From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jul 1 19:36:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12936 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:36:13 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f202.hotmail.com [216.32.181.202]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA30595 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:32:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 34697 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jul 1999 03:31:53 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701033153.34696.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.167.115.31 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:31:52 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.167.115.31] From: "Ryan Britt" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Dexterity notation Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:31:52 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi, I had a question about the notation used to describe moves. [dex] is used to denote circling the footbag, but how do you know WHERE to circle the bag. I've seen videos of moves, and the dexterities are always done using different sections of the circling leg. What I'm asking is: how can you tell whether to circle the bag with your foot, with the calf portion of the leg, or with the crook of the knee? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. - Ryan Britt _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jul 1 23:49:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15752 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:49:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from saba.wwa.com (saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10836 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:15:31 -0700 Received: from [209.107.90.78] (209-107-90-078.chicago.verio.net [209.107.90.78]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA09109; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:15:04 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990701033153.34696.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:19:29 -0600 To: "Ryan Britt" , freestyle@footbag.org From: "Scott Davidson" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Dexterity notation Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Ryan! At 8:31 PM -0700 6/30/99, Ryan Britt wrote: >Hi, I had a question about the notation used to describe moves. [dex] is >used to denote circling the footbag, but how do you know WHERE to circle the >bag. I've seen videos of moves, and the dexterities are always done using >different sections of the circling leg. What I'm asking is: how can you >tell whether to circle the bag with your foot, with the calf portion of the >leg, or with the crook of the knee? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. For that, you need to skip the Job's notation and go to longhand notation. My favorite is longhand, I always seem to leave my secret decoder ring at home whenever I run into jobs notation. :-) Perhaps someday, they will work that into the notation, but keep in mind that some people do mirages where they circle the bag with their ankles, others do them up over their calf. Mostly a style thing. That goes for other dex's too. Hope that helps! See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener. From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Thu Jul 1 23:59:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15806 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:59:48 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14337 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:01:29 -0700 Received: from [205.180.137.228] (dhcp-205-180-137-228 [205.180.137.228]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07466; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:02:38 -0700 To: "Ryan Britt" , freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Dexterity notation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:19 PM -0600 7/1/99, Scott Davidson wrote: >At 8:31 PM -0700 6/30/99, Ryan Britt wrote: > >Hi, I had a question about the notation used to describe moves. [dex] is >>used to denote circling the footbag, but how do you know WHERE to circle the > >bag. >For that, you need to skip the Job's notation and go to longhand notation. >My favorite is longhand, I always seem to leave my secret decoder ring at >home whenever I run into jobs notation. :-) Ryan, you can just ignore Scott. He didn't even begin to answer your question. He has this hair up his you-know-what about writing the word "dexterity" in abbreviated form "dex". It reminds him too much of that shorthand course he took that he flunked, which is why he's cleaning bathrooms and not working as a secretary as he had always dreamed. But I digress. When we say "circling" the bag, we just mean "crossing the plane of the bag's trajectory". It's hard to put into words -- you kind of have to see it. But any time your leg goes under, over, or around the bag on the way to catching or kicking it with your foot, that's a "dexterity". Look at http://www.footbag.org/movelist/ for the "moves on video" section to see some moves and then compare their notation to the way the person is hitting it so you can understand what each component of the move is. The explanations we wrote up on the move list of what the five components of difficulty are is a little weak, admittedly. It would be good to do a whole tutorial on each, but nobody ever has the time. Steve From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fri Jul 2 08:04:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA16943 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:04:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from ego.mind.net (IDENT:mail@ego.mind.net [206.99.66.9]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA18843 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:00:27 -0700 Received: from 206.151.158.6 (ip00.mind.net [206.151.158.6]) by ego.mind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA06886 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:00:24 -0700 Message-ID: <377C00D5.2E60@mind.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 23:59:28 +0000 From: Forest Schrodt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Greetings fellow stylers. I was talking on the phone this evening with the hein Boulder Colorado boyz(Elli, Red, Dave, Bryan) and apperently in their last shred session Die Hard Highlander Dave hit the first 7 add trick ever hit. They have it on video and appearently it was hit cleanly within a 20+ contact string. The move? Well I really shouldn't say, Dave wanted me to hold off, but I will anyway because it is so tight. Stepping ducking paradox torque Let me know if anyone else has hit a 7 before. I heard Kenny had come very close several times but never hit. See you all at Worlds Forest Schrodt From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jul 4 19:27:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06485 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:27:58 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web4.rocketmail.com (web4.rocketmail.com [205.180.57.78]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA05533 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:25:13 -0700 Message-ID: <19990703042409.20618.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Received: from [203.109.234.247] by web4; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 21:24:09 PDT Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:24:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Hans Freller Subject: [freestyle] whirl direction? To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Does the direction of the dex in a whirl matter, and if so, does it change the add difficulty? Hans Freller From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jul 4 19:28:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06495 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:28:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29528 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:25:05 -0700 Received: from hh1114112 ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA26502; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:25:59 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990702142613.00929940@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 14:27:28 -0700 To: Forest Schrodt , freestyle@footbag.org From: Matt Avery Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! In-Reply-To: <377C00D5.2E60@mind.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sup guys, Im pretty sure Kenny did bust out a 7 add in the Raw Shred video, but I think after all the debating, the move is now only 6 add. Still, he did hit it when it was considered 7. Matt At 11:59 PM 7/1/99 +0000, Forest Schrodt wrote: >Greetings fellow stylers. I was talking on the phone this evening with >the hein Boulder Colorado boyz(Elli, Red, Dave, Bryan) and apperently in >their last shred session Die Hard Highlander Dave hit the first 7 add >trick ever hit. They have it on video and appearently it was hit >cleanly within a 20+ contact string. The move? Well I really shouldn't >say, Dave wanted me to hold off, but I will anyway because it is so >tight. Stepping ducking paradox torque > Let me know if anyone else has hit a 7 before. I heard Kenny had come >very close several times but never hit. > See you all at Worlds > Forest Schrodt From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jul 4 19:28:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06505 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:28:26 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Damon Mathews Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02691 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:32:30 -0700 Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id gNQHa22295 (14431); Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <950031d0.24aeb3c7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:31:03 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! To: fastfoot@mind.net, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Let me know if anyone else has hit a 7 before. I heard Kenny had come >very close several times but never hit. See you all at Worlds Forest Schrodt I have a 7 add. I didn't hit in in a 20+ combo string, but I have hit it several times in combination. Its a blurry symposium reverse whirling x-body rake. The witch doctor. notation: clip>op in[dex]> no plant while, wait, op reverse whirl motion(not butterfly)[sym][pdx][dex]> op x-body rake[bod][xbd][del]. Demon Damon From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jul 4 19:28:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06515 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:28:30 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from ra.nilenet.com (root@ra.nilenet.com [204.227.31.1]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21457 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:56:01 -0700 Received: from unknown (slip9.den.nilenet.net [206.247.98.9]) by ra.nilenet.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id VAA22918; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 21:52:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19990621045522.55714.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Conversation <19990621045522.55714.qmail@hotmail.com> with last message <19990621045522.55714.qmail@hotmail.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Lynton Stephens" , freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Daryl Genz" Subject: Re: [freestyle] 2 bag juggling & smear with a dive Date: Sat, 03 Jul 99 21:52:08 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by eniac.yak.net id EAA05297 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Lynton, Two bag juggling is EASY (after you've dropped it several hunderd times). It's just toe stalls. The only trick is that you only watch the bag that's in the air, never your catch foot. Try three bags for fun sometime... Genzu ---------- > Hi Stylers- > I've seen a couple of people juggle 2 bags, but I've never heard any > explaination of how it done. Does any body have any hints on learning > this?? From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jul 4 20:16:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA06697 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:16:58 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA31310 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:06:25 -0700 Received: from dave (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00307 for ; Sun, 04 Jul 1999 15:08:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <001a01bec650$8614dc70$0101010a@dave> From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:07:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org -----Original Message----- >I have a 7 add. I didn't hit in in a 20+ combo string, but I have hit it >several times in combination. > >Its a blurry symposium reverse whirling x-body rake. The witch doctor. > >notation: > clip>op in[dex]> no plant while, wait, op reverse >whirl motion(not butterfly)[sym][pdx][dex]> op x-body rake[bod][xbd][del]. > >Demon >Damon That sounds like an awesome move, but isn't a x-body rake a questionable 3 adds? It just doesn't seem to me that a rake can really be x-body. If it can be, then I figure that anyone can now replace their clippers with xbody rakes and increase their add ratio by 1. Can someone clarify this? Not to take anything away from your move... I can only dream of getting to that level. Dave From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jul 4 20:20:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA06712 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:20:29 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web135.yahoomail.com (web135.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.20]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA31473 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:18:04 -0700 Message-ID: <19990704191803.16701.rocketmail@web135.yahoomail.com> Received: from [63.14.57.199] by web135.yahoomail.com; Sun, 04 Jul 1999 12:18:03 PDT Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Sultans of Shred -- a freestyle odyssey To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, Stylers Boulder Blades Productions has just completed the newest shred video in time for world's. Get ready for a 110 minute video of only the best. Sultans of Shred features many of today's hottest freestylers, including Rippin' Rick Reese, Ryan Mulroney, Brian McKenzie, Chad Devlahovic, Eric Wulff, Dave Holton, Daryl Genz, Sunil Jani, Eli Piltz, Red Husted, Eric Windsor, Tu Vu, Kenny Shults, Jonathan Schneider, Lon Smith, Forest Schrodt, Richie Abshire, Adrian Verhoef, Toby Robinson, Ethan Klein, Ryan Cummings, Derric Scalf, and the one and only Steve Goldberg. Like I said, only the best strings made the cut. Scenes in this film are taken from 1999 at Western Regionals, So. Cal. Championships, Vegas Jam, and private skooling in California, Colorado, and Oregon; all part of an epic road trip. The release party will be in Chicago, so get your copy there. Can't wait to see all you! To all our friends along the way, thanks for helping make it all possible. Eli Piltz From owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sun Jul 4 20:40:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by eniac.yak.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA06787 for FBfreestyle-outgoing@eniac.yak.net; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:40:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: eniac.yak.net: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Damon Mathews Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA31789 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:38:59 -0700 Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id yTMNa03723 (3924); Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <812afd19.24b111d4@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:36:52 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! To: reiddm@magma.ca, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >That sounds like an awesome move, but isn't a x-body rake a questionable 3 >adds? It just doesn't seem to me that a rake can really be x-body. If it >can be, then I figure that anyone can now replace their clippers with xbody >rakes and increase their add ratio by 1. > >Can someone clarify this? > >Not to take anything away from your move... I can only dream of getting to >that level. > >Dave Actually I agree with you. I too believe that X-bdy rake is questionable 3 add. I like pointing out flaws in the add system. This trick actually contains two questionable adds according to the current add system. The first as you so cleverly pointed out is the x-body rake. The second is whether or not a reverse whirl can be paradox. This question has been overlooked. I ask Scott Davidson about it once at a tourney in DC. I asked him if he had tried blurry reverse whirl instead of a blurry whirl to save his knees. He replied, " I don't do any easy 5 adds. " Wow, powerful words from a World Champion. So I explored all the easiest concepts and came up with a number of questionable high add tricks. Easy or not the fact remains that they are still interesting, exciting, and they add to the sport. Pushing the envelope until it tears apart and has to be replaced with a box. Don't worry, you haven't taken anything away from this trick that wasn't already stipped away perform the move surfaced. Demon Damon From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 6 21:23:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00502 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:23:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199907070423.VAA00502@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:37:37 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] E-mail list temporarily down Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The freestyle list has been down for a day, but never fear, no mail was lost. More later. Expect to start seeing the postings for the last day sometime later tonight. Things are working again but I'm out of time to go back and resend all the previous day's mail. Thanks. Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:08:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA01328 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:08:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071508.IAA01328@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f X-Originating-IP: [165.247.43.195] From: KeN Somolinos To: Damonmath@aol.com, reiddm@magma.ca, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:44:37 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all. Argh. Just when I'm getting excited about Worlds next week, all this moronic add business pops up. OK, first of all, adds have nothing to do with difficulty. Nothing. Two unrelated concepts. Adds are components of a move, and while it is sometimes the case that a move with more add components is more difficult than one with fewer, counting adds is by no means an intelligent way of calculating move difficulty. Damon said: I like pointing out flaws in the add system. This trick actually >contains two questionable adds according to the current add system. The >first as you so cleverly pointed out is the x-body rake. The second is >whether or not a reverse whirl can be paradox. Alright, the move in question sounds difficult, but as of right now there is no paradox add involved, since reverse whirl cannot be considered paradox in the current add system. So the move technically has 6 add components. Damon also recounted this story: I ask Scott Davidson about it once at a tourney in DC. I asked >him if he had tried blurry reverse whirl instead of a blurry whirl to save >his knees. He replied, " I don't do any easy 5 adds. " Wow, powerful words >from a World Champion. This obsession with adds goes counter to the creative spirit of freestyle. This last weekend in Montreal, I saw Marc Conte busting out Bubba Flux, which is a 4 add move, but is bounds harder than, say, paradox da da curve, which is now considered a 5 add move (but technically should be 6 due to the symposium butterfly at the end). Which brings up another flaw with people's interpretation of the add system. Why do people arbitrarily ignore adds, just because they don't "feel" difficult. According to the definition of symposium, a da da curve is 5 adds. Toe set fog is 4 adds. Again, adds don't equal difficulty. Then Damon said: Easy or not the fact remains >that they are still interesting, exciting, and they add to the sport. >Pushing the envelope until it tears apart and has to be replaced with a box. Right on. If everyone does the same exact moves and combos, the sport will never grow in any interesting manner. Ken "CF" Somolinos nyfd From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:09:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA01337 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:09:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071509.IAA01337@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:00:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ----- Original Message ----- > Argh. Just when I'm getting excited about Worlds next week, all this > moronic add business pops up. OK, first of all, adds have nothing to do > with difficulty. Nothing. Two unrelated concepts. Adds are components of > a move, and while it is sometimes the case that a move with more add > components is more difficult than one with fewer, counting adds is by no > means an intelligent way of calculating move difficulty. Sorry, I knew I was stirring the pot, but the list has been too boring lately! :) But seriously, people keep saying that adds don't equal difficulty and then they turn around and say "The really good players are all going tripless". Or "You can't join this circle unless you go guiltless". Even as a newbie, I understand that adds do not equal difficulty, but I find it mad that given that fact, kickers are categorized according to what number of adds they can hit. I do form my own opinion of which kickers are best, and I have the advantage often times of not even knowing how many adds the moves are. I am knowledgable enough to appreciate it when people use both sides equally and vary their moves alot, so the adds count doesn't blind me. So I say that if people want to get off of the add fixation that they should set different plateaus of skill. How about this: 1. do an equal number of dexes with each leg in all strings 2. do an equal number of double dexes with each leg in all strings 3. do an equal number of left and right spins in all strings 4. don't repeat any move on the same side in any string I know you guys do aspire to goals like these, but if you want newbies to stop trying to hit 5 add moves, then you should stop proclaiming guiltless and tripless as skill levels. Stir stir stir, Dave From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:45:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02601 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:45:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071545.IAA02601@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f X-Originating-IP: [165.247.43.195] From: KeN Somolinos To: Damonmath@aol.com, reiddm@magma.ca, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:44:37 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all. Argh. Just when I'm getting excited about Worlds next week, all this moronic add business pops up. OK, first of all, adds have nothing to do with difficulty. Nothing. Two unrelated concepts. Adds are components of a move, and while it is sometimes the case that a move with more add components is more difficult than one with fewer, counting adds is by no means an intelligent way of calculating move difficulty. Damon said: I like pointing out flaws in the add system. This trick actually >contains two questionable adds according to the current add system. The >first as you so cleverly pointed out is the x-body rake. The second is >whether or not a reverse whirl can be paradox. Alright, the move in question sounds difficult, but as of right now there is no paradox add involved, since reverse whirl cannot be considered paradox in the current add system. So the move technically has 6 add components. Damon also recounted this story: I ask Scott Davidson about it once at a tourney in DC. I asked >him if he had tried blurry reverse whirl instead of a blurry whirl to save >his knees. He replied, " I don't do any easy 5 adds. " Wow, powerful words >from a World Champion. This obsession with adds goes counter to the creative spirit of freestyle. This last weekend in Montreal, I saw Marc Conte busting out Bubba Flux, which is a 4 add move, but is bounds harder than, say, paradox da da curve, which is now considered a 5 add move (but technically should be 6 due to the symposium butterfly at the end). Which brings up another flaw with people's interpretation of the add system. Why do people arbitrarily ignore adds, just because they don't "feel" difficult. According to the definition of symposium, a da da curve is 5 adds. Toe set fog is 4 adds. Again, adds don't equal difficulty. Then Damon said: Easy or not the fact remains >that they are still interesting, exciting, and they add to the sport. >Pushing the envelope until it tears apart and has to be replaced with a box. Right on. If everyone does the same exact moves and combos, the sport will never grow in any interesting manner. Ken "CF" Somolinos nyfd From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:45:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02605 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:45:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071545.IAA02605@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:00:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ----- Original Message ----- > Argh. Just when I'm getting excited about Worlds next week, all this > moronic add business pops up. OK, first of all, adds have nothing to do > with difficulty. Nothing. Two unrelated concepts. Adds are components of > a move, and while it is sometimes the case that a move with more add > components is more difficult than one with fewer, counting adds is by no > means an intelligent way of calculating move difficulty. Sorry, I knew I was stirring the pot, but the list has been too boring lately! :) But seriously, people keep saying that adds don't equal difficulty and then they turn around and say "The really good players are all going tripless". Or "You can't join this circle unless you go guiltless". Even as a newbie, I understand that adds do not equal difficulty, but I find it mad that given that fact, kickers are categorized according to what number of adds they can hit. I do form my own opinion of which kickers are best, and I have the advantage often times of not even knowing how many adds the moves are. I am knowledgable enough to appreciate it when people use both sides equally and vary their moves alot, so the adds count doesn't blind me. So I say that if people want to get off of the add fixation that they should set different plateaus of skill. How about this: 1. do an equal number of dexes with each leg in all strings 2. do an equal number of double dexes with each leg in all strings 3. do an equal number of left and right spins in all strings 4. don't repeat any move on the same side in any string I know you guys do aspire to goals like these, but if you want newbies to stop trying to hit 5 add moves, then you should stop proclaiming guiltless and tripless as skill levels. Stir stir stir, Dave From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:52:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02635 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:52:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071552.IAA02635@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:25:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeremiah J. Riely" X-Sender: jriely@coins0.coin.missouri.edu To: Hans Freller cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] whirl direction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Does the direction of the dex in a whirl matter, and > if so, does it change the add difficulty? Yes. A regular whirl goes in-out, or front to over the top. > > Hans Freller > From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:56:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02649 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:56:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071556.IAA02649@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:59:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeremiah J. Riely" X-Sender: jriely@coins0.coin.missouri.edu To: Dave Reid cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > That sounds like an awesome move, but isn't a x-body rake a questionable 3 > adds? It just doesn't seem to me that a rake can really be x-body. If it > can be, then I figure that anyone can now replace their clippers with xbody > rakes and increase their add ratio by 1. > > Can someone clarify this? In a cross body rake the bag starts out on one side of your body and then a contact is made behind you that carries the bag to the other side of your body. This add which in my opion isn't really cross body is given a cross body add for lack of a better add catagory. It is almost a body add because it is similar to a spin, like in an osis. In any case I think it is definatly a 3 add move. I think that doing a cross body rake instead of a clipper at the end of a move is defently adds another component. In some cases it might be easier to do a rake instaed of a clipper (I think it is harder in most cases, for me anyway) but adds rate the number of components in a trick, not necessarily the difficulty. I think the paradox add in the syposium rev. whirl is questionable. The move sounds badass though, espesialy if it is all clean. That is crazy. On the subject of 7 add moves, someone on this list (I don't remember who it was but he was from Canada I think) claimed to have hit a 8 add move. The 8 add move was a ducking butterfly symposium paradox twirl, or clip > duck [bod] > op out [dex] > (no plant while) op rev. swirl [dex][bod][bod] > op osis [bod][xby][del]. This move would be 8 adds as long as the twirl got the paradox add. I assumed he could hit it without the duck as well, which would make it 7 add. I think it would be very difficult to hit this move cleanly. You would have to jump very high in order to make the twirl clean. Sorry for the length of this message but I had a lot to talk about. Later From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:57:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02660 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:57:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071557.IAA02660@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:28:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeremiah J. Riely" X-Sender: jriely@coins0.coin.missouri.edu To: Matt Avery cc: Forest Schrodt , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Im pretty sure Kenny did bust out a 7 add in the Raw Shred video, but I > think after all the debating, the move is now only 6 add. Still, he did hit > it when it was considered 7. Kenny Shultz did not do a 7 add move or any move that could even be questionably 7 adds on the Raw Shred video. He did do a blurry whirling-swirl, but that is clearly 6 adds. Tuan Vu does a pogo paradox torque, which was once considered 7 adds but I think that poeple don't count the symposium add in the pogo anymore. Later From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:57:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02665 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:57:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071557.IAA02665@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 22:52:47 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] whirl direction? Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hans Freller wrote: > > Does the direction of the dex in a whirl matter, Yes. A whirl is an IN dexterity (mirage direction). If you go the other way (OUT or butterfly direction) it is called a reverse whirl. All whirl/rev whirl dexterities are done with the lower leg. Your knee moves slightly... this is in sharp contrast to a mirage or butterfly where the knee must move and the upper leg does the dex. > if so, does it change the add difficulty? Adds, no. Difficulty... maybe. A whirl and reverse whirl are about the same difficulty - to me at least. But, when you start doing it paradox, symposium, blurry, etc, I would say that the rev whirl is easier. As for safety, stick with rev whirls and your knees will thank you. Remember, ADDS are only a rough estimate of difficulty. Do what you like to do. If it is new to the people watching, they will probably like to see it. Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:57:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02675 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:57:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071557.IAA02675@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 23:02:09 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] xbody pendulums Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jamie coolcordner wrote: > > Hey whats up? Getting ready for worlds, and you? > I asked for this subscription but I don't use the same terms as you guys. > could you send me a list or something and I'm sure I'll catch on to the new > lingo quickly. Everyone on this list that is confused by the move naming or Job's notation should go to http://footbag.org/movelist/ and read about ADDS (the best method of determining difficulty), move components, Job's notation (the absolute BEST thing to happen to written freestyle), and the moves list. You will get ideas you have never had. You will think most of it is impossible, but I promise you that those moves have been hit by someone - except for the Nemisis. > I'm also working on a new trick. In my terms its a Gesture stall suranrap. > In mutual terms it when you stall the hack on the inside of your right foot > behind and to the left of your left leg(which is supporting you)then circle > the hack with you foot and catch it still in a stall behind and to the left > of your left leg. That cross-body (x-bdy) inside delay is called a clipper. Which leg does the dexterity? That is the beauty of Job's notation... there is no confusion about which leg does the dex no matter how complex the move gets. If you are setting, cirling and catching all with the same foot and all in the x-body position, that is a swirl. If you are setting, circling with the other leg, then catching back on the original setting foot, that is either a whirl or a reverse whirl depending on the direction of the dexterity. Read up on the moves list under 3-add moves and you should find this Gesture (jester?) suranrap of yours. I'll see you in Chicago. -Derric DFC From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 08:58:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02690 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:58:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Windsen Pan Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03287 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:58:32 -0700 Received: from PHoEtOiD34@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id zYZDa03295 (14428) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:57:33 EDT Subject: [freestyle] SA freestylers To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Is there anyone on this list that is in San Antonio, Tx and can show me some moves sometime? I'm only 14 and have been freestyling for only 3 months and need help on my 3-4 add moves...thanks in advance Windsen Pan (Mobius) From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 09:59:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA04152 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:59:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199907071659.JAA04152@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 06:15:13 -0700 From: "Ian Dubman" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! X-Sender-Ip: 128.206.120.62 Organization: E-Mail @ theglobe.com (http://www.globe-mail.com:80) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Damon Mathews wrote: I ask Scott Davidson about it once at a tourney in DC. I asked >him if he had tried blurry reverse whirl instead of a blurry whirl to save >his knees. He replied, " I don't do any easy 5 adds. " Wow, powerful words >from a World Champion. Hehe... What would be an easy 5-add move?? I know of a couple that might be a bit easier than others(hehe, one of which I have seen Scott hit in person), but none, I think, are truly easy in the sense that a person attempting guiltlessness would be ashamed of... My 'pinion, Ian D. MUFF From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 17:30:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04701 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:30:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f51.hotmail.com [207.82.250.62]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA16621 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:49:01 -0700 Received: (qmail 76034 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jul 1999 13:48:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19990707134842.76033.