyle@footbag.org; 17 Feb 1999 10:47:55 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:55:13 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Cameron D Kennedy Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >And I agree that paradox reverse mirage and regular reverse mirage are >somewhat indistinguishable. Both seem more difficult that thier non-reverse >counterparts. But where do you draw that line of distinction? (haven't I asked >that before?) I personally think Clipper -> Opp Out-In -> Opp Toe is just as >"paradox" as paradox reverse mirage. But man does that open up a can of worms! >But really truly settling on the hip pivot as the definition of paradox type A >opens up cans of worms too. > I think that clipper set reverse mirage fits the classical double hip pivot definition of paradox, as well as the more than a full dex class of move. * Clipper -> Opp Out-In -> Opp Toe * Do we still call this move Bubba ? cameron From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 02:44:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA05544 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:44:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f168.hotmail.com [207.82.251.54]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA08715 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:01:16 -0800 Received: (qmail 11703 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 1999 20:01:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19990217200110.11702.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.190.214 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:01:10 PST X-Originating-IP: [152.163.190.214] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets/Bubba Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:01:10 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >I think that clipper set reverse mirage fits the classical double hip >pivot definition of paradox, as well as the more than a full dex >class of move. * Clipper -> Opp Out-In -> Opp Toe * >Do we still call this move Bubba ? Speaking of Bubba, what do you think of this move: Gyro Reverse-Miraging Osis or Gyro Bubba Osis Basically a Moebius with a reverse mirage instead of a mirage. By current definitions (Bubba not being paradox), this move would be a measley 5 adds. A move that hasn't been hit yet, and a move that many might think is impossible to hit at all...5 adds. My $.02 DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 04:53:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA12450 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:53:59 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA222 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:51:04 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: paradox(oh no) once again Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:51:06 -0800 Message-ID: <000801be5ae9$88999940$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org As support for the theory that a blur or step move does not contain a paradox Aaron wrote what some others also hyped... >(after a stepping set, the bag is *not* on the >outside of the support leg). This is not supporting evidence. FLASH!.. After ANY set for paradox the bag is *not* on the outside of the support leg. That is what the hip pivot is for... aligning your body so that the bag is "inside". When doing a step or blurry followed by a paradox one simply incorporates a dex into the pivot which brings the bag inside where one can do the dex. When I do a stepping mirage, I open my hips and then close without almost no pivot before the dex. When doing a blur, my hips close asap during/following the first dex so I can pivot for the next. The paradox can be felt even more strongly in Stepping-Paradox-DLO & Blurry Dragonflyer than it can in paradox DLO or paradox dragonfly. This debate really baffles me. People have been trying to put the feel of this concept into words from day one. Just cause you can't box it... you can't suggest erasing it. How's it feeeeeeeeeeel? The feel of paradox came before the name and the name came before the definition. No paradox in blur, fog, blurry dragonflyer compared to stepping mirage, haze, stepping dragonfly???... I'd have to question how often anyone with this opinion does moves like these. I'm not harping on anyone's style or level of play with that comment. My reason being... if you did em... you'd feel the difference... No matter what your style... You'd feel the paradox... Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 04:59:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA12484 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:59:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA264 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:01:03 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: paradox(oh no) once again Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:01:06 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01be5aea$edc4d720$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Aaron wrote... >Because of my unmodified shoes, I end up setting LOTS of things from my >outsides. Under current definitions, my smear would now be paradox, as >would my d.l.o., and any number of other things. I would love the extra >add, but I find it a little hard to swallow... You can't set from your toe because your shoes aren't modified???? If you're referring to the way many people tie their lavers nowadays, many did toes looooonnnnnggggg before there where any mods of any kind. Also, many do toes with Tevas, and Red Shred... well... Also, I've kicked with you many times and have yet to see you do a DLO from an outside delay. I don't see how anyone with whatever style 'O' style could replace toes with outsides. Not even Derrick Fogle... and that guys got outsides goin on biff!!.... You lost me on this one... Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 05:01:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA12505 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:01:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA195 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:12:07 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: paradox on outside sets Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:12:10 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01be5aec$79e6c0a0$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dank said... >True dat. But it's still important to know what is and what isn't >paradox. That it is my friend. Just can't believe this hasn't come up before and if it had... I'm suprised it got shot down. It's worthy.. still.. so damn old school I can't believe it's in debate. ironman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 05:01:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA12518 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:01:42 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mail-smtp.socket.net (mail-smtp.socket.net [216.106.1.15]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15940 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:04:16 -0800 Received: from mail.socket.net (mail.socket.net [216.106.1.7]) by mail-smtp.socket.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02768 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:04:22 -0600 Received: from alpha-1 ([216.106.19.131]) by mail.socket.net ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:55:03 -0600 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:05:39 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Jeremiah Riely Reply-To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-Mailer: Mail Warrior 2 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets/Bubba MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer-Version: v2.03a Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Gyro Reverse-Miraging Osis or Gyro Bubba Osis > >Basically a Moebius with a reverse mirage instead of a mirage. > >By current definitions (Bubba not being paradox), this move would be a >measley 5 adds. A move that hasn't been hit yet, and a move that many >might think is impossible to hit at all...5 adds. Red Fred Husted hits this move, and it is crazy. He just calls it a gyro flux. He can also hit gyro eggbeater i believe. From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 05:02:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id FAA12531 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:02:43 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA68 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:40:29 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:40:32 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01be5af0$704b8180$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derrick Fogle replied on 2/17/99 at 11:40:10 a.m. with 6 paragraphs to one of my posts. I won't burden y'll by copying the entire thing again here. My reply to the middle 4 paragraphs of his reply is... Yes... Yep.. uh Huh.. and ABSOLUTELY! and it is... I think I'm with ya on this Derrick... uhh.. 1 statement definitely worth copying again would be... Derrick also said.. >Oohhh... I think I'm wearing myself out in this paradox thing. Remember, I'm >an old fossil that can't quite keep it up like I used to... No excuses man.. you can't get off that easy :).. be'n the "muff divin fool" you claim to be.. you can keep on goin... no reason to stop now... :<() Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 07:18:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA04141 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:18:20 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17064 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:25:54 -0800 Received: from SPRYNETSPRY337196 (hil-c45-061-vty181.as.wcom.net [199.174.241.181]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17137 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:26:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902180626.WAA17137@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:31:18 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hmmm... I don't know where to draw the line on all of the naming conventions, but I kind of like to think of them like math solutions---simplify. I would have to call this move a gyro flux. It's all the same to me though. gyro reverse miraging osis gyro bubba osis mobius with a reverse mirage instead of a mirage This hasn't been hit yet? I'm surprised! Come on guys...maybe a little less time on the Internet, eh? ;-) see ya, jane ---------- : From: Daniel Kramer : To: freestyle@footbag.org : Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets/Bubba : Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 12:01 PM : : >I think that clipper set reverse mirage fits