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.201.48 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Jul 1999 06:48:41 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.201.48] From: KeN Somolinos To: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu, mavery@direcpc.com Cc: fastfoot@mind.net, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 06:48:41 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi all. Jeremiah riely wrote: >Tuan Vu does a pogo paradox torque, which was once considered 7 adds but I >think that poeple don't count the symposium add in the pogo anymore. Read the definition of symposium, and then tell me that a pogo set does not contain a symposium add. I find pogo paradox mirage to be as easy as blur, and when I really want height on a set sometimes I will pogo instead of blurry because I find it easier to get more power out of it. But none of this changes the fact that in a pogo set, a grounded foot performs a dexterity while the other foot is in the air, only to be immediately planted again. Are pogo sets harder than blurry sets? The answer to this question doesn't really matter, considering how adds don't have anything to do with difficulty. WHat bothers me is people arbitratily discounting and ignoring adds to adjust a move's difficulty. Pogo paradox mirage is a 5 add move. Even though I find it a lot easier than toe set blur, 3 adds in the current system, I am not going to ignore an add to adjust a move's add count to equal its difficulty. Ken CF Somolinos nyfd _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 17:30:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04706 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:30:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Owen Parrish Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA15202 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:33:05 -0700 Received: from SuperOwen@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id zQWLa07548 (8021) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <53945cbb.24b494b5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:32:05 EDT Subject: [freestyle] Ride to Worlds To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Is there anyone out there going to Worlds that is road tripping and going through or near Pittsburgh, PA? I really need a ride. I won't take up much room I promise. Thanks. Owen From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 17:30:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04711 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:30:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19363 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:31:24 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990707163137.KCPA5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:31:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3783824A.D6611052@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 11:37:30 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KeN Somolinos CC: Damonmath@aol.com, reiddm@magma.ca, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! References: <199907071545.IAA02601@email.footbag.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org KeN Somolinos wrote: > > Hi all. > Argh. Just when I'm getting excited about Worlds next week, all this moronic add business pops up. OK, first of all, adds have nothing to do with difficulty. Nothing. Two unrelated concepts. Adds are components of a move, and while it is sometimes the case that a move with more add components is more difficult than one with fewer, counting adds is by no means an intelligent way of calculating move difficulty. > Hey now... easy on the ADD system. Right now, it is the best thing that we've got to determine difficulty. Granted, there are problems with it, but in general, more dexes, more spins, more jumps get more adds. I know that there is a serious problem when it comes to multiple front side dexes ending on toe, but until someone comes up with something better, let's stick to ADDs. > Damon also recounted this story: > I ask Scott Davidson about it once at a tourney in DC. I asked > >him if he had tried blurry reverse whirl instead of a blurry whirl to save > >his knees. He replied, " I don't do any easy 5 adds. " Wow, powerful words > >from a World Champion. And Ken said: > This obsession with adds goes counter to the creative spirit of freestyle. Preach on! Before eliminating the so called "easy fives" people have to get past the easy fours (ripwalk, stepping butterfly, torque, etc) Why worry so much about how many adds you get when a move looks good? > This last weekend in Montreal, I saw Marc Conte busting out Bubba Flux, which is a 4 add move, but is bounds > harder than, say, paradox da da curve, which is now considered a 5 add move (but technically should be 6 due > to the symposium butterfly at the end). Which brings up another flaw with people's interpretation of the add > system. Why do people arbitrarily ignore adds, just because they don't "feel" difficult. According to the > definition of symposium, a da da curve is 5 adds. Toe set fog is 4 adds. Again, adds don't equal difficulty. Bubba Flux. Wow. I've seen JR of Dallas get sooo close on this move, but never quite hit it. I agree that you have just pointed out some obvious flaws with the one and only system we have of determining difficulty. We need a new system. Anyone? But, then again, adds matter only two times a year. At worlds, and at Western. These are the only two tournaments that count adds. So, we need a new system for determining a move's difficulty so that we can use it twice a year. Perhaps that is why no one has put enough time into finding a better system. > Then Damon said: > Easy or not the fact remains > >that they are still interesting, exciting, and they add to the sport. > >Pushing the envelope until it tears apart and has to be replaced with a box. > Right on. If everyone does the same exact moves and combos, the sport will never grow in any interesting manner. > Ken "CF" Somolinos This is it. Freestyle is FREEstyle. Everyone should do what feels natural to them. Who cares about adds? They only count in competition. But... what about guiltless play? Perhaps guiltless should mean what it says... without guilt. If you are in a cirlce of people playing tripless, would you feel guilty for throwing in an atom smasher? You shouldn't. How about if people are in a guiltless circle and someone throws in a mirage? Well, maybe that should cause the person to feel guilty and pass it on. Guiltless is for all levels of play - not just threes or better. I like Jon Schnieder's style of play and he does a lot of 2 and 3 add moves. But, I dare you to tell him that he's guilting. If someone does a move that I can't hit, I'm glad to see it - no matter the ADD count. Like I said before - adds only count twice a year. I'll see everyone in Chicago when I get there on Wed. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 19:53:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04994 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:53:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22090 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:41:29 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990707184142.LJNX5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:41:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3783A0CA.95AE53ED@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 13:47:38 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KeN Somolinos CC: jriely@mail.coin.missouri.edu, mavery@direcpc.com, fastfoot@mind.net, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! References: <19990707134842.76033.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org KeN Somolinos wrote: > > Read the definition of symposium, and then tell me that a pogo set does not > contain a symposium add. What do you think about taking the symposium add away from sets? Personally, I don't think that any set can have a symposium component because every set requires a jump. Just because the jump is done a little differently in pogo as opposed to blurry (or stepping), I don't think there is any added difficulty - do a pogo same side butterfly if you don't believe me. Now, if a move is done symposium while the bag is on the way down, that DOES deserve an extra add of difficulty. All of this fits in to my theory of freestyle. The bag goes up (during a set) and then comes down (during the move). If pogo is considered as a set, then it should not get symposium. What is next? Saying that a shooting set is worth 4 adds (2 dexes, a pdx and a symp)? That would be silly, but by the current system it is technically correct. Let's modify the symposium definition to exclude all sets. Comments? -Derric DFC From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 20:55:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA05076 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:55:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23023 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:22:23 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA16003 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:22:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Message-Id: <000001177423014220185@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 14:23:05 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Wed, Jul 7, 1999, 1:47:38 PM US CST Derric Scalf wrote: >but by the current system it is technically correct. Let's modify the >symposium definition to exclude all sets. Comments? That sounds like the simplest and most straightforward explanation / determination for this 'problem' that I've heard. The more roundabout explanation that has come up before is the 'maintaining the symposiumness' of the move idea. But it is more complex and lacking compared to a simple 'symposiums don't exist in sets' idea. ______________________________________ Derrick From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 7 21:55:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05162 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:55:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web1004.mail.yahoo.com (web1004.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.94]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24151 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:37:47 -0700 Message-ID: <19990707203759.11859.rocketmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [130.212.201.169] by web1004.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 07 Jul 1999 13:37:59 PDT Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:37:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Ahren Gehrman Subject: [freestyle] Freestyle. Duh! To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's the dilly fellow freestylers? I haven't written in for a while, but I've been listening. Anyway, since I'm not able to make it to worlds this year :( I thought I'd say hi and add my two cents worth to the list. First of all, after recovering from a minor injury, I'm happy to say that I've been shredding a lot lately. I've been kicking with the Ironman, Disco Ninja, Regulator, Ethan Klein, Tu Huge (my new roommate), and Sunil Jani (expect him to be a shoe in for BAP this year), here in my new home of SanFrancisco. Everybody is kicking great. I must say that the Bay Area has the best talent on earth (no offense to Colorado, you guys are awesome). My repetoire is currently under reconstruction (I've been doing the same combos for two years) so hopefully the next time I kick with you guys I'll have some new moves to show off. At any rate, the real reason I wrote in was two give my opinion two the current discussion of guiltless, tripless, blah blah blah. In case you guys forgot about my tantrums about triplessness last year, I'll remind you. Yes, last year I said a bunch of crap about everybody going tripless, yatta yatta yatta. Well, after a years worth of evaluating the subject, my tune has changed. Kind of. Really what I was saying last year was that I thought that eventually tripless would become the standard, and to be in the top circles you would have to be tripless. I really didn't say I agreed with it. Mabey that's how it sounded but that's not what I was saying. I was leaning towards that side of the story but not completely. Well, after listening to all this crap about adds this, and adds that, I got sick of talk about adds and started to ignore them. I still believe in pushing your style to be bigger and better and faster and cooler, but adds just don't mean shit. Freestyle is an expression of your creativity, that shouldn't be hindered by your ability to count to ten. I learned how to do that in pre-school. If a move or a combo is cool then fucking do it. Ignore all this talk about pogo sets being one or two adds and yeah yeah yeah. It doesn't matter. However, don't forget about getting rid of your bail moves and easier tricks. If they are too easy then they aren't fun anymore. That's how I feel personally at least. Well, I'm done ranting for now. If I don't post again before worlds then good luck to everybody. Have fun. Torch _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 02:00:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05324 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:00:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Damon Mathews Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA28469 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:08:59 -0700 Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 8KGBa03246 (90); Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:06:34 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! To: derric@dallasfootbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 7/7/99 2:15:55 PM, derric@dallasfootbag.org writes: <> Ouch! Ever try symposium legbeater where the atomic dexterity is the symposium? Most definitely harder than a regular legbeater. Or symposium whirling swirl? And also, not to burst anyone's bubble about the shooting set, but if performed correctly(and I have not seen one on video or in person performed correctly) the bag travels straight up and can be set head high! It takes a pogo type dex in order to bring both legs over quickly enough to pass over as the bag travels up. The set alone is harder than a double legover or an atomsmasher. The timing is so much faster because both dexterites are performed on the way up while the first dexterity must be pogo(or fast no plant). It may be symposium(if performed correctly). I've performed tricks like pogo symposium stepping mirage, where both dexterities are performed symposium. But the trick can not be performed slurry. Just some thoughts, I can see the argument from both sides. I think with regards to pogo sets or any symposium type set, the question should not be to exclude them, we should never exclude any aspect of the art of FREEstyle. Instead look at it as another aspect of the sport to explore. Demon Damon From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 02:30:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05471 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:30:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Ezra Kim Received: (from ezra_kim@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EEYHAL9Z; Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:37:49 EDT To: freestyle@footbag.org Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:40:03 -0700 Subject: [freestyle] guiltless, tripless, etc. Message-ID: <19990709.184004.4638.0.ezra_kim@juno.com> References: <199907072329.QAA04462@email.footbag.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,8-12 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hi, - i've heard the terms guiltless and tripless used a lot. although i know they are certain types of combos, can someone tell me what the specifics are in order to have a guiltless or tripless combo? and if possible why they are named as such? - one last thing, are there other types of combos like guiltless and tripless? - thanks, - Ezra From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 03:17:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA05764 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:17:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29896 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:22:41 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990708022252.PWTZ5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:22:52 -0700 Message-ID: <37840CE5.B2E047EC@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:28:53 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ezra Kim CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] guiltless, tripless, etc. References: <199907072329.QAA04462@email.footbag.org> <19990709.184004.4638.0.ezra_kim@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ezra Kim wrote: > i've heard the terms guiltless and tripless used a lot. although i know > they are certain types of combos, can someone tell me what the specifics > are in order to have a guiltless or tripless combo? These terms don't apply to combos so much as they apply to a level of play. Every move has an add count. If all of your moves are three adds or more, that is called guiltless. If all of your moves are 4 adds or more, that is tripless. You could look at it like this: 2 add moves are guilt - so guiltless is without guilt, or without two add moves. 3 add moves are trip - so tripless is without trip, or without three add moves. I think this all started back in the day when people just started linking the harder moves. Two add moves are usually easier than threes, so they called it guilting when you did a two. I like to think of 'guiltless' as playing on a level where you don't feel guilty about continuing your string. Then, tripless came along to mean no threes. But, some threes are harder than some fours. So, if you really just go tripless, you miss out on some variety of the harder unique three add moves. I think that the standard at this year's worlds will be mostly tripless with a few of the harder or nicer looking threes thrown in. Also, you can play tiltless. This means no one add moves. This is a great place to start. I wouldn't reccommend trying to go guiltless until you can reliably hit 20+ contact tiltless strings. As Lon said a while back - skool those 2s. Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 03:18:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA05774 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:18:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Bryan Fournier Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA30047; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:30:13 -0700 Received: from ShReDStEiN@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id yWIGa11809 (535); Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2c867210.24b5667f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:27:11 EDT Subject: Re: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! To: reiddm@magma.ca, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 7/6/99 11:59:03 PM, reiddm@magma.ca wrote: <> then it wouldn't be freestyle... ~Bryan F. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 04:05:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA06109 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 04:05:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f140.hotmail.com [209.185.131.203]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA30692 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:16:55 -0700 Received: (qmail 28917 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jul 1999 03:16:41 -0000 Message-ID: <19990708031641.28916.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 203.87.24.171 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Jul 1999 20:16:40 PDT X-Originating-IP: [203.87.24.171] From: Lynton Stephens To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Difficulty & adds. Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 20:16:40 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi freestylers- Derric wrote: >Let's modify the symposium definition to exclude all sets. Comments? I think there's going to be an exception to almost any rule. Try hitting frontside symp toe blur. A typical 3 add move??? The quest for a grand unifying freestyle difficulty rating system is like the search for cold fusion. It aint gonna happen. By all means look for improvements on the current system, but IF it is accuracy of difficulty ratings that you want then I think that you have to have a ROTE system. The BAP rate all moves on a scale from 0 to 10. How else are you gonna cover all your bases, and counter EVERY exception to EVERY rule. e.g. * Stomping toe blizzard & diving reverse mirage is harder than osis & butterfly. * Fairy diving mirage, gyro eggbeater & leaning jowler are harder than ripwalk, blur & pdox whirl. Everyone knows that, why try to elaborately quantify it with some highly esoteric system. As the Torch said so well: >I still believe in pushing your style to be bigger and better and faster >and cooler, but adds just don't mean shit. I think we can agree on something though: Dave hit blurry diving torque!! You are a CHAMPION!! Good luck at the worlds! I'll wait impatiently for the videos. Keep shredding. Lynton - Melbourne Footbag Club (MFC) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 17:51:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07143 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:51:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Ezra Kim Received: (from ezra_kim@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EEZX4WA3; Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:16:05 EDT To: freestyle@email.footbag.org Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:18:20 -0700 Subject: [freestyle] some other questions Message-ID: <19990710.081820.4390.0.ezra_kim@juno.com> References: <199907072329.QAA04462@email.footbag.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,9-19 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hi again. - i have some more questions.... - although there probably is a glaring difference that i don't see: what is the difference between a fairy dex and an atomic set? - what is the whole BAP i know its the Big Add Posse. but is it a club? or something like that? because all i know is that the world's best are in BAP.... - what is inspinning? - lastly.. what is the stepping element? like in a stepping butterfly, etc... thanks... - - --Ezra From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 17:51:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07148 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:51:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10223 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:03:04 -0700 Received: from pc0966.software.mitel.com (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00208 for ; Thu, 08 Jul 1999 12:05:02 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <001701bec95b$6972f120$c136c786@software.mitel.com> From: "Dave Reid" To: References: <2c867210.24b5667f@aol.com> Subject: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:03:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org ----- Original Message ----- > < set different plateaus of skill. How about this: > 1. do an equal number of dexes with each leg in all strings > 2. do an equal number of double dexes with each leg in all strings > 3. do an equal number of left and right spins in all strings > 4. don't repeat any move on the same side in any string > >> > > then it wouldn't be freestyle... > > ~Bryan F. Then from this logic, it follows that anyone who limits the moves they do by staying guiltless or tripless is not doing FREEstyle. And I AGREE with this. That said, there continues to be a need to define levels of technical skill in order to push players to higher levels. ADDS is clearly not the way to define difficulty, especially in strings of moves, so a new way of doing it needs to be established. Let me give an example of what is happening to new players who want to be good at freestyle. Here are some fictitious, but not unrealistic based on postings to this group, stages of advancement for a new player: 1. learned toe stall and legover with both feet, ATW on one side, mirage on the other side 2. learned clipper on one side, can't seem to get clipper or ATW on the other leg, but who cares - now tiltless 3. just need butterfly or double ATW (or both) to be guiltless, almost have double ATW on the ATW side and butterfly on the clipper side 4. learned butterfly and double ATW, now I am guiltless and can kick with anyone - can occasionally hit clippers on my weak side 5. now learning 4 add moves, pixie butterfly looks like a good place to start... Somewhere around this stage, the player posts to this newsgroup, saying that he has been kicking for 3 months and he needs some help with a 4 or 5 add move. He then gets ripped up by the members of this newsgroup, telling him that he is going about things the wrong way. I could obviously go on forever about this. :) Have fun at worlds, everyone. Wish I could be there. Dave From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 20:07:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA07424 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:07:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA12329 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:34:44 -0700 Received: from 37qpu from [207.136.56.49] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.402) with smtp for sender: id ; Thu, 8 Jul 99 12:34:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002001bec968$acd56300$4050fea9@37qpu> From: "Matt Tyson" To: "Bryan Fournier" , , Subject: Re: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:38:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >So I say that if people want to get off of the add fixation that they should >set different plateaus of skill. How about this: >1. do an equal number of dexes with each leg in all strings >2. do an equal number of double dexes with each leg in all strings >3. do an equal number of left and right spins in all strings >4. don't repeat any move on the same side in any string >>> > >then it wouldn't be freestyle... Neither is restricting oneself to a guiltless string.... - Matt From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 8 20:12:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA07455 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:12:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Ryan Sanders Received: from hotmail.com (f275.hotmail.com [207.82.251.166]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA14086 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:46:38 -0700 Received: (qmail 66133 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jul 1999 18:44:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19990708184449.66132.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.188.197.56 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:44:49 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.188.197.56] To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Need the hook up Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:44:49 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello all, My friend Connar will be heading over to Fort Collins, Colorado next week. He will be there for over a month. If there are any stylers in the area please e-mail me your number. I'm sure Connar will appreciate it. He's guiltless too, if that helps. Have a good day, Ryan Sanders From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 9 03:11:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA08009 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:11:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990709022252.CSBO5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:22:52 -0700 Message-ID: <37855E78.964B593@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 21:29:12 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@email.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] some other questions References: <199907072329.QAA04462@email.footbag.org> <19990710.081820.4390.0.ezra_kim@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ezra Kim wrote: > > i have some more questions.... > - > although there probably is a glaring difference that i don't see: > what is the difference between a fairy dex and an atomic set? Fairy is: toe > same OUT [dex] Atomic is: toe > op OUT [dex] if you haven't taken the time to read the 5 minute tutorial on notation (http://footbag.org/movelist/5-minute-notation.html) then it goes a little something like this. toe > same OUT [dex] means that you set with your toe and the same foot does an out to in dex. toe > op OUT[dex] means that you set with your toe and the other leg does the out to in dex. Both fairy and atomic are types of sets. You can do any number of moves after these - or any - sets. Play around with it and see what you can come up with. > - > what is the whole BAP i know its the Big Add Posse. but is it a club? or > something like that? because all i know is that the world's best are in > BAP.... Then you know it all. BAP is a group of the best shredders in the world. I think there are currently 26 BAP members... many of whom are on this list. I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong about that number. > what is inspinning? An inspin is when you spin toward the bag. Set from a left foot clipper (the right side of your body) and then spin to the right. Inspin is about a spin and a half. If someone really wants to come up with a better system of determining difficulty, inspin should be ranked as harder than a regular spin - where you spin away from the bag (basically, you set behind you). > - > lastly.. > what is the stepping element? like in a stepping butterfly, etc... A quick clipper set mirage. clip > op IN[dex] Stepping usually implies "same side". So, a stepping butterfly would be a step set to a same side butterfly, or clip > op IN [dex] (plant) > same OUT [dex] > op clip A stepping set and a blurry set are one and the same - the only difference comes after the set. As I said earlier, a step implies "same side" whereas blurry generally implies "op side". Make sense? Thanks for the questions. I love the chance to ramble. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 9 05:13:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA08679 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 05:13:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Bryan Fournier Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24614; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:02:26 -0700 Received: from ShReDStEiN@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id yFGCa25615 (3925); Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9101a510.24b6cdec@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:00:44 EDT Subject: Re: Re: [freestyle] First 7 hit! To: reiddm@magma.ca, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org OK next time I'll keep my mouth zipped....technical is the future though...I won't hate on that...Worlds '99... yeah baby yeah.... ~Bryan F. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 9 18:04:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09319 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:04:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from ds9.sci.fi (ds9.sci.fi [195.74.0.54]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04929 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:59:43 -0700 Received: from artsi (DXVIII.jdyn.saunalahti.fi [195.197.88.118]) by ds9.sci.fi (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA22313 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:00:06 +0300 (EET DST) Message-Id: <199907091700.UAA22313@ds9.sci.fi> X-Sender: iikka@itu.st.jyu.fi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 20:01:36 +0300 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Iisak Liukko Subject: [freestyle] easy combos? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by email.footbag.org id RAA09295 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'm just one newbie kicker from Finland. I'm really rookie - I can hit most of two add moves but butterfly is the only 3 add move I've hit. I would be very grateful if someone would tell me some easy combos I could hit with one and two add moves. Iisak Liukko From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 9 19:54:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA09449 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:54:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05946 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:08:20 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990709180844.JMPN5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:08:44 -0700 Message-ID: <37863C34.F404BDCD@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:15:16 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iisak Liukko CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] easy combos? References: <199907091700.UAA22313@ds9.sci.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Iisak Liukko wrote: > I would be > very grateful if someone would tell me some easy combos I could hit with > one and two add moves. Anything that works both sides equally is a good combo. Try mirage > around the world > pixie > mirage > atw > pixie. That gets both sides equally. You can also switch the direction on each of the dexes: OUT atw > rev mirage > fairy > OUT atw > rev mirage > fairy. See what I'm saying about both sides? It is very important to learn the basics on both sides. If you don't start that way, it will be harder on you later. Another great drill that will help you later is just the basic clipper > clipper. Try this. Left clipper > right clipper > l clip > l clip > r clip > r clip > then three on the left > then three on the right. Try to work your way up. I've never made it past 5, but just getting that far really improved my game. Enjoy. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 9 22:50:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09676 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:50:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11344 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:55:53 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990709215619.LVJE5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:56:19 -0700 Message-ID: <37867146.637CEC5A@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:01:42 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] move list and popular opinion. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello all. With worlds right around the corner, I thought I would ask some questions about the names of moves on the moves list. All that I've done is look over the three add moves, so these questions/comments concern only that section. We always hear about how atom smasher is ripped off by the current add system, but what about that scrambled eggbeater? That is an atom smasher except that the second dex is also out to in. Do people actually hit this?? And the tap... is it still called a tap, or is it tapping mirage? I thought a tap was a set - like an atomic same side sort of thing - kind of like stepping is to blurry... the pixie legover (same side). I once heard that called a Magellan (around the world and back) funny how Magellan never even finished going around one way... Anyway, was I imagining that name, or is that really an unofficial name for the move? How about the fairy same side legover? I've been calling that a reverse Magellan based on the name that I imagined for the first move. And the pixie reverse mirage (same side)... wouldn't that actually be a pixie fairy? Seeing as how it ends on the opposite toe from which it started... The same question applies to a fairy pixie - or should I say fairy same side mirage? And one more - does the name of a double pixie toe change if there is a plant between dexes? By the rational that has been used in naming some of the other moves on the list, should it be a pixie same side mirage? Just some questions to get everyone thinking about freestyle as the pre-worlds week winds down.... -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 9 23:50:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA09765 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:50:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from chaos.Vivid.com (chaos.vivid.com [207.105.222.69]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11958 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:34:02 -0700 Received: from vivid.com (gwvivid2.platinum.com [207.105.222.53]) by chaos.Vivid.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA17200; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3786791F.83BD27C8@vivid.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:38:51 -0700 From: Ethan Klein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Derric Scalf CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] move list and popular opinion. References: <37867146.637CEC5A@dallasfootbag.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey footbag headz! Derric Scalf wrote: > > We always hear about how atom smasher is ripped off by the current add > system, but what about that scrambled eggbeater? That is an atom > smasher except that the second dex is also out to in. Do people > actually hit this?? I've seen Sunil hit it pretty easily. We always called it "omelette" (reverse miraging reverse mirage) > > the pixie legover (same side). I once heard that called a Magellan > (around the world and back) funny how Magellan never even finished going > around one way... Anyway, was I imagining that name, or is that really > an unofficial name for the move? How about the fairy same side > legover? I've been calling that a reverse Magellan based on the name > that I imagined for the first move. I named Magellen a few years ago (even though it was my friend Alex hitting it ) - it's kind-of a stupid name and yes, we're aware of the historical inaccuracy. maybe "pixie pickup" or "hey, I don't feel like involving my other leg in this move" would be better names...well... maybe not. > > And one more - does the name of a double pixie toe change if there is a > plant between dexes? By the rational that has been used in naming some > of the other moves on the list, should it be a pixie same side mirage? We always referred to double pixie (no plant) into opp toe as "terrage." (toe - same in - same in - opp toe) Genzu then started hitting "enterrage" - which is a terraging leg over. Pretty cool. > Just some questions to get everyone thinking about freestyle as the > pre-worlds week winds down.... DUDE - I'm super psyched to roll to worlds and accualize some serious shred--ding! been shredding hard lately with Huge, Torch, S-nil and "the man, the myth, the legend" Chris Park - who has just moved to San Fran and is resharpening his blades. (yes, he's hitting "Park-walk" all over the place." I'm pumped to shred with all of you Tejas boyz - i know that you have been rampaging through the hein skool sessions. I'm psyched to see the patented Scalf fairy set and maybe get an improptu legbeater lesson. Till wed. night... -- |!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!| Ethan Louis Klein vivid studios ethan@vivid.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Sat Jul 10 14:41:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00703 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:41:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f63.hotmail.com [207.82.251.197]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA19412 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:45:44 -0700 Received: (qmail 4912 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jul 1999 07:45:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19990710074539.4911.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 141.84.137.143 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:45:39 PDT X-Originating-IP: [141.84.137.143] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] move list and popular opinion. Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:45:39 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ethan Klein wrote: >I named Magellen a few years ago (even though it was my friend Alex >hitting it ) - it's kind-of a stupid name and yes, we're aware of the >historical inaccuracy. maybe "pixie pickup" or "hey, I don't feel like >involving my other leg in this move" would be better names...well... maybe >not. I always called this a Hobbit, after JRR Tolkiens(sp) "The Hobbit, or there and back again a Hobbit Holliday". I'm missing worlds this year so I guess I'll see you all in 2000 (unless the world ends before then). -Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Sun Jul 11 16:19:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02099 for freestyle-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03113 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 01:34:03 -0700 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #39336) with SMTP id <0FEP006016H90Z@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 02:34:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 02:34:21 -0600 (MDT) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] move list and popular opinion. In-reply-to: <37867146.637CEC5A@dallasfootbag.org> To: Derric Scalf Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Derric Scalf wrote: > We always hear about how atom smasher is ripped off by the current add > system, but what about that scrambled eggbeater? That is an atom > smasher except that the second dex is also out to in. Do people > actually hit this?? I hit this from time to time. I've always considered the second dex to be like the second dex in a blizzard. It feels the same anyway. > the pixie legover (same side). I once heard that called a Magellan > (around the world and back) I always thought pixie legover was toe>same in dex>op out dex> same toe funny how Magellan never even finished going > around one way.. Same with a stepping butterfly or ripwalk or stepping anything for that matter as far as the first dex is concerned anyway. You can apply that todozens of moves I'm sure. > And the pixie reverse mirage (same side)... wouldn't that actually be a > pixie fairy? Seeing as how it ends on the opposite toe from which it > started... The same question applies to a fairy pixie - or should I say > fairy same side mirage? Again I've thought of this as another move; "smear" toe> same in> op out> op toe > And one more - does the name of a double pixie toe change if there is a > plant between dexes? By the rational that has been used in naming some > of the other moves on the list, should it be a pixie same side mirage? I've always considered that the first dex of all these moves was planted and I've called the move above "pixie squared". See ya'll at worlds, BRAD From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Mon Jul 12 15:29:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03209 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:29:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f81.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.81]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA24569 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 05:44:22 -0700 Received: (qmail 97647 invoked by uid 0); 12 Jul 1999 12:44:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19990712124433.97646.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.206.120.62 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 05:44:33 PDT X-Originating-IP: [128.206.120.62] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] move list and popular opinion. Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:44:33 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Again I've thought of this as another move; >"smear" toe> same in> op out> op toe > Hey, What's up? I believe that [toe> same in> op out> op toe] is actually smudge. Smear is [toe> same in> op in> op toe]. At least that I have always known. Late, Ian _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 13 01:41:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03669 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:41:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26599 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:57:51 -0700 Received: from hh1114112 ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA14471; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:59:23 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990712115826.0096f380@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:00:48 -0700 To: "Ian Dubman" , freestyle@footbag.org From: Matt Avery Subject: Re: [freestyle] move list and popular opinion. In-Reply-To: <19990712124433.97646.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 07:44 AM 7/12/99 -0500, Ian Dubman wrote: > > > >>From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Again I've thought of this as another move; >>"smear" toe> same in> op out> op toe >> > >Hey, What's up? I believe that [toe> same in> op out> op toe] is actually >smudge. Smear is [toe> same in> op in> op toe]. At least that I have >always known. >Late, >Ian > Ian, Correct. Ive been hitting something new lately...pixi eggbeater. Anyone have a name for it? Im off to Chocago! Just Shred it. Matt Avery From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 13 04:52:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA04033 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 04:52:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06603 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:25:24 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990713032552.OOOI5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:25:52 -0700 Message-ID: <378AB316.CBF0449F@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:31:34 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] grand project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hola! As I'm sure most of you are in Chicago, I don't expect much of a response now, but I'll try... A while back, I heard from a friend who was trying to put together a list of tutorial type messages to help beginners learn the basics. I have since had a hard drive crash and lost all of my bookmarks. I know that over the years, there has been a lot of good advice given over this list, and I think he was on to something trying to get it all in one place. If anyone knows where I can find good advice on moves of any level, please let me know - or just send it to me (derric@dallasfootbag.org). There will soon - I say soon but I mean a month or so - be a page on http://www.dallasfootbag.org that will have advice on many of the more common two and three add moves - clippers, ATWs, legovers, butterflies, osises, etc. Are you tired of seeing people ask the same questions over and over about 'how do I do clippers?' or 'How do I do an osis?' I don't want to discourage questions - that isn't it at all... It is important to note that a lot of new people are joining this list daily and they really don't have any other place to find advice. I love being able to answer questions - kind of an ego thing I guess... Anyway, if you know of a web site (is Hackman broken?) that has advice on moves, pass it along. I would appreciate it. Thanks. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Mon Jul 19 06:52:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02420 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 06:52:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199907191352.GAA02420@email.footbag.org> X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: "Jboy Gran" To: Subject: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:52:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Status: Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I just got back from the '99 World Championships. And I firmly believe that we need a whole new concept for the rating system, seen as how with every advancement in the "technology" of moves (paradox, gyro, in-spin, symposium, etc.) we revise the system and make it more complicated so that it will seem right for most moves. My first idea is that we throw away dexes altogether and have a new way of rating the circling of the footbag. What I propose is that we draw an imaginary horizontal line through the footbag, such that it is extending forward and backward along the direction the player is facing. Let's call this the "dex line". In other words, if the bag is on your right side (say, from a left-foot clipper set), the dex line would extend forward from the bag and backwards along the right side of your body. So, here's how difficulty would be assessed using the dex line system: (1) Any time the player's leg crosses the dex line on the underneath side of the bag, the player is awarded one point. (2) Any time the player's leg crosses the dex line on the top side of the bag, he is awarded two points. (3) One extra pont is awarded for each time a different leg crosses it topside in the same move (excluding "complimentary dexes" as described previously by Aaron de Glanville, whereby two legs crossing the dex line are going in exactly the same direction, e.g., "double legover" and "ripwalk"). (4) One extra point is awarded if the leg crosses topside while spinning (torque, gyro mirage). (5) Any time the player's leg crosses the dex line topside while there is no plant on the other leg, he/she recieves a bonus point (symposium). A list of moves and their dex line ratings: (clipper) toe>op clip del = 2 (clipper) toe>same clip del = 3 (butterfly) toe>op out dex>op clip del = 4 (legover) toe>op out dex>same toe del = 3 (atw) toe>same in dex>same toe del = 3 (mirage) toe>op in dex>op toe del = 4 (double legover) toe>op in dex>op out dex>same toe del = 6 (paradon) toe>op out dex>same out dex>op clip del = 7 (toe blur) toe>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 8 (paradox mirage) clip>same in dex>op toe del = 5 (blur) clip>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 7 (torque) clip>op in dex>(front spin)>op clip del = 6 (gyro mirage) clip>(back spin)>same in dex>op toe del = 5 (gyro pdx mirage) clip>(back spin)>op in dex>op toe del = 6 (ripwalk) = 6 (blurriest) = 8 (pdx torque) = 7 (atom smasher) = 8 Any and all thoughts are welcome. Jboy From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Mon Jul 19 07:12:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02490 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:12:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from admin.cgocable.net (admin.cgocable.net [24.226.1.21]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13273 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:14:51 -0700 Received: from [24.226.9.44] (cgowave-9-44.cgocable.net [24.226.9.44]) by admin.cgocable.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10614 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907142014.QAA10614@admin.cgocable.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:24:21 -0400 Subject: [freestyle] Superstar From: "Neil Bearse" To: freestyle@footbag.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Has anyone ever tried the Hacky Sack Superstar model? A store in town just started carrying them... and i was wondering if theyre decent. its a 32 panel bag... and since i cant get my hands on a Juice.. its probly better than my Adidas 14 panel... Any thoughts? Wishin i was in Chicago Neil Bearse From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Mon Jul 19 07:12:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02495 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:12:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f139.hotmail.com [207.82.251.18]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA13848 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:42:31 -0700 Received: (qmail 33417 invoked by uid 0); 14 Jul 1999 20:41:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19990714204139.33416.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 161.38.1.102 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:41:38 PDT X-Originating-IP: [161.38.1.102] From: "Troy Wheeler" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] need info Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:41:38 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hola all, first time writing, i am a student at the art institute of pittsburgh, and so far i haven't seen many good hackers up here, so if your pittsburgh give me a call(412)322-2071, Beyond that, i am trying to get a multi-media project together about the sport of footbag, it would be a inter-active piece, i need info, i already have tons from www.footbag.org, and all i need now is info on the sport from players. i have all graphics and some video, and text on the sport, but some quotes and so on would be greatly appreciated, along with video and pics that aren't on the footbag web cite. thanks keep shreddin' troy wheeler From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Mon Jul 19 07:12:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02500 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:12:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from nccn2.nccn.net (IDENT:root@nccn2.nccn.net [209.79.220.12]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25960 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:37:25 -0700 Received: from left (tc2-162.nccn.net [209.79.221.162]) by nccn2.nccn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/*rGs* 99.06.15-NCCN2-) with SMTP id KAA11776 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:37:29 -0700 Message-ID: <001401becfb1$a2551ac0$cbdd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] World Records Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:34:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What is the Ripwalk Record? Barfly?(I hit five totally clean) Torque? Spinning Osis?(five) Pixie Leg over?(twelve) Spinning butterfly?(five) Ducking osis same foot?(seven) Swirl?(three) Twirl? Smear? Symposium Mirage? Shreds(not drills like osai back and forth) Ducking Guiltlessly?(13 mostly different) Consecutive spins?(including osis and rakes) Same Leg Double Dexes? I hope ounce people get back from worlds there will be some new broken records and a large response to this. ShredOnLon From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Mon Jul 19 07:13:12 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02521 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:13:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18188 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:42:29 -0700 Received: from dave (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00273 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:43:52 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <000301bed13c$c6a68f80$0101010a@dave> From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: [freestyle] Results? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:44:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Is anyone out there going to share some worlds results with those of us that couldn't go? Dave From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Mon Jul 19 22:33:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03357 for freestyle-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:33:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from alastair.tir.com (alastair.tir.com [216.40.128.69]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13249 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:18:22 -0700 Received: from jaymolde (port16.mico19.tir.com [216.40.139.155]) by alastair.tir.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA26942 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001301bed22c$55be9560$9b8b28d8@jaymolde> From: "Jay Moldenhauer" To: Subject: [freestyle] Some results!!!!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:19:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BED20A.CC384BE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BED20A.CC384BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott Davidson took 1st with a nice routine, Ryan made it very close = with a 2nd, followed by Rick Reese in 3rd. Hope this tides you over til someone with more detailed info comes = along. The Jayman Thanks to the kids. =20 PS, CONGRATULATIONS SCOTT! ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BED20A.CC384BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott Davidson took 1st with a nice = routine, Ryan=20 made it very close with a 2nd, followed by Rick Reese in = 3rd.
 
Hope this tides you over til someone = with more=20 detailed info comes along.
 
The Jayman
 
Thanks to the kids. 
 
PS,  CONGRATULATIONS=20 SCOTT!
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BED20A.CC384BE0-- From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 17:59:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04500 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:59:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25704 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 04:31:59 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990720113158.IGLT9024.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 04:31:58 -0700 Message-ID: <37945F85.51D6EAAE@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:37:41 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lon Smith CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] World Records References: <001401becfb1$a2551ac0$cbdd4fd1@left> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > Torque? I think my best is 17. > Swirl?(three) Jon Schneider has got to have this record... I saw him hit 10 or so dragon swirls (set and caught on dragon). > Smear? Only three here. I've seen Daryl do more than that on tape. > Consecutive spins?(including osis and rakes) If you count osis, I've done quite a few. I'm not really sure of the number... How about just consecutive spins or gyro moves? > Same Leg Double Dexes? I think Sunil "Tsunami" Jani - one of the new members of the BAP - hit 20 same leg double dexes in a row... barrages, paradons, terrages, barflies, etc. Worlds was great! I can't wait to see some of the footage from the late night jams... Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 17:59:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04479 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:59:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web1004.mail.yahoo.com (web1004.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.94]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA19690 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:11:09 -0700 Message-ID: <19990720024356.4494.rocketmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [130.212.201.127] by web1004.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:43:56 EDT Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:43:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Ahren Gehrman Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org What's the dilly shredders? How was worlds (to those who didn't flake out like I did, sorry about that)? I've already heard of some sick shit that was hit (shooting torque by the Disco Ninja in case you didn't know already). Anyway, I saw this post about a new difficulty rating system and just had to respond (you know me). Jboy Gran writes > I just got back from the '99 World Championships. > And I firmly > believe that we need a whole new concept for the > rating system, Cool, more confusion! > we revise the system > and make it more > complicated so that it will seem right for most > moves. Complicated is a good quality. I think it's logical to judge this system by testing the results to see if they make sense. Let's see, under this new system... > (butterfly) toe>op out dex>op clip del = 4 is equal to > (mirage) toe>op in dex>op toe del = 4 and > (toe blur) toe>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 8 has more difficulty than > (blur) clip>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 7 O.K. that sounds about right to me (?). How about you guys? > Any and all thoughts are welcome. Let's please give this adds/difficulty system shit a rest. Jboy, I appreciate you trying to improve the sport of freestyle, but difficulty rating systems just hinder the creative force behind it. As far as judging for tournaments, the add system is fine. It gives a basic idea of the difficulty of the routine, which is all that is needed. I'm not going to keep posting about this because I don't want to repeat myself over and over. I already posted about this a couple weeks ago. I would, however, like to hear everybodys opinions on this subject. EVERYBODYS! I know who's on the list and if you don't reply I'll have to lay the smackdown on your roody poo candy ass. If the majority of the people think that the difficulty rating system is that important and should be changed, then come to an agreement, submit it to IFAB and shut the fuck up about it. If the majority of the people think that it's not important, and that creativity should rule, then, once again, shut the fuck up about it. I don't want to have to keep hearing you guys go around and around about this same subject for much longer. It's why a lot of people don't participate in the discussions on here. By the way, good job on Sultans of Shred Eli and Dave. I just watched it and I'm once again inspired. I was already planning to skool my ass of this year, but now I'm even more excited. O.K. I want all your replys ASAP! Torch P.S. Grats to Sunil and Mika as well. Welcome to the big boys circle. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 17:59:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04492 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:59:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Tony Glick Received: from Allman144@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id bGIUa11391 (3889) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1e2c6685.24c52f7a@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:48:42 EDT Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle Digest V1 #689 To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 51 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 99-07-19 11:46:57 EDT, Jboy wrote: << My first idea is that we throw away dexes altogether and have a new way of rating the circling of the footbag. What I propose is that we draw an imaginary horizontal line through the footbag, such that it is extending forward and backward along the direction the player is facing. Let's call this the "dex line". In other words, if the bag is on your right side (say, from a left-foot clipper set), the dex line would extend forward from the bag and backwards along the right side of your body. >> An imaginary line? The only problem I have with that is how difficult it would be to judge during a routine. Considering how fast a leg goes around the bag, it would be hard to decipher. Instead of being concerned with dexterities of one leg, we should be concerned with opposing dexterities...like atom smasher or to put it more general...atomic sets (is that what you meant in point number 3?). That is my story and I am sticking to it. Tony From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 17:59:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04484 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:59:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28613 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:43:16 -0700 Received: from dave (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00301 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:45:02 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <004301bed2c6$de52abb0$0101010a@dave> From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] World Records Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:45:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I have been keeping a list of consecutive records since last year. The results I have are based on what has been sent my way, and they are by no means official. I will add your numbers to my next posting of this list, Lon. Anyone else who feels they have a rightful place on this list, send me an email, and I will add you. Double ATW: 18 (Rippin) Double Switchover: 5 (Damian) Drifter: 34 (Hu-mungis) Osis: 186 (Kosmo) Whirl: 39 (Regulator) Symposium Mirage: 17 (Regulator) Atom Smasher: 8 (Adrian Dick) Barfly: 9 (Hu-mungis) Blender: 7 (Rippin) Paradox Drifter: 8 (Hu-mungis) Paradox Whirls: 17 (Hu-mungis) Ripwalk: 23 (Genzu) Smear: 26 (Regulator) Symposium Whirl: 7 (Regulator) Blurry Whirl: 5 (Regulator,Enlightener) Paradox Blenders: 3 (Hu-mungis) Paradox Legbeater: 5 (Genzu) Paradox Symposium Whirls: 4 (Regulator) Paradox Torque: 5 (Jubal), 3 (Genzu)Tarrage: 6 (Genzu) Guiltless flyers: 30 (Ironman) 2 bag juggling: 182 (Genzu) 3 bag juggling: 19 (Genzu) From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 17:59:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04495 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:59:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from ego.mind.net (IDENT:mail@ego.mind.net [206.99.66.9]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22037 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:23:00 -0700 Received: from 206.151.158.59 (ip311.mind.net [206.151.159.245]) by ego.mind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA16236 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:22:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3793B2F3.6574@mind.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:21:27 +0000 From: Forest Schrodt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Some results!!!!! References: <001301bed22c$55be9560$9b8b28d8@jaymolde> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I am sure everyone will be suprised to hear this, but the Regulator some how managed to win the impromptu shred contest that was held after the second round of freestyle. Brian McKenzy(spelling?) took second place. I, unfortunately, do not remember the rest of the results for certain but I think Matt Churney came in at a close 3rd. It was lots of fun dispite the lop-sided victory by the Regulator. Later all. Forest From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 18:09:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04607 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:09:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA30517 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:19:31 -0700 Received: from [206.67.46.232] (dhcp-206-67-46-238 [206.67.46.238]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23442; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990720024356.4494.rocketmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <19990720024356.4494.rocketmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:21:13 -0700 To: Ahren Gehrman From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 10:43 PM -0400 7/19/99, Ahren Gehrman wrote: >Let's please give this adds/difficulty system shit a rest. Dude, the idea is to come up with a good new difficulty assessment system that will actually accommodate all the cool shit being hit. So it's a good idea to start completely over, as Jboy has done. His system may very well work. Give it a chance. If we can't talk about this sort of stuff here, where else? >If the majority of the people think that the difficulty rating system >is that important and should be changed, then come to an agreement, >submit it to IFAB and shut the fuck up about it. That's the idea -- coming to agreement before submitting it to IFAB is supposed to be done on this list. (I created the list, so I get to say.) :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 18:10:12 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04619 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:10:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA30572 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:21:29 -0700 Received: from [206.67.46.232] (dhcp-206-67-46-238 [206.67.46.238]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24658; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1e2c6685.24c52f7a@aol.com> References: <1e2c6685.24c52f7a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:23:21 -0700 To: Tony Glick From: Steve Goldberg Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle Digest V1 #689 Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 9:48 PM -0400 7/19/99, Tony Glick wrote: >An imaginary line? The only problem I have with that is how difficult it >would be to judge during a routine. You don't judge any of that stuff during a routine. Jboy is describing a theory of add computation, not a practice. The tricks would all get their adds assigned based on what a player has to do to hit the trick, and from then on, that trick is always worth the same number of adds. It's just the theory that leads to the assignment of that add value. (Right now, people to don't judge which difficulty components go into each trick while watching the routine -- they know every trick being hit (usually) and what their add values/categories are. This just changes those numbers.) Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 19:05:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04684 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:05:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (wya-lfd118.hotmail.com [207.82.252.182]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA32246 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:09:28 -0700 Received: (qmail 90553 invoked by uid 0); 20 Jul 1999 18:08:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19990720180854.90552.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.27.84.233 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:08:50 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.27.84.233] From: "Brian Waligorski" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:08:50 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ahren Gehrman wrote: >I would, however, like to hear everybodys opinions on this subject. >EVERYBODYS! I know who's on the list and if you don't reply I'll >have to lay the smackdown on your roody poo candy ass. Hehe.... Well I wouldn't want that to happen to me so here is my two cents... I think the add system is great, but not perfect. Unless a really great new system can be hammered out; one that will be less confusing or at least as confusing but more accurate, methinks the one we got will suffice. I hope I have pleased the God Ahren as so he wont smite me. :) Brian Waligorski From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 19:27:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04708 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:27:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com ([209.185.241.192]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA32675 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:27:14 -0700 Received: (qmail 4998 invoked by uid 0); 20 Jul 1999 18:27:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990720182714.4997.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.206.120.62 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:27:14 PDT X-Originating-IP: [128.206.120.62] From: "Ian Dubman" To: torchbap@yahoo.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:27:14 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org All, >I've already heard of some sick shit that was hit (shooting >torque by the Disco Ninja in case you didn't know already). In his routine, he hit (I beleive) frigid blurry whirl(in other words, there was a distinct delay afterwards) to pdx. torque. I beleive that was the combo--if I am wrong feel free to correct me, but it was phat nonetheless. OK My view point. I think Jboy's system sounds nearly as, if not more, complicated than the present system. Yet, his does have merits. I DO beleive toe blur is more difficult than blur, though it does not get the credit under the present add system. You know, Jeremiah Riely came up with an idea similar to Jboys a while back and was shot down also. I think if these two got to together, they might be able to come up wth a reasonable system... Though, will they stick to it for a full year until IFAB meets again? Who knows.... As far asjudging for tournaments, the add system is fine. It gives a basic idea of the difficulty of the routine, which is all that is needed. Yeah, for tournaments it works. But you said it most perfectly with basic idea--if/when the sport blooms and becomes more publicized, people aren't going to just want a basic idea of difficulty any longer. >I would, however, like to hear everybodys opinions on this subject. >EVERYBODYS! I know who's on the list and if you don't reply I'll have to >lay the smackdown on your roody poo candy ass. You have it. >If the majority of the people think that the difficulty rating system >is that important and should be changed, then come to an agreement, >submit it to IFAB and shut the fuck up about it. Couldn't agree more. When a few people converse with one another and get an idea, put it together and then post it. I don't care enough or have enough time to do so...sorry. >By the way, good job on Sultans of Shred Eli and Dave. Anyone got an e-mail or phone number for these guys? >P.S. Grats to Sunil and Mika as well. Yes, definitely. Later, Ian D. MUFF PS MUFF JAM #2 will be taking place on the weekend of Jul 31 and Aug 1st, come out and join us. Want details? e-mail me. or call Joe Marschall @ 573-443-7144 _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 20 21:12:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04807 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:12:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04103 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:17:15 -0700 Received: from dave (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00327 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:19:04 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <004501bed2ed$241a5460$0101010a@dave> From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: [freestyle] Consecutive Records Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:19:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok, here is the latest list with all of the updates that have been sent my way. Keep 'em coming! Double ATW: 18 (Rippin) Double Switchover: 5 (Damian) Drifter: 34 (Hu-mungis) Osis: 186 (Kosmo) Pixie Legover: 12 (Lon) Swirl: 3 (Lon) Symposium Mirage: 17 (Regulator) Whirl: 39 (Regulator) Atom Smasher: 8 (Adrian Dick) Barfly: 9 (Hu-mungis) Blender: 7 (Rippin) Toe-Set Blur: 10 (Sunil) Paradox Drifter: 10 (Eli), 8 (Hu-mungis) Paradox Whirls: 17 (Hu-mungis) Ripwalk: 23 (Genzu) Smear: 26 (Regulator) Spinning Butterfly: 5 (Lon) Spinning Osis: 5 (Lon) Symposium Whirl: 7 (Regulator) Vortex: 2 (Red) Blurry Whirl: 5 (Regulator,Enlightener) Mobius: 2 (Lon) Paradox Blenders: 4 (GF Smoothie), 3 (Hu-mungis) Paradox Legbeater: 5 (Genzu) Paradox Symposium Whirls: 4 (Regulator) Paradox Torque: 5 (Jubal), 3 (Genzu) Tarrage: 6 (Genzu) Guiltless flyers: 30 (Ironman) 2 bag juggling: 182 (Genzu) 3 bag juggling: 19 (Genzu) From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 02:31:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05079 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:31:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f160.hotmail.com [209.185.131.223]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA11890 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:24:19 -0700 Received: (qmail 63413 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 00:23:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721002349.63412.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.255.129.240 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:23:48 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.255.129.240] From: "Zeke Ibardaloza" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:23:48 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org W'sup, >From: Ahren Gehrman As far as >judging for tournaments, the add system is fine. It gives a basic idea >of the difficulty of the routine, which is all that is needed. > >I'm not going to keep posting about this because I don't want to repeat >myself over and over. I already posted about this a couple weeks ago. >I would, however, like to hear everybodys opinions on this subject. >EVERYBODYS! I know who's on the list and if you don't reply I'll have >to lay the smackdown on your roody poo candy ass. Adds are fine with me, lord knows I cant hit s#!t anyway. Can you smell what the Rock is cookin'? Knowin' my damn role, AIRZEKE From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 02:31:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05088 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:31:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Bryan Fourner Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10668; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:57:01 -0700 Received: from ShReDStEiN@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id yDGGa27418 (3962); Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <642ae912.24c65855@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:55:17 EDT Subject: Re: Re: [freestyle] World Records To: reiddm@magma.ca, owner-freestyle@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 7/20/99 11:26:58 AM, reiddm@magma.ca wrote: <> I believe Eli hits more than that in his new production "Sultans of Shred"...just speculation ~Bryan From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 02:31:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05089 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:31:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Damon Mathews Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10954 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:16:37 -0700 Received: from Damonmath@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id zULWa24269 (4534) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6d931af5.24c65d29@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:15:53 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I like the idea of more points to play with in the new system, although I would not rate atom smasher and blurriest the same. The add system works well for basic easy flowing tricks (ripwalk,blur,paradon, etc.) but for moves that seem paradox even though they are set from the toe (atom smasher, toe blur, etc) proper credit is not awarded in the add system. My only suggestion (so as not to be a candy ass) would be to explore each component of the sport (sets, spins, dexes, dex direction, paradox, symposium, in-spin, gyro, double dex, tripple dex, duck, dive, zoom, plant, stomp, no plant, pogo, fairy, pixie, atomic, nuclear, flyers, etc. and the list goes on.....and on....) and give each an assigned agreed upon value. Then break each trick down into its components and do the math. So far the add system has done an awesome job. But shredders and stylers want more. So someone or the group as a whole must step up and change the system to an agreed upon standard that fits every possible or conceivable trick, combo, or concept. Jboy may be into something with assigning tricks values based on the travel of the bag and the dex line. The new system may be a ten point system. Keep submitting ideas and eventually we can figure it all out. Damon From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 02:31:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05094 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:31:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f70.hotmail.com [207.82.251.210]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA10930 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:15:12 -0700 Received: (qmail 56842 invoked by uid 0); 20 Jul 1999 23:14:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990720231431.56841.