the classical double hip : >pivot definition of paradox, as well as the more than a full dex >class : of move. * Clipper -> Opp Out-In -> Opp Toe * : >Do we still call this move Bubba ? : : Speaking of Bubba, what do you think of this move: : : Gyro Reverse-Miraging Osis or Gyro Bubba Osis : : Basically a Moebius with a reverse mirage instead of a mirage. : : By current definitions (Bubba not being paradox), this move would be a : measley 5 adds. A move that hasn't been hit yet, and a move that many : might think is impossible to hit at all...5 adds. : : My $.02 : : DK : : : ______________________________________________________ : Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 08:42:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA06075 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:42:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA17964; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:12:02 -0800 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #33464) with SMTP id <0F7C00901C4SPW@clem.mscd.edu>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:12:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:12:28 -0700 (MST) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution In-reply-to: To: Steve Goldberg Cc: Ian Dubman , freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Steve Goldberg wrote: > term "completing the dexterity" is the key. There's been a lot of > discussion in the past about the fact that there are actually 4 types > of (single-) dexterities: 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full. > certainly not under dispute (is it?) that blizzard and blur are both > the same level of difficult -- 4 adds in the current system). What about Barfly? It surely completes at least one full out-in dexterity and then I suppose the second one is considered a 1/2. But I believe it's only worth 4 adds. Am I correct? If so then shouldn't it be 5 by the above explanation? Don't get your feathers ruffled it's just a question. BRAD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 17:05:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id RAA07469 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:05:01 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f57.hotmail.com [207.82.251.69]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA21663 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:32:35 -0800 Received: (qmail 6533 invoked by uid 0); 18 Feb 1999 14:32:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19990218143233.6532.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.27.84.195 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:32:33 PST X-Originating-IP: [38.27.84.195] From: "Brian Waligorski" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] The New Guy Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:32:33 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey peoples, I am new to the list, and I must say this whole paradox argument is pretty interesting. I like the fact that you guys examine the small details. Anyway, (this will show just how much of a newbie I am :( ) I can't for the life of me pull a torque with any amount of control. The spin after the in-out dex wont come out fast enough and I end up jumping up too much so the bag has already hit the ground before I my feet do. What can I do to fix this? Brian Waligorski ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 18:43:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA03917 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:43:15 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24281 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:02:05 -0800 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA00809 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:02:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from dal-tx46-54.ix.netcom.com(198.211.44.182) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000693; Thu Feb 18 12:00:25 1999 Message-ID: <36CC5901.3194@utdallas.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:16:33 -0600 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: scalf@utdallas.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] tendons, tendons, tendons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello all. I may have asked a while back, but I don't think I ever got an answer. So, here is my question. I have hurt a tendon in my left knee. It feels like I might have some sort of tendonitis or something. Anyway, what is better for an older (a month) tendon injury? Heat or cold? Any ideas on cross training excersises that will strengthen knees to keep this from happening again? Thanks. -D From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 18:43:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA03934 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:43:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24191 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:57:12 -0800 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA00113 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:57:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from dal-tx46-54.ix.netcom.com(198.211.44.182) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000027; Thu Feb 18 11:56:16 1999 Message-ID: <36CC580A.89B@utdallas.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:12:26 -0600 From: Derric Scalf Reply-To: scalf@utdallas.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: torques - was Re: [freestyle] The New Guy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Brian Waligorski wrote: > I > can't for the life of me pull a torque with any amount of control. The > spin after the in-out dex wont come out fast enough and I end up jumping > up too much so the bag has already hit the ground before I my feet do. > What can I do to fix this? > There are two types of torques. I think it was Josh P who coined the phrases 'extra crispy' and 'original recipe'. If you are setting the bag (from clipper) and *then* doing a mirage type of dexterity, that is your problem. I find it easier to do the 'crispy' style. This means that you do a blurry set and then bail to osis. If you are hitting blur or stepping butterfly, a crispy torque should be easy for you. Concentrate on getting the big blur set, and then turn a little and catch it on an osis. Try playing out of torque with another big ol' blur set. I've hit 12 torques in a row with this strategy. Really, I think that a crispy torque is one of the easier 4s. As for the 'original' torque, the whole move is done all at once. I've been working on this style without a whole lot of luck. Think of the set like a drifter or a double legover. You kind of hop off of your support leg as you set the bag (a little below waist high). That way, you have set the bag, and as your set foot is returning to the ground, your original support leg is already up and going over the bag. At that point, just hop off of your set foot as you spin into the osis. Try a toe set torque (toe > op in > op osis). This will help get the all in one type of motion down. I think that the 'original' torque is better than the 'crispy' torque because it resembles pdx and toe set torques. Playing out of an 'original' torque may be a bit more difficult... it is for me. Torques are cool. Try getting them with both styles on both sides. If anything that I wrote doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to clear it up. Shred hard. -Derric Dallas Footbag Club From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 19:23:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id TAA14219 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:23:41 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send102.yahoomail.com (send102.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.90]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA24965 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:24 -0800 Message-ID: <19990218185055.22821.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.186.150] by send102.yahoomail.com; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:55 PST Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:55 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets/Bubba To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dan wrote: > Gyro Reverse-Miraging Osis or Gyro Bubba Osis. > measley 5 adds. A move that hasn't been hit yet, and a move that many > might think is impossible to hit at all...5 adds. It's a Gyro Flux, it has a cooler name given by Red Husted, who fyi has hit it. Eli see y'all in Vegas!! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:20:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27040 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:20:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f35.hotmail.com [207.82.250.46]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA26729 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:03:15 -0800 Received: (qmail 8500 invoked by uid 0); 18 Feb 1999 20:03:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19990218200311.8499.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.190.1 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:03:11 PST X-Originating-IP: [152.163.190.1] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Paradox and Outside Sets/Bubba Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:03:11 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >It's a Gyro Flux, it has a cooler name given by Red Husted, who fyi >has hit it. That Red must be pretty good. ;-) I'd still like to see it with my own 2 peepers. Does he use a zoom set or what? DK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:20:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27039 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:20:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: (qmail 9391 invoked by uid 0); 18 Feb 1999 21:52:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19990218215250.9390.