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.161.81 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:14:30 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.161.81] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:14:30 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Brian Waligorski wrote: >I think the add system is great, but not perfect. It's quite ingenious, but still archaic. >Unless a really great new system can be hammered out; one that will be less > >confusing or at least as confusing but more accurate, methinks the >one >we got will suffice. The last "D" in ADDs shouldn't mean difficulty. It should stand for distribution. ADDs show how many components you are using in a move, not how difficult the move is. If y'all think a butterfly is as hard as a toe-blur, go on thinking it. And if you think it's just a few instances where a move get the shaft from ADDs, go on thinking that too. Not all instances are as glaring as butterfly/toe-blur, but they're still there. Personally, I am training myself to judge difficulty another way. After seeing or hitting a move, instead of counting ADDs, I will: 1. check my pulse for any abnormalities 2. look at the faces of the people around me for any extreme facial expressions 3. listen for applause So until someone invents the hein-ometer, I will not be using ADDs to judge difficulty. So continue to use paradox, x-body, dexterity, etc. in the description of moves, just don't use them when quantifying difficulty. I know it's going to be hard, I was brought up on ADDs too, but I think it's time we let go just a bit. Not everything in life is quantifiable. Lastly, I'd like to thank all of the shredders who have continued to push the envelope of "true" difficulty. Not just hitting the moves with high ADD counts, but dialing those smaller ADD, but just as difficult moves as well. Thanks. DanK From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 08:03:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA05703 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:03:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (root@diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19307 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:10:54 -0700 Received: from default (madmax-186.sfsu.edu [130.212.201.186]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA17888; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990721001024.007daaf0@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:10:24 -0700 To: Matt Avery From: Tu Vu Subject: Re: [freestyle] move list and popular opinion. Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990712115826.0096f380@mail.direcpc.com> References: <19990712124433.97646.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 12:00 PM 7/12/99 -0700, you wrote: >Correct. Ive been hitting something new lately...pixi eggbeater. Anyone >have a name for it? Im off to Chocago! i hit it where the first two dexes are on the right foot and the leg-over is on my left toe. i call it Taboo but you can call it whatever you want. 2 huge From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 16:38:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05972 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:38:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f114.hotmail.com [209.185.131.177]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA24079 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:23:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 96112 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 14:22:35 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721142235.96111.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.255.129.207 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:22:35 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.255.129.207] From: "Zeke Ibardaloza" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] shred tapes Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:22:35 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org W'sup, I just picked up Sultans of Shred, I have all of Sean Wingert's videos and a copy of Raw Shred. I was just wondering if there are more tapes out there and who and where can I get them from. Also, is there any one planning on making a tape of this years World's? Is Matt Churney's performance in the shred contest making the cut? I hope those of you that made it here in Chicago had a good time. Later, ZEKE From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 16:39:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05983 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:39:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from iuakk.fi (lux2.iuakk.fi [194.89.13.6]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA23888 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:06:56 -0700 Received: (qmail 29882 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 14:06:49 -0000 Received: from x2-56k.ppp.19.iuakk.fi (HELO iuakk) (194.89.12.85) by lux2.iuakk.fi with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 14:06:49 -0000 Message-ID: <002b01bed382$37f40220$550c59c2@iuakk.fi> From: "Juha Linnanen" To: Subject: [freestyle] worlds '99 and me Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:06:24 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey is there someone who can tell all about worlds '99 here for all my kind of people who didn't make it to the worlds! I am very excited to know all what there happened: results, insane combos - everything and I think I'm not the only one! About worlds it is here in Finland almost impossible to get information outside this list, atleast before Finnish team comes back. So please, everyone who was there - share with us that all (and if someone wants to be really nice, I am speficially interested about how Finnish players succeeded!) About me I can tell that I'm progressing too :) Last winter I was asking in this list how to do a clipper! About a month ago I asked about ripwalk. Because of that I have been practicing my infinities (record: 13) and osises. It seems that I have been raised to another level of kicking or something. I mean, now I can do strings like this: butterfly > butterfly > osis > buttefly > paradox mirage > butterfly > double legover > butterfly > paradox mirage and so .. normally they aren't that long yet but still they do happen sometimes. Earlier my strings was something like this: legover - mirage - butterfly - paradox mirage > legover > drop. I am really excited about that change, though I still have problems with ripwalk. Now I start to see benefits of practising everything equally both sides and that I didn't rushed to do all big add tricks rightaway. I write this because I want that every new player understand that. I was lucky enough to have Justin Sexton teach me all of this. All thanks to Justin! I think this is more than enough for now, Juha L. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 16:39:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05988 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:39:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Owen Parrish Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24659 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:19:26 -0700 Received: from SuperOwen@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id zIIVa09357 (4232) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:17:46 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org How bout this? Every trick is just rated on a scale of 1 to 8? Owen "Didn't go to Worlds" Parrish From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 16:47:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06061 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:47:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06058 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:47:34 -0700 Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25528 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:00:39 -0700 Received: from [206.67.46.238] (dhcp-206-67-46-238 [206.67.46.238]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27899 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:02:32 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 11:17 AM -0400 7/21/99, Owen Parrish wrote: >How bout this? Every trick is just rated on a scale of 1 to 8? That's been discussed before. Basically, without a theory of how to rate each trick, you need a committee that would agree on it. And then the question is who is willing to take the time to do that. The answer: nobody. And of course, even if you did find such a group of qualified committee-members to sit in a room and agonize for hours over difficulty of tricks, what's to say they really know what's harder and what isn't? You need a theory of difficulty that will make it so that you can quickly rank a new trick, too. I think Jboy may have something, but it probably needs fine tuning. If you look at DLS closely, you'll see it's really simplifying the current system, removing the 5 add categories and focussing on what's important -- dexterities, windows, and plants. For a long time we've been saying that windows are important, and so are plants. Paradox is all about windows, for example, and some moves are harder because they have smaller windows, but our previous system didn't accommodate it. With DLS, basically that's what it's all about. There's no need for a paradox concept because the extra difficulty of what we call paradox moves is accounted for simply in the type of dexterity required to hit a move. Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 17:06:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06227 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:06:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25779 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:13:43 -0700 Received: from rac8.wam.umd.edu (root@rac8.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.148]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04231 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:13:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Bradley Received: from rac8.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac8.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA29165 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac8.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29157 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907211613.MAA29157@rac8.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] move difficulty Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey yhey just a thought on difficulty classifications. it seems to me that some moves that start out more difficult than others, end up being harder in the realm of shred. like inside stalls versus clipper. i think clipper stalls are easier to hit and utilize than inside stalls. my thinking is that this magnifies/exposes the futility of trying to create an accurate difficulty rating system for moves. by practice, some things will remain harder than others. a person who never learns clipper stalls will find toe blur easier than clipper set blur. as DanK said, the ADDs system is not about difficulty, its about the distribution of elements of difficulty. it says nothing about how difficult those elements actually are. JBoys proposal is a great idea, as a tool for players to assess what is difficult in dexterities. As an addendum to a judging system, it would be problematic. at least, it would if a difficulty ratio is to be calculated in scores. anyway, thats enough of my crap. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 19:37:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06324 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:37:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f195.hotmail.com [207.82.251.84]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27579 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:47:10 -0700 Received: (qmail 3448 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 17:46:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721174630.3447.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.161.81 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:46:29 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.161.81] From: "Daniel Kramer" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] shred tapes Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:46:29 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >Is Matt Churney's performance in the shred contest making the cut? Matt Churney deserves an entire tape! For those of you who don't know Matt, he IS the Avenging Disco Footbagger. He's got more style and energy in his pinky than we have in all our bodies. He has to be seen to be believed. One of the highlights of Worlds was a one-on-one duel between Matt and Ryan Mulroney. Anyone have that on tape? Later. DanK President, Matt Churney Fan Club From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 23:06:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06512 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:06:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from vivid.Vivid.com (vivid.vivid.com [207.105.222.252]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA31883 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:24:09 -0700 Received: from vivid.com (gwvivid2.platinum.com [207.105.222.53]) by vivid.Vivid.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA21873 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37963A9C.32B450F8@vivid.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:25:06 -0700 From: Ethan Klein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] energy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org OK, yes, World's exploded all my previous expectations of what an intense freestyle experience could be. The raw, amassed energy outlayed during the Saturday night exodus of shredders completely blew me away. what, 2 or 3 hundred shredders setting up shop, SHREDDING, getting booted, moving, setting up shop, SHREDDING, getting booted, moving, setting up shop, SHREDDING, getting booted, and then.... finally.... walking, "en masse" 1 mile to the dimly lit destination by the lake. The Ryan, Scott, Peter, Red/ Diamond Dave jam blowing everyone away. Ryan unleashing torrents of the SICKEST combos and moves... AWESOME. Mika laying down the smoothest strings with the classic Scandinavian flavour - so stylie. He's definitely the "Iceman." Stepping into circles with people who are clearly better than you, getting tossed the bag by Rippin after he tears through a 25 contact tapestry of freestly genius. Burrowing down into your zone, returning to that familiar, home-like sensation of kicking the bag, drop into your string, push for extension as you subconsciously feel the eyes of others on you, no time for deliberation, just go for your cutting edge combos, suck in the energy of the circle and the moment, hear the "yeah's" and "Go, baby's" as you voyage onward and upward through the flow. high fives. smiles. that's what's up! -- |!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!|!| Ethan Louis Klein vivid studios ethan@vivid.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 23:07:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06529 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:07:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA31908 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:26:27 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id RAA81554; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:26:16 -0400 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199907212126.RAA81554@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System To: grandincredible@hotmail.com (Daniel Kramer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <19990720231431.56841.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Daniel Kramer" at Jul 20, 99 04:14:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Daniel Kramer: > > The last "D" in ADDs shouldn't mean difficulty. It should stand for > distribution. ADDs show how many components you are using in a move, not how > difficult the move is. > Personally, I am training myself to judge difficulty another way. After > seeing or hitting a move, instead of counting ADDs, I will: > > 1. check my pulse for any abnormalities > 2. look at the faces of the people around me for any extreme facial > expressions > 3. listen for applause I fully agree with DanK and Torch in that the current add system is fine for competition. People who are disagreeing or are rooting for a new system have OBLVIOUSLY NEVER tried to count adds for Rippin, Eric, Ryan, Scott, or any of the other top pros. The only reason we can do it, is because the people counting adds know their shit so well. If we mess with the system say hello to the bitchiness of video verification and goodbye to 20 minute turnaround on results (which I must mention was fantastic at this past worlds... thanks judges, Brat, Vince, and others who did their part). As for non-competitive assessment of difficulty... who gives a fuck? We all know what moves are harder than others. Some moves may be hard for some and easier for others, and practice does play a big part in it as well. We do not need to improve the system for circle shred since we all know what it takes to do some moves vs. others. Of course a friggin in spin is harder than a gyro. Of course a double mirage is harder than a paradox mirage. I for one do not see the need for a new system and will not be reading much of the arguments pushing for one. Still trying to figure out what a roody poo candy ass is (and interested to see who Torch is going to lay the smackdown on)... Sunil P.S. - WORLDS 99 was such a blast... thanks to all those that made it happen... From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 21 23:19:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06548 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:19:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06545 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:19:21 -0700 Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00670 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:32:25 -0700 Received: from [206.67.46.238] (dhcp-206-67-46-238 [206.67.46.238]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28909 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907212126.RAA81554@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <199907212126.RAA81554@dept.english.upenn.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:34:18 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 5:26 PM -0400 7/21/99, Sunil Jani wrote: >I fully agree with DanK and Torch in that the current add system is fine >for competition. It's not about competition as much as it is about keeping up with the ever-increasing technical nature of our sport. As much as we argue on this list over paradox and other additional levels of difficulty, we will always need a theory of what makes tricks different (and harder). Of course nothing will be perfect, but it's definitely high time we move to the next level and come up with a better system than the old-fashioned and completely antiquated 5-category "add" system. That system is so brain-dead that it gives "delay" equal weight with "dexterity" and completely misses the boat when it comes to moves like "paradox" and "symposium" moves. So, where is the sense in continuing to use it? In competition or just informally, the old add system is ready to be retired. Out with the old, in with the new. Of all the people I'd expect to be conservative about the old system... >People who are disagreeing or are rooting for a new >system have OBLVIOUSLY NEVER tried to count adds for Rippin, Eric, Ryan, >Scott, or any of the other top pros. The only reason we can do it, is >because the people counting adds know their shit so well. I'm not sure why you say that -- the DLS (or any other system we come up with for assigning difficulty to tricks) should not change how easy it is to count adds. The principle is the same -- if you know the add value for any given move, you write it down as you see the move (and/or add it in your head if you're that good). It doesn't matter what theory led to the assignment of those add values. Sure, there's a learning curve to switch to the new system (once complete, of course), but in principle and practice, there's no difference at all. >As for non-competitive assessment of difficulty... who gives a fuck? Just about everyone on this list, evidently. Just search for the word "add" in the last three years of archives. :-) >We >all know what moves are harder than others. Some moves may be hard for >some and easier for others, and practice does play a big part in it as >well. It's not about which moves are harder -- it's about capturing the essense of the technical nature of this sport. What makes a paradox blur a paradox blur and not an egg-beater? Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 00:29:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06637 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:29:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01642 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:26:31 -0700 Received: from hh1114112 ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA2444; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:27:23 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990721192152.00929bf0@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:28:44 -0700 To: "Daniel Kramer" , freestyle@footbag.org From: Matt Avery Subject: Re: [freestyle] shred tapes and HELP In-Reply-To: <19990721174630.3447.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org HA! Yea, and I know where he gets all of his energy from. Let this be a lesson... hang out with Churney, and know the effects of long time drug use:) I was happy to get Matt on film while he was trying the new and improved "ass stall", followed by 2 summer-salts (how the hell do you spell that by the way?) and spinning on his ass, all while the bag was clenched behind his knee. Well, at least he can school mirage. Can anyone give me some advice on shredding with an injury? Ive got some shin splits and knee discomfort, and was wondering if I shouldnt shred at all until it is completely healed, or maybe just take it slow ( in other words, no 5 add combos:) Matt Avery PS- Worlds was dope, but hopefully next year the site will A) Not be runnover by gangstas and people asking you for money B) Have a Grocery store C) Have something else to chow on other than McD's D) Have Ahren there!!! At 10:46 AM 7/21/99 -0700, Daniel Kramer wrote: >>Is Matt Churney's performance in the shred contest making the cut? > >Matt Churney deserves an entire tape! For those of you who don't know Matt, >he IS the Avenging Disco Footbagger. He's got more style and energy in his >pinky than we have in all our bodies. He has to be seen to be believed. > >One of the highlights of Worlds was a one-on-one duel between Matt and Ryan >Mulroney. Anyone have that on tape? > >Later. >DanK >President, Matt Churney Fan Club From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 00:30:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06649 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:30:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01725 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:32:24 -0700 Received: from hh1114112 ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA2610; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:33:23 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990721193140.00978510@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:34:43 -0700 To: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) From: Matt Avery Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199907212126.RAA81554@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <19990720231431.56841.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sunil Wrote- >As for non-competitive assessment of difficulty... who gives a fuck? And I completely agree with him. A rating system is only needed for competition, and the current system works somewhat well. I dont think people should be wasting their time figuring ways to accurately judge the difficulty of moves, each taking 5 minutes to evaluate it. Matt From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 01:29:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06742 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:29:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Josh Childs Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02462 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:09:16 -0700 Received: from Nageylum@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id lWAa010256 (4467); Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4b133131.24c7bade@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:07:58 EDT Subject: Re: [freestyle] shred tapes and HELP To: mavery@direcpc.com, grandincredible@hotmail.com, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 7/21/99 7:43:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mavery@direcpc.com writes: << Yea, and I know where he gets all of his energy from. Let this be a lesson... hang out with Churney, and know the effects of long time drug use: >> sup kickers, i think the real source of his energy is his overuse of tiger balm, oh sweet lord all mighty, and all that is good and decent. i don't like to down kickers but i swear to god i along with everyone else that didn't have a stuffed up nose could smell him coming from like 10 minutes away. i was just really looking for a reason to write the list serve to say a big thanks to everyone that help bring worlds to reality this year. thanks to everyone it came off pretty nice, and who ever was incharge of the weather they should get ya to handle nexts years worlds too. Josh Childs From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 01:30:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06754 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:30:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f197.hotmail.com [209.185.130.107]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02052 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:55:56 -0700 Received: (qmail 34016 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 23:55:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721235550.34015.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 139.67.16.53 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:55:49 PDT X-Originating-IP: [139.67.16.53] From: "Frank Gutowski" To: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu, grandincredible@hotmail.com Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:55:49 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org To Sunil and all others, Sunil, I couldn't agree with you and Torch more. You said what you had to say, and you said it well. For my two cents, when I saw Sunil busting toe blur to toe blur, in mid-combo I didn't stop to think "Gosh, too bad those didn't keep his tripless run going", I thought "Yeah baby, you gotts the style and skillz to pay the billz". In my opinion all this technical talk has nothing to do with shredding, and I think if you want to break this shit down to a science go school your ass off instead of sitting in front of a computer talking smack. Peace out, and I hope that as many of you as possible will try to make it to the MUFF jam in a couple of weeks - will be there clad in my Tevas ready to shred out - and not worry about the fact that Dasin and paradox dada have the same number of ADDs - why the hell should I give a crap. Good luck with your calculators trying to figure out Ryan's routine next year with any system other than ADDs. Frank From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 06:57:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA07256 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:57:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03165 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:10:10 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990722010936.FHX14797.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:09:36 -0700 Message-ID: <379670C3.DDDF927A@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:15:47 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Kramer CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] shred tapes References: <19990721174630.3447.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Daniel Kramer wrote: > > One of the highlights of Worlds was a one-on-one duel between Matt and Ryan > Mulroney. Anyone have that on tape? > But of course.... This is the question. Does Ryan mind if I put that on our web site (http://dallasfootbag.org) for all to see? If anyone is in contact with the Regulator, please let me know. I love the footage... it is *unique* to say the least. The top shredder in the world doing a squeezing hand stand... Who would've guessed it? This - with Ryan's permission - and many other clips will be uploaded to our site soon. Give us about a week to get over the shock of worlds ending and about another week to get things scanned in. I'll post to the list when things are ready. -Derric Dalals Footbag Club From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 06:57:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA07261 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:57:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03266 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:16:23 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990722011552.IXE14797.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:15:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3796723B.68AA6D5@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:22:03 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Avery CC: Daniel Kramer , freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] shred tapes and HELP References: <4.1.19990721192152.00929bf0@mail.direcpc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Matt Avery wrote: > > Can anyone give me some advice on shredding with an injury? Ive got some > shin splits and knee discomfort, and was wondering if I shouldnt shred at > all until it is completely healed, or maybe just take it slow ( in other > words, no 5 add combos:) For shin splints, get good arch supports. Lavers do NOT have good arch supports. I ripped out everything that started in the shoe, put in some Dr. Scholl's arch supports, and replaced the Adidas insole over them. I haven't had any problems with my shins since. And about shredding with pain - that is NEVER advisable. It is better to take a week or two (maybe even a month) off to heal than it is to keep kicking. If you are hurt, the last thing you want to do is continue to aggrivate your injury. Let your body heal and then you can shred pain free for a long long time. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 06:57:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA07266 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:57:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05993 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:01:07 -0700 Received: from dave (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA00361 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:03:05 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <002f01bed407$e4d386c0$0101010a@dave> From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: [freestyle] Juggling Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:03:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org The only 3-bag juggling that I know of was done with one foot. Has anyone done juggling with both feet? I'm pretty sure that I saw Rick Reese do 2 bags on each foot last year, but I've never seen both feet in action at the same time. Dave :))) From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 07:03:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA07291 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:03:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (root@diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05398 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:19:21 -0700 Received: from default (madmax-136.sfsu.edu [130.212.201.136]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20245; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990721221839.007e1300@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:18:39 -0700 To: "Juha Linnanen" From: Tu Vu Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds '99 and me Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <002b01bed382$37f40220$550c59c2@iuakk.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 05:06 PM 7/21/99 +0300, you wrote: >Hey is there someone who can tell all about worlds '99 here for all my kind >of people who didn't make it to the worlds! I am very excited to know all >what there happened: results, insane combos - everything and I think I'm not >the only one! About worlds it is here in Finland almost impossible to get >information outside this list, atleast before Finnish team comes back. So >please, everyone who was there - share with us that all (and if someone >wants to be really nice, I am speficially interested about how Finnish >players succeeded!) ok i'm suprisied noone has posted any results but here's some off the top of my head: 1.scott davidson 2.ryan mulroney 3.rippin rick reese 4.peter irish 5.tuan vu 6.gf smoothie greg nelson 7.eric wulff 8. sunil jani 9-13???? justin sexton? daryl genz? tu vu? juho vesa? john schnedier? Illka? team 1.tuan vu/eric wulff 2.rippn'/daryl 3.sam conlon/lisa mcdaniel 4.peter irish/greg nelson 5.tu vu/james roberts women's single: 1.sam conlon 2.carol wedeymeyer 3.tricia george 4.mel schnedier 5.jane jones 6.val davidson intermediate singles 1.alex zerbe 2.mark inzinger 3.brad kaplan 4.annti?? (from finland) i hope this helps Tu Huge From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 22 16:09:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07621 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:09:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f40.hotmail.com [209.185.131.103]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA13702 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:50:02 -0700 Received: (qmail 1898 invoked by uid 0); 22 Jul 1999 13:49:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19990722134927.1897.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.251.32.16 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:49:26 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.251.32.16] From: "alex ibardaloza" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re:Avenging Disco Footbagger Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:49:26 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org W'sup, >From: "Daniel Kramer" >>Is Matt Churney's performance in the shred contest making the cut? > >Matt Churney deserves an entire tape! For those of you who don't know Matt, >he IS the Avenging Disco Footbagger. He's got more style and energy in his >pinky than we have in all our bodies. He has to be seen to be believed. >One of the highlights of Worlds was a one-on-one duel between Matt and Ryan >Mulroney. Anyone have that on tape? > >Later. >DanK >President, Matt Churney Fan Club disturbing...most disturbing. Not the response I expected, distubing indeed. Later, ZEKE _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 06:43:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08680 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:43:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (root@diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26269 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:10:54 -0700 Received: from default (madmax-84.sfsu.edu [130.212.201.84]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28405 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990722201118.007cca60@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:11:18 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] missing carol bag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org i know this is a long shot, but i lost a carolbag at worlds while i let people kick with it in circles early in the week. out of the kindness of your hearts, if anyone found a bluish/purple carolbag at the end of a session at worlds please contact me, i will reward you dearly! the bag was fairly new like (only played with three times!) so if some good samatarian would e-mail back, i will hook you up. Tu Vu From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 06:43:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08685 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:43:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Tony Glick Received: from Allman144@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v21.9.) id bEFYa19746 (4458) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <199fa7e0.24c8ded1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:53:37 EDT Subject: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle Digest V1 #692 To: freestyle@email.footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 51 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org In a message dated 99-07-22 11:48:55 EDT, Frank wrote: << For my two cents, when I saw Sunil busting toe blur to toe blur, in mid-combo I didn't stop to think "Gosh, too bad those didn't keep his tripless run going", I thought "Yeah baby, you gotts the style and skillz to pay the billz" >> Frank is right, Frank is DAMN right. Enough said. Anyway, The Torch mentioned that Tuan hit a shooting torque. What leg does the torque dex on that move? Tony From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 16:37:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09004 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:37:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f234.hotmail.com [207.82.251.125]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA02173 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 04:50:03 -0700 Received: (qmail 15775 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jul 1999 11:49:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19990723114929.15774.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 141.84.137.144 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 04:49:27 PDT X-Originating-IP: [141.84.137.144] From: "Andrew McCargar" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 04:49:27 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok so I'm voicing in on this somewhat late, but cince when have I missed a chance to fan those flames. Warning those of you who are sick of this subject, this is a long post so you'd better stop reading now. Torch wrote: >Let's please give this adds/difficulty system shit a rest. Jboy, I >appreciate you trying to improve the sport of freestyle, but difficulty >rating systems just hinder the creative force behind it. As far as judging >for tournaments, the add system is fine. It gives a basic idea of the >difficulty of the routine, which is all that is needed. Ok I really dissagree, in fact I think difficulty ratings actually add to creativity, or atleast to my apreatiation of the sport. Lets use the the classic example let's say you're playing in front of a croud and hit steping osis to paradox blender, croud is silent, you pass it of to the next guy who hitts pendulum to forhead stall and the croud goes wild. Obviously they are apreaciating a certain amount of style, but the difficulty of the moves is lost on them. Now use me as an example, I can hit a lot of four and five add moves, but cann't do swirl. From my expirience as a player I can get a sence of how difficult it is, but something like Ripstein is compleatly lost on me, I don't have the point of reference to understand how it compares to moves I know. Like whise if in the mittle of a run I manage to hit blurriest to swirl I expect the blurriest to make more of an impression even though the swirl was harder for me. What I am trying to say is that ranking the moves just adds another level of understanding to the sport. I think at least most of us newer players (read started playing with in the last 5 years) can remember a time when we first saw open level players, and I know that all I saw was a long string of uninteligable leg movements followed by a drop or pass, it all looked cool, but really I couldn't follow it. Well understanding the add system and Job's notation helped me to better understand how all of those motions somehow made moves and suddenly I could follow moves I couldn't do and apreaciat that paradox torque was a lot more hein than spinning osis. Now however I would also like to see the add system replaced with something more acurate. Even many of you out there who keep preaching about how little adds matter, well many of you I have seen play in person and strangly enough I seem to remember seeing a lot of butterflys and osis (not to name names) point being so far as I beileve rating moves adds something to the sport it also changes how we play and how we think about how we play. I think probably the only solution to all this is to find a more reliable system to rank moves to give more dificult move their just due. I give all props to jboy to the latest atempt, but reluctantly I have to agree with Josh Penny and many others that the answer doesn't lie in any mathmatical system. Ahren continued: >If the majority of the people think that the difficulty rating system is >that important and should be changed, then come to an agreement, submit it >to IFAB and shut the fuck up about it. > >If the majority of the people think that it's not important, and that >creativity should rule, then, once again, shut the fuck up about it. Well personally I love to hear peoples ideas about changing the add system or judging system, both need to be changed and if the ideas don't make their way to the active players then how will anything change. Steve once called this forum a "free for all" which I'd have to agree with, we're not likely to come to an agreement here, but it is a good place to share and collect ideas before and after you make any new proposals. If you don't like to read about it, skip those posts. Basically my one hope is that we can come at least to this much of an agreement: those who hate adds and don't want moves to have to be rated except in competition, don't use them, but also don't keep telling the rest of us how we're killing creativity for the rest who feel that ranking moves and counting elements actually adds to our understanding of freestyle keep trying to improve the system. Comments? -Andrew From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 16:37:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08999 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:37:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Ezra Kim Received: (from ezra_kim@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EF7RW23V; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:39:10 EDT To: freestyle@email.footbag.org Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:41:20 -0700 Subject: [freestyle] worlds location Message-ID: <19990725.004120.3550.1.ezra_kim@juno.com> References: <199907222331.QAA07724@email.footbag.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hi, i was wondering is there a location set for the worlds next year? is there some location selection process or somethin? just wondering ... - --ez ps. it should be in Berkeley....(-; From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 16:37:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09009 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:37:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03576 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:39:34 -0700 Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04583 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:39:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Bradley Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19435 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19430 for freestyle@footbag.org; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907231439.KAA19430@rac9.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Tsunami Spoke Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey hey i'm gald to hear one of the worlds top freestylers isn't so willing to 'throw out the old' and has respect for the feat of counting adds. Steve- until you CAN count adds, i really won't feel any motivation to hear your opinion about how easy it is to count adds in a new system. Sorry to be offensive, but you really do not understand. You definitely have to count adds in routines, under pressure of time and not missing a move, not watching the routine but watching the legs and teh moves, and ony them, to know what will happen to the add counters. JBoys idea at minimum affect will require everyone rewire their sub-thought process of assigning add values to what they see to the knew numbers. Also, JBoys plan would create alot of higher numbers which would mess with those of us who currently can count adds directly, adding them up as they are hit. In a worst case scenario, it would require judges to try and evaluate how "THE" a move is, instead of just saying it is "THE" and not awarding anything. an example could occur in a move like atom smasher- different styles might not commit as full a circle on both dexterities as other styles would. do they get less dexterity points then? Let the Add counters speak on what will happen to add counting. As for the old system, if a new one arises that plainly is better, easier, and more accurate, i will support it %100. but so far nothing of the sort has been proposed. Dans simplified system is just simpler. To my knowledge, it relies heavily on the subjective opinions of a small handfull of judges. To me this is not a big deal. but it will affect the quality of our production, and it could be even more controversial than the current system. The old system doesn't equate delays as being equally hard with dexterities. it weights them equal in a format of choreography. In essence, it says that there is a delay aspect of freestyle, and a dexterous aspect of freestyle, a body component, a cross body component, and an unusual component ( which is poorly named, and possibly should be lumped into the delay category somehow- though i'm not a fan of the idea ). So what it says to a competitor is 'these are the tools, demonstrate whatever mastery you choose' and then rewards the player with the greatest mastery of all aspects of style. If the issue is that dexterity ids what people most want to see mastery of, then the dexterity card should be given greater weight. Right now, delays have the greatest weight. And i agree this seems lame. But, personally, I'd rather have a judging system that asks the players for something other than what they want to do- i'd prefer a judging system that presents a direct challenge against the norm, instead of the same challenge. In finer points the system is antiquated for reasons DanK can explain best. In essence, each move of greater dificulty due to additonal dexterities in the move is only worth at best .012 points in the current system when compared to an move without the additional dexterity. ie a double around the world, or double legover only rewards the players score by about .012 more than say simply doing a differnet around the world or a different single leg dexterity move that also ends on a toe. In this manner the system also rewards most heavily moves that cover the most add elements per contact, but even so, it ends up being negligible when you cut it down to how much more you get per difficult move. To me, however, this can be a strength in the old system- it demands creativity on the part of the choreographer, and makes it difficult to use the best moves successfully. In the end, the current system rewards the player who knows the cards the best and most creatively utilizes what they know. However, if the cards don't reward difficulty enough it seems the logical solution is to simply weight difficulty more heavily. In terms of a public event, however, this has the potential to for encouraging players to emphasize difficulty over performance. For the top eight players, this is obviously not a problem. All eight finalists proved they are capable of hitting huge difficulty with few drops. But an important aspect of what the sport demands of its players is how it inspires the new players. And I prefer rewarding performance. The old system keeps things free by not rewarding the trends. i am expecting to hear alot on this... l8r vb From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 16:36:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08994 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:36:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990723070232.ELOE10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:02:32 -0700 Message-ID: <37981511.B025DAEE@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:09:05 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Glick CC: freestyle@email.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: Freestyle Digest V1 #692 References: <199fa7e0.24c8ded1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Tony Glick wrote: > Anyway, The Torch > mentioned that Tuan hit a shooting torque. What leg does the torque dex on > that move? > The same leg that does the initial pogo set. clip > op in > op out > op in > op osis. That is a lot of op's in that. Eli got it on tape, so I'm sure it will make the Christmas edition of their tape. Until then, let me reccommend the current tape - Sultans of Shred. Get in contact with either Eli Piltz or Dave Holton and order the best tape on the market. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 22:38:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09500 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:38:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web219.mail.yahoo.com (web219.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.119]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08607 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:48:41 -0700 Message-ID: <19990723194817.27650.rocketmail@web219.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [165.121.32.109] by web219.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:48:17 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:48:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Zerbe Subject: Re: [freestyle] Juggling To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org --- Dave Reid wrote: > > The only 3-bag juggling that I know of was done with > one foot. Has anyone > done juggling with both feet? > > I'm pretty sure that I saw Rick Reese do 2 bags on > each foot last year, but > I've never seen both feet in action at the same > time. > > Dave > > :))) > Hey there freestyle fanatics Three bags on one foot!! Who did you see pull that off? The only time I've even seen that attempted was this year at Worlds by Peter Irish. He was getting close but still a little ways away from keeping it consistant. The only three bag juggling that I ever seen or heard about, is done with both feet and is just a simple cascade pattern. I've seen Daryl do some insane stuff with three bags but I think it would fall under the catigory of multiplexing. What I'd like to see is three bags with some different patterns, like Mill's mess, reverse cascade, or chops. Now that would be sick! Later ZERBE From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 22:39:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09510 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:39:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web1001.mail.yahoo.com (web1001.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.91]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08567 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:47:02 -0700 Message-ID: <19990723194615.2527.rocketmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [130.212.201.167] by web1001.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:46:15 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:46:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Ahren Gehrman Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ladies and Gentelmen of the jury, Andrew McCargar wrote: >in fact I think difficulty > ratings actually add to > creativity, or atleast to my apreatiation of the > sport. Lets use the the > classic example let's say you're playing in front of > a croud and hit steping > osis to paradox blender, croud is silent, you pass > it of to the next guy who > hitts pendulum to forhead stall and the croud goes > wild. Obviously they are > apreaciating a certain amount of style, but the > difficulty of the moves is > lost on them. What does the opinion of a bunch a people who don't kick matter to us kickers when we are talking about shredding? Jack shit! Bad example, sorry. Andrew continues: > Now use me as an example, I can hit a lot of four > and five add moves, but > cann't do swirl. From my expirience as a player I > can get a sence of how > difficult it is, but something like Ripstein is > compleatly lost on me, I > don't have the point of reference to understand how > it compares to moves I > know. Like whise if in the mittle of a run I manage > to hit blurriest to > swirl I expect the blurriest to make more of an > impression even though the > swirl was harder for me. That's another reason why adds and numbers and whatever don't mean very much. You know that a swirl is 3 adds but it's harder for you than a 5 add blurriest. Should swirl get a higher difficulty rating than blurriest because of that? No. Different moves are harder for different people. I suck at swirl too. If I did a swirl in the middle of a combo, people that know my style and what I do would say, "Hey, Torch did swirl in the middle of that. He never does that. Cool!" Freestyle is about always learning new tricks and trying new combos. Not counting numbers. on with the topic: > What I am trying to say is that ranking the moves > just adds another level of > understanding to the sport. I think at least most of > us newer players (read > started playing with in the last 5 years) can > remember a time when we first > saw open level players, and I know that all I saw > was a long string of > uninteligable leg movements followed by a drop or > pass, it all looked cool, > but really I couldn't follow it. Well understanding > the add system and Job's > notation helped me to better understand how all of > those motions somehow > made moves and suddenly I could follow moves I > couldn't do and apreaciat > that paradox torque was a lot more hein than > spinning osis. For me, I understood everything better when I started trying stuff. I learned that paradox torque was harder than spinning osis when I tried linking stuff out of it. Of course spinning osis is harder for some people than p@ torque. So, once again, do adds count? No. : >but reluctantly I have to agree with Josh > Penny and many others that > the answer doesn't lie in any mathmatical system. Well, it can't lie in any other system since mathmatics is the only system that doesn't base things on opinion. : > Well personally I love to hear peoples ideas about > changing the add system > or judging system, both need to be changed and if > the ideas don't make their > way to the active players then how will anything > change. Steve once called > this forum a "free for all" which I'd have to agree > with, we're not likely > to come to an agreement here, but it is a good place > to share and collect > ideas before and after you make any new proposals. > If you don't like to read > about it, skip those posts. I was trying to say that this topic comes up to often. It should be either dealt with, or dropped. If everybody keeps fucking around with it now and then, it will be 50 years before anything is changed. : > those who hate adds and don't want moves to have to > be rated except in > competition, don't use them, but also don't keep > telling the rest of us how > we're killing creativity You're killing creativity. I used to think like you do but now I've seen the other side of the story. It's a lot better over here. : > for the rest who feel that ranking moves and > counting elements actually adds > to our understanding of freestyle keep trying to > improve the system. Understand by trying the moves. Of course, many people like the idea of a rating system, and I can't tell you what to think. My opinion is only my opinion, and I just like my opinion a lot so I'm telling it to you. Thank you for your thoughts as well. Torch From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 23 22:39:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09505 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:39:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07654 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:57:18 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01409 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Message-Id: <000001214643015601065@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:57:45 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Fri, Jul 23, 1999, 6:49:27 AM US CST Andrew McCargar wrote: >for the rest who feel that ranking moves and counting elements actually adds >to our understanding of freestyle keep trying to improve the system. I think the history of humanity speaks volumes about our basic drive and desire to theorize and classify data as a means to understand. Many of those that say "don't bother" have likely come to the conclusion that rote ranking of move difficulty is the only way to really be accurate. I tend to agree with that but see analyzation and classification as springboards for understanding what we're doing to be able to make those rote ranking decisions. Rote ranking lacks an authoritative body. Actually, any new theoretical system does, too. The IFC is a different beast today than it was when the ADD system was codified and put to use. Freestyle is art. As such, any scientific, formulated judging system fails miserably at measurement. But we still need analysis and theorization to help us grapple with it. Short term prospects for a new system look pretty grim, because there is no authoritative body to lead us. But I'd bet that the long term will eventually produce a leader that will bring some 'new' system to fruition. On a side note, I'll point out (again, sorry) that today's freestyle community perhaps has a narrow definition not only of what freestyle is alltogether, but even of what difficulty in freestyle is. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle The fossilized chickenbone from hell From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Sat Jul 24 00:48:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA09671 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:48:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from homer.tomahawktech.com ([206.191.48.232]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13378 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:41:41 -0700 Received: from dave (Administrators@localhost) by homer.tomahawktech.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00327 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:43:31 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Message-ID: <001e01bed565$3341dc40$0101010a@dave> From: "Dave Reid" To: Subject: Re: [freestyle] Juggling Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:43:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org -----Original Message----- > Three bags on one foot!! Who did you see pull that off? The only time >I've even seen that attempted was this year at Worlds by Peter Irish. >He was getting close but still a little ways away from keeping it >consistant. Now you've got me doubting myself. I thought I saw Genzu do it last year at Worlds. Maybe he was doing it with both feet... anyone? Dave From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Sat Jul 24 07:19:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA10184 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from ego.mind.net (IDENT:mail@ego.mind.net [206.99.66.9]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14438 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:14:57 -0700 Received: from 206.151.158.227 (ip122.mind.net [206.151.158.227]) by ego.mind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA31610 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:14:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3798B0E7.3868@mind.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:14:04 +0000 From: Forest Schrodt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System References: <199907212126.RAA81554@dept.english.upenn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sunil Wrote- >As for non-competitive assessment of difficulty... who gives a fuck? Matt Wrote- >And I completely agree with him. A rating system is only needed for competition, and the current system works somewhat well. I dont think people should be wasting their time figuring ways to accurately judge the difficulty of moves, each taking 5 minutes to evaluate it. As long as people are aspiring for guiltlessness and especially triplessness, which is based on the add system and are used in circle shred, we should make sure to create as accurate a system as possible. I know that most people have given up on triplessness because of inaccuracies of the ADD system and because of lack of variety of moves but I know Scot D. still goes for triplessness and many people often speak of tripless combos they can put together. Unless we completely stop using the ADD's as a means to push our shred further we should continue to look at how to better the system. If you are sick of reading about possible changes to the system, empower yourself by looking at the subject heading and deleting those that are about ADD's and quit complaining about it. Thats what I do when I get tired of hearing about it. Forest From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Sat Jul 24 07:19:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA10189 for freestyle-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:19:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from ego.mind.net (IDENT:mail@ego.mind.net [206.99.66.9]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14421 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:14:32 -0700 Received: from 206.151.158.227 (ip122.mind.net [206.151.158.227]) by ego.mind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA31560 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:14:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3798B096.51DA@mind.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:12:42 +0000 From: Forest Schrodt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] new ADD catagory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Howdy folks, I think that maybe we should make a new ADD catagory for change-of-direction. This is basically a catagory to cover what the Wolfman was talking about when he said that there should be a paradox ADD given for certain spinn moves. While many spin moves feel paradox, they can't be under the definition of paradox. This new catagory would cover that. It could also cover moves that have a double paradox sensation like paradox blur (currently worth the same as regular blur but much harder). Just some ideas, Forest From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00593 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from nccn2.nccn.net (IDENT:root@nccn2.nccn.net [209.79.220.12]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00376 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:05:09 -0700 Received: from left (tc2-171.nccn.net [209.79.221.171]) by nccn2.nccn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/*rGs* 99.07.16-) with SMTP id LAA13272 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:05:31 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01bed791$285d8580$abdd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: "footbag" Subject: [freestyle] Send In World Records Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:37:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is important to me for some reason. I think everybody who likes to see people master a move should send in their consecutive records. I was surprised to see that the ripwalk record is only twenty three and if nobody beats it I will real soon. Have any of you ever seen spinning rake to spinning rake? It's incredible. Whats the record? Two? People need to school consecutives. Peter Irish does consecutive of torque(awesome looking),eggbeater(awesome looking) and that weird symposium, THE double leg over rake thing which looks fucking bad ass in the middle of a shred. People need to school consecutive moves like Dyno? I've done a weak three! I hope somebody has hit at least six of those. Derric Scalf has hit 17 torques!!!!! Sweet! I would a liked to see that. How about spinning mirages?, Uh? That would be way cooler that spinning butterflys. I just wanna see the world records list being at least pretty accurate. And I don't think my record of three is anything special enough to be a fricking world record. ShredOnLon From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:18:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00625 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:18:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f111.hotmail.com [209.185.131.174]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA12794 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:11:22 -0700 Received: (qmail 92939 invoked by uid 0); 27 Jul 1999 06:10:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19990727061052.92938.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 144.205.91.112 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:10:49 PDT X-Originating-IP: [144.205.91.112] From: "Brendan Erskine" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Reply: Consequetive records Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:10:49 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi this is Brendan from Melbourne. Recently i saw an email about consequetive records for certain moves. Two that i noted, double around the world and atom smasher had been bettered by my fellow Melbourn freestylist Lynton Stephens. While having a shred the other day i saw him do 9 atom smashers but he has done 15. Futhermore i know that he has done 19 double around the worlds. He has also a few other records which i don't know off by hand but i'm persuading him to email to the mail list to clarify. I'm sure either Sunil Jani or Adrian Dick might know more. Keep Kick'n Brendan Erskine. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00575 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web605.yahoomail.com (web605.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.169]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA32493 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 19:26:46 -0700 Message-ID: <19990725022724.11750.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Received: from [142.177.95.83] by web605.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:27:24 EDT Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:27:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Josh Clee Subject: [freestyle] She's All That To: footbag@footbag.org, freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi.. i don't know if anybody has already asked this.. but in the movie she's all that.. Freddie Prinze Jr. plays footbag while doing a "weird" art skit thing.. and i was just wondering if anybody knows if it was really him or somone else??? just a crazy question anybody know the answer??? josh_clee@yahoo.com From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00620 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from nccn2.nccn.net (IDENT:root@nccn2.nccn.net [209.79.220.12]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00375 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:05:09 -0700 Received: from left (tc2-171.nccn.net [209.79.221.171]) by nccn2.nccn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/*rGs* 99.07.16-) with SMTP id LAA13257 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:05:26 -0700 Message-ID: <003901bed791$276ae820$abdd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: "footbag" Subject: [freestyle] New ADD Category Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:14:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello Yall, Forest wrote something awesome. >I think that maybe we should make a new ADD catagory for >change-of-direction. This is basically a catagory to cover what the >Wolfman was talking about when he said that there should be a paradox >ADD given for certain spinn moves. While many spin moves feel paradox, >they can't be under the definition of paradox. This new catagory would >cover that. >It could also cover moves that have a double paradox sensation like >paradox blur (currently worth the same as regular blur but much >harder). >Just some ideas, Forest Just some great ideas actually. I agree. Has anyone in the world ever even hit paradox blur without doing the last dex symposium? I doubt it. Paradox Atom smasher is a breeze in comparison. This new add category could possibly include more outside in dexes that feel paradox as well. But about the spinning moves I don't know? I don't think spinning whirl is a paradox feeling as gyro whirl. Do you? So I don't know if there would be an exactly SET rule that all could follow. Not there is for paradox either. I think Forest is on the right track for sure though. I think Marius should be worth 6 because its awesome. And YES adds definitely, undeniably Kill Creativity. That's why nobody in this world shreds 2 adds with 5 adds without using lots of threes and fours. Keep up the great discusion everyone. I"M LISTENING ShredOnLon From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00616 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f112.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.112]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA28116 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:23:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 54043 invoked by uid 0); 26 Jul 1999 13:22:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19990726132251.54042.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.206.120.62 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:22:50 PDT X-Originating-IP: [128.206.120.62] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] MUFF JAM!!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:22:50 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org No, its not "Grannie's Secret Recipe"... man, even coming from my mouth, that sounds gross. But hey, that is what this is all about. People coming out and getting sick with a footbag. It will be a couple of days in fun-filled Columbia, MO shredding 'til your hearts content. It all begins at the University of Missouri(aka Mizzou or MU) (or maybe at Joe's place). Then will will journey to a shred ready site for kicking, kicking, and more kicking. Next, we will drink beer(soda or gatorade if that's your bag), party, sleep, and then... more kicking. Prizes? That's the best part!! You get whatever you want!! "How can they do that?" you say? Well, let me tell you. Because YOU buy it!! Yes, that is right... This is not a tournament!! Just a bunch of stylers having a great time doing what they love. So, grab your Lavers(or Tevas), and come help us (Derrick Fogle, Leonard Griswell--I am sure he will kick for a while, Ida Fogle, Jeremiah Riely, Ian Dubman, and our guests: Frank G., Chi-town Boys--Cory C. and Mike B.--right?, James W.?, Matt L.?, etc.) send Joey Marschall out of Columbia with a bang. He is heading out on a tour. MUFF is a registered trademark of the Mizzou Footbag Fanatics. Use of it with out MUFF consent of MUFF could be a real pain in the ass for you. The phrases "...doing what they love." and "...with a bang." are not indictive of what MUFF represents, we are FOOTBAG CLUB. We apologize profusely for offending any and all females...it had to be done. Our sponsors are not worth mentioning. If you spoke to Joe or Ian at world's and were left out of the above list of expectees... sorry, but you are probably expected and EVERYONE is welcome. Direct all hate mail to Derric Fogle. Contacts are below... Oh, by the way, WI boyz especially, pay attention. Joe entered our list of phone numbers in an electronic organizer which went kapuut. So, we can't get hold of most of you. So, EVERYONE, PLEASE contact us for directions, affirmations, negations, and maybe a joke or two. This includes James Widman, Frank G., and Chicago & WI boyz. OK 3-2-1 contacts... Ian Dubman: hm: 573-442-5684 wk: 573-882-5255 You have my e-mail. Joe Marschall: hm: 573-443-7144 From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00585 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29082 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:52:55 -0700 Received: from rac1.wam.umd.edu (root@rac1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.141]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16457 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:52:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Procrastinator the VIIIth Received: from rac1.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac1.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29429 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac1.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29412 for freestyle@footbag.org; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907261452.KAA29412@rac1.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] less words... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey all, i'll be brief this time, i promise. (: Ahren- you are the man. Maybe a little pushy, but i'm all for it. Digging your words. Derrick Fogle ( Fossilized Chicken Bone from a Far Future of Understanding ) made a subtle point- that the calssification of phenomenon is merely a tool for greater understanding. And i have to say that in itself alone i see it as a hindrance to understanding. Someone said the Add system and the current judging system has to be changed. Non oen has really said why, ecept for reasons why they don't like it. And that is not a reason it HAS to change, only a reason SOME ( NOT ALL ) players would like to see it changed. Everyone is good at something the system could respect more. Life is tough. you want a hard trick combo? Somebody out there hit paradox dragonfly to opposite side double whammy to opposite foot dragonfly. difficulty levels in moves? bah humbug. Gimpys rule. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00580 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f113.hotmail.com [216.32.181.113]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA18744 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:02:06 -0700 Received: (qmail 14965 invoked by uid 0); 26 Jul 1999 04:01:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990726040131.14964.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.167.115.28 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:01:30 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.167.115.28] From: "Ryan Britt" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Dragon Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:01:30 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is probably a stupid question but here goes anyway. I wanted to know if anyone can explain to me what a "dragon" is. The footbag.org movelist describes it as a "cross body outside delay". For some reason, I can't figure out what the description means. I tried picturing the move, but couldn't. Does it look anything like a clipper? (BTW I can finally hit clippers consistently on both sides; took me forever) Thanks for your help. - Ryan Britt From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00595 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #39336) with SMTP id <0FFD006016XMB7@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@email.footbag.org; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:46:34 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:46:33 -0600 (MDT) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] worlds location In-reply-to: <19990725.004120.3550.1.ezra_kim@juno.com> To: Ezra Kim Cc: freestyle@email.footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Sun, 25 Jul 1999, Ezra Kim wrote: > i was wondering is there a location set for the worlds next year? > is there some location selection process or somethin? It's in Vancouver. BRAD From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00610 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11239 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:04:53 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA09198 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:04:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sba-ca2-05.ix.netcom.com(204.32.201.69) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009176; Sun Jul 25 13:04:13 1999 Message-ID: <003101bed6c8$12be0980$45c920cc@oemcomputer> From: "David Hillis" To: "freestyle" Subject: [freestyle] adds Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:03:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED68D.649A01E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED68D.649A01E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few times a year when there is a tournament we should be concerned = about adds. It is a good system for contests. The rest of the time = shoud be spent shredding! When you shred w/ your buddies, do you count = adds or see who can do the sickest combos? =20 M.I.A, = D. Hillis ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED68D.649A01E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
A few times a year when there is a tournament we = should be=20 concerned about adds.  It is a good system for contests.  The = rest of=20 the time shoud be spent shredding!  When you shred w/ your buddies, = do you=20 count adds or see who can do the sickest combos?