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.60.118.235 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:52:28 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.60.118.235] From: "Allan Haggett" To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] "the'd" Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:52:28 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all, Just wondering if anyone has asked Kenny why he called doing the motion of a dex but not actually getting your foot around the bag "the'ing" or "tha'ing"? NOT to dispute how or why or anything(I would never do such a thing as to doubt 'the creator'), but I was just wondering if there was any logic behind the name like there is behind paradox. Just sounded right? I like 'Quasi' as a descriptor for this element as it has more of a literal meaning. Also I've been thinking a lot about politics lately and how the footbag world is rather political. I suppose this is inescapeable, but what really got me thinking about it was not seeing Peter Irish's name on the '98 Worlds open singles freestyle roster. After winning five times was he just tired of competing in this realm? I really don't mean to s**t disturb if this is a sensitive topic; just wondering:-) Hey while I'm at it, was doing what we call a 'rooted' set ie: right toe stall(inside, x-body... whatever), plant this foot on the ground with the bag still on it and hop set, doing whatever.... have executed 'rooted spinning butterfly', 'rooted twirl' etc... I'm gonna assume that this is really rather 'old school' but hey 'old', 'new' I prefer to be 'All school'. Already named? For now... Allan Haggett Victoria, BC ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:20:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27029 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:20:55 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f77.hotmail.com [207.82.250.183]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA28273 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:42:37 -0800 Received: (qmail 15984 invoked by uid 0); 18 Feb 1999 21:42:37 -0000 Message-ID: <19990218214237.15983.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.27.84.152 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:42:37 PST X-Originating-IP: [38.27.84.152] From: "Brian Waligorski" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] tendons, tendons, tendons Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:42:37 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, my mother has really bad knees too so I can tell you what she does to strenghten her knees. She told me that she uses the excercise bikes, and your average gym leg curl machines. She also stands on the stairs with most of her foot off the back and just stands up on her toes over and over. Its a calf excercise but thats what she told me (cause I have a bad knee too). Brian Waligorski P.S. Thanks for the torque advice, although I can't do a blur yet, but I know what set you are talking about. I'll work on it. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:21:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27051 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:21:00 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send106.yahoomail.com (send106.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.43]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25363 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:08:03 -0800 Message-ID: <19990218190835.12566.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.186.150] by send106.yahoomail.com; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:08:35 PST Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:08:35 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] another convert To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Also, many do toes with Tevas, and Red Shred... well... Oh, gosh, I'm sorry, but the CO posse has another Teva convert- the one and only Red Shred Husted. Eli From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:21:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27050 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:21:00 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: aadegl@mindspring.com Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28283 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:42:46 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld676.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.230]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25369 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:43:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990218133839.006f4a20@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:38:39 -0800 To: Arun di GlandVille Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox(oh no) once again In-Reply-To: <000a01be5aea$edc4d720$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >You can't set from your toe because your shoes aren't modified???? It depends on which tricks I'm linking. >If you're referring to the way many people tie their lavers nowadays, many >did toes looooonnnnnggggg before there where any mods of any kind. Also, >many do toes with Tevas, and Red Shred... well... ??? What *about* Red Shred? He's *always* been circumcised, like the rest o' the sneaker-stylers (I've decided to complile my own shred tape: Aaron "double-A" de Glanville, Uncut"). I'm surprised you've never noticed this, but it's true: uncut, I can only pull "true" toe delays out of certain tricks (usually those ending with in-out dexes, like smear). Linking out of others (usually those ending with out-in dexes, like dlo) usually causes me to fall back on that weird sweet spot that I have, where it looks like I shot for a toe, but the bag ends up on the frontal-outside. My swifter is always "outside" because that's usually where the bag ends up after my dlo... Style with me Sunday and judge for yourself. No way could I hit 5 consecutive dlos without outside sets (though the first one is always from a toe). Hell, maybe I should just switch to Tevas... Are there any other "uncut" stylers who find themselves favoring this "outside" sweet spot, e.g. while doing legovers? aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:21:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27076 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:21:05 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: aadegl@mindspring.com Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28556 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:01:46 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld676.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.230]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA30423 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:01:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990218135707.006c8d98@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:57:07 -0800 To: Orin Da GlinVille Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox(oh no) once again In-Reply-To: <000801be5ae9$88999940$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >FLASH!.. After ANY set for paradox the bag is *not* on the outside of the >support leg. What, not after pdx mirage, drifter, or torque??? >if you did em... you'd feel the >difference... No matter what your style... You'd feel the paradox... I believe you. It's interesting to me how a Wulff/Wede-style blur is in two neat parts, unlike the Shults original, which looks (and I would guess feels) more "paradoxical" (I've never pulled a Wulff-style blur). The "paradox" feeling, I think, is less 'there or *not* there' than on a continuum (things can 'feel' more or less). But I'm assuming you appreciate that judging which tricks are paradox by how they *feel* is the very opposite of objective criteria, which I believe is what people are taking a fresh stab at formulating. Don't atom smasher and legbeater feel paradox to you? And does one feel it "twice" in a paradox atomshmasher (Eli?)? Feelings change... =) peace aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:21:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27097 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:21:08 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28612 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:02:59 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld676.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.230]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10223 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:03:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990218135854.006fa178@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:58:54 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox(oh no) once again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >FLASH!.. After ANY set for paradox the bag is *not* on the outside of the >support leg. What, not after pdx mirage, drifter, or torque??? >if you did em... you'd feel the >difference... No matter what your style... You'd feel the paradox... I believe you. It's interesting to me how a Wulff/Wede-style blur is in two neat parts, unlike the Shults original, which looks (and I would guess feels) more "paradoxical" (I've never pulled a Wulff-style blur). The "paradox" feeling, I think, is less 'there or *not* there' than on a continuum (things can 'feel' more or less). But I'm assuming you appreciate that judging which tricks are paradox by how they *feel* is the very opposite of objective criteria, which I believe is what people are taking a fresh stab at formulating. Don't atom smasher and legbeater feel paradox to you? And does one feel it "twice" in a paradox atomshmasher (Eli?)? Feelings change... =) peace aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:21:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27115 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:21:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28584 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:02:05 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld676.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.230]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27643 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:02:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990218135802.006c847c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:58:02 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox(oh no) once again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >You can't set from your toe because your shoes aren't modified???? It depends on which tricks I'm linking. >If you're referring to the way many people tie their lavers nowadays, many >did toes looooonnnnnggggg before there where any mods of any kind. Also, >many do toes with Tevas, and Red Shred... well... ??? What *about* Red Shred? He's *always* been circumcised, like the rest o' the sneaker-stylers (I've decided to complile my own shred tape: Aaron "double-A" de Glanville, Uncut"). I'm surprised you've never noticed this, but it's true: uncut, I can only pull "true" toe delays out of certain tricks (usually those ending with in-out dexes, like smear). Linking out of others (usually those ending with out-in dexes, like dlo) usually causes me to fall back on that weird sweet spot that I have, where it looks like I shot for a toe, but the bag ends up on the frontal-outside. My swifter is always "outside" because that's usually where the bag ends up after my dlo... Style with me Sunday and judge for yourself. No way could I hit 5 consecutive dlos without outside sets (though the first one is always from a toe). Hell, maybe I should just switch to Tevas... Are there any other "uncut" stylers who find themselves favoring this "outside" sweet spot, e.g. while doing legovers? aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 18 23:21:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA27129 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:21:16 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28137 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:36:01 -0800 Received: from hh1114112.direcpc.com ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA9159 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:36:55 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19990218162212.00949940@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:38:05 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Matt Avery Subject: [freestyle] whirlwind Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey shreddas! During a shred session today I nailed a whirlwind! One sweet move...and since my symposium whirls are solid it wasnt too hard to learn. I've been told whirlwind is a spinning symposium whirl right? Wouldnt it contain a paradox element, making it a spinning pdx symp whir? 6 add? It looks like Mulroney hits one in the "UQAM JAM" video by Sean Wingert. Symposium barfly to a whirlwind correct? Its about time I switched religions to "Mulroneyism"... Amen sista. As for the debate about the correct way to do a torque: Torque really isnt that hard once you get it down...with practice it becomes one of those moves you can throuw into strings without thinking about it. I dont see any excuse for anyone to shred that move with a blurry set bail to osis...I think it looks a lot better all done in one fluent motion. Challenge yourselves.... Damn paradox , Damn the add system. I got the new system planned out right here: 1)crap 2)hein simple enough? I think itd get rid of all the anual debates about the add system and pdox elements. I mean, everytime someone new gets on the list the subject always comes up. Shred hard guys. Get off the net, and shred some. Forget pdox. Matt ( preach to me baby ) Avery PS- Origonal recipe man... you do too much of that extra crispy stuff and your arteries will clog. Then you die From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 01:11:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA00885 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:11:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29670 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:17:30 -0800 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA01142 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:18:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [freestyle] whirlwind Message-Id: <000000598333002224678@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:17:58 -0600 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.0.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, Feb 18, 1999, 6:38:05 PM US CST Matt Avery wrote: >Shred hard guys. Get off the net, and shred some. Forget pdox. >Matt ( preach to me baby ) Avery >PS- Origonal recipe man... you do too much of that extra crispy stuff and >your arteries will clog. Then you die Unfortunately, some of us enjoy the mental excercise of conceptualization and debate as much as we enjoy the physical excercise of footbag. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle the MUFF fossil that excercises ALL the body's pieces-parts From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 01:11:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA00893 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:11:44 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f168.hotmail.com [207.82.251.54]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA29706 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:17:56 -0800 Received: (qmail 26032 invoked by uid 0); 18 Feb 1999 23:17:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19990218231757.26031.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.148.217.213 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:17:57 PST X-Originating-IP: [128.148.217.213] From: "KeN Somolinos" To: aadegl@mindspring.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: paradox(oh no) once again Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:17:57 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all. Aaron wrote: . Don't atom smasher >and legbeater feel paradox to you? I think you could argue that for atom smasher, but i doubt anyone would argue a legbeater feels pdx in the least. Ken "cf" Somolinos nyfD ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 02:15:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA20506 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:15:19 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA31326 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:04:33 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld676.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.152.230]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA03510 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:05:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990218170030.006fce00@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:00:30 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville In-Reply-To: <000000598333002224678@mlerf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >>Shred hard guys. Get off the net, and shred some. Forget pdox. >>Matt ( preach to me baby ) Avery > > >Unfortunately, some of us enjoy the mental excercise of conceptualization and >debate as much as we enjoy the physical excercise of footbag. hear, hear... (well maybe not quite *as* much...) =) aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 04:17:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA27113 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:17:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA248 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:09:14 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: whirlwind Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:09:16 -0800 Message-ID: <001501be5bac$dae07c00$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Matt Avery wrote... >I've been told whirlwind is a spinning symposium whirl right? Wouldnt it >contain a paradox element, making it a spinning pdx symp whir? 6 add? No and... >As for the debate about the correct way to do a torque: Torque really isnt >that hard once you get it down. Um... nothings that hard once you get it down. Eric "the sarcastic bastard" Wulff From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 04:17:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA27118 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:17:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f247.hotmail.com [207.82.251.138]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA32482 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:40:05 -0800 Received: (qmail 3196 invoked by uid 0); 19 Feb 1999 02:40:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19990219024007.3195.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.25.108.130 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:40:06 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.25.108.130] From: "James Holt" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] help Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:40:06 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Every1, I really have a problem, I have been kicking the bag for about 2 or 3 years but only stalling and hitting moves this past 3 months, I can only hit mirage, leg over, and butterfly and all those only on one side I have really been trying to build up my skill on my weak side but Im in a rut. But even worse... I have been very discuraged latly and I havent hit a new move in a long time it seems I am loseing the thrill of footbag but I wish I still had it. does any1 have any ideas for either of these problems? James *orange* Holt ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 04:17:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA27107 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:17:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA61 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:54:44 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] "All School" Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:54:46 -0800 Message-ID: <001401be5baa$d41b9d20$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org "ALL SCHOLL!" Yeh! Dats what its all abouts biff ironman From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 04:18:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA27146 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:18:19 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA183 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:52:55 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Teva's Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:52:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001301be5baa$93420d20$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ssup CO shreddin Teva heads... How are Teva's for flyers? Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 04:18:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id EAA27159 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:18:39 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA32578 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:50:43 -0800 Received: from hh1114112.direcpc.com ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA14872 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:51:54 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19990218212815.00943100@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:53:03 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Matt Avery Subject: [freestyle] Crap/Hein Sys. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey guys, I was sitting her tonight, talking on the 'puter, when all the sudden I had the most unbelievable, most killer, most incredable idea. A revolution for the add system. Raising the boundries of ye adds to purify humanity, and grace in the system itself. To serve the starving freestyle comuniy, to better hand the ...... wait a second here.... Ok. Enough of my blabering. Here 't is. crappiest. crappier. crap. hein. heiner. heinest Notice the form: No modifiers...ahhh yeah. The savior has descended upon us. Amen. -Avery From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 06:37:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA10602 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 06:37:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f From: Nageylum@aol.com Received: from Nageylum@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WDUNa04796; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:05:44 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:05:44 EST To: ewulff@jsishipping.com, freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [freestyle] Teva's Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 2/18/99 10:54:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ewulff@jsishipping.com writes: > Ssup CO shreddin Teva heads... > > How are Teva's for flyers? > > Eric will this be the end of eric as a laver's kicker? could he really switch to the velcro of tevas?? stay tuned. same i-man time, same i-man station. Josh Childs From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 06:37:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA10597 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 06:37:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: (qmail 20264 invoked by uid 0); 19 Feb 1999 05:35:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19990219053500.20263.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.60.118.227 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:34:59 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.60.118.227] From: "Allan Haggett" To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] injured? Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:34:59 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Derric, >I have hurt a tendon in my left knee. It feels like I might have >some >sort of tendonitis or something. Anyway, what is better for an older >(a >month) tendon injury? Heat or cold? Any ideas on cross training >excersises that will strengthen knees to keep this from happening >again? One word for ya man, ACUPUNCTURE. allan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 06:37:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA10622 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 06:37:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01050 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:36:06 -0800 Received: from aaron (user-38ld702.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.156.2]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAB15936 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:36:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990218203158.006c8264@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: aadegl@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:31:58 -0800 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Aaron de Glanville Subject: Re: [freestyle] help In-Reply-To: <19990219024007.3195.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > I really have a problem, I have been kicking the bag for about 2 or 3 >years but only stalling and hitting moves this past 3 months, I can only >hit mirage, leg over, and butterfly and all those only on one side I >have really been trying to build up my skill on my weak side but Im in a >rut. But even worse... I have been very discuraged latly and I havent >hit a new move in a long time it seems I am loseing the thrill of >footbag but I wish I still had it. does any1 have any ideas for either >of these problems? I have a feeling that you'll get a lot of feedback on this; most of the "senior" players will easily relate. What's more, the phenomenon you're describing applies at all levels of play--the discouragement, the rut, the waning enthusiasm. Plenty of people do drop out of the sport--it doesn't hold everyone's interest--but it's so important to remember that these feelings are cyclical. They inevitably alternate with periods of inspiration, and renewed surges of progress. So one answer is just "hang in there"... One thing that refreshes my interest is playing with others, *especially* people who are better than me. Not all of you up-and-coming stylers have that luxury, but if you can at all engineer it, you should. My own 'skooling' regimen (when I'm not slacking) includes watching freestyle on video, traditional 'hack circles' with less experienced players, and practicing both alone and with other 'stylers: drilling/attempting some tricks repeatedly, experimenting with new things, working on routines... Build *variety* into your practice, however you can. Make sure you're trying new things! Have you shot for double-legover yet? It was my first double-dexterity move, and you already have the components (mirage and legover). Set a BIG mirage from your toe, and then try to get that second leg around it (catching on the same toe you set from). Set high and close to the body, and jump high! If you read notation, it's "toe>op in-out dex>op out-in dex>same toe". Hope this helps... peace aa From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 06:38:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id GAA10635 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 06:38:44 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA191; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:57:28 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: , Subject: RE: [freestyle] Teva's Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:57:23 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be5bc4$592272a0$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org he he.... I thought this might get a response such as this... -----Original Message----- From: Nageylum@aol.com [mailto:Nageylum@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:06 PM To: ewulff@jsishipping.com; freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Teva's In a message dated 2/18/99 10:54:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ewulff@jsishipping.com writes: > Ssup CO shreddin Teva heads... > > How are Teva's for flyers? > > Eric will this be the end of eric as a laver's kicker? could he really switch to the velcro of tevas?? stay tuned. same i-man time, same i-man station. Josh Childs From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 07:03:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA11209 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:03:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA229 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:34:37 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: Paradox (oh no) once again Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01be5bd1$ecf193a0$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org aaron d wrote... >But I'm assuming you appreciate that judging which tricks are paradox by >how they *feel* is the very opposite of objective criteria, which I believe >is what people are taking a fresh stab at formulating. Some things can't be objectively measured. FREE........STYLE also... >Don't atom smasher >and legbeater feel paradox to you? And does one feel it "twice" in a >paradox atomshmasher (Eli?)? No &... NO Oh, and it's not the shoes..... Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 07:47:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id HAA30193 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:47:42 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02328 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:17:55 -0800 Received: from SPRYNETSPRY337196 (sfr-qbu-pqj-vty145.as.wcom.net [206.175.228.145]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02546 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:18:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902190718.XAA02546@m9.sprynet.com> Reply-To: From: "Jane Jones" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] help Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:27:39 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey there James and all, Talk about ruts! I just came out of a major one last summer. Hopefully your rut wont last as long as mine did, and hopefully you remain loyal to footbag for its other pleasures long enough that one day *poof* you hit a new move that you've been skooling for weeks, months, or years and along with that single move comes a handful of others. I got stuck on a plateau between 3 and 4 adds. slowly made the cross over by hitting paradon and torque. all of the sudden I was able to pull a bunch more new moves just by skooling them a little bit for a week or two...ahhh, just like the good 'ol days when I was pulling my first atw's, butterflies and mirages. I remember when I thought an around the world was such a quick motion, and now, doubles don't even seem to be all that fast anymore(okay, not always). Don't be discouraged...I was stuck for over a year, but I still loved kicking and watching other people bust fat combos around me...not to mention, the kickin' tunes. (okay, pun intended). Sometimes I get frustrated when I see a new kicker that's been playing for 3 months hit a 4 add move that it took me 4 years of skooling on and off to pull. oh yeah, just another side thought-- sometimes I've found that I can over skool and the best remedy for my style is to hide my bags for little bit and play something else. when I come back to freestyle, it turns out I'm kicking better than before I stopped. okay, it's all coming back to me now. During that time I was in a rut, I just kept skooling my bad side for all the 2's and 3's I did now and trying different combos. I think that helped a lot with my balance and kept my confidence up because I was still hitting moves for the first time on my weakside---probably helped me avoid some injuries too. once I was strong on both sides both directions I must have inadvertently had developed the strength for new moves. Whatever you do, just keep kicking! Sorry, no exceptional advice. relating is my only medicine here. see ya, Jane ---------- : From: James Holt : To: freestyle@footbag.org : Subject: [freestyle] help : Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 6:40 PM : : Every1, : I really have a problem, I have been kicking the bag for about 2 or 3 : years but only stalling and hitting moves this past 3 months, I can only : hit mirage, leg over, and butterfly and all those only on one side I : have really been trying to build up my skill on my weak side but Im in a : rut. But even worse... I have been very discuraged latly and I havent : hit a new move in a long time it seems I am loseing the thrill of : footbag but I wish I still had it. does any1 have any ideas for either : of these problems? : James *orange* Holt : : : : ______________________________________________________ : Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 08:03:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id IAA31229 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:03:24 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02549 