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       =20
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           =20 M.I.A,
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           =20 D. Hillis
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BED68D.649A01E0-- From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00600 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2006.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.206]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA29528 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:11:27 -0700 Message-ID: <19990724221142.21729.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.31.7.177] by web2006.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:11:42 EDT Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:11:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] The '99 WORLD'S VIDEO To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, stylers Since there has been some inquistion already, I might as well announce that Boulder Blades Productions is working on their next footbag shred video. We made a dirctor's cut for the World's tape over 90 minutes long. Don't get your hopes up yet; we're taking our time to release it- we don't even have a name for it yet. It will contain footage from World's 99, our road trip this past spring, and homeskool sessions. Unlike "Sultans of Shred", the new video will feature Peter Irish, Tuan Vu, Scott Davidson, and Greg Nelson; also a few rising stars, like Josh Penney, Ken Somolinos, and Adrian Dick. So everyone on our last tape plus these shredders and probably a few more; not bad, eh? Until then, enjoy "Sultans"; we worked hard for all of you, so hopefully everyone is enjoying it. Let me know any thoughts on the vid. Thanks to all, Eli From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00570 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from clem.mscd.edu (pmdf@clem.mscd.edu [147.153.1.3]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA19998 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 03:00:06 -0700 Received: from localhost by clem.mscd.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #39336) with SMTP id <0FFD0060164W6L@clem.mscd.edu> for freestyle@footbag.org; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:29:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:29:20 -0600 (MDT) From: KAPLAN BRADLEY M Subject: Re: [freestyle] Juggling In-reply-to: <002f01bed407$e4d386c0$0101010a@dave> To: Dave Reid Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Dave Reid wrote: > The only 3-bag juggling that I know of was done with one foot. Has anyone > done juggling with both feet? Two feet is the only way I've seen Darryl juggle 3 before. BUT 3 ON 1 FOOT!!!!! That's raw! Too Bad Brad From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:17:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00605 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:17:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from nccn2.nccn.net (IDENT:root@nccn2.nccn.net [209.79.220.12]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00386 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:05:14 -0700 Received: from left (tc2-171.nccn.net [209.79.221.171]) by nccn2.nccn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/*rGs* 99.07.16-) with SMTP id LAA13280 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:05:33 -0700 Message-ID: <003b01bed791$296a1380$abdd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: "footbag" Subject: [freestyle] Naming Combo's? Good Idea! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:02:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fiesta=Barrage to Paradon Deflection=Paradox Dragonfly to butterfly stall landing same as kicking foot 1,2,3=Whirl to paradox whirl to paradox symposium whirl The Eric Wulf=Mobius to ducking infinity to blur Back to Back=any move both sides consecutively Smash Smash=Atom Smasher Back to Back ?????=Legbeater to Blur ?????=Bluriest to Flury The Rian Mulroney=paradox symposium whirl to Mobius The Best Ever=paradox sumposium whirl to Big Apple(by Rian) The Kyle=pardox drifter to paradox whirl The Peter Irish=torque to blury whirl The Genzu=paradox legbeater to paradox torque The Scott Davidson=spinning butterfly to spinning osis to torque The Kenny Shults=paradox whirl to whirling swirl and also fiesta The Rippin' Rick Reese=blender to barfly to anything else he feels like hitting The Tuan Vu=blury whirl to paradox torque to paradox blender The Tu Vu=clipper set eggbeater to symposium whirl The Dave Holton=ripwalk to ripwalk to stepping butterfly to stepping osis The Eli Piltz=paradox drifter to blur The Eric Windsor=Spinning butterfly to spinning osis to barrage Sorry for those combos which I left out. I think a lot of these combos and triple combos need names. I named a couple, like deflection, smash smash, and 1,2,3. Please tell me what you think. Later ShredOnLon From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 08:36:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00737 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:36:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18164 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:57:31 -0700 Received: from baygate.bayarea.net (baygate.bayarea.net [204.71.212.2]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10212 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jboy@bayarea.net) Received: from gram (205-219-66-228.bayarea.net [205.219.66.228]) by baygate.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA05123 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003901bed5a1$e7f81a00$e442dbcd@gram> Reply-To: "Jboy Gran" From: "Jboy Gran" To: Subject: [freestyle] Adds Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:57:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, I can see that there are a lot of conservatives out there... I also hear a lot of hypocrisy ... "It's about the beauty of the sport" "As long as it feels good to you, who cares?" "If I wanted to talk scientifically, I would go to school" There is not one other competitive sport today that judges its competitions as lazily as we do. Who cares if we have to review the routines on video, at least the results will be accurate. As for anyone and everyone who thinks that adds in circle kicking don't matter, GIVE ME A BREAK! Remember the march of the freestylers at Worlds? There must have been at least 10 circles going on at one point, and I can swear for the ones I was in and would bet about the others, that not one person in that whole crowd guilted without passing the bag, or at least feeling guilty about it. No matter how many times anyone brings up the cliched saying "adds don't matter", they do. I agree with Frank, that when Sunil hit toe-blur to toe-blur, I was thoroughly impressed. And that is exactly my complaint. Why are we secretly clinging to this old system that still tells us this move is not as hard as the rest in Sunil's guiltless string, yet openly shunning it because "adds don't matter"? What we need is a system that will accomodate our oohs and aahs when we see hard tricks, so that TV viewers at Worlds 2050 will not be thinking to themselves "why is everyone cheering for that toe-blur; it is only worth three adds!?" Although I disagree with Ahren's standpoint on the subject, he is right about one thing. Discussing on this chaotic list, where new proposals are appearing as fast as discussions are starting about the previous ones, will get us nowhere. Maybe we should create a separate mailing list just for die-hard technical freestyle analysts. Oh wait, that's this list. Never mind. Jboy From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 18:29:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01348 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:29:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mailsorter-105-1.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.119]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22106 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:12:05 -0700 Received: from postoffice-273.iap.bryant.webtv.net (postoffice-273.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.199.91]) by mailsorter-105-1.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with ESMTP id JAA16796; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by postoffice-273.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/po.gso.24Feb98) id JAA15457; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQqZ7rJ/M1/3PrrVePDMmyP9uFwxQIUAXAqulhWYw3RvEc2omt0d9zbjxo= From: GFSmoothie@webtv.net (Greg Nelson) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:12:04 -0400 (EDT) To: josh_clee@yahoo.com (Josh Clee) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] She's All That Message-ID: <9847-379DDA54-25314@postoffice-273.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Josh Clee 's message of Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Dat was the one-and-only big add chad. GF From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 18:29:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01353 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:29:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23111 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:06:31 -0700 Received: from home.com ([24.0.42.117]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727170627.YHKH17489.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:06:27 -0700 Message-ID: <379DE75B.3D49600B@home.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:07:28 -0700 From: Jared Clorfeine Reply-To: gapaclor@home.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Anyone in San Diego? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey, I just moved back here to San Diego. I remember a few people at westerns were from here. If anyone wants to play with me, give me a call or e-mail me (619) 447-2538. Alos, if anybody knows someone who wouldn't be on this list, but kicks around here, could you help me out with their phone numbers or something. Playing with yourself is a lot of fun, sure, but it gets old pretty quick. Please help me. Jared From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 18:29:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01343 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:29:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f149.hotmail.com [216.32.181.149]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21060 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:08:46 -0700 Received: (qmail 49525 invoked by uid 0); 27 Jul 1999 15:08:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19990727150816.49524.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.151.225.201 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:08:16 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.151.225.201] From: "Danny Cardonne" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Send In World Records Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:08:16 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org How about posting on a web page on the freestyle page with all the records on it, so we wouldn't have to ask all the time for someone who have the update list...how about it? Steve...? Danny From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 18:49:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01571 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:49:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24358 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:00:19 -0700 Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05148 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:00:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Bradley Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19743 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19739 for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907271800.OAA19739@rac10.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] study the archives Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org JBoy, its cool to hear your thoughts. you might want to read more archives. The point most people are trying to make about adds and style is that its the idea of adds that needs to be abolished, not the preservation of a defunct classification of attributes. A person who thinks a toe blur shouldn't be hit when it looks cool in a combo is a person more worried about classifications than about style. Classify them as you like. Conservative? Compete and judge at worlds. I've been trying to figure out how to improve the system for 6 years now, and it's not a simple matter of redefinition. Name any sport that utilizes judges and you will be naming a sport with judging controversies, and continual attempts to redefine the methodologies of their system. Lazy? How so? Because we say a change won't make a difference? read the archives. these thoughts have been around a long time. Some of the same people you have labeled conservative or lazy were making the same arguments as you years ago. And they haven't honestly changed their minds. Lets make it simple- if anyone thinks anyone who didn't earn the place they got at the worlds championships because of a flaw in the judging system, speak up and show me why the system failed. I entered the numbers, i saw he results as they developed. I couldn't see the routines, but i asked around and the people i spoke to saw what the judges saw. Did anyone who competed at worlds avoid moves because they weren't being given enough adds or add componenets for those moves? There was one controversy in the results, and i would prefer to not go into detail. BUT, this was a result of lazy competitors. When the time came, freestylers named as judges did not show up for what they were assigned. Last minute adjustments were made, and one panel of one portion of judges had questionable evaluations, and obvious relative inexperience This is completely subjective, my opinion, and I will not go into detail on it, and I strongly encourage any who know about it to not to bring up details either. My point is a system of judging is only as good as the ability and responsibility of its judges, in this case, the players. Ultimately, I agree. Lets set up a more strict dialogue server. Where the DanK can remove the curtains from around his brainchild to any who wish to discuss a new era of judged freestyle. And let the artists discuss the art. l8r vince From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:22:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01733 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:22:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Market.NET (Market.NET [140.174.206.2]) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01730 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:22:41 -0700 Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25632 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:36:30 -0700 Received: from [216.111.252.227] (dhcp-216-111-252-227 [216.111.252.227]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23541 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907271800.OAA19739@rac10.wam.umd.edu> References: <199907271800.OAA19739@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:38:56 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] study the archives Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:00 PM -0400 7/27/99, Vince Bradley wrote: >JBoy, its cool to hear your thoughts. you might want to read more archives. Jboy's been reading the freestyle list as long as anyone, and I think it's pretty clear he understands the issues. In fact, I can't believe how little positive response he got from his posting -- it was an honest attempt to better quantify difficulty and I think he is very close to the mark. Everybody who thinks the add system is fine as it is can just bow out of the conversation. I think there's honor in having an honest discussion of Jboy's proposal. So far, nobody has actually commented on the *meat* of the proposal. I think a couple people said they believed the list he generated at the end was actually pretty much right (in terms of relative difficulties of various moves). And what I think is *hilarious* is how much we deep-end on discussions of places where the current add system doesn't handle a class of move (e.g., paradox), yet it seems a lot of the same participants in those conversations refuse to consider a system that clearly accounts for those things. >The point most people are trying to make about adds and style is that >its the idea of adds that needs to be abolished, not the preservation of >a defunct classification of attributes. Yeah but they *won't* be abolished. So, let's talk constructively about the actual idea Jboy has instead of just going back to that same ultra-unrealistic point. >A person who thinks a toe blur shouldn't be hit when it looks cool in a combo >is a person more worried about classifications than about style. Your value judgments really don't change reality. >Conservative? Yes, in fact, I'd say you are ultra-conservative when it comes to this stuff. >Compete and judge at worlds. He has competed and judged quite a bit. In fact, he volunteered and sat on the judging panel at Worlds this year! I think of all the people on this list, Jboy is one of the 5 people who *really* understand the current freestyle judging system. I personally would trust him to judge any card. I only bring this up as a way to bolster the fact that his proposal is not coming from someone who doesn't know the current system. I don't want to make this a personal discussion of Jboy since that could degenerate into a conversation that is against list policy. (Remember, it is not allowed to attack an individual at a personal level on this list. It's certainly fine to refute their arguments and question their knowledge, so, as of this point, the conversation is perfectly fine.) >I've been trying to figure out how to improve the system for 6 years now, >and it's not a simple matter of redefinition. You clearly haven't given Jboy's proposal enough consideration. >Name any sport that >utilizes judges and you will be naming a sport with judging controversies, >and continual attempts to redefine the methodologies of their system. So why resist Jboy's attempt to help quantify difficulty? >read the archives. these thoughts have been around a long time. Some of the >same people you have labeled conservative or lazy were making the >same arguments >as you years ago. > >And they haven't honestly changed their minds. Right, because they don't understand the direction Jboy is going in his proposal, in my opinion, so they are rejecting it out of hand. Please actually take the time to ANALYZE his proposal and give USEFUL feedback instead of just conservatively rejecting his proposal out of hand. You have yet to actually say that there is some particular technical issue with his proposal. I don't think it's perfect as is, but for goodness' sake, give it a few minutes of your time. >Lets make it simple- if anyone thinks anyone who didn't earn the place they >got at the worlds championships because of a flaw in the judging system, >speak up and show me why the system failed. I've said this myself a hundred times. That's not the point. In fact, I would say Jboy's proposal is *much less important* for Worlds judging than it is for circle-shredding, skooling, and casual freestyle. Despite what all you vocal conservatives keep saying, people *care* about this stuff. People *want* a way to understand the moves. Quantification is a good thing, especially in such a technical sport. Jboy's proposal doesn't just quantify, it gives a basis for difficulty -- why one move is harder than the other. Having a codified system to explain difficulty is critical. Few sports as technical as this have as tough a time fitting certain classes of moves into their system. We need to update our system to represent the types of moves players are hitting today that they weren't hitting many years ago when Reed and Kenny (and whoever else?) came up with the Holy Add System. (5 categories, my ass.) >Ultimately, I agree. Lets set up a more strict dialogue server. >Where the DanK can remove the curtains from around his brainchild >to any who wish to discuss a new era of judged freestyle. > >And let the artists discuss the art. If only it were a pure art. But it's not. This is a standard dichotemy seen in lots of black-art groups. The old-skool guardians of a deeply-rooted and slowly-propagated aesthetic, and the new-skool purely technical, less aesthetically-affected masses who enter apprenticeship and learn and soon move the aesthetic itself. In either case, a fix to the lame quantification system we already have can't HURT. Everyone kind of agrees our add system fails to represent windows, plants, and complicated dexterities. Jboy's system comes very close to hitting the nail on the head. Tell me why it doesn't and stop arguing the conservative party line that we don't need to change the system. Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:25:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01743 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:25:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from ux4.isu.edu (mta@ux4.isu.edu [134.50.250.16]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24730 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:14:06 -0700 Received: from isu.edu ([134.50.103.15]) by ux4.isu.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA52A5; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:14:07 -0600 Message-ID: <379DF7F9.C083397F@isu.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:18:33 -0600 From: Bob Green X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gapaclor@home.com, "'freestyle'" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Anyone in San Diego? References: <379DE75B.3D49600B@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Jared Clorfeine wrote: > Playing with yourself is a lot of fun, sure, > but it gets old pretty quick. Please help me. Sorry to hear about that. A lot of people have that problem, but with time and therapy you will be able to cope. Bob From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:26:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01753 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:26:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24797 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:15:09 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA26394 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:15:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [freestyle] MUFF JAM!!! Message-Id: <000001222933015944144@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:15:44 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Mon, Jul 26, 1999, 8:22:50 AM US CST Ian Dubman wrote: >EVERYONE is welcome. Direct all hate mail to Derric Fogle. Contacts are ALL KICKERS! - Yes, you should all come to see Ian get his hot, sweaty butt swatted by the infamous fossilized chicken-bone paddle once for every piece of hate mail I get. And I wanna spank him good so please, hurry up with all that hate mail! PS - who is it that has that "Chicken Strut" music I was doing my clown act to? I must get that music. Band and CD title, please?!? ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle Official guardian of the 1999 Fossilized Chicken Bone Extravaganza I'm in MUFF (The club). If you're gonna be in anything, wouldn't you rather be in the MUFF? From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:26:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01763 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:26:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25484 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:31:54 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727183153.UNID10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:31:53 -0700 Message-ID: <379DFBD9.47B14F33@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:35:05 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: footbag Subject: Re: [freestyle] Send In World Records References: <003a01bed791$285d8580$abdd4fd1@left> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Lon Smith wrote: > > This is important to me for some reason. I think everybody who likes to see > people master a move should send in their consecutive records. Yes. This topic comes up a lot. Let's end it once and for all with an 'official' list that is maintained somewhere. See my previos post. I would love to have a good up to date list. Everyone, send your records to Lon and if you have video proof, let me know derric@dallasfootbag.org > Have any of you ever seen spinning rake to spinning rake? It's > incredible. How about pixie x-bdy rake to pixie x-bdy rake? That is another cool one. Maybe Damon and friends can bust out a few of those. > People need to school consecutive moves like Dyno? I've done a weak > three! I have also only done three. I'm going to shred today in the Texas heat and try for at least 5. I'll let you know. > I just wanna see the world records list being at least pretty accurate. Cool deal. Get it together and I'll post it. > How about spinning mirages?, Uh? That would be way cooler that spinning > butterflys. On a side note here, I notice that you do a lot of spinning from toe. That is unusual. Which direction do you spin? Shred on, Lon! -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:26:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01774 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:26:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24900 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:17:09 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727181701.UINN10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:17:01 -0700 Message-ID: <379DF85D.21FBDE9D@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:20:13 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Cardonne CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Send In World Records References: <19990727150816.49524.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Danny Cardonne wrote: > > How about posting on a web page on the freestyle page with all the records > on it, so we wouldn't have to ask all the time for someone who have the > update list...how about it? Steve...? If someone will go about getting a list all worked out - like Lon has been doing - I'll post it on www.dallasfootbag.org. And, if we could get video proof of the records, I'll post those too. That way, there can be no doubt. Also, for all of the record holders... it would be nice if you could give some pointers on the moves that you have mastered so that I can post those as well. IF you have been wondering what happened to dallasfootbag.org, you aren't alone. Does anyone know what gridlock is? Dallasfootbag is still out there, you just need to put the www in front of the address (as in www.dallasfootbag.org) At worlds, I was talking a lot about getting some tutorials together. This has turned out to be a much larger project than I had anticipated. So far, I have advice looking good for clippers and torques. Though things aren't up and running completely (most of the links are dead at the moment), I would appreciate it if you guys would check it out and give me feedback. These are the types of tutorials that I want to make for as many moves as possible - so, if you know how to hit a move completely and absolutely, give me as detailed of advice as you can. Thanks. http://www.dallasfootbag.org/tutorials/the_clipper_delay.html http://www.dallasfootbag.org/tutorials/the_torque.html -Derric Dallas Footbag Club From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:26:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01779 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:26:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25182 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:24:01 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727182356.UKPZ10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:23:56 -0700 Message-ID: <379DF9FC.FFFCF80D@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:27:08 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: footbag Subject: Re: [freestyle] Naming Combo's? Good Idea! References: <003b01bed791$296a1380$abdd4fd1@left> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I like the idea of naming combos. You can see that the sport is evolving in a way that makes strings longer and individual moves blur together. If you name the cooler looking combos, perhaps that would be a good way of differentiating between different styles of play. Then again, maybe I'm just talking out my ass... You can't forget 'torsion' = torque > pdx torque. Lon Smith wrote: > > Fiesta=Barrage to Paradon > Deflection=Paradox Dragonfly to butterfly stall landing same as kicking foot > 1,2,3=Whirl to paradox whirl to paradox symposium whirl > The Eric Wulf=Mobius to ducking infinity to blur > Back to Back=any move both sides consecutively > Smash Smash=Atom Smasher Back to Back > The Genzu=paradox legbeater to paradox torque Isn't the Genzu consecutive pdx torques? -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:42:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01938 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:42:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25853 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:41:36 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727184132.UQFX10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:41:32 -0700 Message-ID: <379DFE1C.AB164B63@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:44:44 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Dragon References: <19990726040131.14964.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ryan Britt wrote: > > I wanted to know > if anyone can explain to me what a "dragon" is. The footbag.org movelist > describes it as a "cross body outside delay". Just as a clipper is a cross body inside delay, a dragon is a cross body outside delay. Catch the bag on an outside delay and wrap it around until you are in the cross body position (until you are looking at it over the OTHER shoulder). That is a dragon stall. Now try from clipper to dragon and back to clipper. Or, ask Jon Schneider - the 'Dragonslayer'. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 19:45:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01953 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:45:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from nccn2.nccn.net (IDENT:root@nccn2.nccn.net [209.79.220.12]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26113 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:49:01 -0700 Received: from left (tc2-140.nccn.net [209.79.221.140]) by nccn2.nccn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/*rGs* 99.07.16-) with SMTP id LAA16555 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:49:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01bed860$6a1873c0$8cdd4fd1@left> From: "Lon Smith" To: "footbag" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:45:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello Discusionists, Jboy wrote: >Well, I can see that there are a lot of conservatives out there... >I also hear a lot of hypocrisy ... "It's about the beauty of the >sport" "As long as it feels good to you, who cares?" "If I wanted to talk >scientifically, I would go to school" There is not one other competitive >sport today that judges its competitions as lazily as we do. Who cares if >we have to review the routines on video, at least the results will be >accurate. I agree that reviewing routines on video is hardly work. It sounds pretty fun to me and it would be more accurate, that's great! >As for anyone and everyone who thinks that adds in circle kicking don't >matter, GIVE ME A BREAK! Remember the march of the freestylers at >Worlds? There must have been at least 10 circles going on at one point, and >I can swear for the ones I was in and would bet about the others, that not >one person in that whole crowd guilted without passing the bag, or at least >feeling guilty about it. No matter how many times anyone brings up the >cliched saying "adds don't matter", they do. No shit. I can't believe the number of people who strive so hard to go guiltless but don't care how many adds moves are worth. You know Rake is a pretty damn cool move and before it was worth three none of you no guilt shredders could hit that move. I always could, but that's just because I don't restrict the variety and creativity of moves that I allow myself. I was real happy to hear it became three adds so that people could learn how to hit a nice slow non-osis move in a guiltless players shred. >I agree with Frank, that when Sunil hit toe-blur to toe-blur, I was >thoroughly impressed. And that is exactly my complaint. Why are we >secretly clinging to this old system that still tells us this move is not as >hard as the rest in Sunil's guiltless string, yet openly shunning it because >"adds don't matter"? What we need is a system that will accomodate our oohs >and aahs when we see hard tricks, so that TV viewers at Worlds 2050 will not >be thinking to themselves "why is everyone cheering for that toe-blur; it is >only worth three adds!?" We totally need a system that will accomodate our oohs and aahs. I want to see more people hitting things like spinning pendulum to barfly swirl to pick up to atom smasher, but the way people shut themselves out from two adds like pick up and crowd pleasers like spinning pendulum I'll never get to see anyone hit that stuff. >Although I disagree with Ahren's standpoint on the subject, he is right >about one thing. Discussing on this chaotic list, where new proposals are >appearing as fast as discussions are starting about the previous ones, will >get us nowhere. Maybe we should create a separate mailing list just for >die-hard technical freestyle analysts. Oh wait, that's this list. >Never mind. Damn strait that's what this list is about; but I still don't think it is being used for its best purpose which is just talking about what people are hitting and new move ideas,as well as just spreading the word when you find a cool combo that's really easy. I want to hear when someone hits a combo that I could hit on my first try and that looks cool. How about gyro mirage to legy style legbeater? It's not that hard I swear. ShredOnLawnLON From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 20:01:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02003 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:01:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26529 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:12:20 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727191215.UYZW10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:12:15 -0700 Message-ID: <379E054E.8A3B497B@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:15:26 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds References: <003901bed5a1$e7f81a00$e442dbcd@gram> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Well, I promised some people that I would write something stupid when I got a chance - here's my chance. This will probably be long, so if you don't care to read a lot more about this whole difficulty thing, erase this message now. Jboy Gran wrote: > > Well, I can see that there are a lot of conservatives out there... > I also hear a lot of hypocrisy ... Easy easy Jboy. The great thing about the footbag community is how we all get along. Let's not go into how all of this is "stupid s#!+" or how people are hypocrites or any of that stuff. Think about it... we are talking about Hacky Sack :) The hypocrisy in question (I'm assuming that I know what you are talking about here) involves those people who play guiltless but don't care about the difficulty of a move. That IS a bit wierd. "I don't care about the add value as long as it is three or more", right? > Who cares if > we have to review the routines on video, at least the results will be > accurate. This is the point... Difficulty and add ratios and stuff like that play a very minor role in determining the outcome of a final score. I'll leave it up to Derrick F. to do the math, but I do know that in most cases it is insignificant. Video review probably isn't an option with today's freestyle competition system. I liked having the results right away at Worlds this year (great job Vince, Steve, judges and others). If the number of adds made a whole lot of difference, I think that more people would be taking this thread seriously. But, with the judging system we have now, adds don't matter a lot. Variety is the important thing. Also, presentation judges do take into account the difficulty of combos and both sides and stuff like that. The add counter is just one judge of many. Now, about the 45 second shred contest... This competition is ALL ABOUT ADDS! They do video review. Why wouldn't they want a more accurate system? Sunil was hitting toe blurs and atom smashers, but they weren't counting as much as ripwalks and torques. The injustice of the add system is really shown in this competition. > What we need is a system that will accomodate our oohs > and aahs when we see hard tricks, so that TV viewers at Worlds 2050 will not > be thinking to themselves "why is everyone cheering for that toe-blur; it is > only worth three adds!?" Assuming that TV viewers know what a toe blur is, they would know how hard it is regardless of its add value. You will still impress the average viewer with pendulums and fewer drops. You've got to love the ignorant spectators... My point here is that adds really don't matter that much in current freestyle competition. But, I really like the 45 second shred contest. This contest WOULD benefit from a more accurate difficulty rating system. For those of you who don't like hearing about finding a better way to determine difficulty, don't read these posts. And, whatever you do, don't respond to them saying how stupid this is. Freestyle is evolving and those who are truly 'pushing the envelope' are looking for ways to improve it - through accurate determination of difficulty, theory, and play. I love reading all of this 'crap' about DLS and MADDs. It makes me think. The more I think about the game/sport, the closer I get to understanding why I like to have a beanbag go straight up and down while I contort my body in ways that make it difficult for the bag to continue on its path. I think that Jboy was on to something with his theory... one thing that needs to be remembered is this: the bag does go straight up and down. We bend our bodies around that path. With this perspective, it seems obvious that any accurate rating system would have to involve a 'dexterity line' that extends from the bag. Cross that line and you have run the risk of hitting the bag. Cross it twice and you have run even more of a risk. Set the bag higher and circle with your head, spin, jump, whatever... all of this is done to make it more difficult for you to get around the bag without distubing its path. Anyone want to incorporate this into a grand unified freestyle theory? If not, don't rag on those of us who do... -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 20:02:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02013 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:02:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26574 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:14:07 -0700 Received: from rac1.wam.umd.edu (root@rac1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.141]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26666 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:13:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Bradley Received: from rac1.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac1.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00340 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac1.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00336 for freestyle@footbag.org; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907271913.PAA00336@rac1.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] that spinny rakey thing Lon mentionedi Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org i'm guessing the move mentioned was stomping double-leg-overs. l8r- vince From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 20:33:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02161 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:33:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27001 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:32:28 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727193227.VFNN10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:32:27 -0700 Message-ID: <379E0A09.937CF63F@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:35:37 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lon Smith CC: footbag Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds References: <000a01bed860$6a1873c0$8cdd4fd1@left> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Lon Smith wrote: > > Hello Discusionists, > > How about gyro mirage to legy style legbeater? It's not that hard I swear. Help me with leggy... I can hit legbeater, but only hippie. I can't get that leggy set. Any advice? How about merkons (spinning legover)? That is something you don't see enough. I have linked merkon to legbeater, and merkon to pixie osis (that goes back and forth if you think about it - you want to name that combo?). I like the spinning moves that end on toe - gyro mirage, merkon, gyro legover, etc. You don't see too many of them because they are harder than their 4 add counterparts - spinning butterfly and spinning osis. Keep the toes alive! On a side note, has anyone ever stopped and looked at toe:clipper ratios? It is fun to count and see just how many toes people do. Sunil does a majority of toe moves while Eli 'paradox' Piltz does almost all clipper delays... just another thing to watch for the next time you are watching a shred tape. Everyone has their own style and it really shows when you start counting the toes. Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 20:49:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02274 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:49:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27245 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:48:58 -0700 Received: from [216.111.252.227] (dhcp-216-111-252-227 [216.111.252.227]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29934; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <379E054E.8A3B497B@dallasfootbag.org> References: <003901bed5a1$e7f81a00$e442dbcd@gram> <379E054E.8A3B497B@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:51:04 -0700 To: Derric Scalf From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] Adds Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:15 PM -0500 7/27/99, Derric Scalf wrote: >Well, I promised some people that I would write something stupid when I >got a chance - here's my chance. Dude, great message. Thanks for chiming in. >The hypocrisy in question (I'm assuming that I know what you are talking >about here) involves those people who play guiltless but don't care >about the difficulty of a move. That IS a bit wierd. "I don't care >about the add value as long as it is three or more", right? Exactly. >This is the point... Difficulty and add ratios and stuff like that play >a very minor role in determining the outcome of a final score. Right. >I think that Jboy was on to something with his theory... one thing that >needs to be remembered is this: > >the bag does go straight up and down. We bend our bodies around that >path. *Exactly*. Thanks for actually commenting on the theory itself. >With this perspective, it seems obvious that any accurate rating system >would have to involve a 'dexterity line' that extends from the bag. >Cross that line and you have run the risk of hitting the bag. Great ideas always seem obvious after they're articulated. :-) Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 21:05:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02305 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:05:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web1004.mail.yahoo.com (web1004.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.94]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27835 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:11:35 -0700 Message-ID: <19990727201134.6245.rocketmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [130.212.201.153] by web1004.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:11:34 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:11:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Ahren Gehrman Subject: [freestyle] Torch's final post on adds. Please read! To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Sup, yall? I'm posting on the same subject again, but I can't help myself. Vince said: > >The point most people are trying to make about adds > and style is that > >its the idea of adds that needs to be abolished, > not the preservation of > >a defunct classification of attributes. and Steve replied: > Yeah but they *won't* be abolished. So, let's talk > constructively > about the actual idea Jboy has instead of just going > back to that > same ultra-unrealistic point. I'm going to go back to that "same ultra-unrealistic point" that I've been talking about. Personaly, I believe that it's up to the individual freestyler to decide if adds or any other difficulty rating matters to them. 50% of the people who get involved with footbag are right brained and the other 50% are left brained. That means that there are just as many people who think the art of footbag is more important than living up to whatever the standard of difficulty is. They don't care about numbers. They care about how phat it is. I don't mind if whoever wants to argue about rating systems argues about it. But personaly, I don't give a shit. A lot of other people don't care either, but it's been pounded into our heads since most of us have started, that if you do a move that hasn't been given a high enough rating in the middle of a string, you will be frowned upon. We are in a mental prison people. Imaging for one moment that you don't know what adds are. If you see somebody doing a clipper stall in the middle of a bunch of phat moves, you would still think that that was a pretty weak thing to do. But not because it was a two add, but because it was a bail move. That person isn't pushing themselves. We don't need a number system to tell us what is acceptable and what is not. We just need to open our minds and let go of what weve been taught for years and years. Steve continues: > If only it were a pure art. But it's not. Bullshit! This can be the purest art form imaginable. Fuck adds. I'm done with them. I'm don't give a shit about any other system either. It will just limit people in a different way. Whoever wants to continue on with this discussion can if they want to, but this is my last post. To everybody who feels like I do, please let me know. Let's make this a pure art form like it should be and can be. Thank you for listening. By the way, for you add counters out there, is Tuan's shooting torque 6, 7 or 8 adds. Figure that one out. Torch From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 21:07:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02328 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:07:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27940 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:18:50 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA17322 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:18:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [freestyle] study the archives Message-Id: <000001223843015951577@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:19:37 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999, 1:38:56 PM US CST Steve Goldberg wrote: >discussion of Jboy's proposal. So far, nobody has actually commented >on the *meat* of the proposal. I think a couple people said they This, by far, is the most fascinating thread I've seen on this list. I'm about to flap my wings so much that you'd think this chicken thinks it could fly. If you're not interested, tune out now. First, the reason I haven't commented on the "MEAT" of JBoy's prop is because I'm a vegetarian ;) Actually I simply haven't had the opportunity to put in a shred session with his proposal in mind. Once I actually do a shred session and mentally apply it to what I'm doing, I'll be in a much better position to comment about it specifically. Now on to the meta-discussion. For the past 2+ years, all I've heard on this list is ADDS this, ADDS that, ADD Nauseum. To see the freestyle community collectively waking up from this trance so suddenly is refreshing! Especially for someone who has always been rather critical of the whole "Big Add" phenomenon, I state again: Very Refreshing. Some very strong arguments have been made in this new conciousness: 1) We play for ourselves. (individualists are attracted to footbag) A) We shouldn't have to define or explain what we do to outsiders B) You learn whats going on by being here and doing this as an insider C) We're all capable of respecing each other's accomplishments without a yardstick 2) No 'system' can ever be accurate 3) What we've got is "good enough" for competition We can discard anything but item #1 because thats what it all centers on. Do we, or don't we, play for ourselves? (yes, that's a rhetorical question) The simple answer is that if what we do is incredible enough, we will attract attention. We don't need difficulty definitions, we don't need complicated (or simple) judging systems, we need people who consistently push themselves to the limit. The realistic answer is "dream on". If anyone ever thinks freestyle should be an olympic sport, or televised to any degree, or backed and funded by big money, there has to be rules. There has to be winners and losers. And the controversy you hear about any other presentation competition judging is the inevitable ancillary information to the glorification of the winners and the dissing of the losers. Do we play for ourselves or do we want a wider audience? Pleasing the freestyle community means I shred at 3+ add level (regardless of whether or not everyone says adds are meaningless). I also know how to get and please a wider audience: Go kick in the most visible place in town and do lots of plain kicks, my chicken clown act, I do lots of fliers, pendulums, simple toe delays, just kick-dance to the music. The two audiences provide different challenges. So what do we do?!? BOTH. You may think, believe, and live the idea that we kick solely for ourselves and if we focus on what we can push ourselves for the rest will come magically somehow. I'll state now that I AGREE with this. But you also consistently fail to point out how coming up with a better measurement system can possibly harm you. It won't. It might even benefit you, believe it or not. You may think, believe, and live the idea that we've just GOT to come up with a better system or footbag itself is destined for extinction. There is an urgency for recognition from outside sources, and a need to give them some tools to understand what is so fantastic about what we are doing. It seems important that everyone contribute to this cause. Well, thats not the case and it ain't gonna happen. If you were against the creation of some toxic waste dump, what should be done to stop it? Civil disobedience? Lobbying of legal representatives? Lawsuits? Guerilla warfare? If you really want to change the outcome you have to use ALL of these activities. To believe in your tactic above all others and criticize the ones that use a different tactic is devisive and shows that you are more interested in control than outcome. And you will be shooting yourself in the torque... er... foot. Those of you who play for yourselves and your ego only, great! Do it. But please cooperate with those who want to come up with some kind of measurement system for what you do. The reality is that thier work may do more for your ego in the long run than your own efforts can. Those of you who want to come up with a better measuring stick, great! Do it. But don't dare get in the way of those insane individuals you are trying to measure. To fail thier efforts is to fail yourself. The reason our current judging system succeeds to the extent it does is due to sheer volume. For any given kicker, you have at least 10 people evaluating that kicker. There are more judges than kickers in a pool. With that sheer volume of input - and I don't care what specifically all or any one of them is judging - you are going to get some reasonable sum as an output. Inaccuracies and dissentions are overwhelmed by the sheer volume of other input. As I said before, I haven't done a shred session since being introduced to the DLS stuff. That doesn't mean I haven't kicked. It also doesn't mean I haven't freestyled. It just means that I can freestyle without doing dexterities. And that's the criticism I level at the DLS - that it is a very dexterity- centric measurement tool. It utterly fails to measure the difficulty of kicking movements. It completely misses the difficulty in my chicken-bone clown act. It measures what is the current vogue of shredding - dexterity difficulty. What the current 5-part ADD system measures is interaction with the footbag. It seems to me that the failings of the system stem from the fact that what is difficult in today's terms has less and less to do with direct interaction with the footbag and more to do with the difficulty of changing body momentum and balancing and less to do with the direct interaction with the footbag. In that sense, the DLS is still just mapping non-interactive difficulties onto interactions much like we map other concepts onto the current cards. Seeing from the other angle, however, I place a great deal of importance on keeping the measurement of footbag difficulty tied directly to interactions with the footbag. Having general difficulty categories like "Power" and "Speed" and "Balance" could easily measure the comparative difficulty of what we do, but it would completely lose its tie to the footbag. I hate that thought. If you could survey the freestyle community on attitudes, what would you ask them? I'll put together a survey CGI of 10 questions or less. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle The fossilized chicken that says, "I think I can fly! I think I can fly!" PS: don't forget that hate mail! I want to spank Ian with my fossilized chicken bone! All hate mail counts, even those totally unrelated to The MUFF or The MUFF Jam. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 21:30:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02367 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:30:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28496 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:36:24 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990727203622.WARJ10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:36:22 -0700 Message-ID: <379E1994.D554B8A9@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:41:56 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ahren Gehrman CC: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Torch's final post on adds. Please read! References: <19990727201134.6245.rocketmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ahren Gehrman wrote: > > By the way, for you add counters out there, is Tuan's shooting torque > 6, 7 or 8 adds. Figure that one out. 7. You get three dexterities, one pdx (on the second dex), one spin, one cross body, and a delay. or, in Job's notation, clip > op in [dex] > op out [dex][pdx] > op in [dex] > (back) spin [bdy] > op clip [del][xbdy] From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Tue Jul 27 21:48:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02401 for freestyle-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:48:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from vortex.more.net (vortex.more.net [198.209.253.70]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28807 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:47:18 -0700 Received: from mlerf.org (mail.mlerf.org [207.160.128.29]) by vortex.more.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA22465 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:47:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [freestyle] Torch's final post on adds. Please read! Message-Id: <000001223983015953285@mlerf.org> From: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:48:04 -0500 Organization: MLERF X-Mailer: CommuniGate 3.1 Reply-To: dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999, 3:11:34 PM US CST Ahren Gehrman wrote: >you would still think that that was a pretty weak thing to do. But not >because it was a two add, but because it was a bail move. That person >isn't pushing themselves. We don't need a number system to tell us No, it wasn't. That 'simple' clipper stall was a very beautifully choreographed part of the kicker's style. To them, you're just an ignorant spectator and they don't give a fuck about what you think is difficult. ______________________________________ Derrick Fogle From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 28 08:40:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02970 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:40:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from diana.sfsu.edu (root@diana.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.239]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01057 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:19:03 -0700 Received: from default (madmax-130.sfsu.edu [130.212.201.130]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24564 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990727201204.007e6840@sfsu.edu> X-Sender: tuhuge@sfsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:12:04 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Tu Vu Subject: [freestyle] Re: adds In-Reply-To: <000001223983015953285@mlerf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org c'mon guys what's the matter?? it's only hacky sack. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 28 08:40:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02980 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:40:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f315.hotmail.com [209.185.131.19]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01226 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:27:42 -0700 Received: (qmail 74085 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jul 1999 03:27:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19990728032711.74084.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 153.36.55.181 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:27:10 PDT X-Originating-IP: [153.36.55.181] From: "alex ibardaloza" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Send In World Records Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 03:27:10 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org W'sup, Lon Smith wrote: > > How about spinning mirages?, Uh? That would be way cooler that spinning > > butterflys. To which Derric replied: >On a side note here, I notice that you do a lot of spinning from toe. >That is unusual. Which direction do you spin? Shred on, Lon! To which I'll add: I do a toe set spinning mirage also, setting off the right and spinning away from the bag, dex with left leg and catch back on the set foot. I've hit three in a row... then I fell. Variations-toe spinning dragon fly, toe spinning torque. I'm fascinated to know what Lon's looks like. Later, ZEKE From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 28 08:40:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02975 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:40:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2006.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.206]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29588 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:31:25 -0700 Message-ID: <19990727213037.4568.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.31.9.172] by web2006.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:30:37 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:30:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Eli Piltz Subject: [freestyle] Colorado Shred Symposium 2000 To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Shredders, The Boulder Blades are conspiring to host the first of many Colorado Shred Symposium on January 29-30, 2000 in Boulder, CO (a prize money event). The symposium will consist of two days of shredding with a shred contest. Shred contest- $25 entrance fee. We will have two rounds (one per day). Your highest score of the two rounds will be your score. Prize money will be awarded for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places. -Scoring system: adds + (unique guiltless moves x add ratio) = your score. YOU DON'T HAVE TO ENTER TO COME KICK. We want to hear from everyone who is interested, so we can have an idea of the size. On Behalf of the state of Colorado, Thanks. 'Intergalactic' Eli Piltz Dave 'Highlander' Holton Red 'Shred' Husted Rippin' Rick Reese Daryl 'Genzu' Genz Jonathan Schneider Paul Mestas Brad Kaplan From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 28 17:50:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03661 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:50:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f256.hotmail.com [209.185.130.172]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12940 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:30:18 -0700 Received: (qmail 38593 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jul 1999 15:30:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990728153014.38592.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 139.67.16.12 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:30:13 PDT X-Originating-IP: [139.67.16.12] From: "Frank Gutowski" To: tuhuge@sfsu.edu, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] Re: adds Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:30:13 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I'm feeling ya Tu ... Do any of you remember learning how to kick for the first time?, just getting both your inside kicks down. Now tell me if you think hackin is quantifiable or art? Now think of how it felt to hit four four back to back for the first time, for me it wasn't quantifiable(I know that is a paradox) it was that same feeling as getting my two inside kicks down - sublime nirvana (I'm not fucking talking about the bands either). Don't forget what the sport actually is, FUN. Frank >From: Tu Vu >To: freestyle@footbag.org >Subject: [freestyle] Re: adds >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:12:04 -0700 > >c'mon guys what's the matter?? > > > > > >it's only hacky sack. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 28 17:49:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03654 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:49:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from saba.wwa.com (saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12151 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:59:27 -0700 Received: from [209.107.90.78] (209-107-90-078.chicago.verio.net [209.107.90.78]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA17215; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:58:43 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <379DF85D.21FBDE9D@dallasfootbag.org> References: <19990727150816.49524.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:06:08 -0600 To: Derric Scalf , Danny Cardonne From: "Scott Davidson" Subject: Re: [freestyle] Send In World Records Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi Derric and all! >If someone will go about getting a list all worked out - like Lon has >been doing - I'll post it on www.dallasfootbag.org. And, if we could >get video proof of the records, I'll post those too. I'll be videotaping whenever I go for records from now on. Great idea. Make the Paradox Whirl record at 38, I'll go for it again on video soon and I'll be shooting for 42 or more. Also, the Whirl record seems a little low, I did like 45 (I don't remember the exact number) whirls on the same side back in '91 or '92, on the Red Rocks stage, the day of finals for worlds that year, with witnesses including GFSmoothie. I'll burst that record someday soon when I am bored. Dallas club, thanks for keeping up the list. Y2K is the "Year 2 Kick" See ya! Scott Davidson Enlightener From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Wed Jul 28 23:26:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03959 for freestyle-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:26:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17773 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:28:53 -0700 Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23334 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:28:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Bradley Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA13203 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13199 for freestyle@footbag.org; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907281928.PAA13199@rac9.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] new adds system Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey hey seems some people's feathers are getting ruffled. or just plain ecstatic. Derrrick has been the liberal writer for all years i've been on the list. the abuse i used to give the guy was magnificent (: now for the 'fun' i had no intention of disrespecting JBoys construction of dexterity analysis. in itself it is brilliant and should be checked out and even utilitzed by anyone wanting to mroe accurately describe the difficulties of their dexterous moves. Steve, JBoy speaks fine for himself. If it seems like I disrespect him then i am very sorry. As for reading the archives, all of this has been said before My point still stands, and what i ask for in bringing up archives is that people realize they need to justify their statements about current systems if they are going to berate current systems. I wasn't the first one to bring up JBoys idea in terms of competitive freestyle, or add counting. And i don't think JBoy wants to count adds- though i would trust him to do it, and would encourage his system to be tested against worlds routines to see how it would have changed results. how about it JBoy- can i count on you to be an add counter if i help with freestyle stuff in the future? i promise you now you can use your system, so long as you use it consistently. (: Of course, steve will probably be in charge. Derric Scalf brought up a necessary point however. verification of specific dexterities could easily become an issue, and video verification woudl be the solution- and that is an extremely slow process. and for such a refined definition of difficulty as JBoys it woudl require multiple camera angles. But, as has been said, JBoys system is not intended to change worlds freestyle competitive format. It would be awesome to use it in a Shred format where video verification is used anyway. I have already been teaching the local stylers about the new idea. It is very well received. Great owrds all, love hearing from the whole gang, JBoy, Ahren, Derric, Derrick,Steve ( well...(: ) , Lon. any top eight freestylers have some voice? just one more thing. Tu is the man. l8r vince From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 00:15:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04320 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:15:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Market.NET (market.net [140.174.206.2]) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04317 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:15:39 -0700 Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23404 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:29:24 -0700 Received: from [216.111.252.227] (dhcp-216-111-252-227 [216.111.252.227]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00946 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907290315.UAA03869@email.footbag.org> References: <199907290315.UAA03869@email.footbag.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:22:12 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] new adds system Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Vince wrote: >My point still stands, and what i ask for in bringing up archives is that >people realize they need to justify their statements about current systems >if they are going to berate current systems. It's pretty obvious the 5 strangly additive categories that Reed, Kenny, and others came up with don't really do justice to what really makes the moves we hit today difficult. It's more (as Derric said) about how the player has to move his body around the bag to hit any particular move. >Of course, steve will probably be in charge. Actually, if possible, I never want to run freestyle again. I never really got to *play* at worlds -- it was very frustrating. The freestyle sport is my passion, yet I hardly actually got to do it. It's time for someone else to run freestyle. At least, until I'm too old and feeble to play. (Watch it. :-)) And of course those of you who assisted me at Worlds helped immensely -- so THANK YOU everyone who helped (especially Neil and Vince). >Derric Scalf brought up a necessary point however. >verification of specific dexterities could easily become an issue, and >video verification woudl be the solution- and that is an extremely slow >process. and for such a refined definition of difficulty as JBoys it >woudl require multiple camera angles. I think you missed my earlier comment on that, Vince. Whatever system we use, it's the *theory* for how to rank the moves, not something you do in practice each time you watch a trick (whether it's today's additive 5-element system, some modification of JBoy's DLS system, or Aaron de Glanville's system). In other words, we'd just use the DLS system to assign new difficulty scores to each move once -- from then on, we'd just use that number instead of the old add number. As a player in a competition, you still have to hit the move -- and it's still a judge's responsibility to recognize a move and decide whether or not it was hit ("the" is something we already have to judge in the additive 5-element system, so there's no difference, really). Remember, judges don't (and shouldn't) try to break down moves live (nor on videotape) and re-analyze them. Unless of course they're brand new moves and nobody knows how to judge them. But then, as I said in the judging tutorial at Worlds, one trick is rarely so important that it's worth stewing over. The human error potential is high enough (even in video review) that it just dwarfs the importance of that particular issue. A judge has to know the moves as he sees them -- if he can't tell a paradox torque from a barrage, then he can't judge difficulty or variety. (Period.) Knowing the First Principles that derive the difficulty score is simply not a solution -- he has to recognize each move. So, all DLS does is give us a theory for assigning difficulty scores to each move, and from then on it's expected that judges will memorize those scores. This is not such a complicated thing, either. Sure, if you forget a particular move's new score, you may need to ask someone (as today) or re-evaluate it from first principles. But if you can't recognize the move itself, even if you forget the add count, there's no way you're expected to analyze it on the fly (or on videotape). It's about how the player has to move to hit a given trick. So if the judge see the trick, the player must have moved that way. Else it's not the trick. This is how it has to be. >It would be awesome to use it in a Shred format where video verification >is used anyway. Just to drive my point home, no system we come up with for assigning difficulty numbers to tricks will be any no more or less amenable to video. They'd be identical to the current system in its implementation during judging. The only difference would be in the numbers themselves. E.g., in one system, torque would be 4 adds, where in another it may be 7 points. Obviously converting from one to the other will be hard, but at some point we will have to do it. So, the goal of this discussion is to try to come up with a worthwhile formula for assigning those difficulty scores so we capture the essense of why some tricks are so much harder than others, since the current system is cracking at the seams. Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 03:48:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA04530 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:48:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web1005.mail.yahoo.com ([128.11.23.95]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA26178 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:16:20 -0700 Message-ID: <19990729021615.7849.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [130.212.202.18] by web1005.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:16:15 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:16:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Ahren Gehrman Subject: [freestyle] :-) To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey guys, I played footbag today and it was really fun. How 'bout that? Ahren "the ex-boogyman" Gehrman From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 16:54:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05380 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:54:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f From: Ezra Kim Received: (from ezra_kim@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EGPAA7LU; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:14:02 EDT To: freestyle@email.footbag.org Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 01:16:13 -0700 Subject: [freestyle] a move Message-ID: <19990731.011614.19662.1.ezra_kim@juno.com> References: <199907282330.QAA03414@email.footbag.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-8 Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hi, i was wondering, there probably is a name for it.... - is there a move when you go into like a double-over down....but mid way through the dexes you switch directions, but still land in clip? kinda like a double over down bail to a whirl....my friend hit it once... is there a name for it? - --ez From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 17:35:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05432 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:35:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Message-ID: <19990729163937.9001.rocketmail@web201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.108.197.65] by web201.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:39:37 PDT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:39:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Cory Current Subject: [freestyle] New Sys & MUFFFFFFFFFFF To: freestyle@footbag.org Cc: dfogle@mlerf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey everyone, As much as I try not to get into these long, drawn-out discussions on adds and new judging systems, some real points came through yesterday that I just have to comment on. So.....strap yourselves in and get ready, here's my $0.02. You all need to go to the MUFF JAM!!!!! (how's that for advertising?) But seriously....... Steve Goldberg wrote: > And what I think is *hilarious* is how much we > deep-end on > discussions of places where the current add system > doesn't handle a > class of move (e.g., paradox) I think it's clear to most everyone that the current system needs some help. I'm not saying that everyone has their ways to make it better, but it definitely lacks. > We need to update our > system to represent > the types of moves players are hitting today that > they weren't > hitting many years ago when Reed and Kenny (and > whoever else?) came > up with the Holy Add System. (5 categories, my ass.) This statement pretty much sums up the whole argument. How can we expect the pre-historic current system to fulfill requirements for moves, theories, and categories that are being developed and perfected today, moves and ideas that weren't even around when the system was developed. think of it as technology. as we move forward with technological advances, we must also constantly update, change, and create new laws and governing institutions to accomodate the latest advances. Imagine the world today, if we lived and governed ourselves by laws that were made up in 1900. Think of it. Most things that affect us on a daily basis (ie, automobiles, computers, etc, etc) weren't even around or even thought about in 1900, so how could we expect those laws to fulfill our requirements today? > Everyone kind of agrees our add > system fails to > represent windows, plants, and complicated > dexterities. Jboy's system > comes very close to hitting the nail on the head. so I must apologize, I haven't read all of JBoy's system. I'll have to sift through the old mails and check it out. But I'll agree that we need a system to account for some of these 'newer' things. (windows, plants, and complicated dexterities, etc) Now, on to what I really have to say........ dfogle@mlerf.org (Derrick Fogle, MLERF) wrote: > >EVERYONE is welcome. Direct all hate mail to Derric > Fogle. Contacts are hey Derrick, consider this some hate mail to add to Ian's beating!!!! HaHa!! NEway, everyone should go that can make it. I went last year, and had a blast!!! Joey Marshal says he's gettin' realll nutty and wasted!!!! (and if you know Joey, when he gets nutty.....) Derrick also asked: > PS - who is it that has that "Chicken Strut" music I > was doing my clown act > to? I must get that music. Band and CD title, > please?!? That was mine, I used it for my Worlds routine in '97. I figured you'd appreciate it. So it's 'THE METERS', and the song is, 'Chicken Strut', aptly named. I've got it on either 'Best of the Meters', or 'Meters Greatest Hits'. One or the other, both CD's Kickass regardless!!! Check 'em out stylers, this is great, old-skool funk, real conducive to shreddin'!!! (for you Funk-nuts, check out Galactic, too) > I'm in MUFF (The club). If you're gonna be in > anything, wouldn't you > rather be in the MUFF? Dude, sign me up!! That's where I want to be. Cory From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 21:35:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05545 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:35:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990729182018.RIFJ22325.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org>; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:20:18 -0700 Message-ID: <37A09CD4.B3DE3997@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:26:28 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ezra Kim CC: freestyle@email.footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] a move References: <199907282330.QAA03414@email.footbag.org> <19990731.011614.19662.1.ezra_kim@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ezra Kim wrote: > is there a move when you go into like a double-over down....but mid way > through the dexes you switch directions, but still land in clip? > kinda like a double over down bail to a whirl....my friend hit it once... > is there a name for it? Oh yeah. I like that move. When you say double over down, I'm assuming you are setting from the toe of your dex foot. So, what you are doing is a fairy same side whirl. That is a crappy name, but it is the move. The only way to truly accentuate the dexes is to plant after the first dex. Otherwise, you would probably only get credit for the whirl part of it. Good move... now try a fairy same side drifter. Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 21:35:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05550 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:35:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09790 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:13:32 -0700 Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (root@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.146]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03875 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:13:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Bradley Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA01945 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rvbpaco@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01941 for freestyle@footbag.org; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907291813.OAA01941@rac6.wam.umd.edu> To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] missing the point Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org hey again. i am finally tired of this discussion as well. the point is its a great day out and i'd rather be kicking than be in my office. but, i want to clarify something- JBoys idea ascribes greater number of points to how complete a dexterity actually circles a bag. if i don't understand then please ignore what i say, and tell ME to read the archives. to me this system implies that while we may get more accurate or acceptable ranking of move difficulties in a dexterity focussed world, creating this emphasis will also create a greater scrutiny of each tricks actual execution. the term 'The' will expand its horizons. as an example, how i do a paradox whirl may affect the quality of my dexterity. nd how about the plane of the circle- what if my dexterity is oblique and not perpendicular to the bag's horizon? i agree a list of evaluated difficulty per move would be valuable to get people to stop questioning an ADs system that is believed to describe difficulty when it doesn't, but i question the value of a system that while creating a list also creates more ways in which a move can be questionably hit. essentially, the more math you apply to this art, the more apparent the fundamently subjective aspect of simple 'freestyle' will become obvious. and important. how i do my dexterities will become more important, and that is an aspect of my style. l8r- go out and kick. vince From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 21:52:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05583 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:52:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from Market.NET (market.net [140.174.206.2]) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05580 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:52:23 -0700 Received: from spectre.atext.com (spectre.atext.com [204.62.245.27]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12464 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:06:05 -0700 Received: from [216.111.252.140] (dhcp-216-111-252-140 [216.111.252.140]) by spectre.atext.