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:36:08 -0800 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #33464) with SMTP id <0F7E00O01554EO@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:36:40 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:36:40 -0700 (MST) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution In-reply-to: To: Ian Dubman Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I think the important thing about Iman's message was that, when doing the paradox reverse mirage to start a paradox legbeater or paradox atomsmasher it is considered a paradox TAP and deserving of the "paradox" add. Now as to what defines a reverse mirage from a tap, I defer to someone else so that I don't get it wrong. BRAD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 16:35:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA01630 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:35:59 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07763 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:04:57 -0800 Received: from fox (jlw3368@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/mailhub+tar) with ESMTP id KAA23369; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:05:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by fox (8.8.8+Sun/1.34) id KAA16870; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:05:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:05:28 -0600 (CST) From: James Lee Widman X-Sender: jlw3368@fox.ksu.ksu.edu Reply-To: James Lee Widman To: Derric Scalf cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] tendons, tendons, tendons In-Reply-To: <36CC5901.3194@utdallas.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Derric Scalf wrote: > > I have hurt a tendon in my left knee. It feels like I might have some > sort of tendonitis or something. Anyway, what is better for an older (a > month) tendon injury? Heat or cold? Any ideas on cross training > hey man, if it's tendonitis, learn to live with it. Don't want to worry you, I mean your footbag career certainly ain't over. I've had a case of it for about 2 years and it does get bothersome to say the least. keep it warm while you're kickin' and ice it when you're done. Wear a knee brace to keep it warm, it helps a lot. You can also take a piece of tape and wrap the knee about 2 inches below the knee cap. This is supposed to keep the tendon from stretching apart which causes the pain and sometimes swelling. I've used this method and it works well. Also let Advil become your friend. I've noticed some moves irritate more (symp. whirl) As for cross-training-??? I have heared accupuncture works, but only temporary. Don't let it slow you down! -james From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 22:40:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA28193 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:40:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f107.hotmail.com [209.185.131.170]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11512 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:53:13 -0800 Received: (qmail 24369 invoked by uid 0); 19 Feb 1999 20:53:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19990219205318.24368.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 134.39.132.41 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:53:18 PST X-Originating-IP: [134.39.132.41] From: "Ahren Gehrman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Crap/Hein Sys. Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:53:18 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org shredders >A >revolution for >the add system. >Ok. Enough of my blabering. Here 't is. >crappiest. crappier. crap. hein. heiner. heinest >Notice the form: No modifiers...ahhh yeah. The savior has descended >upon >us. Amen. Amen indeed. What's a paradox? If you understand the true definition of paradox, then you will understand why you can't truly define it. Thank you Matt for the inspiration. I'm back. Torch ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 23:51:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA15686 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:51:00 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f177.hotmail.com [207.82.251.63]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13420 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:58:18 -0800 Received: (qmail 19054 invoked by uid 0); 19 Feb 1999 22:58:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19990219225825.19052.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.25.108.130 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:58:24 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.25.108.130] From: "James Holt" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] help Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:58:24 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >One thing that refreshes my interest is playing with others, Im sorry to say the nearest person who even plays footbag is like 250 miles away(as far as I know) >Have you shot for double-legover yet? It was my first double- I have tryed it but with no success. latly I have been trying to improve my weak side moves also with no success. thank you I will "hang in there" James ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 23:50:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA15681 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:50:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Resent-From: reiddm@magma.ca Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13281 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:50:55 -0800 Received: from dave (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00261 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:52:46 -0500 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:52:46 -0500 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199902192252.RAA00261@homer.tomahawktech.com> From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: RE: [freestyle] Crap/Hein Sys. Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:52:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000601be5c5a$98fd4620$d505bfce@dave> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <19990219205318.24368.qmail@hotmail.com> Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > -----Original Message----- > >Ok. Enough of my blabering. Here 't is. > >crappiest. crappier. crap. hein. heiner. heinest > >Notice the form: No modifiers...ahhh yeah. The savior has descended > >upon > >us. Amen. But how will us newbies know when we have ascended from crappiest to crappier level? What happens when the top players, who are already heinerless, start hitting moves that have a mysterious added element, introduced because of the set location, that clearly raises the move to another level beyond heinest. Perhaps moves like that could be called "inexplicably more difficult than heinest". Seriously though, your p-word debate is fascinating. I think Mr.Wulff and Mr.Fogle should lay out the rules and kindly request that everyone comply. Also, though I lack experience, I-man's logic on the whole stepping vs. blurry thing makes absolute sense to me. Blurry confused the hell out of me at first, then I thought it was just clip > op-in, but finally I realized that something else was required to make it blurry. Just simplifying things will help newbies alot. There is no need for the language to become indecipherable by adding new words to mean old things. cha-ching... my two Dave "all theory, no action" Reid From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Fri Feb 19 23:51:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id XAA15698 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:51:02 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from postal.interaccess.com (postal.interaccess.com [207.208.133.2]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13497 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:05:31 -0800 Received: from [207.208.34.14] (d14.nhe2.interaccess.com [207.208.34.14]) by postal.interaccess.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA07506 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:06:02 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:17:54 -0500 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: "Enlightener (Scott Davidson)" Subject: [freestyle] Paradox Flux and Gyro Flux Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Freestylers! Someone said Red hit Gyro Flux, and I believe it. And thanks for making me see a move that I had never "seen" before, the gyro reverse mirage. I hit that component a bunch of times on both sides, i will skool that and then hopefully graduate to the gyro flux. I've been skoolin the blur to flux combo and now all of the sudden my paradox flux is not too far off. I love the way the components fit together!!! Great job Red! Also, right now, as I type, Rippin and Sherry (sp?) are getting hitched in Vegas!!! Congratulations to them, I wish I could be there! I can't wait to hear the stories. See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Feb 21 22:03:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA32155 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:03:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17479 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:49:40 -0800 Received: from smegma (user-38ld8i2.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.162.66]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA14673 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:50:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990220003139.007e8100@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: ecrvich@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:31:39 -0500 To: From: Ernest Crvich Subject: Re: [freestyle] help In-Reply-To: <199902190718.XAA02546@m9.sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:27 PM 2/18/99 -0800, Jane Jones wrote: >with that single move comes a handful of others. I got stuck on a plateau >between 3 and 4 adds. Been there! Wait. Maybe I still am. Don't tell anyone. >by skooling them a little bit for a week or two...ahhh, just like the good >'ol days when I was pulling my first atw's, butterflies and mirages. I Those were good days, weren't they? I still remember them. Even though I still have immense fun 3.5 years later, those first twos and threes were inexplicably exhilarating. As in, "look ma, no hands!" >remember when I thought an around the world was such a quick motion, and >now, doubles don't even seem to be all that fast anymore(okay, not always). Yep. Yep. Yep. >Don't be discouraged...I was stuck for over a year, but I still loved >kicking and watching other people bust fat combos around me...not to I seem to have a similar fate...I meet up with others who are on the rise, show them some new stuff, and BLAM...a month later they're way beyond me. That's what I get for discovering freestyle too late in life, I guess. Damn these youngsters. 8^) >mention, the kickin' tunes. (okay, pun intended). Sometimes I get >frustrated when I see a new kicker that's been playing for 3 months hit a 4 >add move that it took me 4 years of skooling on and off to pull. Tell me about it! Sheesh. >oh yeah, just another side thought-- sometimes I've found that I can over >skool and the best remedy for my style is to hide my bags for little bit >and play something else. when I come back to freestyle, it turns out I'm >kicking better than before I stopped. Same here; often I'm shocked to find that even after weeks of neglect, I come back [nearly] as fresh as a daisy. Oops. Something tells me that the phrase "fresh as a daisy" is no longer cool these days. Word upwards! Or something like that. >Whatever you do, just keep kicking! Unless you hurt yourself. I was somehow able to restrain myself from the style for 3 months last year when I pulled my flexor, and I attribute that restraint to being able to style today (every time I tried to just "keep kicking", I made things worse). Be careful, folks. -- Ernest "Scratch" Crvich Durham, NC, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~ecrvich Have footbag, will shred From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Feb 21 22:03:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id WAA31992 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:03:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA229 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:51:43 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Re: (Ironman)spinning paradox solution (& tap) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:51:46 -0800 Message-ID: <002001be5c95$1c3265e0$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Brad wrote... > I think the important thing about Iman's message was that, when doing >the paradox reverse mirage to start a paradox legbeater or paradox >atomsmasher it is considered a paradox TAP and deserving of the "paradox" >add. > Now as to what defines a reverse mirage from a tap, I defer to someone >else so that I don't get it wrong. Thank You Brad... That is what I'm thinking. As for the reverse mirage definition vs. tap, I tried that a couple weeks ago. Spent alot of time explaining Step vs. mirage in detail and said the same principal applies to tap vs. rev mirage. If you like I'll post it again. Lotta crap though. BUT... The thing really is this. We're all out here stinkin up the joint with our breath talkin shit. not all of it, but a significant portion and I've got halitosis as much as anyone. I've come to see freestyle as an art as much as a sport. It is more creative than it is technical. not that these 2 don't coincide necessarilly... but.. sometimes one has to experience the art to realize it. You can't explain it exactly all the time... much of the time. What is the difference between blue & red? Well... blue feels kinda cold perhaps... red kinda hot... maybe.. What is the difference between step and mirage or tap and reverse mirage? I can explain it to a certain extent... but to do it is to feeeeeel it. They definately ain't the same color.. no what I'm sayin? Might be the same chord progression but they ain't in the same key??? PAINT with your feet and a bag baby. Play music with your shoes and a ball. IRONMAN From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Mon Feb 22 19:17:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id TAA22333 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:17:41 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #33464) with SMTP id <0F7K00201K9VXQ@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:49:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:49:06 -0700 (MST) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: (Ironman)spinning paradox solution (& tap) In-reply-to: <002001be5c95$1c3265e0$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> To: Eric Wulff Cc: "'freestyle'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Eric Wulff wrote: > Brad wrote... > > I think the important thing about Iman's message was that, when doing > >the paradox reverse mirage to start a paradox legbeater or paradox > >atomsmasher it is considered a paradox TAP and deserving of the "paradox" > >add. > > Now as to what defines a reverse mirage from a tap, I defer to someone I more or less agree with this, but I have a statement and question. There seem to be two ways of starting a legbeater 1) with a lower leg, more or less true to form, reverse mirage. 2) with a tap (meaning the first dex is going over the bag rather quickly at the upper part of the leg. Or leggy and hippie as Eli might put it (I stress might lest I misquote anyone here). The former being a Peter Irish style for sure (for visual reference and not to say others don't do it this way). Now I haven't gone to the tape to check this out, but does Peter (still an example) do a paradox legbeater with a similar dex as a regular legbeater? If so, does it still get paradox in the Ironman school of thought, as it is clearly a ?Pdox? reverse mirage set and distinct from a Pdox tap????? Or am I making some category mistakes here and the Leggy way is still considered a tap? And I would like to add that I didn't include the whole message here where Eric made a very good point to "be the bag". And that doing is a more fun definition than analyzing. BRAD From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 23 02:35:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA05601 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:35:25 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA94 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:09:35 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] (Ironman)spinning paradox solution (& tap) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:09:35 -0800 Message-ID: <000701be5ed1$8fd30660$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Brad wrote... > Or am I making some category mistakes here and the Leggy way is still >considered a tap? Good observation.... I wouldn't say it's a mistake necessarilly... But I would consider them both a tap. That should answer all your questions... "in the Ironman school of thought" anyway. Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 23 02:39:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id CAA05635 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:39:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from jsisfo22.jsishipping.com ([207.33.33.89]) by jsisfomg1.jsishipping.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-14027) with SMTP id AAA248 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:11:55 -0800 From: "Eric Wulff" To: "'freestyle'" Subject: [freestyle] Vegas... A report please??? Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:11:56 -0800 Message-ID: <000801be5ed1$e3a26880$592121cf@jsisfo22.jsishipping.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Yo all you Vegas Shred Heads.... How was it? What was hit? Who... What.... When... where.... for how long.... in what shoes/scandals... anything???? gimme/us the dilly..... yo please Eric From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 23 18:48:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id SAA23749 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:48:29 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mc-qout2.whowhere.com ([209.1.236.38]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA32217 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:14:10 -0800 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by theglobe.com; Tue Feb 23 10:14:23 1999 To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:14:23 -0000 From: "Ian Dubman" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [freestyle] Vegas... A report please??? X-Sender-Ip: 128.206.120.62 Organization: E-Mail @ The Globe (http://www.globe-mail.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org -- On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:11:56 Eric Wulff wrote: >Who... What.... When... where.... for how long.... in what >shoes/scandals... anything???? What scandals?? Bill and Monica were there?!? Ian MUFF "Free web-based email available now at http://www.theglobe.com" From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Tue Feb 23 19:33:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id TAA04033 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:33:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from acsdallas.com (ppp16-13.dllstx.onramp.net [206.50.201.140]) by mailhost.onramp.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12862 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:03:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from james [144.19.62.4] by acs_dc [144.19.62.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP3.R) for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:10:28 -0600 Received: by james with Microsoft Mail id <01BE5F2C.4112BF60@james>; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:58:48 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE5F2C.4112BF60@james> From: James Roberts To: "'freestyle'" , "'Eric Wulff'" Subject: RE: [freestyle] Vegas... A report please??? Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:58:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freestyle@majordomo.footbag.