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00294 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brat@market.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907291813.OAA01941@rac6.wam.umd.edu> References: <199907291813.OAA01941@rac6.wam.umd.edu> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:08:38 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: [freestyle] missing the point Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org At 2:13 PM -0400 7/29/99, Vince Bradley wrote: >hey again. Vince, (and everyone), if you keep changing the subject line, it makes it hard for people reading after the fact to figure out which messages are part of which threads. Subject is usually used to track a given thread. So your most recent post (to which I'm replying) would probably have been better titled "Subject: Re: [freestyle] new adds system". >but, i want to clarify something- >JBoys idea ascribes greater number of points to how complete a dexterity >actually circles a bag. I'm glad you're saying this because it explains that we still have a communication problem. I'm not assigning blame, just stating fact. The problem is this: sure, the DLS system changes the way you interpret the dexterities in a move (by design -- it's a whole new system). But it doesn't change the way you *see* a move. It doesn't change the *names* for the moves. It doesn't change how you *hit* a move. It doesn't change the various *ways* you might hit a move. All it changes is the *point value* of a move. The point value is a *static* value, never changing, for any given move. A paradox torque is a paradox torque -- whether you *hit* it or not is for a judge to judge. But if you *do* hit a paradox torque you get whatever number has been previously, permanently, and statically assigned according to the reasoning given in whatever theory-du-jour you're using to assign difficulty points. In this case, the DLS theory. But it's no different for the additive 5-category theory. >to me this system implies that while we may get more accurate or acceptable >ranking of move difficulties in a dexterity focussed world, creating >this emphasis will also create a greater scrutiny of each tricks actual >execution. Hopefully the above explains why I strongly disagree with this assertion. >the term 'The' will expand its horizons. Not true. Either you *hit* a trick or not. "The" means "you didn't hit the trick you tried to hit". This is a rathole, because we never really go into much detail in the *current* judging system about what discretion the judges have when it comes to "the" tricks, and how you compute the "real" difficulty of a "the". So I don't think it's particularly germaine to deep-end on this point until we've resolved the higher-level issues with the proposal. What I'd *really* like feedback on is what people think about the ability of the DLS proposal Jboy made to accurately reflect difficulty. We can (and *should*) debate how we would modify the judging system to implement it *later*. But until we have a solid model for difficulty, I think it's too hard to resolve anything. (This is why most people are already frustrated with the discussion.) So, the proposal is on the table for a new way to compute difficulty. Let's discuss *that*, please. Once people seem comfortable with the system (or if we figure out it doesn't suffice and reject it on those grounds), we can move on to Phase II -- how would we change the judging system to accommodate it. >essentially, the more math you apply to this art, the more apparent >the fundamently subjective aspect of simple 'freestyle' will become obvious. >and important. This is about theories of complexity that enable codifying difficulty in a numerical system. It is necessary and easily separable from the rest of it. If you don't think assessing difficulty is a technical (and mathematical) discipline, then that's fine. >how i do my dexterities will become more important Simply not true. That is not part of the DLS proposal at all. Thanks for listening. Steve From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Thu Jul 29 22:56:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05628 for freestyle-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:56:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12934 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:48:30 -0700 Received: from dallasfootbag.org ([24.7.100.246]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990729214828.TSZV22325.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@dallasfootbag.org> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:48:28 -0700 Message-ID: <37A0CDA1.FC765A34@dallasfootbag.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:54:41 -0500 From: Derric Scalf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Ok. I'm tired of hearing people talk about IF we need another judging system. If we truly want to assign a value for the difficulty of a trick, then YES we do need a new system. Whether we use a new system in competition or not is another story. Right now, the point that Jboy and I are making is that it would be nice to have a way to measure a trick's difficulty. Now, on to his theory... > My first idea is that we throw away dexes altogether and have a new > way of rating the circling of the footbag. What I propose is that > we draw an imaginary horizontal line through the footbag, such that > it is extending forward and backward along the direction the player > is facing. Let's call this the "dex line". In other words, if the > bag is on your right side (say, from a left-foot clipper set), the dex > line would extend forward from the bag and backwards along the right > side of your body. You are talking about a line that extends forward and backward from the bag. This line is parallel to the ground and is drawn at the time of the set? Or is it a more like a plane that is perpendicular to the ground (as in a horizontal line drawn for each point in the bag's motion)? > So, here's how difficulty would be assessed using the dex line system: > (1) Any time the player's leg crosses the dex line on the underneath > side of the bag, the player is awarded one point. This is where I get confused. How can the player's leg cross a line that extends forward and backward from the bag on the 'underneath' side of the bag? How about an example... Are you talking about a pdx mirage type of thing where the leg first goes under the bag before it goes over? > (2) Any time the player's leg crosses the dex line on the top side of > the bag, he is awarded two points. Again, how does this work out? I'm thinking that both a mirage and a butterfly involve a leg going over the bag, right? And an ATW also goes over, right? A double ATW goes over twice and under once? Let me know if I'm missing things here. > (3) One extra pont is awarded for each time a different leg crosses it > topside in the same move (excluding "complimentary dexes" as described > previously by Aaron de Glanville, whereby two legs crossing the > dex line are going in exactly the same direction, e.g., "double legover" > and "ripwalk"). > (4) One extra point is awarded if the leg crosses topside while > spinning (torque, gyro mirage). > (5) Any time the player's leg crosses the dex line topside while there > is no plant on the other leg, he/she recieves a bonus point (symposium). > A list of moves and their dex line ratings: > (clipper) toe>op clip del = 2 > (clipper) toe>same clip del = 3 > (butterfly) toe>op out dex>op clip del = 4 > (legover) toe>op out dex>same toe del = 3 > (atw) toe>same in dex>same toe del = 3 > (mirage) toe>op in dex>op toe del = 4 > (double legover) toe>op in dex>op out dex>same toe del = 6 > (paradon) toe>op out dex>same out dex>op clip del = 7 > (toe blur) toe>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 8 > (paradox mirage) clip>same in dex>op toe del = 5 > (blur) clip>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 7 > (torque) clip>op in dex>(front spin)>op clip del = 6 > (gyro mirage) clip>(back spin)>same in dex>op toe del = 5 > (gyro pdx mirage) clip>(back spin)>op in dex>op toe del = 6 > (ripwalk) = 6 > (blurriest) = 8 > (pdx torque) = 7 > (atom smasher) = 8 Could you please give some examples as to how you came about these point values? It seems that it works out pretty well, but when I try to apply my understanding of your system to these moves, I don't get the same numbers. Explanations would be great. Later. -Derric From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 07:00:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06072 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:00:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16374 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:40:46 -0700 Received: from hh1114112 ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA27066 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:39:23 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990729214003.00990200@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:40:38 -0700 To: freestyle@footbag.org From: Matt Avery Subject: Re: [freestyle] new adds system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Fellow shredders, I wanted to get my coins in on this subject, as it unfolds into (probably) one of the greatest debates every encountered on this list. No, I have not read any archives, and should not need to when I make the following points. Number one: NONE of us would be here today, with the skill we have obtained, if we did not remotely like the first, and second, and third time in which we kicked a footbag. You knew NOTHING about add system, paradoxes or symposiums- you knew that you were having fun. It doesn't take a genius to see that Jboy's system will more accurately define the difficulty of the new (and old) lineup of moves so many freestylers are beginning to hit. It is true that in this point of time, as new moves are developing at a rapid pace, we should have an *accurate* system to follow when rating a move. It only takes a month or so for someone new in freestyle to begin to hit 2 add moves. When they do, they start to see, in the far distance, that a mirage is somewhat harder than a legover. There must be a flaw in the system. The sport of freestyle can be improved on in many ways- things that have been already improved may have the opportunity to be improved once again. When looked at from a distance, this issue is defined by the individual. Some shredders focus clearly on skill: developing their own style. Others may look at the other end of freestyle: Can I go guiltless? maybe even trippless? - Focusing strictly on a number that is *supposed* to rate its difficulty. I clearly remember on the tricks of the trade video, and when introducing each move it states something like "Difficulty rating: 2 adds." Someone who is brought up into the sport and learns from the tricks of the trade video will most definitely focus on the add value of a move, less than its style and grace. It all comes down to that point: are you more interested in developing smooth moves with style, or worrying about a tripless string gone bad after an atom smasher. The issue of rating moves should only be important When rating a player at a competition level. That system should not be taken outside of the building that houses the stage on which we compete. I pity those who shred and cannot fully enjoy the experience without being able to say they sealed a new move...*of higher add value*. I know very well that there will be other opinions, and I welcome them. -Matt Avery From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 07:00:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06077 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:00:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from dept.english.upenn.edu (DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.75.246]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16219 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:30:45 -0700 Received: (from sunilj@localhost) by dept.english.upenn.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id VAA70288; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:30:42 -0400 From: sunilj@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sunil Jani) Message-Id: <199907300130.VAA70288@dept.english.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: [freestyle] missing the point (again)... To: rvbpaco@wam.umd.edu (Vince Bradley) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <199907291813.OAA01941@rac6.wam.umd.edu> from "Vince Bradley" at Jul 29, 99 02:13:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org According to Vince Bradley: > > but, i want to clarify something- > JBoys idea ascribes greater number of points to how complete a dexterity > actually circles a bag. > > to me this system implies that while we may get more accurate or acceptable > ranking of move difficulties in a dexterity focussed world, creating > this emphasis will also create a greater scrutiny of each tricks actual > execution. > > the term 'The' will expand its horizons. > as an example, how i do a paradox whirl may affect the quality of my dexterity. > nd how about the plane of the circle- what if my dexterity is oblique and > not perpendicular to the bag's horizon? > I know what you are talking about... if there are say, three checkpoints where you can be scored on a move, you can clean and "the" any combination of them. Complicated. Some moves that are impossible to "the" (like butterfly or something) will be able to be the'd with this new system. This will just put newer constraints on how we must do moves and further contsrict the "free" and the "style" in freestyle. A new, more accurate system would be nice, but I do not think DLS is it. It seems we would just be trading some exceptions in for others (example: toe blizzard is harder to execute (or at least just as hard) than toe blur, but toe blur gets and extra add since its dexes are "noncomlimentary"? Crap. Same thing with blizzard and blur - blur would get an extra point. More crap. These loopholes are larger than the ones we have in the current add system. Crap, crap, trash.) > essentially, the more math you apply to this art, the more apparent > the fundamently subjective aspect of simple 'freestyle' will become obvious. > and important. Vince is a wise jedi indeed. All you can eat chicken wings? I am there man, SJ From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 07:01:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06088 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:01:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from web218.mail.yahoo.com (web218.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.118]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA16708 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:03:59 -0700 Message-ID: <19990730020232.2411.rocketmail@web218.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.31.189.203] by web218.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:02:32 PDT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:02:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Vern DeHaven Subject: re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System To: freestyle@footbag.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey all, I like this system A LOT. It's relatively straightforward once a few minutes are spent counting some moves. I like the fact that it removes all argument over a move receiving the paradox add. I can't count 6 for a torque, though. How did you get that, Jboy? One thing. If I'm missing something, please tell me, but aren't unusual surfaces left out? Minor point, maybe, but it's still important for the sake of variety, right? Vern === Gravity is a wonderful bend of time. Just ask someone who shreds. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 07:01:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06089 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:01:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from postoffice2.direcpc.com (mail.direcpc.com [198.77.116.30]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16431 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:46:18 -0700 Received: from hh1114112 ([206.71.114.112]) by postoffice2.direcpc.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-45425U50000L50000S0) with SMTP id AAA27247; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:46:17 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990729213939.009899a0@mail.direcpc.com> X-Sender: mavery@mail.direcpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:47:33 -0700 To: Derric Scalf From: Matt Avery Subject: re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Cc: freestyle@footbag.org In-Reply-To: <37A0CDA1.FC765A34@dallasfootbag.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org >> (clipper) toe>op clip del = 2 >> (clipper) toe>same clip del = 3 >> (butterfly) toe>op out dex>op clip del = 4 >> (legover) toe>op out dex>same toe del = 3 >> (atw) toe>same in dex>same toe del = 3 >> (mirage) toe>op in dex>op toe del = 4 >> (double legover) toe>op in dex>op out dex>same toe del = 6 >> (paradon) toe>op out dex>same out dex>op clip del = 7 >> (toe blur) toe>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 8 >> (paradox mirage) clip>same in dex>op toe del = 5 >> (blur) clip>op in dex>op in dex>op toe del = 7 >> (torque) clip>op in dex>(front spin)>op clip del = 6 >> (gyro mirage) clip>(back spin)>same in dex>op toe del = 5 >> (gyro pdx mirage) clip>(back spin)>op in dex>op toe del = 6 >> (ripwalk) = 6 >> (blurriest) = 8 >> (pdx torque) = 7 >> (atom smasher) = 8 I dont think the numbers really speak for difficulty more than the currect add sytem does. Can anyone say that: 1) A ripwalk is as hard as a double legover 2) A paradon is as hard is a Blur. (already stated in the current system) 3) A torque is nearly as difficult as a *SPINNING* paradox mirage. (I have been brought up to think that in order the be gyro, the first dex of the move is IN>OUT and is made by the set leg. Hence, gyro drifter and gyro torque (vortex and mobius). Otherwise, you are talking spinning) If I am wrong, please correct me Matt Avery From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 18:22:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06647 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:22:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law-f279.hotmail.com [209.185.130.195]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA26716 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:07:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 78455 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jul 1999 13:07:12 -0000 Message-ID: <19990730130712.78454.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.251.32.212 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:07:11 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.251.32.212] From: "alex ibardaloza" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: [freestyle] Re: spinin' off toe Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:07:11 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org W'sup, >From: "Stuart Smith" Have you actually >hit toe set mobius? That is fucking hard, I've tried it and I can't do it >even though I'm great at mobius. >Glad you're fascinated to know what my toe spins look like. >Forever Shreder ShredOnLawnLON I've only hit it once and didn't hit any thing out of it, must have been a fluke. It's hell on my back though. Later, ZEKE From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 18:22:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06681 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:22:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from coins0.coin.missouri.edu (jriely@coins0.coin.missouri.edu [198.209.253.1]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28141 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:04:20 -0700 Received: (from jriely@localhost) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA18229; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:04:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:04:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeremiah J. Riely" X-Sender: jriely@coins0.coin.missouri.edu Reply-To: "Jeremiah J. Riely" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] missing the point (again)... In-Reply-To: <199907300130.VAA70288@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org > This will just put newer constraints on how we must do moves and > further contsrict the "free" and the "style" in freestyle. I think that everyone is getting the wrong idea about what the dls system is supposed to do. The way I interpretted it the first time I read it, I thought it was just an alternative for the add system. It is not supposed to change the way moves are hit. The moves stay exactly the same. In fact, in this system (same as the add system) you can't make a move a different vaule by changing the way it is performed. (unless it is `the', although now that I think about it, I guess a move could be half `the', like a whirl where where the dex isn't completed before the contact is made, this could be another benefit of the system but I don't know if it is supposed to take in to account `theness'. Joby's message didn't say anything about it) Anyway, All the dls is is a way to rank the difficulty of present moves. It shouldn't change the way moves are hit or hinder anyone's style. Steve has already made this point a few times and I thought I would save him writing another reply. :) If the system is adopted, the moves people do may change. I know people say that they don't care about adds or any system, but I think presently that adds infulence the moves people do in their strings heavely. Here is an example: A lot of players are guiltless right, and that effects the moves they do. (this is not my example, but it is another) People now say they don't care about adds, but in my opinion all players are infulenced by adds a lot. I have heard people say they just try to push their own limits, and being guiltless is a way to do that. Well, after going guiltless the next logical step would be to cut out the easy 3 add moves, especailly butterfly and osis. I don't see people doing this though. The reason? Because people are guiltless, and that means that any 3 add move is ok. That is just some of my thoughts. I hope it is coherient, if not it is probably because It is 9:42 and I'm still up after working a 12 hour graveyard shift. :) And if I'm blatenly wrong about something, sorry, I don't know much. All I have to go on is reading this list and the few freestylers I know. I've never been to a tournament or anything. Later, and I hope to meet lots of people at the MUFF jam. From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 18:27:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06696 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:27:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f216.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.216]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA30144 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:35:50 -0700 Received: (qmail 73444 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jul 1999 17:35:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19990730173511.73443.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.206.120.62 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:35:11 PDT X-Originating-IP: [128.206.120.62] From: "Ian Dubman" To: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] missing the point (again)... Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:35:11 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org I am trying my best to read every post from everyone, and still keep myself from entering the arguement until I feel my decision would be an educated one. Derric is bringing the questions that need to be answered to light--I KNOW that much. But, I must agree with Sunil on the following... >A new, more accurate system would be nice, but I do not think DLS is it. >It seems we would just be trading some exceptions in for others (example: >toe blizzard is harder to execute (or at least just as hard) than toe >blur, but toe blur gets and extra add since its dexes are >"noncomlimentary"? Crap. Same thing with blizzard and blur - blur would >get an extra point. More crap. These loopholes are larger than the ones >we have in the current add system. Crap, crap, trash.) Those statements are money. Period. I think he was actually correct in the first part by stating blizzard(toe or otherwise) is more difficult than blur. Same goes for atom smasher being higher point(?) value than blurriest(discussed in our shred session yesterday). I do not agree, but, as I said, I will argue this points later--with an informed opinion only. Right now, I am mearly stating a fact. >All you can eat chicken wings? I am there man, Did I miss something?? The only chcken I know is a MUFF Jammer. Aren't we all though?? Come jam with us... you know the contacts, but... one last time... Joe Marschall 573-443-7144 Ian Dubman 573-442-5684 TOO LATE FOR E-MAIL, SORRY. Scalf. I will get back to you on that message later. Sorry you can't make it :( Maybe next year? You had better. I should be in Dallas again, and you will owe me. ;-) From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 19:12:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06775 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:12:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from saba.wwa.com (saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30763 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:23:21 -0700 Received: from [209.107.90.78] (209-107-90-078.chicago.verio.net [209.107.90.78]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA10389; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:23:02 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990730173511.73443.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:28:49 -0600 To: "Ian Dubman" , freestyle@footbag.org From: "Scott Davidson" Subject: Re: [freestyle] missing the point (again)... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi freestylers! >>A new, more accurate system would be nice, but I do not think DLS is it. Why not call the new system, "madds" (Modified Adds), thats what it is, after all, maddening. I think it would be useful for differentiating between tricks in a shred format that is more like diving where players proclaim the "string/trick" they are attempting, and the judges would judge based on specific criteria, and give a 1-10 score as the string/trick is hit and that is multiplied (or whatever they do in diving) by the difficulty (MADD) score for a total. Cumulative score, multiple rounds. I don't think DLS/MADDS is quite ready for prime time and use at existing events like worlds style scoring. Certainly it could be used (with lots of refinements) in a shred-style contest. I personally really really really really don't like the system that was used in the shred contest at worlds, it is simply too hard to judge it. There are many systems that can give instant results and we should be migrating towards something like that. I am personally going back and studying the SJ (sunil jani) method of freestyle (heavy on the frontside) so I can round out my game. I personally need to relearn some of the twos and threes from my front side that I have ignored (pixies, fairies, legbeaters and such), then I will combine those moves with the paradox's and symposiums to make tripless moves that I can use in my strings. People who knock tripless play, are looking from the outside in. Once you try it, there is little reason to go back... just increased reason to round out your game and push the edge even further. Diving's judging system is one of the most stable and unchanged systems over the years. Looking at them is a good place to start. They have many variables that they combine into single dives, very similar to us. >>It seems we would just be trading some exceptions in for others (example: >>toe blizzard is harder to execute (or at least just as hard) than toe >>blur, but toe blur gets and extra add since its dexes are >>"noncomlimentary"? Crap. Same thing with blizzard and blur - blur would >>get an extra point. More crap. These loopholes are larger than the ones >>we have in the current add system. Crap, crap, trash.) > >Those statements are money. Period. I think he was actually correct in the >first part by stating blizzard(toe or otherwise) is more difficult than >blur. Same goes for atom smasher being higher point(?) value than >blurriest(discussed in our shred session yesterday). I do not agree, but, >as I said, I will argue this points later--with an informed opinion only. >Right now, I am mearly stating a fact. > Whoever said that ripwalk is the same difficulty as double leg over is trippin'. Have they tried ripwalk? Have they tried double leg over? There is at least twice the energy output to complete a ripwalk as a double legover. There is no comparison. And whoever said blizzard is harder than blur is nuts. They are identical difficulties. I do both on both sides and they feel identical to me. Is that a biased statement? Yes. I skool those frequently. Someone who can't do a paradox mirage, will look at both of them and say they are difficult. Someone who finds that para mirage is easier than para reverse mirage, will undoubtedly find that blur is easier than blizzard, and another person might be the other way around. So if we come up with a canonical list of values for moves, we had better be careful what values we assign to them and why. This brings me to the ultimate point that noone seems to want to address... If you skool something hard enough, and master it, then it becomes easy to you. What is easy to me, is not necessarily easy to you and vice versa. So the people who are defining the values of the new moves need to be very careful not to prejudice the values to their styles. And that brings me full circle to Derricks initial assertion that freestyle is just that... freestyle. What is hard for me might be easy for you, and for you to say "oh, that's nothing compared to an atom smasher" is as subjective as subjective gets. Keep freestyle free. Gotta go shred. Shred on brothers and sistas! (Chicagoan's, see ya at the Kicnic in Mt. Prospect this Sunday!) See ya! Scott Davidson From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 19:20:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06787 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:20:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from saba.wwa.com (saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30763 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:23:21 -0700 Received: from [209.107.90.78] (209-107-90-078.chicago.verio.net [209.107.90.78]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA10389; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:23:02 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: copyset@pop.interaccess.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990730173511.73443.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:28:49 -0600 To: "Ian Dubman" , freestyle@footbag.org From: "Scott Davidson" Subject: Re: [freestyle] missing the point (again)... Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hi freestylers! >>A new, more accurate system would be nice, but I do not think DLS is it. Why not call the new system, "madds" (Modified Adds), thats what it is, after all, maddening. I think it would be useful for differentiating between tricks in a shred format that is more like diving where players proclaim the "string/trick" they are attempting, and the judges would judge based on specific criteria, and give a 1-10 score as the string/trick is hit and that is multiplied (or whatever they do in diving) by the difficulty (MADD) score for a total. Cumulative score, multiple rounds. I don't think DLS/MADDS is quite ready for prime time and use at existing events like worlds style scoring. Certainly it could be used (with lots of refinements) in a shred-style contest. I personally really really really really don't like the system that was used in the shred contest at worlds, it is simply too hard to judge it. There are many systems that can give instant results and we should be migrating towards something like that. I am personally going back and studying the SJ (sunil jani) method of freestyle (heavy on the frontside) so I can round out my game. I personally need to relearn some of the twos and threes from my front side that I have ignored (pixies, fairies, legbeaters and such), then I will combine those moves with the paradox's and symposiums to make tripless moves that I can use in my strings. People who knock tripless play, are looking from the outside in. Once you try it, there is little reason to go back... just increased reason to round out your game and push the edge even further. Diving's judging system is one of the most stable and unchanged systems over the years. Looking at them is a good place to start. They have many variables that they combine into single dives, very similar to us. >>It seems we would just be trading some exceptions in for others (example: >>toe blizzard is harder to execute (or at least just as hard) than toe >>blur, but toe blur gets and extra add since its dexes are >>"noncomlimentary"? Crap. Same thing with blizzard and blur - blur would >>get an extra point. More crap. These loopholes are larger than the ones >>we have in the current add system. Crap, crap, trash.) > >Those statements are money. Period. I think he was actually correct in the >first part by stating blizzard(toe or otherwise) is more difficult than >blur. Same goes for atom smasher being higher point(?) value than >blurriest(discussed in our shred session yesterday). I do not agree, but, >as I said, I will argue this points later--with an informed opinion only. >Right now, I am mearly stating a fact. > Whoever said that ripwalk is the same difficulty as double leg over is trippin'. Have they tried ripwalk? Have they tried double leg over? There is at least twice the energy output to complete a ripwalk as a double legover. There is no comparison. And whoever said blizzard is harder than blur is nuts. They are identical difficulties. I do both on both sides and they feel identical to me. Is that a biased statement? Yes. I skool those frequently. Someone who can't do a paradox mirage, will look at both of them and say they are difficult. Someone who finds that para mirage is easier than para reverse mirage, will undoubtedly find that blur is easier than blizzard, and another person might be the other way around. So if we come up with a canonical list of values for moves, we had better be careful what values we assign to them and why. This brings me to the ultimate point that noone seems to want to address... If you skool something hard enough, and master it, then it becomes easy to you. What is easy to me, is not necessarily easy to you and vice versa. So the people who are defining the values of the new moves need to be very careful not to prejudice the values to their styles. And that brings me full circle to Derricks initial assertion that freestyle is just that... freestyle. What is hard for me might be easy for you, and for you to say "oh, that's nothing compared to an atom smasher" is as subjective as subjective gets. Keep freestyle free. Gotta go shred. Shred on brothers and sistas! (Chicagoan's, see ya at the Kicnic in Mt. Prospect this Sunday!) See ya! Scott Davidson From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 19:48:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06930 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:48:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f19.hotmail.com [207.82.250.30]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA31326 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:53:06 -0700 Received: (qmail 3228 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jul 1999 18:52:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19990730185232.3227.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.204.49 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:52:31 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.204.49] From: "KeN Somolinos" To: mavery@direcpc.com, derric@dallasfootbag.org Cc: freestyle@footbag.org Subject: re: [freestyle] DLS - Dex Line System Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:52:31 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hey Matt and stylers. Matt Avery wrote: (I have >been brought up to think that in order the be gyro, the first dex of the >move is IN>OUT and is made by the set leg. Hence, gyro drifter and gyro >torque (vortex and mobius). Otherwise, you are talking spinning) > >If I am wrong, please correct me > Actually, the direction of the dex doesn't matter. At the end of Rye Shred Red hits a gyro eggbeater, where the setting leg does the first dex, but it is OUT-IN. Red also once hit a gyro flux, which is another move with an OUT-IN gyro dex. For a move to be gyro, the set leg has to perform the first dexterity after you've spun away from the set. Whether you plant or not is a question of personal balance and style, and the direction of the dex changes the move but not the fact that it is gyro. Happy trails. Ken CF Somolinos nyfa From owner-freestyle@email.footbag.org Fri Jul 30 20:15:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by email.footbag.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA06971 for freestyle-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:15:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: email.footbag.org: majordom set sender to owner-freestyle@footbag.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f257.hotmail.com [207.82.251.148]) by Market.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA31989 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:28:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 57449 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jul 1999 19:27:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19990730192749.57448.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.204.49 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:27:47 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.204.49] From: "KeN Somolinos" To: enlightener@footbag.org, mufreestyle@hotmail.com, freestyle@footbag.org Subject: Re: [freestyle] missing the point (again)... Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:27:47 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freestyle@footbag.org Hello everybody. Scott Davidson wrote: >I am personally going back and studying the SJ (sunil jani) method of >freestyle (heavy on the frontside) so I can round out my game. I >personally need to relearn some of the twos and threes from my front side >that I have ignored (pixies, fairies, legbeaters and such), then I will >combine those moves with the paradox's and symposiums to make tripless >moves that I can use in my strings. People who knock tripless play, are >looking from the outside in. Once you try it, there is little reason to go >back... just increased reason to round out your game and push the edge even >further. > OK, first off, good luck combining front side moves with paradoxes. My main issue though is with this triplessness concept. Do you advocate triplessness because it looks better, or because it is harder? Just because a move has more adds does not make it harder or better looking. I think ripwalk is harder and looks better than a da da curve, but a da da curve is essentially a symposium ripwalk, and contains one more add. I also feel that symposium toe set blur doesn't look better or is harder to hit than regular toe set blur. Finally, tell me that fairy reverse mirage to reverse eggbeater, to atomic dragon to inspinning dragon to dragon set nuclear leg over is any less hein than half of the tripless combos being hit out there. Tilt and guilt are useful ways to get novices and intermediates to push their games, but I am sorry to say that I just don't see triplessness in the same light. There are too many three add moves out there which are harder and more stylish than many 4 add moves, that it makes little sense to me to just do fours. Seeing how long you can go tripless while maintaining variety can be fun every now and then, but as a permanent style of play it can be boring and limiting. Once again, ADDs don't equal difficulty or style. Do moves that challenge you or look cool, but please don't let adds stifle style. Ken CF Somolinos nyfa