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id TAA01343 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org IMAN wrote: >How was it? Awesome. A Blast. The s--t. >What was hit? What wasn't hit? Rippin' was all over paradox symposium blender. I didn't see him hit it but I'm sure he did when I wasn't around. Adrian Dick hit 4-5 consecutive atom smashers with legbeaters thrown in for kicks. Rumor has it he was close to a legbeater with a duck b/w the dexes. In my humble opinion, THE MEN were: Rippin', Adrian, "Big Add - Hollywood" Chad, Richard Abshire (sp?), Genzu, Sunil, Eric Windsor, Ryan Sanders and Dave "my names not Teva and my strings last forever" Holton. >Who... I counted 26 shredders in 6 circles at one session. Here's a few names I can recall on the fly. Rippin' Genzu Dave Holton Richard Abshire Adrian Dick (New Zealand) Sunil Jani Big Add Chad Eric Windsor Ryan Sanders Steve Goldberg Stuart Macferson (New Zealand) Canyon Hart Cameron Kennedy Jon Schneider Kyle Crawford Ariel Santesteban Ethan Klein Conner (last name?) Bob and Steve (Idaho) Itay Kahaner Mike Joust (sp?) DFC - Derric, Matt, me Sorry to those whose names I forgot. >What.... Uh...shreddin'? >When... I heard Thursday night but I hadn't made it to town yet. Friday night 11:00 - 2 ish Sat. - somewhere around 1 or 2 'til somewhere around 5 or 6. The lights of Vegas and the "thrill o' the shred" were beginning to cloud my mind by this time. Sunday - 1 - ? (I had to leave @ 2:00 to catch a ane) >where.... for how long.... In the parking garage of the Stratosphere. If you go there, be sure to ride the Big Shot. It's on top of the Stratosphere needle, over 1100 ft. high. The ride 'shoots' you straight up @ about 45 mph. in 2-3 seconds - woo-woo! >in what shoes/scandals... anything???? Lavers 'n Tevas >gimme/us the dilly..... yo The dilly is...don't miss it again. Although tournaments are a blast, it was awesome just shreddin' competition-free with a group of stylers that were ALL tearin' it up. See you in Dallas April 24-25. JR DFC From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 25 20:42:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA30671 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:42:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02579 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:28:37 -0800 Message-ID: <19990225193017.19227.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.191.36] by send103.yahoomail.com; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:30:17 PST Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:30:17 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: Re: [freestyle] tendons, tendons, tendons To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org James wrote: tendinitis- live with it. (not a quote) Say what?!! Derric has the right idea to take time off after Vegas. If it's only a month old, like D's, it should be healed rather soon. Here is my experience with it: after World's 98, I started skoolin pswhirl a lot, and due to bad form and hard landings I developed a movement-restricting lump on the outside of my knee- tendinitis. It hurt just to walk, so obviously I couldn't kick. Doing a pdox whirl motion (without the bag) was the most painful. I started by rubbing Chinese linament (zheng gu shui) over the tendon and surrounding area. It's good to cover a large area of your leg to stimulate circulation throughout. Circulation = healing. Ice = decreased circulation. For almost all injuries doctors recommend to only ice within 24 hours of the injury, so if you continue to kick with tendinitis, of course you should ice afterwards- you are just reinjuring the tendon. If you take time off to let it heal stay away from ice. 1. Stretch lightly. If you feel restricted movement in a certain direction/motion, stretch and counter stretch that motion. I emphasize *lightly*- gradually regain your flexibility and range of motion. 2. Heat heals. Hot baths and linament will help loosen the area and increase circulation. DO NOT use electric heating pads! Gentle massage on and around the pain is also beneficial, especially when combined with heat and/or stretching. 3. Take as much time as you need. Don't rush it, you'll regret it later. I took 3 weeks off right before Funtastik, and still wasn't sure if I would be able to play. The first day I did as few pdox whirls as possible (didn't even consider pswhirl a possibility). Day number two I felt great and had no problem with pswhirl, and no repercussions; it's felt great ever since. 4. Cross-training? I recommend bicycling and swimming. I hope this helps, Derric and anyone else. Get well soon. Eli (unmentioned Vegas attendee- no worries, JR) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Thu Feb 25 20:42:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id UAA30676 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:42:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send105.yahoomail.com (send105.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.128]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02720 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:37:33 -0800 Message-ID: <19990225193946.3508.rocketmail@send105.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.191.36] by send105.yahoomail.com; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:39:46 PST Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:39:46 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Tevas To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey folks, sorry I never posted the info on Teva mods. The model I bought have fatter straps which hinder toe stalls like mad. I thought Dave Holton just got used to them, but he actually kicks in the Valkyrie model, which has a thinner toe strap placed further back on the arch of the foot. Try those, forget the mods. Late, Eli _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 27 01:30:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id BAA05100 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:30:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.126]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23751 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:11:58 -0800 Received: from bluejay.creighton.edu (bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by mailjay.creighton.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA05942 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:13:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:13:10 -0600 (CST) From: Sean Wingert To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Rod Lavers Design Change In-Reply-To: <199902142330.XAA30154@eniac.yak.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello everyone! Scott Davidson told me that the Rod Laver's are (were?) being drastically redesigned and effectively impairing freestyle. Is this true? If so, does WFA have plenty of the old-style shoes in stock? Thanks, Sean From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sat Feb 27 03:10:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id DAA11051 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:10:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f192.hotmail.com [207.82.251.81]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26044 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:18:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 24759 invoked by uid 0); 27 Feb 1999 02:19:09 -0000 Message-ID: <19990227021909.24758.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.60.118.236 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:19:08 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.60.118.236] From: "Allan Haggett" To: ezshredz@yahoo.com Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] injury Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:19:08 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Eli, James and all... > Circulation = healing Well thought out answer Eli. I figured I might interject with something I think is really quite valid and shouldn't just be ignored because of lack of experience. I posted a reply to James a couple of weeks ago saying to give acupuncture a try. I would like to reiterate this and clarify that this treatment won't cure your problem but it will expediate the healing process by weeks, if not months. Circulation does equal healing and acupuncture stimulates circulation in directed patterns that a licensed and experineced practitioner can use to help the healing process speed up dramatically. A month before '98 world's I was skateboarding at a local park and did a frontside 180 out and down about three feet. I landed with all my weight on the small toe of my right foot. I can still see my big toe touching my calf about half way between my knee and ankle. The 'POP' sounded like an end to my walking around for the next six months. Nothing broken, but my ankle was the size of a soft ball.Torn ligaments in two places. I hobbled around for a week in intense pain (tylenol is no help when you can just feeeeel how big your ankle is) Finally a friend who is aprenticing as a acupunturist told me to go and see the man who was teaching him. I walked in, and watched with amazement(and skepticism) how he put five needles into my foot at various points. Then he left me for a half hour. I felt as if small doses of elctricity were pulsing through the points. He came back and took the needles out, and I started to walk around. It still hurt, but I had hobbled in, wanting another five tylenol..... I broke into a light jog on the way home. Within two weeks I was kicking again and a month and a half later it was almost as though it hadn't happened. ALMOST. Injuries like that will always take time to heal, but you don't have to wait for your body to do all the work. Get help. "Circulation=healing" listen to the man! He's right about ice too. Wrong treatment of an injury can result in longer healing time and even cause more damage. Know ya s**t! for now... allan Victoria, BC ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@eniac.yak.net Sun Feb 28 00:50:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id AAA04213 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:50:18 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle using -f Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by Market.NET (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00626 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:25:29 -0800 Message-ID: <19990227192727.5691.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.254.186.185] by send103.yahoomail.com; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:27:27 PST Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:27:27 -0800 (PST) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] on the road To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's up, fellow shredders?! In case you haven't heard, (Teva) Dave Holton and I are taking a two-month road trip beginning April 1st. From Boulder we head west into Utah, south to Arizona, and southwest to Hermosa Beach in time for So.Cal. Championships. We then have six weeks of spontaneous traveling before Western Regionals, in which time we will explore all parts of Cali., venture into Oregon and probably Washington and Brittish Colombia. After Western's we're not sure of our exact plans- maybe go through Nevada and Utah to get back to Colorado. To the point, if you are en route of our travels, let's jam! We already have many friends plotted on our map, so if you want to join in on the road trip shredding, let me know. Let's recap: Utah, Arizona, California, Oregon, Washington, B.C., Nevada, and maybe more. Give me a holler! Eli Monster Piltz ezshredz@yahoo.com 303-443-1240 p.s. the whole thing will be captured on videotape- expect a phatty video, hopefully done by World's. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com